Everyday Systems

finallyfull

Coming up on seven months -- it's pretty easy now. I am enjoying reading the discussion board posts as usual, but now I am struck by how the dilemnas and questions of newbies reveal how I used to think! I am amazed that the most reasonable guidelines feel like a huge threat in our crazy random-eatin...

finallyfull

Fantastic! Thanks for posting. I love that you and Dave both figured out (through action, first-hand) how slim people still eat well while remaining slim. I am almost 7 months in, and hearing very happy well-fed people who have done it for a long long time gives me a very good feeling. That is the m...

finallyfull

Awesome, thanks for posting! I read your previous years and was intrigued by a blip weight gain during vacation followed by a return to normalcy with a return to No S -- it's the exact opposite of what happens to most people, who take a "vacation" from insanity with a diet, but return to normal by g...

finallyfull

Biologically we seek food. But calling desire a "craving" somehow seems to give it a special place of honor. For me, the cultural acceptance of the words "hungry" and "craving" to describe between meal desire give camouflage to the enemy. (the enemy? those darn cats)

finallyfull

I've tried having two meals on a couple of days, and it was good in that it showed me that I can very easily go longer between meals than the usual 5-6 hours. It has helped me realize I have largely been imagining (or over-valuing) my "hunger" when I've eating in the past few hours, and reinforced t...

finallyfull

I bet craving is used much more in the modern day to elevate the idea of wanting whatever I want right now to something more important. I'm guessing it was borrowed and expanded from the realm of pregnancy cravings. I hear people all the time talk about their cravings as if they meant their bodies n...

finallyfull

Also important to me: I have been eating very healthily for the past several months -- freggies with each meal -- and I have fallen from that due to vacation/summer/laziness related reasons -- and I have the reassurance of knowing I am STILL on No S, and that there is no penalty. I can take vacation...

finallyfull

Several red days lately -- not sure how many, I don't count or track because that makes it a diet for me. On the positive side, zero of them turned into the "what the hell" effect. Also, I was amazed to realize that I am not only not at all hungry (usually, with the occasional transient pang) anymor...

finallyfull

A can of substantial soup and an apple would leave me hungry too. Or maybe just feeling punished. For my lunch I would definitely have had a hunk o'bread with butter or a chunk of good cheese, or a banana with that. But as I've said before, my inner beast is sensitive, so I have to go very slow and ...

finallyfull

Checking in to remind myself I AM NOT ON A DIET. The only way this will work long term is if I can turn it into unconscious habit and quit trying to lose weight. Otherwise I will rebound one day and decide it's not worth it. That doesn't mean I will stuff myself, it just means I must lose the focus ...

finallyfull

Wow fantastic!! Great post. You look great, and I think you are a wonderful commercial for sane eating.

I love that this is not a diet and that it works. Thanks for posting!

finallyfull

I think it's a really important concept -- real versus fake hunger. I think sometimes people feel insulted by the thought, and I wish there were a way to talk about it without that. I have what I consider "fake" hunger when I want food but I know I had a good solid meal less than five hours ago. I k...

finallyfull

I also space them out about 6 hours, unless I just can't because of work. I now don't get really hungry until 5 or so hours after a meal. (I get "cravings" and sometimes a feeling close to hunger that passes, but they are more and more rare. I now recognize them as "wanting food" rather than needing...

finallyfull

I mean brakes! The point is, our bodies will naturally moderate if we don't sneak food in the "side door" all the time, and what you are experiencing is nature telling you how much food your body needs, the same way it would tell you if you had enough awake time and needed sleep. We are so disconnec...

finallyfull

I think it's very important to note that it's when you started kind of "dieting" (not really but cutting back maybe?) you gained a little. This is the whole thing for me -- when I "diet" I ultimately gain, so I must fight never to let No S become a diet. As you have said, the best S is vanilla! By t...

finallyfull

I should mention that I DID start out by having very large breakfasts, for a number of reasons. I heard it helps curb later appetite, it started me out with the comfort of knowing I was well fed indeed, and set a good tone for the day. It helped me get through the first few months, and actually I've...

