More thoughts on "Failure"...

No Snacks, no sweets, no seconds. Except on Days that start with S. Too simple for you? Simple is why it works. Look here for questions, introductions, support, success stories.

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howfunisthat
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More thoughts on "Failure"...

Post by howfunisthat » Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:39 pm

I've read so many posts about people being discouraged...and sad...and struggling. So I've been thinking a lot about what we consider to be failures.

I've been on a diet almost non-stop for 43 years. I was 5 when a doctor told me I should lose 5 pounds. Since then I've tried & given up on everything before this. I've been "No S"ing since early August and am absolutely convinced this is the way for me to be healed of all that poor eating and even poorer diet choices. So...needless to say, I have habits to change...43 years of habits...a heap of habits!

I, like many of us, get discouraged easily....I get discouraged if the jeans I THINK I SHOULD be able to wear are still tight....if the scale says something I don't like...if I realize that I am staring into the pantry at the microwave popcorn and still trying unsuccessfully to figure out how to eat it in the middle of the day and justify it...or when I eat more than I feel I should on an "S" day. But here's the thing...as I walk down this road, I'm beginning to get it. I'm beginning to realize that it took me 48 years to get to be who I am. I am absolutely not going to be able to change every habit in just a few months. AND...the habits we're trying to break are not just the physical ones of what & when we eat...we are trying to break the more gripping emotional habits formed over years. That just isn't going to happen for me...or for many people overnight. But that's okay! Every time I walk out of the kitchen without a snack...every time I DON'T drive into the drive through at a fast food restaurant in the middle of the day...every time I choose to say "No" to the ice cream calling my name, I am changing. I get discouraged that the changes aren't faster...aren't more dramatic...well...like those awful commercials that claim fast weight loss! Yes, I know...I know....believing those is like believing in a product that would clean my house for me! (But if anyone DOES know of a self-cleaning house, please clue me in!). We're so conditioned to believe that if we eat something we shouldn't or if we fall of the culinary wagon then we have failed. Nope....we're not failures...not one of us. We're striving to eat better & be healthier...and that's NOT in the "Failure" category.

I'm not writing this to encourage myself....'cause I'm really pretty encouraged right now...and I'm not writing this to try and convince anyone that we're on the right path...I'm writing this because we are too often very, very hard on ourselves and doing that can sabotage and sidetrack us so often. I know I'm like many of you...I'm so much kinder and encouraging to other people than I am to myself. I'm trying to do something really hard! We're ALL trying to do something really hard...so if you had a day where you said "No" to one extra bite....or a snack...or a Hershey's kiss...or a milkshake, or a second helping of lentil soup....you've had a great day! And if you struggled today & didn't stay on the Plan....you're STILL not a failure....brush yourself off & start over 'cause you CAN.

Okay...I'm done...I didn't really mean this to be a pep talk or anything, but once I get started it's hard to stop! LOL....

This journey might take me a long time...but I'm going to win. We can all win.

janie
Nothing worthwhile is ever easy...

connorcream
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Post by connorcream » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:04 am

janie-
Excellent post.

I didn't gain a pound over the holidays, I enjoyed the holidays guilt free and I feel extremely pleased with that success. While everyone was eating and picking it apart for whatever culinary/dietary reason, I was not part of that conversation.

blues was right. Keep the green days green, and the rest of the days work themselves out.

I have also found hulu to watch tv shows on. Wee don't have cable/dish, etc...So one segment of a show between commercials is about 14 minutes. Shovelglove is back in on my habitcal.
connorcream
5'8.5"
48 yrs
Started calorie counting
10/6/2009
start/current
192/mid 120's maintaining
Maintaining a year

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:17 pm

I haven't lost weight in six weeks, and that is discouraging. It was good to read your post this morning because I have been dieting since about age 17, and I'm 50. All it got me was 70 extra pounds.

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FarmerHal
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Post by FarmerHal » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:54 pm

Oy. I feel ya. I was put on my first diet in the 2nd grade and I'm 31 now, the struggle continues.

