My Floating S-Day Experiment

[wosnes]

For the last month or two I've been experimenting with not routinely taking S days (especially the weekends). I had the feeling that I was consuming more sweets/treats and snacks by observing regular weekend S days than I would by having the occasional S event.

There are 8-9 weekend days and another day or two allowed each month. I didn't think I would have that many S-events during any month.

I haven't kept track of how many S events there have been. I don't weigh regularly and don't know exactly what I weighed when I started this, though I do know it was one of two weights (3 pounds apart).

It's working. I weighed myself yesterday. Depending on what my starting weight was, I've lost 9 or 12 pounds. I'm saying 12 because it sounds better!

I don't indulge every time the spirit moves me, but I don't deny or deprive myself either. It's kind of nice to know that if I go out to dinner or there's some event on a random Wednesday night, I can partake if I choose to indulge. It's all about "sometimes."

Oh, I also eat only one "big" meal daily. I'd prefer that the big meal be at midday, but given the rest of my family's schedule, it's in the evening. So, breakfast and lunch are light meals and dinner is bigger.

[BrightAngel]

Congratulations.
It sounds like this modification is working very well for you.

I, personally, think that "total freedom" every weekend
is no way for most obese people to lose or maintain weight.

The NoS restrictions: "sometimes" and "don't be an Idiot" are vague.
Also, if those of us with a long history of obesity, could follow: "sometimes",
and could avoid being "Idots" around unlimited food...even for 2 days every week,
we would not have continual weight-problems.

NoS may bring some people psychological relief,
but the ultimate measure of success of any weight-loss eating plan (diet)
is whether or not it brings physical relief--i.e. weight-loss.

My own observation over a couple of years here on the forum is that
while "Vanilla NoS seems successful for rather disciplined "overweight" people,
most "obese" people, while using it,
can barely maintain their starting body-weight or drop 10% of their body-weight and maintain that loss.
I would rate this kind of maintenance or limited weight-loss for an obese person: "helpful", but not "successful".

[connorcream]

Howdy,
I was 182 for 5"8", overweight, but not obese, and vanilla NoS was not the answer for me.

When I started weighing daily coupled with counting my calories and then intelligently, limiting my eating, the pounds have been coming off.

In addition, I like these new successful habits.

[clarinetgal]

Congratulations, Wosnes! I'm glad that's working so well for you!

Edited to add: Connorcream, I found that Vanilla No S didn't work for me, either. Before the holidays started, I was doing a 'No S lite' plan, where I ate 3 meals a day with no snacks and no seconds and I allowed myself dessert once a day (usually with lunch), and the dessert had to fit on my plate. I've been having a little too much fun with the desserts lately, so I need to get back to my eating plan.

[mrsj]

As a newbie, I follow No S to the letter. I joined the wannabe thread and the perfect december thread. I feel that I've made a commitment to these people on these threads and that I'm accountable to someone.

I'm very happy that your modification works for you, but I would never do it. I would make anything an event-even the dog saying woof!

I've shrunk 2 kilos since joining No S, and I'm only on day 17. And I am obese.

[vmsurbat]

Thanks for sharing how your "experiment" is working out.

I've been wanting to thank you for your insightful comment (in a post awhile back) about the fact that there are really (weekends aside) only a handful of true S-days (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc) where "normal" eating patterns *might* go out the window.

It clarified for me something I had been inching my way towards. Namely, that I *like* having three meals a day with no snacks and no seconds. I enjoy my meals so much more now that there is really no reason for me to indulge in snacks and seconds on weekends. Nothing magically changes on a weekend that lets me snack mindlessly AND still enjoy my meals. And if one plate leaves me feeling satisfied on N-days, more than one plate on S-days does not. On the contrary, I feel overstuffed. So, I've eliminated those two S's for the time being--even on weekends. My current mantra: "I am NOT a snacker" which is reality for *me.*

On true holidays, our meal structure changes anyway, to 2 meals (light brunch, big feast later) and I already schedule in "snacks" mid-day but they are planned and tasty--more like fancy appetizers enjoyed before the fireplace in good company. Interestingly, I rarely feel stuffed on holidays....

Anyway, thanks for sharing your current approach.

[wosnes]

I'm very happy that your modification works for you, but I would never do it. I would make anything an event-even the dog saying woof!

I suppose I could do that, too. But it isn't an option. As I said, I don't indulge every time the spirit moves me. Floating S days are not an excuse to eat whatever I want whenever I want it. The only difference between what I'm doing and "vanilla No-S" is that I get to choose which two occasions are going to be S days/events every week. And, if there don't happen to be 1-2 weekly, so be it. And that's what I'm finding. I have fewer S days/events than by taking regular S days. I'm also enjoying them more.

It's making ME responsible, instead of the program.

