A Freak No More

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat May 01, 2010 1:05 pm

What's truly sad about this is that no matter where I go I will see someone who looks like this. It's certainly not freakish anymore; it's common.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Sat May 01, 2010 4:35 pm

It's sadly all too common. I remember once looking around me in the mall, and noticing how almost every person I saw was overweight......I just didn't see them and automatically NOTICE they were overweight, because everybody else was, too, and they no longer stood out.

What would once have been freakish obesity is now common and even accepted as "normal." When I was little (and this is only about 20 years ago) I was heavy and really stood out and got teased; nowadays I would fit right in because even kids are fat. Gastric bypass used to be a very rare procedure, something done as a last resort on people so fat that nothing else had worked. Nowadays, people don't even bother trying to diet, they just go under the knife in one of the zillions of new obesity surgery centers popping up all over. They're even having to make plus-sized coffins and cremation chambers, because so many people are so fat that they can't even fit in a normal sized grave container anymore. I've also heard complaints from disabled people that, when they go to the supermarket, mobility carts intended for disabled people are being used by fat people either too lazy or unwilling to walk around the store.

When my French friend was here visiting, he was shocked when we went to the drive-in movie and saw a hugely fat woman sitting in the back of a pick-up truck. She was so fat she couldn't walk, and her family was bringing her candy and goodies from the concession stand. I didn't really notice, but he said he had never seen anyone so fat and I had to explain to him that it's really not that uncommon here.

I think part of the problem is that we HAVE normalized bad eating behavior. If you're fat, you now have a "disease" and need surgery; somehow, we're no longer responsible for our eating behavior and choices. As Americans, too many of us have stuck our heads in the sand and pretended that obesity is just something that happens, instead of the truth: it's a direct result of our gluttony and laziness. Until we address the real issues behind the current obesity epidemic, which I believe are out of control snacking, junk food, and huge portion sizes, there will not be enough surgery in the world to make a dent.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat May 01, 2010 4:58 pm

RJLupin wrote:
Gastric bypass used to be a very rare procedure, something done as a last resort on people so fat that nothing else had worked. Nowadays, people don't even bother trying to diet, they just go under the knife in one of the zillions of new obesity surgery centers popping up all over.

Oh, this one makes me see red! It's not only that people don't bother to diet, they're being encouraged by their physicians (regular docs, not bariatric surgeons).

My neighbor has about 100 pounds to lose. She was scheduled for bariatric surgery, but another totally unrelated health issue caused it to be cancelled. I'd given her grief about having the surgery since she first mentioned it, because I didn't think she needed it.

But her doctor told her it was the ONLY way for anyone to lose as much weight as she needs to lose. I told her that her doctor needed to have her license to practice medicine revoked -- and I don't think that's too far from the truth.

Over the last couple of months I've talked to her a lot about food and weight loss and even cooked dinner for her for a while. She's also started going to the gym. She's lost about 11 pounds in the last 2-3 weeks.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Sat May 01, 2010 5:30 pm

I know exactly what you mean, it makes me angry, too. I saw this guy on TV, on a show called "The 500 Pound Virgin" or something. He was literally something like 400 pounds overweight, a total couch potato, and just a mess. Of course his health was terrible. No doubt he'd be told "gastric bypass is the only way you can lose weight!" but of course that's total BS. Instead, he started following a lower carb/calorie diet, and doing as much exercise as he could with the help of a trainer. A few years later, he's lost ALL the excess weight, and now runs his own personal training business. The only surgery he needed was to remove the excess skin.

Compare that to another show, where there was this huge woman who weighed almost 1000 pounds and was stuck in bed. She had been trying to get gastric bypass for years, gaining weight the whole time. She finally got the surgery, and it killed her. Had she been on a diet, even a hospital-based one, the whole time she would have been much thinner and probably still alive today. Instead, she sat in bed and gorged, and expected surgery to do the work for her. And, it cost her her life.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Sat May 01, 2010 6:38 pm

RJLupin wrote: Nowadays, people don't even bother trying to diet,
they just go under the knife in one of the zillions of new obesity surgery centers popping up all over.

I am one of those people who are PRO-Gastric Bypass.
I'm extremely familiar with this issue from years of study,
and my own personal experience,
and I can strongly assert that the above-quoted statement IS SIMPLY NOT THE CASE,
and is a totally inaccurate statement for at least 99% of those who undergo WLS.

