Hello, I'm new. I've read this site before and I really admire the strong common sense approach. I finally decided to sign up and say hello. I'm not sure I want to get with the program, though. Maybe you can help me decide.
So my questions are -
How do you folks usually interpret sweets? I had an experiment of going without sweets for a month, and I came across all sorts of judgement calls. Breakfast cereals? Flavoured fruit yoghurts? Fruit? Dried fruit? Fruit loaf? Marmalade on your toast? Fruit juice? A tablespoon of maple syrup on your oatmeal? Artificially sweetened things? etc.
And what about snacks? It really doesn't seem to me to violate the "don't be an idiot" rule if you eat a bunch of veggie sticks or a piece of fruit when you're actually hungry. But that's a snack...
I don't know. I'm doing OK with my current plan, which is based on the "Don't Go Hungry Diet" (google it, or see http://dramandaonline.com ). It's another common sense one: eat ONLY when hungry, and NEVER so much that you feel stuffed, and make 95% of it healthy whole food - plenty of fruit, veg, legumes, reasonable serves of lean meats, whole grains etc. And don't sweat over occasional small exceptions. And get some exercise. Sensible stuff. I like it, and that's the same reason I like you.
But I don't know. If I eat an apple at 11am on days when breakfast was a bit lighter than usual, that would seem to be a healthy choice, but one that violates the no-S rule. And yet not be being an idiot... Similarly if I have a piece of fruit & a couple of dates and a single square of dark chocolate for dessert most days, that's not being an idiot, but it's an S...
What do you think? Do you have your own interpretations or tough calls? Did anyone have to give up something they thought was actually not unhealthy?
Hello everyone, newbie here. Plus a couple of questions.
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Hello everyone, newbie here. Plus a couple of questions.
We don't need no steenkin' sigs.
Hi Hecaterin,
as I understand it, noS isn't about
healthy vs non-healthy foods.
It's about simple to remember eating rules
that give a structure to people who have fogotten
how and what to eat.
I think people on No-S diet will tend
to eat more healthy food, simply because
experience shows it is easier not to snack
when you eat healthy food. But it is not
the main point of the plan.
If you are doing good with your other plan,
and you don't want to give up snacks
nor sweets for 5 days a week, then why
switch to noSdiet?
Please read carefully Reinhart's explanations
about sugar and snacks on the noSdiet main page.
It made sense to me, and it is the way I was brought up
as a non-overweight kid, that is why I started noSdiet.
Now about giving up any food, healthy or not: on noSdiet
you don't give them up, you just delay them until the
next weekend!
Regarding what counts as sweets or not: you decide!
For me fresh fruit (except banana) are no-S,
and a cup of hot chocolate drink with sugar a day
is also no-S. I usually have fruit with yogurt,
but else sweetening the (plain and small) yogurt
with sugar or honey is also ok.
Foods which are explicitly S-food for me are mainly
solid chocolate and other vending machine junk,
excessive intake of liquid chocolate, most pastries,
cookies, soda, and dried fruit. Kebab, peanuts and
croissants are not actually sweet but I put them
in the "week-end treats" category too because my
self-control is not good about them.
I also tend to avoid any sugar at breakfast except
for a fruit, because sugar in the herbal tea or
marmalade on the bread will make me very very hungry
at 11, which is too early for lunch here.
(edited because I was in a hurry the first time and
missed some things)
as I understand it, noS isn't about
healthy vs non-healthy foods.
It's about simple to remember eating rules
that give a structure to people who have fogotten
how and what to eat.
I think people on No-S diet will tend
to eat more healthy food, simply because
experience shows it is easier not to snack
when you eat healthy food. But it is not
the main point of the plan.
If you are doing good with your other plan,
and you don't want to give up snacks
nor sweets for 5 days a week, then why
switch to noSdiet?
Please read carefully Reinhart's explanations
about sugar and snacks on the noSdiet main page.
It made sense to me, and it is the way I was brought up
as a non-overweight kid, that is why I started noSdiet.
