the snacking obsession among parents today

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BigE
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the snacking obsession among parents today

Post by BigE » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:52 am

Has anyone else (especially those of you who are parents of young children) noticed that parents and educators today seem to have an obsession with snacks for kids? I have a co-worker with two elementary school-age kids who commented to me on this. My daughter just finished first grade. She had a snack time at school, a snack break at soccer practice and games (for a while they were doing a half-time snack AND after-game snack). She also gets a snack when she goes to after-school day-care, and any time she has an after-school club. Doesn't it seem as if we the parents are overdoing the snack thing? In the movie Little Children, there's a great scene in which the main character (a mom) has forgotten her daughter's snack at the playground. The other "good" mom tells her sanctimoniously: "Don't worry, we have enough to share." It's not THAT bad on the playground, but you see snacks thrown at kids all the time. I'm wondering if I should reduce snacks for my daughter for the OPPOSITE reason as myself: to get her to actually eat more. (she's underweight).
In the interest of full disclosure, I must admit that as an elementary school teacher I've been on the "snack bus" myself. My students, however, are mostly low-income and many do not eat breakfast. I used to have a snack time for my third graders in order to offset their horrible breakfast habits, but my principal told me to stop.

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~reneew
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Post by ~reneew » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:02 am

All (4) of my kids have gone through that snack every hour Mom mentality that seems to be out there these days. When I was little I think I stopped "snack time" at school around 1st grade, and that was just milk. I lived. We ate meals. 3. It wasn't until the college dorm buffet that I gained 50 my freshman year... then lost 50 when I moved out. Then when I had kids, it started with the pregnancy..."eat for 2" thing... then kids need snacks! Bah! We are training them to eat all of the time. I about flipped when my oldest was on the Varsity soccer team and a few Moms wanted us parents to have a sign up sheet for the snacks for the away games! Ha! That's ridiculous! They are over 16 for gosh sakes. If they're hungry, they can get it themselves. That's my opinion. Sorry... I kinda got up in arms didn't I? :oops:
I guess this doesn't work unless you actually do it.
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Post by flightisleavin » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:46 am

Remember a long time ago the motto was "no snacking because it would spoil your appetite." Mothers worried that their kids would not eat come dinner. Now the snacks are indeed heavily promoted. I remember my own mother not allowing us to eat after school because she was afraid we would not eat dinner. We survived. Now dinner was ealy in our home but we went out to play and thought nothing of not having a snack.
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sophiasapientia
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Post by sophiasapientia » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:09 pm

Oh, I totally see this focus on snacking with kids. My DD just finished kindergarten and she had a snack before lunch and would come home famished everyday, asking for a snack. Playgroups, activities, etc usually include a snack as well. Now that she is home for the summer, she usually wants a snack in the afternoon and I do let her have something (usually fruit, veggies, a slice of cheese or a serving of popcorn.) She is on the slender side.

I don't remember much snacking when I was a kid. Rarely, on hot summer days, we'd have a pudding pop or something after spending the day outside. Basically, we had 3 meals a day.
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marleah
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Post by marleah » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:10 pm

And it's not only that snacks are promoted, but it's the type of snacks. Having an apple or something like that after school (as in the ONLY snack you have during the day) is one thing, but fruit roll-ups at soccer practice? Ask anyone, and they will say that the snacks are supposed to fuel the kids - but what kind of fuel is fruit roll-ups? Or rice krispie treats? That's what I don't understand.

I'm in the boat where kids might do well to have one extra "snack" - a piece of fruit or some carrot sticks, that kind of thing - during the day, especially if there is going to be a few hours before dinner (if they have lunch at 11:30 or 12:00 at school, then they don't get dinner until 7:00 or something).

But yes - it is an obsession!
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Post by StrawberryRoan » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:39 pm

Think about it, how many times have you seen a parent (or caregiver) in a public place like church, the mall, grocery store, etc. comfort a child or distract a child by handing them a sippie cup of who knows what (and does it seem like kids go directly from a breast or bottle to a sippie cup to a Slurpie cup to a Starbucks cup, never a moment that their hands are free their entire life) and a snack, some goldfish crackers, a cereal bar, some CheezIts, animal crackers, M and Ms, etc. etc. etc. It seems to me that I used to hand my kids a cloth book or a teething ring or something if they were fussy - now it is ALWAYS food and drink.

We are raising a generation that learn from birth that one needs to constantly have something to eat or drink to keep them "satisfied" with their lives.

and it is :cry:

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Post by guadopt1997 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:37 pm

I agree that the amount of snacks offered to kids is excessive!

I think it came with younger kids because they can get so cranky when they're hungry.

But once they are past that stage, give it a rest!

BigE
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Post by BigE » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:42 pm

My friend the other day asked his other friend who happens to be a pediatrician: "What can I do to get my child to eat?" We were having dinner at his place and his 3-year-old son was refusing to eat dinner. The pediatrician's answer was very simple: "Stop giving him snacks."

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Post by Kathleen » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 pm

I have found that for me personally stopping snacking also eventually stopped the round the clock feeling of hunger.

Our kids constantly have snacks -- morning snack at school, birthday treats, after school snacks, soccer game snacks, etc. I dropped my jaw when my 10 year old said something along the lines of "It's scientifically proven that kids do better in school if they have snacks."

My son told me that he was told to have a snack 45 minutes before exercising and 45 minutes after exercising. That just appalled me. A kid who wants to engage in exercise now has three things to schedule: the snack 45 minutes before exercising, the exercise, and the snack 45 minutes after exercising.