17 years ago, at 271 lbs, I had WLS, and it saved my life.
At that point in my life, it was LITERALLY the ONLY way I could lose weight.
There are many different kinds of WLS.
Mine was an open RNY with no shortening of the intestine, and therefore no malabsorption...
My body still digests every calorie eaten.
I lost about 100 lbs as a result of this, and maintained that loss for many years,
before finally, about 6 years ago, weighing 190 lbs, I was ready to
seriously diet my way down to "normal" weight,
and I have been working to maintain that now, for over 4 years.
My Daily Thread contains a lot of detailed information about my experience with this.

However, of course, WLS doesn't change the fact
that one still has to work very hard to become and stay "normal" weight.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat May 01, 2010 8:27 pm

I wouldn't say I'm ANTI gastric bypass, but I don't think it should be the first option offered nor should patients be told it's the only way they can lose weight. It's just not true across the board.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Sat May 01, 2010 9:23 pm

I wouldn't say I'm ANTI gastric bypass, but I don't think it should be the first option offered nor should patients be told it's the only way they can lose weight. It's just not true across the board.

I totally agree. It seems like folks are far too likely to jump the gun on getting WLS and it is prescribed far too readily to individuals who really do have other options and/or aren't prepared to do what it takes to keep the weight off in the long run. I've known of 4 people IRL who have had WLS. For one woman, it was a godsend. She lost a massive amount of weight and has kept it off for years. Another lady initially lost the weight and then regained it all back. The other two individuals died of complications directly related to WLS. Scary!

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Sun May 02, 2010 1:44 am

An addition to my prior statement.

During the past 17 years,
as well as extensive research on the issue,
and my own personal experience with WLS,
I am personally connected to more than 200 people who have had gastric bypasses,
and have online relationships with many, many more.

Not even one, of those many, many people,
had WLS before working extremely hard at many, many diets,
and every singe one who has been successful,
has worked extremely hard at dieting AFTER their WLS.

While there may be an occasional, unusual person who has WLS before extensive dieting,
or without a great deal of agonizing over that difficult choice,
such a case is actually very, very rare.

The above quoted statement is Extremely Inaccurate,
and although, that line of thinking is not uncommon,
the vast majority of us who have experienced WLS,
find it extremely insulting.

clarinetgal · Post by **clarinetgal** » Sun May 02, 2010 5:35 am

I actually saw someone at Costco today who looked about as fat as the man in the picture. I felt very sad for him.

Girl Next Door · Post by **Girl Next Door** » Sun May 02, 2010 2:00 pm

At some point in the not-too-distant past I realized that I was obese. (Technically, now, I'm about 6 pounds past "overweight".) There are an awful lot of people who look a lot like me and are even heavier. I don't think I stand out at all. I don't think the gentleman in the picture would stand out today too much either.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Sun May 02, 2010 3:24 pm

wosnes wrote:I wouldn't say I'm ANTI gastric bypass, but I don't think it should be the first option offered nor should patients be told it's the only way they can lose weight. It's just not true across the board.

I am pretty much anti gastric bypass except in the most extreme of cases, which is certainly not the way it's being used now. I saw some show about an entire family of five who underwent the surgery. Their "before" meals definitely weren't the kind of food that people who were seriously trying to lose weight would be eating. After surgery, the dad was losing weight slowly because he wasn't willing to give up his beer. I don't think that bodes well for his long-term success. Of the three people I know of in real life of underwent surgery, none of them is doing well. One of them had the lap-band, and failed to lose any weight. Sure, she couldn't eat huge amounts of food quickly anymore, but instead she drank milkshakes and other liquids all day. The other two had the actual bypass done, where they cut out their intestines or whatever. Both of them were fast food junkies before surgery, and remained so after....they just ate smaller amounts of food more frequently. They changed absolutely nothing about their lifestyles, and surgery didn't fix whatever was going on with them psychologically that caused them to over-eat.

