Simple rules yet interpretations confusing

[carmij]

Ok...when I first read this it sounded so simple...until I found these forums and now I'm confused. Tell me if I've misinterpreted this.
You can eat what you normally do for 3 meals a day...just no sweets, no seconds, no snacks--except on 'S' days. So I'm understanding this to mean that it's OK to have eggs and toast for breakfast--even cereal and possibly a grapefruit..., you just can't have seconds, you shouldn't eat something like donuts and you can't eat again before your next scheduled meal--UNLESS it's on an 'S' day. However, from other posters I keep reading about all their self imposed restrictions on N days and limits on 'S' days. If that's the case, how is this any different from any other 'diet'? If you are purposely avoiding a serving of mac and cheese at lunch and eating lettuce leaves instead and 'indulging' on a 100 calorie pack of oreos on 'S' days, then what's the point? When I first read about the program, it looked like it made sense. No real deprivation...no 'being good or bad', just limiting your intake to 3 meals and enjoying what you missed on the weekend. Am I wrong?
Thanks.

[swaits]

You're not wrong, you have it exactly right. Don't let the forums confuse you, the book and website are pretty clear. It's a simple system, don't let the forum over-complicate it for you!

[jules]

You have it down exactly right. What you're seeing from other posters is a couple of things I think:

1. a LOT of us have tried other diets. I'm one of the lucky ones and haven't. However, some carry some baggage (good and/or bad) that they carry over into No S.

2. a LOT of us are just trying to find out what works best for us.

Strictly speaking, you can follow the No S diet and eat 3 meals a day at McDonald's. Now you might be just ordering the salads, but you're probably not. (Lol. Who goes to McD's ONLY for the salads?) However, you're not losing weight. Indeed you might even be gaining it. So sometimes you have to think more about your food choices.

At the end of the day, it's most important to eat no more than 3 plates of food a day. Begin with that habit. If you are a hardcore snacker, then plan some snacks for your S days.

Also there are some people who are just hearing about No S and seeing if it really is that simple.

jules

[wosnes]

You're exactly right.. No-S is meant to avoid the measuring, counting and food (or food group) avoidances of other plans. But, as jules said, many folks have come to this with long histories of following diets and the belief that some foods are "good" or "bad" instead of sources of pleasure and maybe even that food as something that brings pleasure is "bad."

[NoelFigart]

By George, I think she's got it!

It does sound crazy that it's really so simple.

But, it is.

I'll give an example for myself. I tried a weightlifters eating routine for awhile -- eat five meals of equal calorie content a day, and have a cheat meal once a week.

You know what you spend your day doing if you don't want to overeat? Measuring food. This gets bloody boring bloody fast and is really only sustainable if you're a pro bodybuilder or something. For a real person with a real life? Forget it. Three one-plate meals a day is far more sustainable and actually easier to contain excess. As Reinhard said, it's right there on the plate all obvious. (Besides, at five carefully controlled meals a day, all you're doing is eating all day. I like to eat and all, but I have stuff to DO in life!)

I did lose a couple pounds with the five meals a day thing, but honestly, it was no faster than No S ing and a big hairy pain in the posterior. I still lift and all (purely because I get a kick out of lifting heavy stuff), but I figure that the whole thing about making sure I get protein every few hours or muscles will shrivel probably applies okay to the 1% top competitors. We people who just do it for fun can probably eat like real people and do fine.

[rose]

When I first read about the program, it looked like it made sense. No real deprivation...no 'being good or bad', just limiting your intake to 3 meals and enjoying what you missed on the weekend. Am I wrong?
Thanks.

Well, you are right. The basic rules of noS are what's important AND sustainable. It is true that some people overcomplicate things (myself included), sometimes out of impatience. In my experience, it doesn't last long and I fall back to simple, easy, sustainable noS quickly.

However, in some instances, in order to be able to follow the simple rules of NoS, some people need additional, personal rules.

Say I am unable to eat at mac donalds without overeating (i.e. it is a trigger food for me), then I will avoid McDonald's on N-days. This allows me to respect the rule "no seconds" more easily.

Say I get lightheaded around 4pm if I don't eat enough carbs at lunch, then I will try to eat a more balanced meal at lunch rather than being almost forced to have a snack. This allows me to respect the rule "no snacks" more easily.

Say I eat mainly processed foods and get a deficiency of some nutrients, then in order to keep in good health and avoid S(ick)-days, I will try to eat more fresh food. This allows me to avoid taking too many S-days due to illness.

