On calorie-counting: Point/counterpoint (LONG!!)

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kccc
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On calorie-counting: Point/counterpoint (LONG!!)

Post by kccc » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:05 pm

Recently, BrightAngel and I have been having an interesting conversation off-line about the pros and cons of calorie-counting. If you’ve been on this board a while, you’ll know that we have very different approaches. BrightAngel thinks calorie-counting is very important, while I strongly advocate not focusing on it.

Each of us manages well using our own approach. However, sometimes our attempts to help newer people leads to a bit of tension, because we tend to have such different perspectives and approaches. Exploring these different perspectives in our off-board conversation has been very productive. I don’t think either of us has changed our own position, but I believe both of us have changed our understandings of the other’s position. :)

The conversation has also forced me to really think about why I am so averse to calorie-counting with No-S, and I thought it might be useful to share some of my reflections with the larger group. BrightAngel will of course chime in with her views, and I invite others to join us (asking only that we keep the positive, respectful tone that this board is noted for).

(Warning: Mangled metaphors ahead, some of which are strained and may break under pressure.)

First, some background. I’ve done calorie-counting diets, and I’ve done them successfully. When I was in my late teens and early 20’s, and heading toward the same levels of obesity prevalent in my family, I lost weight – and gained it back, alas – several times on calorie-restricting diets. I can still reel off calorie counts for an amazing variety of foods. I did eventually lose and keep off the excess weight when I began a regime that combined calorie-counting with exercise. At some point, I realized that I liked the way I felt when I exercised regularly, and I even learned to enjoy the exercise I did. (That’s not to say I’m naturally active – I’m not. I take exercise classes because left to myself, I get lazy.)

At any rate, I kept off the weight for decades, but I now describe how I did it as “an armed truce with food.†I exercised regularly, watched what I ate, and monitored the scale closely. Whenever my weight was “out of bounds,†I immediately went on a restriction diet until it was back where I could live with it. During all that time, I doubt anyone looking at me (5’7â€, size 10 max) would have thought “wow, she really has a weight problem†– but in some respects, I did.

Yet that all worked until I hit mid-life, had a baby, and lost exercise time... all at once. At that point, I began to struggle. Several rounds of Weight-Watchers convinced me that I could LOSE through diets that demanded total attention, but I couldn’t maintain that way anymore. No-S has been an incredible relief.

In addition to being able to maintain with relative ease on No-S, I deeply appreciate the difference in mindset, which seems HUGE to me. In my calorie-counting days, I rarely enjoyed food. Food was “good†or “bad.†Treats were always consumed with a side order of guilt. I ate a lot of “fake food,†because it was lower in calories. I was always bargaining with myself over food (“if I have this now, I won’t have that later… if I don’t have this now, I can have that later.â€) Food never just WAS. With No-S, I don’t count calories, I just eat one plate when it’s mealtime. I do eat mostly healthy stuff – I like it – but I no longer categorize foods as “bad†just because they are high in calories. And I eat "real food" most of the time.

So, I see calorie-counting as regressive, as a return to a way of thinking that was painful and limiting. I understand that not everyone has that view (hey, BA! :) ) but that’s how it feels to me. I feel as if, after years of being on a rocky, difficult path, I’ve found a broad, easy way that is pleasant and enjoyable. It did take a leap over a chasm to get here – a leap of faith that I could trust habit over time – but it’s SO worth it to me. I now think that, within these guidelines that sort of replicate “how we were designed to eat,†my body is wiser than my mind in determining what it needs.

And of course, I want to share this nice new path! So, I encourage others to jump over here. I remember my own transition involved some floundering (metaphor-switch alert!), like learning to swim once I’d cast off the “life preserver†of calorie-counting. It took me a while, especially with regard to S-days. After watching people on the board a while, I see that kind of floundering as normal. Perhaps it's even a necessary learning stage. So my strategy for offering encouragement tends to be along the line of “It’s okay. You can do it. Don’t be so focused on calories. Learn to trust habit. Trust that your body will figure it out over time if you let it. Use the force, Luke.†Which is where BA and I came into opposition, because she has a very different view (that’s another cue for you, BA).

