I've been grappling with this for a couple of days, and I can't shake the sense that I should walk away from No S.
Here's the story:
About five years ago, my partner suffered a spinal cord injury. He was partially paralyzed, and our lives were ripped inside out. He could not and cannot sit for more than twenty minutes without incurring a lot of pain, so as you can imagine we shifted our eating schedules, so he could eat reclining on the sofa. Also, our physical activities (we had never been gym rats, but had always been very outdoorsy) changed drastically.
Life was really challenging, and rather chaotic. And while things have settled down, some of the residues of the chaos remain. I had fallen into the habit of "comfort eating," having some sweets while reading before diner. A few cookies, some squares of dark chocolate. Nothing drastic.
And in the past few years, my weight has crept up post where I would like it to be. Most people would call me slim, but I'd like to lose about ten pounds.
Initially I liked the structure of No S, but two days ago I ran into a situation where I thought the rules violated common sense.
I work a very physical job. I'm on my feet almost all of the day, doing physical labor. I've always had a very fast metabolism. If I don't eat, I get light headed, shaky and feel faint.
But the rules are the rules, right?
So, a few days ago, I had a particularly taxing day, got home late, and was shaking with hunger. I cut up some cheese and had three crackers with cheese to hold me over until dinner was prepared.
And for this, I've failed.
This just doesn't make sense. I know the difference between bored hunger and actual hunger. I think I understand my body well enough to know when I am genuinely hungry.
And yet....
Guys, I'm seriously thinking that the inviolate strictness of this program is not for me. I'm thinking that the zero-tolerance rules are great for some people, but maybe not so sensible for me. I have no plans to "give up" and then retaliate in an orgy of cupcake eating (I actually detest frosting, but that's another story), so I'm not going to walk away from No S, and enter into a life of gluttony. I'm just not sure that the all-or-nothing approach suits my life.
Three crackers when I'm literally shaking with hunger are failure? I can't see how that is a healthy way to treat eating.
Orthdoxy -- when the rules stop making sense to me
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
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Nicest of the Damned
- Posts: 719
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:26 pm
Re: Orthdoxy -- when the rules stop making sense to me
Good for you. I know I do not know the difference between bored hunger and actual hunger. Having to ignore what feels like real hunger is a must for me, because bored hunger and actual hunger feel exactly the same to me. I was really happy to find a diet that doesn't require me to tell the difference between bored hunger and real hunger.Who Me? wrote:I know the difference between bored hunger and actual hunger. I think I understand my body well enough to know when I am genuinely hungry.
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finallyfull
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:10 pm
I think if No S doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. Nobody would fault you for quitting. It sounds like you have gone through some very stressful times lately -- sorry to hear about that! Maybe a two-week vacation from No S would be a good way to just reboot.
Myself, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you are shaking with hunger every single N day, then you clearly need a mod in the form of either eating at different times or something. Again, if it's a regular occurrence, you could build in a small fourth meal, which some people do, that is something planned and light, like a piece of fruit or a salad. Physically speaking, a glass of milk or orange juice would quell the shaking enough to wait for dinner (assuming it's within the hour -- if not, you probably should eat earlier) without becoming a "fail" day. Try it and see -- we think we need food right now, but a caloric drink has an equal affect in the short-term and it allows us to keep the good habit.
The thing for me about No S is that it returns us to our great grandparents' very sane, satiating, calm, delicious and non-preoccupying way of eating. The "strictness" used to be ruled by the fact that we were too busy, it was too much trouble, and too expensive, to eat between meals. Now we have to "choose" strictness if we want to approximate that sanity, the same way we have to "choose" exercise now that technology does the heavy stuff.
For what it's worth. Good luck.
Myself, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you are shaking with hunger every single N day, then you clearly need a mod in the form of either eating at different times or something. Again, if it's a regular occurrence, you could build in a small fourth meal, which some people do, that is something planned and light, like a piece of fruit or a salad. Physically speaking, a glass of milk or orange juice would quell the shaking enough to wait for dinner (assuming it's within the hour -- if not, you probably should eat earlier) without becoming a "fail" day. Try it and see -- we think we need food right now, but a caloric drink has an equal affect in the short-term and it allows us to keep the good habit.
The thing for me about No S is that it returns us to our great grandparents' very sane, satiating, calm, delicious and non-preoccupying way of eating. The "strictness" used to be ruled by the fact that we were too busy, it was too much trouble, and too expensive, to eat between meals. Now we have to "choose" strictness if we want to approximate that sanity, the same way we have to "choose" exercise now that technology does the heavy stuff.
For what it's worth. Good luck.