Kathleen

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Post by ~reneew » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:21 pm

My teen has been told by her varsity coach that they should eat carbs and lots of them before a game... they all eat bread things and nothing else. Never mind what Mom says, coach knows best! I was shocked one day when my 7 year old got a twinkie, 2 cookies and a can of caffienated pop after soccer and right before supper. Yuck! My kids are not overweight... yet. But, our society is sure pushing it!
I guess this doesn't work unless you actually do it.
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Post by bluebunny27 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:02 pm

Is it society or is it someone's own personal choice ?? I was watching a tv show the other day, this seriously overweight young man was on there, I think he weighed 535 pounds (and he was only about 25-27 years old. He had 3 other brothers who were not overweight at all, it was so strange, I was wondering why all the brothers were not overweight and he weighed 535.

Later he went on this diet and lost about 175 pounds within 8 months I believe, still a long way to go of course but 360 is better than 535. It was all his own personal choice since when he decided to lose weight and cutting down on his portions drastically (plus mild exercise) he was losing a lot of weight. He was even weighing his food and whatnot, it was all 100% precise.

When he was 535 the camera crew was following him around and he was going to this fast food place and ordering enough food for 3-4 people at least but he was eating it all by himself in the car (drive thru was more convenient for him since he wouldn't fit in the chairs inside)

BTW Kathleen it is actually good to eat something before exercising and after too ... If you don't eat anything and your last meal was a long time ago you won't have a lot of energy to perform and later on after the work out you can replenish your body with some nutrients. A healthy snack before and after doesn't hurt if you plan on exercising VIGOROUSLY of course.

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

Disclaimer : I am following a more extreme version of the 'No-S' diet.
I made my own personal modifications to the original plan (Diet & Exercise)
What I am doing should not be misinterpreted as being a typical 'No-S' diet experience.
11/01/2008 : 280.0 pounds - - - 06/23/2009 : 211.0 pounds
7 months 23 days / 69.0 pounds

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Post by kccc » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:20 pm

bluebunny27 wrote:Is it society or is it someone's own personal choice ??
We live in a society that makes bad choices easy and good choices very, very hard. Just think about all the fast food around, and how much harder it is to get a quick meal that's actually healthy.

That's especially true for kids. I was on a parent committee to promote Wellness in the schools, and we strongly discouraged snacks and treats in the classroom. Nonetheless, my 8-year-old rarely has a day when he isn't given candy/junk as a reward. The school environment totally undermines the healthy habits I'm trying to promote.

It's also VERY hard to be the only parent who doesn't bring a big basket of junk food to the pool or the skating rink. I don't... and end up getting "eyed" by the moms who brought cupcakes with 4" of icing because I don't have anything beyond water. Of course they share, which I'd really rather they didn't. And it's almost impossible to refuse when they're offering, my son is begging, and all my son's friends are chowing down.

But it's not just kids. I'm in meetings all week, and there are muffins in the morning and cookies in the afternoon as well as lunch.

So I think we've collectively created an environment/culture where individuals tend to be led to snack. Kids generally don't have the decision-making perspective to refuse, and it's actually difficult for adults who DO know better to intercede.

(At home, I do say "no, it will spoil your dinner" at times. And the snacks I do allow are not junk - if you're not hungry for an apple, you're not hungry.)

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Post by Thalia » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:27 pm

Kids are told that they NEED snacks, and snacks are GOOD for them. Me, I am not big on the idea that five-year-olds should be completely responsible for their own health decisions -- so yes, in this case it is society. :roll:

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bluebunny27
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Post by bluebunny27 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:50 pm

Hum, yes, making good choices is HARDER, it would be easier to pig out at Burger King daily, lol ! ... but in the end it's still your own personal choice after all. I don't really buy this theory of blaming society or anyone else. It's always your choice, nobody is forcing you to do it. (I'm talking about adults in particular, not lil' kids who are influenced by the publicity, the toys, the association with popular movies like SHREK and McDonald's ...)

For example :
I haven't been to a fast food place in 8 months and I used to go at least once a week or more, my own personal choice despite the easy access to those joints, the commercials on tv, the coupons I get in my mailbox, etc. It's my choice to go there or not.

Of course when you're dealing with lil' kids it's the parents' job to tell them about nutrition (and the school too, here we had classes on that, we were educated about nutrition, basic cooking skills, stuff like that, When I was about 13-14 years old, we had classes, maybe an hour or two per week on things like that.) Junk food and sugary soft drinks are banned from many canadian school cafeterias too. Even in my nephew's 'code of conduct' school book it says kids should not bring 'bad food' to school for lunch or snacks. They check what the kids bring to eat, I suppose.

Lil' kids don't know better so the parents and the schools have to tell them what to eat, what's good for them ... so they can make the right choices later on despite 'society's influence' ... They can have a snack but it's better if it's something that is good for them, not junk food or candy bars.

My lil' nephew eats less candy these days and the other day he even said that wheat bread is more 'nutritious' so he wanted to have some of my whole wheat bread instead of the white one ... often he doesn't even want any ice cream, cookies or cake.

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

Disclaimer : I am following a more extreme version of the 'No-S' diet.
I made my own personal modifications to the original plan (Diet & Exercise)
What I am doing should not be misinterpreted as being a typical 'No-S' diet experience.
11/01/2008 : 280.0 pounds - - - 06/23/2009 : 211.0 pounds
7 months 23 days / 69.0 pounds

kccc
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Post by kccc » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:15 pm

bluebunny27 wrote: (I'm talking about adults in particular, not lil' kids who are influenced by the publicity, the toys, the association with popular movies like SHREK and McDonald's ...)
O-kay... but this thread was ABOUT kids being fed/offered snacks, not about adults.
...
Lil' kids don't know better so the parents and the schools have to tell them what to eat, what's good for them ... so they can make the right choices later on despite 'society's influence' ... They can have a snack but it's better if it's something that is good for them, not junk food or candy bars.
Agreed. And that's the problem. If you're a parent, it is a CONSTANT battle against other parents who are snack-oriented.

