Everyday Systems

[JWL]

First, glad to see a phpbb system for everyday systems.

I'm still working up to shovelglove. It's quite a strenuous workout! And I'm a big, strong guy who's been going to the gym off-and-on for several years. The problem is in getting my arm/shoulder muscles used to the shovelglove exertion several days in a row. My first day with my shovelglove, I did lots of freestyling and my right shoulder was hurting afterwards, not in a strained-muscled kind of way, but in a stretched-connective-tissue kind of way. So I wanted to take it easy and give the shoulder a chance to heal, which it has done by now. My shoulder is back to 100%.

My first week, I did shovelglove twice. The first day was freestyle where I was a bit too much of a "spastic maniac" and hurt my shoulder; several days later I went through the shovelglove routine (the 21-14-7 routine recommended for beginners) once. That was hard.

This week, I did Monday and Tuesday, rested Wednesday, and did Thursday and will do today (Friday) before I rest for the weekend. The idea here is to get my muscles used to working on consecutive days.

Then next week, I hope to do all 5 days in a row. I think I'll be able to do it.

I absolutely love shovelglove! What a great concept and exercise. I feel very good, and very strong, when I'm done.
_________________
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net

[reinhard]

James, that is an inspired avatar. I need to poke around and find something better for myself.

Judging from recent posts, I really need to emphasize "don't overdo it" more. I tend to forget how slowly and unsystematically I started way back when. It's just too fun.. the temptation to be a spastic maniac can be overwhelming. Glad to hear you are toughing it out by taking it easier. I think once you have a few weeks under your belt and your body learns its limits, you'll have fewer (if any) such incidents.
_________________
Reinhard

[gratefuldeb67]

Hey James!
Glad you are still having fun swinging your sledge... Sorry about your shoulder thing... Sounds like a little tendonitis... Probably due to
"Spastic maniac" moves, like you said..
I should be joining yers all again next week...
By the way, are you sure you aren't somehow related to Henry VIII?
That pic of you is way cool!
Peace,
Deb

[JWL]

[JWL]

OK, an update. I did shovelglove yesterday and I'm about to do it again today. I'm also still going to the gym twice per week, and I went yesterday. My body is sore ... muscular sore ... but in a good way. I want to get my body used to doing this work, shovelglove 5 days/week, and the gym. I feel strong, and good.

I'm also thinking about the longterm benefits of shovelglove. I imagine that eventually I'll get to a point where I cease going to the gym, shovelglove should be plenty of strenuous exercise.

I'm conscious of not overdoing it, and sticking to the recommended 14 minutes a day. But my mindset is to always do AT LEAST 14 minutes a day, but if I feel like doing more, nothing should stop me.
_________________
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net

[reinhard]

James, I'm happy to hear "good sore" is predominating over the other kind!

I think it's awesome that you're so hard core, but I have to caution you that back in the early days when I got overenthusiastic and went beyond 14 minutes, my autonomous-excuse-system inevitably seized on that excess as grounds to skip a day later in the week. I don't want to discourage you, just a caution.

[snazzybabe]

Just a quick question regarding doing the shovelglove routine 5 days in a row. This exercise is a muscle building exercise so is it okay to do the routine 5 days in a row because we are told that muscle needs to heal so it can grow and the way to make that happen is to have rest days in between? Does that only apply to weight-lifting? I'm an absolute novice who just joined. I wanted something to do at home other than the gym. I'm one of a large percentage of women who have flabby triceps and was hoping shovelglove would help tone me up.

[reinhard]

Welcome, snazzybabe. I've heard that too about it being better to give muscles a day off in between but here's why I do five in a row anyway:

1) Pre-agribusiness farmers worked much harder than this and didn't take every other day off. If anything, they took less time off.

2) These aren't the contrived moves of the gym. I wouldn't even call it pure strength training. It's something in between strength and aerobic exercise. "Take the next day off" might apply to gym lifting, but not (necessarily) to this.

3) Theory is fine, but none of the above would mean anything to me if I hadn't been doing this for over three years without any ill effects. And I know that if I had a more complex schedule, I just wouldn't do it. The weekday/weekend division is so natural, so unambiguous, so excuse-proof. I'm not going to trade those great advantages for some dubious locker room wisdom.

