Organic Foods

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SimpleLife
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Organic Foods

Post by SimpleLife » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:33 am

How do feel about this?
Is it really a just another marketing ploy like everything else we have come to worry about?
Does it even matter in the long term?
Could we honestly feed everybody in America if all we have is pasture-raised animals and produce with no pesticides and genetic modifications?

I think it would be impossible unless we seriously changed the way we eat and I don't see that happening.

Your thoughts?
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NoelFigart
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Re: Organic Foods

Post by NoelFigart » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:02 pm

SimpleLife wrote:Could we honestly feed everybody in America if all we have is pasture-raised animals and produce with no pesticides and genetic modifications?
Yes. Food prices would jump back up to somewhere around 25-30% of the average income. You can do the math on that. (It's over twice what I pay for food now. I could not do that and afford to heat my home, and I live in New England).

We WOULD see a population drop of course....
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wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:22 pm

This is probably why food costs in many other areas of the world are much higher than in the US -- there's less factory farming, and at least until recently, nearly all the food was organic, though it wasn't labeled organic -- it was the way food was grown.

I don't think it's a marketing thing as much as it is a health food thing. I'm not sure how important it is. I buy very little organic because I can't afford it. I do think that some things are more important than others.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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oolala53
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Post by oolala53 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:06 pm

I don't think it's hooey at all, but I don't think it has much to do with weight loss. I think the environmental damage is hard to argue with, but whether it's worth it to preserve that or not is a matter of consumer priorities, and the poor would take an even bigger hit, just like they will if biofuels get going. There is a famous story of twelve Russian plant scientists who starved to death rather than eat the rare seed varieties in a seed bank they oversaw. It's pretty hard to have consumers see such a connection between their behavior and the results very far away.
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Who Me?
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Post by Who Me? » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:00 am

While I do think that there's a lot of despicable green-washing going on, I believe that there's a lot of value in not dumping agricultural chemicals on our farmland and into our livestock.

I went to a fascinating talk today on California's "sustainable cotton" programs. Cotton is most easily harvested when the plants are all dried out. So, for years, cotton growers sprayed a version of Agent Orange on the cotton fields to kill the plants. Finally someone figured out that t was easier, safer, and cheaper to just withhold water from the plants at the end of their life cycle, and let them dry out, naturally. And would you believe that it was very hard to get the farmers to move away from the time-tested method of spraying deadly chemicals on their fields. Farmers have so much money at risk, that they can't afford to change their practices.

Or how about the methyl iodide, used on strawberry fields? This chemical causes SPONTANEOUS MISCARRIAGES among field-workers. Do you really want that in your food, or on your conscience?

I buy almost entirely organic produce. I support a local organic farm, through a Community Supported Agriculture program. The price is good, and the money goes directly to the organic farm that I buy from.

I live very modestly, but I'm willing to spend more money to do my tiny part to not poison our planet. I just wish that more people could do the same.

jellybeans01
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Post by jellybeans01 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:04 am

I heard from one very food educated person that it was all a hoax and a marketing thing. then from another food educated person that it is not. I really don't know.

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Post by Who Me? » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:06 am

I should add that I think that anyone who tells you that organic food is more nutritious than the same food, raised with agro-chemical needs to get their head examined.

Here's an article which suggest which foods might be best to buy, if you can possibly get an organic options.

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-h ... foods.html

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:17 am

Who Me? wrote:I should add that I think that anyone who tells you that organic food is more nutritious than the same food, raised with agro-chemical needs to get their head examined.

Here's an article which suggest which foods might be best to buy, if you can possibly get an organic options.

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-h ... foods.html
Organic isn't more nutritious, it just doesn't have the pesticides, etc. I think the only area where there's a difference in the nutrient profile is with meat, dairy and eggs. Meat and other products from animals that graze has a better nutrient profile than that from animals that are factory farmed.