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BrightAngel
- Posts: 2093
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 pm
- Location: Central California
- Contact:
Re: Orthdoxy -- when the rules stop making sense to me
Who Me,Who Me? wrote:I've been grappling with this for a couple of days,
and I can't shake the sense that I should walk away from No S.
Life was really challenging, and rather chaotic.
Initially I liked the structure of No S,
but two days ago I ran into a situation where I thought the rules violated common sense.
...so...I cut up some cheese and had three crackers with cheese
to hold me over until dinner was prepared.
And for this, I've failed.
This just doesn't make sense.
I'm just not sure that the all-or-nothing approach suits my life.
There are a great many people here who choose to make modifications
to the "Vanilla"--- meaning exactly as written---No S Diet,
and NO ONE has ever followed the plan perfectly...not even Reinhard.
Just do what works best for you.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com
See: DietHobby. com
If you're very much in control of when you really need to eat and when you don't, perhaps you don't really need NoS ... though as you say, it does provide a very useful structure that a lot of people find helpful even if they aren't trying to lose weight (or not trying to lose very much).
For me, the biggest benefit of NoS was to eliminate *random* eating: I used to eat at random intervals, all day, and as a result I had no idea how much I was consuming. NoS is a perfect cure for that. (Oh, and I ate way too many sweets, too. So two biggest benefits, really. "Seconds" was the only S I never really struggled with.)
For people who just want to eliminate random eating but have a particular problem with the three-meal pattern, there's one often-offered suggestion: make it four meals a day, instead. (As Reinhard points out on the main page, there's nothing that actually says that you need to eat exactly three meals a day, that's just the most common default, and probably the best to start with.) In your case, it sounds like right when you return from work is often going to be a problem time: maybe you could add a fourth "mini-meal" each day, and *plan* to eat then? (You'd also be free, of course, to ignore that meal on days when you don't feel you need it.) As I say, for me, the biggest problem was random eating, but this wouldn't be that: this would be planning to eat at a specific time, to answer a specific need. It avoids the slippery slope that can be created by the "I'll just eat when I know I'm hungry" approach. (For most of us, if we really knew how to do that, we wouldn't have any weight to lose!)
For me, the biggest benefit of NoS was to eliminate *random* eating: I used to eat at random intervals, all day, and as a result I had no idea how much I was consuming. NoS is a perfect cure for that. (Oh, and I ate way too many sweets, too. So two biggest benefits, really. "Seconds" was the only S I never really struggled with.)
For people who just want to eliminate random eating but have a particular problem with the three-meal pattern, there's one often-offered suggestion: make it four meals a day, instead. (As Reinhard points out on the main page, there's nothing that actually says that you need to eat exactly three meals a day, that's just the most common default, and probably the best to start with.) In your case, it sounds like right when you return from work is often going to be a problem time: maybe you could add a fourth "mini-meal" each day, and *plan* to eat then? (You'd also be free, of course, to ignore that meal on days when you don't feel you need it.) As I say, for me, the biggest problem was random eating, but this wouldn't be that: this would be planning to eat at a specific time, to answer a specific need. It avoids the slippery slope that can be created by the "I'll just eat when I know I'm hungry" approach. (For most of us, if we really knew how to do that, we wouldn't have any weight to lose!)
I responded to you on your thread, but am not on a device that allows me to cut and paste to here easily. (If you can, I think it would be pertinent to the discussion.)
Let me also point out that though the default number of meals for most people is 3, that's not written anywhere. If your metabolism requires a 4th meal, you can do that (accepting the risk that it's another opportunity for excess). Or you can do a personal mod of some sort - one person here does "fresh fruit at any time" to address this kind of situation. The system can be customized for your own situation. Yes, we usually recommend against it at first, for good reasons, but it can be. And probably will be, if you stick with it long enough.
There is a difference between strictness and inflexibility. No-S is strict. It is not inflexible.
(I think you are really over-reacting to the word "failure"... Which I still have trouble with too, so understand.)
Recommendations: re-read the basic overview, listen to the podcast on "strictness" and perhaps the ones on mods. See if those address your issues.
Or not... In the end, it's totally up to you whether this is a good fit or not.
Either way, best wishes.
Let me also point out that though the default number of meals for most people is 3, that's not written anywhere. If your metabolism requires a 4th meal, you can do that (accepting the risk that it's another opportunity for excess). Or you can do a personal mod of some sort - one person here does "fresh fruit at any time" to address this kind of situation. The system can be customized for your own situation. Yes, we usually recommend against it at first, for good reasons, but it can be. And probably will be, if you stick with it long enough.