Somehow weight became theonly way to self-worth for me, because it was made into such a huge deal for me by my mom. Oh well.

Thanks for the post!
{FarmerHal} ...previously Shamrockmommy...
Vanilla NoS... Making good habits.
Restart 12/2015, size 22
3/2016 size 18
1/2018 size 18

howfunisthat
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Post by howfunisthat » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:25 pm

Tiffani...

It was a huge deal in our family too. I always wanted my parents to be proud of me...but that never happened. I think weight was so important to them. I know they meant well & didn't want me to struggle with it, but as a result of the emphasis on it, it became bigger than life!

We're making progress though....here's to better health this year!

janie
Nothing worthwhile is ever easy...

lmt2pt
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Post by lmt2pt » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:37 pm

The longer I No S the more I understand on a deep level that the only way to success is through failure. As long as I acknowledge the failure, color it red, and try to do better next time I keep moving to success.

This is why I feel the need when new members say how much they want to lose in what time that they need to change their expectations and why I recommend starting on an S day. Failure really is part of the process, an important part.
Heather

kccc
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Post by kccc » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:17 am

Janie, that was a great post.

I think one of the things that I have found MOST helpful in No-S is the acceptance of failure. "Mark it and move on" is a mantra that I got from vmsurbat (see "catch-phrase" sticky thread). It is a GREAT attitude that has taken me years to learn... and is applicable to so many areas of life beyond weight-control!

My other well-worn phrase is "be gentle with yourself" - an idea that you and lmt2pt have captured very eloquently.

(Btw, lmt2pt, I'm glad to see you back.)

Cheers,

KCCC

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:10 pm

This diet would end for me if I had a failure. I don't have failures because I accumulate exception days (two weekday exceptions per month) to be used whenever I want and for whatever reason I want. On Wednesday, I could feel that I had bad breath, so I took an exception day and bought Certs. I would never make it on vanilla No S because one failure would lead to another and another...

I think the way to make this diet easy is to make it a habit that is followed with perfect compliance, like the habit of brushing your teeth every morning. Zero tolerance for failures.

Kathleen

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BrightAngel
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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:44 pm

Kathleen wrote:This diet would end for me if I had a failure.
I would never make it on vanilla No S because one failure would lead to another and another...

I think the way to make this diet easy is to make it a habit that is followed with perfect compliance,
like the habit of brushing your teeth every morning.
Zero tolerance for failures.

Kathleen
Kathleen,
I am like you in that I do not do well with the negative concept of "Failure".
My focus always needs to be Positive.

It's no secret that my primary method is calorie counting, using my DietPower software food journal
while incorporating other Ways-Of-Eating, including NoS principles.
Some days I have a calorie count way higher than my calorie burn.
It happens. I Acknowledge it. I Accept it. And I Move on.
BUT I do not consider it to be a "Failure".

A matter of Semantics? Yes, I believe so.
However, specific words can have enormous impact on specific people.
The same word can have a negative or positive impact, depending on the individual.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:07 pm

BrightAngel,
What I think about "perfect compliance" is that it is the key to making the diet easy. I don't even think about food during the week when it is not mealtime, and I routinely eat breakfast before 7 and lunch after 2. How could that be? To me, the reason is what Reinhard described as "You're pre-disapproved." Sure, I can use an Exception Day if I want to eat outside of meals on N Days, but then I have to spend from a limited budget which is currently at 4. Do I really want to do that? On Wednesday, I did. Failure just isn't part of this diet for me. In fact, I've stopped recording N Days as successes. They simply are successes or they are E Days (Exception Days).
Kathleen

Spook
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Post by Spook » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:48 am

Check out Reinhard's podcast on the subject of failure - it's excellent.

I do think that, for me, the word 'failure' doesn't conjure up some of the negative feelings that it seems to for others. I'm happy to chalk up a fail on the calendar and move on - in fact it gives me added motivation the next day. I think the key is to set manageable goals, so that you don't 'fail' very often!

