Hungry all the time

[Lolly]

Hi everyone. I've just started the No S diet having intended to for quite a while now. I really do think it is such an amazing, simple and life friendly way to lose and manage weight, but there’s one thing I’m really finding difficult, and that’s the fact that I'm feeling hungry for half the day! Meals only seem to satisfy me for about three hours if that, and then I’m hungry again.

I try and eat reasonable sized meals, not too small but not massive either and to include some more filling food like protein most of the time. I eat breakfast about 8 am and then by 11 I’m hungry again. Real stomach growling, gnarling hunger that makes it difficult to concentrate on anything other than my stomach and my next meal, until lunch, which I have about 1.30. Then from about 3, although not actually hungry, I start getting really strong food cravings usually for something sweet and then from about 4 I start to feel physically hungry again. I usually try and wait until about 7:30 to eat my last meal, but often give up and eat it as early as 5:30 and then I find myself hungry again a couple of hours before bed.

I’m enjoying my meals so much more now though, they do taste much better when I am really ready for them, but it’s difficult spending so much of the day just thinking(obsessing) about food and eating all the time. Will the hunger diminish with time or will I just get used to being hungry so that the feeling of hunger doesn’t bother me anymore?

[DaveMc]

Will the hunger diminish with time or will I just get used to being hungry so that the feeling of hunger doesn’t bother me anymore?

I found both: I started to feel less hungry, and the sensation bothered me less. Everyone's different, but I think many people here have experienced the same thing.

(EDIT: Oh, and the usual piece of advice to help get through this phase is to try drinking something when your hunger gets too much to handle. A small glass of milk will do a lot to make you feel less hungry, while not "feeling" like a snack since it's a drink rather than food. As has recently been discussed in another thread, constant drinking of milk or juice can be a problem of its own, but a moderate glass, occasionally, can be a big help when you're getting started, before your hunger problems subside.)

[marygrace]

At those times in between meals that you get so hungry, did you used to always have a snack? Before I started NoS, I had an afternoon snack every day without fail. When I started NoS, for a while I was very hungry at that snack time, I guess because my body just expected the food.

You may need to eat more at meals, and it might take a while to find that balance that satisfies you. However, if you're convinced your meals are already right where they need to be, I think you just need to give your body some time to adjust.

[wosnes]

Will the hunger diminish with time or will I just get used to being hungry so that the feeling of hunger doesn’t bother me anymore?

Between meal hunger will diminish. There's nothing wrong with being hungry. We've been taught to eat every time we feel hunger. That's very unusual and we can see where it got us -- overweight.

This is from Mark Bittman's book Food Matters:

There's a basic truth here: there are stages of hunger, and we -- Americans -- have become accustomed to feeding ourselves at the first sign. This is the equivalent of taking a nap every time you get tired, which hardly anyone does.

There are levels of hunger, and there is a very real difference between hunger and starvation. Starvation is a physical state; your body is deprived of essential nutrients or calories for a long period of time. Probably no one reading this book has ever been truly starving -- though we all think we know what starving feels like.

Hunger is a hardwired early-warning system. At first, your brain says, "Think about eating something soon." In the later stages it says, "Eat as soon as you can; make eating a priority." At no point does your brain say, "Eat now or you will do permanent damage," though at times it may feel as if that is true. But "Eat when hungry" has become a habit. We get hungry. We eat. We get hungry again. We eat again. And so on.

I'm not saying, "Don't eat when you're hungry." I'm saying that if losing of maintaining weight is important to you, think twice before you eat from simple hunger, or from other reasons, like emotion. And when you do eat, choose a piece of fruit; a carrot; a handful of nuts. If you're still hungry, have more. And more. Eat a pint of blueberries, or cherry tomatoes; have a mango, a banana, and an apple. Have a lightly dressed salad. You would be hard-pressed to gain weight eating this way.

You can also embrace hunger, strange as that may sound, just as you might embrace the delicious anticipation of a nap, or sexual craving. Your hunger will, after all, be satisfied; why not wait an hour? (You're not dying, after all!) You might also stop eating before you're full (three-quarters full is probably about right). And if you eat slowly, taking your time, you'll give the food time to reach your stomach and give you a sense of satisfaction before you have seconds or thirds.

Another thing to consider is not only how much you eat, but what. I'm not talking making sure there's protein and fat (it leads to satisfaction), but making sure that the food you eat is real food. All of the fat-reduced, carb-reduced, calorie-reduced (and yes, pleasure-reduced) foods lead us to be hungry more often. They don't satisfy physically or mentally/emotionally. Eating real food also makes it possible to eat less and still be satisfied and not hungry between meals.