finallyfull

I bet you already covered this, but have you thought about some weight lifting? I have heard it can make you hungry, over time, probably because muscle burns more. Plus it's of course great to have strong muscles. Just a thought. I'll be curious to see how your 2 meals a day goes. Sometimes I think ...

finallyfull

Christine: reading what you ate for meals makes me hungry. Also, (as my name suggests) I started out making sure my meals were very good, and when I found myself "hungry" three hours later (still do sometimes, but how can it be hunger when I'm again "full" another hour later?) I just mentally pictur...

finallyfull

Six month check-in, longest stretch by far, and definitely seeing a seemingly positive and permanent change in habit! After two big tests, a camping trip and then a very long week-long driving trip, I have never eaten between meals, and only very rarely (whenever I wanted!) had sweets or seconds. Th...

finallyfull

I have found it helpful to catalog the things I lose when I've departed from No S. Separate from the weight issue. For instance, when not on No S, I have a little bit of guilt and fear mixed into my snacks and treats. Yuck!! Guilt and fear are the worst spice of all. Also, I lost the peace of mind t...

finallyfull

@leafy greens - "exercise gets you away from the kitchen." That hits the nail on the head! The best exercise is moving in any direction away from the kitchen between meals. For me, No S is helping me focus on well-being instead of just weight. Even if I could be slim without exercise, I hope I alway...

finallyfull

Ok, five and a half months in, and I am feeling unhappy that my weight is staying the same (I've lost five pounds over the time, after gaining). But, unlike the last dozen times, this time I still think No S is the way to go, and I am grateful for it. I know I need to let go of any weight goals in o...

finallyfull

I think being honest is the key -- the paradox exists, there it is, you can look at it. Awareness is the antidote to denial, I think. Are you eating slowly enough? I totally share your desire to enjoy the "experience" of eating and the smaller amounts pose a problem. But for me, who has always been ...

finallyfull

5 and 1/2 months and definite change in habit! I went away for a conference out of town and was absolutely certain my habits would be gone and I'd be back to randomness. Instead, I stayed almost green (one tiny S event) the whole week! And it was very, very, very, very easy. Wow. Each day big piles ...

finallyfull

uh, I think I've just discovered my new Thanksgiving tradition!

finallyfull

Suspending tracking, or suspending eating three meals on N days only? If it's the latter, I will be curious if you feel happier eating that way for a week. I am at a point (and I do not track, because it keeps me focused on "diet" rather than "life") where I dislike being off of No S on weekends. I ...

finallyfull

I'm curious -- do you just eat sweets at the end of a meal? I do find that I hate to "spoil my appetite" -- I guess that's what I've been doing on weekends. I do enjoy the stuff while I'm eating it (usually), but it spoils my appetite. I like the "motto" instead of "rule" reframing. I feel like no S...

finallyfull

Who knew I was doing the "worst thing you can do"? Oops. I have been firmly convinced that counting calories is bad for my mental health, but I have still been peeking at the scale every few weeks and it HAS impacted how I view eating -- usually discouraging me or making it too important. I wonder i...

finallyfull

I'm confused. You say you are eating more lately, because you need less food and are not hungry? How does that work? (I'm not being a smartass here, I promise, I am truly curious and would like to know more.) Are you indulging in sweets, snacks, or seconds, or all three? I would think maybe just slo...

finallyfull

@vmsurbat: you said "Meals with NoS structures are sane, sound, and satisfying. Random eating, overeating, mindless eating are insane, harmful, and dissatisfying. Losing weight is the bonus!" well put! I am starting to realize that the insane, harmful and dissatisfying eating on the weekends is a dr...

finallyfull

Just keep counting those three plates a day. Resist the urge to imagine a new bad pattern is emerging. There is always the next normal meal to jump right back into normalcy again. I wonder if your life is adding some extra stress that's coming out in your relationship with food? Maybe some soothing ...

finallyfull

Phew -- learned "again" that no rules (i.e. weekend) leads to weird random eating patterns that don't bring peace or happiness. It was by no means wild, and yet I couldn't tell you what or how much I ate. A bite here, a half-meal there, who knows. No rhythm, no hunger. I am not forcing myself to pre...