Now about giving up any food, healthy or not: on noSdiet
you don't give them up, you just delay them until the
next weekend!
Regarding what counts as sweets or not: you decide!
For me fresh fruit (except banana) are no-S,
and a cup of hot chocolate drink with sugar a day
is also no-S. I usually have fruit with yogurt,
but else sweetening the (plain and small) yogurt
with sugar or honey is also ok.
Foods which are explicitly S-food for me are mainly
solid chocolate and other vending machine junk,
excessive intake of liquid chocolate, most pastries,
cookies, soda, and dried fruit. Kebab, peanuts and
croissants are not actually sweet but I put them
in the "week-end treats" category too because my
self-control is not good about them.
I also tend to avoid any sugar at breakfast except
for a fruit, because sugar in the herbal tea or
marmalade on the bread will make me very very hungry
at 11, which is too early for lunch here.
(edited because I was in a hurry the first time and
missed some things)
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brotherjohn
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:42 am
- Location: Mississippi
Good morning, Hectarin! And welcome to no-s!
I don't have much to add to answer your question, because in my book, rose has done a good job. I try to follow Reinhard's explanation of "sweets" on the nosdiet page.
Rose, I want to ask you a question just out of nosey curiosity. Why do you treat a banana as an "s"? (I have a feeling that there may be a personal reason, i.e., it is a trigger food, et. al.) I haven't eaten a banana since I started no-s, but if I did, I think I would count is a no-s if it would fit on the plate.
thanks for your time,
John
I don't have much to add to answer your question, because in my book, rose has done a good job. I try to follow Reinhard's explanation of "sweets" on the nosdiet page.
Rose, I want to ask you a question just out of nosey curiosity. Why do you treat a banana as an "s"? (I have a feeling that there may be a personal reason, i.e., it is a trigger food, et. al.) I haven't eaten a banana since I started no-s, but if I did, I think I would count is a no-s if it would fit on the plate.
thanks for your time,
John
brotherjohn wrote: Rose, I want to ask you a question just out of nosey curiosity. Why
do you treat a banana as an "s"?
Hi John,
Actually at first it was an "N", then I used to treat it as an "S"
and even as a "don't even buy it" food but now it is a "be careful
and buy only 2 pieces" food.
It is a very caloric fruit (at least in my mind), I have trouble
resisting it, and it didn't sit well with my usual breakfast routine
(if I eat a banana instead of the usual apple or pear, should
I eat less bread? and other disquieting stupid worries that I
had especially in the first months of noSdiet).
Anyway I have learnt through experience
1) that I need _some_ banana in order to avoid magnesium deficiency and
2) that it is perfectly ok to buy only two pieces of it per week
at the grocery store. (sometimes the silliest self consciousness
causes me a lot of trouble for nothing).
So, like "one cup of hot chocolate per day is ok" (I don't even
_need_ to have it everyday anymore like I did at first), I now
have a "one banana a week is necessary, two are ok" rule.
And I gave up on the tradeoff self-talk at breakfast, because
as long as I don't eat bananas at every meal, the added calories
compared to another fruit are unimportant.
NoSdiet has simple rules, but its actual implementation varies
a lot depending on the individual quirks of one's mind, body,
family and living situation, and culture / location and so on.
Welcome, Hectarin!
If your current system is working for you and you're happy with it, fantastic. It sounds pleasant enough, and if you can stick with it that's great.
I do not for a moment want to knock something that is working for you, but (since you asked) this is reason why No-essers don't practice the very sensible sounding strategies of "eating when we're hungry" or eating "healthy snacks": self-deception. Both these strategies, nice and sensible as they sound, open the door to self-deception, and for most of us, that is the primary problem in managing excess.
Hunger is essentially a starvation avoidance mechanism, it did not evolve to deal with our totally unprecedented environment of superabundance. So it's not going to be a very reliable guide to moderating intake -- that's just not its job. So although it may sound natural to "eat when you're hungry" it's actually profoundly unnatural.