[Starla]

I had the same problem when I started No S - hunger so intense it caused headaches. What helped me was adding some fat to my breakfast in the form of peanut butter.

You may have to experiment with what you're eating and how much you're eating. I now expect to be hungry before meals - after all, hunger is what used to tell us it was time to eat. But I would not be able to last long-term with the kind of hunger I was originally experiencing and which you describe.

[Lolly]

Thank you all for the replies You've given me a lot to think about and some really good ideas about where I might be going wrong.

I'm glad to hear things tend to get easier Dave, The drink sounds like a good idea. I don't like milk but I could try some vegetable juice as it’s quite filling but not as high calorie as fruit juice and try and limit it to only when I am very hungry.

At those times in between meals that you get so hungry, did you used to always have a snack?

Yes. If I was ever hungry in between meals I would eat something, often something like a piece of toast or an instant soup and sometimes a larger snack/small meal, but always something. I think I was snacking about three times a day, in between meals and late at night so not snacking is a big adjustment for my body. I don't think I was aware of how much I actually used to snack until I stopped.

There's nothing wrong with being hungry. We've been taught to eat every time we feel hunger.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I am so used to eating as soon as I feel hungry; I suppose it’s only natural that I’m finding it difficult now I'm not. In the past I tried to listen to my body and eat when I was hungry and stop when I was full. Although I used to eat as soon as I felt hungry I was not so good at realising when I was full.

Starla, I'm glad you managed to find a solution to the intense hunger. I think not enough fat is probably where I am going wrong too. I'm guilty of eating low fat meals and cooking without fat, (a habit from my last failed diet) and maybe my low fat meals look big enough but are actually too low calorie for someone only eating three times a day. I'll try peanut butter with breakfast; I love peanut butter and have spent too long avoiding it.

All of the fat-reduced, carb-reduced, calorie-reduced (and yes, pleasure-reduced) foods lead us to be hungry more often. They don't satisfy physically or mentally/emotionally.

Yes, I need to trust myself to eat tastier meals that contain more fat. It’s so true about 'diet' meals not being as satisfying. Even if they fill me up at the time there’s always a sense of something lacking. I've been blaming my love of mayonnaise and cheese etc. for my weight gain, but looking back at how often I used to snack I can see that is the real culprit.

[kccc]

I had the "snack habit" too, and almost had to "wean" myself, like you'd wean a baby. (If you haven't done that, you drop the least-essential feeding time, wait until that's comfortable, then progress to another...)

The things that helped most were eating really satisfying meals, as others have advised, and listening to the "Strictness" podcast - which remains one of my favorites. (If you haven't found the podcasts, they're quite good. And it's fun to actually hear Reinhardt.)

[Nicest of the Damned]

I try and eat reasonable sized meals, not too small but not massive either and to include some more filling food like protein most of the time. I eat breakfast about 8 am and then by 11 I’m hungry again. Real stomach growling, gnarling hunger that makes it difficult to concentrate on anything other than my stomach and my next meal, until lunch, which I have about 1.30. Then from about 3, although not actually hungry, I start getting really strong food cravings usually for something sweet and then from about 4 I start to feel physically hungry again. I usually try and wait until about 7:30 to eat my last meal, but often give up and eat it as early as 5:30 and then I find myself hungry again a couple of hours before bed.

I had this, too. My husband gets home late, though, and an early dinner isn't an option, so I never really dealt with being hungry before bed. It is getting better, but seemingly at a pace normally associated with phenomena such as continental drift. Be patient. It does get better, though not as quickly as you would like it to (especially if, like me, you have trouble being patient).

I started No S in June, started keeping a Habit Cal in August. I still get hungry between meals, especially between lunch and dinner, but it's not nearly as bad as it used to be.

If you feel hungry between meals, drink a glass of water. Sometimes that's enough to make the hunger go away. Sometimes it's thirst or boredom masquerading as hunger, as they are wont to do. The water would obviously help with thirst, and the break in routine to get up and get the water might help if the problem is really boredom. Water can't possibly cause a problem with calories (the way milk or juice could), though it might mean you have to go to the bathroom more often.

A technique that I picked up from a book on ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) that might help is to mentally step back from the craving. When you're craving food, say to yourself (or even aloud, if you're alone), "I notice that my mind is having a craving for whatever-it-is". Note that the craving is there, but don't try to get rid of it. It will go away on its own, eventually.

[Lolly]

KCCC, I’ve tried to stop snacking straight away. It probably would have been a good idea to stop gradually but as I’ve already started, I’m going to persevere with getting straight into proper No S and hope it gets easier. Today I’ve started trying to eat more satisfying meals as people have suggested and have started adding some fat to my meals. Thanks for the podcast recommendation. I’ve not listened to any of them yet. I’ll go and check that “Strictness†podcast out now.