finallyfull

Awesome! Let me know when you're 85 how you feel. I plan to be here to hear about it.

finallyfull

Two red days, Friday and Monday, both not "worth" it at all -- chalk it up to learning. Friday some dumb chips because I was at a party sitting in front of the bag, and Monday a teeny plate of appetizers because everyone else was going up and I have this illogical thing about not wanting to "make" o...

finallyfull

I look back over the last several years and realize that I "quit" No S whenever I didn't see "results" after a couple or few months. Fortunately, I realize that all of those "failures" were just learning. I only wish I would have gotten back up on the horse right away each time, instead of wandering...

finallyfull

Well thank you! I understand that receiving flattery burns calories, so I doubly appreciate it! I agree about not needing to think about it all day. Another great thing about No S, I'm finding, is that when I do think about it, I feel good! There is not the counting, the figuring out, the guilt, the...

finallyfull

Without No S this would not have happened. I went to bed without eating dinner. Not because I'm on a diet, not because I'm sick, but because I wasn't hungry. A first! I also have been reading and following Geneen Roth's food guidelines (eat when you're hungry, stop when you're satisfied, etc.) as pa...

finallyfull

Argh! Mad at myself for breaking my "don't count calories" pledge. I ate a big bowl of grape nuts with dried cranberries today and felt really still full well after my usual lunch time. Curiosity got me, and I found I'd had like 1100 calories for breakfast -- double or triple what I probably normall...

finallyfull

Welcome! I try to really tell myself the truth, a truth that my sneaky side can't argue with -- so optimistic affirmations like "I'm not hungry" have to be translated for me into "I ate a satisfying lunch two hours ago, it's physically impossible for this to be hunger" works best for me. Also "I get...

finallyfull

It's working! Down two more pounds (the trend is down, even though pounds can fluctuate alot). I am so glad I have consistently fought my urge to turn this into a diet by shorting myself at meals, because I really very sincerely want to see what a year on three sane meals a day plus treats on specia...

finallyfull

@Leafy Greens -- The longer I'm on No S, the more I notice what you said about not wanting frozen pizza or other things like that. I think having three spotlighted meals a day makes me value them much more, and over time, this is only growing. I want each meal to be delicious and good for me. When I...

finallyfull

Oolala -- I guess what I think of when I mention elephants grazing is the fact that you can pack wayyyy more food than you might think by eating smaller amounts all day, if it works for a gigantic animal like that. I had always previously envisioned grazing as a petite person thing to do, a small bi...

finallyfull

Could be a fluke or water fluctuation, but I was down a few pounds on the doctor's scale today. That would mean that I not only reversed the couple pound gain that I gained when I started this (big plates full of dense food necessary to make the transition and feel good about it) but I am losing, ev...

finallyfull

I envision my overall health/fitness as something like a treasure trove or bank account, and in order to "retire" with enough to enjoy my retirement in my old age, I must make "deposits" I'm 45, and I am realizing that focusing on size and weight is really not what I need to be doing, mentally. I wa...

finallyfull

I love your cookie conversation summary! When I try to deceive myself and think going "off" No S would be freedom, that will remind me that it's not actually freedom at all, it's the opposite. My weekend cookies, if I want them, are truly free. I intentionally try to keep food and exercise separate ...

finallyfull

Wow Congratulations!!! I am so glad you decided to return to No S and stick with it.

finallyfull

Did something differentish this past weekend: made sure to eat a good healthy meal both Saturday and Sunday before going to events. Normally I feel the urge to skip on weekends, because often there seems to be food wherever we go, and I imagine I'm being virtuous. All that does is disorder my eating...

finallyfull

The word "grazing" has always sounded virtuous to me -- like a light, non-hoggy way of eating, like someone who hardly cares about eating. A big contrast to the fact that grazing allows you to stuff more into your stomach by sneaking it in through small quantities. But cows graze. Big giant cows. An...

finallyfull

Sorry for your loss. Glad you have a wise and supportive group.

