I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I'm sorry if what I say offends anyone, I'm not trying to criticize nor belittle anything, only trying to offer an alternative point of view.
If you want to read the summary instead of the whole post, then feel free to scroll down to the last two lines.
Also, I come from a hypnotherapy background, though admittedly I decided not to open up a practice. So take what I have to say with that in mind, heh.
We, as people, aren't an all-or-nothing when it comes to wants/habits. We often have conflicting wants/desires as well as conflicting habits. Consciously we can say that we want X, and we can have all sorts of really good reasons why X is good for us, etc. But when it comes to actually putting X into practice, it turns out that there is a part of us, big or small or even tiny, that wants NOT X, or perhaps Y. If we ignore this part of us, or attempt to stuff it down or quiet it, it WILL pop up somehow... and not usually in a good way/time.
Unfortunately, some people interpret this popping up as 'self destructive' or 'self sabotage'. Admittedly, sometimes some people CAN be flat out self destructive or flat out sabotage themselves. But from my experience, MOST often, it's more along the lines of the person suppressing a conflicting want/desire. And the majority of those times, the person doesn't take the time and effort (for whatever reason) to figure out what that want/desire or habit is, and how to fill that need before it pops up so negatively.
For example, smoking. So many people attempt to stop smoking, but fail to take into consideration the various benefits they get from smoking. And I'm not talking the nicotine. I'm talking about having an 'acceptable' excuse to take a 5 minute break from work, the social aspects of standing outside with other smokers and chitchatting, the time spent alone to contemplate, giving the hands something to do, giving the mouth something to do, etc.
When I work with someone, I have to check around for these kinds of things. I have to find out what needs are being fulfilled. And then I have to help them find alternative ways of fulfilling those needs.
Of course, I also have to look for triggers. In the case of eating, it's often things like searching for comfort after an argument, or a stressful day, or jumping on the computer to check forum thread updates, watching tv, reading the newspaper, etc.
For each of these things, (triggers and other needs), I help the person figure out alternative choices that they can make for each instance. And then the suggestive process of hypnotherapy involves basically getting them to mentally rehearse and/or practice making those decisions. So that when they are faced with the situation in real life, there are already some connections to the desired behavior, making it a bit easier to make the choice. Each time they succeed in making the choice, they've just strengthened that option, and slightly lessened the strength of the previous 'option'. Over time, the desired behavior becomes stronger than the previous behavior, and then eventually into a habit.
This is pretty much the basis of what the No S diet does. It tells us that for these particular instances (snacking, sweets, seconds) saying No is a better choice than following previous habits. Each time we say No, and succeed in the follow through of that No, we've strengthened the desired behavior. After the 21 day or so of successful behavior, then we've at the very least have added an alternative behavior that we can more easily choose from. While at the same time greatly lessening the strength of the previous behavior. This is the start of a new habit, but it's not the culmination of the new habit. Eventually, it becomes easier to choose the desired behavior. And eventually the previous behavior no longer 'pops up' as the first possible choice. How long this process takes depends largely on how strong the previous behavior was, and how many times we successfully choose the desired behavior.
But again, Y behavior very rarely fulfills a single need. It's usually filling a number of needs. And those other needs really do need to be considered to help make X behavior a viable option for the whole of the person.
And again, in most cases, those are real needs that the person has, regardless of how 'rational' those needs are or aren't. They exist. And they've gotten fulfillment before, and they need to continue to be fulfilled somehow. But that doesn't mean that those needs are 'subconscious self sabotage'.
My suggestion (for whatever it's worth)..
If you find yourself 'self sabotaging', or mindlessly reverting back to previous undesired habits, take some time to figure out what need that that behavior fulfills. It may take a while to find a viable solution for fulfilling that need (maybe even years of try this, try that, try this other)... but at the very least, being aware of that need helps to reduce the self-criticism or self-putdowns. It helps to put the behavior back into perspective.