One of the arguments for calorie counting is that “calories exist, and you do have to lower them to lose weight.†Okay, they do. But the act of measurement has effects. I am completely convinced that a FOCUS on calories distorts behavior in ways that undermine chances of success. I feel very strongly about this, both from my own experience and from “hearing†people on this board. Example – everyone advises sufficient protein to make it from one meal to another. Yet, I know I used to “short†myself on protein because it was so high in calories. (Someone else said the exact same thing.) Other people have mentioned that they never used to drink milk or eat fruit or the like because they didn’t want to “waste†calories/points on those foods. In addition to distorting intake, calorie-counting affects emotions: it frequently leads to the kind of “feeling restricted†that results in out-of-control rebound-eating. So I wince at calorie-counting advice, because I really do see it as a strategy that almost guarantees failure.

Now, I will admit my perspective is very much colored by my own experience, but it's reinforced by observation. I’ve seen a lot of people come here saying they were still going to count calories, become increasingly frustrated, and then disappear. And I don’t know of counter-examples – people who’ve successfully combined calorie-counting and No-S and been successful at both. (If you ARE a counter-example… say, you’ve been reasonably successful on No-S for about six months or so, and you do count calories, would you raise your hand to help me form a more comprehensive perspective?)

As I indicated at the beginning, Bright Angel and I have been exploring our divergent views. She is planning to post on this thread as well. I would love to see other comments as well, as long as we can keep “exploratory†tone and not slide into attempts at “conversion to the true path.†:) I'm hoping that this thread will become a useful resource for those who are trying to figure out how to approach No-S.

BrightAngel, you're up! :)

Cheers,

KCCC

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Post by blueskighs » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:16 pm

I am completely convinced that a FOCUS on calories distorts behavior in ways that undermine chances of success.
I guess I'll slip in here,

for me the point of No S is to ENJOY my food and eating. Calorie Counting is simply not enjoying. If I am thinking ... how many calories can I have I am going to on a fairly regular basis completely miss the point of what I really want to eat.

Although science has come up with a unit of measure for what we eat, I find PLATING, EYEBALLING PORTION SIZE and BEING CONNECTED TO MY INDIVIDUAL BODY on a MEAL BY MEAL BASIS to be more,

natural, elegant, and shameless :D

And maybe Bright Angel can help me out, but honestly I am really confused as to why avid and committed calorie counters would even be at all interested in No S, it just seems so antithetical to me,
aren't their other kinds of forums for people who religiously journal their food and count their calories and passionately believe that is the only way to go :D

Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey

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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:57 pm

Good Post, KCCC

I don't have time right now to write a response
for the positive side of calorie counting,
but would definitely like to do so a bit later.

I was a bit surprised and "put off" by the
"you don't belong here" attitude of the previous post,
part of which I quote below:
"Aren't their other kinds of forums for people
who religiously journal their food and count their calories ..."
Blueskighs
My perception of the No S forum and the No S Diet, has been
that there is room within for many different points of view,
and there are several different ways to work No S,
and that everyone who is interested is welcome.

However, Blueskighs, after reading your comment, I will definitely make it a point
not comment within your blog or check-in thread.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

kccc
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Post by kccc » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:42 am

BA, I know we talked about my doing this, but I'm sorry I didn't give you more of a heads up so you had time to think about your response. It sounds like I hit at a busy time. (Which I understand - it took me a while to get to this after I initially thought about it.)

navi
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Post by navi » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:48 am

BA, there is room for all points of view on this forum - I can't imagine blueskighs meant that in the negative way that it sounded.....she is usually a positive voice on this forum. Of course you should feel welcome here!

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Re: On calorie-counting: Point/counterpoint (LONG!!)

Post by vmelo » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:58 am

KCCC wrote: . . . But the act of measurement has effects. I am completely convinced that a FOCUS on calories distorts behavior in ways that undermine chances of success. I feel very strongly about this, both from my own experience and from “hearing†people on this board. . . .
Your entire post was right on target, but I found the above comment especially perceptive. I am currently on a strict calorie-reducing diet, but I'm consciously doing it temporarily to get some weight off quickly. I need that motivation right now. However, I've already decided that I will be doing No-S for maintenance. I want to live a normal life, and for me, having to keep a running total of every piece of food I put in my mouth every day will drive me bananas, and eventually, I will quit (as I've done in the past). Of course, ultimately, No-S works because you're taking in fewer calories, but it doesn't feel the same because you're not haggling over the numbers. Just my 2 cents . . .

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Post by CrazyCatLady » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:28 am

Great idea for a hoppin' thread! I fear the calorie counters may be somewhat outnumbered here at No S, but from the posts I have read, they are small in number but have lots of reasons to back up their position!