Nicest of the Damned, I will try drinking water if I get hungry between meals. I was trying to think about what I actually drank over the course of a day and I’ve realised that it tends to be all or mainly coffee with the odd glass of wine in the evening. How did I develop such an extreme coffee habit, without even realising! . That’s really bad, so I imagine there is a really good chance at least some of my hunger is actually thirst. I’ll definitely try the craving technique when I inevitably get chocolate cravings this afternoon.

Thank you both for your advice

[Nicest of the Damned]

Nicest of the Damned, I will try drinking water if I get hungry between meals. I was trying to think about what I actually drank over the course of a day and I’ve realised that it tends to be all or mainly coffee with the odd glass of wine in the evening. How did I develop such an extreme coffee habit, without even realising! . That’s really bad, so I imagine there is a really good chance at least some of my hunger is actually thirst.

Don't try to fix all your bad habits at once. That doesn't work. Your brain has a limited amount of willpower. If you spread it too thin by trying to tackle too many bad habits at a time, you won't accomplish anything, and you'll just feel bad. Try fixing between one and three bad habits per month. Right now, you're trying to get No S down, which is your full quota of three habits. Get that to the point where you're only having a few "red" days per month, then work on other habits. You're better off with 4 really bad health habits than you are with 5, after all.

I've found my success at No S to be incredibly motivating for working on other habits. Sort of an "I could do that, I can do this" feeling. I also got a really good tip on this board for reducing the salt in my diet, which is something I should have done a long time ago. But I didn't start trying to work on salt until earlier this month, a while after I started No S. I don't think it would have worked nearly as well if I had tried earlier.

Unfortunately, sometimes it's too motivating. You end up thinking, "I did No S, I can do all these other things too". But working on lots of bad habits at once doesn't work. You do these habits because you enjoy them, or because they comfort you. You'll feel like you're being deprived of everything you enjoy or are comforted by. That's no way to live, and most people can't do it.

It's better to get some practice at succeeding, and, yes, failing before you try to work on other habits. Have your first "red" day, mark it, and get back into No S the next day. Let yourself see that the sky doesn't fall because you failed. See that you can get back on the horse and try again. Habits aren't like virginity- you slip once, and it's gone forever. You didn't learn your bad habits by always doing bad things, you learned them by sometimes doing bad things. You can learn good habits the same way.

it’s difficult spending so much of the day just thinking(obsessing) about food and eating all the time. Will the hunger diminish with time or will I just get used to being hungry so that the feeling of hunger doesn’t bother me anymore?

I can tell you, No S does get easier with time, at least for most people. I started this June. I didn't really have a problem with snacks or sweets, as I tackled those problems by not having snack foods or sweets in the house. My problem was seconds. And it sucked to stop eating before I felt full. I resented the hell out of having to do it. I knew that, if I ate until I felt full, I would feel unpleasantly stuffed a while after the meal, but I wanted to eat until I felt full anyway. It made me cranky to have to stop eating before I wanted to.

I would get hungry between meals, too, especially between lunch and dinner. I get hungry less often and less intensely between meals now than I did when I started No S. It still does happen, but less often and not as bad.

Another technique to try for cravings is good old fashioned distraction. Just like how, when a baby reaches for something s/he shouldn't have, you use something else to distract him/her from it. Find something to do that doesn't involve eating.

Something else that might help with cravings is to know that habit and time of day is one thing that triggers hunger. If you're hungry or craving something, it doesn't necessarily mean you need to eat (unless you have a real medical condition like diabetes that limits how long you can go between meals. Self-diagnosed "medical conditions" don't count, unless you have an MD and a license to practice medicine). It might just be that you're used to eating around that time. Different cultures have different numbers of meals per day, at different spacings. People in all cultures are hungry at meal times, whenever those are, because that's what they're used to. People move from one culture to another, and get used to a different pattern of meal times. Just like you can move into a different time zone, and get used to eating on that time zone's schedule instead of the schedule of the time zone you came from.

For example, Italians eat dinner very late, by American standards. They seem to eat lunch around 1 or 2pm, so they have a long gap between lunch and dinner. I went to Italy, and some restaurants didn't open for dinner until 9pm. My husband and I were very hungry by then. We were some of the first people in the restaurant, and I felt like I used to when I would eat dinner in a restaurant with my grandparents at 4pm. If the Italians can go that long between meals, so can you, once you get used to it (again, assuming no medical problems).

[Lolly]

Yes, there’s no point trying to fix everything when I haven’t even managed to get the basic No S diet right yet. Yesterday was an S day, it was my daughters 4th birthday and I pigged out a bit, well ... a lot. Today, Saturday is also an S – day and I’ve been eating all day. I know you are supposed to get the hang of N days first, but I might try and limit myself to one S, as I’m feeling bloated and gluttonous right now.