That being said: do not kill yourself if five days isn't for you. Do not feel that you need to start with five days (I didn't, simply because shovelglove didn't appear to me all at once in a vision but over weeks of experimentation). And do not feel that you have to work an equally hard 14 minutes each day. Just standing around with the sledgehammer in your hand for 14 minutes would be fine for self discipline purposes. The chief point of the 5 days is not that it's more hard core than 4 or 3, but that it is habitually sustainable.

Do remember, if anything hurts, stop immediately and take the next day off. That isn't wimping out, that's true discipline. And the better you are about it up front, the less often you'll have to resort to it later.

Best of luck, however many days you decide to do. And keep us posted.

[snazzybabe]

Thanks for that. I'll work my way up to 5 days. I'll do anything do get some definition back into these arms!!

[Kevin]

Oh, you'll tone up. Pay particular attention to hoist the sack motion if you are worried about your triceps. My arms have gotten bigger, but mostly the've gotten way, way more defined.

If you are worried about working five days in a row, add some squats every other day (unweighted squats, with your heels off the ground are a miraculous exercise IMHO). and do different SG exercises on alternate days.
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[snazzybabe]

Thanks. Sounds like a good idea to do it every other day. I can't wait to go sleeveless this summer so I can show off my well defined arms (instead of hiding them away like I usually do because the triceps are flabby). Now to read up on how to do the SG moves.

[Ariel King]

Thanks for the tip on the squats, Kevin. I've actually been doing them (while holding the SG for a little extra weight) as part of my SG routine all along, but never thought of doing it on my toes. It's nice to hear that they're such an effective exercise, bc I kinda hate them and need the motivation But it seems to hold true for me: they've made a noticeable difference in my thigh muscles already, even though I've never managed to do more than 60 in a single workout (usually less).

I've tried to think of a "useful movement" meaning for the squats, but all I come up with are vulgar things that make me giggle (like taking a poo in the field, or having a baby the no-frills way).

[reinhard]

"fertilize the crops"

Snazzy babe, one last reminder: take it real slow to start out. You won't feel just how hard it is till the next day.

[Ariel King]

"fertilize the crops" ROFLMAO

Snazzybabe, I second what Reinhard said. And mine is the voice of hard experience: the first time I did SG, on March 4 of this year, I managed to overdo it so badly (in just 14 minutes) that I couldn't do it again until the 15th. My arms were so stiff I couldn't fully straighten them, and one even swelled up for awhile. Fortunately I've never read of anyone else messing up quite this badly, but it's always a possibility for the extra out-of-shape types.

[Kevin]

Well, I always called them "pick up the pieces", like I was picking up pieces of wood or stone... to emphasize the work analog and stay away from the scatological aspect.

Anyway, IMHO, the on-the-toes thing makes the squats much easier on your knees. I go all the way down till I'm sitting on my ankles, on my toes, then go to flat feet at the top. I like to do 100 in two sets of 50 to start off and finish off a shovelglove shift. Many functional strength trainers called these Hindu squats after the Indian strong men that used to perform them by the hundreds.

By the way, I wouldn't go to every other day: I'd work every day, just alternate the exercises if need be. I skip a day when I'm all over sore. Of course, being 46, that happens more frequently than I'd like.
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[snazzybabe]

Thanks for all the tips guys. Just want to know from those that have been doing it for atleast 3 months if they have seen any improvement in their definition. What about the girls - is it working to shape the arms and are most girls using the 8 pounder?

[Ariel King]

Snazzybabe, I use an 8 pounder (though my bathroom scale says it's actually 10) and have been doing it for about 2.5 months (had to take 2 weeks off last month). Also, with the exception of this month, I haven't managed to consistently do it 5 times a week. But with those disclaimers out of the way, I can say that it has made a major difference in my arm muscles. They don't really look different when relaxed, but when I flex my bicep I have a substantially bigger, firmer muscle in there than I've ever had in my life. I've just started doing the "hoist the sack" movements, so I expect to get similar changes in my triceps soon. (I can also see the bicep muscle clearly when I brush my hair, and it still amazes me.) And these differences didn't just occur recently -- I started to see them, believe it or not, after doing SG for a few weeks.