I am a non calorie counter. I have successfully lost weight through counting on Weight Watchers in the past, but I was not able to maintain the loss. I do think that for me, I tried so hard to "cheat the system" by looking too hard at the points, that I did not always make sensible choices. I remember one specific night when my older teen daughter begged me to go off WW. I was eating lots of gassy foods, including low fat or fat free Pringles with an artificial fat substitute added to them. Obviously, no sensible diet would encourage overconsumption to that extent, but sometimes I would hear "eat as much broccoli as you can stuff in" instead of "moderation".

Most recently I was at Spark People, where the computer adds up your calories and exercise for you...again, due to my lack of self control, I really didn't succeed there, either.

I do think that a person can get tied up in knots over counting calories. I think that it can become like an obsession sometimes. A real-life person who comes to mind is someone who entered and won a chili cook-off contest at work, but had started a diet. So she not only didn't taste her chili, but she didn't taste any of the other lovely chili entries, either. Instead, she ate some tuna straight from the can and 1 or 2 crackers! I thought it was terribly sad! Or the time I went out to lunch for a birthday celebration, and two people didn't eat. One was celebrating ramadan (which I personally found to be an acceptable reason to abstain from eating! :) ), and the other...the "birthday boy" brought his sack lunch from home instead of ordering a salad or something simple for his meal! To me, those are extreme examples of not being flexible with your eating!

On the other hand, I have stuffed my face for years. I am at the opposite end of the spectrum, with no limit setting, and a feeling of no ability to control my food intake. I'm guessing there are probably some people who could tell stories about me...."remember the time she ate...." I'm certain that over the years there were people who wished they could encourage me to count calories and be more mindful of what goes into my mouth! :oops:

So here we come to No S, with our dieting or non-dieting baggage. I'm certain that different things can work for different people. Some people here have eating habits that are extremely peculiar to me. Some of the foods or meals posted simply make me say, "ew, yuck!" Some habits I read about I do NOT want to implement. Others seem like I could choose to add them to my lifestyle. And a healthy debate is always a good idea.

I look forward to reading other people's posts. Thank you, KCCC for sharing your experience!

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OrganicGal
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Post by OrganicGal » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:58 am

Very interesting post KCCC. I have to agree with pretty much all that you have said. My own experience shows me that calorie counting does NOT work for me long term. I have counted calories in the past and lost weight, but have never kept it off. The counting and restriction always gets in the way of living life.

I have to agree that blueskighs didn't mean her post to sound unwelcoming to those who count calories. She stated she is confused as to why calorie counters would find the No S plan/site suited to the calorie counting way. I wonder the same thing, but welcome anyone's comments here on the site, as I believe everyone has to find their own way and what works for them. For some counting calories and somehow combining that with No S might work, but I don't see it either....like blueskighs said.

For me, living the No S way is going to be the final 'diet' I ever go on. My habits are becoming fully ingrained, subconscious, easy and confortable. The weight is coming off slowly (of course part of me wishes it were faster) and is staying off! Obsessions like the scale are becoming part of the past, and exercise on a consistant basis is now part of the present and future!

Good post KCCC.....and I can't wait to hear BA's side of the debate! :D
Creating and sustaining the No S habits are the only thing that will take me in the direction I want to go!

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Post by Betty » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:11 pm

The funny thing is that I still unconciously tally up calories without actually meaning to. After a third of a hundred years on a diet, looking back at a meal for the calorie count is almost a knee-jerk reaction.

But what I like is not having to. "Success" on No-S is measured by behavior, by following the three rules, one day at a time. And what I find most liberating about it is that even if I"m a few pounds over weight I can still see myself as successful. I don't have the "I'll start liking myself when I get down to X # of lbs" syndrome. I have the "hey this was a sucessful week and I'm proud of myself" feeling.

And if it was a bad week? Well, the fact that success is only a day a way keeps me from losing it. I don't have to wait until I work of the calories to be successful, I can be sucessful as soon as I put down my fork.

For me, this is the best thing about no-s. I'm sure I would lose more weight more quickly on a calorie counting diet, but I'm not sure I could keep it up because the point at which sucess is reached is so impossibly far away :) .

Betty

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Re: On calorie-counting: Point/counterpoint (LONG!!)

Post by wosnes » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:52 pm

KCCC wrote:
One of the arguments for calorie counting is that “calories exist, and you do have to lower them to lose weight.†Okay, they do. But the act of measurement has effects. I am completely convinced that a FOCUS on calories distorts behavior in ways that undermine chances of success. I feel very strongly about this, both from my own experience and from “hearing†people on this board.