I read both Michael Pollan and Mark Bittman and they're a little at odds over this. Pollan pushes organic more, but he also lives in an area where more organic products are available, possibly at more reasonable prices. Bittman isn't against organic, but thinks it's more important to eat real, whole food even if it isn't organic. I tend to agree with Bittman.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

marygrace
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Post by marygrace » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:12 pm

Organic food doesn't have more nutrients, but health might benefit because you aren't consuming any of the pesticides and chemicals that are sprayed on conventional agriculture. Still, the bigger benefit is environmental--organic farming practices are better for the soil, ecosytems, water, and atmosphere.

These things are NOT hoaxes. What is a hoax is the mistaken belief by many Americans anything labeled organic is automatically healthier. I've seen several polls and surveys which have found that many people believe organic food contains less calories or less sugar. The caloric and macronutrient profile of a given organic food--be it kale or cookies--are the same. If you simply replace all of your conventional foods with organic ones, you will not lose weight.

I think organic packaged foods--cookies, cold cereal, chips, etc--are nearly as much of a waste to buy as their conventional counterparts. (They might not contain hydrogenated oils or high-fructose corn syrup, but I couldn't call replacement ingredients like evaporated cane juice or fractionated palm oil particularly natural, either.) I think it's important to buy organic produce, dairy, eggs, and meat whenever possible-- and animal products may be even more important to buy organic than produce, since the animals are fed healthier, organic feed without antibiotics or growth hormones. But if you're debating between the $6 box of organic pop tarts and the $2 conventional box, it probably doesn't make a difference. Ideally, you'd buy neither and make your own from scratch!

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:51 pm

marygrace wrote: Ideally, you'd buy neither and make your own from scratch!
That's what I do! I don't buy cold cereals at all anymore and I make most of my baked goods or buy them from sources that I know use all real ingredients.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

SimpleLife
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Post by SimpleLife » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:05 pm

Thanks for the comments.

I feel torn about organic foods. While I know that it is absolutely better to eat things that are pesticide free and hormone free, I still wonder if the pesticides and hormones cause sickness. I mean, for those of you who read the Bible, you will notice that sickness was rampant when Jesus came. They didn't have processed foods or pesticides. So what caused all their sickness?

Right now I purchase organic products when they are convenient and affordable otherwise I just try to eat fresh, whole foods. I cook all my meals and rarely eat out anymore. I try to avoid hydrogenated oil and HFCS and excessive amounts of sugar.

I would have been easy to buy a boxed cake mix for my son's birthday but I just couldn't give him that hydrogenated oil. So, I spent extra money and time and made everything from scratch and I feel better for having done that.
Starting Stats: April 15, 2011 ~ 35 yrs old ~ 5'2~ 165lbs ~ size 12/14

Goals
1. size 6/8
2. to wake up and go through my day without obsessing about food or weight

wosnes
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Post by wosnes » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:54 pm

SimpleLife wrote:Thanks for the comments.

I feel torn about organic foods. While I know that it is absolutely better to eat things that are pesticide free and hormone free, I still wonder if the pesticides and hormones cause sickness. I mean, for those of you who read the Bible, you will notice that sickness was rampant when Jesus came. They didn't have processed foods or pesticides. So what caused all their sickness?

Right now I purchase organic products when they are convenient and affordable otherwise I just try to eat fresh, whole foods. I cook all my meals and rarely eat out anymore. I try to avoid hydrogenated oil and HFCS and excessive amounts of sugar.

I would have been easy to buy a boxed cake mix for my son's birthday but I just couldn't give him that hydrogenated oil. So, I spent extra money and time and made everything from scratch and I feel better for having done that.
Sounds like you're doing well! While I don't think that the residue from pesticides is beneficial to us, I think it's a smaller matter than all the chemicals, colorings, HFCS, trans-fats added to processed foods. The more processed, industrialized foods we consume, the less healthy and more overweight we become.

As far as "sickness" in the Bible -- I think you have to be careful of translating it too literally. It may not mean the same thing that it means to us now. Also, in times past, people tended to die more from trauma, childbirth, and infectious diseases than cancer, diabetes, heart disease and the results of obesity. I'm not saying those diseases didn't exist, just that they weren't as prominent as they are now -- though Type 2 diabetes was probably exceedingly rare.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

Who Me?
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Post by Who Me? » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:12 pm

Handguns, automobile accidents, and nuclear radiation aren't mentioned in the bible either, but nobody disputes their ability to injure or kill.

