Striking vs. Catching

Post by **reinhard** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:05 pm

A bunch of people have posted about using their sledge to whack tires instead of or as a supplement to vanilla, targetless shovelglove, and I have to admit, I'd started to feel a little inadequate that I don't do this myself (though of course it isn't really an option, given my cramped living space).

But I think there may be an advantage to just catching your sledge instead of actually hitting something: catching a rapidly moving weight is really hard work, maybe even harder than throwing it, and certainly differently hard. It complements and balances the throwing movement.

I don't mean to suggest that striking doesn't have it's own advantages as well -- just that it might not be totally superior to catching in every respect.

My knowledge of physiology is insufficient to make any authoritative pronouncements on the subject, just thought I'd throw it out there for better educated heads to mull over.

Reinhard

sledge · Post by **sledge** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:28 pm

I would have to agree that 'catching' the movement, I believe has certain advantages in muscular energy almost becoming a 'moving isometric'....I know, a dycodomy of terms there, but at least that's how it feels to me.
To 'absorb' the movement rather than transferiong it's energy....really takes a lot more effort and becomes the workout in itself.

Just my 2-cents.

gratefuldeb67 · Post by **gratefuldeb67** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:17 pm

Hitting the tire is much harder on the hands, I found..
Not that I have done that much..

I think the feeling of satisfaction on the part of the tire advocates, comes most probably, purely from the feeling of smashing something!!!!

That alone probably causes a big shift in your endorphin levels!

LOL...

Have a great weekend~
Peace and Love,

Deb

david · Post by **david** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:01 pm

Reinhard,

The catching thing is called "sundome (sun-doh-may)" in Japanese. I use it in my MA practice often. It's a different--some would say more difficult--skill than using follow-through. Shovelglove has greatly improved my ability to do good sundome.

I think that as far as exercise is concerned that the throw/catch balance is harder work because of what the bodybuilders call T.U.T.=Time Under Tension. The T.U.T of Shovelglove plus the constant movement with very little rest for 14 minutes is POTENT.

--David

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:06 am

I don't have a tire to beat on, but I will oftentimes "pretend" to be hitting a tire or driving a spike, stopping just short of "impact". It definitely takes a lot to stop that if you have a pretty good swing going.

Post by **reinhard** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:35 pm

David,

Thanks for alerting me to the existence of "sundome" and sorry I took so long to revisit this thread. I love having a technical, time-honored term for this essential shovelglove technique.

It was a tad tricky to find anything about it on the web (lots of stuff about a structure called the Sundome in Washington), but here's something:

From http://www.pref.akita.jp/tiiki/wg2001/e ... arate.html

In Karate, "stopping" before touching the body, Sundome, is a major basic rule

From http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pa ... icle35.htm

it is paradoxical that, after thorough training what the real feeling of ‘giving a blow’ is, that we realize the importance of the control or sundome.”

I'll post more here as I find it. I'd love to find something about it actually working your muscles harder in some way.

In the meantime, onward Sundome Shovelglovers.

Reinhard

gratefuldeb67 · Post by **gratefuldeb67** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:12 pm

In the meantime, onward Sundome Shovelglovers.

Reinhard

Hah!
Thats' cute Rein

A call to battle!!!

LOL...

How is that pronounced?

Probably "Soon do meh"
Hmmm????

ThomsonsPier · Post by **ThomsonsPier** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:44 pm

Stopping prior to impact is, indeed, harder on the muscles, as it works a wider range. If you hit something, the muscles opposing the forward motion have to do less work because the momentum transfer from the impact doesx it for them.

I should probably mention at this point that I don't shovelglove and the above is also based on martial arts practice.

david · Post by **david** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:24 pm

Guys,

Sundome, pronounced:

soon--doe--may (or close to it)

A "sun" is a unit of measure about equal to one inch.
"dome" comes from the root "tomeru" which means "to stop."

So, "inch-stop"---I think of it as "stopping on a dime."

Yes, the term is used in karate, but it's also used in kenjustsu/swordwork and the analogy is better vis-a-vis holding an implement, swinging it, and then stopping it.