There is a difference between strictness and inflexibility. No-S is strict. It is not inflexible.
(I think you are really over-reacting to the word "failure"... Which I still have trouble with too, so understand.)
Recommendations: re-read the basic overview, listen to the podcast on "strictness" and perhaps the ones on mods. See if those address your issues.
Or not... In the end, it's totally up to you whether this is a good fit or not.
Either way, best wishes.
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sophiasapientia
- Posts: 919
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:09 am
- Location: Michigan
Hi Who Me --
I totally agree with what the others have said. There's a world of difference between the pleasant twinge of hunger that one feels when mealtime is approaching and shaking and feeling like passing out from hunger. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You just need to figure out what works for you. Some things that people have tried:
* Eating larger meals. It might be that you are not eating enough to sustain yourself to your next mealtime given your level of activity.
* Eating more protein at meals. I seem to remember that you are a vegetarian. It might be that you need an extra bit of protein to get you through.
* Identifying a healthy "free" food or two -- like a serving of cottage cheese, nuts or veggies -- that you can consume when genuinely needed without it being a fail.
Also, I don't know what your mealtime structure looks like but, as much as possible, I find it very helpful to have consistent mealtimes. I know that this isn't always realistic but regular, set mealtimes give one a better sense of how much you need to sustain you until your next meal and build habit.
Best of luck, whatever you decide!
I totally agree with what the others have said. There's a world of difference between the pleasant twinge of hunger that one feels when mealtime is approaching and shaking and feeling like passing out from hunger. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You just need to figure out what works for you. Some things that people have tried:
* Eating larger meals. It might be that you are not eating enough to sustain yourself to your next mealtime given your level of activity.
* Eating more protein at meals. I seem to remember that you are a vegetarian. It might be that you need an extra bit of protein to get you through.
* Identifying a healthy "free" food or two -- like a serving of cottage cheese, nuts or veggies -- that you can consume when genuinely needed without it being a fail.
Also, I don't know what your mealtime structure looks like but, as much as possible, I find it very helpful to have consistent mealtimes. I know that this isn't always realistic but regular, set mealtimes give one a better sense of how much you need to sustain you until your next meal and build habit.
Best of luck, whatever you decide!
Restarted No S (3rd times a charm!) January 2010 at 145 lbs
Another thought if you do want to find a way to make No-S work is to allow virtual plating in situations like this. Have the few crackers with a little cheese pre-cooking to keep you from feeling sick, but when you ultimately plate your food make sure you're leaving a little "hole" for where they could have gone.
Personally, I like reading your posts so would be happy for you to stay, but if the system just isn't one that's working, there's no life force insisting you stay. If you've generally been finding it helpful, though, you might think about what little tweaks you might make to keep it working.
Julie
Personally, I like reading your posts so would be happy for you to stay, but if the system just isn't one that's working, there's no life force insisting you stay. If you've generally been finding it helpful, though, you might think about what little tweaks you might make to keep it working.
Julie
There's no rule that says only 3 meals daily. I agree with KCCC -- and I also always warn against perfectionism. Strive to do your best, not to be perfect.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."
Remember: Perfect is the enemy of good.wosnes wrote:There's no rule that says only 3 meals daily. I agree with KCCC -- and I also always warn against perfectionism. Strive to do your best, not to be perfect.
If you feel NoS isn't right for you, then it isn't necessarily right for you. But it sounds like you are only having a problem with one small aspect of the diet (no snacking/only 3 meals). It doesn't sound like No Sweets is a problem or that No Seconds causes you grief.
So before you totally abandon a system that you initially liked, why not try modifying it to work for you?
Maybe start by ditching the No Snacks rule. Just cutting out Sweets and Seconds will probably help keep much of the comfort eating at bay. If necessary, stipulate that snacks are only allowed when you are actually hungry - since you can generally tell the difference between actual hunger and bored hunger.
Think of it this way, if there is a speed limit on the road you take to work that is ridiculously and nonsensically low (think 10mph on an interstate-like highway), you have multiple options of how to deal with it.
You can follow it and deal with the inconvenience -having to get up earlier, risking being late to work, etc (the equivalent of following rules of NoS that don't work for you and feeling stressed out and constrained by them).
Or you can just ignore it and speed through the zone risking a ticket or risking a general increase in your likelihood to break other traffic laws, possibly increasing your risk of a ticket ticket (the equivalent of just ignoring the NoS rule that you don't like and marking every day red, weight gain would be the ticket and other NoS habits the other traffic laws.)
Or you could move elsewhere/get a new job so that you don't have to take that road anymore (abandon NoS and possibly find a new diet)
Or you can work to get the inappropriate speed limit changed.