Long-term, many gastric bypass patients gain the weight back, AND start to suffer various complications from the radical surgery they underwent. Some people try and have it reversed, which isn't always possible. I'm sure for some people there's simply no other option, but I am willing to bet that's very rare. The surgery itself can kill you, and some of those mega fat people on TV who underwent surgery to "save their life" died from it. It seems to me that, rather than cutting out organs that you actually really need, it would be better for people that big to undergo rigorous psychiatric treatment, along with possible medication, and an in-patient dietary program along with food retraining to address the real issues. Gastric bypass is big business and big money, so it's no surprise that surgeons are now recommending it to and performing it on practically anyone who comes through the door.

oliviamanda · Post by **oliviamanda** » Mon May 03, 2010 1:04 pm

It is getting very common to see people that are very overweight. I am having a tough time watching someone I work with struggle with food addiction. This person apparently lost a lot of weight through diet and exercise, but now is back to the old habits and is gaining back the weight and a lot more. It really upsets me. I'm not sure what part of the situation bothers me the most. Maybe it's because most people try to hide their addictions. But at work I am witness to this detrimental behavior all day long. It does sadden me. And it's difficult to watch. I'm mad at myself for letting it bother me.

~reneew · Post by **~reneew** » Mon May 03, 2010 4:20 pm

I agree that it is getting way too common to see very overweight people and my heart breaks for them all because I understand. I think sometimes that the label of "disease" is a brush-off excuse and it shouldn't be used when it refers to overeating or alcoholism. Both start out as a choice, and escelate into an addiction. I believe overeating can be a true addiction. I am addicted. I have been truely addicted to a few things, and the pull is the same. I went a few times to an overeater's annonymous group, but left because I had a problem with the label as a disease. When it's mostly in the head... though alcohol, drugs, tobacco and (I believe) food have a true physical aspect of addiction... I don't see how they can call it a disease. I think of a disease as a permanent physical problem. Diseases are treatable, but usually can't go away. Overeating is , I repeat is treatable. Extremely difficult, but treatable. By labeling it as a disease, I think we think "permanent". And, I'm not going there in my mind! I'm going to get healthy and thin!

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Mon May 03, 2010 6:42 pm

When I was in Wal-Mart this weekend, my first reaction was to be disgusted with all the fat people who were in there. Then I felt bad because I don't know each person's individual story, just like I have a story. But we really have become too desensitized to fatness, and I think that our society is pushing this 6-meals a day nonesense as an excuse for fat people to keep eating all day. I'm sick of being told these metabolism myths that obviously aren't true if we are fatter than ever as a society. I don't know if I believe that people who say dieting doesn't work for them, are really honest with themselves about what they are eating. Maybe .01% actually have metabolism issues, not the 60% who are obese in our country.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Mon May 03, 2010 7:06 pm

I'm not okay with fat prejudice (or thin prejudice). Just for the record.

I don't want to open a can of worms, but reading that someone saw someone fat in Wal-Mart and was disgusted is pretty damn painful since it's going to be YEARS before my body is going to be seen as acceptable. (No-S works, but it is SLLLOOOWWWW).

It makes me not want to leave the house until I[m skinny enough to be seen as human.

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Mon May 03, 2010 7:23 pm

That's exactly the problem - we are completely UNprejudiced as a society against fat people, so much so that nobody wants to confront anyone that what they are doing is unhealthy. But how do you tell someone that what they are doing is unhealthy, without hurting their feelings? You can't. Either way it's a losing situation. It's biologically instinctive to be "disgusted" against that body type - it's a warning sign that you don't want to become that way yourself because you won't survive if you do.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Mon May 03, 2010 7:34 pm

May you always be treated the way you treat other people.

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Mon May 03, 2010 7:50 pm

Knowing in your mind that being fat is unhealthy, and not wanting to be unhealthy, is not prejudice against people.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Mon May 03, 2010 8:11 pm

It is incredible to me that this No S Weight-Loss forum
which has such a history of kindness and acceptance
continues to express these
thinly disguised hateful, hurtful, and unkind insults against the obese.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Mon May 03, 2010 8:51 pm

But how do you tell someone that what they are doing is unhealthy, without hurting their feelings? You can't. Either way it's a losing situation. It's biologically instinctive to be "disgusted" against that body type - it's a warning sign that you don't want to become that way yourself because you won't survive if you do.

I reckon that the majority of those with weight issues realize that they are overweight. They don't need to be told. Moreover, a lot of folks with weight issues are probably quite knowledgeable about nutrition, diets, etc. They know that they need to eat less and move more. Putting it into practice is a more challenging -- and very personal -- matter.