For whatever reason, I tend to go out to eat more during the week than on the weekend. If I want to have an appetizer or a dessert or a fancy cocktail -- or all of them! -- I can. The interesting thing is that I usually DON'T!

I suspected I was eating more snacks, especially sweet snacks, with the weekends being regular S days than I would have had if they weren't. It seems I was right.

It's time for true confessions. While I did need to lose weight when I started No-S -- it wasn't as much as I need to lose now. I know that some of the weight gain is a side effect of a medication, but I suspected that the rest was from regular S days. I wasn't going crazy with the S days, but I know I was eating more than I would have if they weren't days to have sweets, snacks and seconds. I was actually eating more than I did BEFORE I started No-S!

I've been wanting to thank you for your insightful comment (in a post awhile back) about the fact that there are really (weekends aside) only a handful of true S-days (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc) where "normal" eating patterns *might* go out the window.

You're welcome. I truly think that the weekend S days can be very problematic. I don't believe that they're an excuse to go wild, just two days to lighten up a little. The times to go wild are those "special" days -- Thanksgiving, Christmas and so on.

Stop snacking.
Snacking, in my mind, is the big evil. No one is an angel 100% of the time, including me. I like chips and chocolate. But I've never, ever met an obese family that didn't treat snacking like meals. In many cases, people are eating close to seven "meals" a day. And many drink soda or sweetened drinks all the time instead of water. What ever happened to treating snack foods like they were only for special times? This boils down to taking control of your eating and learning moderation. If you can't stop snacking at home, then stop buying those foods, or have someone shop with you. Take active steps to curb your addiction to snack foods.

If you're eating 7 meals daily 7 days a week, then cutting down to just two days doing that is going to lead to weight loss. However, there will come a time when eating 7 meals daily only 2 days a week -- which is about 1/3 of the year! -- is going to stall weight loss or create weight gain. I think I'm an example of the fact that it doesn't even need to be that much extra snacking or food intake. It was more than I was eating previously! Doing that maybe 6-10 days a year isn't a problem. 104 is a problem.

[connorcream]

However, there will come a time when eating 7 meals daily only 2 days a week -- which is about 1/3 of the year! -- is going to stall weight loss or create weight gain. I think I'm an example of the fact that it doesn't even need to be that much extra snacking or food intake. It was more than I was eating previously! Doing that maybe 6-10 days a year isn't a problem. 104 is a problem.

Ditto, wosnes, ditto. Exactly what happened to me.

I have never binged, never got up in the middle of the night for a bite, never did the obvious things to gain weight, didn't snack on chips, ate whole foods (SB), etc.... I eat very little process foods. I gained because I did not learn the fundamental truth that 3500 calories equals 1 pound, regardless of the plan. I have learned this lesson, and I have positive results to show for it. Results I haven't seen in nearly 2 years!

[sheepish]

I've been thinking about this too because one of my problems is that I go out quite a lot during the week - in particular, I quite often get invited to friends' houses for dinner and they will make a three course meal.. which is kinda awkward on No S.

At the moment, I'm doing a combination of things to try and combat this - I feel like I want to do vanilla no S for a while at least before doing any modifications to it - but I think I might well end up with this modification in the end.

[marygrace]

After successfully doing vanilla NoS for a year, I switched over to something pretty much the same as this. I too would snack on the weekends for no real reason other than the fact that it was an S day and wasn't really happy about it. In a way, taking floating S events/days (unless it's a big day like Christmas or Thanksgiving, it's usually an S event) gives me the feeling of greater freedom, while eliminating the opportunity for mindless snacking. I like it.

I've also started to cut my portions down and have one main meal a day accompanied by two smaller ones. On vanilla NoS, I used to feel like I was "entitled" to three full plates of food a day---but I'm 5'5" and 118 lbs., and my physical activity consists of (lots of) walking and yoga---I don't really need that much food.

Anyways, wosnes, glad to hear this is working for you as well.

[Anoulie]

... but I'm 5'5" and 118 lbs.,

Seriously? Your BMI is 19.6 - that's so not obese. Or was that a typo?

[marygrace]

... but I'm 5'5" and 118 lbs.,

Seriously? Your BMI is 19.6 - that's so not obese. Or was that a typo?

I have no idea what my BMI is, but the height and weight I mentioned are correct. I'm a women's size 4 or 6, so I definitely consider myself pretty "medium" sized. While I've never been obese, I was about a size larger prior to starting NoS. After doing vanilla for a good while, I got rid of the vanity weight and was able to develop a healthier (read: more moderate) relationship with food and exercise. Eventually, vanilla began to feel sort of like training wheels that weren't quite serving me anymore---after ingraining in me the value of moderation, I was able to start playing with NoS as I thought it might serve me even better. At this point, I think avoiding snacks, sweets, and seconds while allowing myself a treat two (or occasionally three) times a week isn't a diet, a program, or anything else at all---it's just eating normally and in a way that makes me feel great physically and psychologically.