Now, working to change speed limits is a pain in the butt, so although it happens, it's often not the go-to answer. But even though Reinhard wrote the original rules, there is no complicated appeals process or 13 different committees that you have to go through to get them changed. It's just you. So figure out what about the rules is problematic (seems like the restrictions on snacking) and figure out how you can loosen them enough to make sense, without loosening them so much that they aren't helpful (raise the speed limit to 65mph, not 150mph)
Whatever path you choose, good luck. I hope that you find a plan that works for you and brings you happiness.
Finally a diet that I can make a lifestyle!
Started June 2010
6/27/2010 - 226 lbs
10/17/2010 - 203 lbs - 10% weight loss goal!
1/29/2011 - 182 lbs - 2nd 10% weight loss goal!
5/29/2011 - 165 lbs - 3rd 10% weight loss goal! (one more to go)
Started June 2010
6/27/2010 - 226 lbs
10/17/2010 - 203 lbs - 10% weight loss goal!
1/29/2011 - 182 lbs - 2nd 10% weight loss goal!
5/29/2011 - 165 lbs - 3rd 10% weight loss goal! (one more to go)
Thanks for all of your thoughtful replies.
I think that I'll muse on all of this over the next few days.
The general system seems very sensible to me, but I guess I'm chafing under some of the inflexibility that I've sensed on the forum. I think that I *am* uncomfortable with the idea that there's only two options, Succeed or Fail. There was a discussion about this, earlier this week that touched on this topic, and which didn't sit very well with me.
I'm not going to ditch the whole approach to eating with structure. I'm not going to go down the road of test driving diets.
I just need to find my way with this.
I think that I'll muse on all of this over the next few days.
The general system seems very sensible to me, but I guess I'm chafing under some of the inflexibility that I've sensed on the forum. I think that I *am* uncomfortable with the idea that there's only two options, Succeed or Fail. There was a discussion about this, earlier this week that touched on this topic, and which didn't sit very well with me.
I'm not going to ditch the whole approach to eating with structure. I'm not going to go down the road of test driving diets.
I just need to find my way with this.
I think some of us *need* the black and white of succeed versus fail. I know I sort of do. That said, something I don't really discuss much here (for simplicities sake) is that in terms of personal evaluation and reflection I don't track failures by day, but by event.
I have a bowl of ice cream on Monday even though it's definitely not a holiday or special in any way? That was a mistake. That was a failure. But maybe the rest of Monday was okay. Does one failure make the day a failure? If it did, then why not have 3 bowls of ice cream. And might as well throw in seconds at dinner to. And if the whole week can't be green, might as well just wait for next Monday to restart. This can be a dangerous avenue for me. But so can making exceptions. I actually do not keep habit cal. The one month I did a monthly challenge thread here I managed to be green all the way through. And then rebelled by having my worst month yet the following month.
If I have a bowl of ice cream on Monday, that's a fail (for me). No matter what the reason. But it doesn't mean the day, week, month or year is a failure. It doesn't mean my life is a failure. And it *definitely* doesn't mean that *I* am a failure. It just means I screwed up and broke a rule. If eating ice cream on Monday is the worst mistake I'll make in a month, I'm having a pretty awesome month! Heck, if it's the worst mistake I make in a day that makes for a pretty good day. I'm not a perfect person by any stretch. And NoS doesn't require me to be. I make a mistake, I move on. No atoning by fasting the next day or running 20 miles on the treadmill. Just oops, let's do better in the future.
I'm a recovering perfectionist. I used to be almost paralyzed by the fear of failure to the point that there were many things that I wouldn't even try. But sometime over the past decade, I recognized that and made a commitment to change (because I didn't like the direction that attitude was taking me). The result is that (most of the time) I'm not afraid to fail. So what if I make a fool of myself? What does it matter if I'm no where near good enough? I'd rather strive for awesome and fail miserably than only ever try what I knew I could succeed at. And you know, I've had some miserable failures. But I've also had some pretty fun failures. And even some surprising successes.
So what works for *me* is rigid rules, but personal tolerance for failure. Which means if someone asks for viewpoints on whether something is against the rules or not, I give them what my rules are and how I would interpret things accordingly. I try to be clear that it's what works for me, and that what works for them might be different. But I imagine that's not always clear.
In short, even though rigid rules but easy forgiveness for failure works really well for me, it's very possible that a different method (for example more flexible rules, but less tolerance for failure) will work best for someone else.