No S appeals not just as a way to lose the weight, but as a strategy for eating that I can make habit and then get on with living my life. I hate obsessing about food and being unhappy about my weight. The problem with most diets is they make me focus more on food, which makes me more likely to overeat, as unfortunately I’m quite an emotional eater. I want to get to a stage where I only really think about food at mealtimes, when I can enjoy nice food without any guilt. At the moment though, I realise I have to work hard at establishing the habit and breaking some bad ones such as needing to eat as soon as I feel hungry and the ‘oh I’ve ruined my diet, I may as well eat the contents of my fridge’ one. I think because No S makes so much sense to me and feels so right, I expected it to be easier to implement. I underestimated the strength of all my bad habits, that after all, I have spent years developing. However I have a really good feeling about No S and think that if I keep working at it, I will eventually get the hang of it.

[kccc]

Lolly, I didn't mean to suggest that you needed to follow the same pattern that I did - I just wanted to acknowledge that breaking a habit IS hard, and you are not the only person to find it challenging!

However, the cool thing about No-S is that it's hardest at the beginning, and then gets easier. Isn't that wonderful? Just the opposite of other diets. Once you re-train your habits, they work FOR you with as much power as they used to work against you!

So hang in there!

PS - On the "icky" S-days... those are a learning experience too. When you start contrasting over-the-top eating to what you learn to think of as "normal," the appeal gradually diminishes. Over time, you learn to have treats you enjoy... and stop. But that comes in time... start with the N days, and let the S days take care of themselves.

Best wishes!

[Lolly]

Thank you I'm sure i'll get the hang of it eventually.

[Nicest of the Damned]

Yes, there’s no point trying to fix everything when I haven’t even managed to get the basic No S diet right yet.

Trying to fix everything, no. Trying to fix something, yes. Bad habits are best tackled one at a time. They gang up on you, otherwise.

I've added a few rules to my S days, but I'm trying to keep away from anything that might make me feel deprived:

No eating directly from the package, unless it is a single-serving package. The food has to be put on a plate or in a bowl before you can eat it.

The package must be closed up and put away before you can start eating.

No eating in any position other than sitting. There are no chairs in our kitchen, so this implies no eating in the kitchen.

No hanging around the kitchen, except when preparing meals, eating meals, or cleaning up after meals. You can go in there to get a snack or a drink, but you can't hang out there.

No keeping food (or beverages with significant calories) outside the kitchen. You can take a single-serving plate or bowl of food outside the kitchen to eat, but you can't do things like keep a candy dish in the living room.

No eating snacks or sweets to "finish it up". Only eat snacks or sweets because you want them. "Finishing things up" is not a virtue, when it comes to snacks or sweets.

Meals are served buffet-style, with the food in the kitchen rather than in serving dishes on the table. If you want seconds, you have to get up and go into the kitchen to get them. This also means you can serve the food direct from the pots, and don't have extra serving dishes to wash.

No eating directly from the pots in the kitchen. You can taste, with a teaspoon, but you have to use a clean teaspoon each time (and definitely not your fingers, ick). If you know what it tastes like, it's not tasting, and not allowed. No eating while putting up leftovers after a meal. You are not a garbage disposal, nor are you the family pig that gets fed leftovers to get rid of them.

There are no direct rules here about what I can or can't eat on S days, or how much I can eat, but these are rules designed to discourage eating too much. They make it less likely that I'll eat a whole bag of chips, if I can't eat from the bag or keep the bag around, without totally depriving me of chips.

[Nicest of the Damned]

I want to get to a stage where I only really think about food at mealtimes

I'm not there yet. I wish I were, but I'm not.

I think because No S makes so much sense to me and feels so right, I expected it to be easier to implement. I underestimated the strength of all my bad habits, that after all, I have spent years developing. However I have a really good feeling about No S and think that if I keep working at it, I will eventually get the hang of it.

Don't beat yourself up because it's not easy, or worry that it's not easy for you because there's something wrong with you. It's not a matter of whether it's easy or not, it's a matter of whether you can do it.

I lucked out, and learned this years before starting No S. I was a physics major in college. Physics majors tell stories of people who are so brilliant, they manage to grasp the material you learn as a physics major without having to go to class or do the homework. I worried that, since I clearly wasn't one of those brilliant people, maybe I wasn't good enough to be a physics major. I went to class and did my homework, and I ended up with a physics degree (with honors, to boot). It was far from easy, but I did it.