Say I go overboard every weekend. After a few months of NoS, my stomach size decreased and now going overboard gives me a stomach ache. It makes sense to look for ways to avoid that. It doesn't mean I want to deprive myself. Perhaps I need to get smaller and tastier treats rather than unsatisfying, eat-the-whole-pack junk food.

This is why almost everyone has their own personnal version of NoS. The "extra rules" may be temporary (personnally I made banana an S-food for a few months because it was a trigger food for me, but as my habits got stronger, I downgraded that to N-food).

I think in most instances the "extra rules" either convert into an effortless way of life or people drop them after a few months.

People who already have "healthy meals" before NoS may never need extra rules... and when I say "healthy meals" it merely means "meals than make noS effortless".

[Nichole]

I think it's everybody's natural urge that they NEED to eat healthy. We're so used to the mentality that we HAVE to eat fruits and veggies and change our eating to lose weight. And for most people it's not JUST about weight, it's about being healthy and that does mean fruits and veggies. People also worry about veggies for energy.

But really, you can follow the simple rules and still lose weight. I know I am! (Though I do avoid really unhealthy stuff, it's because I really didn't eat it in the first place.)

[wosnes]

Say I am unable to eat at mac donalds without overeating (i.e. it is a trigger food for me), then I will avoid McDonald's on N-days. This allows me to respect the rule "no seconds" more easily.

Back in the Dark Ages when I was a teenager, McDonald's (or the like) was an S day treat. Saturday afternoon we'd go and have a sandwich, fries and a soft drink. Not only was it a "Saturday afternoon only" treat, the sandwich, fries and soft drinks were a lot smaller than they are now! Probably better quality food, too.

[MerryKat]

You got it.

I started this 2 1/2 years ago and thought I knew best, so I imposed all sorts of restrictions on my N days and my S days. The end result was I got fed up with it and tried another 'diet', only to come back here because this is the only thing that works. Then I would add other restrictions and the cycle started again.

I have committed to stick to vanilla No S as printed in the book and on the web and it is easy - No more self created modifications. The habit is the important thing.

It is doable and it is working, I can feel my clothes are looser and I feel better. I have chucked my scale and I am only weighing and measuring once a month (curiosity) and I may look at stopping this in time as well.

I know what is better quality food for my body than other things, and I find that more fiber and protein helps the meal stick around longer and help prevent the snacking urge. However, if I am out and about and the lunch option is strange - that is fine as long as it is not a sweet and I don't have seconds.

Follow the plan and establish your habits and you will be well on your way to success.

[Jamiebf]

I have only been doing this for a week but I love the simple concept. For me it is about ending the yoyo dieting I have been doing for years. I admire all of you who have done this for a long time and share your ups and downs with all of us new people. Thanks again

[reinhard]

Welcome, carmij!

The forums are great, but by their very nature, the posts going to skew towards unusual circumstances, problems, ambiguities, tangential issues, special needs, etc. People tend to post about what they are NOT clear about, rather than what they understand perfectly well.

Most of the time, of course, the solution is "stop worrying about these borderline issues and keep it simple." But sometimes there are funny personal circumstances or issues that require a little tweak. I think, on balance, these discussions are more helpful than they are confusing, but I admit there is some danger of the latter. Unfortunately I don't know what do do about it -- except recommend getting a good solid helping of "vanilla" from the home page or the book.

Reinhard

[lmt2pt]

Without at doubt, for me at least, the hardest part of getting No S down was the fad diet mentality. I thought I had to lose a certain amount of weight during the week. WRONG. I thought I had to eat "healthy". WRONG. I thought I had to try to be "good" on S days. WRONG.

I just had to follow No S exactly as written.

Over time, everything else worked itself out. ON IT'S OWN. Self imposed restrictions are the baggage we carry from fad diets. It is truly one of the hardest parts of No S to master. However once we master it, the true freedom of No S is amazing. It is also when we see the biggest benefits of No S.

[Dawn]

You got it! And to complicate it in anyway would kill it for me and this plan would die like all the other plans I've been on over the years. I think a lot of people said it best when they talk about the baggage we bring with us from our past and that's what complicates it for a lot of us. I think its human nature to worry you are doing something wrong if it's too easy.

But since we don't count calories etc., you will have to play around with portion size to see how much you can eat and still lose weight. Or you may find you if you keep eating the way you are but kick up the exercise a bit, you will start to see some results. It's not complicated at all, but at the same time it's not magic. It's calories in vs. calories used. That never changes. The S plan's basic rules just make it easier to achieve the right balance so you feel great and look great - FOREVER!

