Does raw vegetable count as a snack?

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May
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Does raw vegetable count as a snack?

Post by May » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:57 pm

Hi. I'm new to NoS. Had 3 days of success but today at 4:30pm I had some slices of cucumbers and bell peppers and 1/2 cup of milk. Would that count as a snack? I don't have dinner until 7pm and felt so hungry around 4-5pm.

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Post by wosnes » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:12 pm

The milk is okay, but the cucumbers and peppers count as a snack.

A quick rule of thumb is that if you chew it, it's a snack. Milk, coffee, tea, juices and any other beverage that's not overly sweet is okay between meals. Smoothies generally aren't okay because they include chewable foods that are blended.
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:21 pm

if you really need some food in the mid afternoon, like that little veggie snack and milk, then have it... just don't randomly snack all day... many people include a very small fourth meal, instead of having three... the key is not to graze and mindlessly snack whenever you have the impulse to...
good luck and congrats on your good start! :)
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Post by May » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:29 am

Thanks for clarifying! I'll try to deal without the mid-afternoon snack but if I am really desperate, I will stick to milk.

When I first came across NoS, I saw a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. Finally, a way to live with less stress and frustration. I had been yo-yo dieting for over 2 decades. Tried everything from liquid diet to Nutri-System to Atkins to diet pills (even things like patches, acupuncture, etc). Even if the diet worked, the weight would eventually come back.

After reading the discussion board here, I am really motivated to follow NoS. I hope this way of eating will help me stop obsessing about food.

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Post by oolala53 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:40 pm

I second your sticking to milk. Chewing the right thing one day can so often lead to chewing the wrong things on another.

It's okay to play with meal times, if that's an option. I have a meal time window. It's worked for 42 months.
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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Yes, it does. The problem is not the calories in the raw vegetables themselves, but the reinforcement of the habit of snacking. The idea is that you will get used to not eating at all between meals. That won't happen in you're eating raw vegetables between meals.

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Post by oolala53 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:42 pm

It also invites people to choose a higher proportion of high- density foods at their meals because they figure that they've already had a serving of veggie. Same goes for fruit.
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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:36 pm

There are quite a few pitfalls you can get into when you start allowing certain kinds of snacks and not others.

One is that the change from "no snacks" to "only healthy snacks" is a bigger jump than "only healthy snacks" to "any snacks". What happens if you're allowing yourself healthy snacks (define that any way you like), you get hungry, and you're somewhere where the only snack options are from a vending machine? You might justify to yourself eating snacks from the vending machine. If you were avoiding all snacks, this situation wouldn't come up.

There's also the "health halo" problem- some snacks sound healthier than others, even though they might not actually be healthier or have fewer calories. People tend to think that a meal they ate at Subway had fewer calories than it actually did, because Subway has a fairly healthy reputation for fast food. Or you might think you ate healthy at CPK because you had a salad rather than a couple of slices of pizza, even though the salad had more calories than the pizza would have.

When you start allowing exceptions like this, you make No S more complicated than it needs to be. That means you have to think about what you're going to eat more often. I think part of the beauty of No S is that you don't need to think about what you're eating all the time. You make food decisions three times a day on N days, once at each meal. The rest of the day, you're free to not make any decisions about food. If it's not meal time, you don't have to think about things like "is this healthy" or "can I eat this", because it doesn't matter, you can't eat now whether whatever it is is healthy or not.

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Post by oolala53 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:02 pm

Amen.
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Post by May » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:35 pm

I think that is what happened to me in the past. At first, it would be just raw veggies for snack, very healthy. Then, I would add some yogurt, maybe some dried fruit. If I have nuts in the house, I would add that too. Then it would be difficult to stop :oops:

Today at 5pm, I was hungry again but I drank some milk to tie me over until dinner. However, I think my portion for dinner was too big. Really need to work on that. Any suggestions?

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Post by Dale » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Portion sizes - what worked for me to start with was to actually have large-ish portions, just to get into the habit of three meals. Then I didn't worry so much about being hungry between meals. Of course, I did have to cut down the portions later, but I found it easiest to get the habit first.