[Lolly]

Today (so far anyway) has been a much better N day. I took on board some of the advice people have given me and added some more fat to my meals, and when I got very hungry between meals I had a small glass of tomato juice which really helped to take the edge of my hunger. I’ve noticed another thing to work on is slowing down when I’m eating. Because I’m not used to eating when I am this hungry, I’m finding I’m wolfing my meals down.

Nicest of the Damned, Having some personal rules to stop S days getting out of control is a really good idea. The reason I thought about only having one S a day is that I want to stop picking at food all day and keep more to the three meals a day habit with occasional extras. Thinking about it though, It’s probably not a good idea to make S days too restrictive.

Some initial thoughts on S day rules I could have are:

Still eat three proper meals a day (but with sweet things and additional snacks if I want) as I want to keep up the eating proper meals habit, and not get to the weekend and just end up picking at food and snacking all day instead.

I really like your rule about only eating sitting down. I’ll also try to do this as it will cut out a lot of the picking at food that I often find myself doing. If I want some chocolate or biscuits or something, I’ll put them on a plate and sit down and enjoy them properly by making sure I really savour them.

[Nicest of the Damned]

I really like your rule about only eating sitting down. I’ll also try to do this as it will cut out a lot of the picking at food that I often find myself doing. If I want some chocolate or biscuits or something, I’ll put them on a plate and sit down and enjoy them properly by making sure I really savour them.

I did that this weekend. I got some Hershey Miniatures, put them on a plate, and sat at the table to eat them. It's easier to say "I'm going to eat this many of them and no more" when you do that than it is if you eat them straight from the bag, standing up in the kitchen.

[kccc]

picking at food all day and keep more to the three meals a day habit with occasional extras. Thinking about it though, It’s probably not a good idea to make S days too restrictive.

When I make S-day rules, I will only make "positive rules" about what I can have (I WILL drink my water, eat x servings of veggies, etc.). The minute I put restrictions on WHAT I eat, I'm in trouble.

However, guidelines on HOW I eat (no sneaking, sit down, etc.) don't seem to trigger the same response as restrictions - and can be quite effective.

Still, I think it's better not to implement too many at once...

[Nicest of the Damned]

However, guidelines on HOW I eat (no sneaking, sit down, etc.) don't seem to trigger the same response as restrictions - and can be quite effective.

Still, I think it's better not to implement too many at once...

Probably is. A lot of these were things I pretty much did already, or mostly did. I ate meals buffet-style, didn't eat directly from kitchen pots, didn't keep food outside the kitchen, and didn't hang around the kitchen for years before I heard of No S. I rarely ate from packages or ate standing up before I started No S.

[Nicest of the Damned]

To paraphrase Lao-tsu, restricting S days is like cooking a small fish. You have to use a light touch, and it's easy to overdo it. If you restrict too much, you'll end up unable to stick to the diet.

[Lolly]

I’ve been away this weekend, and so there have been far too many temptations for me to have been too restrictive. I did make sure I sat down to eat everything and I put all my snacks on plates, which really helped me not go too mad. I actually found myself refusing food a few times, which in the past I would have probably eaten. Knowing that I was able to eat whatever I wanted without guilt made it easier to say no, because I knew I could eat something as soon as I was really in the mood for it. S days are certainly starting to fall into place, its N days I’m still struggling with. Unfortunately, not being allowed to eat until the next meal seems to release my inner rebel

[Blithe Morning]

I've been on the road a lot the last few weeks and as a result I haven't been exercising as much. I've noticed that my hunger has increased GREATLY. I've always had the occasional "tapeworm" day when it felt like I could never get full but this past week especially I've been hungry all the time.

I am attributing it to not working out as that is the only thing that has really changed. I will be traveling a lot this week and next week as well. I am going to make it a point to get in exercise, even if I have to dance around my hotel room.

Try bumping up your exercise a bit to see if that doesn't help.

[Lolly]

Hi Blithe Morning

Unfortunately exercise seems to make me more hungry rather than less. I joined the gym a year ago, hoping that I would naturally lose a bit of weight, but instead put on about 15 pounds. I still exercise quite a bit and always notice that on days I go to the gym I'm quite a bit hungrier than on days off.

[leafy_greens]

Hi Blithe Morning

Unfortunately exercise seems to make me more hungry rather than less. I joined the gym a year ago, hoping that I would naturally lose a bit of weight, but instead put on about 15 pounds. I still exercise quite a bit and always notice that on days I go to the gym I'm quite a bit hungrier than on days off.

In my experience, exercise does not lead to weight loss! Only controlling eating does.

[john]

Hello, it's me again and I continue to have exactly the same problem as Lolly with the gnawing , distracting hunger. I would be interested to know if anything has worked for Lolly.

