I don't believe that No S works well with strength training

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pepper
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I don't believe that No S works well with strength training

Post by pepper » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:39 am

I just wanted to put this out there for any forum members that strength train or are looking to.

I haven't read the book in a while and it might be a good idea for me to read it before I write this but what the heck.

I've been learning about building muscle mass on different websites, especially bodybuilding.com. Now don't think I'm some huge powerlifter or anything. I prefer to be lean and have a swimmer body. But many of the guys on these websites eat tons and I don't think that 1 plate could fit all the food they eat. In addition, they eat several meals a day but in smaller portions. I did this once and gained massive weight. Thing is, they have pre-session and post-session meals, meaning they'll eat at the minimum of 4 meals. To build a lot of muscle mass you have to eat more to allow that kind of growth. These are the primary reasons I think it is an inappropriate diet.

I on the other hand am looking to build musclemass and drop body fat% and weight, as a byproduct. This kind of thing is perfect for monitoring my caloric intake.
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning...

paprad
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Post by paprad » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:23 am

Pepper, in the thread on fasting I had posted some links to intermittent fasting - you might like to check them out. Also look at www.leangains.com where he shows how eating fewer meals is used in conjunction with strength training.
getting there

paulawylma
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Strength training

Post by paulawylma » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:57 am

No s may not be the best for a body builder. But if you are talking about the standard bodybuilders diet as in Body-for-life, etc ( there are many sources) then No S will work as long as you eat 5 or 6 small meals a day instead of 3 regular plate meals. No S doesn't actually dictate how many meals- though it was originally developed with 3 meals in mind. Another problem is that No S exempts all S days where BFL and other body building diet (can't remember the actual names of the others) have only one free day a week. They aren't actually eating as much as it looks since competitors have to lose bodyfat so their muscles will be visible. If you are interested check out the www.bodyforlife.com site. It's free and you can win lots of money and have a new career as a fitness model! Unfortunately you also have to workout seriously with weights which is why I'm on this forum and not that one! :-). No S is sustainable. Many other diets are not.

BTW, I looked at the site you referenced. Diet information wasn't as easy to find, but I did find one 12 week pre-contest prep article that listed meals eaten. That person ate 5 times a day with 2 of the meals being some sort of supplement with rice cakes and the other 3 meals following I referred to above as the standard bodybuilding diet: a serving of Protein, a serving of carbs and a serving of non-starchy veggies. Since these diets are low fat, No S is far less restrictive, but if you have a particular body building goal in mind, then No S may not be right for you.

BTW, have you looked at the shovelglove forum. You can build muscle with shovelglove and still follow NO S.
Last edited by paulawylma on Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:58 pm

See Brad Pilon on bodybuilding and intermittent fasting. Are you looking to compete or just build some muscle to counteract natural atrophy? Remember that this is about sustainability, too. I find the freedom from having to worry about having the right snacks so worth it. But I'm not cut, either. I wouldn't turn it down, but I won't live my life around getting there, either.

I turned to bodybuilding advice for years not because I wanted to be that low of bodyfat but because I thought they were the fat loss experts. I still think they are, but they are not the sustainability experts. My real issue is bingeing, though, and No S has done more to decrease that than 7 years of 5 meals a day. Bodybuilders are famous for bingeing after competing, and many never achieve the fat loss they desire, just as most athletes never make it to the professional leagues. The ones who actually make it seem to be a different breed to me. Lot of casualties along the way. Just saying.

Although No S technically isn't only 3 meals a day, it is the go-to regime for longevity's sake. Eating several times a day reinforces eating that often and can easily lead to too many calories a day. It also adds complexity that may not be sustainable for most people. Competitive bodybuilders are not most people.

You may be right that No S is not appropriate for bodybuilding. It certainly wasn't the intention.