The habits we have, fulfill needs that we may or may not even be aware of.
We Do things (consciously or not), because it fulfills a Need.
Fulfilling Unknown Needs vs "Self Sabotaging"
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Anndelise, I think you're absolutely right. And you have expressed the process of change in really understandable and useful terms.
I learned some time ago to think of binge eating (and other indulgences, such as spending too much time on the computer, lol!.) as "misguided attempts at self-nurture." It's a kinder interpretation than "I'm just a wimp who makes bad decisions."
It's just hard to make good choices when you are needy. When I desperately need down-time, playing on the computer sometimes gives it to me... and it's fine in moderation, but what I REALLY need is usually more sleep. Or a meditation audio, or something of that nature, to de-stress. Over time, I can learn to make better choices, but not if I expend my energy beating myself up for prior ones.
The funny thing is that I think this is a chicken-and-egg phenomenon. Dealing with other needs helps change behavior, but changing behavior ALSO helps people identify other needs more clearly in order to deal with them. (There has been a lot of anecdotal evidence of the latter dynamic on this board.)
Your post is really helpful in terms of articulating a process... which some attention can usually speed along.
And now I'm getting off the computer, and going to exercise in order to de-stress.
I learned some time ago to think of binge eating (and other indulgences, such as spending too much time on the computer, lol!.) as "misguided attempts at self-nurture." It's a kinder interpretation than "I'm just a wimp who makes bad decisions."
It's just hard to make good choices when you are needy. When I desperately need down-time, playing on the computer sometimes gives it to me... and it's fine in moderation, but what I REALLY need is usually more sleep. Or a meditation audio, or something of that nature, to de-stress. Over time, I can learn to make better choices, but not if I expend my energy beating myself up for prior ones.
The funny thing is that I think this is a chicken-and-egg phenomenon. Dealing with other needs helps change behavior, but changing behavior ALSO helps people identify other needs more clearly in order to deal with them. (There has been a lot of anecdotal evidence of the latter dynamic on this board.)
Your post is really helpful in terms of articulating a process... which some attention can usually speed along.
And now I'm getting off the computer, and going to exercise in order to de-stress.
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blueskighs
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:11 am
- Location: California
Anndelise,
great thread!
but you make an excellent additional point
There were three fairly significant needs that food was fulfilling for me that food is not "meant" to fulfill. I have been working on filling those needs more effectively wsithout food and I really think this has been a big part of my success on No S Diet.
Thank you for making this thread.
Blueskighs
great thread!
Just approaching six months this is what has happened to me. At this point it is starting to feel "unnatural" to think about not having N days, even though sometimes emotionally I would like to eat in an completely undisciplined mannerThis is pretty much the basis of what the No S diet does. It tells us that for these particular instances (snacking, sweets, seconds) saying No is a better choice than following previous habits. Each time we say No, and succeed in the follow through of that No, we've strengthened the desired behavior. After the 21 day or so of successful behavior, then we've at the very least have added an alternative behavior that we can more easily choose from. While at the same time greatly lessening the strength of the previous behavior. This is the start of a new habit, but it's not the culmination of the new habit. Eventually, it becomes easier to choose the desired behavior. And eventually the previous behavior no longer 'pops up' as the first possible choice. How long this process takes depends largely on how strong the previous behavior was, and how many times we successfully choose the desired behavior
but you make an excellent additional point
I competed a program called Shrink Yourself right before I found the No S Diet. For the first time I REALLY sat down and got deeply honest about what food was doing for me.But again, Y behavior very rarely fulfills a single need. It's usually filling a number of needs. And those other needs really do need to be considered to help make X behavior a viable option for the whole of the person.
There were three fairly significant needs that food was fulfilling for me that food is not "meant" to fulfill. I have been working on filling those needs more effectively wsithout food and I really think this has been a big part of my success on No S Diet.
Thank you for making this thread.
Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey
I really love this post. I eat emotionally for a lot of reasons (stress and anger being the biggies) but there is this other reason that I've always called "transition eating." That is, snacking as a way of marking one thing completed, before I start something else. (finished marking one set of papers. Take a snack break. Start marking the next.)
I never thought of this in terms of a "smoke break," but that's exactly what it is.
I need to think about this more, but there's definitely wisdom here!
Thanks,
Betty
I never thought of this in terms of a "smoke break," but that's exactly what it is.
I need to think about this more, but there's definitely wisdom here!
Thanks,
Betty
Be your own best friend and advocate. Be gentle and kind to yourself. Your weight is not the problem.
Before: 140
During: 140 (again!)
Before: 140
During: 140 (again!)
KCCC
Yes it is hard to make good choices when we're stressed. Thankfully that is where habitual behavior can be a help (though it can also be a hindrance). It's also information. When we're under stress and we revert to some previous behavior, it shows us what types of situations our preferred behavior isn't quite covering. As reinhard mentions elsewhere, the negative tracking gives us more information than the positive tracking (though positive tracking is more helpful at the beginning of developing a new behavior option).
I loved this sentence:
Blueskighs
I know first hand what kind of damage we can do with our self-berating and self-criticisms. It's usually more damage than the actual mistake could ever have done. Most often we didn't deliberately nor consciously choose our 'bad' habits. We developed them because they kept being successful in some way or another. Our mind/body was helping us, as best as it knew how at the time.
Few of us would ever berate or criticize a child for even half the mistakes that we make. Few of us would tell the child that there must be a part of them that doesn't want them to succeed, or that is trying to punish them for being bad, etc. It's unthinkable. Yet many of us do it to ourselves. We berate the part of us that is trying to help us, but only has a limited set of choices to help us with. Just as a child has to learn, so does our mind/body. Thankfully, as humans, we have the ability to review over these kinds of things and figure out and implement changes. And just as we would attempt to support a learning child, so to we can attempt to support our learning mind/bodies. Now, if only it didn't require so much trial and error, lol.
(sorry, those last paragraphs there weren't meant directly for you, blueskighs, but I'm leaving it in because the feelings of being energized are linked within me to the awareness of things I've done/said to myself and the things I see others say/do to themselves)
Betty
Regarding snack breaks and smoke breaks. When I was younger (17-21ish), I would get into trouble with some of my bosses because I'd get up and take a short walk inside the building, or go to the water fountain or go to the bathroom. I'd do this after finishing a fairly intense piece of work. For some reason, it was more acceptable that the secretary or such take a smoking break every 20-30 min or so, than it was for me to take a stress reducing break every 40-50 min or so. Amazingly enough, if they saw me with a cigarette in my hands as I headed out the door, they wouldn't say anything. And if ..uh…somehow…they thought I was trying to quit smoking, they were also more lenient. (dunno what could've given them the idea that I was trying to quit smoking *innocent look*)
Of course, this was 16 or so years ago. I'm not sure how much, if anything, has changed since I left the work force.
General
I wanted to make a comment. Emotional eating (ie when stressed or angry) and needing downtime/breaks are linked together, imo. We need ways of de-stressing, of reducing the stress levels to more personally acceptable levels. One person's stress level tolerance may be higher or lower than another's. There is no 'generally acceptable stress level'. It varies by person... and by situation.
One of the common ways of creating downtime or of relieving stress is to disassociate from it, even if it's only a temporary disassociation. We'll take a walking break, go to the bathroom, play solitaire on the computer, check email, chitchat with someone, check the stock market, exercise, and yes, even binge. For that small bit of time we ignore the demands of our environment…as well as temporarily shut up our nagging head voices. Those nagging head voices are creating just as much, if not more, stress than our environment is. Those nagging head voices are creating stress. The stress builds up. Then we do something to relieve the stress, to temporarily shut it out, and then when that shutting out behavior is over, our nagging head voices jump in and start creating stress again over the behavior we just used to shut it out. It's a downward spiral. Building up on the previous events, and making us feel bad over and over and over.