Right now I am considering the Primal Blueprint (Paleolithic) Diet. It seems rather extreme so I am reconsidering the good old NoS diet for a possible fourth attempt. Any thoughts on the Paleolithic Diet which excludes any grain products and processed foods in general?

[BrightAngel]

I continue to have the gnawing, distracting hunger.

Right now I am considering the Primal Blueprint (Paleolithic) Diet. It seems rather extreme so I am reconsidering the good old NoS diet for a possible fourth attempt.
Any thoughts on the Paleolithic Diet which excludes any grain products and processed foods in general?

I am currently experimenting with whether or not eating low-carb
will help resolve cravings and hunger issues within a framework of No S.

I recently read Gary Taubes' new book
"Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It".
I think that the concepts in this book might be helpful to many No S members,
when combined together with the basic structure of the No S Diet.

This could especially be the case for those
for whom "vanilla" No S has resulted in little or no personal weight-loss,
or for those who find that "S days gone wild" don't subside after a reasonable trial period.
Or...as in your own case...difficulties with extended hunger after a reasonable adjustment time.

Below is a link with exerpts from it.
Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It - Google Books

[john]

Thank you. I read the excerpt from "Why We Get Fat..." A problem I see with this rather comprehensive change in diet is finding substitutes for the starches, grains and sugars that do not force me to become a chef or a pauper.

[BrightAngel]

Thank you. I read the excerpt from "Why We Get Fat..."
A problem I see with this rather comprehensive change in diet
is finding substitutes for the starches, grains and sugars
that do not force me to become a chef or a pauper.

As I understand the Concept,
the idea is that we won't want to eat as much,
not that we have to find a lot of substitutes.

Those who are extraordinarily sensitive to carbs,
eat primarily animal products, like meat, pork, chicken, fish, eggs,
hard and cream cheese, cream, butter, plain greek yogurt,
olive, peanut or coconut oil...
along with all leafy green vegetables and other low GI/GL carbs like brocoli, cauliflower, etc.

Those who are less carb-sensitive can also eat nuts and berries,
and higher GI/GL veggies.

The less carb sensitive people are, the more carbs they can add to their diet...
Whole grains appear to be only for those fortunate enough to be less sensitive.

The first thing almost every diet in existence limits is sugar and starch
However, this limitation might be a necessity, rather than an option,
for those who are highly "carb-sensitive"
in order to eliminate extreme hunger and ongoing cravings.

You might want to read my Check-in Thread.
It contains a quote from Taubes about this.
I have just begun personally experimenting with the concept.

[wosnes]

I've not read either of Taube's books, though I have read things written by him about the books (I can't find the one I read about the newest book). I think he's a prime example of how anything can be proved using research. To be fair, I think the same of many of those promoting high carb diets. It's not even so much that they're wrong, as it is that they're not entirely right.

However, like a stopped clock is right twice a day, I think there's something to at least part of what he says.

Taubes observed that we've gotten fatter since low-fat diets have become popular. I think what keeps us eating is the absence of fat. I don't think it matters if the fat comes from plant sources such as nuts, seeds, avocado, olives and so on, including the oils, or animal sources, including full-fat dairy products.

[BrightAngel]

I've not read either of Taube's books
I think he's a prime example of how anything can be proved using research.

Taubes' is a controversial science journalist, not a diet guru.
He is famous because of his extremely accurate and thorough reporting
of the past 100 years of research in this area.

As you say, you have not read either of Taubes' books,
but merely read "comments" about them.
I do not believe that an unbiased person such as yourself,
who has your experience and intelligence,
would have that opinion after actually reading his books.

[wosnes]

I've not read either of Taube's books
I think he's a prime example of how anything can be proved using research.

Taubes' is a controversial science journalist, not a diet guru.
He is famous because of his extremely accurate and thorough reporting
of the past 100 years of research in this area.

As you say, you have not read either of Taubes' books,
but merely read "comments" about them.
I do not believe that an unbiased person such as yourself,
who has your experience and intelligence,
would have that opinion after actually reading his books.

I haven't read comments -- I've read articles written by Gary Taubes. And I know that any science writer or researcher worth his/her salt can make anything sound credible.

[BrightAngel]

I haven't read comments -- I've read articles written by Gary Taubes.
And I know that any science writer or researcher worth his/her salt can make anything sound credible.

Taubes is not a Researcher, a science writer, or a scientist.
He is not involved in science or research, except as as an award winning journalist
who researches and writes about controversial science issues.

Except for the really famous article written by Taubes-"What if it's a Big Fat Lie",
Taubes is not well-known for his articles, but for his books.
These made him famous, and there have been many articles by others about him.
It sounds like you read articles by others about Taubes, who perhaps quoted him out-of-context.