The key to doing this well with a sword or a hammer is body unit coordination and breath control. I have a theory that this is what actually what makes long-term shovelglovers "strong as f*ck" but I haven't worked out the details yet.

--david

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Definitely sounds like an interesting theory and I can kind of see where you're coming from.

gratefuldeb67 · Post by **gratefuldeb67** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:41 pm

Hello you guys!
I love this thread!!! LOL..

Just wanted to chime in with my Shiatsu practice training here..
Now that I understand what "Sun" is... And, interestingly enough (and kindof strangely) this is spelled
"Cun" in all my books but pronounced with a "S" sound...

This is the unit of measurement equal to ones own thumb width.. It's the "Human Inch"....
This is the unit of measurement used for locating accupressure/puncture points on a persons body.

My guess is that the precision involved in keeping ones balance and steadiness rather than letting momentum run amok uncontrolled, makes us engage our muscles in a much more involved way and probably many more of them all in tandem...
Keep it up!!!!

HA!

Peace and Love,

Deb

sledge · Post by **sledge** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:45 am

David, Gratful, and Vanilla-
This is a great thread that I am really enjoying.
David once you work out the translation for 'strong as f*ck', please post that, too.

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:41 pm

It is a good thread indeed. I am enjoying reading everyone's ideas on why this seems to work so well and soaking up the info.

It kind of strikes me as doing plyometrics (i.e. clapping pushups), only the impact on the joints isn't as tough. It's a somewhat ballistic movement with all the starting and "stopping on a dime".

I'm wondering how much muscle fiber recruitment it would build to stop and start more than once through the arc of the swing. Possibly start the swing, stop cold about halfway through the movement and then resume. I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but I'm trying to think of a way to generate power over a short distance akin to the way a boxer would with a short, crisp 6-inch punch...Or Bruce Lee and his fabled 1 and 3 inch punches.
Max power and explosiveness over a very short distance.

Forgive me..I am thinking out loud as it were.

david · Post by **david** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:11 pm

I like this thread too!

Sledge, a nice translation for "strong as f*ck" that would be applicable to martial arts is "kokyu ryoku" or "breath power." Actually, it's important in lots of traditional arts like no theater, shiatsu, kyudo, etc. Kokyu ryoku implies a unified, flowing quality of strength rather than stiff, dead, purely muscular strength. I'll have to talk to a friend of mine who is expert at cussing in Japanese about a literal translation.

Vanilla, I think you are right on about the plyometric idea. Recently I've begun using plyo pushups and plyo squats(leaps, basically) after my normal pushups and squats and I'm seeing/feeling noticable results after just a few weeks. Shovelglove seems to work in a similar way, at least for me.

I'm gonna keep experimenting and reporting back. I really like hearing everyone else's ideas so that I can steal them!

thanks,
David

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:32 pm

Vanilla, I think you are right on about the plyometric idea. Recently I've begun using plyo pushups and plyo squats(leaps, basically) after my normal pushups and squats and I'm seeing/feeling noticable results after just a few weeks. Shovelglove seems to work in a similar way, at least for me.

I like to do some plyos from time to time also. I try to cycle them to ward off staleness and give the joints and tendons a bit of a break. But I definitely agree that shovelglove offers a similar result. Especially if you are using the "braking" technique".

I'm gonna keep experimenting and reporting back. I really like hearing everyone else's ideas so that I can steal them!

Stealing ideas...A man after my own heart!

I am always experimenting as well. Right now I have been mimicking hockey style "slapshots" with the sledge. Taking 5-10 shots from one side and then switching sides and doing the same back and forth for a few minutes.

david · Post by **david** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:16 pm

Vanilla,

I did the slapshot thing this morning. I like it!

thanks,
david

sledge · Post by **sledge** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:22 pm

I like the 'slapshot' idea and I'll put it in tonight.
How about 'rowing' moves? I added this last week and when I did my 6lb. 'faster workout last evening, I used the 6 lb'r and did it as a single arm movement with the rowing and held the arm only slightly bent, not really bent at the elbow. Using only the 'slight' bend in the elbow, and trying to keep it further away from my body, really put the work into the shoulder.
The 'slapshot'.....how much of a bend at the waist do you use?
How does the back feel the next day?

