Vanilla No-S: A Very Strong Opinion

[NoelFigart]

This is mostly for people who are new to No-S.

You see a lot of people who have been doing this awhile talk about mods they've made and the results they may or may not have seen from them. You'll even see me talk about it a bit in my own check-in thread.

Even so...

I'm gonna have to say that you should beware the mods for quite awhile. REALLY, no kidding, DO Vanilla No-S (No sweets, no snacks, no seconds, except, sometimes, on days beginning with S) for a long time before you decide to do a mod. When I say a long time, I mean a period of at least three months, but better six months to a year. I know that sounds like a very long time but until you do it, you won't have a decent baseline from which to judge whether or not a mod is appropriate.

I did strict Vanilla No-S for almost six months, with my weight bouncing around a lot, but landing at about an eight pound loss over that period of time. Yes, slllooooowwww, but do notice a loss was happening, so in theory, I could have stuck with that forever and it wouldn't have hurt me, even if it meant a very very slow weight loss.

However,

Type II diabetes runs in my family. This does mean that eating lower carb is probably a smart way to go and not just in terms of dramatic weight losses that the diet promotes. I feel better, more energetic and clearer-headed eating like this. I also have a friend who feels logy and gross eating as much meat as I do. She does better on a diet high in whole grains. I think this is rather an individual thing.

But until you do the strict vanilla, what you don't have is a solid, long-term baseline from which to judge. So even though I have a mod I like and that works for me. (Low carb and redefining "S" in my misanthropic and introverted world as "Socializing"), I did take a reasonably long time to get the baseline before I decided that these mods were going to be appropriate to solve the problem.

I'd be curious to know what other long-timers think. I'm pretty firm in the opinion, but hey, I could have my facts wrong.

[kccc]

Noel, I'm with you on that 100% plus... but you probably guessed that would be my stance.

I think it takes a while for some of the old bad habits to clear out enough for you to be able to make good decisions on mods.

New habits take practice - we all know that. New habits that are replacing old habits take even MORE practice. You have to give yourself that time.

It's hard to be patient. But it works better if you can be.

[oolala53]

If there is anything I'd take out of the book, it's the reference to its taking three weeks to establish a new habit. I think people glom onto that are think everything is hunky dorey after that. Not so! The National Weight Control Registry reports that a minimum of TWO YEARS of compliance marks the shortest time of adherence that signals a low likelihood of serious relapse.

I know that is slightly canted from what you were saying, but I think it supports it. I think premature mods increase the chance of non-compliance. This is not like a diet where you have food choices, times, amounts etc. to struggle against. I consider it mostly about timing. Find the right gaps between your meals for your lifestyle. Find the right beverage to tide you over, if needed. Let your tastes evolve. Let your S days evolve as long as you can stand it. I waited 15 months and it has finally pretty much changed without my having modified on purpose.

Don't give up. Odds are you'll be back. You might as well learn here.

[sophiasapientia]

I *mostly* agree with this. I think there can be exceptions (medical, pregnancy, etc) but I do think mods should be made sparingly so that habit has enough time to develop and the body has time to adjust.

With that said, if someone is doing vanilla No S with perfect (or very near perfect) compliance, and continually gaining weight, I'm not sure that I'd recommend that they give it a full 6 months to a year before they look into a mod. I know that there have been cases where folks have really given vanilla No S a solid try, for an extended period of time, and gained a fair amount of weight and wound up feeling very discouraged. The fact of the matter is that some of us -- especially those of us on the shorter and/or older and/or smaller end of the specturm --can't eat 3 plates of whatever we want with unrestricted S Days and not gain. Unfortunately. I'd look at overall compliance first and exercise habits second and, if both of these factors were already solid and in place, I'd probably look at adding a mod well before the 6 month to a year mark. JMHO.

Slow but steady weight loss is a different matter as is adding in mods when, in actuality, overall compliance is not solid and the Habitcal is filled with red. In these cases, I think sticking it out and focusing on building a strong habit is a good plan.