I wonder… if perhaps the 'self-sabotage' and 'self-punishment' isn't the binge eating, or the avoidance behaviors, or the disassociation behaviors…. I wonder if it's that nagging and berating voice in the head that should carry the label of 'saboteur', instead. Binge eating may cause physiological stress, but it's the self-berating that's causing most of the psychological stress…which may be causing us to binge/disassociate again and again from it.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
Yes it is hard to make good choices when we're stressed. Thankfully that is where habitual behavior can be a help (though it can also be a hindrance). It's also information. When we're under stress and we revert to some previous behavior, it shows us what types of situations our preferred behavior isn't quite covering. As reinhard mentions elsewhere, the negative tracking gives us more information than the positive tracking (though positive tracking is more helpful at the beginning of developing a new behavior option).
I loved this sentence:
Supposedly, we each have a limited amount of mental energy available to us at any given time. We can spend that energy beating ourselves up, or we can take some time to figure out and implement possible alternative behaviors. Beating ourselves up is one habitual behavior, but over time we can learn to implement an alternative behavior (ie accepting that mistakes happen, accepting that we are human and thus are working with a number of complex and hidden processes, viewing a mistake/reversion as information to be considered, etc). And yes, it is a trial and error process (chicken-and-egg).Over time, I can learn to make better choices, but not if I expend my energy beating myself up for prior ones.Â
Blueskighs
For some reason, I love to see/hear comments like this. I'm not sure why. But I think it's because it's really energizing for me to see that someone is making positive changes in their life, particularly in a manner that's self-supportive and self-accepting rather than self-berating.There were three fairly significant needs that food was fulfilling for me that food is not "meant" to fulfill. I have been working on filling those needs more effectively wsithout food and I really think this has been a big part of my success on No S Diet.Â
I know first hand what kind of damage we can do with our self-berating and self-criticisms. It's usually more damage than the actual mistake could ever have done. Most often we didn't deliberately nor consciously choose our 'bad' habits. We developed them because they kept being successful in some way or another. Our mind/body was helping us, as best as it knew how at the time.
Few of us would ever berate or criticize a child for even half the mistakes that we make. Few of us would tell the child that there must be a part of them that doesn't want them to succeed, or that is trying to punish them for being bad, etc. It's unthinkable. Yet many of us do it to ourselves. We berate the part of us that is trying to help us, but only has a limited set of choices to help us with. Just as a child has to learn, so does our mind/body. Thankfully, as humans, we have the ability to review over these kinds of things and figure out and implement changes. And just as we would attempt to support a learning child, so to we can attempt to support our learning mind/bodies. Now, if only it didn't require so much trial and error, lol.
(sorry, those last paragraphs there weren't meant directly for you, blueskighs, but I'm leaving it in because the feelings of being energized are linked within me to the awareness of things I've done/said to myself and the things I see others say/do to themselves)
Betty
Regarding snack breaks and smoke breaks. When I was younger (17-21ish), I would get into trouble with some of my bosses because I'd get up and take a short walk inside the building, or go to the water fountain or go to the bathroom. I'd do this after finishing a fairly intense piece of work. For some reason, it was more acceptable that the secretary or such take a smoking break every 20-30 min or so, than it was for me to take a stress reducing break every 40-50 min or so. Amazingly enough, if they saw me with a cigarette in my hands as I headed out the door, they wouldn't say anything. And if ..uh…somehow…they thought I was trying to quit smoking, they were also more lenient. (dunno what could've given them the idea that I was trying to quit smoking *innocent look*)
Of course, this was 16 or so years ago. I'm not sure how much, if anything, has changed since I left the work force.
General
I wanted to make a comment. Emotional eating (ie when stressed or angry) and needing downtime/breaks are linked together, imo. We need ways of de-stressing, of reducing the stress levels to more personally acceptable levels. One person's stress level tolerance may be higher or lower than another's. There is no 'generally acceptable stress level'. It varies by person... and by situation.