I cook for myself and my son, and usually for our evening meal I'll do something like this: I cook enough food for a little less than two normal-sized portions, but then I divide the bulk of it into three. Usually I will have 1/3 of the main dish, and my son will have 2/3 (he needs a bigger than average portion). For things like veg and salad, it's roughly the other way round - I'll have the big portion and my son will have the small portion. I'd like him to have as much as me, but he's not so keen on vegetables and I'd rather he had some than none!

With dishes like curries, pasta, etc., this works beautifully. It's a bit less neat with cuts of meat, when I have to cut off some of my steak, chicken, etc. to put on his plate. But it's a simple, rule-of-thumb method for me.

(Disclaimer: I also calorie count most of the time, which makes it easier for me to judge portion size).

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Post by oolala53 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:51 pm

Annie, I gently suggest it's too soon to start micromanaging. You're not even a week in! Get the habit down. With all due respect, look at it as a way to negotiate our food rich culture rather than as a way to "get the weight off" right away and then live thin forever. From what I can glean, people who lost weight soon actually WEREN'T trying to eat the perfect meals right off the bat. They sort of lucked out, as Reinhard admits he did.

See if you can EVENTUALLY make structure + hunger + satiety become your guide, but only after the "fasting" between meals has a chance to affect your chemistry. If these have never been your touchstones, give yourself a few months. IN the book, Reinhard refers to HUNDREDS of meals balancing each other out.

You're entering a new country here. You're going to live here, so you don't have to try to see all the sights in a few days...:)
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
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9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
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Post by May » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:23 pm

Thank you for the suggestions. I read your reply several times. It is almost like you knew what I was thinking. I was getting a bit impatient. I will first tackle the N days to make sure I get it down firmly. In fact today I was close to eating sweets and snacks after dinner but stopped myself. I had sweet and sour pork for dinner and afterwards I start to crave sweets...so I was searching the kitchen for something more appealing. But I hung on and just had some tea.

I like this country and the people living here too :wink:

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Post by oolala53 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 am

Good job! Getting over the idea that cravings and urges have to be obeyed is a big part of retraining your appetite. They are not to be believed or rewarded.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
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9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:39 pm

oolala53 wrote:Good job! Getting over the idea that cravings and urges have to be obeyed is a big part of retraining your appetite. They are not to be believed or rewarded.
Cravings are thoughts. That's all they are. They are not (at least in most cases) a sign of some sort of nutritional deficiency. In the cases where they are a sign of a nutritional deficiency, eating what you are craving isn't necessarily going to help (for example, people with iron deficiency anemia sometimes crave ice, which doesn't contain iron). If people really did crave things because their bodies needed some nutrient, people wouldn't crave things like chips and candy. Not eating what you're craving isn't going to harm you in some way. It also isn't true that the craving wont go away until you satisfy it. Cravings are thoughts and, like all thoughts, will eventually go away even if you don't do anything about them.

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Post by oolala53 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:30 pm

Right on, Sistah!

"It also isn't true that the craving wont go away until you satisfy it." In fact, the likelihood that the craving WILL go away if you give in to it is equally mythic, in my experience, at least in the case of the binge foods that I "craved." I still eat binge foods, but hardly ever when I'm actively craving them. I have them at other times, when they fit in with the rest of my food and life, not because of a whim.
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2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

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Post by May » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:23 am

Thanks for the encouragement. I will work on ignoring my cravings.

I noticed in the past that if I am craving something sweet and I eat a regular meal (e.g. rice and vegetables), even if I have a big portion, it still doesn't satisfy. How do you deal with this? My appetite really needs to be re-trained...

Also, another question...does peanut butter and jam toast count as a sweet? I had it for breakfast.

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Post by wosnes » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:29 am

Annie wrote: Also, another question...does peanut butter and jam toast count as a sweet? I had it for breakfast.
It doesn't for me. However, you have to look at how much you're using. If you use a lot, a tablespoon or more per slice of toast, it could be considered a sweet. If you use less than that, it's not a problem.