It's also uncivilized. Human beings in traditional societies didn't eat when they were hungry -- they ate when it was time to eat: at meals. Food was simply to expensive and time consuming to prepare to eat whenever they felt like it.
This doesn't mean you'll be starving all the time. Limit your intake to meals and your appetite will gradually learn that that's the time to get hungry. Think of Pavlov training his dog to salivate at the sound of a bell. If you let your appetite lead you, that's like the dog leading the trainer -- precisely the situation most of us (pre-nos) were in.
The problem with healthy snacks is not that they are bad in themselves, but nothing is "in itself," there are side effects to healthy snacking. One is that it establishes a precedent for snacking that isn't always going to be so healthy. Your healthy carrot today becomes the pretext for a bag of cheetos tomorrow. The other problem is that it's an excuse not to eat healthy food at meals. Healthy food at meals is just as good "in itself" as healthy snacks, but its side effects are positive: it crowds out less healthy stuff. Snacking on, on the other hand, tends not to be compensated for at meals, calorically speaking, at all. It does no crowding out -- in fact, it invites bad stuff in.
I did a podcast on snacking last month that might also be helpful:
http://everydaysystems.com/podcast/episode.php?id=28
(please ignore the adds for snickers bars on the side -- wow that's inappropriate. I don't have a whole lot of control over these)
Reinhard
If your current system is working for you and you're happy with it, fantastic. It sounds pleasant enough, and if you can stick with it that's great.
I do not for a moment want to knock something that is working for you, but (since you asked) this is reason why No-essers don't practice the very sensible sounding strategies of "eating when we're hungry" or eating "healthy snacks": self-deception. Both these strategies, nice and sensible as they sound, open the door to self-deception, and for most of us, that is the primary problem in managing excess.
Hunger is essentially a starvation avoidance mechanism, it did not evolve to deal with our totally unprecedented environment of superabundance. So it's not going to be a very reliable guide to moderating intake -- that's just not its job. So although it may sound natural to "eat when you're hungry" it's actually profoundly unnatural.
It's also uncivilized. Human beings in traditional societies didn't eat when they were hungry -- they ate when it was time to eat: at meals. Food was simply to expensive and time consuming to prepare to eat whenever they felt like it.
This doesn't mean you'll be starving all the time. Limit your intake to meals and your appetite will gradually learn that that's the time to get hungry. Think of Pavlov training his dog to salivate at the sound of a bell. If you let your appetite lead you, that's like the dog leading the trainer -- precisely the situation most of us (pre-nos) were in.
The problem with healthy snacks is not that they are bad in themselves, but nothing is "in itself," there are side effects to healthy snacking. One is that it establishes a precedent for snacking that isn't always going to be so healthy. Your healthy carrot today becomes the pretext for a bag of cheetos tomorrow. The other problem is that it's an excuse not to eat healthy food at meals. Healthy food at meals is just as good "in itself" as healthy snacks, but its side effects are positive: it crowds out less healthy stuff. Snacking on, on the other hand, tends not to be compensated for at meals, calorically speaking, at all. It does no crowding out -- in fact, it invites bad stuff in.
I did a podcast on snacking last month that might also be helpful:
http://everydaysystems.com/podcast/episode.php?id=28
(please ignore the adds for snickers bars on the side -- wow that's inappropriate. I don't have a whole lot of control over these)
Reinhard
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Jammin' Jan
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 2:55 pm
- Location: The Village
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brotherjohn
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:42 am
- Location: Mississippi
Something wonderful I see in all this is that no-s is very adaptable to each person's life situation.
Rose has her rules concerning hot chocolate and bananas (and I think they are good rules), and Reinhard has his "glass ceiling".
Being a Christian Church minister, I must obey my denomination's rules concerning pastors and alcohol. Hence, I am a tee-totaler. However, I feel that I was being cheated out of 200-300 calories each day that Reinhard (and his skinny self
) gets that I am not allowed. (Reinhard, do you think I am figuring the calories correctly?)