And if you don't like the terminology, or it has negative connotations for you, then change it - as BrightAngel says, it's just a matter of semantics, but it's still important psychologically.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:58 pm

Spook,
Reinhard's podcast on failure presents a different approach than mine. I made the comparison between no failure on this diet to no failure on infidelity. It's jarring, of course, but the point is that any failure weakens the habit of following N Day rules.

I wanted to have a diet which was as effortless as brushing my teeth. What makes that habit effortless? Well, I am 100% compliant with the habit of brushing my teeth in the morning. I never debate whether or not to brush my teeth.

With Reinhard's approach, there is what he calls "high contrast" between N Day rules and not following N Day rules. Where I think there isn't high contrast is in the definition of non weekend S Days, and that's where I set up a rule of two per month to be used however I want and to be used before declaring an N Day a failure.

On Wednesday, I could just feel my breath -- too much coffee. I didn't have a toothbrush. I went so far as to ask someone I had just met if she knew where I could get mints. My choice at that point was to live with it until I got home, to go downstairs and buy some breath mints, or to travel to a store and buy a toothbrush and toothpaste. At that point, it was worth it for me to use one of my two exceptions per month to have those breath mints.

What I see in reading about other people's experiences is that they can get into situations where they have not declared a Special Day but then the sister in law produces a wonderful pie for after dinner or the meal is delayed until late or some other circumstance comes up that is unexpected. That's where failure is more likely.

For me, I just use up one of my accumulated exception days. Reinhard says to try to stay at or below two non weekend S Days per month. I've allocated myself two per month.

I'm using his theory but in a way that I don't have to have failures.

Kathleen

Spook
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Post by Spook » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:45 pm

Hi Kathleen,

I think your exception day rule does make a lot of sense in that it provides a 'buffer' to failure - in effect you can break the rules of the diet at no 'cost', on a very occasional basis, allowing you to deal with the unexpected situations that life throws at us; those situations where, under 'pure' No S, the only option is to 'fail', but using exception days you can re-classify that failure in a way that allows you to remain more positive.

It seems to me, though, that it really is just a matter of terminology. It's basically no different to saying "I'm going to allow myself two failures per month" but renaming the failures as exceptions. For me, it would take something away from the most important thing about No S - it's simplicity. Having to track the number of exception days used so far, as simple as it may sound, is just one more added complexity which I would seek to avoid.

Personally, I really have no problem with red days on my calendar - they just allow me to see that I need to improve. As long as you don't set the bar so high that the amount of failure becomes really demoralizing, I think it can be quite motivating to look at the calendar and set myself a goal such as 'next week/month/year I'm going to have less fails'.

I think it's all about having a positive view of failure - I think this is a good thing for life in general. I view 'failure' as inevitable, unavoidable and inexpensive. Nobody is perfect; we all make mistakes from time to time, so it's better to accept that things go wrong and be able to let the 'failure' wash over you and start afresh the next day.

With regards to the infidelity analogy - the true cost of one day's failure on No S, in the long run, is pretty low. The potential cost of one day's infidelity - in most relationships - is extremely high. So failure on infidelity is a really big deal, and failure on No S is less so. There are different types of failure, some important and some not.

Anyway - at the end of the day, if it works for you, then, by definition, it must be a good thing - and that's all that matters.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:01 pm

Spook,

It certainly is a stretch to compare one failure on No S to infidelity, but what they have in common is the breaking of a habit. What Reinhard does is allow for non weekend Special Days that he has determined ahead of time as being your birthday, national holidays, etc. He recommends no more than two per month. I think I make it simpler by saying that it doesn't matter when those days are used. You have two per month, and you can use them however you want.

I try hard to teach my kids "resiliency." My youngest parrotted my words once when I did something -- "That's OK. Everyone makes mistakes." I think that seom things are worth doing perfectly. What's nice about the approach I've taken is that the hassle factor of dieting is negligible. I had breakfast today at 7 and lunch at about 2:30, and I didn't think about food at all. It's nice after years of obsessing about y weight and my food intake.