So keep searching for your way, and keep asking for opinions if it's helpful to you (I know other people's insights have always been very helpful to me, but I imagine YMMV). I hope you find Diet Peace soon
I have a bowl of ice cream on Monday even though it's definitely not a holiday or special in any way? That was a mistake. That was a failure. But maybe the rest of Monday was okay. Does one failure make the day a failure? If it did, then why not have 3 bowls of ice cream. And might as well throw in seconds at dinner to. And if the whole week can't be green, might as well just wait for next Monday to restart. This can be a dangerous avenue for me. But so can making exceptions. I actually do not keep habit cal. The one month I did a monthly challenge thread here I managed to be green all the way through. And then rebelled by having my worst month yet the following month.
If I have a bowl of ice cream on Monday, that's a fail (for me). No matter what the reason. But it doesn't mean the day, week, month or year is a failure. It doesn't mean my life is a failure. And it *definitely* doesn't mean that *I* am a failure. It just means I screwed up and broke a rule. If eating ice cream on Monday is the worst mistake I'll make in a month, I'm having a pretty awesome month! Heck, if it's the worst mistake I make in a day that makes for a pretty good day. I'm not a perfect person by any stretch. And NoS doesn't require me to be. I make a mistake, I move on. No atoning by fasting the next day or running 20 miles on the treadmill. Just oops, let's do better in the future.
I'm a recovering perfectionist. I used to be almost paralyzed by the fear of failure to the point that there were many things that I wouldn't even try. But sometime over the past decade, I recognized that and made a commitment to change (because I didn't like the direction that attitude was taking me). The result is that (most of the time) I'm not afraid to fail. So what if I make a fool of myself? What does it matter if I'm no where near good enough? I'd rather strive for awesome and fail miserably than only ever try what I knew I could succeed at. And you know, I've had some miserable failures. But I've also had some pretty fun failures. And even some surprising successes.
So what works for *me* is rigid rules, but personal tolerance for failure. Which means if someone asks for viewpoints on whether something is against the rules or not, I give them what my rules are and how I would interpret things accordingly. I try to be clear that it's what works for me, and that what works for them might be different. But I imagine that's not always clear.
In short, even though rigid rules but easy forgiveness for failure works really well for me, it's very possible that a different method (for example more flexible rules, but less tolerance for failure) will work best for someone else.
So keep searching for your way, and keep asking for opinions if it's helpful to you (I know other people's insights have always been very helpful to me, but I imagine YMMV). I hope you find Diet Peace soon
Finally a diet that I can make a lifestyle!
Started June 2010
6/27/2010 - 226 lbs
10/17/2010 - 203 lbs - 10% weight loss goal!
1/29/2011 - 182 lbs - 2nd 10% weight loss goal!
5/29/2011 - 165 lbs - 3rd 10% weight loss goal! (one more to go)
Started June 2010
6/27/2010 - 226 lbs
10/17/2010 - 203 lbs - 10% weight loss goal!
1/29/2011 - 182 lbs - 2nd 10% weight loss goal!
5/29/2011 - 165 lbs - 3rd 10% weight loss goal! (one more to go)
Sienna wrote:I used to be almost paralyzed by the fear of failure to the point that there were many things that I wouldn't even try. But sometime over the past decade, I recognized that and made a commitment to change (because I didn't like the direction that attitude was taking me). The result is that (most of the time) I'm not afraid to fail. So what if I make a fool of myself? What does it matter if I'm no where near good enough? I'd rather strive for awesome and fail miserably than only ever try what I knew I could succeed at. And you know, I've had some miserable failures. But I've also had some pretty fun failures. And even some surprising successes.
Oh Sophia, this is a wonderful attitude! A little off topic, but I have been job hunting for six months. I am 45 years old trying to find something new and can't get a break - Needless to say, it has been very discouraging and frustrating. What you said here has more meaning for me than just diet! thanks!
I suggest you examine your habits before No S and determine which of the habits might be the worst culprit contributing keeping the ten pounds on you. Somehow you are eating more than even your fast metabolism can burn. Some people incorporate only one S at a time. You might need only one or two of them.
But I also second drinking milk to tide you over. Have it before you leave work. I keep soup broth around and sometimes sip that from a cup while I make dinner. It works surprisingly well to quell strong hunger without actually ruining the pleasure of eating when you're hungry! (To me, that's the danger of the extra meal. If it prevents you from actually being hungry for dinner, you're back to reinforcing eating without hunger cues.) I've found that shaky hunger isn't consistent for me. Some days I feel I can hardly wait the 5 hours to dinner. Others I can go 6 or 7 easily. Most days 5 is just about right; you might be surprised to find that your body adjusts.
