10 weeks in + getting nervous

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi guys! I'm excited to post here for the first time... you have no idea what an inspiration all of you are to me -- I'm so grateful for NoS and this community; I have been lurking for a long time!

I have been doing vanilla NoS "successfully" (no red days) for about 10 weeks, with some exercise. S days were crazy at first but have mellowed out. Eating NoS style has been completely life-changing in that I feel sane about food for the first time in forever. For that benefit alone, I'm not giving up NoS any time soon! I can easily see sticking to it forever.

However, (I haven't weighed in -- am trying not to obsess over numbers) I'm noticing that my clothes are maybe a little snugger and I think I'm looking a little puffier in the face! So I'm feeling discouraged.

My question is: is 10 weeks too soon to start worrying about this (is a slight gain at first a blip on the radar?) or do I need to add in some mods so I don't continue to gain?

I love the elegance of vanilla NoS, but don't want to keep my head in the sand if it's just not working for me in terms of weight loss. (Ultimately I need to lose 50+ pounds.)

If I should add in some guidelines, I'm wondering where to start.

What do you think?

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:02 pm

I voted to stick to vanilla No-S and no mods. It's not unusual to not lose or maybe gain a little initially.

You might want to look at what and how much you're eating. I think there's a tendency to load up plates to prevent being hungry between meals. You might need to take smaller portions.

vmsurbat · Post by **vmsurbat** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Hi! I also voted to stick to Vanilla NoS with no mods.

Since NoS is a lifestyle diet--something you'll do for the rest of your life, 10 weeks in is way too soon to be modifying.

I think there is a difference between modifying the rules (as in changing them, adding more, certain restrictions) and thinking through what is working for you and what you might want to change at some point.

To me, the difference is a rule is a fence, a boundary, something NOT moveable. With Vanilla NoS those rules are: No Sweets, No Seconds, No Snacks except on S days. That is the strict boundary. Within that boundary, NoS gives lots of freedom about what, when, and how much to eat. You don't NEED to pile on food on the plates (not that you are, but I use that as an example). I actually did have *quite* full plates at the beginning.

Over time, without any mods (as in new rules), I've gradually changed the amount and composition of my meals because I wanted to, not because I changed the boundaries.

I suggest you think about your meals/plates. Are they currently satisfying? Are you enjoying the foods you are eating? Are you starting to feel too full after a meal? or N day? Let these kinds of assessments lead you naturally to satisfying, healthy meals.

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:37 am

Thanks for the great replies. They are much appreciated!

Good ideas -- I'll evaluate portion sizes and quality/satisfaction some more before adding any new rules. With work, my eating schedule is a little unpredictable so I've found myself sometimes making a massive lunch just in case I won't be able to get to dinner at a normal time, then either eating a normal dinner anyway or having to wait until super late and then having another massive plate. Not ideal. Or, in anticipation of a late work night, sometimes I'll plan to have plate 3 really late so I don't have to go 8+ hours between dinner and sleep and risk getting super hungry before bed.

Anyway, I'm going to have a look at plate composition, try to be more mindful about normalizing my routine, and be patient.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:15 am

I would caution against eating a large lunch in case dinner is late. Eat your normal meal. If dinner is delayed or you get hungry, you can have a glass of milk or juice. Then try to eat a normal dinner whenever you have it.

gratefuldeb67 · Post by **gratefuldeb67** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:00 pm

well, i don't think you should obsess over numbers but i do think you should weigh just to see if your feelings actually match up with any remarkable gain or not... often i can eat a very salty meal and be very puffed up and gain anywhere between 3 and 4 lbs even in one day, but that often will go right back off within a day or so... maybe you ate some salty food...
at any rate, i do believe in reality checks, because honestly i think sometimes our minds will trick us and we think we are doing worse (or better) than we really are, and it's just good to actually check and see... maybe you're worrying for nothing...
but, i don't suggest going and doing any particular mods because of this... you're already considering modifying NoS, when you really don't have any accurate info on whether you gained or not...
in either case, good luck!

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:46 pm

vmsurbat wrote:Hi! I also voted to stick to Vanilla NoS with no mods.

Since NoS is a lifestyle diet--something you'll do for the rest of your life, 10 weeks in is way too soon to be modifying.