And while schcools SHOULD help, they vary a lot. My kid's school is the GREATEST purveyor of junk in his life, and undermines a lot of my teaching about nutrition (not by what they say but by what they DO). I totally identify with BigE's frustration over parents/educators constantly feeling the need to "push" snacks, especially those that are stuff I'd rather he didn't have at all.

BigE
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Post by BigE » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:38 pm

It's certainly better when kids are provided a healthy snack, but it still seems to be a problem. For instance, when my daughter gets showered and dressed at 6:30 after her swim class, my friend gives her two kids healthy snacks. It's only natural that my daughter wants to mooch some snacks from them. But good grief, it's 6:30, and we'll be eating dinner as soon as we get home! So then I starting feeling like I should bring snacks to share, because I'm afraid it seems like my daughter's always eating their snacks but I never have anything to offer in return to their kids. The same thing happens on the playground after school, and at the pool, etc. etc. I don't want to be an anti-snack purist, but I am starting to realize more and more that this is part of the problem with my daughter being "picky" at mealtime -- she's just not hungry! And oddly enough, the problem of the underweight can often be solved in the same way as with the overweight -- we all need to eat well-balanced, regular meals.

Also: I'd really like to see the statistics on how kids perform better academically when they are allowed to snack. I suspect that this is because the children are not getting a good breakfast in the morning, which is why they need to supplement mid-morning.

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Post by wosnes » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:29 pm

BigE wrote: Also: I'd really like to see the statistics on how kids perform better academically when they are allowed to snack. I suspect that this is because the children are not getting a good breakfast in the morning, which is why they need to supplement mid-morning.
I'd like to see them, too. I'd also like to know who funded them and what kind of snacks they're encouraging.

There's a great book called Selling Sickness: How the world's biggest pharmaceutical companies are turning us all into patients by Roy Moynihan and Alan Cassels. The first paragraph says this:
Thirty years ago the head of one of the world's best-known drug companies made some very candid comments. Close to retirement at the time, Merck's aggressive chief executive Henry Gadsden told Fortune magazine of his distress that the company's potential markets had been limited to sick people. Suggesting he'd rather Merck to be more like chewing gum maker Wrigley's, Gadsden said it had long been his dream to make drugs for healthy people. Because then, Merck would be able to "sell to everyone." Three decades on, the late Henry Gadsden's dream has come true.
I think the world's biggest food companies have done much the same thing. They've made us think we need food that we not only don't need, but often isn't good for us. And it's making us fat and unhealthy. But they don't make money when we eat only what and as much as we need!
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Post by Thalia » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:41 pm

Yep. They also don't make as much money from people buying fresh ingredients instead of prepared processed foods. Although it's fascinating to me the way that pomegranates, and now cranberries, are being marketed the same way that corporations traditionally market breakfast cereal or snack food or frozen dinners.

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Post by StrawberryRoan » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:42 pm

I was born in 1949 so was in grade school during the fifties. I honestly don't remember any snack breaks other than milk and graham crackers in kindergarten.

We ate breakfast at home, got to get a drink of water at the fountain at recess and then ate lunch, repeat recess in the afternoon and then went home.

Talk about abuse :shock:

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Post by wosnes » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:55 pm

StrawberryRoan wrote:I was born in 1949 so was in grade school during the fifties. I honestly don't remember any snack breaks other than milk and graham crackers in kindergarten.

We ate breakfast at home, got to get a drink of water at the fountain at recess and then ate lunch, repeat recess in the afternoon and then went home.

Talk about abuse :shock:
I was also born in 1949 and my memories are the same as yours. I do remember a snack at Brownies. Afterschool snacks depended on when you ate dinner. I had one friend whose family ate dinner at 4:00 PM, so there weren't afterschool snacks. But most friends ate dinner quite a bit later and there might be a simple snack after school.

I think there's another difference between now and then. I mentioned a snack at Brownies -- it was once a week and no big deal. But kids today are often involved in something nearly every day after school and often on weekends. And it all adds up.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by StrawberryRoan » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:28 pm

Yes, I remember getting a snack at Brownies or Vacation Bible School (the only time my mom let us drink Kool Aid - she used to say - Do you KNOW how much sugar is in that stuff (she was an RN)..

The difference today is, that kind of food was a treat to us.

Today, it is just some more food.

Geez, I am feeling older by the minute. :cry:

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Post by reinhard » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:21 pm

I'm reminded of this NY Times article that was posted a while back
When I lived in France and had my children there, my pediatrician gave me exactly one admonition regarding their feeding: "Don't let them eat cookies all day." The emphasis wasn't on "cookies" but on "all day" — I guess he'd seen enough American expat moms toting around their sad little baggies of Cheerios to know that of which he spoke.
http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/06 ... ios&st=cse

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Post by bonnieUK » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:04 pm

I think I've noticed a change already in my lifetime, when I was a kid snacking wasn't a big thing. If we did have a snack, it was normal food just in a smaller amount (I was partial to little squares of toast with butter and marmite).

I notice thesedays that supermarkets seem full of kid's snacky things like fruit bars, fruit roll-ups, fruit bits in little crinkly packs etc. all touted as "sugar free".