As you said, it works for me. I just have to be patient and wait for the results to come. About 10 pounds down and 70 more to go!

Kathleen

TexArk
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More thoughts

Post by TexArk » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:14 pm

Wow Kathleen,
I thought I was very strict with my N days, but the thought of a breath mint making an N day a failure would never have crossed my mind. We are an interesting group of individuals here and I think most of us have had many, many failures along the dieting path and now we are having to work out our best plan to establish new habits and build success. I don't care what anyone wants to call a day where they did not stay inside the NoS boundaries as long as we are not engaging in fuzzy thinking; I have to call it something or I am fooling myself.

I teach my students that making mistakes is part of the learning process. I must give them material that they will have to struggle a little with, otherwise they will not grow. There are some who just fall apart when they make a mistake, and these are college students. Some are nontraditional (older students) and they are the worst about not handling mistakes.
If we set the bar too high (one of those all or nothing diets) then the frustration is too great for growth/learning to occur. That is why I like this plan so much. The bar is high, but achieveable and sustainable. If (when) I fail, I have to listen to exactly what I tell my students. I have to be as kind to myself as I am to them. Also, we get to look at our successes not just our failures (HabitCal), and successes can snowball!

Here are a few quotes I use:

"Failures are but mileposts on the road to success." (Italian proverb)
"Failure is an event, never a person." (William D. Brown)
"Never confuse a single defeat, with a final defeat." (F. Scott Fitzgerald)

And as others have said, we come to wisdom through failure.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:30 pm

I'm on a completely different page. I'm not looking at this as success or failure. Instead, I'm looking at it as building a habit. I have a habit of brushing my teeth in the morning. Nothing terrible would happen if I didn't brush my teeth, but I would feel very uncomfortable all day if I didn't brush my teeth. I don't evaluate whether or not I am a SUCCESS at brushing my teeth! It is just what I do.

That is basically how I would like to handle dieting. With this approach, I have to maintain a record of how many Exception Days I have. That's it. It's pretty easy.

Oh, and as long as it was an Exception Day, I had the entire package of Certs plus, when I got home that night, I had two clementines. It was a fairly tame S Day.

I guess I just don't want to consider these days as Special Days. They are simply days when I decided to use an exception to not follow the N Day rules. Because I have a budget for them, I can use them however I want.

I do something similar with spending money. I am sometimes extravagent in spending, but I operate within a budget.

I know the importance of being able to accept failure and get past it. My daughter, when she was in 5th grade, got a D + as a midquarter grade in math, and you would have thought her life was over. When she realized that she was going to survive, she was much calmer in school. I don't like all the pressure put on kids. It's sad. My son, who is a 7th grader, got placed in a 9th grade math class. He had an A at midquarter and a C- for his final grade, which will be on his high school transcript. I called the teacher and asked if he had been inappropriately placed. She said she didn't think so. He was the first one done with his test, in which he got a D+. My view of this was that he got what he deserved because he got a little too sure of himself in a tough class. Lesson learned. It won't destroy his life that he got a C- on his high school transcript. In fact, it might be good for him to learn this lesson!

What I see with this diet, at least for me, is that the exception days are a buffer against failure and reinforce the idea of the 3S rules being habits unless you take an exception. I believe this is the reason why the diet is pretty easy for me. I had it tough going for about a week before Christmas and for the first three weeks of the diet inSeptember, but other than that it's been easy.

Kathleen

TexArk
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Post by TexArk » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:23 am

Thanks, Kathleen.
I think I understand your thought process better. Habit formation is definitely the key and I think I hear you saying that you are clearly making a CHOICE to make a day an exception day. You are obviously not fooling yourself by blurring the boundaries. You simply choose to take an exception day when needed (but following your own monthly limitations). That way you don't have this crazy thinking that we have all had, "I've already blown it; what is some more damage I can do!" or the unhealthy guilt from something you can't undo.
Makes sense to me.