I do think it is important to bear in mind that you don't really know the other person's story. For all you know, the person at Walmart may be on a journey to good health and have already lost a bunch of weight. There was a brief period in my life when I was obese, edging on severely obese, and I remember going out for a walk, trying to get my exercise in, and being on the receiving end of some very nasty comments about my weight.

It was horrible.

TunaFishKid · Post by **TunaFishKid** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:54 pm

RJLupin wrote: I think part of the problem is that we HAVE normalized bad eating behavior.

This makes it sound like all overweight people are sinful gluttons. It's not "bad eating behavior" that's the problem. It's bad food.

http://www.foodincmovie.com/

TunaFishKid · Post by **TunaFishKid** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:00 pm

BrightAngel wrote:
It is incredible to me that this No S Weight-Loss forum
which has such a history of kindness and acceptance
continues to express these
thinly disguised hateful, hurtful, and unkind insults against the obese.

You are quite right. There are very few people in this world (if any) who have said to themselves, "Damn! I'm gonna sit on my butt and eat myself sick and get as fat as possible!"

Fat prejudice is truly the last acceptable prejudice. I think a lot of thin people like to give themselves credit for something they didn't do ("He was born on the finish line and thinks he won the race"), and a lot of fat people have such ingrained self-hatred (from living in this fat-phobic society) that they accept the condemnation without question.

Too solid flesh · Post by **Too solid flesh** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:30 pm

TunaFishKid wrote:Fat prejudice is truly the last acceptable prejudice.

Certainly in the UK obesity is stigmatised, and increasingly so as the government pushes health issues.

oliviamanda · Post by **oliviamanda** » Tue May 04, 2010 3:55 pm

Weight stigma is definitely an issue. A "freak" could surely be a person that is too thin.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Tue May 04, 2010 4:39 pm

TunaFishKid wrote:
RJLupin wrote: I think part of the problem is that we HAVE normalized bad eating behavior.
This makes it sound like all overweight people are sinful gluttons. It's not "bad eating behavior" that's the problem. It's bad food.

http://www.foodincmovie.com/

I think it's both. Actually, it's three things: eating too much poor quality food too often.

oliviamanda · Post by **oliviamanda** » Tue May 04, 2010 5:58 pm

I agree! As we all know this weight loss thing can be really tough at times. I pat myself on the back for my willpower to not eat that way. I know what is going to happen if I eat too much poor quality food too often and I am fighting against it. It's not okay with me to harm my body eating the processed junk that's all too afordable and readily available.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Tue May 04, 2010 9:51 pm

wosnes wrote:
TunaFishKid wrote:
RJLupin wrote: I think part of the problem is that we HAVE normalized bad eating behavior.
This makes it sound like all overweight people are sinful gluttons. It's not "bad eating behavior" that's the problem. It's bad food.

http://www.foodincmovie.com/
I think it's both. Actually, it's three things: eating too much poor quality food too often.

I agree, I don't think there's any "bad" food, just bad eating habits. One piece of cake isn't a problem, unless you eat it every day. One normal serving size of pasta doesn't make one gain weight, but eating a HUGE serving can. Nobody gains weight from one cookie, but when they eat the whole box, well....you get the idea. Is the problem the cookie, the so-called "bad" food? Or is it the person eating it, who doesn't know when to say "enough" and keeps on gobbling? Also, if there are "bad" foods there have to be "good" foods, right? Magic foods we can eat unlimited amounts of? That's the premise of a lot of diets, but we've all seen how well that works out.

No, obesity is caused by bad eating behavior: people eat too much, too often. Whether they're eating cookies or rice cakes or "healthy" foods, they're still gorging and gobbling their way up the scale. I have never met a fat person, myself included, who didn't eat too much. In some cases, WAY too much. I watched that show about the Brookhaven obesity clinic. Some people in there were so fat they couldn't walk and were almost dead, and yet they still ordered take-out and got people to sneak in candy and snacks. Was "bad" food to blame, or what is their own pathological behavior?

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Tue May 04, 2010 9:56 pm

leafy_greens wrote:Knowing in your mind that being fat is unhealthy, and not wanting to be unhealthy, is not prejudice against people.

