Okay...I think I know the answer to this, but I figured I'd check.
Friday, an N day, I was at an Expo for a marathon (the marathon was on Saturday, a definite S day!). I got too hungry, hadn't had lunch, and finally gave in to my hunger and started eating all the free samples. I then treated the rest of the day as an S day. But, I hadn't planned for it to be an S day. So, my question is: in my Habit Cal, I should call it a "failure," yes? I can't turn it into a Non Weekend S day, can I? It was SO nice to have all those greens and yellows, and No reds, but I think it's time for a red.
Can I make an N-day-failure an S day?
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Oooh...I just skimmed the thread about Kathleen's modification about making failure-proof S days. I like that. If I use this modification, seems like a good way to avoid "failures" in the future. But, for now, seems like I should just go ahead and call that Friday a "failure" and turn the square RED. (or some word like failure that doesn't seem quite so strong..perhaps it was a "non-success" day. Or a "day-to-learn" from. )
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SassyInkPen
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I think it all depends on what it will do to your motivation.
Kathleen developed the mod because she knows that a "failure" day would quite likely send her off plan. (I believe that's how I read it) So she gives herself a "save" that allows her get on with the plan.
For me, on the other hand - if I did what you're suggesting: Caved in and then decided to call it an S day....I know that would set me up to start making all kinds of bargains and deals - which would ultimately unravel into me not doing the plan at all.
Sassy
Kathleen developed the mod because she knows that a "failure" day would quite likely send her off plan. (I believe that's how I read it) So she gives herself a "save" that allows her get on with the plan.
For me, on the other hand - if I did what you're suggesting: Caved in and then decided to call it an S day....I know that would set me up to start making all kinds of bargains and deals - which would ultimately unravel into me not doing the plan at all.
Sassy
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blueskighs
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For me the point of habitcal is to record an honest assessment for me of my progress,
I think Kathleen's modification is great. She has set it up that way, to allow herself to take her NWS days as she pleases.
I plan my NWS days because that is what works for me, and for me, I beleive the discipline of N days is the crux of the success for the No S Diet.
The point being is not whether or not I mark my squares red, the heart of the matter is am I building solid new habits or not? If you plan for "impulsive" eating as Kathleen does I think that would be effective.
If you do like I do and plan the NWS days then any impulsive eating I do is red.
A lot of No S is learning about ourselves. WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO AS INDIVIDUALS? I can pretty much identify when I will need an NWS day. I do take birthday's, wedding anniversary and national holiday's. But since our family is small I still can have extra NWS days. One day I planned an NWS day because I was having a friend over for lunch. That was Special for me. I have taken 0, 1, 2, 3 up to 4 NWS days per month but the average is 2 per month.
I think it's just being honest with yourself. If you are going to "use" Kathleen's plan which I think is very legit, I would decide to use it BEFORE the act of spontaneous eating and not after. Otherwise, I would be more generous with my NWS days and on days like you had Friday just anticipate and plan ahead for it.
That being said, most people have figured out I am a stickler for "green days" because that is what has been most effective in not only being successful on NO S but really spreading out a lot of good juju to all other areas of my life. On the NO S diet I have learned how powerful DISCIPLINE is.
Good Luck with however you decide to handle it, I think the point is to just be honest with yourself,
Blueskighs
I think Kathleen's modification is great. She has set it up that way, to allow herself to take her NWS days as she pleases.
I plan my NWS days because that is what works for me, and for me, I beleive the discipline of N days is the crux of the success for the No S Diet.
The point being is not whether or not I mark my squares red, the heart of the matter is am I building solid new habits or not? If you plan for "impulsive" eating as Kathleen does I think that would be effective.
If you do like I do and plan the NWS days then any impulsive eating I do is red.
A lot of No S is learning about ourselves. WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO AS INDIVIDUALS? I can pretty much identify when I will need an NWS day. I do take birthday's, wedding anniversary and national holiday's. But since our family is small I still can have extra NWS days. One day I planned an NWS day because I was having a friend over for lunch. That was Special for me. I have taken 0, 1, 2, 3 up to 4 NWS days per month but the average is 2 per month.