Remember though, there are 2 aspects of "toning", as I understand it: 1) firming and shaping the muscle, and 2) removing fat from on top of the muscle so it becomes visible. The more fat resides in one's upper arms, the harder it will be to see muscle changes underneath (especially when the muscles are relaxed). Shovelglove takes care of part 1, and if you're doing NoS, that should help with part 2. I'll stop now in case I sound preachy. Just wanted to mention this because I tend to forget it myself, and the fat reduction part is (to me) much harder.

[snazzybabe]

[Kevin]

Aside from definition and increase in muscle size, the big payoff for SG is strength and endurance.

I went to my cousin's house tonight and we ended up messing around on his Solarflex. He showed my how much he benched, then did a set. He asked if I wanted to try. I did. I ripped off a set of 15 while he looked at me with suprise. He bumped the weight, did 10 more, then I did 10 more...

He paid $1300 for the machine, versus the $20 I paid for my 14 pound sledge. He's 10 years younger, has always been more of an athelete than I was, and is visibly bigger. He's a specimen. Clearly, we were in the 150 range, not the 300 range, but still, strong is strong, and you can get very strong without bulking up much with SG. I have no doubt he can bench press more than I can, probably a lot more. But I also have no doubt I can dig a longer ditch, push a heavier wheelbarrow, snow shovel a longer driveway, and throw more stuff in the back of my truck than he can.

You'll like SG. It won't take long to notice a difference. Eight pounds is fine to start. I just moved from 10 to 14, but I've been doing this for a while and I like to push myself.

Have fun!
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[JWL]

Thanks for your story Kevin. You've totally inspired me; I've been shugging for 2-3 months now, and I've been itching to upgrade my sledge from the 10 pounder I've been using. I want to try to find a 13 or 14 pounder, that chain you recommended isn't in my area sadly. I may just go for broke and go for the 16 pounder; I've learned well how to use leverage while shugging.

Most of the time on the 10 pounder I have both my hands close together (think, baseball bat) all the way down at the end of the handle. Now *that* makes the 10 pounder difficult. It's amazing how easy it is to utterly change the physics when you put the weight at the end of a 4 foot stick.

I should also mention that I'm a big guy (6'4", 340 lbs), strength isn't my issue, endurance and weight loss are.
_________________
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net

[margaret]

In the spirit of you shovelglovers, I'm vowing to set the timer for fourteen minutes and get on my exercise bike. Tomorrow.
_________________
"E're she looked for the good, e're she found it.
Annie May Quigg 1891-1996

[Kevin]

How about setting your timer for 14 minutes and shovelgloving? It's far, far more interesting. Forget the hammer for a while, use a broomstick, or a broom, or use nothing.

14 minutes of SGing usually leaves you wanting more.

14 minutes on an exercise bike... well...

I'm a No-S proponent, but I'm an SG fanatic.
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[oldfox]

I gotta back Kevin up here. It is not only the benefits and rewards of the fitness SG will bring that will keep you doing it. It is actually fun. It is almost like playing a game or something. It really is fun. >A fun workout.< You will also feel like you accomplished something when you are done. And the 14 minutes goes by very fast when you get in the swing of it. Try it.

[gratefuldeb67]

Right on Old Fox! SG is SUPERFUN!
Everyone should own one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep on Gloving!
Peace,
Deb

[JWL]

agreed. Shovelglove is the best workout (Well, at least the best upper body workout), I've ever encountered. Give it a go!
_________________
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net

[Ariel King]

I have to add my vote in here for SG rather than the bike. I have done various forms of exercise in the past, but never as consistently, or for as long, as I've found myself willing to do SG. And I just wanted to mention how proud I am of myself: I have done SG every weekday for this entire month!!! GO ME! *tooting my own horn madly*

[gratefuldeb67]

Toot toot whoo hoo!!!!!!
You are my hero Ariel!!!
I am really proud of you
Love,
Deb

[Ariel King]

Thanks Deb. Your consistent support is really helpful! (((HUGS)))

[sibyl]

Deb's a one-woman cheerleading squad!
_________________
"I have no idea what you're talking about, so here's a bunny with a pancake on its head".