One of my favourite S day treat foods is actually chocolate flavour cookies sweetened with grape juice which are marketed as a kid's snack (they come in little individual packets, which apparently are "ideal for lunchboxes" :roll:

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Post by kccc » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:08 am

BigE wrote:It's certainly better when kids are provided a healthy snack, but it still seems to be a problem. For instance, when my daughter gets showered and dressed at 6:30 after her swim class, my friend gives her two kids healthy snacks. It's only natural that my daughter wants to mooch some snacks from them. But good grief, it's 6:30, and we'll be eating dinner as soon as we get home! So then I starting feeling like I should bring snacks to share, because I'm afraid it seems like my daughter's always eating their snacks but I never have anything to offer in return to their kids. The same thing happens on the playground after school, and at the pool, etc. etc. I don't want to be an anti-snack purist, but I am starting to realize more and more that this is part of the problem with my daughter being "picky" at mealtime -- she's just not hungry! And oddly enough, the problem of the underweight can often be solved in the same way as with the overweight -- we all need to eat well-balanced, regular meals.
BigE, I feel your pain on this one. You hate to be the "free-loading" mom, but you also hate to follow this particular trend.

My current strategy is to pack a snack that would be acceptable as a part of a meal - like an apple - with enough to share. I offer to share what I've brought. Sometimes they accept, sometimes they don't - often not, if there's more "attractive" junky stuff. And I tell my child that he can have the snacks I've brought, but not other stuff. (Yes, I'm mean.) I explain TO HIM that it's too close to OUR dinner for other snacks, careful to keep the explanation limited to OUR family, because I know other people can overhear and I don't want to sound critical.

Sometimes that leads to a productive conversation about how kids don't eat meals if they eat snacks.

Sometimes I'm just the local food nazi/weirdo.

I figure part of my job as a parent is to develop a thick enough skin to stick to my guns when I think it matters. :)

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Post by Kodama » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:54 am

Big Food uses all the marketing psychological tricks to sell more of their 'food'. Child or Adult, we are all susceptible to their siren songs. Even the strongest will can be weakened or broken. So I DO blame Big Food Corporations and modern capitalism's never ending quest for larger profits and never-ending growth. Talk about unsustainable! The world needs a whole new economic model of sustainability. Hopefully we can create one before it's too late.
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Post by wosnes » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:10 am

sgstarling wrote:Big Food uses all the marketing psychological tricks to sell more of their 'food'. Child or Adult, we are all susceptible to their siren songs. Even the strongest will can be weakened or broken. So I DO blame Big Food Corporations and modern capitalism's never ending quest for larger profits and never-ending growth. Talk about unsustainable! The world needs a whole new economic model of sustainability. Hopefully we can create one before it's too late.
I agree. Not only has Big Food done it to us, they're spreading it to the rest of the world. Not only are they doing it, they're doing it much more quickly than they did it to us. All those people with the long-standing good food and habits are being tricked by their messages. You have to be pretty isolated to escape their messages!
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by mimi » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:05 pm

Sometimes I'm just the local food nazi/weirdo.

I figure part of my job as a parent is to develop a thick enough skin to stick to my guns when I think it matters.
Please KCCC continue to stick to your guns on issues that matter for your children. As a public school educator, I have seen the size of our middle schoolers increase dramatically over the last 10-15 years. It used to be that we would have only one or two severely overweight or obese adolescents each year - now there are many. So please don't feel badly about offering your children healthy snacks - they will thank you for it later and go on to model the same behaviors for their children.

Thankfully, in our school district there is a letter sent home to parents concerning this very matter. Here is a portion of it:
Dear Parent:

Kids are ready to learn when they eat healthy foods and get regular exercise. The purpose of this guideline is to provide some practical suggestions on how you can help us adhere to our student wellness policy and create a positive nutritional atmosphere at school.

A) Snacks/Parties The classroom teacher makes the decision regarding the frequency of snacks and classroom parties. It is desirable that “nutritious†items be included in the planning for these events. One safe way to assure that it is “nutritious†is to limit the foods to fruits and veggies. WHY? Most children do not eat the recommended daily servings of fruits and veggies. Fruits and veggies are loaded with vitamins and minerals; are low in fat, sugar, and salt; and are high in fiber. Students with medical conditions (diabetes, allergies, etc.) can also participate. Some ideas include:
Apples Nectarines Grapes Pineapple Chunks
Orange Slices Baby Carrots Bananas Melon Chunks
Celery Sticks Cucumber Slices Strawberries Squash Slices
Raisins Kiwi Applesauce Watermelon


While fruits and veggies are the best choices, other ideas include:
Cereal Based Snacks Baked Salty Snacks Muffins
Graham Crackers Popcorn Snacks Yogurt
Granola Bars Cereal Bars Animal Cookies
Ginger Snaps String Cheese Frozen Juice Bars

One way to get your child to “go along†with nutritious snacks may be to include him/her in your grocery shopping for the event. Beverages can be limited to 100% juices, juice drinks, and lemonade. Soft drinks and Kool-Aid are discouraged.
I feel good about what we are doing for our youngsters at our schools.

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Post by BigE » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:06 am

I love seeing how many posts this has inspired. I really want to tell my former co-worker (who first ranted to me about kids and snacks) about how many responses I've gotten.

Here's my sneaky progress with my 7-year-old daughter (shhhh. . . don't tell!). She's UNDERweight, and she frequently doesn't eat very much at mealtime. I haven't told her that I'm conscientiously doing this, but the whole time (almost a week) that I've been no sing, I've put her on a "no snack" restriction. I still let her eat healthy snacks, but if it's within 2 hours of the next mealtime, I REFUSE to let her have a snack of any sort -- I just say "It's too close to lunch/dinner." So far, I've seen (big shocker) that she's eating much more at mealtime. Today she was particularly resistant (at the pool, late afternoon, common snack time) so I consoled her by insisting that she could eat AS MUCH as she wanted at dinner, and she was welcome to dessert if she ate dinner. It worked! I love outsmarting my smart kid!