The famous New York Times article, and the book Good Calories Bad Calories,
are his primary previous written contributions to the Health care area.
I understand that previous to that he wrote a controversial book on a Physics issue,
and then another on an Engineering issue.
He seems to be sensible, down-to-earth, and unbiased, which is unusual
in such a brilliant man. He has a Physics degree from Harvard,
an Engineering degree from Stanford, and a Journalism degree from Columbia.

Your prejudice against him surprises me.
I can only suppose it is due to your lack of accurate information,
especially since he is so greatly respected and admired
by many of the natural food diet gurus that you frequently quote here in the forum.
I suggest you keep an open mind until you've actually read his book.
If you were to invest $14 and actually read his latest one.
I would then be quite interested in your opinion.

[Sharpie]

I haven't read comments -- I've read articles written by Gary Taubes. And I know that any science writer or researcher worth his/her salt can make anything sound credible.

As a scientist and writer myself, I can vouch for this. I can make anything sound good/credible and give you a whole page of references to boot. Doesn't make it True (with a capital T) though. Fortunately, (or not) most people stick to writing what they believe to be true. Then you have to decide if you believe them yourself.

ETA: I've read nothing by Taubes, and have no idea about the quality of his work, I'm just referring to scientific writers and journalists in general. You don't get anywhere without a convincing style, even if you do have substance on your side. And if you've got that style, you can sometimes do more with less substance than others.

[BrightAngel]

As a scientist and writer myself, I can vouch for this.
I can make anything sound good/credible and give you a whole page of references to boot.
Doesn't make it True (with a capital T) though.
Fortunately, (or not) most people stick to writing what they believe to be true.
Then you have to decide if you believe them yourself.

As a retired Attorney with 25 years of trial experience,
I agree with your statement of how easy it is to make people believe your opinion.
This, however, isn't applicable or on point in the present case.

I believe that most poeple who have read Taubes books
would agree that this...although true... simply misses the entire point.

The point is not what Taube's personal opinions or conclusions are, BASED on his research of the area.
The point is the shocking, but true, state of the actual scientifc research in this area.

[john]

I hate to show my ignorance but what is this "check in thread" you suggested I read ??

[wosnes]

As a scientist and writer myself, I can vouch for this.
I can make anything sound good/credible and give you a whole page of references to boot.
Doesn't make it True (with a capital T) though.
Fortunately, (or not) most people stick to writing what they believe to be true.
Then you have to decide if you believe them yourself.

As a retired Attorney with 25 years of trial experience,
I agree with your statement of how easy it is to make people believe your opinion.
This, however, isn't applicable or on point in the present case.

I believe that most poeple who have read Taubes books
would agree that this...although true... simply misses the entire point.

The point is not what Taube's personal opinions or conclusions are, BASED on his research of the area.
The point is the shocking, but true, state of the actual scientifc research in this area.

The problem is that there's just as much compelling, actual scientific research that proves just the opposite. Then there's the issue that the actual scientific research can also be set up to prove what the researcher wants (or is paid) to prove -- whether it's right or wrong.

Supposedly anecdotal and epidemiological studies are the least reliable, but I often think that's not true.

[wosnes]

Thank you. I read the excerpt from "Why We Get Fat..." A problem I see with this rather comprehensive change in diet is finding substitutes for the starches, grains and sugars that do not force me to become a chef or a pauper.

Cost has been one of the biggest complaints about the high-protein, low-carb diets.

My own personal finances have taken a real downturn over the last year or so, and I can no longer afford to eat meat at even one meal daily, though I do have it a few times weekly.

Those who are extraordinarily sensitive to carbs,
eat primarily animal products, like meat, pork, chicken, fish, eggs,
hard and cream cheese, cream, butter, plain greek yogurt,
olive, peanut or coconut oil...
along with all leafy green vegetables and other low GI/GL carbs like brocoli, cauliflower, etc.

Those who are less carb-sensitive can also eat nuts and berries,
and higher GI/GL veggies.

The less carb sensitive people are, the more carbs they can add to their diet...
Whole grains appear to be only for those fortunate enough to be less sensitive.

One of the things that amazes me is that this seems to be true only in the US and other peoples who eat similar diets (often other English speaking countries). If you look at all the slim, healthy populations throughout the world, most of their diets are based on a combination of whole and refined grains and legumes with vegetables, fruits, meat and dairy added as available and affordable. (There are just a handful whose diets are meat based.) One could say that it's genetics, but when people from those places come to the US and start eating like Americans, they develop the same weight and health issues as Americans.

There was a study in which citizens from a city in Japan and people from that city who emigrated to the US were studied. Those in Japan eating their rice-based diet remained slim and healthy; those who came to the US and followed the standard American diet developed the weight and health issues as people born in the US.