[wosnes]

... but I'm 5'5" and 118 lbs.,

Seriously? Your BMI is 19.6 - that's so not obese. Or was that a typo?

I have no idea what my BMI is, but the height and weight I mentioned are correct. I'm a women's size 4 or 6, so I definitely consider myself pretty "medium" sized. While I've never been obese, I was about a size larger prior to starting NoS. After doing vanilla for a good while, I got rid of the vanity weight and was able to develop a healthier (read: more moderate) relationship with food and exercise. Eventually, vanilla began to feel sort of like training wheels that weren't quite serving me anymore---after ingraining in me the value of moderation, I was able to start playing with NoS as I thought it might serve me even better. At this point, I think avoiding snacks, sweets, and seconds while allowing myself a treat two (or occasionally three) times a week isn't a diet, a program, or anything else at all---it's just eating normally and in a way that makes me feel great physically and psychologically.

As far as I'm concerned, size 4=6 is small -- or even extra-small!

[~reneew]

wosnes... Please keep us updated on how you do. I have real problems with S days. I eat because I "can". Hunger has nothing to do with it. I seriously gain 5-10 pounds every blessed weekend! Honestly! I sometimes wonder if I had started out on no S without any S days, would it work better for me? I have trouble now NOT taking my S days because it's engrained that I can.

[Jammin' Jan]

I don't overeat on S Days, but I do like to snack -- my downfall! It makes it so much harder when Monday rolls around. But when I don't take S Days on the weekends, I am able to do N Days on the weekends.

I think I like the idea that "S" stands for "Special" Days, and not just plain old Saturdays and Sundays.

[wosnes]

wosnes... Please keep us updated on how you do. I have real problems with S days. I eat because I "can". Hunger has nothing to do with it. I seriously gain 5-10 pounds every blessed weekend! Honestly! I sometimes wonder if I had started out on no S without any S days, would it work better for me? I have trouble now NOT taking my S days because it's engrained that I can.

I'll keep posting how things are going.

Could some of that weight you gain every weekend be water weight due to too much sodium? I mean, 5-10 pounds every weekend is 17,500-35,000 extra calories and I find that really hard to believe!

I also still find myself thinking "Oh, it's Saturday so I can have this," and then remind myself that I'm not doing that anymore. Then there's the other side that allows me to make a dessert or treat when there's no S in sight!

For instance, yesterday I noticed that I had several apples that needed to be used or thrown out. I've been making applesauce at least weekly for over a month now, and I wanted to do something different. So I made apple crisp.

I sometimes wonder if I had started out on no S without any S days, would it work better for me?

I'm not sure if you mean absolutely no S days or just not regular, every week S days. I don't think NO S days is a good idea. It's too restrictive and doesn't teach us to deal with sweets and treats in a normal way.

I don't think hunger should be the only reason we eat a specific food or even the only reason we eat -- pleasure enters in this, too. But I don't think we should eat like that day in and day out. Shoot, that's how we all probably got here in the first place!

[BrightAngel]

While I did need to lose weight when I started No-S
-- it wasn't as much as I need to lose now.
S days... I know I was eating more than I would have
if they weren't days to have sweets, snacks and seconds.
I was actually eating more than I did BEFORE I started No-S!
Doing that maybe 6-10 days a year isn't a problem. 104 is a problem.

My own experience, and my observation of others,
tells me this is a very common problem,
and I think it is the primary defect of "Vanilla NoS" for many people.

And, for some, while Bingeing on S days might lessen with more time spent on the Plan,
S day overeating combined with N day normal eating
seems to become the status quo for most people...even after being on No S for a long time
This, of course, will bring weight-gain over time.

[wosnes]

My own experience, and my observation of others,
tells me this is a very common problem,
and I think it is the primary defect of "Vanilla NoS" for many people.

And, for some, while Bingeing on S days might lessen with more time spent on the Plan,
S day overeating combined with N day normal eating
seems to become the status quo for most people...even after being on No S for a long time
This, of course, will bring weight-gain over time.

I wasn't bingeing or, with a couple of exceptions, eating a great deal -- but it was more than I had been eating previously.

To reiterate, I think S Days should be limited to 6-10 yearly and one can go wild then. There can be up to 2 S events weekly, but no more. Those aren't license to go wild -- just relax and enjoy.

And about the apple crisp. I've been thinking about that for quite some time. There are some desserts that were created largely to use ingredients that were past their prime -- fruit, stale bread and so on. Generally they're not incredibly sweet, though they might be pretty high in fat. Many of them have been considered breakfast foods in the past. They're generally part of a meal for us -- not a special treat.

