cultural change

[finallyfull]

I have been reading and/or posting to this site for several years, and feeling a little weird about it all along, because I feel strongly that I want to focus my life on deeper things than eating and weight.

BUT! Today I realize that it's because on here, many people seem to understand and embrace the idea that something in our culture is broken, and that we need a return to sanity. When I mention No S principles, I am very quickly shut-down by what I will call the upside-down culture. It's discouraging, but then I come on to these boards, and even the newbies are at least open to learning, and the old-timers get it! It feels like a pool of sanity itself -- people who are not brainwashed into our very weird "eat when you feel like it, whatever food you feel like, tons of sugar, and obsess constantly about being thin" society.

It sounds Orwellian, but rules ARE freedom. It's freedom from any food rules or cultural traditions that is imprisoning 1/3 of this country in its own flesh. Boy I hope more people notice and catch on to the moderation revolution. I'm doing my part one plate at a time.

[jw]

"Rules are freedom" -- I had a similar epiphany yesterday, finallyfull. I have been reading the forums and posting and filling in the habitcal, all with the consciousness that I really don't WANT food to be so central to my thoughts. Yesterday, due to a completely disrupted schedule that put work responsibilities smack in the middle of meal times, I had my first real strong temptation to snack, maybe even binge. And what saved me? the thought of my green habitcal and only two days to go until I hit 21 days!

I realized that once the habit is ingrained, I won't need to post or do e-calendars or anything. But the habit is not yet strong enough to jettison all the support! And the support is necessary in a crazy world where work displaces food!

[Broca]

Finallyfull, that was the same feeling I had when the trainer at the gym told me to eat six meals a day and I just shook my head and said I won't do it! Something IS broken, and while we are still focusing on food here trying to get a handle on things, this is NOTHING compared to the skewed perception society has developed regarding food and eating. It's nice to come here and know there are some folks who get it!

[oolala53]

I sometimes regret how much time I still spend on this, but it is an area in which so many people suffer, and I just haven't found a replacement as compelling! (One of the reasons I let myself off the hook is that a career aptitude counselor on the basis of some tests told me to find an area of intense interest and pursue it. I realized after the fact that this was it, at least for now. I'm just at an age and income at which I just can't justify spending thousands of dollars getting education to permit me to charge money for something that Reinhard has basically offered for free.)

Geneen Roth said later in her career that when she discovered her key to freedom from dieting and weight obsession and shared it with others, she thought the problem would fade away and the world could move on to other, more important issues. But then she saw that it didn't go away, and this food issue seemed pivotal, so she pretty much devoted her life to it. And her program is right up her alley.

I still hold out the possibility that I can follow in the leader's footsteps and expand my life in ways beyond this, but in the meantime, supporting others and being supported in sanity is a worthy hobby for me.

[Christine]

Well said, oolala!!! And you *do* give great advice and encouragement for all of us, thank you!!!

[BrightAngel]

in the meantime, supporting others and being supported in sanity is a worthy hobby for me.

I've often stated that my own path to success
has been to make dealing with my own personal need to "Diet"
in order to achieve and maintain a reasonable body size
into an enjoyable Hobby.

I use the term "Diet" to involve everything surrounding and touching on body size,
which involves many many issues...
...including the various manners, types, and amounts of food intake,
various exercises, and the cultural, physiological, and psychological matters involved.
FIRST for me, personally, and then in support of others.

Most of you know that this is reflected in my blog "DietHobby"
which I maintain totally ad-free.

[noni]

To those who have been on these boards quite a while, sharing their advice, experiences and encouragement...We don't say it often enough....Thank you! We do appreciate you!!

[jw]

Ditto, Noni! It is very inspiring to read the insights of long-term successful No-S-ers -- this board would not be the same without your experience and kind interest in those of us who are taking our first steps!

[El Fug]

I have been reading and/or posting to this site for several years, and feeling a little weird about it all along, because I feel strongly that I want to focus my life on deeper things than eating and weight.

The beauty of No S lies in its elegant simplicity. You should have time to focus on deeper things, unless nutrition/health is what floats your boat. I've been doing the No S on and off for a few years now, just recently started looking at the forum, and I'm struck by how many people want to overcomplicate it and in essence turn it into the very thing for which it is an antidote -- you know, a "diet."