ETA: I just want to clarify that by "gaining weight," I don't mean temporary, normal gain -- post S-Day weight that disappears by the end of the week, TOM gain, etc -- I mean a steady rise in weight that does not drop down and continues to increase over time even with perfect No S compliance and regular exercise.

[oolala53]

That is a good exception, SS. I don't know what the experience is like, and I have to trust that the person is paying attention to hunger cues and satiety at the meals as well. I've also read of people who use the plan for weeks or months but still never feel stomach-empty hunger. That is a sign to me that they are eating too much at their meals. Such people may need to purposely decrease the amount of food that looks right to them, or alter the ratio of dense to water-rich foods. But I'm just shooting in the dark.

Mods for health reasons are always priority.

[milliem]

I'd also agree that Vanilla NoS is generally the 'go to' version, and it's worth trying it that way for a good long while before you start adding mods.

A slight exception for me would be if you are consistently seeing failures attempting Vanilla NoS. If that happens, I'd say it's worth trying adapting a bit, keeping in a snack or two, or thinking about how many times you eat per day etc. This isn't exactly a mod though as I'm pretty sure it's accepted that you can cut out one S at a time and work your way towards full Vanilla NoS.

Just thought I'd bring it up as Vanilla NoS can be pretty daunting at times! I do think in those cases it's important to make sure you are aiming for Vanilla rather than 'oh it's too hard I'll just keep snacks/sweets/seconds in' for an indefinite period of time. I'm somewhat guilty of adding a 4th meal (although often it's only 3 a day as I skip breakfast most days) and I think I should be working towards cutting that out more and more (trying to have the afternoon mini-meal only on non-breakfast days at least!!)

[NoSRocks]

GREAT POST, Noel! I for one am very "guilty" of imposing mods upon myself and as you may (all) know, from reading my posts, this hasn't been successful for me in the long run...also I have trouble sticking to the mods rather than what works best for me, sanity-wise at least - and that's vanilla no S. Granted, I have had zilch weight loss since I restarted, however given a few ups and downs, I'm still at the weight I started out at the beginning of the year. When I consider my ability to gain weight inexplicably quickly - particularly over this past year or two, this isn't so bad. I think I have a habit of self-sabotaging or over-thinking the 'rules' not to mention deviating to other plans, thinking they'll be more effective. Nothing other than No S has stuck nor worked long term. I'm trying to change up my exercise routine by treadmilling an hour a day. So far, I've managed to keep it up. I figure this should be my one 'mod' for at least 3 - 4 months and then I can re-evaluate if need be after that time.

BTW - oolala!! congratulations - another 2 lbs lost!!! FANTASTIC!!!

[NoSnacker]

This is mostly for people who are new to No-S.


I'm gonna have to say that you should beware the mods for quite awhile. REALLY, no kidding, DO Vanilla No-S (No sweets, no snacks, no seconds, except, sometimes, on days beginning with S) for a long time before you decide to do a mod.

mmm, never really paid attention to except, sometimes, on days beginning with S. so does this mean that if we can control what we do on the weekends like sticking to 3 squares and have a snack occassionally or seconds/sweets if we feel like it and not go S days gone wild? being so new i feel that i definitely need to take a look at my S days. ate way too much yesterday and feel sick today after having a couple good N weeks. not worth it .

OOLALA, congrats on the loss...you go girl!

[oolala53]

Don't decide ahead of time what to do on your S days. Let those be the days you practice having freedom of choice. You're doing enough to plan and stick to meals on N days. Wait at least 12 weekends before you even think about it! This is not like a diet where you keep reading over and over what it's asking you to do because it's so complicated. Eat three meals a day during the week. Eat what you feel like eating or are hungry for on the weekend. That's it. Now go take care of something else in life! Or lounge!

[NoelFigart]

milliem, yeah, you have a good point. If you're gaining after a month on perfect compliance and no crazy S days, yeah, you might need to mod sooner.

I guess I didn't think too hard about that. I'm short, a chronic dieter and in my 40s, and I still lost a little bit even with some crazy S-days as long as my N days are good. But that caution is a good point. I didn't think there might be people even unluckier than me in Slender Genes Roulette.