[gratefuldeb67]

Go, team, go!!!
Help us God!!! LOL.....


You guys aren't too shabby either!
Hugs back at'cha!
Deb

[carolejo]

I started out with my shiny new 10lb sledge yesterday and did 2 sets of 5 minutes, one in the morning and one in the evening.

This morning I did 6 minutes. I won't be doing any this evening cos I've got an Aqua Areobics class I go to on Tuesday nights (another fairly 'fun' exercise, plus I like the social aspect as I have friends I made at the class who I only ever see there).

Tomorrow morning will hopefully be 7 minutes SG. That way I'll build up to 14 minutes each day. For me, it's more important that I do a little each day to build it into my morning routine than for me to do 14 minutes straight off so increasing by a minute each day, up to 14 minutes is the best way I found to start out.

It's fun! My cat Lyra finds this new pastime facinating and clearly thinks I'm nuts, but fortunately she's sensible enough to stay at a safe viewing distance! The boy S (my Husband) scoffed a little but then I caught him picking it up and making a few shovelling movements, so I'm going to keep quiet and just see if he decides to join me in the end! *grin*
_________________
CaroleJo

[Sahd]

[carolejo]

Decided to stick with 6 minutes again this morning cos my forearms were a little sore from yesterday.

Hopefully I'll be able to up the time I do it for tomorrow, but one thing's for sure, I don't need to rush it cos I'm already doing more than I ever did before!

S is still 'resisting' but I wonder how long he'll hold out for...?

C.
_________________
CaroleJo

[itf]

I bought a 10-lb. sledgehammer over the weekend and just did my first workout.

For reference, I'm 31, male, 5' 11" and 195 pounds, and I haven't been in great shape for about ten years now (I was about 170-175 pounds when I graduated high school, which was the last time I was working out every day. During college, walking several miles across campus every day kept the weight off, but after that it started inching up. And I've never had particularly good upper-body strength.)

SG has great appeal for me, as someone who continually finds excuses not to go to the gym (mainly along the lines of "I don't have the time.") I had intended to buy a 12-pound hammer, but Home Depot only had 10-pounders (and smaller) and 16-pounders. The 16 was out of the question, and so I took home a 10-pounder instead - and it's just as well, 'cause this sucker's heavy enough for right now.

Today, I did 30 shoveling moves on each side, followed by 15 butter churns (right hand on top) and then another 15 (left hand on top.) I then did 20 chops on each side (I found this move to be relatively easy - I must be doing it wrong) followed by five "no-name" moves with each arm. I then checked the time - six minutes remaining - and did another 30 shovels on each side, another 15 butter churns on each side, and had just finished 20 more right-handed chops when my timer went off. I thought about doing 20 left-handed chops for symmetry, but decided to stick to Reinhard's advice about quitting when the timer goes off. I did keep working for the entire 14 minutes, aside from some brief swearing breaks.

That was about twenty minutes ago. Fully extending my arms is mildly uncomfortable (I think I overdid it on the "no-name"/arm-curls) and I have the slightest twinge about halfway down my back on the right side, but otherwise I feel pretty good. (I promise to skip tomorrow if I can still feel the twinge in my back.)

I plan to post every two weeks or so with an update (partially for your info, partially to motivate myself.) As of Day 1, I am enthusiastic about SG and feel like this is an exercise plan I may actually be able to stick with. Time will tell...

[Ariel King]

Hi itf. Congrats on your first ShovelGlove workout!! I really hope you aren't too sore today. (I severely overdid it on my first SG attempt back in March, and was having flashbacks while reading your post.) Though it took me 11 days to recover from that first workout, I've been doing SG ever since, and rarely get sore anymore. This is the ONLY exercise I've ever managed to stick with, and it's done remarkable things for my muscles. Good luck!

[Kevin]

itf, give it a day or so until the soreness goes away, then get back to it. I find SG to be the perfect exercise. It takes almost no equipment, puts on muscle mass pretty quickly, and gets you in the shape you need to be for real world kind of work (yard work, DIY stuff, etc.).