Good luck figuring out whether you want to bodybuild, find a sustainable way to get and stay slimmer, or do both. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't the same thing, either.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

OT
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Post by OT » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:41 pm

oolala is right-check out Brad Pilon's blog. If you can be as buff as he is whilst going without food for 24 hrs on a regular basis then I am sure you can build a lot of muscle on 3 meals a day! But yes,it depends on how much muscle you want to build. If you want to build 100 pounds of muscle and have 40 inch biceps and do bodybuilding contests and you think you need 5000 calories a day to support this quest then yes, 5-6 meals a day may well be the best approach.And you can perfectly well do it within the boundaries of No S-you can have as many meals as you want as long as they are planned,not random.

pepper
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Post by pepper » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:50 am

I hope you all forgive me. I've been researching extensively and have found that while so many of these BB's suggest eating 5-6 times a day, it's not necessary; cals in vs cals out is the main thing. I've learned things that have invalidated my post.

Thanks for the link to the leangains website, he has some great stuff on there. I don't believe, however, that intermittent fasting is for me; I'm just going to eat 3meals/day and manage the proper macros.

I should have made it clear that I'm not a body builder myself, or am I seeking to build exorbitant amounts of muscle. I am just a humble swimmer trying to build an appropriate body and build muscle mass but remain compact. I do troll the bodybuilding.com forums often, just to learn to to maximize my time but I believe the best advice is, as stated earlier, "cals in vs cals out" and "drink loads of water".

One thing I do worry about though is, if the law of thermodynamics holds true - which of course it does - does that mean a person can scarf down food that is completely 'dirty' and be fine if he/she expends it? I've read threads on clean and dirty foods and debates on whether or not empty carbs or complex carbs are any different in the end. Maybe y'all can be of help - you've done a great job so far.
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning...

oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:13 am

It depends on what you mean by being "fine." Are there people who year after year eat junk and are thin? Yes. Can some people eat terrible diets and stay healthy decade after decade? Yes. Are many people capable of doing this? Probably not. The issue is not the calorie amounts but what constitutes satiety. I know one thing about myself; I like to chew. So juice diets and smoothies wouldn't work for me. And many "dirty" foods, I'm guessing, consist of dense calories that are probably processed. I just don't find equal calories of, say, pretzels and whole cooked rye or rice equally satisfying. I can just keep going and going with the pretzels, eating way more than I would be able to if it were in its whole form. But a cup of cooked grain is a lot. It's the water as part of the food plus the fiber that adds to feeling satisfied. Proteins add to it, too.

I bought a little ice cream sundae cup by Ben and Jerry's this weekend. It was 350 calories. It was tiny! When I imagined how much whole food I could eat for that many calories, it made me really glad I eat those things only on weekends.

Probably better not to emulate the exceptions.

A genetically endowed athlete can perform even on a lousy diet. But all things being equal, a better-fueled body it likely to perform better. And feel better.

BTW, I remember reading about a woman champion long distance swimmer. She trained for long hours and had 30% body fat. I've also read that swimmers will not lose the same amount of fat with the same cardio output. I don't know how, but they tend to keep more fat on. Maybe for insulation? But I'm just a reader. You are the swimmer!
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

pepper
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Post by pepper » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:35 pm

it is the adaptation for swimming. I'm sure you know fat floats! But in regards to the distance swimmer, that's unusually high. Most swimmers have anywhere inbetween 7%-15%. I sit at 14 myself but I want it around 9.

Do you know any other ways to ensure intake of necessary nutrients and vitamins without weighing food?
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning...

OT
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Post by OT » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:33 pm

Pepper,

Don't take this the wrong way,but I really think that you are worrying too much about this nutrition thing.There are thousands of trace vitamins and minerals in existence and I am sure for each one of those there is some study or bit of research to show that the addition of that particular vitamin/mineral to one's diet can increase/decrease risk of cancer,speed up/slow down your metabolism,boost/reduce energy levels,suppress/increase appetite etc etc. You can't spend your life worrying about these things,you will go mad!

My advice is to just use your common sense!Eat a well balanced diet,eat plenty of fruit and vegetables,don't eliminate any food groups and enjoy some variety in your diet,don't eat the same thing every day-I am no nutritionist but common sense tells me that this is the best way to ensure you get all the nutrients you need.