[sheepish]

That is a good exception, SS. I don't know what the experience is like, and I have to trust that the person is paying attention to hunger cues and satiety at the meals as well. I've also read of people who use the plan for weeks or months but still never feel stomach-empty hunger. That is a sign to me that they are eating too much at their meals. Such people may need to purposely decrease the amount of food that looks right to them, or alter the ratio of dense to water-rich foods. But I'm just shooting in the dark.

Mods for health reasons are always priority.

I think decreasing the number of meals can also work well. After a while of doing No S as three meals a day, I realised that I just wasn't usually hungry for breakfast so I've cut it out. Very occasionally (like once a month) I wake up hungry for breakfast and then I let myself eat it and I don't count it as a fail but, for the most part, I stick to two meals a day.

[oolala53]

Yes, that's an idea, too. Sometimes after wild S days, I wasn't hungry in the early morning and often felt that I wasn't ever going to get hungry again! Usually by lunch time at work, I was ready, esp. if I didn't have coffee or any beverage but water.

[osoniye]

I totally agree that vanilla would be best, if it's feasible with someone's schedule.
I'm single, live overseas, and have a busy social life during the week and nearly zero on the weekends. If I had restricted myself to vanilla, I don't think I could have done NoS at all. I've done too many mods for my own good, and I admit that, but for me doing floating S days at least, was a "necessity" for sanity and compliance. I think each person has to look at his or her situation, but for most people, vanilla is probably the most logical way to start!

[SunCat]

I have to agree with you. Chronic dieters are used to complex rules and points and food lists - this may seem too simple to work without other restrictions and encourage mods where none are really needed.

Sure, some may need those tweaks and mods, but a good vanilla base will clarify where mods need to be made (actual, not perceived or expected need). And, the more simple the plan, the more likely there will be long term compliance.

[wosnes]

I unintentionally started No-S with a modification. I missed the one plate rule and for the first year I followed No-S ate one serving of whatever was being served. If my meal was on more than one plate -- well, so be it. It worked. By the time I realized there was a one plate rule, I couldn't see a reason to change.

More often than not I eat two meals instead of three. It works well for me.

If you find you're gaining instead of losing, I think you have to look at what and how much is on those 3 plates. Some people might consider that food intolerances or other health issues are leading to the weight gain.

I have modified the S's. Initially I took them as written, but that didn't work well for me. Then I started floating S days and that worked well. Now I allow myself one S daily. Most days I don't use it and I can't say "Well, I didn't take an S yesterday so I get two today." If I don't take an S, it's gone. This is working extremely well for me. I think the biggest plus for me is that I don't have to wonder how many S's I've taken during a week.

I do allow some exceptions to that, but they're only for major holidays or very special events. Generally, things that happen yearly or even less often.

I think the biggest reason diets fail is that they don't work for you; you work for them. Find a way to eat that will work for you and enable you to meet your goals.

“Diets are like trying to sell everyone the same style and size shoe. If this way of eating is forced and not really you, you’ll revert to your old patterns every time. Better to find a way to eat for life.†Cookbook author Pam Anderson

[Joyofsix]

Thanking you all for sharing your experiences. I'll be staying vanilla for quite awhile I guess.

[BrightAngel]

I think the biggest reason diets fail is
that they don't work for you; you work for them.
Find a way to eat that will work for you and enable you to meet your goals.

“Diets are like trying to sell everyone the same style and size shoe.
If this way of eating is forced and not really you,
you’ll revert to your old patterns every time.
Better to find a way to eat for life.†Cookbook author Pam Anderson

I totally agree.
I think this is an Ultimate Truth.

[wosnes]

I think the biggest reason diets fail is
that they don't work for you; you work for them.
Find a way to eat that will work for you and enable you to meet your goals.

“Diets are like trying to sell everyone the same style and size shoe.
If this way of eating is forced and not really you,
you’ll revert to your old patterns every time.
Better to find a way to eat for life.†Cookbook author Pam Anderson

I totally agree.
I think this is an Ultimate Truth.

Whoa...Ultimate Truth. Wow!

But seriously, I think you have to find something that you can do day in and day out for the rest of your life and not think about it and not feel deprived. It's not a diet; it's the way you eat.