Exactly! We don't say to an alcoholic, "Oh, you poor thing! Clearly your problems are in no way your fault! I won't ever judge you for drinking too much, or suggest you should quit for your health. That would be prejudiced!" Of course you don't! You encourage them to seek help and stop drinking. It's not prejudiced to disapprove of bad habits, like additions to food or alcohol. Being fat isn't some cosmetic thing that only hateful people find unappealing, it's a terrible risk factor for many diseases. I struggle with my weight myself obviously, why else would I be here? I know being fat is bad for me, and just like I wouldn't sit by and watch a friend drink themselves to death, I wouldn't sit by and watch them eat themselves to death, either; and I hope they would do the same for me.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Tue May 04, 2010 11:55 pm

I think there's plenty of bad food -- but cake isn't necessarily one of them. I don't remember where I read it, but there are plenty of obese people who are malnourished because they're eating convenience and fast foods day in and day out. Those things eaten occasionally aren't a problem. But day in and day out, they're a major problem. The problem with those foods is that they're devoid of nutrients.

I agree that you can eat wholesome food and gain weight because you're eating too much. I think many of the obese people now are eating more because they aren't eating nutrient dense foods. They eat more because they aren't getting much nourishment from the food they eat. It's not just a matter of filling the belly, you've got to nourish the body as well.

When I observe obese people eating out or see their carts at the grocery, I don't see them eating or buying much wholesome food.

vmelo · Post by **vmelo** » Wed May 05, 2010 1:46 am

I understand the concept of community shame, and in some cases, I believe stigmatizing a behavior works. However, I'm not so sure it would work with losing weight because that behavior is already stigmatized to a certain degree in our society (as manifested by some comments on this thread; I'm not judging or being self-righteous---just pointing out a fact). I know that if I am ashamed of how I look, I don't even want to leave the house. When that happens, it only encourages me to sit home, feel sorry for myself, and graze all day. It's counterproductive.

In terms of science, losing weight may be a simple calculation of calories in/ calories out. However, I know for me, sadness and slight depression have affected my weight throughout the years, and I'll bet that I'm not alone. I think about a friend of mine who just kept gaining and gaining because she was in an unhappy marriage and was generally dissatisfied with her life. Her main source of pleasure and relaxation was food. She divorced and has made a life for herself, and she has lost weight. I think oftentimes obesity is a result of unhappiness with some aspect of life (not always, but often). I say that as a person who is 5 ft. 3 and weighs more than 170 lbs.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Wed May 05, 2010 1:10 pm

There have been a lot of offensive comments inside this Thread.
I've edited down my response.
Beating a dead horse here,

but I tried being tactful, and I tried being patient.
Now I say this Directly.

No individual member of any Community
...including NoS.....
has a right to Shame people for being too fat.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:15 pm

Um, we are adults here and, hopefully have the ability to have a dialogue & self-moderate without having to bother the site Founder, but there are Board guidelines for posting. It would be nice if folks could be civil. Thanks.

Please let's be careful not to insult one another. There's no reason we can't be civil when we disagree. This board has a pretty great track record in this regard and honestly I'd rather just take the board down than see that change.

So please, please, think twice before posting something aggressive.

And think twice more before taking offense.

That's almost guaranteed to just escalate things further.

Just don't respond to rude comments -- and let me know via email or private message. I'll step in to make sure it stops.

Please note that this isn't to discourage differences of opinion -- those are fine, they're great, actually. This board would be dull as earth without them. But there is no reason not to frame these differences in a polite and respectful way -- as almost everyone has, over tens of thousands of posts here and on the yahoo group that preceded it, since 2002.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am

wosnes wrote:I think there's plenty of bad food -- but cake isn't necessarily one of them. I don't remember where I read it, but there are plenty of obese people who are malnourished because they're eating convenience and fast foods day in and day out. Those things eaten occasionally aren't a problem. But day in and day out, they're a major problem. The problem with those foods is that they're devoid of nutrients.

I agree that you can eat wholesome food and gain weight because you're eating too much. I think many of the obese people now are eating more because they aren't eating nutrient dense foods. They eat more because they aren't getting much nourishment from the food they eat. It's not just a matter of filling the belly, you've got to nourish the body as well.

When I observe obese people eating out or see their carts at the grocery, I don't see them eating or buying much wholesome food.

I don't, either: I see carts full of candy, ice cream, and goodies. It might not be PC to say so, but at work (I work part time in a coffee shop) I always keep track of who buys what. When someone obese comes in, they almost always get something really huge to drink, covered in whipped cream, AND get a pastry to go along with it (and sometimes, 2 or 3 pastries.) That's probably at least 1000 calories right there, on stuff most people would consider "snacks" and not a real meal.