[Mavilu]

While I did need to lose weight when I started No-S
-- it wasn't as much as I need to lose now.
S days... I know I was eating more than I would have
if they weren't days to have sweets, snacks and seconds.
I was actually eating more than I did BEFORE I started No-S!
Doing that maybe 6-10 days a year isn't a problem. 104 is a problem.

My own experience, and my observation of others,
tells me this is a very common problem,
and I think it is the primary defect of "Vanilla NoS" for many people.

And, for some, while Bingeing on S days might lessen with more time spent on the Plan,
S day overeating combined with N day normal eating
seems to become the status quo for most people...even after being on No S for a long time
This, of course, will bring weight-gain over time.

Yep, this might be what happens to me too, in fact, I've becomed so observant of S days that I get a bit cranky or miffed if the weekend comes and I don't have any "goodies", it seems like a missed opportunity to indulge.
I gather that when it comes to sweets (which is the only S I do in S days), I might be eating more sweets now than I ever did.
Your experiment is looking more and more interesting, Wosnes; I think I will do it myself once December ends (now I'm on December challenge and I want to continue it).

[wosnes]

I'm not participating in the challenge and I don't use HabitCal, but I think you could do either with floating S days. You'd just have to tally up the S events at the end of a week -- no more than 2!

Mavilu, I'm not suggesting you do that, just saying I think it could be done.

[Mavilu]

I'm sure it could be done... I just don't wanna!.
Actually, I'm thinking of weaning myself off the rigid S days observance first for about a month or so, before I relax a bit and start observing them casually here and there, just to get the idea that I don't have to observe the S days at every change, because let me tell you, the habit is quite ingrained by now.
Christmas would make that too difficult for me and I don't want to complicate it.

[noni]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch? You don't feel deprived? I would love to be able to try that because my vanilla No S isn't working for me anymore. I lost weight the first few months I started this diet even with mostly wild S days, then after that I started to become sloppy as well as keep the wild S days, gained back several pounds, went back to vanilla No S with the Nov. and Dec challenges and my weight loss has stalled after losing a few pounds the first week. Of course I've keep my wild S days intact as well.

I'm afraid of starting this now. Not only am I in the Dec. challenge but with all the Christmas goodies floating around, experimenting on this may be disasterous just now.

But as far as I'm concerned, the good habits are lost on me everytime the weekend comes and goes and Mon calls for lots of self-control.

[babyprrr]

I may try this too. I initially lost weight on NoS then gained back cuz of out of control S weekends. For example, I went to London with a friend last weekend and the WHOLE weekend from sat morning to sunday evening was out of control, three meals a day eating out, and we finished every morsel of food left on our plates, and you know what restaurant portions are like.

I came back, and on Tuesday, went shopping for a new dress and nearly cried because I couldn't zip up my usual size. So out of control weekends DO make a difference.

I'm going to try three solid meals a day, 2 S-events a week taken anyday I like, and maybe one mega S crazy day a month on average like Christmas, my birthday, etc.

[wosnes]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch? You don't feel deprived? .

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean to say. I think there are 3 things that help me stick to it.

1. I eat very little processed/manufactured food and no reduced-fat products. I eat from the green and yellow boxes here. I think the whole food and real fats help keep me satisfied both physically and emotionally.

2. When I started No-S, I missed the instruction to limit food to one plateful. I have one serving of whatever is being served. When I serve salad, it's in a bowl and I have more vegetables on the plate. If I'm out and a meal is served in courses, so be it. I don't think about whether or not it would fit on one plate.

3. Before I even thought about the floating S days, I decided to allow myself a handful of cookies every day if I want them. The cookies are homemade 99% of the time. Exactly how many I eat depends on the size of the cookies -- the bigger they are the fewer I eat.

My daughter has been doing her own version of No-S (like Reinhard, she came up with it on her own) since August and has lost 40+ pounds. She snacks daily, but has a set group of things she can snack on. She allows herself even fewer S-events than I do -- about 2-3 month -- and doesn't feel deprived. She's also chosen a few days, like Thanksgiving, to say "anything goes."

[BrightAngel]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch? .

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean to say.
1. I eat very little processed/manufactured food and no reduced-fat products.
I eat from the green and yellow boxes here.

Wosnes, Sounds like a great modification to the NoS plan.
Good luck with it.

[wosnes]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch? .

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean to say.
1. I eat very little processed/manufactured food and no reduced-fat products.
I eat from the green and yellow boxes here.

Wosnes, Sounds like a great modification to the NoS plan.
Good luck with it.

I was rereading the info about processed foods and the author says to read labels. I figure if it has I label that I need to read before I decide whether or not to eat it, I don't need to be eating it. I feel much the same way about nutritional analysis.

[reinhard]

Wosnes,

I'm glad these mods are working so well for you -- and your daughter.