finallyfull

I think an experiment is a good thing -- that way if it doesn't work, you don't have to "fall off" the wagon, you just figure out what you need to figure out, and either keep it or don't. I think the word "breakfast" is too often confused for "morning meal." If you're not hungry till 1 p.m., then "b...

finallyfull

"S event" yesterday -- ate three cookies due to imaginary social pressure (someone brought them to me). Could have had one bite. Not worth it. So today I've decided to make a new commitment to myself: I will go out of my way to break the habit of looking at calories. I have mostly stopped, but I sti...

finallyfull

I don't think it's my imagination -- my pants are a little looser today. Or should I say, a little less tight.

finallyfull

By "pang" I wonder if you mean you feel it in your stomach? Or you just want "something else"? If it's in your belly, and you've had a good, normal sized meal, not a diet meal, then a drink should help. I have realized through this (and through eating very mindfully and taking time before a meal to ...

finallyfull

Took a NWS on Monday for my son's birthday -- mediocre cookie cake not worth it. Should have known. But I don't care, it's a legitimate S say. Did not have WTH, but I did have one icky chocolate that was offered to me later. Without No S I really don't think I would be paying this much attention to ...

finallyfull

I like the phrase "failing forward." It's not the falling, it's the getting back up again.

I'm sure there is something or many things to be learned from each red day.

finallyfull

Good luck! I am thinking about your questioning why you spend money on junk but hesitate on fruits. I need to pay attention to the things I blow money on and ask myself this same question! For instance, I will splurge for popcorn at a movie -- a huge ripoff and ridiculously caloric, but I will skimp...

finallyfull

Sounds like you are doing great! I think maintenance during vacation and "heavy" S days sounds like progress!

It is so nice to have a ready-made system to lock into after an S day or vacation isn't it?

finallyfull

All green last week, and I am giving myself a green for a virtual plating event where I might have had a pretty full plate if it were one plate. But I resisted many snacks earlier in the day when I felt nervous about something and had lots of food around (usually I nibble for no good reason when I'm...

finallyfull

I am never ever hungry when I wake up - so I eat breakfast whenever I get hungry, and call it breakfast. Usually that's between 8:30 and 11. Then I eat a good one (eggs, toast, maybe some sauteed veggies or a grapefruit). This has done an amazing thing for me: it keeps me full until a late lunch (li...

finallyfull

Until middle age I was naturally thin, and it used to irritate me when people gawked at my normal moderate meals (when I had to eat at work, or out) and they frequently expressed resentment. But the truth was that I ate three moderate meals a day, of home-made food, and was generally satisfied so I ...

finallyfull

Yesterday: breakfast: steel cut oatmeal with banana & dried cranberries, coffee lunch: big spinach salad with chicken and blue cheese dressing dinner: one reasonable size piece of lasagne and a bunch o'broccoli one dark beer The struggle for me right now, and this is very important for me, is not tu...

finallyfull

Tuesday -- waiting longer before eating breakfast so that I could mindfully explore what my real hunger feels like. I calmed myself and took stock of exactly how my body felt, then ate a slow, enjoyable, nutritious breakfast. Now I'm paying attention to what satisfied feels like. I was thinking "Oka...

finallyfull

Have you listened to the podcast on wild S days? It's good. (So is the book!) I have embraced every day as a learning opportunity. Turns out that all of my previous mistakes did actually add up to something -- bits of wisdom that add up. If you give it time and practice, you will see. I hope that te...

finallyfull

I think discouragement is to be expected in all things -- don't let it freak you out!! I believe you said your clothes might be a bit looser? That's something very encouraging! (Think of putting them on and finding them tighter -- that leads to huge discouragement, and yet why don't we feel a simila...

finallyfull

Thought I'd leave a marker for myself here: had a great weekend, three meals per day, with a couple of stupid snacks, one enjoyable second of chilli, and a small scoop of ice cream enjoyed mindfully. Plenty of food, but it was two S days and they felt sane. Also, weighed a bit less at the docs offic...

finallyfull

I have never had much of a weight problem, but any and all problems came after learning to "diet" -- it was so "successful" it goofed me up for evermore by changing me from a person who ate when hungry to a calorie counter. Duh. Someone here wrote that counting calories divorces you from the natural...

finallyfull

Yep! Someone here has the tag line that goes like: appetite is the best spice, or something like that.