I think it's just being honest with yourself. If you are going to "use" Kathleen's plan which I think is very legit, I would decide to use it BEFORE the act of spontaneous eating and not after. Otherwise, I would be more generous with my NWS days and on days like you had Friday just anticipate and plan ahead for it.
That being said, most people have figured out I am a stickler for "green days" because that is what has been most effective in not only being successful on NO S but really spreading out a lot of good juju to all other areas of my life. On the NO S diet I have learned how powerful DISCIPLINE is.
Good Luck with however you decide to handle it, I think the point is to just be honest with yourself,
Blueskighs
www.nosdiet.blogspot.com Where I blog daily about my No S journey
KAxelrod,
Here's a post I have on my daily Check In thread:
I put my kids on the No Sweets portion of the diet. My 9 year old and 7 year old were being taken home from school, and they had a conversation with me that reveals human nature only too well:
Katie (9 year old): It's a Super Hot day, so it's a Special Day.
Ellie (7): Hey, we could watch Superman, and then it would be a Superman Day.
Katie: I told my friends about this at lunch, and they said it was stupid.
Ellie: Stupid starts with an "S". Wait a minute. I'm sick. It's a Sick Day!
Katie: This is stupid. Your kids want to be sick.
Ellie: We're going by Starbucks. Starbucks starts with an "S". It could be a Starbucks Day.
This is exactly why I'm allocating two Special Days per month.
Kathleen
To me, it can get very dicey to try to figure out whether you have an N Day failure or a Special Day. Human nature being what it is, I can justify A LOT. As a mother, I can create Special Days just by deciding we need a special celebration for a child's achievements.
I circumvented the whole issue by making it not relevant whether or not I have an actual Special Day or an N Day where I don't follow the rules. Either way, the day becomes a Special Day and uses one of my allocated NWS Days. I bank two NWS Days per month, to be used however I want.
Kathleen
Here's a post I have on my daily Check In thread:
I put my kids on the No Sweets portion of the diet. My 9 year old and 7 year old were being taken home from school, and they had a conversation with me that reveals human nature only too well:
Katie (9 year old): It's a Super Hot day, so it's a Special Day.
Ellie (7): Hey, we could watch Superman, and then it would be a Superman Day.
Katie: I told my friends about this at lunch, and they said it was stupid.
Ellie: Stupid starts with an "S". Wait a minute. I'm sick. It's a Sick Day!
Katie: This is stupid. Your kids want to be sick.
Ellie: We're going by Starbucks. Starbucks starts with an "S". It could be a Starbucks Day.
This is exactly why I'm allocating two Special Days per month.
Kathleen
To me, it can get very dicey to try to figure out whether you have an N Day failure or a Special Day. Human nature being what it is, I can justify A LOT. As a mother, I can create Special Days just by deciding we need a special celebration for a child's achievements.
I circumvented the whole issue by making it not relevant whether or not I have an actual Special Day or an N Day where I don't follow the rules. Either way, the day becomes a Special Day and uses one of my allocated NWS Days. I bank two NWS Days per month, to be used however I want.
Kathleen
Last edited by Kathleen on Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SassyInkPen
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Oh Kathleen - this is hyseterical!! I just about died laughing.
It's perfect, too, because that's exactly what would start going on in my head if I allowed myself to make changes on the fly. Snickers starts with S!!......
It's perfect, too, because that's exactly what would start going on in my head if I allowed myself to make changes on the fly. Snickers starts with S!!......
Kathleen wrote:Katie (9 year old): It's a Super Hot day, so it's a Special Day.
Ellie (7): Hey, we could watch Superman, and then it would be a Superman Day.
Katie: I told my friends about this at lunch, and they said it was stupid.
Ellie: Stupid starts with an "S". Wait a minute. I'm sick. It's a Sick Day!
Katie: This is stupid. Your kids want to be sick.
Ellie: We're going by Starbucks. Starbucks starts with an "S". It could be a Starbucks Day.
