Should I really worry JUST about N-days?

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Imogen Morley
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Should I really worry JUST about N-days?

Post by Imogen Morley » Wed May 07, 2014 7:49 am

As some of you might know, I've been a No S-er since 2010. I successfully lost excess weight, albeit later with a couple of mods, coming down to my lowest (and still perfectly healthy) adult weight ever and BMI of about 20.8, but I have regained 6 pounds in the last 8 months, and my eating habits are all over the place. In the past, vanilla No S worked in terms of weight loss by reducing my binging episodes from 7 days a week to 2, but my weekends were almost always idiotic and grossly excessive, somewhat reinforcing the binging habit. I guess it was the classic restrict-binge cycle, a textbook example of rebound effect. But sticking to the principles of No S was easy when I knew I could eat whatever the heck I wanted on the weekend, without any restrictions whatsoever. My reward was not the sugar itself, I think - seconds and snacks are generally not my problems - but the relief from rules. Of course, that meant going bananas, but in some weird way it worked, at least weight-wise. I'm an all or nothing person, I need strict, clear boundaries - but if I cross them, I always give in to WTH effect.
I'm by no means overweight, so although I admit I'd like to lose a couple of vanity pounds, sustainable eating habits and healthier relationship with food are my primary concerns right now. I have my heart set on starting over with vanilla No S, but somewhere at the back of my mind lurks the everpresent fear of S-days, possible weight gain, and that dreadful Monday sugar hangover/bloat. In the past I never got to the point where my S-days calmed down by themselves - perhaps I didn't give vanilla enough time to work? My question is therefore: should I really worry JUST about N-days? Since I don't have much weight to lose and want to regulate my eating habits, adding rules to S-days would seem sensible. On the other hand, premature optimization leads to weekday failures. What would you do in my place? I'd very much appreciate your thoughts on this.

eschano
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Post by eschano » Wed May 07, 2014 8:24 am

My gut says you didn't stick to it long enough. Eventually the habit caries over. If you stick to vanilla for 2-3 years you surely will see S days calm down. I only saw them slowly calming down after 1 1/2 years and then they went up again and now I have some idiotic S weekends and some incredibly sane S weekends. I suspect if I stick to it another 1 1/2 years they'll be mostly sane and the odd idiotic weekend will not be such a big deal. At least that seems to have been the case for most people who stuck to vanilla.

As I understood Oolala did add some mods for S days and it seemed to work for her because she fully exhausted vanilla before.

How long did you stick to vanilla at first?
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Post by Imogen Morley » Wed May 07, 2014 8:34 am

Winter 2011-autumn 2012, so not even a full year. Sketchy record before 2011, and switching between vanilla and mods since late 2012.

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed May 07, 2014 2:59 pm

It sounds to me like you gave Vanilla No S quite a lot of time.
Successful "S" days consist of deviation from N day behavior SOMETIMES,
with those deviations being minor except for special times like major holidays.

Some people do seem to manage to gravitate naturally to that behavior.
Many others don't ... despite their long-term, hopeful vanilla No S efforts.
No one but YOU can know what will work for YOU,
including if, and what type of, modification would be helpful.

Don't deceive yourself. There is no MAGIC in No S.
Habits are formed by reptition of the same behaviors.
If S Days consist of months of weekend bingeing
then, one Habit you are developing and sustaining is weekend bingeing.
Last edited by BrightAngel on Wed May 07, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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eschano
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Post by eschano » Wed May 07, 2014 3:04 pm

BrightAngel wrote:
If S Days consist of months of weekend bingeing
then, the Habit you are developing and sustaining is weekend bingeing. [/b]
Well, for me that was not true. I had 1 1/2 years of weekend bingeing but the habit I trained was N days because habit is what you do most days and N days are most days. I think you can get there but it will likely take a long time, like for me.
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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed May 07, 2014 3:14 pm

eschano wrote:the habit I trained was N days
because habit is what you do most days
and N days are most days.
Looks like you were one of the people
who naturally gravitated to "S" day SOMETIMES behavior.
On the other hand, I, was one of the many people who did not.