KCCC
I'm with KCCC on this. I think calorie counting fosters a negative relationship with food and eating, which should be a joyous experience.

Michael Pollan has written that we don't have a single, strong food culture here in the U.S. But we do. It's a culture based on fear. We're afraid of food -- we're afraid of calories, fat, carbs, sugar, you name it. Don't believe it? Watch any news program where food is mentioned or read any magazine or newspaper article that deals with food. Rarely is the joy of eating mentioned -- only the fear of too much of this or that. This is not a good food culture to have! It's certainly not a positive food culture.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by reinhard » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:47 pm

I'm going to (mostly) keep my head down for this one, though I think you all know where I stand...

I guess I'll just reemphasize that there is room within No-s to accommodate a wide range of positions on this issue (and many others). While I think that most people can (and should) do without calorie/carb/whatever counting, I am prepared to believe that for others it can be a good idea -- perhaps even necessary.

Looking forward to a lively, open, friendly exchange,

Reinhard

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Post by Mistress Manners » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:36 pm

I am thrilled not to be counting calories. However, I do find that my WW experience is helpful in deciding how to fill my plate. I know where those hidden "points" are, and if I can find a way to fill my plate in a way that is just as satisfying while using fewer points, I will.

But on WW, my diet became extremely unvaried. Now, I eat things for breakfast that I never would have before (full-fat greek yogurt with fruit for breakfast; salad with nuts or cheese for lunch; fruit, etc.) because I didn't want to waste my points on those things.

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Post by Mavilu » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:30 am

Well, what I'll say has been said several times already, but here goes again:

- One should do what works best as long as one isn't puting oneself under unhealthful pressure and leading oneself to unhealthful behaviours.
After all, there are so many things that could lead to unhealthy behaviours!, but you just have to experiment and see what is okay with you and what isn't.
If something is making you lean towards a disorder, hopefully, you'll catch yourself in time.

- Counting calories is by no means a requisite to be thin healthfully, as proof I'll present myself, a gal that didn't know what a calorie or a diet was until her late 20s all while healthily maintaining a weight of 110lbs, give or take.

- However, we are not all made the same, therefore, not all of us can achieve a nutritional balance and healthful attitudes towards food without some helpers, for some people is calorie counting, for others is shunning snacks, for others is keeping an eye on sweets, whatever it might be.
We must also keep in mind that as we grow and age, we change, we are always changing and what works today might not work tomorrow and viceversa.
Which brings back the first point:

- One should do what works best as long as one isn't puting oneself under unhealthful pressure and leading oneself to unhealthful behaviours.

I personally can't count calories, it stresses me and it makes me dissociate food with what food should be: nourishement, a cultural expression, a social matter, a source of pleasure, an educational pursuit, if I count calories, food becomes a bunch of numbers and nothing else, nuh-huh, do not want that, I'd rather be overweight.

Oh, and I'll add to what Gionta says about Blueskighs, I do not think that that was what she meant, Bright Angel, that would so not be like Blueskighs!.

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Post by resting52 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:12 pm

My 2 cents,................well, actually, not mine.

A very wise person once said:

"20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."


Hmmmmmmmmmm, been there, done that.

One more reason that S.A.D.s don't work in the long run for me.

Resting

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Post by 3aday » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:01 pm

Resting52, I love that scripture and it had a huge impact on helping me change the way I approached food (and living for that matter).

Because of No S....
I no longer count calories.
I don't weigh or measure.
I don't freak out if I go to someones house for dinner and they make lasagna and garlic bread and I am on a "diet".
I always eat within hunger and fullness.
I eat real food.
I give food it's proper focus.
I give life it's proper focus.
I can devote my time to living life, dealing with issues I avoided for 20 years, and learning how to cope again.
When I used to count calories and journal, my focus was 100% on my diet, my food plan, what I could eat, what I could not eat.
Frankly, counting calories and journaling fueled my food and dieting obsession and made it impossible for me to stick to a plan, any plan, even No S (because when I started NO S, I counted calories and snacked and was unsuccessful until I actually followed the actual rules of No S.) My focus was on nothing but food!

Not every plan works for every person.
For me, Reinhard's version of No S is the plan I chose to follow and have had success with.