Thank you, SassyInkPen, Kathleen, Blueskighs, for your words (and humor).
I guessit is about me being honest with myself and figuring out what works for me. I feel fine designating certain week days "S," but I think I have to "plan" it, rather than let it happen. I knew that being at that Expo with tons of free food (some of it was wretched training bars, but some of it was popcorn and other tempting things) was going to be a temptation for me. I could have, on Friday morning, designated it an S day. But I didn't. I think giving myself my first red square won't derail my motivation. It's an opportunity to figure out what to do the next time I'm in a similar situation.
Thanks, all!
I guessit is about me being honest with myself and figuring out what works for me. I feel fine designating certain week days "S," but I think I have to "plan" it, rather than let it happen. I knew that being at that Expo with tons of free food (some of it was wretched training bars, but some of it was popcorn and other tempting things) was going to be a temptation for me. I could have, on Friday morning, designated it an S day. But I didn't. I think giving myself my first red square won't derail my motivation. It's an opportunity to figure out what to do the next time I'm in a similar situation.
Thanks, all!
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CrazyCatLady
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- Location: Illinois
I think you made the right choice, KAxelrod. Those reds hurt, I know, but we do learn from them.
Kathleen, we have had so many of those conversations at my house...
But Mom, we don't go out for ice cream that often, doesn't that make it a special day?
It's my friend's birthday, it should be an S day for you!
Or they will bring me some great treat to share, and then ask if it is an S day! LOL!
Kathleen, we have had so many of those conversations at my house...
But Mom, we don't go out for ice cream that often, doesn't that make it a special day?
It's my friend's birthday, it should be an S day for you!
Or they will bring me some great treat to share, and then ask if it is an S day! LOL!
Under "orthodox" No-s, you should probably count it as a failure (or simply "red" if the word failure bugs you). Some people (most recently/notably Kathleen) practice a modified version of No-s that allows some wiggle room between "special" and "failure."
Though I think Kathleen's mod might be very helpful for her any perhaps many others, I think most people will have more success with the orthodox position, and you hit the rationale for it right on the nose:
Reinhard
Though I think Kathleen's mod might be very helpful for her any perhaps many others, I think most people will have more success with the orthodox position, and you hit the rationale for it right on the nose:
Red squares can be a good thing, if you use them right. They give more integrity to your yellow and green.I guessit is about me being honest with myself and figuring out what works for me. I feel fine designating certain week days "S," but I think I have to "plan" it, rather than let it happen. I knew that being at that Expo with tons of free food (some of it was wretched training bars, but some of it was popcorn and other tempting things) was going to be a temptation for me. I could have, on Friday morning, designated it an S day. But I didn't. I think giving myself my first red square won't derail my motivation. It's an opportunity to figure out what to do the next time I'm in a similar situation.
Reinhard
Reinhard,
I think there might be people (like me) for whom one failure might mean a disaster -- a higher likelihood of failures in the following days, discouragement, and quitting the diet. Some people can drink alcohol and have no problems. Others have one drink and cannot stop. When it comes to diets, I'm like the person who has one drink and cannot stop. For me, there is a long history of going three calories over a set caloric limit for a diet and inhaling hundreds of calories in the following minutes.
I've been following this unorthodox approach of accumulating Special Days for a month and have had no unplanned NWS. What I've noticed is that I am no longer "on edge" thinking that I am "one bite" away from failure. Right now, I have an accumulation of three Special Days. When I am faced with a grocery store taste test, which has been the downfall of many of my diets, I know that I have the choice of whether to spend a Special Day on it or not. So far, I've decided one grocery store taste test just isn't worth the use of Special Days! With my other diets and with the orthodox No S, one taste test would mean failure. Would it mean disaster -- a descent into overeating? I don't know. By following this approach of accumulating Special Days to use whenever I want, I hope never to find out what would happen if I record a failure!
Kathleen
I think there might be people (like me) for whom one failure might mean a disaster -- a higher likelihood of failures in the following days, discouragement, and quitting the diet. Some people can drink alcohol and have no problems. Others have one drink and cannot stop. When it comes to diets, I'm like the person who has one drink and cannot stop. For me, there is a long history of going three calories over a set caloric limit for a diet and inhaling hundreds of calories in the following minutes.