I edited my post to read "one" habit instead of "the" habit.
Because we can develop more than one Habit at a time.
We can develop a "successful" weekday eating Habit,
and at the same time develop a weekend binge Habit.
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wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Wed May 07, 2014 4:49 pm

I think the answer to your question varies from person to person. If you're having long term trouble with S days, then controlling them may be part of what you need to concentrate on.

After almost 8 years of No-S I do things differently. I almost never take an S-day. I concentrate on 3 meals daily (well generally 2 for me) and no snacks. I don't worry too much about sweets and seconds (one plate).

I'm generally not a fan of over the top desserts, so if I want a treat after a meal I have it. I've never worried about using only one plate. If there's a second plate or bowl it's usually filled with vegetables and I'm not going to worry about them.

What I've found I need to concentrate on is the volume of food I consume at each meal. Rarely do I have a full plate: there's often a lot of blank space.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by oolala53 » Wed May 07, 2014 11:35 pm

When your fear and loathing of going overboard on S days and suffering cruddy Mondays is great enough, you will be able to institute mods for S days, since they never calmed down on their own. I moaned a lot after about 1.5 years about how mine weren't calming down. I think about another year later I just got tired of the issue and instituted a mod aimed at the worst problem. Besides some wavering in general the last six months, I would say it was successful. I certainly don't think my recent problems have come from that mod. Even now, after over 4 years, I am not as carefree about all this as I would have liked to have been, but I don't know how to change that, so here I am.

I rather agree with BrightAngel on this. It sounds like wild S days have become a habit. Being purposeful about not doing that could do the trick.

How strict are you being with your food choices and amounts on N days?

It's also possible that getting down to your lowest adult BMI was just a little too low to sustain easily and the erratic eating is the body's response. Or it's just psychologically too uncomfortable to accept how little food you need. It's not a crime. It would probably give you more peace, though, to eat your food at sane meals and moderate snacking events. Very few people actually live happily with random eating, if you look at stats here and in the world.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
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noni
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Post by noni » Thu May 08, 2014 3:48 am

I'm still overindulging on weekends and it's going on two years next month for me. A month or so ago, as an experiment, I added a little sweets to the N days to see if that will help. Just a cookie after lunch or one scoop of ice cream after dinner...that sort of thing. So far the weekend bingeing habit hasn't lessened. I do believe I've ingrained a bad S-day habit, and a forced rule is in order. Even tho' I've gained some of my weight back, my heartburn is still under wraps. That would be a real telltale sign for me to do something pronto.

It really does depend upon the person. I envy those whose weekends have become sensible!

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Thu May 08, 2014 2:25 pm

I am in awe of people who have sweets more often as a way of decreasing the tendency to overdo on weekends. However, I'm content to keep to sweet-free N days.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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MerryKat
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Post by MerryKat » Fri May 09, 2014 10:44 am

LOL Oolala! I am the same as you! For me that is a slippery slope that I never recover from! 1 sweet = lots of sweets in my life!!!
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)

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Dandelion
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Post by Dandelion » Fri May 09, 2014 11:16 pm

BrightAngel wrote:
If S Days consist of months of weekend bingeing
then, one Habit you are developing and sustaining is weekend bingeing.
And BAM - there it is! That's what I finally figured out about myself. I was all about Vanilla a couple of years ago. Sure, it worked, as in I lost a few pounds, but I gained what felt to me like a weekend binge habit after not bingeing in a good 12-15 years.

Granted, it was nothing like the binges of old, but compared to the new normal, it was a binge. I much prefer what my self-knowledge has brought me to - which is less-strict rules but consistency and greater compliance.
'I do think the way to a full and healthy life is to adopt the sensible system of small helpings, no seconds, no snacking, and a little bit of everything. Above all, have a good time.' Julia Child

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Dandelion
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Post by Dandelion » Fri May 09, 2014 11:33 pm

wosnes wrote:I think the answer to your question varies from person to person.

I almost never take an S-day. I concentrate on 3 meals daily (well generally 2 for me) and no snacks. I don't worry too much about sweets and seconds (one plate).