There are just three rules and one exception:

* No Snacks
* No Sweets
* No Seconds

Except (sometimes) on days that start with "S"

What works for me:
Real sugar, real fat, one plate of food.
Plain and Simple

3 meals a day, living in between.

BrightAngel:
I also did not interpret Blueskighs post as harsh or mean.
We have all welcomed you on this forum even though you do not follow No S.
However, this is the No S forum.
Reinhard's book and home page for the No S diet do not advocate calorie counting.
Freedom from calorie counting is the reason most of us became attracted to this diet in the first place.
So, I can understand Blueskigh's confusion.

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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:46 pm

3aday wrote:BrightAngel:
We have all welcomed you on this forum even though you do not follow No S.
However, this is the No S forum.
Reinhard's book and home page for the No S diet do not advocate calorie counting.

The No S Diet and Counting calories are not mutually-exclusive.

I am very surprised by your statement saying that I "don't follow No S".
It is true that I have not yet been able to establish a 3 meal, no snacking habit,
although I have worked diligently in my attempts to do so.
It is true that I choose to continue recording all my food in my DietPower software program,
which counts calories and gives me the nutritional values of food.

I've read many of the posts on this forum.
I've purchased several copies of Reinhard's book, and read it many times.
Reinhard clearly indicates that certain things work well for him,
and therefore, he recommends them to others,
but he holds the position that there can be many variations within No S
as we adapt it to our individual selves.

Choosing not to follow "vanilla" No S is very common on this forum,
and it is not a Requirement of the No S Diet to do so.
On Page 167 Reinhard says the No S Diet can be combined with another diet,
if one wishes to do so.
A study of this forum will show that every single person posting here
does No S a little differently.
Some have more variations than others,
that doesn't mean they are "less than"
or are failing to do the No S Diet.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by 3aday » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:29 pm

I apologize for saying you do not follow No S.
In the past you had said that you were going to stop eating the No S way.
I did not realize that you had started No Sing again.
My apologies.

However, in no way was I implying that someone is "less than" or "failing" for not following No S perfectly.

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Post by kccc » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:10 pm

reinhard wrote:While I think that most people can (and should) do without calorie/carb/whatever counting, I am prepared to believe that for others it can be a good idea -- perhaps even necessary.
That's where I came to after my discussion with BA. I really don't like to count calories because the feelings of restriction derail me pretty badly. But I can tell she doesn't feel that way about the process of calorie-counting. So my strong-held opinions, while quite accurate for me (and perhaps for others), certainly don't represent the range of possibilities. :)
Mistress Manners wrote:I am thrilled not to be counting calories. However, I do find that my WW experience is helpful in deciding how to fill my plate. I know where those hidden "points" are, and if I can find a way to fill my plate in a way that is just as satisfying while using fewer points, I will.
Actually, I was thinking about this and about what Betty said about unconscious counting. While I don't count per se, I do make choices informed by the nutritional information that I've learned while counting calories.

And I suspect that information could actually be helpful to people who have less familiarity with it - for example, BA posted calories in Panera's foods at one point (I think that's the right chain) and some people were astonished. I was surprised at their surprise, because I knew the range. But if you didn't, and ate there frequently... well, even the one-plate rule wouldn't save you!

Here's a new metaphor, if you all can deal with yet another! Long ago I took a painting class, and we spent an extended amount of time on color theory. At the end of it, we started painting and didn't refer back to those concepts. I asked the instructor about "how do we use this in our painting" and he told me to "forget about it." Astonished, I asked why we learned it then? He answered "you need to know it, but don't THINK about it while you paint. You'll use it without thinking about it, but if you TRY to use it, it will mess you up."

And for me, it's true. I guess I really do use calorie counting principles - given the choice of "baked or fried," I'm going with baked. But if I think about it, it really, really messes me up.
reinhard wrote:Looking forward to a lively, open, friendly exchange.
Good reminder - thanks. I'm not sure why this is a touchy discussion, but it does seem to be, so it helps if everyone can "assume good intent" to keep it friendly. (On the plus side, it's a great opportunity to clarify and to explain and to clear up misconceptions...)

Cheers,

KCCC

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Post by navi » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:53 pm

I guess calorie counting is in the same category as religion & politics - it is best to agree to disagree. No matter how strong your view, or how wonderfully phrased your arguments, good luck changing anyone's viewpoint!

I personally don't count calories, but BA has lost a great deal of weight & managed to successfully keep it off for years (an amazing accomplishment, achieved through calorie counting), so it sounds like she is doing the exact right thing for her!