I've been following this unorthodox approach of accumulating Special Days for a month and have had no unplanned NWS. What I've noticed is that I am no longer "on edge" thinking that I am "one bite" away from failure. Right now, I have an accumulation of three Special Days. When I am faced with a grocery store taste test, which has been the downfall of many of my diets, I know that I have the choice of whether to spend a Special Day on it or not. So far, I've decided one grocery store taste test just isn't worth the use of Special Days! With my other diets and with the orthodox No S, one taste test would mean failure. Would it mean disaster -- a descent into overeating? I don't know. By following this approach of accumulating Special Days to use whenever I want, I hope never to find out what would happen if I record a failure!
Kathleen
Kathleen,
I also had a lot of trouble with the "Failure" bit. I consider myself a "recovering perfectionist," and the word "failure" hit a lot of buttons. It's the same dynamic you describe - if I'm not perfect, I've failed, so may as well give up.
Working with No-S has helped me a great deal in this regard, and has reinforced some other strategies. I believe I've made great strides in the last 2 years, and wish you the same kind of progress.
To me, it's a real accomplishment to be able to "mark it and move on" when I do have a failure.
I think I've already recommended the "strictness" podcast to you. The other "cure for perfectionism" that I think is incredibly powerful is to find something you enjoy doing that lends itself to regular practice. Crafts, learning a language or a new skill (like a musical instrument) are all good choices. Practice it regularly - say, 4 days a week - but for a LIMITED TIME. (Like, 30 minutes.) The goals are (1) to reinforce the accumulation of regular, small efforts, (2) to normalize the awkward beginning stages that EVERYONE has to go through when learning, and (3) to trust yourself to build habit. Oh, and to prevent the "burnout syndrome" that happens when one throws oneself into a new project at an unsustainable level. (The limits are important.)
I'm off-topic and rambling, but wish you well.
KCCC
I also had a lot of trouble with the "Failure" bit. I consider myself a "recovering perfectionist," and the word "failure" hit a lot of buttons. It's the same dynamic you describe - if I'm not perfect, I've failed, so may as well give up.
Working with No-S has helped me a great deal in this regard, and has reinforced some other strategies. I believe I've made great strides in the last 2 years, and wish you the same kind of progress.
To me, it's a real accomplishment to be able to "mark it and move on" when I do have a failure.
I think I've already recommended the "strictness" podcast to you. The other "cure for perfectionism" that I think is incredibly powerful is to find something you enjoy doing that lends itself to regular practice. Crafts, learning a language or a new skill (like a musical instrument) are all good choices. Practice it regularly - say, 4 days a week - but for a LIMITED TIME. (Like, 30 minutes.) The goals are (1) to reinforce the accumulation of regular, small efforts, (2) to normalize the awkward beginning stages that EVERYONE has to go through when learning, and (3) to trust yourself to build habit. Oh, and to prevent the "burnout syndrome" that happens when one throws oneself into a new project at an unsustainable level. (The limits are important.)
I'm off-topic and rambling, but wish you well.
KCCC
KCCC,
I've spent some time thinking about this, and generally I think perfectionism is a bad thing. I have a very bright, very motivated and very hardworking child who was on the Math Team when she was in fifth grade. She had a midquarter grade of D+ in math because she hadn't handed in four homework assignments on time. She was devastated. It was as if her life had ended. She managed to pull her grade up to a B for the quarter, and she learned a valuable lesson about being able to take some bumps in the road and still go on. She's a straight A student now in 9th grade, but she no longer has that sense that one bad grade will ruin her life.
I have that roll with the punches with many aspects of my life. For example, with exercise, I will miss a day but that doesn't bother me. I don't even consider it a failure. My goal is to exercise three times per week, and sometimes other things come up. Fine.
For some things, of course, being a perfectionist is perfectly OK. I am a perfectionist when it comes to being faithful to my husband, for example.