So, I have my own "glass ceiling". I can have two glasses (each no more than 8 ounces) of soy milk OR fortified orange juice each day. I do not always have these, but I can have them if I want them. I think that this has a similar number of calories to Reinhard's "glass ceiling", and I am hoping has some health benefits similar to his habit.
Rose has her rules concerning hot chocolate and bananas (and I think they are good rules), and Reinhard has his "glass ceiling".
Being a Christian Church minister, I must obey my denomination's rules concerning pastors and alcohol. Hence, I am a tee-totaler. However, I feel that I was being cheated out of 200-300 calories each day that Reinhard (and his skinny self
) gets that I am not allowed. (Reinhard, do you think I am figuring the calories correctly?)So, I have my own "glass ceiling". I can have two glasses (each no more than 8 ounces) of soy milk OR fortified orange juice each day. I do not always have these, but I can have them if I want them. I think that this has a similar number of calories to Reinhard's "glass ceiling", and I am hoping has some health benefits similar to his habit.
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Jammin' Jan
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 2:55 pm
- Location: The Village
And I can have all the fruits and vegetables I want, limit juice to what goes in my morning smoothie (if I have it), usually eat a banana every day, but normally confine meat-eating to S days. I can have fish on NoS days if I want it. I have a glass of wine with dinner several times a week.
I don't confine my meals to what fits on one plate, but allow myself only one serving of whatever is being served. I may eat dessert, too, if it's just fruit.
I don't confine my meals to what fits on one plate, but allow myself only one serving of whatever is being served. I may eat dessert, too, if it's just fruit.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
Thanks everyone - what a nice sensible lot of people you are!
Reinhard, you are 100% right about how easily one could deceive oneself on the hunger thing. Of course, you must be very conscious of the perils of describing a system in a small number of words. You have to leave out all the detail that people need in order not to be idiots! Part of my plan does address the issues you mention - you need to monitor carefully for a while to learn your hunger signals; it's best if you balance quantities at your meals so that you are hungry again just in convenient time for the rest. And those are *not* easy, but as with everything it gets better with practice and becomes habit. It does have sound scientific backing, too.
So if I'm so happy why am I thinking about changing over? Well, a few things. My current loss rate is very slow - almost painless, but slow. I'm down 4kg in 6 months. Last year I lost 12kg, with a mix of common sense and a stint at Weight Watchers. I could do with losing another 10-15kg all up. Maybe a change would shake me up a bit and help get going faster. And I have a few habits that I could stand to change - some more exercise, some fewer desserts... I like your Habit Tracker, and I hope to start using it.
Interesting that you say in the podcast that snacking is the big stumbling block for many people. It certainly is for me. I could go "half-essed", perhaps I will tell you how I deal with snacks, though.
* Some days I plan and pack a snack. This is usually when I have some commitment that runs over a mealtime - a lunchtime yoga class, an early evening rehearsal. I eat something beforehand, so I'm not ravenous & cranky by the end. As long as I've planned it, it ends up being something healthy.
* I nearly always take a packed lunch to work. If I get hungry too early, I eat the fruit portion of my lunch. So then I'm not eating more than I intended. I also keep some dried fruit and some wasabi peas in my office, as my default sweet or savoury snacks if my stomach actually rumbles in the afternoon. No rushing off to the chocolate & chip machine for me. (Those are pernicious!)
* The hardest one for me to cope with is the social event, where people have brought chips, cake etc. I probably have to exert just as much willpower to avoid non-hungry eating as you folks do to not S-snack. Some tricks I use are to nibble slowly on the healthier items; beg a piece of cake to take home for later; and also simply to be gourmet snobbish about it. I'm too good to eat trans-fatty artificially-flavoured styrofoam-textured lurid-coloured crap. Only *real* food for me. It's best to restrict such snobbishness to an inner monologue, of course
So there you go. I'm still undecided but I'm also a bit brain dead right now - I'm in a show with performances tonight & tomorrow, and I've got a cold and work is busy, so this is no time to be decisive. If I do take up a new plan I'll go from 1 August.