I'm generally not a fan of over the top desserts, so if I want a treat after a meal I have it. I've never worried about using only one plate. If there's a second plate or bowl it's usually filled with vegetables and I'm not going to worry about them.

What I've found I need to concentrate on is the volume of food I consume at each meal. Rarely do I have a full plate: there's often a lot of blank space.
I could have written that - other than the '8 years/2 meals' part. That's kindof how I look at things now. I don't care for 'over the top desserts', either. They are on offer nearly every week at work. I would rather have something small and simple. And I always use a smaller plate for dinner, not to control the amount of food I put on a plate - but because my portions are so small, they look pathetic on a normal dinner plate :)

Amazing, really, how the same situation can generate such different responses. We are all so unique
'I do think the way to a full and healthy life is to adopt the sensible system of small helpings, no seconds, no snacking, and a little bit of everything. Above all, have a good time.' Julia Child

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Sat May 10, 2014 4:44 pm

Noni, sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I implemented a mod on S days after a couple of years or more of wild S days and it has worked quite well, in my opinion. I was sick and tired enough of the S day overeating that I finally was ready to surrender to a mod. My worst issue was sweets so I made the mod about them. I am just as likely to eat two meals with no snacks/seconds on S days as three, but I don't consider that a mod because that happens as I play it by ear. The mod I do not usually consider a negotiable. I do fail at it sometimes. All things considered,the enjoyment I get from my food is about the same or higher since the change. That doesn't mean I'm not still tempted to thwart the plan. It's just easier to ignore the temptations.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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Post by osoniye » Sun May 11, 2014 10:18 pm

Imogen Morley wrote:"Take care of N-days, and S-days will take care of themselves". I wonder if my past failures... were due to "premature optimization" of my weekends.
Hi, Imogen- I think there is a lot to this quote from your check-in thread. I think the best thing to do is try to get your N days really green for a period of time. In recent months you have mentioned a number of red days, of various types, like chocolate between meals, a 4th meal of Mom's rhubarb pancakes, wanting to skip a third meal and then binging on sweets later in the evening. Until you get your N days really under control, it seems to me that you will meet with a great deal of frustration in trying to control your S days, too. I think you'd be better off to put lots of energy into N day compliance, and just watch your S days happen, with gentle curiosity until you are really ready to see what happens to them when N days are more serene.
-Sonya
No Sweets, No Snacks and No Seconds, Except (Sometimes) on days that start with "S".

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Post by oolala53 » Sun May 11, 2014 11:59 pm

I had been only about 85% compliant with N days. That may have compounded the issue with wild S days., but it was enough success that the contrast was still striking and the benefits were palpable enough to keep striving for the two years. N days are crucial, in my book, too.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

noni
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Post by noni » Mon May 12, 2014 1:49 pm

Oolala, the N-days compliancy with me started out almost 100%, but as the wild weekends continued, the N-day compliancy dropped. It became discouraging that I couldn't get control over my S-day eating. I use these days to bake, (and unlike wosnes, I do like the over-the-top desserts!) and I always hope that my family will help me eat them, and they do to a point. All the rest that can be frozen gets defrosted over future S-days and mostly eaten by me. Good times! (not really) I need to bake less, freeze less.

Time for an S mod. My weekend breakfasts are usually sweet (donut, muffin, pastry of some sort, etc...). Lunch and dinner with a sweet afterwards and no snacking.

Oolala and anyone else on these boards...do you have a mod for S days that works for you?

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Post by heatherhikes » Mon May 12, 2014 10:52 pm

noni wrote:Oolala and anyone else on these boards...do you have a mod for S days that works for you?
From the beginning, for me the main problems on S-days were the sweets. What helped me was that I didn't keep a lot of sweets in the house, even on weekends. My hubby and I usually went out for an afternoon treat (German coffee hour), and on the way I often bought some special dessert for after dinner.
Besides that I usually continue with the 2-3 meal pattern on S-days...
So, on weekends and other holidays (except Christmas :roll: ) I try to have my 2-3 main meals with 1-2 snack treats while out and a dessert for dinner.

In my opinion my weekend eating patterns are mostly N-days with some treats thrown in; don't know whether you want to call that a mod. I am far from "perfection" but I tell myself then that "I cannot fail on S-days!" Guilt causes me sometimes to overeat.