Have fun with it. That's the most important thing.
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[itf]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. Ariel, your flashback was on target - I way overdid it on Monday. Tuesday and Wednesday were pretty uncomfortable, and today I'm much improved but still sore, so I decided that SGing today would be pushing it. I'll be giving it another (slightly less intense) try tomorrow, I think.

[gratefuldeb67]

Ha ha! That reminds me of the first SG session I did last year...
I put on Led Zep II and went ballistic! Projectile sweat was coming out of my head! And when I was finished I was spent!!!!! But if you pace yourself, unlike I did that first day, it isn't going to cause major soreness on any regular basis...
So have fun with it!
Peace,
Deb

[itf]

I threatened to post every two weeks...

Today is fifteen days after my first day, and today was also my fifth workout. (Five days between 1 and 2, due to sore muscles. Four days between 2 and 3, same reason. Three days between 3 and 4, and three days between 4 and 5 but only because I was so busy yesterday I couldn't even fit in the 14-minute workout. Yes, really.)

At this point I feel like I could try to SG every day, but that might be pushing it, so I'm going to try every other day for a week or so, then make the big jump to every day. I'm still enjoying it and making fairly rapid progress for now (sets of 30 shovels on Day 1 have become 50; sets of 15 churns, with pauses, have become 20 without; and so forth. And I won't hurt tomorrow like I did after Day 1.) Also today I finished my sets with a few seconds left over to freestyle (which is a significant improvement as well.) In general the shovelglove feels lighter than it did at first. Finally, at two weeks in, I'm weighing in at 194, a pound lighter than two weeks ago (now I need to keep up that weight loss rate for six months...)

I'll post again in two more weeks, unless I lose momentum and return to a sedentary lifestyle, in which case shame will keep me away.

[gratefuldeb67]

Hi Itf..
Don't let shame stop you from doing something fun if the only thing that's hard about it is keeping the "everyday" requirement.
I feel I know Reinhard pretty well at this point, so I'll say what I think he'd say... Five days a weeks works for him... He is not a doctor or a physical trainer or therapist... I'm sure he, and all the rest of us here wouldn't hold it against you if you backed of every other day... The goal here is to have a maintainable activity that won't stop every third month for months on end... It's not even recommended to do weight training every day anyway... If your body is telling you something. Just listen to it. Reinhard... Hope that was in line with your Shovelglove wisdom!

Have a great day!
Peace,
Deb

[Kevin]

I don't usually SG every day - I alternate days with other resistance exercise. Personally, I think the more variety in exercise, the better.
_________________
Kevin
Re-starting: 194 (15 September 2009)
Current: 183.5 (1 December 2009)
Goal: 165 in October 2010.

[Ariel King]

Hi itf. Good job for sticking with SG, even on an abbreviated schedule due to soreness. Glad to hear you're making progress though. Every other day for a week or so sounds like a good way to gradually ramp up. I have confidence you'll get there - believe me, I had the wussiest girl arms ever, and if I can do it every day, anyone can!

[itf]

Thanks all, and don't worry, Deb, shame will only kick in if I give up entirely. I'm quite certain I can maintain - at an absolute minimum - a three-days-a-week schedule, so I don't think that's likely to happen.

I'll make notes on my progress in two more weeks.

[gratefuldeb67]

Good for you!!!
Just my experience here, but when I was really going at it with SG, I didn't lose that much weight, and I'm sure it's because my muscle mass was changing, but I toned up really nicely... Since I've been away from it for a while, my belly seems like I went up a teeny bit inchwise...
I don't know if I'd win any arm wrestling championships right now...
At this point since I've been practicing Yoga, and doing a fair amount of massage, frankly I don't get around to SG like I used to...
I'm trying to change my attitude about that, but I feel a little like my plate is already pretty full... When I do it, it's for pure pleasure! I did it last week... Once my back is feeling better from an annoying injury flare up I'm experiencing right now, triggered by the ridiculous 4 hours of chair massage I did on Monday (no more events like that for me!!!!!)
I will be back to my Yoga'ing and SG'ing self...
I did crack open a coconut with my SG last night...
Does that count at all?
It sure was fun!
Peace and Glove,
Deb

[carolejo]

Hey Deb!