One of the common ways of creating downtime or of relieving stress is to disassociate from it, even if it's only a temporary disassociation. We'll take a walking break, go to the bathroom, play solitaire on the computer, check email, chitchat with someone, check the stock market, exercise, and yes, even binge. For that small bit of time we ignore the demands of our environment…as well as temporarily shut up our nagging head voices. Those nagging head voices are creating just as much, if not more, stress than our environment is. Those nagging head voices are creating stress. The stress builds up. Then we do something to relieve the stress, to temporarily shut it out, and then when that shutting out behavior is over, our nagging head voices jump in and start creating stress again over the behavior we just used to shut it out. It's a downward spiral. Building up on the previous events, and making us feel bad over and over and over.
I wonder… if perhaps the 'self-sabotage' and 'self-punishment' isn't the binge eating, or the avoidance behaviors, or the disassociation behaviors…. I wonder if it's that nagging and berating voice in the head that should carry the label of 'saboteur', instead. Binge eating may cause physiological stress, but it's the self-berating that's causing most of the psychological stress…which may be causing us to binge/disassociate again and again from it.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
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BrightAngel
- Posts: 2093
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 pm
- Location: Central California
- Contact:
Anndelise,anndelise wrote:
I wonder… if perhaps the 'self-sabotage' and 'self-punishment' isn't the binge eating, or the avoidance behaviors, or the disassociation behaviors…. I wonder if it's that nagging and berating voice in the head that should carry the label of 'saboteur', instead. Binge eating may cause physiological stress, but it's the self-berating that's causing most of the psychological stress…which may be causing us to binge/disassociate again and again from it.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
I've had a lifetime of binge eating.
20 years of professional Therapy didn't resolve the activity,
however, it DID get rid of the "nagging and berating voice in the head".
Sometimes I still Binge. . in that I engage in emotional eating to excess..
However, it no longer is a form of "self-punishment",
and I don't hate myself for it.
I have learned to Accept
- that, to date, I have done all I can to fix the problem;
that I'll continue to work to resolve it as much as I can;
that this behavior is sometimes part of who I am; and
that I'm still okay even when I make that behaviour choice.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com
See: DietHobby. com
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blueskighs
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:11 am
- Location: California
In Shrink Yourself that voice is actually given a name, "Harriet" and they teach you how to confront "Harriet" and "grow her up" it is really interesting what a great effect it can have on your inner life,I wonder if it's that nagging and berating voice in the head that should carry the label of 'saboteur', instead
I have often heard binging as "self-punishing" and it took a lot of healing for me to understand just how MEAN that I am being to myself when I binge,
great discussion,
Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey
BrightAngel wrote:Anndelise,anndelise wrote:
I wonder… if perhaps the 'self-sabotage' and 'self-punishment' isn't the binge eating, or the avoidance behaviors, or the disassociation behaviors…. I wonder if it's that nagging and berating voice in the head that should carry the label of 'saboteur', instead. Binge eating may cause physiological stress, but it's the self-berating that's causing most of the psychological stress…which may be causing us to binge/disassociate again and again from it.
Anyone have any ideas on that?
I've had a lifetime of binge eating.
20 years of professional Therapy didn't resolve the activity,
however, it DID get rid of the "nagging and berating voice in the head".
Sometimes I still Binge. . in that I engage in emotional eating to excess..
However, it no longer is a form of "self-punishment",
and I don't hate myself for it.
I have learned to Accept
- that, to date, I have done all I can to fix the problem;
that I'll continue to work to resolve it as much as I can;
that this behavior is sometimes part of who I am; and
that I'm still okay even when I make that behaviour choice.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Even though sometimes I do so well that I wonder why on earth I ever had the urge to binge, I occasionally fall back off the wagon. My binging behaviour is always going to be a part of me, lurking in the background and waiting for me to slip up and I have to learn to accept that.