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Post by blueskighs » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:48 pm

When Galileo said the universe revolved around the Sun, the “powers that be†were not happy to be deposed. He was sentenced to recant and ended his life in house arrest. IMHO Reinhard’s concepts are revolutionary in as wosnes points out the very SAD food culture of the United States.

The fact that we can ENJOY our food and we can not COUNT every bit that goes into our mouths and yes lose weight, maintain weight loss, heal and gain sanity in the process is indeed quite a REVOLUTIONARY concept in our COUNTING food culture,

VIVA la REVOLUCION!

Goodness Gionta, you are right! This is starting to sound like religion and politics :D

thank you to all of you who understand my comments of confusion,
let the "lively, open, friendly exhange continue"!

Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey

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Post by gingercake » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:01 pm

I love the option to be free of counting and measuring and weighing. I also love the option to do whatever works. Sometimes - if I feel like my eating has been wacky or over the top - I'll count calories for 2 or 3 days just to remind myself what reasonable portions are. Yes, I agree that in general the one-plate idea works - but I am a person who can be stubborn and in denial and when I find myself stuffing three hot dogs into one bun and thinking how nice and spare the plate still looks, it's time for a little reality check. Not that I've ever done such a thing. :twisted:

I think when you've been dieting and counting for years and years it can take another bunch of years to get that mind/body thing going and get in the habit of using your common sense instead of waiting for an outside source to answer the question, "Is this okay?"

I do think that it's important to note that in the year 2008 even though we allegedly know more and more about diet and nutrition and health, and there is more information than ever, and finding out the calorie and nutritional content of food is as easy as it's ever been, and there are more government programs, food activists, and intelligent authors like Pollan, we are still fatter than ever. So though counting calories and points and other things "works" on a scientific/biological level, does it work at a lifestyle/psychological level for most people? Current statistics would seem to say no. But maybe there are other pieces of the puzzle at play - education, support, economics.

I do know a few people who have had great long-term success with the counting approach. The one person in particular who stands out in my mind is a numbers person in all aspects of her life. She's a scientist, a statistician, a logician, just LOVES numbers. It makes her happy and secure to count and she loves the associated gadgets and usually she doesn't stress. But I think people like her are the exception.

For me, counting is just another tool in the tool bag. It's useful for me when I want to do a certain job, but it's not something I need (or want) to have in my hands at all times.

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Post by angelka71 » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:49 am

20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."



So wierd! I just read this passage the other night. :)

All I know is that I never much liked dieting...didn't like the fake and/or substitution foods , didn't like counting the calories, carbs, fat etc. Besides it being unenjoyable, I personally never had much success with ANY diet...and to tell you the truth, it was always when I STOPPED focusing on food that I lost weight so b/c of this, I never trusted the diet industry at all. They'd offer a thousand different ways to get to the same goal of weight loss...it just seemed to me that there had to be an answer and that it had to be something simple, something blatantly obvious, something so obvious that it was being overlooked.

I never believed people when they'd say things to me like, "No, really...I just cut up the cucumbers real thin so that it reminds me of chips, now I don't miss them at all. " I'd always think, "Yeah, right...you still wish you could have the chips."

Plus, I watched these people going back to their old habits in time.

The only people I knew PERSONALLY that had been successful at losing and maintaining their loss, were always the ones who said, "Well, I really didn't go on a diet per se, I just kind of stopped eating as much..."

My beloved grandfather always said it perfectly..."If you want to lose weight, don't eat so much!"

If others count calories, carbs, fat or whatever, I think that's fine and good for them for finding something that works for them. It just never worked for me.

vmelo
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Post by vmelo » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:46 pm

gingercake wrote: I think when you've been dieting and counting for years and years it can take another bunch of years to get that mind/body thing going and get in the habit of using your common sense instead of waiting for an outside source to answer the question, "Is this okay?"
Absolutely! I tend to put common sense aside far too much as regards my eating. I'm getting better with this, though.
gingercake wrote: So though counting calories and points and other things "works" on a scientific/biological level, does it work at a lifestyle/psychological level for most people? Current statistics would seem to say no. But maybe there are other pieces of the puzzle at play - education, support, economics.
Right! This is a significant point. Knowledge alone does not change behavior. It helps, but it's just one part of a more complex puzzle (other parts are motivation, how one handles stress, etc.).

Good post!