For me the book made all the difference in the world. The simple facts and figures that are quoted just show us that we have been caught up in the whole "everyone's doing it so it must be OK" mentality. Or "they" say snacks are good, and "they" say you can't eat carbs etc. So once I got some REAL information stuck back into my head, it made following the plan that much easier.

My favorite thing about No-S - waking up and not feeling guilty every day.

[kccc]

My favorite thing about No-S - waking up and not feeling guilty every day.

Yup.

Here's my two cents:

Follow the basic rules.

Accept that different people will interpret them differently for themselves (like what constitutes a "sweet"). That's okay.

Accept that your own needs/approach will evolve over time. At the beginning, you may NEED a big plate with your favorite junk food on it so you don't feel deprived. Later, your food choices may change.

If you see that something isn't working for you, tweak (with caution - see MerryKat's post). What you're seeing on this forum is the accumulation of individual tweaks, plus some "evolution" in similar directions (like a preference for "real food"). None of these are mandates.

When in doubt, go back to "plain vanilla."

[Blithe Morning]

The plan is simple. It reminds me of the way I understood eating when I was 8.

• You normally didn't have snacks because they would "ruin your dinner".
  You normally didn't have seconds because it was more food than you needed. If you were really hungry, you had an apple.
  You normally didn't have sweets because they were bad for your teeth and didn't have any nutrition.
  You had sweets on your birthday, your family's birthday's and holidays. Sweets were special.
  You had snacks on weekends to tide you over because dinner or lunch was later than normal.
  Same for seconds, meals weren't served at their regular time, you were a little hungrier so you ate more.

I think maybe people are finding their way back to their inner 8 Y.O. It takes a while. I know it did for me (this is my 2nd time on No S).

Of course, maybe they didn't have these kinds of rules when they were 8 so they have to learn instead of remember.

[sandooch]

I think it's everybody's natural urge that they NEED to eat healthy. We're so used to the mentality that we HAVE to eat fruits and veggies and change our eating to lose weight. And for most people it's not JUST about weight, it's about being healthy and that does mean fruits and veggies. People also worry about veggies for energy.

But really, you can follow the simple rules and still lose weight. I know I am! (Though I do avoid really unhealthy stuff, it's because I really didn't eat it in the first place.)

You hit the nail right on the head there. I've been on and off diets for 30 years, and the first thing I thought about when reading about NoS is, "Well, I have to make sure to get in enough fruits and veggies with every meal." After 30 years of dieting, it's hard not to think this way.

Plus, I'm 45 years old now, and it's not just about losing weight to look good in a bikini. I want to be healthy and a good role model to my girls! So even if I could lose weight NoSing by eating a gallon of ice cream 3 times a day (I imagine Heaven being this way), I'm not going to do it, because it's unhealthy. I need to think about what foods will give me the most nutrition so that I can be around a long time to keep driving my kids crazy.

[Jesseco]

So even if I could lose weight NoSing by eating a gallon of ice cream 3 times a day (I imagine Heaven being this way),

sandooch, I do too, but don't forget the brownies, fudge sauce, and whipped cream! Yay, only two more days until S-day! (There's always something to look forward to! )

[eizzo]

After reading all these post I am ashamed to admit I did add restricting to my N days and my S day (which I havent reached yet). BUT my thinking was that I am always gung ho at the beginng of a diet and if i imposed additional rules I would lose more weight, but when I was wavering I could eat what I wanted. However, I truly know it is the snacking that kills me. So the NO snack thing is so hard but i think if i master it i will be more successful. I enjoy the idea that if i really only have to wait a few days then BAM i can have a bit more. OH by the way I have been trying sucking on Halls (the mentol ones) to curb cravings, I read that somewhere. It seems to be working.

Good luck everyone.

[NoelFigart]

After reading all these post I am ashamed to admit I did add restricting to my N days and my S day (which I havent reached yet). BUT my thinking was that I am always gung ho at the beginng of a diet and if i imposed additional rules I would lose more weight

No need to be ashamed.

The point of No S is that it is a permanent, long-term solution. A couple of years ago when I first tried No S (yes, I'd fallen from the True Path *grin* since), I decided to do an experiment. I filled my single plates appropriately and then did a calorie count. I was eating ~1600 - 1700 calories a day. At my height, activity level and age, that would take off the weight quite slowly but comfortably. When I quantified it like that, it made it easy to trust the "three plates" rule.