Don't snack. Don't eat sweets. Don't eat an Andre the Giant portion. But on weekends, do those things if you want to. That's it! All the other stuff is orthorexic baggage.

[oolala53]

Simple to say. In the right frame of mind, simple to do. Oh, that dang frame of mind.

[El Fug]

Simple to say. In the right frame of mind, simple to do. Oh, that dang frame of mind.

So true. But pretty much true for everything though, right?

[oolala53]

Yeah, I'm trying to work on that in those other areas, but failing at this moment because I'm here online! Uh-oh. I realized I need to have a daily limit. But which days? and what limit? yikes.

[Blithe Morning]

Well, ooh. There's always weekend Luddite. I forget the particulars but I think it was along the lines of not being online between breakfast and supper on weekends.

Or something like that.

[SuperMysteryCat]

I don't think it's unhealthy to come here and revel in the sanity. I, for one, spent years getting fatter whilst doing more and more extreme diets followed by more and more extreme falling off the wagon.

When I was on those diets, I was involved in several forums and listened to all the podcasts and read the blogs and newsletters. It's like you need to be deprogrammed after immersing yourself in that stuff. The low-carbers act like checking your blood ketone levels with a meter every day and making pie crust out of pork rinds is totally normal. The low-fatters brag about what asses they make of themselves in restaurants by interrogating the waiter at length over the issue of whether or not their dry potato has a millionth of a teaspoon of olive oil on the skin. It. Is. Crazy. Out. There.

It's so nice to enjoy eating again that I think it's natural to want to talk about it. I think perhaps this can only be understood completely by those who have spent time trying to bake without flour or fry stuff without oil.

[Broca]

You're absolutely right Supermysterycat!!

[finallyfull]

Yes -- exactly. It. Is. Crazy. Out. There.

That's more my point than the whole feeling weird about being on here and thinking about food. It's beyond that. The reason I'm drawn here is that it is such a relief to discuss the issue without having to "deprogram" a person first!

I know others will disagree, and of course life is full of shades of grey, but it sure seems to me like No S is an antidote to the Kool-Aid (which I recently learned was actually Flavor Aid, but I digress) and it's just plain refreshing to enjoy talking about this major pocket of insanity in our culture with those who have escaped the Matrix as well.

[Lady Crimson]

This statemenr reminds me of poetry class. The most popular form of poetry today remains the sonnet--one of the most restrictive forms. Why do poets write sonnets when they can write free verse? One of the reasons is the with free verse; the poet has to struggle with creating form as well as being creative (well good ports do).. The rigrid structure of the sonnets frees the poet to concentrate on all the other creative elements of expression.

So perhaps it is better to say, rules provide structure; structure supports freedom.

[wosnes]

This statemenr reminds me of poetry class. The most popular form of poetry today remains the sonnet--one of the most restrictive forms. Why do poets write sonnets when they can write free verse? One of the reasons is the with free verse; the poet has to struggle with creating form as well as being creative (well good ports do).. The rigrid structure of the sonnets frees the poet to concentrate on all the other creative elements of expression.

So perhaps it is better to say, rules provide structure; structure supports freedom.

What you said reminds me of this: "I learned in junior high school that poets choose to work in haiku and composers confine themselves to the sonata because constrictions force artists to be nimble and innovative." Devra Gartenstein in The Accidental Vegan.

[Blithe Morning]

Bake without flour? Fry without oil?

Oh my.

[oolala53]

Yes, I think in family therapy it might be called a double bind, and was indeed considered crazy-making.

[BrightAngel]

Bake without flour? Fry without oil?

Oh my.

Of course that is....
..............Bake without WHEAT and similiar Grain flours...
..............Fry without specific TYPES of manufactured oil...

This doesn't fit into the modern day US cultural food supply norm,
and therefore takes quite a lot more effort...
There are many "Ways of Eating" that don't fit into my personal lifestyle
...however...
I've seen a great many people who've achieved great personal success with this,..
AND... limiting oneself to these substances is NOT a violation of No S principles.
There are people who combine them with the No S Diet.

[SuperMysteryCat]

Of course that is....
..............Bake without WHEAT and similiar Grain flours...
..............Fry without specific TYPES of manufactured oil...