It's one of those areas where a little is okay, but a lot is not.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by oolala53 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Toast and jam for breakfast- okay. Re=evaluate in 6 months.

How to deal with a craving that doesn't go away after dinner- live with it. So what? A craving is not an emergency nor a sign of anything important except that you've made a habit of giving your body something it doesn't really need all the time. The thing that makes cravings worse is telling yourself that it's terrible to have cravings and that you shouldn't have to put up with them. But in the grand scheme of things, you can just as easily interpret them as unpleasant and annoying, but certainly not insufferable.

YOU tell your body when it gets sweets or extra food, and that is on weekends, in the time and amount that works for your total life, not on a whim and not just because you get an urge. Urges/cravings are no longer legitimate reasons to eat. They are legitimate reasons to do something else while you wait to eat.
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Post by Blithe Morning » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:38 pm

Self control is part of ignoring cravings.

I am reposting a summary from Conclusion: The Future of Willpower – More Gain, Less Strain (As Long as You Don’t Procrastinate) I posted here in 2012.

You only have one source of self-control. Everything that requires will power -from making decisions to biting your tongue to your obnoxious co-worker - draws on this one source. Your ability to self-regulate can get depleted.

Low levels of blood glucose have been correlated with depleted levels of self-control. A beverage will help restore levels (like milk). So will eating healthy meals.

Even more important than food is rest. Be sure to get regular and plentiful rest to replenish your self-regulation.

It is not always easy to tell when your self-regulation levels are being depleted. The best sign is that you feel things more strongly than you otherwise would. When you get to this point understand that your ability to self-regulate is endangered.

For these reasons, self-control is best expended to “play offense†rather than rescue you from emergencies.

Playing offense includes regular planning at an appropriate scale. Set broad long range goals and more specific intermediate goals (i.e. monthly) but be aware of the planning fallacy which is overestimating your abilities as well the lack of obstacles and challenges in doing a task. Daily planning should be very, very clear and specific to tell yourself EXACTLY what you should do.

Playing offense also means keeping on top of the daily basics of life such as being tidy and reasonably organized. Research showed the people were able to self regulate longer on a tidy desk than a messy one. Allow yourself enough time to do these maintenance tasks but not too much as they will expand to fill the time allotted to them.

Playing offense means setting aside time to work on one thing at a time. Even if the one thing is not going particularly well don’t hop to something else till your predetermined time is up. This helps establish the “If X then Y†strategy in your life – if I want to do this, then I must do that (if I want to eat sweets, then I will eat them on S days; If I want to buy clothes, then I will pay cash; if I want to drink wine, then I will only have two glasses.) Etc.

Other core ideas in playing offense are:

Bright lines – clear, unambiguous rules, a law term apparently – make self-regulation easier.

Keep track. Research shows self-monitoring is an important part of successful self-regulation. It eliminates mountaintop elation/valley of despair thinking by providing objective assessments of your accomplishments.

And finally, reward yourself. Trophies for genuine accomplishments are fine. A reward can add a sense of accomplishment to dreary tasks.

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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:26 pm

The fact that you're having cravings does not mean you're doing something wrong. It just means you're a human trying to adjust to a new routine.

You don't need something sweet. Sugar is not an essential nutrient. You want it, probably because you are used to ending meals with dessert. Or maybe it's just that humans are hardwired to like sweets. Maybe this has something to do with the fact that human breast milk is sweet. But none of that means you need sweets now.

One thing I found helpful in dealing with cravings was to tell myself "not now" instead of "no". You can't have the chocolate you're craving now, but when the next S day comes, you can have it. Then actually have it if you still want it on the next S day.

You do have one pool of willpower. But it is like a muscle- exercise it, and you will gradually get more willpower. But "gradually" is a key word there. It won't happen instantly.

Sorry if I'm totally incoherent- Nicest Baby woke me up for a while last night, and I'm short on sleep.