They might not be vanilla, but they sound "systematically moderate," which is the important thing.

Reinhard

[trytrytry]

I've not been here much recently, but I find this thread very interesting, as this is exactly what I was thinking today...

This became a really long post - feel free to scroll down to *** for a summary

So to start from the beginning:
I started noS in May 2008 and was doing vanilla noS with tracking for about 8 months.
Then for about a ten months, due to health problems that affected my eating as well, I was doing noS when I could, but I was less strict, no tracking.
For the next two months I went back to vanilla noS with tracking.
Over the last month I kept "falling off the wagon" and struggled with a lot of my old emotional eating issues.

Weight wise, until last month I was more or less maintaining my initial weight loss. Due to the recent slip-ups, now, I am probably slightly going up, but I am still lower than when I first heard of/started noS. My weight isn't probably a good indicator of success though, as 1) due the above mentioned health issues my activity fell dramatically 2) at some point I started losing weight rapidly due to the illness (so ironically, when I look at the pictures of myself, I look best on those when I was most ill!!)

My ultimate goal regarding my eating habits is exactly what wosnes describes: three meals, occasional snack when I find something really appetizing or it is a special event. I also agree that there are actually just few S days per year. I am also a big fan of unprocessed/home made food - they keep me satisfied, they taste better and they are of course much healthier.

And while I think that this structured/unstructured way is the way to go, I would not be here without noS. And without the eight months of strict vanilla no S. These were crucial for me in several ways:

a) to retrain my body - I actually don't feel hungry between the meals any more. I do not need snacks to keep me going through the day, whereas in the past there was no way I would go for seven hours (which now is easy) without a snack (a healthy or unhealthy depending on mood/availability).

b) to realize what snacking does to my body - it makes me want to snack more and more... it makes me eat less healthy food, because I don't get hungry enough to go through an effort of making a proper meal. It makes me lose control and it can easily lead to overeating.

c) to realize what excess of sweets does to my body - it also makes me want sweets more and more, despite the fact that I end up enjoying them less and less... The more sweets I would eat, the more bloating, discomfort, pain issues I would suffer from. I almost always end up with a headache when I overindulge for few days and then go back to no sweets.

d) to learn what my body likes and wants. I see a dramatic difference in my general well being when I follow no snacks, no sweets, no seconds (which can too easily blur into snacking) principles.

Since discovering no S I learned/realized that snacks are almost never worth it. They disrupt a system that works so well for my body. I want to be hungry for my next meal, I enjoy it more, I end up making better food choices. And I can still have the food I would pass on - just later, as a part of the meal.
Sweets are for me difficult to give up completely (which I would love to do, because I believe that sugar just isn't good for you), hence I do not plan on giving up occasional S events. However, as a consequence of "noS training" I also make better dessert choices - I am much more fussy, I would rather have a piece of good quality chocolate than sugary chocolate bar; I will choose home made cookies/cake over sugar loaded supermarket "I-do-not-understand-the-ingredient list" sweets. And I will choose them because I they taste so much better and not because they are actually healthier. And this might sound silly, but I have actually learnt not to eat things I do not like. Because surprise surprise - it is not enough to be labelled a sweet to taste good.

***
Sorry for a lenghty post. I think what I am trying to say is that I do believe that an occasional dessert/snack might be a more natural way of eating and a way to stop overindulgance over the weekends. But I would never get to appreciate that, if it wasn't for noS and months of vanilla noS, which for me was an excellent lesson to retrain my body, teach me control and moderation.
***

And I am posting it also to re-iterate these things in my head and regain my control that I lost recently due to a bit of emotional upheaval and tiredness (because suprise suprise again - sweets and snacks did not make me feel any better)...

So now that I bored you all my last sentence: Reinhard - thank you!!! And thank you to all of you that where here when I was starting with lots of help, advice and support!!![/i]

[kccc]

Trytrytry, that was a great post. You've captured my own experience - what Wosnes is doing makes perfect sense to me NOW, but would never have worked for me before I'd built the No-S habits. (I'm not sure it would even work for me now - there are a lot of places in my life where I do better with a bit of structure. But at this point I could see it working , and am quite sure it would not have before.)

I especially like this part, where you describe what vanilla No-S taught you:

a) to retrain my body - I actually don't feel hungry between the meals any more. I do not need snacks to keep me going through the day, whereas in the past there was no way I would go for seven hours (which now is easy) without a snack (a healthy or unhealthy depending on mood/availability).

b) to realize what snacking does to my body - it makes me want to snack more and more... it makes me eat less healthy food, because I don't get hungry enough to go through an effort of making a proper meal. It makes me lose control and it can easily lead to overeating.

c) to realize what excess of sweets does to my body - it also makes me want sweets more and more, despite the fact that I end up enjoying them less and less... The more sweets I would eat, the more bloating, discomfort, pain issues I would suffer from. I almost always end up with a headache when I overindulge for few days and then go back to no sweets.

d) to learn what my body likes and wants. I see a dramatic difference in my general well being when I follow no snacks, no sweets, no seconds (which can too easily blur into snacking) principles.