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:30 am

Yep. You've got it. Declaring a failure day weakens the habit. Declaring an exception keeps you within the rules you have created. Because I accumulate two exceptions per month, I need to operate within a budget. Right now, I cannot even tell you my budget. I think it is at 4. I can spend the exception days however I want. Once, I was tempted by a sample cup of coffee, but then I decided that I would prefer to wait for the weekend and have a 16 ounce cup of the coffee!
Kathleen

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Post by CrazyCatLady » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:09 am

I enjoyed reading the original post last week. It was shortly after I logged 21 successful days on habit. Just as I was ready to begin a strong, healthy new week, my son made homemade waffles for dinner. They were so good! Yet there was a plate of 4 small waffles, because he was still cooking more. I figured I would have one to start, and allow myself more. I ended up going way overboard, and having too many. (Did I mention that they were delicious?!?)

Sadly, I marked it as a red failure. Happily, I ended the overeating with the excess waffles, and did not continue to overeat all night. I have since stayed on habit for a week. For me, a limited incident failure is a kind of success.

It sounds like different things work for different people. Vanilla No S seems to be the ticket for me, with no mods. I keep the extra S days for special days, like Christmas or birthdays. I do not have the self control to have flexible S days. And I enjoy indulging on the S days.....we had ice cream after dinner on Sunday, and my 9 y/o son asked if this was an S day! He was so happy to hear me say yes, and so was I, as I had already eaten half of my ice cream!

Don't get discouraged. Many of us are unlearning years of bad habits. So long as we keep moving forward, building new, healthy habits, we are winning.

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MerryKat
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Post by MerryKat » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:53 am

Kathleen

I have found this topic facinating. It amazes me how different we are and how different each of our triggers are.

I love how you have modified No S to work for you and your thought processes.

For me I have to stick with Vanilla No S or I tweak until I break it! I follow the S day rule - Saturday, Sunday, Special (immediate family birthday or Christmas) or Sick. Any other N day which is not green is a failure for me and much as I hate marking that on my habitcal, I find it shows me truely how I am doing.

If I allocated 2 Exception Days (knowing how my brain works) I am the type that would have to have those 2 exception days in a month just because they were budgeted for me.

Congratulations on working this out to suit you and your thought process.

Hugs
Mo
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:16 pm

MerryKat,
Yes, people are different. Reinhard seemed to recognize this by encouraging people to make adaptations to suit them. I do make full use of two exception days per month, and that's OK by me. I'm losing weight, although slowly. Since I had gone from 155 in 2002 to 216 last September, I'm thrilled that the weight is going down at all! Day 126 weight (today) is 204.4. That's about where I was in December, 2007. I have tracked my weight carefully since November 2005, so it is gratifying to look back, as I lose weight, and see when I was at this weight previously.
Kathleen

kccc
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Post by kccc » Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:20 pm

CrazyCatLady wrote: For me, a limited incident failure is a kind of success. ...

So long as we keep moving forward, building new, healthy habits, we are winning.
Great quotes, both!

Kathleen, you've really thought through how you react to situations, and custom-designed a system tailored to your needs. I'm impressed by the analysis you've put into your design. :) Best wishes.

(Though I'm with TexArk that I don't worry about the occasional breath mint... I carry them in my purse all the time! Since I don't over-indulge in them, I don't even count them.)

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:03 pm

KCCC,
In case this happens again, I now have a toothbrush and toothpaste in a drawer at work! I don't want to be using an Exception Day just because I have bad breath and want a mint!

We all have our little tweaks. I don't particularly like pop, but I've had it on N Days when we've gone to Wendy's (I don't like milk at fast food restaurants) and when a meal has been delayed to very late (pop staved off hunger). I won't get into the habit of drinking pop because I don't much like it, so I decided to allow it on N Days even though Reinhard explicitly recommends that pop be considered sugar.

A mint, on the other hand.... I don't go one day with a roll of mints in my purse. They all get eaten! They do not belong in my N Day diet!

Kathleen

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