But I also second drinking milk to tide you over. Have it before you leave work. I keep soup broth around and sometimes sip that from a cup while I make dinner. It works surprisingly well to quell strong hunger without actually ruining the pleasure of eating when you're hungry! (To me, that's the danger of the extra meal. If it prevents you from actually being hungry for dinner, you're back to reinforcing eating without hunger cues.) I've found that shaky hunger isn't consistent for me. Some days I feel I can hardly wait the 5 hours to dinner. Others I can go 6 or 7 easily. Most days 5 is just about right; you might be surprised to find that your body adjusts.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
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Blithe Morning
- Posts: 1221
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota
I wrote a post then deleted it because I realized it didn't address the core issue of the rules making sense which is something I've had to deal with.
At the end of the day, we are all adults and each of us is responsible for ourselves. If you need to eat, then eat. If you don't, then don't. You can work your situation into the orthodoxy of No S by adding a mini-meal or calling the Shakes an S. Or you can just acknowledge that this sometimes happens and not call it anything, even a failure.
The core principle is that you have some sort of guideline to distinguish between true, physical hunger and that hard wired pull to eat which leads to comfort eating or eating at the first twinge of hunger or what have you. It's been said here before, the drive to eat is primal and powerful. It's not easily managed with good intentions and negotiation. For most of us, it needs muscular, firm direction in the form of habit and cultural mores. That's why most of us need strictness.
That said, as with the Sabbath, No S was made for you, not you for No S. Make it work for you so that it makes sense AND you are happy with your weight and relationship (if you can call it that) with food. Because really, No S is a means to an end and I think we forget that sometimes.
At the end of the day, we are all adults and each of us is responsible for ourselves. If you need to eat, then eat. If you don't, then don't. You can work your situation into the orthodoxy of No S by adding a mini-meal or calling the Shakes an S. Or you can just acknowledge that this sometimes happens and not call it anything, even a failure.
The core principle is that you have some sort of guideline to distinguish between true, physical hunger and that hard wired pull to eat which leads to comfort eating or eating at the first twinge of hunger or what have you. It's been said here before, the drive to eat is primal and powerful. It's not easily managed with good intentions and negotiation. For most of us, it needs muscular, firm direction in the form of habit and cultural mores. That's why most of us need strictness.
That said, as with the Sabbath, No S was made for you, not you for No S. Make it work for you so that it makes sense AND you are happy with your weight and relationship (if you can call it that) with food. Because really, No S is a means to an end and I think we forget that sometimes.
Maybe the problem isn't totally the diet, and definately not all on you, but a way of looking at it. I don't think anyone expects never to have any failures, but the word failure is in itself quite harsh. Maybe the failure is actually an incompatibility between No S and your life, in a particular situation on a particular day.
It didn't work that day. It doesn't make the diet worthless or you a loser. You made an intelligent choice, which you had thought about.
In a way the No S even worked during the failure because you weren't eating mindlessly, it wasn't "invisible food" which you don't even register... so you eat some more.
It didn't work that day. It doesn't make the diet worthless or you a loser. You made an intelligent choice, which you had thought about.
In a way the No S even worked during the failure because you weren't eating mindlessly, it wasn't "invisible food" which you don't even register... so you eat some more.
When nothing goes right...go left.
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jellybeans01
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:10 pm
- Location: San Antonio
I really agree with this.mamamia wrote:I haven't really thought of No-S as a diet with rigid rules. I think of it more as an exercise in forming good habits that will create a foundation for healthy eating - whatever that entails for you.
Normally, having three (or more, or less) set meals per day is enough for most people that feeling true hunger just isn't going to be a massive problem. Especially once you have the habits down and realise that no, your stomach really does not need 3 portions of dinner even if it was delicious (or was that just me...). So to feel so hungry that you are literally shaking doesn't seem 'normal' to me.
The NoS rules are simple and yes, seemingly rigid. But the principles of NoS are what seem important to me. Eat meals not snacks, don't eat a lot of sugary sweet things, and eat a plateful of filling, healthy food. I'm sure everyone has slightly different ways of following these rules or principles.
I'm wondering whether your first fail is hitting you harder than you anticipated? You've been extremely successful so far and have seemed to be following the NoS rules very well. A technical fail is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, especially since you ate because you really needed to, not out of greed.
I think you're right about my First Failure.
I think, though, that I'm not going to count eating because I'm so hungry that I have the shakes as a failure. To not listen to my own health would be absurd.
Of course I have to be wise about what I choose to do in those situations. I know my body well enough to understand that a gloopy cupcake would just make me ill. So, if I have three or four crackers or a pieces of fruit or a slice of bread when I'm "shutting down" I can accept that.