Guess what? There's a coconut in my fruit bowl right now so I think I'll be trying that tomorrow for a laugh (after I've drilled 2 holes in it and drained out the coconut water, that is - Can you imagine the mess it'd make otherwise...? *chuckles*)

Did 7 minutes today. I'm back to trying a little every day now. I should be able to 7 minutes every day next week too. Perhaps Nietzche was right and 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' cos although I overdid it badly on Monday and hurt for 3 days afterwards, now I'm able to go for 2 whole minutes longer than beforehand.

C.
_________________
CaroleJo

[reinhard]

Deb -- Using the shovelglove to do something real (and amusing) certainly counts for something!

Itf -- regarding the 5 days a week: Deb and Kevin are right, if it's too much, please find another schedule rather than kill yourself. Another thing to keep in mind is keeping the 14 minutes a weekday structure as I do, but using some of those 14 minute slots for a non-shovelglove exercise. That way you keep the natural rythm of weekeday vs. s-day without torturous repetition. And do remember that you don't have to go at it with the same intensity every morning. The habit of carving out the time is the most important thing, for that a relaxed routine does just as well as an intense one.

Kevin -- I'm sorry I missed your post about the solarflex until now. That's awesome.

Freakwitch -- I'm really looking forward to seeing your physics lesson on video!

Glad you all sound like you're mostly having fun, despite some sore patches. Sorry I've been such a lousy poster recently. Maybe my monthly resolution for August will have something to do with that... (still have today to decide and hit the magic 21 days).

[Sammy]

Hi folks,
SG has been very easy for me to maintain. This was surprising for me because I have a "tennis elbow"-like condition that is very frustrating for weight training. Anyways, the way I've found successful is to do circuit training. I do 10 repetitions of each exercise and keep cycling through them until 14 minutes runs out.
My exercises are:
butter churns
shoveling
"side bends"
driving fence posts
"paddling"
knee push-ups (yes, I know, like a "degraded beast")

Thanks for your time. Keep on shuggin.
Sammy

[gratefuldeb67]

Ha ha, Sammy!
Reinhard is so very funny and enjoyable to read, but even he would probably say, that if you like to do floor exercises, to do them!!!!
I personally love to do floor exercises...
And sometimes like to just lay on the floor to relax and stretch out my back and neck...
I don't feel it's degrading...

But you know, that whole shovelglove thing is really meant to be done upright... That's how it was intended to be used, so it makes sense to do it that way...
I was a totally lame ass yesterday as regards my SG (yes it's time to kick my own ass...)
I then tried to honor my 14 minutes commitment by laying in my bed and holding the SG while under my covers!!!!! LOL......
I did try to do some (lame) chest presses with it, and found out, that it is really uncomfortable to use the SG in anything but the upright position....
I stopped after 1 minute, in disgust, and then promptly started to doze off!

Well, Carpe Diem!
I will do it today!!!!

Keep up your great routine!
You will notice how it tones the muscles almost instantly....
Regular weights never did this for me...
Don't know why, but it's just my personal belief that everything Reinhard creates is from a deep place of wisdom and is blessed!
And fun!!!!!!
See you later
Deb

[Sammy]

[gratefuldeb67]

It's so cool isn't it??? I'm enjoying your posts too.. I took a big break from SG for a while there, but I'm back...
After two days of doing it, my son Richard said, "I can see your arms look better already Mom..."
When I was really into it.. After the New Year and around, hmmm, maybe March or April, when I took my Shovelglove "Sabbatical", I didn't lose so much weight, but my arms and stomach went down measurably... My arms went from being 16.5 inches of pure Grandma flab, to 14.75 in only two months... My stomach went from 38.5" inches to 36.75"....
It works!
Besides the highly effective nature of Shovelglove, it is so gosh-darned quirky, that it has a special kooky charm all of it's own...
We are an elite force I tell you!!!!!!


Keep up the good work and vibes!
See you later...
Peace and Glove,
Warrior Deb
Pact of Blood....

Wanna be in the Pact???? Hee....