Adding more rules, when you're trying to change a habit for the rest of your life, is a little silly.

I used to be a diet counselor (Diet Center, if you've ever heard of it. Small franchise. I don't know if it even exists any more). I've developed a hate on since for any temporary diet as a solution to a long term problem since those days. You get into this mentality that "I'll only have to eat this way for a little while, then I'll be able to change".

With No S, you're making the lifelong change NOW. This is it. This is how you'll choose to eat. It's not intrusive, it's sustainable and it does solve the problem, albeit it make take years. (It's gonna for me!)

The more I read and observe, the more I agree with Reinhard that the basics are really what will solve the problem in the every days type solution. I

[wosnes]

I think this explains why folks apply restrictions to both N and S days.
This is from Mediterranean Women Stay Slim, Too:

I have to say that I find some of the American attitude toward food a little strange. Women in particular seem to have a love-hate relationship with food, and we are teaching this love-hate food fight to our daughters. We fear our food, thinking it will make us fat or unhealthy. But yet we feel addicted to food and eat way too much of it. And the food we often choose to overeat is bad food -- processed, fatty, tasteless. Food filled with chemicals or sitting in layers of plastic on a shelf for months. Food made with fake fat, fake sugar, fake color. No wonder this food fails to satisfy or nurture our inner goddess! C'est mauvais pour la disgestion! (It is bad for the digestion!)

This way of eating in entirely foreign in the Mediterranean culture, where people cherish quality, taste, and the sensual experience of eating.

The Italians have a saying: [Mangia poco ma bene. (Eat little, but eat well.) That is the single most important key to staying slim because you won't overeat, but you won't feel deprived, either. The Mediterranean diet offers you truly good food with relatively little effort, with such full flavor that small portions seem like plenty."

Between the love-hate relationship with food and conflicting information (fat good/carbs bad, carbs good/ fat bad) it's no wonder we begin to restrict our intake! We don't know what to eat unless someone tells us!

[carmij]

I really appreciate all your comments. It's nice to know I do understand the concept after all. This is my first week and I'm surprised to learn that I snacked more than I thought I did. I never consciously buy snack items, but I've been finding I unconsciously take bites of things, here and there. I've stopped myself quite a few times this week.
But all in all, I'm not feeling hungry--I do miss my seconds so I make my 'firsts' count. I'm not ravenous and I'm not really craving the sweets yet. If I do, I know I have a couple of 's' days coming up, but the best part so far of this plan is enjoying my everyday meals and not feeling like I'm missing something. If this program works, I'll be doing quite the happy dance--sans extra jiggling of course.

[BrightAngel]

My favorite thing about No-S - waking up and not feeling guilty every day.

This is only my second day of trying No S, but that would also be my favorite thing.

I' am so very tired of feeling "less than" because I ate too much or too little, or the wrong thing, or at the wrong time.
It would be so nice if I could relax a bit more.

By the Way, I'm trying this together with trying the "4 Golden Rules of Paul McKenna"...
....AND I'm continuing to input all my food into my DietPower computer food journal which automatically counts my calories..
Cautious? Yes, I want to be more relaxed with food...
...but only inside maintenance, not to the point that I regain any of my lost weight.

I started a week ago with 4 Golden Rules, which are:

• Eat only when Hungry;
  Eat what you Want;
  Eat consciously;
  When you think you're full, Stop eating.

And I've found while trying to do that, my eating is like the No S days...in that, I'm only hungry around mealtimes...
...so no snacks, and I'm full before seconds.
No S adds the no sweets thing except on S days, and I think that would also help me.
Doing the combo, of course, would be a safeguard on S days..
because although the No S restrictions would be lifted, the Golden Rules would still apply.

Of course, I continue my long-time habit of using DietPower which confirms my actual calorie count,
providing me with a safety net which gives me a feeling of security.

Obsessive? Compulsive? Yes...I am.
"Goals without a plan are merely wishes."

[wosnes]

However, from other posters I keep reading about all their self imposed restrictions on N days and limits on 'S' days.

I've been thinking about this and there are reasons beyond "dieting" or weight loss concerns for some restrictions. Health concerns come to mind. For instance, I have a history of cardiovascular disease as well as congestive heart failure. Over the past 15 years I've done lots of reading about diet, especially as it pertains to heart disease.

One of the biggest shocks I had was when I started reading about the heart-healthy Mediterranean diet. These heart-healthy people not only ate a lot of fat by way of olive oil, they ate full-fat dairy, including cheese and butter. They just didn't eat a lot of it, especially when compared to how Americans consume it.