Last night, I was feeling peckish. It was a Sunday. I could have eaten the entire contents of my fridge and not "failed." However, I opted to wait half an hour, and the apetite subsided.
I think, though, that I'm not going to count eating because I'm so hungry that I have the shakes as a failure. To not listen to my own health would be absurd.
Of course I have to be wise about what I choose to do in those situations. I know my body well enough to understand that a gloopy cupcake would just make me ill. So, if I have three or four crackers or a pieces of fruit or a slice of bread when I'm "shutting down" I can accept that.
Last night, I was feeling peckish. It was a Sunday. I could have eaten the entire contents of my fridge and not "failed." However, I opted to wait half an hour, and the apetite subsided.
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BrightAngel
- Posts: 2093
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 pm
- Location: Central California
- Contact:
Sounds to me a sensible and workable approach,Who Me? wrote:I think you're right about my First Failure.
I think, though, that I'm not going to count eating because I'm so hungry that I have the shakes as a failure. To not listen to my own health would be absurd.
Of course I have to be wise about what I choose to do in those situations. I know my body well enough to understand that a gloopy cupcake would just make me ill. So, if I have three or four crackers or a pieces of fruit or a slice of bread when I'm "shutting down" I can accept that.
Last night, I was feeling peckish. It was a Sunday. I could have eaten the entire contents of my fridge and not "failed." However, I opted to wait half an hour, and the apetite subsided.
for a person who is without strong tendencies to rationalize, justify
or become easily emeshed in Denial.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com
See: DietHobby. com
I am, thankfully, not ensnared in a complicated relationship with food.
I had admittedly gotten a bit sloppy in my snacking habits, but overall I think I've got a healthy approach to eating. I actually don't have much of a sweet tooth, and over the last few years, I've gotten away from eating most processed foods.
What I needed as a light tap on the reset button, not a total change in my life. I think I'm on the right track.
I had admittedly gotten a bit sloppy in my snacking habits, but overall I think I've got a healthy approach to eating. I actually don't have much of a sweet tooth, and over the last few years, I've gotten away from eating most processed foods.
What I needed as a light tap on the reset button, not a total change in my life. I think I'm on the right track.
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gratefuldeb67
- Posts: 6256
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:26 pm
- Location: Great Neck, NY
who me, i think that possibly you're just having a bad reaction to the word failure. the strictness of the rules is good for people who don't want "grey areas" and are trying to develop the habit of eliminating mindless snacking. i think you mentioned that you have a very high metabolism before and i would simply modify NoS to meet your needs, by including a fourth planned meal.. the main thing here is to eliminate random snacking that is unconscious. obviously if your body is telling you, you haven't got enough food, because you are shaking from hunger, then you either have to make your meals more filling, or have another small meal.
i had a bad reaction to the word "failure" in the early days of NoS, but if you think about it in terms of non-emotional computer programmer type language (remember reinhard is a computer guy) and not read any judgment into that word, you might have an easier time accepting it and even grow to embrace the simplicity of it. i have a lot of failure marks on my calendar, and i'm really not happy about them, but i know that i'm trying.. and one day, those failures with repeated attempts, will lead to success and i will have a fairly accurate description of how my journey has developed.
have a good week
debs
i had a bad reaction to the word "failure" in the early days of NoS, but if you think about it in terms of non-emotional computer programmer type language (remember reinhard is a computer guy) and not read any judgment into that word, you might have an easier time accepting it and even grow to embrace the simplicity of it. i have a lot of failure marks on my calendar, and i'm really not happy about them, but i know that i'm trying.. and one day, those failures with repeated attempts, will lead to success and i will have a fairly accurate description of how my journey has developed.
have a good week
debs
There is no Wisdom greater than Kindness
Who me, thank you for posting this! I think I have probably benefited as much as you..but in a totally different way! That is the great thing about these threads..you never know what you will gain reading through all the discussions! I love the terms "food peace" and "recovering perfectionist" and am going to make them a part of my daily thoughts on my food journey. Who, I think you are doing a great job of balancing your "life-plate"....which seems very full and getting the No-S set to suit you will come with a few tweaks on your part, I'm sure. Don't be too hard on yourself!
"If you realized how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think another negative thought."
Peace Pilgrim
Peace Pilgrim
Sound advice, everyone! Thanks also for starting this thread in the first place, Who me?