Yes, I agree.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:59 am

The only "mod" I might second is whether you're getting reasonably legitimately hungry for your meals. If you read the book, it's implied that you will experience hunger. It may be hard to gauge, but about an hour of hunger for a couple of meals a day I say is reasonable to tolerate. If you find you're not, or you can't tell, eat lesser amounts of salty/fatty/sweet dense foods (protein, fat, starch) and more fresh veggies at your meals. I don't remember if anyone suggested smaller plates for one or two meals of if they consider that a mod.
\

But really, you sound like you're doing great!

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:37 am

I voted "Stick to vanilla", and I think you should hold out for as long as possible before you start making mods. It's all too easy to mod yourself right out of NoS and back into a too-restrictive "diet" rather than a sustainable pattern of moderate eating.

But congratulations on how well you're doing! Waiting 10 weeks before asking this question shows you've got the patience for this. We've had quite a few people ask this same question after, say, 10 days.

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:06 am

Oops! I only just realized that more comments had been added. Awesome!

@wosnes "I would caution against eating a large lunch in case dinner is late."

Yes, posting has made me realize that "strategy" isn't actually working, though I thought it made sense on paper. Plus that overfull feeling after a big lunch reminds me of the bad ol' days. I'll normalize portions and try the milk/juice idea.

@gratefuldeb67 "you're already considering modifying NoS, when you really don't have any accurate info on whether you gained or not..."

Hm, very good point. Ugh, I'm really worried about an unpleasant surprise number though. :( Totally irrational, I know -- but I don't even want to see it!

@leafy_greens Thanks for the input! :)

@oolala53 I'm not sure I understand. (I have not read the book -- just the website and boards.) I'm not really experiencing more than an hour of hunger before meals on a consistent basis. (Sometimes yes, but rarely.) Are you saying that means that I should actively add more veggies and/or use smaller plates + reduce to two meals?

@DaveMc Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:18 am

Oh, no, don't reduce to two meals! I was just saying that if you're not getting hungry for your meals, you might consider cutting your portions.

The rest of it is premature, so I won't clarify for now...

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:30 am

Ah, I see. Hm. I am probably only truly hungry for maybe one of the three meals each day. I'll take a closer look at this and re-evaluate portions. Problematically, part of why I've been loading up plates on some days is because I'm actually surprised at having been able to stay "green" for so long, and now am loathe to break my "perfect" record by eating a less filling plate and resorting to snacking. Maybe I'm going overboard with the concern about greens and reds... if it's detrimental. Anyway, I think I will just make an effort to observe portions for now and then adjust very slowly. I have a tendency to be severe at first if I make a new commitment ("smaller portions").

vmsurbat · Post by **vmsurbat** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:16 am

LaurenExists wrote:Anyway, I think I will just make an effort to observe portions for now and then adjust very slowly. I have a tendency to be severe at first if I make a new commitment ("smaller portions").

This is the right attitude. One of the beauties of NoS is that because you are only dealing with 3 meals a day, you can focus on what you are eating and really assess the situation. Reinhard talks quite a bit about noticing what you are eating and then slowly, naturally making satisfying adjustments. I've been following NoS for five years and still find that I'm naturally making adjustments for the better--without conscious mods or rousing the dreaded "diethead."

I concur with DaveMc and think you are off to a great start with NoS and solidly on the path to success.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:39 am

Don't assume you'll snack inappropriately if you get hungry. Beverages are allowed. Perhaps experiment with just one meal and not even every day. Above all, enjoy every bite!

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:10 am

You don't need to resort to snacking simply because you're hungry. Being hungry doesn't mean you have to eat. Though we've been trained to act as if it is, hunger is NOT an emergency. I've found that I can feel hungry, but usually in a few minutes that feeling passes.

In Food Matters Mark Bittman wrote:

There's a basic truth here: there are stages of hunger, and we -- Americans -- have become accustomed to feeding ourselves at the first sign. This is the equivalent of taking a nap every time you get tired, which hardly anyone does.

There are levels of hunger, and there is a very real difference between hunger and starvation. Starvation is a physical state; your body is deprived of essential nutrients or calories for a long period of time. Probably no one reading this book has ever been truly starving -- though we all think we know what starving feels like.

Hunger is a hardwired early-warning system. At first, your brain says, "Think about eating something soon." In the later stages it says, "Eat as soon as you can; make eating a priority." At no point does your brain say, "Eat now or you will do permanent damage," though at times it may feel as if that is true. But "Eat when hungry" has become a habit. We get hungry. We eat. We get hungry again. We eat again. And so on.