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Post by kccc » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:18 pm

[quote="mimi
I feel good about what we are doing for our youngsters at our schools.

Mimi :D[/quote]

Good for your district!

Our district also has a Wellness Policy - I know, because I was on the parent advisory committee that helped craft it. The problem is that the teachers totally ignore it and hand out candy/food right and left to reward good behavior. Plus, there are always parties, etc. I am beyond frustrated with the general culture that makes this the rule rather than the exception.

Everyone thinks I'm nuts to protest over "a piece or two of candy," because they only look at what they provide. But they don't see how the AGGREGATE over the day undermines healthy eating.

Big E, sounds like your efforts with your daughter are working - good for you!

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Post by BigE » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:11 pm

Exactly. We can't even get through the candy leftover from Valentine's, Easter and Halloween. Also, I'd probably feel better about treats for birthdays and holidays in the classroom if they were reasonably-portioned and homemade. But at my former school, the norm was to bring junky cupcakes from the grocery store with heavily dyed icing 3 inches thick -- and it's very messy. Now multiply those cupcakes times 24 and you have a lot of sugar and a lot of time taken away from actual instruction. Over the last few years of teaching I've asked my parents to bring in healthy snacks for holiday celebrations: fruit plates, cheese and crackers, cut up veggies with dip. The kids gobble it up!

My daughter's teacher sent a note home at the beginning of the school year stating: "This is how we celebrate birthdays in our classroom. Your child may bring in a favorite book that I will read out loud to the class. If you'd like to donate the book to the class that would be great; or you are welcome to just bring it in to share for the day and take it back home." My daughter also received a lovely book in which every person in the class filled in the sentence "I like Kathleen because . . ." and drew a picture. Each child had a page to fill in and decorate, and the birthday child gets to decorate the cover. I'm stealing the same idea for my class next year: you have something meaningful and thoughtful that your child will treasure for much longer than the cupcake, and it actually relates to an academic skill. Perfect. My daughter was so proud of her birthday book!

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Post by Betty » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:26 am

I'm of two minds on this one. On one hand, I hate how much crap my kids are offered at school. It seems like there's a birthday party every other day. On the other hand, when I was growing up in the 60's we had snacktime at school and another after school, and no one seemed to be overweight then. My kids definitely sail on a more even keel if they have something healthy between meals.

I totlaly agree that when kids are encouraged to eat all the time in an unstructured way it will definitely lead to bad habits and obesity. Eating a planned, healthy snack between meals for young kids seems just fine to me.
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Post by Bushranger » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:44 am

When I was a child, especially a teenager, I ate 5 or 6 times a day. But the thing is it was not a snack. It was a meal; every one of them was a small meal. Morning tea and afternoon tea were fruit, yoghurt, veggies, homemade biscuits and even another sandwich sometimes. I know as a teenager I was ravenous and most of my friends were the same so 3 squares was never going to cut it.

The difference I see though is kids now aren't having just morning tea and afternoon tea as a small meal; it's just constant grazing between meals. Also the actual food they are getting is just rubbish. What the heck is a Kellogg's LCM?! And a fruit roll up, as one of you already mentioned, that's just a piece of plastic soaked in sugar water. I recently saw a show about the obesity problem in children and it was shocking the amount of packet junk they had stashed in their school bags. Most of them even snuck it into class to eat all day long. All I could wonder was "Are their parents even a part of their lives or was Bold and the Beautiful more important?".

I would be hard pressed to deny a growing child and teen morning tea and afternoon tea. But I would never let them eat the current mainstream crap, nor for 3 hours straight between each "real" meal.

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Post by bonnieUK » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:36 am

Bushranger wrote:When I was a child, especially a teenager, I ate 5 or 6 times a day. But the thing is it was not a snack. It was a meal; every one of them was a small meal. Morning tea and afternoon tea were fruit, yoghurt, veggies, homemade biscuits and even another sandwich sometimes. I know as a teenager I was ravenous and most of my friends were the same so 3 squares was never going to cut it.
This is true for me too, especially when staying with my grandparents where we had breakfast, elevenses, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner/supper (depending on how big lunch was, a "supper" was a lighter meal than "dinner"). As you said, each eating event was a small meal. Elevenses was something like buttered crumpets or toast and afternoon tea was a sandwich and maybe some cake to go with the tea.

One thing I noticed that it was normal for the adults to eat much less at the mid-morning and mid-afternoon meals, if they ate anything at all. It was definitely more for us growing kids :)

When I was a teenager this eating pattern suited me, as soon as I got past 22 though I didn't need that much food anymore, nor did I have the time and inclination to prepare it :lol:

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constant toddler snacks

Post by cranteach » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:07 pm

One vivid image I have is a trip to the zoo I took with my toddler daughter. Every third kid was sitting in a stroller with a specially designed container to hold their goldfish crackers or fruit snacks. It's not the "programmed" snacks (like after soccer practice) that bother me so much, it's the constant snacks. The kind of thoughtless eating that we used to worry about when TV watching is bleeding out into all parts of our daily lives.

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Post by BigE » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:45 pm

I love reading about afternoon tea in British novels, especially now that I'm a dedicated tea drinker. It seems like such a lovely ritual -- and I think that's critical, that "afternoon tea" is a daily ritual, not a matter of constant snacking throughout the day. My only temptation in terms of a "mod" is to have an after-school snack (I'm a teacher) when the school year begins again. I'm not sure yet, because I can see the benefits of staying "vanilla no s."