This doesn't fit into the modern day US cultural food supply norm,
and therefore takes quite a lot more effort...
There are many "Ways of Eating" that don't fit into my personal lifestyle
...however...
I've seen a great many people who've achieved great personal success with this,..
AND... limiting oneself to these substances is NOT a violation of No S principles.
There are people who combine them with the No S Diet.

I wasn't talking about avoiding gluten or certain oils. Low-carbers avoid all flours (except fake "flours" like ground up almonds or dried coconut powder) and the low-fat plant-based people avoid all added oils. They can give all kinds of advice about what kinds of cookware to get so that you can dry-fry your food, and they act like a little olive oil is tantamount to poison.

Check out some of the recipes on Low Carb Friends or Engine 2 or McDougall diet. It's not selective avoidance of certain varieties of flour or oil, it's total. And the food tastes awful.

[BrightAngel]

Low-carbers avoid all flours (except fake "flours" like ground up almonds or dried coconut powder) and the low-fat plant-based people avoid all added oils.

Check out some of the recipes on Low Carb Friends or Engine 2 or McDougall diet. It's not selective avoidance of certain varieties of flour or oil, it's total. And the food tastes awful.

Tastes Differ... There are many different, acceptable food choices which go well with the No S Diet.
I've communicated with quite a few No S members who also do Low-Carb.

I'm not a "low-carber", however, I have experimented with Low-carb eating
and am familiar with a great many low-carb recipes, some of which are on those websites.
I've found many of them to be quite tasty.
On the other hand, many "real-food" No S people commonly enjoy foods like Hummis and Kale,
while I find the taste and mouth-feel of both, personally disgusting

It is not a one-size-fits-all world.
The No S Diet is applicable for many different "Diets/Ways-of-Eating/Lifestyles",
and I believe in being supportive to all of them.
Just because a specific Way-of-Eating isn't for EVERYONE, doesn't mean it isn't for ANYONE.
Low-carb eating can be an excellent choice for some people.

[Nicest of the Damned]

One thing that was different about our food culture until quite recently is that food was more expensive. In the US, our level of food spending as a percentage of income is at historic lows. The cost of food used to limit consumption much more than it does now.

Another effect of this is on restaurant portion sizes. If food is cheap, it's easy for restaurants to offer more food for your money. Then you get used to eating more at a sitting.

When you get a real problem, though, is when food is cheap and abundant, but you treat it as scarce. If someone is giving away something that is expensive and scarce, you of course want to take advantage. But if you jump to take non-scarce things because someone is giving them away, you can end up like a hoarder with a house full of old magazines. Those of us who had relatives who lived through the Depression have seen this kind of thing.

[SuperMysteryCat]

... I'm not a "low-carber", however, I have experimented with Low-carb eating
and am familiar with a great many low-carb recipes, some of which are on those websites.
I've found many of them to be quite tasty...

*shivers* We'll just have to agree to disagree about that. I tried a bunch of low-carb (and low-fat) recipes, and there isn't one that I would want again if I weren't under duress. Ick. I want my bread and olive oil, preferably together.

Just because a specific Way-of-Eating isn't for EVERYONE, doesn't mean it isn't for ANYONE.
Low-carb eating can be an excellent choice for some people.

Well, obviously, but so many of the diet recipes try to mimic dishes that contain the forbidden macronutrient - and mimic them badly - that it appears that people on said diets do, in fact, badly miss the macronutrient they are trying to avoid. Hummus, whatever you think of it, is far better with olive oil in it, and bread-like substances that contain no carbs resemble bricks more than something appealing to make a sandwich with. I'm happy for people who can live without carbs or fat for longer than a few months (or days), but they are in the vast minority. Maybe happy is the wrong word. When I see what they are eating, my primary emotion is pity.

[wosnes]

... I'm not a "low-carber", however, I have experimented with Low-carb eating
and am familiar with a great many low-carb recipes, some of which are on those websites.
I've found many of them to be quite tasty...

*shivers* We'll just have to agree to disagree about that. I tried a bunch of low-carb (and low-fat) recipes, and there isn't one that I would want again if I weren't under duress. Ick. I want my bread and olive oil, preferably together.

Just because a specific Way-of-Eating isn't for EVERYONE, doesn't mean it isn't for ANYONE.
Low-carb eating can be an excellent choice for some people.