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:13 pm

I found this recent news article interesting.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25464987/
It concerns the implimentation of the New York city law requiring chain restaurants to post calorie information.

Many people are not happy to learn that their food choices are extremely high-calorie.
DENIAL, "If I don't know it, it isn't true", is a big problem in weight-control,
and many people prefer ignorance, in order to avoid facing unpleasant facts.
‘Take off the labels’
“Some people actually tell us we should take off the labels, because it discourages them from ordering what they want,†he said,

Despite the eye-opening revelations, whether New Yorkers will switch to lower calorie meals remains to be seen. They may just switch menus.

That’s what Fowler, the woman who was dining recently with her friends at T.G.I. Friday's, decided to do.

“I’m so upset,†she said, noting some entrees — like the Jack Daniels ribs and shrimp dinner — contain almost 2,000 calories, and the desserts were more of the same (the brownie obsession is 1,500 calories). “I wish they wouldn’t have done this.â€

But then Fowler noticed that the waiter had handed her friend an old menu, which didn’t have calorie counts on it.

“You got a menu without anything on it?†she asked her friend. “Can I have yours?â€
The mentality of the woman mentioned above is a common one.
She would like to feel guilt-free while eating high-calorie foods.
It does feel great not to be responsible for our food choices.
and
It is difficult to be Accountable for the food choices we make.

Calories count,
whether one consciously chooses to control calorie intake
by counting them,
OR
whether one chooses to uncounsciously control them
by limiting the amount of food they eat, and the times they eat
- - such as is done within the No S Diet. (1 plate, 3 meals, no snacks)
This is an unpopular, rather unpleasant, Truth that many would like to forget,
and I sometimes experience hostility from people for the reminder.

There are some people whose bodies allow them to control their calorie input by the implementation of a few rules.
Within those simple rules or guidelines, their bodies show them what to eat.
This is commonly known as "intuitive eating".
Some pople think everyone is born with that ability, however,
there are a great many adults whose bodies lack that capability.
Those people need to exercise more conscious control of their food intake.

There are many ways to limit calories without counting them,
and some of those ways can bring great success.
I personally have found a way to make calorie counting an enjoyable Habit.
I keep a food journal in my computer.
Every day I click a few buttons to enter all my food, and my software program tells me my calories and other nutritional values.
In this way I become aware of my eating Truth.

I am Accountable for all my food choices.
I've been on many different "diets" or "food plans". .including No S,
but for the past 3 1/2 years, I have detailed records of what I've done, and the choices I've made.
This is what I've done to be successful.

To be Accountable is a difficult, adult thing.
But whether we count calories, or limit the calories of our food intake in some other way,
Calorie Accountability is necessary for successful weight-control.


Note: this is a duplicate post.
I accidentally posted it separately, and then just decided to leave the separate post up as well.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 pm

Entirely too much effort for me.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by blueskighs » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:18 pm

I am Accountable for all my food choices.
BrightAngel,

it is interesting that all of your efforts toward accountability have not allowed you to stop snacking for any appreciable length of time. I know you give these issues a lot of time an thought. Why do you think all of your accountability and efforts have not helped you implement a no snacking habit, even though you have tried?

Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:46 pm

blueskighs wrote:BrightAngel,

Why do you think all of your accountability and efforts
have not helped you implement a no snacking habit,
even though you have tried?

Blueskighs
Blueskighs,
I find it difficult not to be offended by your comment,
and I choose not to respond.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

Jessies Daughter
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Post by Jessies Daughter » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:52 am

I find that the more rules and regulations that are imposed on me or that I impose on myself, the less successful I am at whatever it is I am trying to accomplish. This has proven to be true in all of my efforts to lose weight.

Due to their restrictive nature, diets DO NOT WORK FOR ME. Due to the tedious nature of counting calories, measuring amounts and weighting in DOES NOT Work FOR ME. The simplicity and ease of No S is working for me.

The No S Diet, or Thingy as I call it, has taught me that my body is most competent in finding its way to my ideal weight. I found that that my body, if I listen to it, has a way of finding its own way. The key word for me is to LISTEN.

Counting calories does not give me the opportunity to LISTEN to my body, instead of LISTENING, I spend my time reading labels and counting and calculating my way to a meal that I may not really want, but by all accounts is a meal that fits into a perfectly scripted caloric repast designed to provide enough calories to nourish my body but not necessarily to feed it.