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Post by mimi » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:52 pm

Why not just enjoy your afternoon tea - with a little honey or milk? Buy a fancy cup and saucer and make it your ritual! Adding food *muddies the water* What will constitute an *after-school-snack*? Where will you draw the lines?
I think the better route to take would be to eat more breakfast and lunch so that you won't feel that you need more than your tea. If you get the habit down of three meals with no snacks, why would you want to change it? You can always drink some milk or juice to tide you over as well.
Just some ideas to toss around!

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Post by BigE » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:58 am

So milk is within the rules? I could do that . . .

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Post by Mistress Manners » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:16 am

Yes. Caloric beverages don't count as snacks.

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Post by vmsurbat » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:54 am

Mistress Manners wrote:Yes. Caloric beverages don't count as snacks.
unless they are sweet.

Thus,

Milk: yes
Choc. milk: no

Tea: yes
Chai Latte with the works: no

OJ: yes
Orange Julius: No

I agree with Mimi that you should strive to enjoy your afternoon "tea" without looking to add a "snack" if at all possible.

For a number of our British friends (we live in Europe), they fondly recall afternoon tea from the days of their childhood: a light meal eaten around 5 pm which was their last meal because they went to bed around 8pm!
Vicki in MNE
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Post by BigE » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:04 am

I was planning on skim milk. I don't drink sweetened beverages anymore anyway. I think this will solve my dilemma, which is that when the school year begins I will have an early-ish lunch time (11:30) and a late-ish dinner time (7 p.m., which accomodates my husband's work schedule). I'd like to have some nutrients in me to tide me over, but don't want to give way to random snacking. I think the milk will provide me with nutrients, without spoiling my appetite or ruining the habit of EATING three times a day.

I have to add, though, that on my current schedule, the sparkling mineral water goes a surprisingly long way towards temporarily curbing my appetite. I'm rather obsessed with my sparkling mineral water break in the late afternoon (lime-flavored, NO added sugars, NO calories).

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Post by getoka » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:20 am

No one has afternoon tea in Britain these days -except tourists :wink:

The word 'tea' is used by many people instead of 'dinner' and of course for the drink which we still drink at around 4pm (and other times).

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Post by BigE » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:19 pm

Wow, I've never heard that. I did hear someone tell me that the British mostly drink coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon.

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Post by Mistress Manners » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:00 pm

vmsurbat wrote:
Mistress Manners wrote:Yes. Caloric beverages don't count as snacks.
unless they are sweet.

Thus,

Milk: yes
Choc. milk: no

Tea: yes
Chai Latte with the works: no

OJ: yes
Orange Julius: No

I agree with Mimi that you should strive to enjoy your afternoon "tea" without looking to add a "snack" if at all possible.

For a number of our British friends (we live in Europe), they fondly recall afternoon tea from the days of their childhood: a light meal eaten around 5 pm which was their last meal because they went to bed around 8pm!
Well, OJ is sweet, so the whole "unless it's sweet" rule doesn't really work.

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Post by vmsurbat » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:14 pm

Mistress Manners wrote:[

Well, OJ is sweet, so the whole "unless it's sweet" rule doesn't really work.
Thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity: sweet as in "added sugar" sweet. Naturally sweet, 100% fruit juices aren't verboten in vanilla-NoS rules. But it doesn't mean they should be imbibed indiscriminately as they are still caloric.

And, a small amount of sugar added to coffee and tea are also "ok."

What NoS targets are the main culprits of weight gain: mindless snacking, constant desserts, oversized helpings. It has been very freeing to not worry about the "little" things like a spoon of sugar in my tea. That is not what made me fat....

HTH,
Vicki in MNE
7! Yrs. with Vanilla NoS, down 55+lb, happily maintaining and still loving it!

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Post by getoka » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:31 pm

BigE wrote: I did hear someone tell me that the British mostly drink coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon.
That's what I do, but there's no real rule- we drink tea and coffee pretty much as the fancy takes us.

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Post by Mistress Manners » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:03 pm

vmsurbat wrote:
Mistress Manners wrote:[

Well, OJ is sweet, so the whole "unless it's sweet" rule doesn't really work.
Thanks for pointing out my lack of clarity: sweet as in "added sugar" sweet. Naturally sweet, 100% fruit juices aren't verboten in vanilla-NoS rules. But it doesn't mean they should be imbibed indiscriminately as they are still caloric.

And, a small amount of sugar added to coffee and tea are also "ok."

What NoS targets are the main culprits of weight gain: mindless snacking, constant desserts, oversized helpings. It has been very freeing to not worry about the "little" things like a spoon of sugar in my tea. That is not what made me fat....

HTH,
Agreed. And I really enjoy that spoon of sugar in my tea, too, since it's not lost in a sea of other sweet things.

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Post by Kodama » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:16 pm

I say, skip the OJ and eat the Orange! You get all the UNprocessed goodness, and fiber to boot! :)

Oh, but then I guess it would count as a snack... :(

That's wierd isn't it? OJ allowed, while oranges aren't?
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Post by Kathleen » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:52 pm

Yes, I agree it is weird to allow orange juice but not the orange. What I have found personally is that I no longer (or rarely) feel hungry between meals, and I think the reason why is that I am no longer chewing between meals.

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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:17 pm

vmsurbat wrote:
Mistress Manners wrote:Yes. Caloric beverages don't count as snacks.
unless they are sweet.

Thus,

Milk: yes
Choc. milk: no

Tea: yes
Chai Latte with the works: no

OJ: yes
Orange Julius: No

I agree with Mimi that you should strive to enjoy your afternoon "tea" without looking to add a "snack" if at all possible.