I've come to realize that the more we do in terms of diet and lifestyle to lower blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar and so on instead of relying on medications to do it, the better off we're going to be.

Ironically, I've never had high cholesterol OR high blood pressure -- proving that not all people who have heart disease have high cholesterol or blood pressure or, conversely, not all people with high blood pressure and elevated cholesterol have heart disease.

But I digress...

While I've become much more relaxed about what I eat, I'm still careful about how often I eat certain foods. There are a number of foods that I reserve for S days -- and spread them out over a number of S days. I'm definitely not going to have an N day and most likely not going to have an S day where I have bacon and eggs for breakfast, macaroni and cheese for lunch, and a steak for dinner (those do tend to be S day foods for me).

I've often said that there's nothing I don't eat (unless I don't like it), but there are a lot of foods I don't eat often.

[Noturningback]

This board has some wonderful conversations!

This thread has me thinking of all the rules "they" have told us is the right thing to do. It's not to say these rules have no merit but, if you think about it - it will drive anyone nuts.

5 a Day
64 oz water daily
pre/post workout meals/shakes
macronutrient ratios
3 dairy a day
Butter is bad - no margarine is bad - trans fats are evil
Eggs are cholesterol bombs - now they're good
No Meat - Meat Only
30 minutes of cardio daily - 30 is not enough
Jane Fonda workouts - Quick 30 minute circuit training
Must strength train and do flexibility training
Juice your veggies - juicing has no fiber
cabbage soup 'till the cows come home
Sugar is white poison - but artifical sweeteners are worse

I mean this is just too funny! If you write down, just a fraction of the rules many of us have followed through the years, you may laugh and cry.

I'm tired of sweatin to the oldies and God bless the Olympians but, I'm not looking o shave 2 seconds off my swim time. I just want to go to the pool and enjoy the water - if I look good in my bathing suit...wonderful! Dare I say - I would love to partake in a piece of fresh baked French bread every so often?

Hands down the best thing about the No S diet is the lack of rules! K.I.S.S.

Stop the insanity,
~Danielle

[wosnes]

I would love to partake in a piece of fresh baked French bread every so often?

Stop the insanity,
~Danielle

Here's the great thing: if you want it, can get it and can fit it on your plate, you can have fresh baked French bread.

"Stop the Insanity" -- Susan Powter had the right words, that's for sure!

[Jaymiz]

By the Way, I'm trying this together with trying the "4 Golden Rules of Paul McKenna"...

I started a week ago with 4 Golden Rules, which are:

• Eat only when Hungry;
  Eat what you Want;
  Eat consciously;
  When you think you're full, Stop eating.

And I've found while trying to do that, my eating is like the No S days...in that, I'm only hungry around mealtimes...
...so no snacks, and I'm full before seconds.
No S adds the no sweets thing except on S days, and I think that would also help me.
Doing the combo, of course, would be a safeguard on S days..
because although the No S restrictions would be lifted, the Golden Rules would still apply.

This sounds, basically, like "intuitive eating" (your 4 "golden rules"). And, I've been planning to use my Intuitive Eating (IE) in conjunction with NoS, as well -- only because I know IE was the only thing that ever worked for me (when I actually did follow it!), and I just need the extra structure that NoS seems like it'd provide (keeping sweets to the weekends/special days, and restricting snacks to those times, too).

Snacks and sweets are my "problem" areas (especially "sweets"), while "seconds" haven't been a problem for me since I started using IE. When you're eating only "until satisfied", and you learn where that "satisfied" point is, you usually can't even finish what's on your first plate, let alone go for seconds!

Glad to hear someone else is doing basically the same thing that I'd like to try. Thanks!

[Who Me?]

Interesting...

[SkyKitty]

I tried Paul McKenna's golden rules, and I really, really wanted them to work for me. But they didn't fit into my life.

I can't always eat when I'm hungry because I'm often at work, don't always have access to food I want to eat when I'm at work. I often found I was hungry at different times to my husband, and we maybe wanted different foods. Worst of all I found it sooo easy to feel, anything, any little random feeling and interpret it as hunger.

The only rule I managed to get ANY handle on was stopping when I ws full. Which I do still try to remember, I did find that once you reach that point, any mouthful of food after that just doesn't taste as good as the ones before.

I think the golden rules are actually good rules, I'm not sure how well they can be worked with No S as there are some contradictions, but I do think they are sensible.

I found for me that my life just wasn't flexible enough. No S works much better for me.