I was no different. I didn't get fat by eating healthy (and by healthy I mean real, quality food....not "diet" food or "non fat" garbage) foods in moderate quantities; I got fat because I pigged out on junk. Oh, there was always some excuse to make it ok ("I had a bad day! I don't feel well! No one loves me!") but you know what? Eating didn't make any of those problems better, it only made new problems.

I think the reason I am finally staying on track and losing weight is because I have stopped with the excuses. I made up my mind to stop being a "victim" and start taking control. Nobody was holding a gun to my head and making me eat the cookies, and having a bad day or whatever had nothing to do with eating a cake while watching TV. I think that made all the difference, and while I will probably always struggle with food addiction (because I used to binge a lot) I don't feel helpless any more, and I don't feel like I have no choice. I do have a choice, and if I eat the goodies and gain 20 pounds, I have no one to blame but me.

vmelo · Post by **vmelo** » Thu May 06, 2010 1:58 am

RJLupin wrote:It might not be PC to say so, but at work (I work part time in a coffee shop) I always keep track of who buys what. When someone obese comes in, they almost always get something really huge to drink, covered in whipped cream, AND get a pastry to go along with it (and sometimes, 2 or 3 pastries.) That's probably at least 1000 calories right there, on stuff most people would consider "snacks" and not a real meal. . .

I think the reason I am finally staying on track and losing weight is because I have stopped with the excuses. I made up my mind to stop being a "victim" and start taking control.

I applaud your success. I, too, dislike being PC, and I appreciate straight talk. I don't disagree with most of what you're saying---i.e., in most cases, people are overweight due to their own poor eating and exercise habits.

However, I do not believe shame is an effective technique to use in combating the problem. Nor do I think grocery-cart-watching or looking askance at how someone orders in a coffee shop (or other eating establishment) is productive or useful. The way I see it, unless that person is seeking advice or sympathy from me about his/her weight problem, it is none of my business to judge her based on how she looks, what food she orders, etc. If she orders three danishes and starts complaining to me about her thyroid problem being the cause of her weight gain, then, yes, I will probably think that she is deluding herself. Otherwise, I don't know that person's story or problems, so I'm not going to assume things about her.

RJLupin · Post by **RJLupin** » Thu May 06, 2010 3:13 am

vmelo wrote:
RJLupin wrote:It might not be PC to say so, but at work (I work part time in a coffee shop) I always keep track of who buys what. When someone obese comes in, they almost always get something really huge to drink, covered in whipped cream, AND get a pastry to go along with it (and sometimes, 2 or 3 pastries.) That's probably at least 1000 calories right there, on stuff most people would consider "snacks" and not a real meal. . .

I think the reason I am finally staying on track and losing weight is because I have stopped with the excuses. I made up my mind to stop being a "victim" and start taking control.
I applaud your success. I, too, dislike being PC, and I appreciate straight talk. I don't disagree with most of what you're saying---i.e., in most cases, people are overweight due to their own poor eating and exercise habits.

However, I do not believe shame is an effective technique to use in combating the problem. Nor do I think grocery-cart-watching or looking askance at how someone orders in a coffee shop (or other eating establishment) is productive or useful. The way I see it, unless that person is seeking advice or sympathy from me about his/her weight problem, it is none of my business to judge her based on how she looks, what food she orders, etc. If she orders three danishes and starts complaining to me about her thyroid problem being the cause of her weight gain, then, yes, I will probably think that she is deluding herself. Otherwise, I don't know that person's story or problems, so I'm not going to assume things about her.

Oh, I think you've got me all wrong: I would NEVER say anything to someone, unasked, about what they were eating. Never never never. Unless someone asks me how I am losing weight, I don't ever talk about diet. Lots of people have bad habits, and thought I don't really approve, everyone does have the right to eat/drink/etc themselves to death. If it were someone I cared about, or if somebody said something about their weight, THEN I would probably step in and encourage them to get help in overcoming their addiction to food. I definitely don't just walk up to people and comment on their eating. My comments on here are just general observations I've made about the obese people I've come in contact with, as well as my own weight struggles. I also wanted to make the point that we, as a society, need to move away from the "obesity is a disease you have no control over, and surgery is the only cure!" angle we seem to be taking now, and start treating it as a lifestyle and behavioral issue. Personal responsibility seems to have gone out the window.