For a number of our British friends (we live in Europe), they fondly recall afternoon tea from the days of their childhood: a light meal eaten around 5 pm which was their last meal because they went to bed around 8pm!
Why, though? I really would like to know. I just finished reading the book and noticed Reinhard okays a cup of coffee with milk and a couple of tsp of sugar as an acceptable caloric beverage. When I make a cup of hot chocolate, I make it with 8 oz of milk and about a square of Green and Black's dark chocolate, gently simmer till chocolate is melted and mixed nicely with the milk. That's 3 grams of sugar in the chocolate. That is signifigantly less than 2 tsp if I'm measuring correctly. Same with chai: half black tea and half milk to fill my cup, a couple of cardamom pods, about a half stick of cinnamon, and either a tsp of either honey or sugar or something like that.

It's okay with me if they aren't acceptable NoS drinks. I just wonder why. It just doesn't seem any different than a cup of joe with milk and a couple of tsp of sugar.

My feeble brain is probably stuck in denial and refuses to see the obvious distiniction. Help me out! ; )
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Post by Kathleen » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Reinhard emphasizes that modifications are just fine. I've made a few myself, including allowing sugared pop. What he wants you to do is to define sweets. Some people define peanut butter as a sweet. For me, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are a lunch staple. He's defined sweets as including chocolate. You may decide to try allowing chocolate when mixed in a drink.
Kathleen

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Post by sophiasapientia » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:55 pm

Why, though? I really would like to know. I just finished reading the book and noticed Reinhard okays a cup of coffee with milk and a couple of tsp of sugar as an acceptable caloric beverage.
I think it has to do with the principle of No S, of establishing clear food boundaries which in turn lead to healthy eating habits that are so natural that you don't even need to think about them. In the book, Reinhard writes "And it's not just the chocolate in itself -- by eating an unambiguous sweet, you are smudging the clear no sweets boundary, which will probably lead to further, nonchocolaty violations."

Now, in the same section, he says that drinking chocolate without any sugar would be OK.

I guess it depends on what you want out of No S and what you think you can handle without blurring the boundaries. I think the recommendation is to try strict "Vanilla" No S for at least a month or so before making any modifications.
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Post by Mistress Manners » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:30 am

Everyone makes their own rules. I think it's legit to write your own personal No S Constitution so that your specific version of hot chocolate counts the same as coffee. But then you need to be a strict constructionist when interpreting your Constitution. No heading down the slippery slope of mocha frappucinoland.

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Post by BigE » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:21 am

Sorry to stray too far off topic, but does the "s-event" qualify as straying from the "vanilla no s"? I just had my first "s-event day." I will be noting it as a yellow on Habitcal, but I did follow all the rules of an N day with one exception -- I ate dessert at book club, because it's a once-a-month (at most) event. Now of course I'm staring at the two-bite brownies thinking, "S-event? Can I eat it? Not eat it?" I don't like the complication of the ambiguity. It leads me down that old familiar path of Guilt About Food. Don't want to go there.

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Post by vmsurbat » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:28 am

Rebeccca wrote:
Why, though? I really would like to know. I just finished reading the book and noticed Reinhard okays a cup of coffee with milk and a couple of tsp of sugar as an acceptable caloric beverage. When I make a cup of hot chocolate, I make it with 8 oz of milk and about a square of Green and Black's dark chocolate, gently simmer till chocolate is melted and mixed nicely with the milk. That's 3 grams of sugar in the chocolate. That is signifigantly less than 2 tsp if I'm measuring correctly. Same with chai: half black tea and half milk to fill my cup, a couple of cardamom pods, about a half stick of cinnamon, and either a tsp of either honey or sugar or something like that.

It's okay with me if they aren't acceptable NoS drinks. I just wonder why. It just doesn't seem any different than a cup of joe with milk and a couple of tsp of sugar.

My feeble brain is probably stuck in denial and refuses to see the obvious distiniction. Help me out! ; )
First, the "rules" are to help establish CLEAR boundaries regarding eating meals and not eating snacks, sweets, seconds. Reinhard marks that boundary by counting non-desserty liquids as OK, solid food as verboten. This allows us to establish GOOD HABITS which is the true foundation for NoS. Obviously, his rules are not "written from on high," but they worked for him and countless others....

Second, regarding your hot chocolate: If, *to you*, it is "just a beverage" akin to someone else's cup of Joe, enjoy! You are doing so mindfully (ie, not dumping spoons of sugar and high-fat milk into it). The trick is to watch for the slippery slope: Mmm. Homemade chocolate pudding is just the same thing as homemade hot chocolate except for the added cornstarch so only a very few more calories.....I can have that with dinner! (or instead of a beverage at 4pm!)

*Remember, with NoS, the focus is on HABIT, not calories.*

Third, NoS is a diet that embraces moderation: too much modifying, and it will be hard to achieve results. The value of ONLY 3 meals a day, is that when a person stops losing weight (or never does to begin with) after a good try with "vanilla NoS", it is EASY to focus on *why*. If the amount of food seems right, not enough exercise. Or perhaps there is too much food being eaten at one's current level of activity/movement.

Too many caloric beverages (even if legit) muddy the ability to spotlight potential problem areas. And, in general, caloric beverages are suggested as a "crutch" when uber-hungry to preserve the "not eating between meals" habit. It is better to not have them at all *on a daily basis.*

Another potential problem is that having a routine caloric beverage between meals will, in fact, "spoil" your appetite for the next meal--you'll still feel some satiety from your previous drink. This can mess up learning how to derive satisfaction and satiety at one meal, learning just how much food is enough for both enjoyment and sustenance. I found this to be *a hard-earned but VERY VALUABLE SKILL.*

Again, NoS is all about retraining the mind. If you can mindfully enjoy your occasional cup of hot chocolate, not considering it as a snack nor a sweet, and still lose the weight you want, why not? At least now you know a few of the reasons behind the madness of the "rule."