My apologies for the font size towards the end of this post. I have absolutely no idea why it's occurring.

[john]

You know, on the topic of grain based diet of populations elsewhere in the world, I was also thinking about past populations. I believe the usual diet of a Roman Legionnaire was mostly grain(oats) with little meat or animal products? They were physically robust enough to conquer the known world including my own Germanic ancestors whose diet probably more resembled the Paleolithic(meat, eggs, dairy etc). Any corrections or thoughts on this or other historical perspectives??

[BrightAngel]

Both sides of the issues and questions stated above are discussed in detail
within the 500 pages of difficult reading in Taubes 2007 book, Good Calories Bad Calories.
which was written for the medical profession.
They are also discussed rather thoroughly in his new book,
Why We Get Fat and What to Do About It,
which is only 250 pages and was written for intelligent, average people.
If you are an open-minded person who is truly interested in both sides of those issues
you owe it to yourself to read Taubes' new book.
Without knowledge of the total picture, the validity of one's opinion is questionable.

To show you how important a book that I feel this is...
Although as part of my choice to treat dieting as a Hobby,
I read almost EVERYTHING published about dieting.
Some of these are good, some are not.
However, I have chosen to review only TWO books on Amazon.
One of them was the No S Diet, back in 2008.
The other is Taubes new book.

I have always been a calories-in-calories-out person,
and I am undecided about the unprocessed foods question...but beginning to lean toward natural foods.
However, my own experience,
put together with the details of the past 100 years of all dieting research,
has led me to my VERY RECENT experiment with low-carb eating.
At this point, I am totally undecided about its value to me.
After 6 months or so, I might have an opinion as to it's effectiveness,
now...I've just become open-minded enough to actually try to find out for myself.

John,
You are now participating in the No S Diet General Discussion thread
The Check-in Thread to which I am referring is my personal thread
which I began on April 14, 2008
and is located within the Daily Check In Thread.
Here is a link for your convenience.
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... 09&start=0

[wosnes]

You know, on the topic of grain based diet of populations elsewhere in the world, I was also thinking about past populations. I believe the usual diet of a Roman Legionnaire was mostly grain(oats) with little meat or animal products? They were physically robust enough to conquer the known world including my own Germanic ancestors whose diet probably more resembled the Paleolithic(meat, eggs, dairy etc). Any corrections or thoughts on this or other historical perspectives??

John, I sent you a rather lengthy PM about this. But the short answer to this is that I think we could do far worse than to look back and some of these cultures and learn from what they did. Most of them have survived for thousands of years. As Michael Pollan said, "If it were not a healthy diet, the people who follow it wouldn't still be around."

However, in most cases, what makes these people healthy and long-lived isn't just their diet. It's the entire lifestyle. But there's a lot we can learn and adapt.

If you're interested, pick one you like. It can be your own or another one. The Romans might have kicked the butts of the Germans, but the Germans have also been around for a long time!

[ksbrowne]

Lolly, I had the same problem with gnawing hunger. I decided to take it slowly and gradually weaned myself off snacks. First, I switched all my snacks to non-sweet foods, like chips, Doritos, Combos, etc. Although they weren't healthy, at least they weren't sweet. Sweets have always been very addictive for me.

Next I switched to healthier, non-sweet snacks, such as peanuts, graham crachers, pretzels. Also, I would wait to snack until I was truly hungry. Not just slightly.

Then, after that I cut out the snacks, one-by-one. It was much easier to give up snacking when I was only giving up a couple of pretzels, than when I was eating a doughnut or candy bar for a snack. My body had gotten used to less calories.

Now I rarely snack and don't miss it. I get a little hungry, but nothing I can't manage.

[NoelFigart]

One solution you might want to consider at first, and it's gonna make you cringe:

Eat BIG meals at first. Go ahead and LOAD up that plate with what you KNOW is going to carry you to the next meal.

Yeah, I know that it might feel like you're specifically eating to gain weight (though chances are you'll still lose a little. It's very hard to understand how much we really eat by snacking until we stop doing it).

As you get used to not eating between meals, THEN cut down a bit and start making those plates more "diet-friendly". You won't lose out by this, but will gain some serious habit forming behavior.

Now this is gonna depend on your goal. If the be-all and end-all is the scale, this may not make you happy and you might not want to do that.

As a life-long "dieter" who is sick of counting, counting, counting, measuring and what have you, controlling my weight by just eating three one-plate meals a day and not snacking accomplishes two goals -- slow weight loss as well as really great habits.

For the record I am REALLY hungry right now ('bout 5:30 after a long, hard day). 'Course, it's close to dinner time, so I'm all good with that. Hungry for dinner means it's gonna taste GREAT.