Well, obviously, but so many of the diet recipes try to mimic dishes that contain the forbidden macronutrient - and mimic them badly - that it appears that people on said diets do, in fact, badly miss the macronutrient they are trying to avoid. Hummus, whatever you think of it, is far better with olive oil in it, and bread-like substances that contain no carbs resemble bricks more than something appealing to make a sandwich with. I'm happy for people who can live without carbs or fat for longer than a few months (or days), but they are in the vast minority. Maybe happy is the wrong word. When I see what they are eating, my primary emotion is pity.

Some time ago Dorie Greenspan published a recipe for some little almond cakes that were naturally gluten free. One of the people who commented said that the best gluten-free recipes were those that were naturally gluten-free. I agree.

No matter what substance is being avoided, the best recipes are those that naturally avoid that substance. Everything else is a compromise and usually tastes like it.

I've found good low-fat, low-carb, gluten-free, meat, dairy, and egg-free recipes. They didn't need to be adapted because they were already free of those things.

[BrightAngel]

No matter what substance is being avoided, the best recipes are those that naturally avoid that substance.
Everything else is a compromise and usually tastes like it.

wosnes,
thank you for sharing a personal Opinion about Taste.
My Point is that EACH of us has very individual tastes,
based on the Cultures we were raised in,
or even Cultures (such as the low-carb culture) that some might choose to adopt.

The things people enjoy eating involve very personal choices.
Personal Tastes Differ.
I, personally, detest some of the "natural" foods that some others greatly enjoy,
and I suspect this is a commonality that is shared by most of us here.
We simply Do NOT all like exactly the same foods.

One of the things I like best here at No S, is the general attitude of Acceptance,
that is normally demonstrated here, despite our various individual taste differences.

[noni]

BrightAngel says:
"My Point is that EACH of us has very individual tastes,
and I suspect this is a commonality that is shared by most of us here.
We simply Do NOT all like exactly the same foods. "

I scratch my head at one of my sons who only will eat an apple now and then, and shuns all other fruit, fresh or in pies. All the rest of the family loves all kinds of fruit. If he didn't look like us I would wonder if he was switched at birth!

[SuperMysteryCat]

Some time ago Dorie Greenspan published a recipe for some little almond cakes that were naturally gluten free. One of the people who commented said that the best gluten-free recipes were those that were naturally gluten-free. I agree.

No matter what substance is being avoided, the best recipes are those that naturally avoid that substance. Everything else is a compromise and usually tastes like it.

I've found good low-fat, low-carb, gluten-free, meat, dairy, and egg-free recipes. They didn't need to be adapted because they were already free of those things.

I think this is the rub. It's the substitutions that spoil the party, and I would include cooking techniques in that (dry frying sucks). Probably why ___-free and low-___ packaged foods all taste horrible. I saw a presentation by a guy who used to work at Kraft. He said "Low Fat" translates to "We took out the fat and added water and HFCS" and "Low Carb" means "We replaced the sugar with maltitol and dumped in fake fiber in order to get the 'net carbs' down."

[Broca]

As I was walking through the grocery store yesterday picking up a few things for my work week I was suddenly struck by how much of the food in the store was made to accommodate special diets. Low fat, low carb, gluten free, and on and on. Now I understand there are many people with medically necessary dietary restrictions, but the majority of the special foods are for 'diets.' I look around the store and I just see confusion. People don't know what to eat anymore!

[clarebear]

I feel like I have been brainwashed into grazing and snacking and that it is the right thing to do, I've even ignored older relatives when they have told me I need to eat 3 square meals a day!!

Finding this 2 weeks ago is like a revelation, which feel silly as it was 'the norm' a few decades ago and it's almost too obvious!

I feel like I have been set free! I am enjoying the hunger I feel 90 mins before my lunch, I am enjoying whatever I fancy eating at each meal without really giving it much thought beforehand and I am enjoying the fact that I don't feel sleepy at 3pm from constant snacking messing my blood sugar levels up!! I'm even waking up more alert!!

The culture we live in is just going to get worse unfortunately thank goodness for newbies to no-s though! I just wish there could be a shift in attitudes towards food and body image.

[oolala53]

Snacking was common in many of the countries I travelled in. There were chunky people there, but not like in the U.S., esp. some states. However, I doubt it was promoted as a weight loss tactic, as it is here.