I am slowwwwly learning to actually prefer hunger. Slowly. I definitely appreciate it for maybe the first time, consciously.

finallyfull

I have done better since really working on eating slowly. When I'm with other people I tend to speed up -- I'm not sure why. But it serves as an incentive to try not to look like I'm stuffing myself. It feels weird, but I'm starting to get the hang of not hoovering up my plate. I definitely enjoy fo...

finallyfull

Hey, can I search names in the Daily Check-in so I don't have to scroll forever to find me or someone else?

finallyfull

Great week! No reds. Another lesson: I did not LOOK at the dessert table. I previously looked at it just to "appreciate" it and be thankful, but turns out that's a bad idea. I think adding freggies as one half of most meals (1-3 per meal) has started to crowd out the denser stuff. It could be my ima...

finallyfull

I agree -- if I understand you right. I am doing really well at No S, mainly because it means I DON'T eat snacks, sweets, or seconds. It's passive. But I somehow cannot seem to get myself to do "14 minutes of anything" consistently, even though I am totally on board for it and think it's great and w...

finallyfull

Congratulations! I used to have an everyday at 3ish snack habit.... a very strong one. Among other things, I have killed it with: a good breakfast, a later lunch -- moved it to about 1:30 since I'm not hungry at noon after a big breakfast, and a cup of tea around 3. It's been months now and I no lon...

finallyfull

I wonder if you could experiment with this (I think each person has to learn what works for them). If you have the dessert after lunch or dinner, maybe have your chocolate after breakfast and see if it makes a difference? I also wonder if your breakfast is big enough? Lots of people aren't hungry in...

finallyfull

I have been on and off No S for several years, and always return when I realize that I have gained a little and would not have gained on No S. Also I miss the appreciation for food, ritual, and meals that the good old fashioned 3 meals a day provides. And a million other things. The good news is, th...

finallyfull

Great weekend -- had a few treats but nothing I didn't want and nothing excessive. Managed to eat some fruit and veggies at most meals. Skipped fast food because I wasn't hungry yet and I wanted something better for myself. I think adding fresh fruits and veggies to every meal has made a moderate bu...

finallyfull

Had one red this past week, a brownie and a big toll house cookie. Next time I plan to walk by the place they are kept without looking at them. So today is an S day and I will eat three good meals, regardless of anything else. Also no "stupid" snacking -- meaning just eating because I "can". Only if...

finallyfull

If you are certain you've had a hearty breakfast, could it be that you are just fighting habit rather than hunger? It sounds like you have a good breakfast, but one thing before adding a snack might be to make certain it's a really good one -- not to make you overfull, but to be sure you are indeed ...

finallyfull

I decided to begin a check-in (periodic, not daily) to see if it helps, and to track my progress because I have a very different feeling this time -- I think I get it. After several years of on again/off again No S'ing, I'm ready for it to be normalcy instead of a diet. So here goes: I'm 5'8", 155 p...

finallyfull

Wow congrats!! Thank you for posting -- it really helps reassure me! I want to be in your club. The details really help -- so thanks for that, too. I am 5'8 an at 155, which is nothing to complain about -- and yet I can see how very easily my weight creeps up and up, all the while I am "trying" to f...

finallyfull

Wow, congratulations! I love that you took 3 years to do it, too, because just over 3 months in, I am really focusing on the long-term and on the goal, "success" being moderation, while trusting that my body will find the weight that goes with moderation. I wonder if you will indulge me with some mo...

finallyfull

I have a question for you, oohlala -- do you do habitcal? I seem to remember you (or maybe someone else saying the habitcal turned No S into a diet for them.) I have also found that keeping close track of red/green days seems to turn it into a diet for me, meaning something I go "off". I've gone mor...

finallyfull

I have also noticed that I think more about nutrition on No S. Because it's a definite three meals, I somehow have more trouble pretending I will fit my veggies in later.

finallyfull

Congratulations! Sanity is wonderful. Also good to hear about the running. If for no other reason than to have more energy.