Hope this is helpful.
_______
h

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Post by r.jean » Tue May 13, 2014 12:23 am

Heather wrote:
In my opinion my weekend eating patterns are mostly N-days with some treats thrown in; don't know whether you want to call that a mod. I am far from "perfection" but I tell myself then that "I cannot fail on S-days!"

I could have written this myself. I start everyday the same way with the same basic habits. However, on weekends if a treat comes along that I want then I have it.
The journey is the reward.
Maintenance is progress.

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Post by noni » Wed May 14, 2014 2:43 pm

heather and r. jean, you both observe the spirit of No S. Thanks for the encouragement!

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Post by wosnes » Wed May 14, 2014 4:14 pm

heatherhikes wrote:
noni wrote:Oolala and anyone else on these boards...do you have a mod for S days that works for you?
From the beginning, for me the main problems on S-days were the sweets. What helped me was that I didn't keep a lot of sweets in the house, even on weekends. My hubby and I usually went out for an afternoon treat (German coffee hour), and on the way I often bought some special dessert for after dinner.
Besides that I usually continue with the 2-3 meal pattern on S-days...
So, on weekends and other holidays (except Christmas :roll: ) I try to have my 2-3 main meals with 1-2 snack treats while out and a dessert for dinner.

In my opinion my weekend eating patterns are mostly N-days with some treats thrown in; don't know whether you want to call that a mod. I am far from "perfection" but I tell myself then that "I cannot fail on S-days!" Guilt causes me sometimes to overeat.

Hope this is helpful.
_______
Perfection is highly overrated. What we should strive for is something that works for us and allows us to achieve our goals. That will probably be different for each of us.

I try not to snack at all, even on S days. I have sweets after a meal and just about anything else (pizza, chips, crackers) can either be the meal or be part of the meal. The only food I haven't been able to work into a meal is popcorn. That's a snack that I have less often than monthly.

S days gone wild are the mod in my opinion. Exactly what one does is going to vary from person to person.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by noni » Thu May 15, 2014 12:25 pm

Wosnes, love your moderation! Whether we do No S as Vanilla or add mods we are practicing moderation. And isn't that what no S is all about?

By the way, I've thrown popcorn into my salad. But it doesn't hold it's crunch like croutons :)

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Post by Strawberry Roan » Tue May 20, 2014 3:29 pm

I never got into the S Days gone wild because I don't like that feeling of being out of control. When I read about people who literally stayed up until midnight on Friday nights just to be able to eat something S at 12:01, it somehow made me sad. :(

I always thought it was telling how many people posted that they welcomed Mondays so they could eat sanely again.
Berry

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Post by wosnes » Tue May 20, 2014 4:42 pm

Strawberry Roan wrote:I never got into the S Days gone wild because I don't like that feeling of being out of control. When I read about people who literally stayed up until midnight on Friday nights just to be able to eat something S at 12:01, it somehow made me sad. :(

I always thought it was telling how many people posted that they welcomed Mondays so they could eat sanely again.
I agree. I also don't like the feeling of being out of control. Whether it's food or drink, I give myself a limit and then make it difficult to exceed that limit.

Sweets are my downfall, but putting them out is sight keeps me out of them. I make 95% of the sweets I eat and putting them in the fridge, freezer or pantry keeps me out of them. I also cut recipes down so there's not so much of a treat available to eat. If I purchase sweets I try to buy only the amount I need.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

weebly
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Post by weebly » Wed May 21, 2014 2:22 am

Also curious to know more about the S Day mods.

I am now about 11 weeks in, and haven't lost any weight. My S days are CRAZY and I usually suffer on Monday badly. I think I need to find a better balance on S days so that I ease into the week a little better. :oops:

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Post by eschano » Wed May 21, 2014 8:33 am

Weebly,

My S Day "mod" is to keep busy or to be precise in company. I never go crazy unless I have a day lying in front of the TV. I have those weekends too and enjoy them (besides the permasnacking) but I usually don't have them more than once a month.