Thanks.

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:02 pm

I try to vary the bend of the waist when taking the slapshots, but mostly I just use a slight bend. Probably less than a 45 degeree bend most times, I'd estimate. Sometimes I go a bit "deeper" for a really hard shot, but mostly I'm trying to focus on the twist motion...Trying to work the oblique area. I don't feel it too much in the back, but fortunately my back is naturally pretty strong and tolerant of such movements.
I mostly get it in the forearms, arms, shoulders and obliques. I'm still trying to refine my technique with it.

Another more conservative approach I am going to try is "golfing"....Trying to switch it up between putting motions and long drives. If you wanted to just "put", I'm thinking you could really isolate the foreams from a different angle. Of course this is all "shot in the dark" and speculation atm...lol

I also like the idea of the "rowing" moves. I will have to work on those and give 'em a shot!

Nielsio · Post by **Nielsio** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 pm

Just realized the thread title was rather gay..

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:24 am

thanks for that helpful piece of input there nielsio...

on the subject of one inch punches, there is a neat little doco about them on youtube, worth the watching imho!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9iPFMriz0

the stopping thing sounds like what my friend was saying when he showed me some kendo stuff. You have to get a very precise *stop* with the sword, so that the momentum doesn't carry the blade on into your opponent and leaving you defenceless...

It also kicked my ass with regards to how much I ached the next day after doing an hour with a 1.5m steel practice sword!

gratefuldeb67 · Post by **gratefuldeb67** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:52 am

Hi Pete!
Good going with your sword stuff!

I watched the youtube thing.. Cool!
It always makes me laugh when I go and punch some guy in the shoulder in that concentrated way, and it makes them almost fall over..

Seeya!
Peace,

Deb

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:54 am

Thanks for the link. I'll definitely have to check it out!

As far as the stopping thing goes...It really is surprising how much even a lighter weight can kick your butt when you aren't used to training in that manner.

phayze · Post by **phayze** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:33 pm

Reinhard mentioned wanting to quote a comment I made in my intro thread here, so I thought I'd save him the trouble and post it myself:

"I've got a background in martial arts (Aikido, fencing, Qi Gong, and various other dablings) and theatrical combat, so the kind of practical strength that SG builds just makes perfect sense to me. I especially like the control developed by "catching" the SG before it impacts - extremely useful to stage fighters, seeing as how we're actively trying NOT to hit each [other] while simultaneously convicining our audience that we are. It's a strange art . . . "

Not sure if there are any other aspiring fight choreographers/stage combatants out there, but it might be interesting to you all the same.

JWL · Post by **JWL** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:33 pm

heh, my wife and I aren't stage choreographed fighters or anything, but oftentimes we'll get silly and do a mock choreographed fight in super-slow motion, matrix like.... it usually ends with one of us pulling out an automatic firearm and, in slow motion, blasting the hell out of the other one.... unless of course the other one sees it coming and manages to dodge all the bullets...

Great fun and a good way to release aggression....

phayze · Post by **phayze** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:15 pm

hehe, sounds fun! We do stuff like that in stage combat classes, too.

ThomsonsPier · Post by **ThomsonsPier** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:01 am

I practise martial arts and appear at my local theatre a lot, but the two have yet to combine.

On such a note as to continue the functional strength theme, has anyone tried moving their sledgehammer through the normal range of motion slowly (think Tai Chi, not sloth) rather than the rapid movements I've seen described here?

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:26 am

I vary tempos from time to time in all my training whether it's weights, bodyweight exercises or sledgehammers. If for nothing else it's at least a different form of stimulus and helps stave off boredom with my training.

david · Post by **david** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:48 pm

Yes, I sometimes do a routine where the movements are very slooooooow.

It's a good change-up.