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Post by oolala53 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:35 pm

Nicest, I'm glad you reminded me that getting cravings is not a sign of doing something wrong. There are so many programs that seem to promise that if you just do this, the cravings will go away. We don't count on that here. Then we're set for both possibilities. Cravings decrease; we win. Cravings don't decrease; we still win because they aren't in charge anymore. Waiting to eat delicious meals three times a day is worth experiencing cravings at some times, IMHO.
Last edited by oolala53 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:42 pm

To use the language of parenting, a craving is a want, not a need. Like any other want, you have to decide if it is a good idea to fulfill it, and, if so, when and how to fulfill it. Wanting stuff is a normal part of being human. Not always getting what you want when you want it is, too, as all parents have to teach their children.

My theory as to why we get cravings is that thinking about food all the time was once a very useful adaptation. Imagine that you live as most humans have for most of history, in an environment where there sometimes isn't enough to eat, and there usually isn't way too much to eat. Obviously, it would be to your advantage to put on weight when there is extra food available, just like it would be to your advantage to make extra money when you can if you don't have a steady income. The people who think about food all the time are going to be better at putting on weight in good times, and probably better at finding what food there is in bad times. They're obviously going to have a survival advantage over the ones who think about food less.

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Post by finallyfull » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:16 pm

I bet craving is used much more in the modern day to elevate the idea of wanting whatever I want right now to something more important. I'm guessing it was borrowed and expanded from the realm of pregnancy cravings. I hear people all the time talk about their cravings as if they meant their bodies needed something. It's like we, as a culture, have agreed to pretend that this baloney is some real, important thing that our bodies need.

I have found after nearly seven months that I went from wanting snacks regularly (most afternoons and evenings) to far, far, far less often. I still sometimes want what I see someone else eating, but my brain generates far fewer "cravings" than it used to, I think from regularly eating good meals and developing a new habit.

I think of "cravings" (i.e. random desires from something that puts random fat on me) as stray cats. If you feed them, they keep coming back. If you stop, they get more persistent, not less. But, if you hold your ground and suffer through some days or weeks of meowing, they will go away. Then when new stray cats come around, you don't stress out about it, because you now know their game. Just don't feed them. They will go away and put fat on somebody else's middle.

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Post by May » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:08 pm

Haha :D

Craving as stray cats. I will remember that.

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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:19 pm

finallyfull wrote:I bet craving is used much more in the modern day to elevate the idea of wanting whatever I want right now to something more important. I'm guessing it was borrowed and expanded from the realm of pregnancy cravings. I hear people all the time talk about their cravings as if they meant their bodies needed something. It's like we, as a culture, have agreed to pretend that this baloney is some real, important thing that our bodies need.
And I wonder about the role of food manufacturing companies in arriving at this cultural agreement. They have something to gain from people thinking that a desire for food is something that needs to be satisfied right now, especially if that desire is for one of their products (which, of course, is something that can be arranged via advertising).

Part of it, too, is that there's just so much food around. I imagine Eskimos spend a lot of time thinking about snow, too, for similar reasons. And there are, at least as far as I know, no large multinational corporations trying to sell snow to Eskimos. There's also the fact that all animals, including humans, are hardwired to seek out food.

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Post by finallyfull » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:11 pm

Biologically we seek food. But calling desire a "craving" somehow seems to give it a special place of honor. For me, the cultural acceptance of the words "hungry" and "craving" to describe between meal desire give camouflage to the enemy. (the enemy? those darn cats)

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Post by leafy_greens » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:00 pm

Nicest of the Damned wrote:Not eating what you're craving isn't going to harm you in some way. It also isn't true that the craving wont go away until you satisfy it. Cravings are thoughts and, like all thoughts, will eventually go away even if you don't do anything about them.
What do you think about the typical diet advice, "You have to indulge your sweet tooth or you will go overboard, so have a square of dark chocolate." Personally, I will go overboard if I have the square of dark chocolate, which turns into three squares, then the whole bar...
oolala53 wrote:Getting over the idea that cravings and urges have to be obeyed is a big part of retraining your appetite. They are not to be believed or rewarded.
This sounds like a horror movie. Even more reason not to give into "them." :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
"No S IS hard... It just turns out that everything else is harder." -oolala53

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Post by leafy_greens » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:13 pm

Annie wrote:I noticed in the past that if I am craving something sweet and I eat a regular meal (e.g. rice and vegetables), even if I have a big portion, it still doesn't satisfy. How do you deal with this? My appetite really needs to be re-trained...