I had had a particularly "bad" day on Monday (again, what I view as bad may not necessarily be in others' opinion!) Basically, I did not stick with my 3 meals rule and had extra food after dinner. Lots of mini bingeing and nibbling etc. I then started to think about going off No S since in a moment of insanity I thought it wasn't working for me, and I felt like throwing the towel in and starting anew with another diet plan tomorrow!! I even weighed myself first thing Tuesday morning - well of course I had a 3 to 4 lbs weight gain....
it seemed like I really wanted to punish myself. However, I had calmed down somewhat since the day before and instead of toying around with different plans, I decided to draw a mental line through the day before and carry on as before. Feeling sooo much better today (mentally) and decided to come on and read the No S board again for some reinforcement. Weight loss will be a long slog for me and I don't say that to be defeatist, just being realistic since I don't think I am the 'average' dieter. A few health issues to blame....as well as my generous S Days, no doubt (LOL!)
Anyway - thank you all for contributing to this most helpful thread. No S'ers, you guys ROCK!!!
I had had a particularly "bad" day on Monday (again, what I view as bad may not necessarily be in others' opinion!) Basically, I did not stick with my 3 meals rule and had extra food after dinner. Lots of mini bingeing and nibbling etc. I then started to think about going off No S since in a moment of insanity I thought it wasn't working for me, and I felt like throwing the towel in and starting anew with another diet plan tomorrow!! I even weighed myself first thing Tuesday morning - well of course I had a 3 to 4 lbs weight gain....
it seemed like I really wanted to punish myself. However, I had calmed down somewhat since the day before and instead of toying around with different plans, I decided to draw a mental line through the day before and carry on as before. Feeling sooo much better today (mentally) and decided to come on and read the No S board again for some reinforcement. Weight loss will be a long slog for me and I don't say that to be defeatist, just being realistic since I don't think I am the 'average' dieter. A few health issues to blame....as well as my generous S Days, no doubt (LOL!) Anyway - thank you all for contributing to this most helpful thread. No S'ers, you guys ROCK!!!
No S-er since December 2009
Streamlined S Days: 6/25/12
SW: 170 /CW: 127
Weight loss to date: 43 lbs
Streamlined S Days: 6/25/12
SW: 170 /CW: 127
Weight loss to date: 43 lbs
Can I take the opportunity to say how impressed I am with everyone's raw honesty and candor? This forum is an awe-inspiring place. People are being very brave here, by being so blunt and honest about things that most people might choose never to talk about.
I know I'm sounding sappy and sentimental, like it's Group Hug Time, or something. But you guys really are special.
I know I'm sounding sappy and sentimental, like it's Group Hug Time, or something. But you guys really are special.
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BrightAngel
- Posts: 2093
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 pm
- Location: Central California
- Contact:
I guess my perspective on the rules, and the angle I tend to give advice from, is this: I'm one of those people who's really good at justifying things. It would be very easy to me to declare to myself that food doesn't count because I'm REALLY HUNGRY. Or because fruit is good for me, so I ought to eat this virtuous piece of fruit between meals. Or because it would probably have fit on my plate if I had put it there. Or because it's cold and I need the extra fuel. Or because this food has lots of vitamins. Or because I didn't eat very much yesterday and if I had eaten this yesterday, it would have fit on my plate. Or because it's non-fat (or sugar-free, or doesn't have carbs, or is rich in Vitamin C and we need more Vitamin C). Or because I could have eaten MORE food than this and I didn't, and if I call it a failure I'll feel bad but really I was good because I didn't eat all that other stuff I could have eaten.
Basically, I'm the classic slippery-sloper. And I know that No S is a very unrestrictive diet, so if I expect to lose any weight at all on it, I'm going to have to follow closely the very few, very reasonable rules it DOES require. And if I fail, I need to understand that failure is not a horrible thing and doesn't make me a horrible person and doesn't mean that in the long run, I will never succeed -- but if I refuse to call failure "failure," I'm not fooling anyone but myself.
For people who don't have issues with this kind of thing, it probably isn't necessary to be as strict as I need to be. But I tend to throw it out there, because for people who DO have issues, it can be very alluring to get talked into "It's OK, it doesn't count, don't worry about it."
Basically, I'm the classic slippery-sloper. And I know that No S is a very unrestrictive diet, so if I expect to lose any weight at all on it, I'm going to have to follow closely the very few, very reasonable rules it DOES require. And if I fail, I need to understand that failure is not a horrible thing and doesn't make me a horrible person and doesn't mean that in the long run, I will never succeed -- but if I refuse to call failure "failure," I'm not fooling anyone but myself.
For people who don't have issues with this kind of thing, it probably isn't necessary to be as strict as I need to be. But I tend to throw it out there, because for people who DO have issues, it can be very alluring to get talked into "It's OK, it doesn't count, don't worry about it."
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Eileen7316
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:59 pm
- Location: Florida