So, not boring at all! Very useful.

[marygrace]

***
Sorry for a lenghty post. I think what I am trying to say is that I do believe that an occasional dessert/snack might be a more natural way of eating and a way to stop overindulgance over the weekends. But I would never get to appreciate that, if it wasn't for noS and months of vanilla noS, which for me was an excellent lesson to retrain my body, teach me control and moderation.
***

[/i]

Agreed!

[paprad]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch?

Yes, that's pretty much what I mean to say.

when i began NoS last week, I so looked forward to the weekend - and with all the hubris of a new convert, I convinced myself I wouldn't go overboard, - would just have that one snack extra, or that one sweet extra. Hah - Sunday's almost over and I look back with a rather chastened feeling to 2 days of pretty much overdone eating - lots of sweets, frieds, seconds and so on. I am quite obese, so I fear that allowing myself to do this on S days won't work. I read through this thread and I think Wosnes has a point.

Here's what I plan to do for this month - I figure 2 S days of "sometimes" means one S per S day = 8 S treats. I plan to cut out 8 coupons and stick them in my wallet. Each coupon will allow me one S - either a second or a sweet or a snack - and I will tear it up when I have had that. I haven't figured out whether 8 coupons per month is a good plot, or 2 coupons per week. I suspect 8 coupons could get eaten up by Week 2 and wont' allow me much pressure-release vents. I think, Wosnes, this is what you've been allowing yourself? I thought I'd use the coupon method to keep an easy track of the allowed S's - rather than use another journal for this.

If I go beyond these 8 coupons, I will mark myself as failed on those days. Holidays/anniversaries will be exempt and those will be W days for allowing some wild behaviour.

[wosnes]

I agree with trytrytry. Using S events as needed, no matter what day they fall on, seems more natural to me than two days weekly being S days. The only time I use S events on the weekend now is if it's a special day -- like today: Mother's Day. I used one earlier this week because it was my daughter's birthday.

[idontknow]

This thread is really interesting. I had worked out that 8 S days each month is approx a quarter of the month, and I know that if I eat snacks, sweets and seconds on that many days each month I will not lose weight. I've just finished my second weekend of s days and I'm feeling bloated and a bit sick. I have enjoyed my n days (only 1 failure so far) but when I get to the weekend I have just relapsed into old habits. I didn't really want to, but didn't know how else to handle the freedom I'm intrigued by the idea of 2 's events' each week - I think I'll try this and see how it goes.

[wosnes]

This thread is really interesting. I had worked out that 8 S days each month is approx a quarter of the month, and I know that if I eat snacks, sweets and seconds on that many days each month I will not lose weight. I've just finished my second weekend of s days and I'm feeling bloated and a bit sick. I have enjoyed my n days (only 1 failure so far) but when I get to the weekend I have just relapsed into old habits. I didn't really want to, but didn't know how else to handle the freedom I'm intrigued by the idea of 2 's events' each week - I think I'll try this and see how it goes.

In addition to the two events weekly, I do take most holidays as S days. I just don't worry about what I eat on holidays, but I rarely have an "S day gone wild."

[paprad]

I interpreted the (sometimes) that followed the exception for S days as being a number of S events. I'd guess the actual number of S events that would work for each individual would depend on that person's specific circumstance. For myself, given that I have a huge amount of weight to lose - and that I am starting with a snacking habit that has been pretty much ingrained in me, it's tougher to leave "sometimes" as a kind of loose metric - I opened a bag of chips on Sat, telling myself, it's okay, just today - and before Sunday evening rolled around, I had made 5 forays into that, each followed by a "just this once". And this doesn't count the lemon tart, the mangoes and ice-cream, the nuts and - ouch, the list goes on. Clearly, where I stand, I need even my occasional treats to be controlled. Hence the 8 events that I'm giving myself this month - and till I get some results showing. I think that would still be within the principles of vanilla No-S. I hope that as time goes on and my body is less hooked onto treats, I will be able to introduce more events - and yet, need them less.

[paprad]

uhoh, I just read this in Reinhard's podcast on S Days

For the rest of you, before I discuss S-days in themselves, I'd just like to emphasize that you should not worry about S-days AT ALL until you've got your N-days down. If you can't go a month without having more than 1 or two botched N-days, that's where your focus should be. Don't let S-days distract you from this far more basic, far more important issue. Because without a solid backbone of N-days, S-days don't even have any meaning. Use the online habitcal, or a paper habit calender to help you get a handle on what your compliance is like if you're having trouble guesstimating.