I'm not saying, "Don't eat when you're hungry." I'm saying that if losing or maintaining weight is important to you, think twice before you eat from simple hunger, or from other reasons, like emotion. And when you do eat, choose a piece of fruit; a carrot; a handful of nuts. If you're still hungry, have more. And more. Eat a pint of blueberries, or cherry tomatoes; have a mango, a banana, and an apple. Have a lightly dressed salad. You would be hard-pressed to gain weight eating this way.

You can also embrace hunger, strange as that may sound, just as you might embrace the delicious anticipation of a nap, or sexual craving. Your hunger will, after all, be satisfied; why not wait an hour? (You're not dying, after all!) You might also stop eating before you're full (three-quarters full is probably about right). And if you eat slowly, taking your time, you'll give the food time to reach your stomach and give you a sense of satisfaction before you have seconds or thirds.

You can also embrace hunger, strange as that may sound, just as you might embrace the delicious anticipation of a nap, or sexual craving. Your hunger will, after all, be satisfied. Why not wait an hour? (You're not dying, after all!) You might also stop eating before you're full (three-quarters full is probably about right). And if you eat slowly, taking your time, you'll give the food time to reach your stomach and give you a sense of satisfaction before you have seconds or thirds.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:29 am

I find my tolerance for real hunger varies. If I'm out clothes shopping, I can eat dinner a couple of hours late. If I got legitimately hungry at 3 p.m., I think I'd have a hard time waiting until 6 without a coffee and milk or something like that. Sometimes real hunger goes away and sometimes it doesn't. But the feeling people often get is just a desire to eat, which is a whole other animal, and best ignored.

One of the reasons No S is a jewel.

MerryKat · Post by **MerryKat** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:29 pm

I voted Vanilla - I find the moment I give permission for a mod it gives my brain permission to start making (or trying to talk me into) other 'little' mods. Eventually there are more mods than No S and bang I am back to square one and my old bad eating!!!!!!!!!!!!

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:00 pm

oolala53 wrote:The only "mod" I might second is whether you're getting reasonably legitimately hungry for your meals. If you read the book, it's implied that you will experience hunger. It may be hard to gauge, but about an hour of hunger for a couple of meals a day I say is reasonable to tolerate.

I have noticed that my weight gets more stable if I let myself get hungry enough for my stomach to growl before a meal at least once a day. If not, it feels as if I've not burned off everything I ate from the day before. I don't always follow this idea but it helps to keep my portions on the right track if I've gone awry.

wosnes wrote:You don't need to resort to snacking simply because you're hungry. Being hungry doesn't mean you have to eat. Though we've been trained to act as if it is, hunger is NOT an emergency. I've found that I can feel hungry, but usually in a few minutes that feeling passes.

IMO this attitude is largely due to the homespun wisdom that your metabolism is slowing down if you feel hungry. Gotta keep "stoking that fire" or you become obese.

MerryKat wrote:I voted Vanilla - I find the moment I give permission for a mod it gives my brain permission to start making (or trying to talk me into) other 'little' mods. Eventually there are more mods than No S and bang I am back to square one and my old bad eating!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, exactly. Once you make mods, you start making more excuses, and whatever you're doing is no longer No S but going back to diethead.

Ruff · Post by **Ruff** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:26 pm

I second wosnos on the hunger thing.

Sometimes I have been running and I am soooooo hungry I want to try eating pieces of car bumper! But maybe I have nothing with me, so I have to wait until I get home, then have a shower etc etc. I am still here!

Actually I LOVE being hungry now. I used to snack all the time when cooking the evening meal, and when it was ready I ate it (of course) but I didn't relish it. Now I relish absolutely everything I eat. And if I am not relishing it I stop eating it! I love being hungry whilst I prepare food, and then I love satisfying that hunger when I eat the meal. Yum!

As to mods, I also think 10 weeks is too soon. Once you get over the realisation you can actually eat anything you want...even if you have to wait until Saturday to do it, you get over yourself a bit.

I changed totally what I eat. I try to think of myself as an athlete now ( a girl can dream...) and I try to say to myself...will this help my running? Ok I do indulge in chocolate cake on a Saturday morning after a long trail run now and again, but on the whole I don't bother any more.

Good luck, keep going, have fun!

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:09 am

Something we often note about hunger: it can help to think of it, instead, as "having an appetite". This is something people used to do, between meals. They'd work up an appetite for the next one. Looking forward (even keenly) to your next meal is definitely not an emergency.

vmsurbat · Post by **vmsurbat** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:36 am

DaveMc wrote:Looking forward (even keenly) to your next meal is definitely not an emergency.

And, in fact, can be quite satisfying, even enjoyable, with the right mindset!