Is it appropriate for dieting to be something that is perfectionistic? Probably not. In fact, definitely not. It is downright silly that I would fail at calorie counting diets because I went three calories over the limit.
What do I do? How do I change this? I don't know. This attitude has been ingrained in me from years of working on diets, failing, and moving to another diet.
Rather than try to change my attitude, I changed the diet! It seems to be working for me. I just feel very relaxed about it. At this point, I have an accumulation of three Special Days. If I fail on an N Day, I don't consider it a failure. Instead, I consider it a poor use of an S Day. It may seem like being dishonest with myself, but heck -- I've lost 9 pounds in six weeks! All I've seen is my weight go up and up and up. It's really gratifying to see the weight go down.
I have spent a lot of time blogging on this diet since I began on September 8th, but I am feeling less and less like I need it. In the beginning, getting through an N Day was sheer torture. Now it seems to be routine. Even with a perfectionistic attitude towards dieting, having a bank of Special Days to use for an N Day failure makes me feel very calm about following this program.
Kathleen
PS. I did listen to the podcast on strictness, and it was very helpful. What I am finding is that I don't even think about food unless it is mealtime. With my prior diet, I was constantly asking myself if I was hungry.
I've spent some time thinking about this, and generally I think perfectionism is a bad thing. I have a very bright, very motivated and very hardworking child who was on the Math Team when she was in fifth grade. She had a midquarter grade of D+ in math because she hadn't handed in four homework assignments on time. She was devastated. It was as if her life had ended. She managed to pull her grade up to a B for the quarter, and she learned a valuable lesson about being able to take some bumps in the road and still go on. She's a straight A student now in 9th grade, but she no longer has that sense that one bad grade will ruin her life.
I have that roll with the punches with many aspects of my life. For example, with exercise, I will miss a day but that doesn't bother me. I don't even consider it a failure. My goal is to exercise three times per week, and sometimes other things come up. Fine.
For some things, of course, being a perfectionist is perfectly OK. I am a perfectionist when it comes to being faithful to my husband, for example.
Is it appropriate for dieting to be something that is perfectionistic? Probably not. In fact, definitely not. It is downright silly that I would fail at calorie counting diets because I went three calories over the limit.
What do I do? How do I change this? I don't know. This attitude has been ingrained in me from years of working on diets, failing, and moving to another diet.
Rather than try to change my attitude, I changed the diet! It seems to be working for me. I just feel very relaxed about it. At this point, I have an accumulation of three Special Days. If I fail on an N Day, I don't consider it a failure. Instead, I consider it a poor use of an S Day. It may seem like being dishonest with myself, but heck -- I've lost 9 pounds in six weeks! All I've seen is my weight go up and up and up. It's really gratifying to see the weight go down.
I have spent a lot of time blogging on this diet since I began on September 8th, but I am feeling less and less like I need it. In the beginning, getting through an N Day was sheer torture. Now it seems to be routine. Even with a perfectionistic attitude towards dieting, having a bank of Special Days to use for an N Day failure makes me feel very calm about following this program.
Kathleen
PS. I did listen to the podcast on strictness, and it was very helpful. What I am finding is that I don't even think about food unless it is mealtime. With my prior diet, I was constantly asking myself if I was hungry.
Yes, perfectionism IS a bad thing. (In general. There are places for it.) It took me a long time to figure that out, though!Kathleen wrote: I've spent some time thinking about this, and generally I think perfectionism is a bad thing.....
PS. I did listen to the podcast on strictness, and it was very helpful. What I am finding is that I don't even think about food unless it is mealtime. With my prior diet, I was constantly asking myself if I was hungry.
It sounds as if you've figured it out, and didn't need my ramblings.
I totally agree with you on the relief of not thinking about food when it's not time to eat. When I was on WW, I was constantly "bargaining"... "if I don't eat this, I can have that later... I can eat this now, and just skip my next meal..." (Uh-huh. Like that would happen.) Until No-S, I never realized how much energy was wasted in that kind of mental chatter! It's so nice to turn it off.