We've all observed that the world has changed a lot in the last twenty years. Think how much has changed in the last two thousand. I don't think that not being mentioned in the bible is a good test for the existence of something. Look around the room. Are your computer, electric power, indoor plumbing or plastics mentioned in the bible?

kccc
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Post by kccc » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:05 pm

I think there are two reasons to "go organic"...
- It's better for ME
- It's better for the environment

I do think both are valid, but agree about economic concerns - both in terms of my personal pocketbook and the overall economy.

However, I don't see it as necessarily an "all or nothing" thing, either. So..
- I eat local food when possible (that's another positive impact on the environment - lower "carb footprint" plus it means that the food is fresher and better, even if it's not organic. And sometimes local fams grow organically, but just aren't "certified" as such.)
- I try to eat "minimally processed" - as Wosnes points out, the dyes and stabilizers and fillers and preservatives are at least as bad as the pesticides and fertilizers.
- I select some things to "buy organic" and not others, based on how "dirty" they are... and what I can afford.
- I look for less-expensive ways to go organic - food co-ops, CSAs, and the like. Oh, and growing some for myself.

In short, I do the best I can, try to improve where I can, and try not to sweat it after that.

marygrace
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Post by marygrace » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:26 pm

SimpleLife wrote:Thanks for the comments.

I feel torn about organic foods. While I know that it is absolutely better to eat things that are pesticide free and hormone free, I still wonder if the pesticides and hormones cause sickness. I mean, for those of you who read the Bible, you will notice that sickness was rampant when Jesus came. They didn't have processed foods or pesticides. So what caused all their sickness?

Right now I purchase organic products when they are convenient and affordable otherwise I just try to eat fresh, whole foods. I cook all my meals and rarely eat out anymore. I try to avoid hydrogenated oil and HFCS and excessive amounts of sugar.

I would have been easy to buy a boxed cake mix for my son's birthday but I just couldn't give him that hydrogenated oil. So, I spent extra money and time and made everything from scratch and I feel better for having done that.
As wosnes mentioned, the kinds of sickness that were rampant during Biblical times versus the kind of sickness that are rampant now are quit different. In ancient times, people were more likely to die from infections or accidents. Today, people die from cancer, heart disease, and other "diseases of affluence".

I'm not too up on the scientific research, but from what I do know, many of the chemicals and pesticides sprayed on conventional produce have been found to be carcinogens and/or hormone disruptors. This is the effect on people--the effect on the environment is a whole other story.

Still, while I wholeheartedly believe organics are important for the health of people and the environment, I know not everyone can afford to eat organic all or even most of the time. I believe the most important things to buy organic are meat and dairy, since conventional livestock are fed artificial hormones and antibiotics and unhealthy feed (meat and dairy from organic, grass-fed livestock has been shown to be lower in saturated fat and higher in omega-3 fatty acids). It may be more expensive, but the true cost is reflected in the methods of production. After meat and dairy is produce, and after produce is organic packaged foods, if you buy those at all. Personally, I believe you're better off skipping the packaged items altogether and making those things from scratch.

Graham
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Post by Graham » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:56 am

Interesting to hear the "organic is no more nutritious" statement appear from time to time. Depends on what and how you measure. For example, ketchup made from organic tomatoes turned out to have much higher levels of lycopene than any non-organic ketchups. Lycopene has a role in protecting men from prostate cancer, so just measuring macro-nutrients to compare organic and standard produce may be missing the point.

Organic vegetables show higher levels of trace minerals - conveniently excluded in tests designed to show that agribusiness produce and organic are "just the same".

On the subject of "no processed food in biblical times" - well, they did have processed food - wheat flour. There is archaeological evidence that the contemporary Egyptians, heavy bread eaters, already suffered from many of the diseases of civilization we suffer from today. Pesticides and other chemicals are only part of the modern dietary problem.

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