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:51 am

leafy_greens wrote:
wosnes wrote:You don't need to resort to snacking simply because you're hungry. Being hungry doesn't mean you have to eat. Though we've been trained to act as if it is, hunger is NOT an emergency. I've found that I can feel hungry, but usually in a few minutes that feeling passes.
IMO this attitude is largely due to the homespun wisdom that your metabolism is slowing down if you feel hungry. Gotta keep "stoking that fire" or you become obese.

I think it only works with fire, not human metabolism!

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:28 pm

I don't think the wisdom was homespun. The homespun advice would have likely been, "Don't eat that; it will ruin your appetite!" But, leafy, you're right that the attitude was pushed on us-from myopic views, IMO. "Let's look at this reaction out of context," i.e., the ability of people to have access to the perfect fire stoker-definitely not Doritos- at all times of the day. If all we could get between meals was freggies, it wouldn't be a problem, most likely. Good luck to 7-Eleven staying in business selling carrot sticks.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:52 pm

I agree that the message to "keep stoking the fire" isn't homespun wisdom. It's a health claim and I'm not sure who put it out there first.

I was looking for something else today and found this:

â€œThe real reason for health claims is well established: health claims sell food products. Marion Nestle

leafy_greens · Post by **leafy_greens** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:26 pm

oolala53 wrote:I don't think the wisdom was homespun. The homespun advice would have likely been, "Don't eat that; it will ruin your appetite!" But, leafy, you're right that the attitude was pushed on us-from myopic views, IMO. "Let's look at this reaction out of context," i.e., the ability of people to have access to the perfect fire stoker-definitely not Doritos- at all times of the day. If all we could get between meals was freggies, it wouldn't be a problem, most likely. Good luck to 7-Eleven staying in business selling carrot sticks.

Yes, whatever happened to the old saying about not eating between meals or you will ruin your appetite? Eating between meals has ruined the appetite to where we no longer have a taste for anything and have to graze all day to fill that void.

Christine · Post by **Christine** » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:29 pm

Just chiming in to say that LaurenExists, you have a lot of the same concerns that I do, after having only done this for about two weeks. Good on you for sticking it out for 10 weeks so far! Thanks to all the folks who replied, it's helping me, and hopefully lots of other people, as well!

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:14 am

Hi all!

vmsurbat, oolala53, wosnes, MerryKat, leafy_greens, Ruff, DaveMc, Christine, thank you SO much for your thoughts and input. Work got a little crazy and I neglected to check on this thread -- just read through everything now and am enjoying all the great feedback and advice.

An update for anyone interested. 20 weeks now with no red days and I just weighed in... Sad to report that I have *gained* 7 pounds since I started, and clothing is feeling tighter (that is to say: I don't think the scale gain is due to a redistribution of fat/muscle or something). Plus I can see the gain in my face a bit. Bummer.

A little discouraged -- I truly am not cheating at all on the days that I've counted as green. No "virtual plating" or anything iffy. And I haven't counted any weekdays as S days, so I'm not going overboard there. S days have been strictly weekend; I found it pretty easy to dodge sweets and snacks when parties/events happened to fall on a weekday.

Anyway, the wonderful sense of sanity I've felt about food since starting is a benefit that I don't want to give up! I think I've just been too sedentary, and my plates are too large for this to work for me. Going to go out and buy something smaller than a regular dinner plate and keep trying! Also have some plans for adding in a lot more exercise, so that should help reverse this trend too.

I'm such a fan of the NoS philosophy -- wish me luck in this renewed attempt.

vmsurbat · Post by **vmsurbat** » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:09 am

LaurenExists wrote:Hi all!
Anyway, the wonderful sense of sanity I've felt about food since starting is a benefit that I don't want to give up! I think I've just been too sedentary, and my plates are too large for this to work for me. Going to go out and buy something smaller than a regular dinner plate and keep trying! Also have some plans for adding in a lot more exercise, so that should help reverse this trend too.

I'm such a fan of the NoS philosophy -- wish me luck in this renewed attempt.

Good Luck!

And you are in a much better place now than you were before attempting NoS--you have found "food sanity" and can now work within that framework to (slowly) get to the right balance of food, taste, and nutrition for a healthy, sustainable weight.

I think your idea of a smaller (even if just by a bit) plate is a good one. I like to fill my plates up--no 10-12 inch plates and leaving three inches blank all around for me--so I've had to use slightly smaller plates than the rest of the family. I find a smaller plate well-filled more satisfying than a larger plate scantily filled--even if it is the exact same amount of food.