Reinhard, you are 100% right about how easily one could deceive oneself on the hunger thing. Of course, you must be very conscious of the perils of describing a system in a small number of words. You have to leave out all the detail that people need in order not to be idiots! Part of my plan does address the issues you mention - you need to monitor carefully for a while to learn your hunger signals; it's best if you balance quantities at your meals so that you are hungry again just in convenient time for the rest. And those are *not* easy, but as with everything it gets better with practice and becomes habit. It does have sound scientific backing, too.
So if I'm so happy why am I thinking about changing over? Well, a few things. My current loss rate is very slow - almost painless, but slow. I'm down 4kg in 6 months. Last year I lost 12kg, with a mix of common sense and a stint at Weight Watchers. I could do with losing another 10-15kg all up. Maybe a change would shake me up a bit and help get going faster. And I have a few habits that I could stand to change - some more exercise, some fewer desserts... I like your Habit Tracker, and I hope to start using it.
Interesting that you say in the podcast that snacking is the big stumbling block for many people. It certainly is for me. I could go "half-essed", perhaps
I will tell you how I deal with snacks, though.* Some days I plan and pack a snack. This is usually when I have some commitment that runs over a mealtime - a lunchtime yoga class, an early evening rehearsal. I eat something beforehand, so I'm not ravenous & cranky by the end. As long as I've planned it, it ends up being something healthy.
* I nearly always take a packed lunch to work. If I get hungry too early, I eat the fruit portion of my lunch. So then I'm not eating more than I intended. I also keep some dried fruit and some wasabi peas in my office, as my default sweet or savoury snacks if my stomach actually rumbles in the afternoon. No rushing off to the chocolate & chip machine for me. (Those are pernicious!)
* The hardest one for me to cope with is the social event, where people have brought chips, cake etc. I probably have to exert just as much willpower to avoid non-hungry eating as you folks do to not S-snack. Some tricks I use are to nibble slowly on the healthier items; beg a piece of cake to take home for later; and also simply to be gourmet snobbish about it. I'm too good to eat trans-fatty artificially-flavoured styrofoam-textured lurid-coloured crap. Only *real* food for me. It's best to restrict such snobbishness to an inner monologue, of course
So there you go. I'm still undecided but I'm also a bit brain dead right now - I'm in a show with performances tonight & tomorrow, and I've got a cold and work is busy, so this is no time to be decisive. If I do take up a new plan I'll go from 1 August.
We don't need no steenkin' sigs.
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ThomsonsPier
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:18 pm
- Location: Reading, UK
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florafloraflora
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:03 pm
- Location: Washington, DC USA
Hey, I'm snobbing right along with you! This is one of my favorite tactics for dealing with treats my coworkers bring in to the office. Chances are none of it will be better than anything I can make myself.Hecaterin wrote: * The hardest one for me to cope with is the social event, where people have brought chips, cake etc. ... simply to be gourmet snobbish about it. I'm too good to eat trans-fatty artificially-flavoured styrofoam-textured lurid-coloured crap. Only *real* food for me.
Count me into the "food snob" group. When you start eating real food, the artificial stuff just isn't worth it.
The early fruit and such does sound like virtual plating, which I do too. Lunch always has one fruit and one veggie (in addition to a carb/protein entree) and I often eat the fruit before my yoga class and the rest after.
Also, I hear you on trying something new to increase motivation. I do that with exercise a lot - rotate different systems to keep from getting bored. Hope it works for you in terms of eating.
The early fruit and such does sound like virtual plating, which I do too. Lunch always has one fruit and one veggie (in addition to a carb/protein entree) and I often eat the fruit before my yoga class and the rest after.
Also, I hear you on trying something new to increase motivation. I do that with exercise a lot - rotate different systems to keep from getting bored. Hope it works for you in terms of eating.
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Too solid flesh
- Posts: 639
- Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:22 pm
- Location: England
Hello everyone, newbie here. Plus a couple of questions.
Welcome, Hecaterin!Hecaterin wrote:Can anyone give me a link to a discussion of virtual plating?
Try this thread:
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... al+plating