If you need a mod, I suggest to do what wosnes does - make your own treats. It makes you work much harder for them and delays the snacking as you have to wait until it's finished.

I guess I have lots of little habits that reign in S days but I wouldn't consider it a mod. The problem might not be that you eat too much, it might be something underlying (and please don't be offended - I don't know your habits at all so I'm just making this up and none of it might be applicable to you at all), such as:

You don't have enough energy to do much on weekends. Solution: sleep more during the week, make sure you get enough fuel from your N day meals and fuel your body with complex carbs and protein during S days as well.
or
You are alone a lot on weekends. Solutions: if you're an introvert and happy to be alone find a hobby that you can do alone, which keeps your hands or mind occupied or if you're an extrovert find something to do with other people.

and I could go on and on and on. When people complain about S days I think it's really not about the food. However, that's just one woman's opinion so feel free to disregard.
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wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Wed May 21, 2014 11:53 am

weebly wrote:Also curious to know more about the S Day mods.

I am now about 11 weeks in, and haven't lost any weight. My S days are CRAZY and I usually suffer on Monday badly. I think I need to find a better balance on S days so that I ease into the week a little better. :oops:
Michael Pollan says you can eat all the junk you want as long as you make it yourself. I'd add to eat it with your meals. I think no snacking is the most important rule of No-S and I try not to snack at all, even on S days. I view snacks as something to be done in only if a meal is going to be significantly delayed - two hours or more. Snacking if for emergencies. Another way to limit the eating is that I must be seated at the table to eat. No eating while standing, walking or in the car.

Perhaps the most important thing is to remember that S days are a time to relax and enjoy a treat, not to be crazy or wild or practice the see-food diet (you see food and you eat it). You can have anything you want, you just can't have it all at once. You have to practice delayed gratification.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

weebly
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Post by weebly » Fri May 23, 2014 2:07 am

Thank you, I've unconsciously adopted the see food diet! I feel almost obligated to eat snacks or seconds because it's an S day. Like my body will be upset if I dont eat rubbish on the S day. I totally forgot about the make it yourself rule. Of course if I baked a cake or cookies, I would eat far less. Thanks for reminding me about that!

Going off topic, but i was also wondering, can too much rice be an issue? I have recently moved to Asia, and rice is a staple over bread (good grainy bread is near impossible to find and also extremely expensive) . I still stick to one plate during the week, but maybe I shouldn't be eating rice everyday? Any thoughts?

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Post by ABooth » Fri May 23, 2014 3:00 am

weebly wrote:Thank you, I've unconsciously adopted the see food diet! I feel almost obligated to eat snacks or seconds because it's an S day. Like my body will be upset if I dont eat rubbish on the S day. I totally forgot about the make it yourself rule. Of course if I baked a cake or cookies, I would eat far less. Thanks for reminding me about that!
It's the opposite for me. I made a batch of monster cookies today to take to our friends house when we visit them this weekend (4 hours away) and ate cookies for dinner :shock: I have several types of purchased treats in the cabinet, it's just something about fresh cookies. So far I've been restricting this type of cooking for S days but I couldn't this time. Oh well, moving on! Also this is a reason I don't bake bread for our everyday use. A store bought loaf lasts weeks, homemade loaf, hours.

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Post by eschano » Fri May 23, 2014 9:23 am

Weebly, I think trust your body with the rice. Personally, white rice is the grain my body deals with best. I never have any issues with it and often lose weight on it. But everyone is different. My friend can take bread best and my dad pasta and my mum anything wholegrain. So trust your body - if you feel bloated or your metabolism acts up try other carbs.

ABooth - that's probably because you're selfmade things are delicious! One way around it that could make you very popular in your neighbourhood - dump everything you see as excessive on your neighbours :)
eschano - Vanilla rocks!

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Post by wosnes » Fri May 23, 2014 10:08 am

ABooth wrote:Also this is a reason I don't bake bread for our everyday use. A store bought loaf lasts weeks, homemade loaf, hours.
I bake my own bread, but only find it really tempting fresh from the oven and warm. For this reason I time the bread baking so that it's finished 20-30 minutes before a meal. Once it's cooled it's not nearly as tempting.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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