Also, another question...does peanut butter and jam toast count as a sweet? I had it for breakfast.
I have this problem, majorly. It takes an incredible amount of willpower to not eat after a meal. You have to flex that willpower muscle repeatedly, until it becomes habit. I'm still not there totally.

Peanut butter is not a sweet. I have it almost everyday. A peanut butter sandwich on wheat bread is my breakfast on days I have to eat in the car. I will supplement my cereal breakfast with a spoon of PB if I don't think there was enough fat in the meal.
"No S IS hard... It just turns out that everything else is harder." -oolala53

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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:22 pm

leafy_greens wrote:
Nicest of the Damned wrote:Not eating what you're craving isn't going to harm you in some way. It also isn't true that the craving wont go away until you satisfy it. Cravings are thoughts and, like all thoughts, will eventually go away even if you don't do anything about them.
What do you think about the typical diet advice, "You have to indulge your sweet tooth or you will go overboard, so have a square of dark chocolate."
That's what S days are for.

You have to strike a balance between never letting yourself have sweets (which would be hard to stick to, unless you don't like sweets, in which case it would be pointless) and letting yourself indulge all the time (in which case you wouldn't lose any weight). I've found No S helps me get the middle ground pretty well, while still providing a bright-line rule that says clearly what is permitted and what isn't.

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Post by leafy_greens » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:25 pm

Yes, I agree. What if I said to Diet Person, "I want a square of dark chocolate every hour, or I may over-indulge." They would say no that's not allowed.
"No S IS hard... It just turns out that everything else is harder." -oolala53

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Post by Nicest of the Damned » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:47 am

leafy_greens wrote:Peanut butter is not a sweet. I have it almost everyday.
Especially not natural peanut butter. The only ingredients are peanuts and salt- not even any sugar there. I wouldn't consider even regular peanut butter a sweet, though. Fun fact: in Australia they think of peanut butter as savory, so much so that the idea of peanut butter & chocolate grosses out many Australians. I didn't have any peanut butter when I went to Australia, so I don't know if their peanut butter is the same as ours.

Do make sure your peanut butter doesn't have hydrogenated oils in it. Those aren't good for you, and it is easy enough to find peanut butter that doesn't have them in most supermarkets.

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Post by oolala53 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:54 am

Indonesians and Thais use peanuts in savory sauces. So do Africans. African ground nut soup! Awesome.
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Failure right after breakfast

Post by May » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:56 am

Wasn't satisfied even after breakfast so had a second. Then, thought might as well... so I had some dark chocolate as well. Hope I can stop the what-the-hell effect :(

I used to buy peanut butter, but later found myself eating too much of it. I could eat 1/2 a bottle at one sitting! So I stop buying. I even tried to avoid almond butter in case I would overdose (OD) on that as well. I only order PB & J when I eat out.

I think I know why I slipped this morning. When I stepped on the scale, I noticed the number increased. I was hoping that after following NoS for 2 weeks that there would be some drop. Before NoS, I ate very little carbs, now I have some carbs with every meal. Is that why my weight increased? Should I also limit my carbs in addition to NoS in order to see results?

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Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 am
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Post by oolala53 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:08 am

I've read that the body retains more water with carbs because it's tied up with the molecules, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's necessary for processing them.

It's been only two weeks! Unless you are excited about the prospect of eating low carb forever, don't start.

No S is about retraining your appetite. That doesn't happen that fast. There are a certain number of members here who had quick results, but many who didn't. Try to stay off the scale. Trying to eat for the scale is counterproductive to becoming sensitive to appetite. It's what messes most people up.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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