harmony · Post by **harmony** » Thu May 06, 2010 7:50 am

After I realized that I was overweight and finally started dieting, I tended to peek at what slim people had in their carts at the grocery store, and I usually saw them buying the same stuff as everyone else, including the same bags of chips and 24 packs of soda. At first I did it in a way to validate the current way of eating I had taken on. I was hoping to see someone skinny who followed the same guidelines that I was trying to learn. Only once did I witness an elegant, slim older woman fill her basket up with fresh produce and pass on everything else. Usually I would catch my subjects stocking up on Pepsi and Totino's pizzas. Sometimes they would buy Diet Coke. haha.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Thu May 06, 2010 9:06 am

Just a little thought on shame and self-responsibility. I was talking to a colleague many years ago, Anglo-Dutch. We were discussing the greater freedom the Dutch enjoyed over issues such as drugs and sex when compared to the UK, and he told me a very instructive story:

He was in Holland, visiting friends, went out for a drink with another young man, sinking a few pints when his friend suddenly ducked under the table. When asked for an explanation, the friend said "Some neighbours just came in and I didn't want them to see me drunk"

The Dutch didn't need so many external rules as they had such strong internal ones, a combination of self-regulation and a sense of social disapproval - shame definitely played a part, supporting self-restraint.

It is unfair, however, to shame fat people without shaming all those who urge them on because they are making so much money out of them. The pushers are surely the biggest villains.

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Thu May 06, 2010 1:29 pm

Graham wrote:It is unfair, however, to shame fat people without shaming all those who urge them on because they are making so much money out of them. The pushers are surely the biggest villains.

I think that "Big Food" definitely deserves some shame!

Our culture likes to talk about "personal responsibility," which makes it seem as if being obese were a moral failure. I actually think it takes near-Herculean efforts NOT to be obese when our environment promotes bad food so heavily!

Yes, someone really paying attention and putting in serious effort (or building REALLY good habits that allow them to ignore a lot of surrounding food-cues) can lose/maintain. But it takes conscious effort, rather than being an easy "default."

So, everyone here deserves credit for taking positive action to combat the effects of an unsupportive environment!

vmelo · Post by **vmelo** » Fri May 07, 2010 12:56 am

harmony wrote:After I realized that I was overweight and finally started dieting, I tended to peek at what slim people had in their carts at the grocery store, and I usually saw them buying the same stuff as everyone else, including the same bags of chips and 24 packs of soda. At first I did it in a way to validate the current way of eating I had taken on. I was hoping to see someone skinny who followed the same guidelines that I was trying to learn. Only once did I witness an elegant, slim older woman fill her basket up with fresh produce and pass on everything else. Usually I would catch my subjects stocking up on Pepsi and Totino's pizzas. Sometimes they would buy Diet Coke. haha.

That's interesting. I guess I just don't tend to notice things like what's in someone's grocery cart. I will say that when I used to go to the gym, it was encouraging to me to see so many in-shape people there. Years ago, I just automatically had this "woe is me" attitude about exercising. I somehow assumed that thin folks didn't have to endure exercise. Obviously, that was a dumb assumption on my part; I mean, it's logical that those people stay in shape by making a concerted effort to exercise.

Post by **reinhard** » Fri May 07, 2010 7:57 pm

Hi All,

Interesting discussion!

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to pop in here -- just started a new job and it's been a little distracting.

I'm happy you all have been able to recover from some initial... tension.

Here's what I see as the difficulty:

Is there (generally speaking) some relationship between voluntary behavior and people's physical condition?

Sure -- if you believe in free will at all.

Does that mean that it's always simply a matter of choice?

Of course not. It's never simply a matter of choice. There are always other forces, external (society, superabundance) and internal (habit, biochemistry). And at some point, in some situations "choice" may have very little to do with it.

I believe BrightAngel that she and the vast majority of people who get gastric bypass tried their damnedest to do it another way. Sure there are spectacular exceptions that will get picked up by the shock shows. But they're rare -- that's why they make good TV.

I continue to believe that choice is important and powerful, both for me individually and for the lot of us (there wouldn't be much point to no-s if this weren't the case). And I have no doubt that a lot of bad choices are being made these days. But let's also be fair about the difficulties involved.

Thanks all for self-moderating and not forcing the guru-ex-machina to come thundering in from above!

Reinhard