HTH,
Vicki in MNE
7! Yrs. with Vanilla NoS, down 55+lb, happily maintaining and still loving it!

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Post by sophiasapientia » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:10 am

Sorry to stray too far off topic, but does the "s-event" qualify as straying from the "vanilla no s"?

No, I don't think it qualifies as straying, especially if you aren't taking more than 2 NWS days per month. I run into the same issue when I have my monthly bookclub and, depending on what is going on that month, I either take it as an s event, switch s days (like in December when I have multiple family birthdays and holidays) or abstain from the goodies. Enjoy your treat guilt-free, mark it and continue on. :)
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Post by wosnes » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:32 am

BigE wrote:Sorry to stray too far off topic, but does the "s-event" qualify as straying from the "vanilla no s"? I just had my first "s-event day." I will be noting it as a yellow on Habitcal, but I did follow all the rules of an N day with one exception -- I ate dessert at book club, because it's a once-a-month (at most) event. Now of course I'm staring at the two-bite brownies thinking, "S-event? Can I eat it? Not eat it?" I don't like the complication of the ambiguity. It leads me down that old familiar path of Guilt About Food. Don't want to go there.
A small dessert once a month? It's okay.
vmsurbat wrote:First, the "rules" are to help establish CLEAR boundaries regarding eating meals and not eating snacks, sweets, seconds. Reinhard marks that boundary by counting non-desserty liquids as OK, solid food as verboten. This allows us to establish GOOD HABITS which is the true foundation for NoS. Obviously, his rules are not "written from on high," but they worked for him and countless others....
What's important is that you establish good habits that work for YOU. I understand the thinking behind the non-desserty liquids between meals, but it doesn't work for me. First, often they're too much volume and ruin my appetite for my next meal. Second, they're often high in calories and I don't need that. Third, I don't believe in drinking my calories (with the exception of beer or wine). With the exception of using juice as the liquid in my smoothies (which are part of a meal) or the very rare glass of orange juice with breakfast (maybe twice a year), I don't drink milk or juice.

No-S may work for you exactly as written. Or, it may not. Then find the good habits that do work for you.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Post by Mistress Manners » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:55 am

BigE wrote:Sorry to stray too far off topic, but does the "s-event" qualify as straying from the "vanilla no s"? I just had my first "s-event day." I will be noting it as a yellow on Habitcal, but I did follow all the rules of an N day with one exception -- I ate dessert at book club, because it's a once-a-month (at most) event. Now of course I'm staring at the two-bite brownies thinking, "S-event? Can I eat it? Not eat it?" I don't like the complication of the ambiguity. It leads me down that old familiar path of Guilt About Food. Don't want to go there.
I'm new, so I'm not following. Are you saying that you decided beforehand that the Book Club day was an S day, but limited yourself to one S event? Or that you retroactively decided it was an S day?

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Post by wosnes » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:29 pm

Mistress Manners wrote:
BigE wrote:Sorry to stray too far off topic, but does the "s-event" qualify as straying from the "vanilla no s"? I just had my first "s-event day." I will be noting it as a yellow on Habitcal, but I did follow all the rules of an N day with one exception -- I ate dessert at book club, because it's a once-a-month (at most) event. Now of course I'm staring at the two-bite brownies thinking, "S-event? Can I eat it? Not eat it?" I don't like the complication of the ambiguity. It leads me down that old familiar path of Guilt About Food. Don't want to go there.
I'm new, so I'm not following. Are you saying that you decided beforehand that the Book Club day was an S day, but limited yourself to one S event? Or that you retroactively decided it was an S day?
I think BigE wasn't sure how to handle it.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Post by BigE » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:55 pm

I decided ahead ahead to officially mark it on Habitcal as an S day, but that I would treat it as an "s event," meaning that I ate my three meals, no snacks, no seconds, no sweets EXCEPT for the dessert at book club. Then I found myself staring at the two-bite cupcake (they're mini-size), wondering if that was "allowed." It actually all ended quite well, I think, because I ate the little cupcake and for once felt completely satisfied and not even tempted to eat any more. So that was a good moment for me. I think part of it was that I'd really been looking forward to a great "s-event" dessert at book club, and it wasn't really my favorite dessert (which of course didn't prevent me from eating it! :oops:

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Post by Mistress Manners » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:28 pm

I've found that the key is being honest with myself about whether I've designated somethign as an S day ahead of time, or have tried to retroactively justify my failure by claiming an S day. The first one's kosher. But I try to make any unplanned S-events red, just to keep me honest.

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:38 am

For years, and I mean years, I've gone round and round about whether or not a diet should be followed with "perfect compliance", which is a term that came from a book I no longer can locate.

What I realized is that a habit followed with perfect compliance because stronger and stronger over time. You don't think about following it. You just follow it.

I have a 13 year old boy who hasn't get learned to follow "brush your teeth every monring and evening" with "perfect compliance".

That's why I gave myself a budget of 2 NWS per month, and I use the NWSs for any reason, s event or s day. What I've found is I need one true S Day and all the NWSs are really s events.

Kathleen

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Post by BigE » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:32 pm

What does NWS stand for? Do you mean only 2 "special" s days a month, or two s days per month period?

BTW, I love the name Kathleen so your name really gives credence to your advice. :) I named by daughter Kathleen, and by best friend from college (Kathleen!) is currently sleeping on my couch! (just visiting from out of town). :shock:

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Post by Mistress Manners » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:18 pm

NWS = non-Weekend S day. So, yes, a "special" S day.

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Post by The Great Fatsby » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:22 am

When I was on vacation in France I went into this great restaurant that served only chocolate in various forms. I had a "chocolate espresso," just cocoa and milk, no sugar at all. It was bitter like coffee, but surprisingly good...
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