Perhaps I am panicking too soon then - this was my first experience with S days - and I had not had a failure free week of N days. I guess I need to be more patient, get greater control over N days and then worry about S days

[DaveMc]

Perhaps I am panicking too soon then - this was my first experience with S days - and I had not had a failure free week of N days. I guess I need to be more patient, get greater control over N days and then worry about S days

I think that's wise ... wosnes and others have been at this for quite a while, and they've learned from experience whether the "vanilla" NoS rules work for them (and have concluded that they need a slightly different but related approach). But I think that conclusion is best reached after you've had some time to find out for yourself how well (or poorly) the default approach works for you. Also, once the habits of N day eating are firmly established, it'll be a lot easier for you to make modifications without feeling too deprived. (For my part, the vanilla rules do work, and in another six months or a year I should be down the last ten pounds I want to get rid of ... but not everyone has the same experience! I'm also a relatively active 39-year-old male, and we seem to be the demographic that has the easiest time with getting unmodified NoS to work for us.)

[paprad]

Thanks, DaveMc, that's very sensible advice

[wosnes]

Wosnes...Do you mean to say that you take up to only 2 events a week? As I understand this, it is only having, let's say for instance, a dessert on Monday and perhaps seconds on Thurs. and the rest of the week is much like Vanilla No S with a light breakfast and lunch? You don't feel deprived?

I have to say that I feel less deprived now than I did when I was taking every Saturday and Sunday as S days.

[Starla]

uhoh, I just read this in Reinhard's podcast on S Days

For the rest of you, before I discuss S-days in themselves, I'd just like to emphasize that you should not worry about S-days AT ALL until you've got your N-days down. If you can't go a month without having more than 1 or two botched N-days, that's where your focus should be. Don't let S-days distract you from this far more basic, far more important issue. Because without a solid backbone of N-days, S-days don't even have any meaning. Use the online habitcal, or a paper habit calender to help you get a handle on what your compliance is like if you're having trouble guesstimating.

Perhaps I am panicking too soon then - this was my first experience with S days - and I had not had a failure free week of N days. I guess I need to be more patient, get greater control over N days and then worry about S days

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Nothing is a better teacher than your own experience. Let yourself experience S days in all their variety - binge fest to selected treats. See how you feel after each kind. When you start to eat less on S days because you don't want to binge and not because you shouldn't binge, you're on your way to permanent change. Enjoy the freedom of S days and concentrate on N days. Your goal is to form eating habits that will last the rest of your life; some wild weekends at the beginning of this are really meaningless when you take a long-term perspective.

Good luck!

[paprad]

Just wanted to add my appreciation for all the replies I got. The principles of NoS apart, I am so delighted to have found this forum - the support is amazing. Thank you, all.

[leafy_greens]

... but I'm 5'5" and 118 lbs.,

Seriously? Your BMI is 19.6 - that's so not obese. Or was that a typo?

I have no idea what my BMI is, but the height and weight I mentioned are correct. I'm a women's size 4 or 6, so I definitely consider myself pretty "medium" sized. While I've never been obese, I was about a size larger prior to starting NoS. After doing vanilla for a good while, I got rid of the vanity weight and was able to develop a healthier (read: more moderate) relationship with food and exercise. Eventually, vanilla began to feel sort of like training wheels that weren't quite serving me anymore---after ingraining in me the value of moderation, I was able to start playing with NoS as I thought it might serve me even better. At this point, I think avoiding snacks, sweets, and seconds while allowing myself a treat two (or occasionally three) times a week isn't a diet, a program, or anything else at all---it's just eating normally and in a way that makes me feel great physically and psychologically.

This is great news for people like me, who feel like the training wheels might be on forever. BTW, I'm about a size 8 myself, and while certainly not obese, I sort of resent when people say that I'm thin in an accusatory manner. Even normal sized people can have food/binging issues, and my goal is much like yours - to lose the "vanity" weight and just not be obsessed anymore. Even if no weight comes off but I get my head right, it will be worth it to me.

[oolala53]

Just to say, a 4 or 6 is not a medium. And I hope you think medium is okay anyway, at least in general. Even though the average American female population is considered overweight, so not necessarily something to model, you would still fit into a very small category of women. Search for "a BMI calculator you'll like" and you'll find a site that compares your weight to other women of your height and age. I'd say any woman who is in the 25 %ile or below in any age group in America who is worrying about weight is doing it for purely cosmetic reasons, which is her right, but No S is a good plan for anyone, I'd say. I think all those women (-25% ile) would be at a healthy weight, and the more women at healthy weights that we think are beautiful, the better for everyone, IMHO.