Don't hurt those knees pushing for more when you are doing so well!

finallyfull

Just to add to that: the subtle difference is that instead of thinking so much about "resisting" the food, I'm thinking about what the hunger really means. Subtle but huge.

finallyfull

It's been about 3 months now, and I have noticed something important: I now have a pretty good idea how much food fills me up, and how much is too much. So after my one plate (or lunch bag), I may still want more. MUCH more clear to me now than ever before is the realization that, because I am so ce...

finallyfull

I don't know, I think I could tolerate George acting like he was having a good time. I agree, though, that the real experience of learning that you don't want the intermediate consequences is a big, important step. Immediate consequence of a second helping: yum. Intermediate consequence: overly full...

finallyfull

Another thing I do, and it's a great feeling, is to put the thing I think I need to eat aside for dinner. Yesterday my kids had some banana bread after school, and I was about to be attacked by my brain's "poor me I never get to have a nice slice of bread in the afternoon with my tea" feeling that h...

finallyfull

Bigger breakfast? Find something radically different to do between 2:30 and 4:30?

finallyfull

Still eating a good breakfast after 2 months, and it's still helping. Still having too many red days, but I feel physically satisfied except for the hour before a meal, every day. That makes a huge difference: my mind is not on food, I have no primal sense of deprivation that threatens to eat Tokyo ...

finallyfull

I learned for myself that counting calories with No S was just another "real" diet -- short term success followed by losing even more ground. It worked great, lost 10 pounds, felt great, then one day my body or my brain or the indignant soul inside me decided to take it all back and then some. I reg...

finallyfull

I've been "on and off" for several years, with sanity while "on" and always eventual annoyance and diet head while "off." I have been on since before Christmas now, and have seen some amazing, mostly psychological, improvement. I know for certain I will only slowly gain weight while off. That I have...

finallyfull

People used to take up smoking to look sexy. Bet some still do.

finallyfull

I think it would be a great trend if businesses agreed to "snack free" environments just like some places don't allow smoking. It wouldn't be policed or anything, but I love the idea of having employees agree that they don't bring in cookies and candy and all kinds of temptations. Maybe a one-day Ch...

finallyfull

I've been on & off No S for several years, only going off when I try to trick myself into the same thing that never works "I will just eat less" - ha! Anyway, I have been back on for almost a month, and I am excited to report that I don't have to start from "scratch" every time, at all. Some habits ...

finallyfull

When I grew up in the 1970's, at least in my neighborhood, we ate three meals a day, and I was allowed to grab whatever I wanted between meals, but there wasn't any "snack" food, so I rarely did. Miraculously, I never seemed hungry enough for an apple, except after school when I might make myself so...

finallyfull

I think oolala makes an important point. Life is about the journey, not the destination. If my goals are not in line with a decent, reasonably pleasant day-to-day existence, then maybe the goals are the problem. I think No S challenges individuals to find what is "moderate" for each of us, and find ...

finallyfull

I definitely think I'm on to something here. I usually eat a late breakfast (like 9 or 9:30) and I make it a good one, almost always with eggs, but never so much as to feel weighed down, just satisfied. There is a BIG difference in my desire to snack or eat bigger meals later. Plus I love breakfast ...

finallyfull

back again -- I think I decided after the last time I "quit" no s that I would be too cranky with my kids if I couldn't snack, not sure. I am sure I gained more weight, which has been slowly sneaking up despite my pretending to be "watching" what I eat. So about 2 weeks ago I started again, because ...

finallyfull

Wow, I'm glad I read this: I have previously rejected milk or juice to fight the snack urge because it's so caloric, but I never considered the simple fact that I would never "overdo" on those. Milk just doesn't trigger any desire for another glass, nor would it "call" to me between meals if I'm not...

finallyfull

Happy Cooker -- I wanted to say: What a wonderful, wise post. I think you are on to the very heart of all mindless self-damage, which is basically a way to get away from discomfort, when, in fact, feeling those feelings is an important way to listen to ourselves. Congratulations on a small decision ...

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