I kind of have the same take on weighing myself. If I LISTEN to my body then the scale is neither my enemy nor is it the gold standard by which I measure how successful I am at losing weight. Is that 3 pound loss a water loss because I am drinking more to mask the hunger I experience by depriving myself of food? Is it muscle loss because I am not getting enough calories to sustain my body or is it fat loss. For me constantly weighing myself in order to authenticate the number that represents how many pounds I have lost is counterproductive to my goal of changing my relationship with food by changing how I relate to food.

I want to lose weight and keep the weight off AND I want to enjoy my meals. I want to have freedom of choice rather than restriction of selections. I want to have freedom from using a predetermined number of calories to tell me that I have eaten enough, or not enough or just enough. I want my cake and I want to eat it to!! No S has taught me that my body will do an excellent job of perfectly counting my calories for me if will just LISTEN to it.

No S has taught me what it feels like to be hungry and what it feels like to have had enough. I don’t eat to get full anymore I eat to get enough nourishment to feel satisfied. No S has taught me to distinguish the difference between the two.

This No S "Thingy" is letting me be me while teaching me to be me.
I call this a No S “Thingyâ€. I have never been on a successful “Dietâ€. My brain thinks a "Thingy" is a new way of eating food, a LIFESTYLE CHANGE.

HabitCal: http://everydaysystems.com/habitcal/vie ... &t=NoSDiet

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Post by kccc » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:22 am

BrightAngel wrote:I found this recent news article interesting.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25464987/
It concerns the implimentation of the New York city law requiring chain restaurants to post calorie information.
That's a very good article. Despite the ending that you quoted, overall it seems that the labels ARE affecting people's choices.

Restaurant food is the one place I would make an exception for "not counting calories," just because restaurant food is SO incredibly deceptive. A dish that would be a relatively "healthy" meal at my house can just the opposite at a restaurant - four times the calories, with all kinds of saturated fat and sodium. It feels like being tricked when I make what should be a "good choice" and learn later that it was awful for me.

Plus, when I was on WW, it seemed almost impossible to get information to make good choices when eating out. (Yeah, there are websites, but it's hard to access them at the decision point unless you've got cutting-edge technology that wasn't around then.)

So okay, you've found an exception to my general stance on calories. :)

deadweight
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Post by deadweight » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:29 am

Contrary to what's being said here, I've always found the idea of calorie counting to be very freeing. It's perfectly logical. In order to control the amount of stored energy on your body (fat) you control the amount of energy you take in (in calories). If you want to drink 1200 calories of beer a day, you can do that. It's not a very balanced diet, but you'll lose weight. (I've done it!) In a way, it's the ultimate freedom. But that being said, I don't count calories either. Nor do I follow No-S really, although I think it's probably the smartest plan I've read for weight loss. I've come up with my own plan that doesn't involve counting anything, certainly not calories or carbs, but I also don't even count meals or servings or days of the week. It's working for me. And that seems to be all that should matter.

To quote a brilliant man (myself from a blog post):

You see a lot of contradiction in diet books and on diet blogs and message boards. Some people will tell you to eat certain foods, others tell you to stay away from them, eat six meals, or maybe just three meals, do aerobics, avoid aerobics, take these pills, don't take any pills. Nobody's right. Everyone's right. You have to think of a diet as a trip home for Thanksgiving -- it's a personal destination and you should know better than anybody how to get there. If you're driving east on the highway heading home for Thanksgiving, you'll see a lot of cars driving west. If the person in the passenger seat said, "There's a lot of people heading home for the holiday," you wouldn't turn to that person and flip out and say, "What the hell! What a bunch of retards! Don't they know home is this way?" But that is what diet writing often is -- people arguing over how to get home.

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:09 pm

Deadweight,
That is such a Great Quote (from yourself).
Thanks.
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See: DietHobby. com

kccc
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Post by kccc » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:17 pm

Bumping this thread since there was some recent discussion on another about calorie-counting or not. There are some great discussions in this thread.

I particularly love the ending conclusion that different things work for different people, and that's okay. So true, and so hard to remember when we want to convert others to the path that works for US. (And I'm as guilty as anybody on that count, so it's good to be reminded.

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la_loser
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Post by la_loser » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:39 pm

Thanks KCCC for your voice of reason on this NO S site.

OK--now to plan my strategy for not being an IDIOT tomorrow with all the candy that will surround me this weekend!

To each his/her own. . .
LA Loser. . . well on my way to becoming an LA Winner. :lol:

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