BTW, French women have the lowest average BMI's in Europe. It's 23.3. and most of them think they're too fat, while English women have the highest and they're okay with that. So it's definitely an arbitrary, inside job.

The real issue is feeling that our real needs for food and what we actually eat are in sync. Good luck to us all on that.

[satikat]

1. I eat very little processed/manufactured food and no reduced-fat products. I eat from the green and yellow boxes here. I think the whole food and real fats help keep me satisfied both physically and emotionally.

these are my guidelines for eating for the most part. I am aware when I'm having a "red" food, but if i really want some ice cream, i'm going to have it.

i wonder about designating crackers as a red food though- I'm assuming the author mean bought crackers, but lots of crackers have no more chemicals added than a loaf of bread.

I would probably disagree on french fries too. Is it an unhealthy cooking choice? Hell yeah! But it doesn't render the potato unrecognizable. (I usually bake fries in the oven, but do enjoy and crave the occasional serving from five guys or a restaurant.)

[clarinetgal]

leafy_greens, I could have written your post. I'm wearing size 4s and 6s, and people tell me all of the time how 'tiny' I am, but I aso have food issues, so I'm using No S to help me learn how to eat like a normal person and not be obsessed about food.

[Nichole]

RE: Thin comments in accusatory manner

When I lost 20 lbs last year - approx 150 down to 130 - my husband's aunt told me I was looking like "skin and bones." For some reason, this was VERY hurtful. I was very taken aback. I felt like defending myself because it felt like she was accusing me of being anorexic! What she didn't know was that I had been eating more and more healthy and whole foods and loving it. And exercising regularly. I was also preparing my body for possible pregnancy. I don't think people should comment on weight, ever.

Also, I really like that chart! Glad to say that I (mostly) follow it! I do like the occasional chip, lol.

[OT]

I am switching to having S Events as opposed to free for all S Days as well.

I have a confession to make-when I first started No S over a year ago I didn't do S Days. At all. Looking back though,I don't remember feeling deprived or anything.Maybe because my meals were still very substantial and delicious.I just remember that it made perfect sense and I felt great eating the No S way. 7 days a week.It worked perfectly well for me for about 6 months-I lost a few pounds of vanity weight and the diet fitted really well with my lifestyle.

However,then I developed a slight obsession with going to the gym/reducing my body fat down to very low levels and generally went a bit fitness crazy. I felt that I needed something more than No S to strip away those last few inches of fat I had around my abs.Vain,I know. So I discovered intermittent fasting which worked wonders for me (and still does).

However I gradually let my good old No S habits slip a bit-I felt that because I was fasting for 24 hrs twice a week I deserved a few extra bits of fruit with my dinner and a snack a bit later in the evening. Before I knew it I was back to permasnacking on nuts/cheese/dried fruit all evening! I actually put on a bit of weight! So I decided to take control and get back to strict No S.

When I started combining strict No S with intermittent fasting about 4 months ago I decided to do it properly,i.e. introduce S Days as I felt my diet was too strict during the week and I needed to relax a bit on weekends. Ever since I have been overindulging way more that I would like to on weekends and now it's got to a point where I feel it's hindering my fitness goals and undoing most of the good work I put in on weekedays. I still eat very healthy on weekends,I just eat SO MUCH! I can actually eat my bodyweight in fruit,chicken and salad!

So yesterday I decided that enough was enough-I don't like the way overeating makes me feel-bloated and tired. My problem is that although I can perfectly well go for 36 hours with no food at all,once I do start eating,my appetite is insatiable! I could eat for England if it was an Olympic sport! I MUST have rules which stop me from doing so because my stomach certainly won't-I swear it's like a black hole!

So I will now be having one S event on each S day.Today,my first saturday,was great-I had a delicious breakfast,lunch and dinner and after dinner my S was an extra small plate of fruit,nuts,a slice of Brie and a glass of red wine. I don't feel deprived at all and there really isn't anything else I would have liked. Let's hope this works in the long term!

Wow,long post,sorry!

[Anoulie]

I'll have to resurrect this old thread.

I've lost the weight I wanted to lose on No S, kept it off, and only failed twice since I started No S.

Two things are bothering me about "vanilla", though:
1. on S days, I tend to graze on sweets all day
2. during the week, when I want to have ice cream with my friends or buy a donut at the mall, I can't

So I figured I'd take three S events per week. Each S event has to fit on a saucer (otherwise, the S event could turn into mindless grazing) and I have to choose what to eat before I start eating (like with N day meals).

The advantages
1. no mindless grazing --> no waste of money, no excess calories
2. works better in everyday life

Thoughts?

[kccc]

Anoulie, sounds as if you're at the right place to try a structured mod of this nature. (Since this thread was started, I wrote one on "phases of No-S" which has been stickied. If you read it, I think you'll recognize where you are now.)

Congrats on succeeding with your weight loss!