I love not having to decide if I'm "truly" hungry or "emotionally" hungry or "spiritually" hungry! It's either meal time or it isn't, move on! LOL! I do sometimes get hungry & think about food between meals, and today, because it was a rough day for me, I did think, "if this was an S day, or my "former life," LOL, I'd be out buying xyz snacks for sure!"Kathleen wrote:What I am finding is that I don't even think about food unless it is mealtime. With my prior diet, I was constantly asking myself if I was hungry.
Instead I've been reading a good book & played a game with my daughter!
Merry
Homeschool Mom and No S returnee as of 11-30-15.
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
Respect Moderation
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
Respect Moderation
KCCC,
Yes, I agree that perfectionism is a bad thing. If I didn't have perfectionism when it came to food, would I even have a weight problem?
I tried the Intuitive Eating approach of not using perfectionism when it comes to food and allowing myself "unconditional permission to eat." My husband tried very hard to bite his tongue, but he didn't always succeed. He thought the diet was "so ridiculous it was funny." Now, from his standpoint, I was following a weight loss theory that allowed his wife, who had gained 50 pounds in the prior six years, to eat as much as she wants whenever she wants and whatever she wants.
Had I continued down that path, would I eventually learn not to be a perfectionist and lose weight? That's the idea. However, I'm not willing to take the risk. I don't want to waste any more time of my life worrying about eating.
This diet is not the path to being a "naturally thin" person who can eat whatever she wants whenever she wants and in whatever quantity she wants. This diet is a way for me, as a person who has become obese, to lose weight and keep it off with a minimum of effort so that I can turn my focus to other areas of my life, especially my family. To me, it's worth giving up the ideal of becoming "naturally thin", accepting whatever it was within me that turned food into something requiring "perfect compliance" with some set of eating rules, follow a No Hassle way of losing weight, and enjoy my life!
Kathleen
Merry,
I'm with you on being elated that I don't have to be belly-gazing to determine if I am emotionally hungry, physically hungry, spiritually hungry, or hungry because food is around. Time and attention to my husband and our precious four children is so much more gratifying than worrying about dieting. One of the proponets of the "eat when you're hungry" approach has a tag line about "being let out of diet prison." I know I'm on a diet that I accept for the rest of my life, but I still feel like I'm out of prison because the focus of my life does not need to be food, weight, or dieting. Yippee!!!
Kathleen
Yes, I agree that perfectionism is a bad thing. If I didn't have perfectionism when it came to food, would I even have a weight problem?
I tried the Intuitive Eating approach of not using perfectionism when it comes to food and allowing myself "unconditional permission to eat." My husband tried very hard to bite his tongue, but he didn't always succeed. He thought the diet was "so ridiculous it was funny." Now, from his standpoint, I was following a weight loss theory that allowed his wife, who had gained 50 pounds in the prior six years, to eat as much as she wants whenever she wants and whatever she wants.
Had I continued down that path, would I eventually learn not to be a perfectionist and lose weight? That's the idea. However, I'm not willing to take the risk. I don't want to waste any more time of my life worrying about eating.
This diet is not the path to being a "naturally thin" person who can eat whatever she wants whenever she wants and in whatever quantity she wants. This diet is a way for me, as a person who has become obese, to lose weight and keep it off with a minimum of effort so that I can turn my focus to other areas of my life, especially my family. To me, it's worth giving up the ideal of becoming "naturally thin", accepting whatever it was within me that turned food into something requiring "perfect compliance" with some set of eating rules, follow a No Hassle way of losing weight, and enjoy my life!
Kathleen
Merry,
I'm with you on being elated that I don't have to be belly-gazing to determine if I am emotionally hungry, physically hungry, spiritually hungry, or hungry because food is around. Time and attention to my husband and our precious four children is so much more gratifying than worrying about dieting. One of the proponets of the "eat when you're hungry" approach has a tag line about "being let out of diet prison." I know I'm on a diet that I accept for the rest of my life, but I still feel like I'm out of prison because the focus of my life does not need to be food, weight, or dieting. Yippee!!!
Kathleen