Keep checking in. We're rooting for you!

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:16 pm

That is rather tough news. I'm glad you're feeling saner and more determined. Trying a plate size change is a good mod. And there are others that aren't too painful, either. No need to inundate you until needed. You can try them a month at a time.

jellybeans01 · Post by **jellybeans01** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:23 am

weigh yourself, you need to know if you are gaining because then you need to make a few changes or maybe just one change.

lpearlmom · Post by **lpearlmom** » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:34 am

Pretty much everything has been said but did want to ask if you were coming off of a more restrictive diet when you started NoS? It could just be he backlash of weight lost too quickly if so.

AndreaRN9 · Post by **AndreaRN9** » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:58 am

Perhaps a portion control plate would help:

The reality is there's a wide range of calories that can fit on one plate. If a plate is full of calorie-dense food, even if you're only eating 3 meals a day and not snacking, you can still gain weight.

Here's how I tackle that problem: Every night for dinner, half my plate consists of vegetables (including a salad! I stopped eating my salad on a separate plate). It cuts down on the space available for the more caloric stuff.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:31 pm

I use the food proportions for most meals except breakfast, which is small. But I do trade a bit of starch and veggie for fruit often, as well.

You can work up to this!

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:32 pm

Do you eat a lot of junk food/fast food/ processed food?

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:26 pm

Well, got some new smaller plates! Also have started walking more and am doing some good cardio+strength stuff about 4x/wk. Already feeling stronger from that. Looking forward to weighing in again -- maybe in a few weeks. (Used to weigh in every day! Not fun for me, but maybe helps keep me in check, I'm not sure.)

@vmsurbat, @oolala53 Thanks guys! You said "And there are others that aren't too painful, either." I might come back to you and ask about this! Will start with plate size though. :)

@Lpearlmom That's a good question re: coming off of a stricter diet! No -- the months/weeks preceding NoS were bad, foodwise! NoS was a response to feeling out of control/having no plan at all. Hm.

@AndreaRN9 Yes I've been trying to cram more veggies in! Very good idea to make sure veg takes up a full half of the plate at dinner. I think I would feel like a toddler if I used a "portion control plate" but I can see how it would be useful.

@joasia I do eat fast food on S Days sometimes (like, junk at the ballpark or a burger out somewhere). Otherwise I don't lean toward processed junk. We do get pizza sometimes. One interesting thing about NoS: I wonder if the benefits kick in faster for those who are into sweets (not me). In that case, cutting sugar would represent a significant change to their routine. But I wasn't that into sugary stuff before; my problem is with portions and salty/fatty stuff. So it's taking me longer to see results.

Though I know intellectually that there's no way I'm going to even come close to starving on NoS, I still can't help feeling very worried about being hungry between plates! I'm getting better about this, but slowly. Someone pointed out earlier that being hungry for meals was what we used to call "working up an appetite" (a good thing!) and I totally agree. I don't know what the deal is with this irrational anxiety about "getting enough." It's a strong feeling that I have to really work on suppressing with reminding myself of what I know to be true. (That in fact I DO get enough, obviously, and by having eaten more than enough for so long, I've been systematically destroying my body!) Arg!

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:10 am

Remember that you can drink beverages between meals, if necessary. The hungrier you are, the more substantial they can be, with milk being the most satiating.

What's the longest break between meals for you?

LaurenExists · Post by **LaurenExists** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:18 am

oolala53 wrote:What's the longest break between meals for you?

Well, I used to be REALLY bad about sleep -- getting caught up in work and not going to bed until 3am was pretty common. So if I had dinner around 7 or 8, it might mean 8+ hours between food and sleep. In the past, if I had a really important deadline, I would grab a late snack at some point for a pick me up!

So, NoS has really helped to regulate this bad habit. Knowing that there will be no more eating after dinner makes me less tempted to keep pushing on projects until the wee hours... So now it's only about 5-6 hours between meals.

Post by **reinhard** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:05 pm

Glad to hear no-s is helping with sleep -- that's another routine people need to respect more. And as you point out, they're not entirely unrelated. One thing that has helped me in that regard (besides the 5 am wakeup call from our baby boy) is the knowledge that I'm so inefficient when I'm overtired, that getting another hour or so of sleep will more than pay for itself in increased productivity the next day. A well-rested and alert hour is worth at least 2 overtired ones in my experience.

Reinhard

Everyday Systems

10 weeks in + getting nervous

To mod or not to mod?

10 weeks in + getting nervous

An Update

Re: An Update