As for junk food-I am not generally a fan of it,I prefer good food, but I am sure the odd cheeseburger or pizza now and again won't have any significant detrimental effect on your health and athletic ability!

TunaFishKid
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Post by TunaFishKid » Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:10 pm

Have you seen Reinhard's before-and-afters? He lost body fat and gained muscle, with only No S and shovelglove. I don't know offhand where the link is, but maybe somebody else does. If I find it later I'll post it.
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reinhard
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Post by reinhard » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:02 pm

Hi Pepper,

It's certainly possible that you won't be able to become Mr. Universe on vanilla no-s, but I'm pretty happy with how strong I've gotten doing shovelglove and no-s. It sound's like you have no ambitions to become Mr. Universe, so I wouldn't worry about it.

One of my favorite computer science quotations that is very relevant to exercise and self-improvement in general:

"Premature optimization is the root of all evil."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth

Diddling with meal timing and composition to promote optimal muscle growth very clearly seems to me to fall into this category, for most people. It's fine if it doesn't come at the cost of habit, but from the devil, so to speak, if it does.

Reinhard

JohnSnow
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Post by JohnSnow » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:29 pm

TunaFishKid wrote:Have you seen Reinhard's before-and-afters? He lost body fat and gained muscle, with only No S and shovelglove. I don't know offhand where the link is, but maybe somebody else does. If I find it later I'll post it.
Was browsing by here and thought I'd help. Your wish is my command...

http://nosdiet.com/beforeafter.html

storm fox
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Oh.

Post by storm fox » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:01 am

I'd steer clear of bodybuilding, unless you really love it for its own sake. I can scarcely recommend any athletic training book more than Infinite Intensity by Ross Enamait. YRG fitness system supposedly goes well with swimming, and there are people who have gotten the kind of physique you're after doing YRG. I also really dig kettlebells. Crossfit is good in a lot of ways, but is far too dogmatic and unconditionally hard-driving for me. If you want No S and muscle gain, take a protein drink and maybe a piece of fruit in between meals, but be careful of chasing muscle for its own sake. As has been said before, "It's not the meat, it's the motion!"

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bluebunny27
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Post by bluebunny27 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:44 am

Yeah, Reinhard is a stud now, you don't want to mess with that guy, heh. Muscular arms !! ;-)

Oh, I saw a reality tv video on a young man from .... Norway ? Maybe Denmark ... Yeah, that was 2-3 months ago but I think he was from Denmark. He was videotaping himself. He decided he would inject himself with steroids and film everything, training, injections, eating, meeting with trainers and doctors, etc. It was a really interesting video. 60-70 minutes.

Anyway it worked well, he looked like a monster, 100% muscular, 6'1", 250 pounds with less than 5% body fat, training like crazy all the time with heavy weights too to make sure his muscles would grow more and more. He looked strong and muscular before the injections of course but those really made a big difference, night and day. He could recover from the training sessions a lot quicker while using them and also train a lot more too, with heavier weights.

He only did that for a couple of months if I recall. Before the injections a doctor tested him for all sorts of things and he was fine, perfect health, nothing to worry about. Later after the injections he was all messed up inside even if he looked super muscular on the outside of course. Liver problems beginning, sweating profusely, having trouble sleeping, bad temper, Kidneys in the process of shutting down, etc. So he got off the juice and lost all his new muscles, basically went back to where he was before the injections. End of story.

He was glad he had pictures taken just before getting off the juice though so he would have those for the memories. He didn't cause long term damages since he was on the steroids for a short period of time, so quitting them cold turkey cured his issues after a while ... it's not as if he was on those for years like many pro bodybuilders. (It's a bad idea to use those anyway, I would never do that, but some may be tempted when they see the quick results)

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

38 Years Old, 5'10" Tall
Nov. 1st. 2008 : 280 Pounds
Nov. 1st. 2009 : 190 Pounds
(1 Year : - 90 Pounds)

Current Weight : 193 Pounds

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