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:32 am

Came up with something a bit different tonight. I dubbed it "The Pool Cue"...lol
I'll see if I can explain it:
Basically, grasp the sledgehammer the way you would a pool cue. The handle of the hammer will be right against your forearm, kind of acting as a brace (How close or far away from the head of the hammer you grab will probably depend on you strength level. If you can grip it all the way at the end, you're definitely one up on me in wrist strength! lol)
Use the other hand up towards the head of the hammer and act as if you're guiding a pool cue with it...Setting up your shot.
Lean forward slightly and "take your shot", as it were...Pushing the hammer forward. Draw the hammer back and repeat for as many reps as you like/can stand and then switch hands and do it from the other side...Switching the "grip" and "guide" hands.
Good stretch and contraction in the lats and a killer grip workout.

I dunno if I explained it all that well or if anyone else will like it if I did, but it works pretty well for me...haha

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:38 am

Being an SGer that often uses a tire, I'll say this:

Hitting a tire is much more rewarding.
Using a tire is more aerobic, but produces less muscle fatigue.
Using a tire is much easier on the joints (elbows, wrists and shoulders) than "sundome" SG.

I like them both. at 47, I often favor exercise that is gentler on the joints. It's a middle aged thing. Someday, if you are lucky enough, you'll understand.

Post by **reinhard** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:00 pm

Kevin,

I'm sure you're right. I was just trying to find *something* redeeming about the only realistic option I have. Besides being more fun, striking something is closer to the useful movement it mimics (which is why it's more fun).

Good to see you posting here again.

This had been a fun thread. The shovelglove homepage sorely needs a revamp and I think the striking vs. catching issue deserves a section.

Reinhard

srbliss · Post by **srbliss** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:09 pm

I am always experimenting as well. Right now I have been mimicking hockey style "slapshots" with the sledge. Taking 5-10 shots from one side and then switching sides and doing the same back and forth for a few minutes.

I call those "smashing the foundation" think of beating the concrete foundation of a crawlspace house. I do these near the end of my workout as they are mostly a back-abs thing.

VanillaGorilla · Post by **VanillaGorilla** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:21 am

That works too! I like that move and have used it a lot since it kind of dawned on me.

zenboar · Post by **zenboar** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:55 pm

Sorry for the necropost, but I was searching the forum for the keyword "elbow" since one of the big concerns I'm sure many have starting with shovelglove or sledgehammer workouts is the impact it can have on the elbow and how stopping the hammer when doing indoor movements can affect the forearm. In playing with both kinds of workouts I've found a couple things that I haven't seen highlighted... though I haven't probed the forums exhaustively. Still, good to bring a good thread like this to the fore periodically for newcomers.

Beating on a tire is going to be different than beating on a stump or something nonelastic as opposed to rubber. When beating on a tire you get a rebound effect. Basically the hammer will bounce off the tire and be lifted back up by the rebounding energy. This actually makes beating on a tire **easier** than if you were actually driving a post or something. There are a couple of ways you can counter or work with this. You can use the effect for a "speed drill" kind of workout where the emphasis is on quick movement and elevated heart rate. Use the rebound to help move the hammer into a fluid motion as you bring it back, around, and up for another strike.

The alternative is to recover the hammer from the rebound (you have to learn to control the rebound anyway) and move into a ready-position pause. The way I do it, I basically whack the tire, control the rebound, and draw my "root hand" (the one at the base of the handle) back, sliding the handle through my opposite hand to where it is holding the neck of the hammer. I do a quick pause, and fire again. What this does is it kills the momentum of the hammer so that you are starting the swing from scratch. Naturally, starting a swing from a dead stop will be harder than using the energy from the rebound to carry it through.

While I'm at it, another way to turn a hammer-tire workout into more of a full-body workout is to do more of a "stepping sword strike" type motion. Say you're hitting the tire with your left foot forward. Get in position and then step back, turning so your right foot is forward and your left foot is back. The motion will then be to pivot on your right foot while drawing the hammer through its arc so that you step forward with your left and nail the tire. Pivot back, reload the hammer, and repeat. The thing I find to be important to remember is to drop the hammer with your legs and arms, NOT your back. You don't want to overextend your back but rather drop into a kind of squat (not unlike horse stance) to bring the hammer down.

For more "traditional" SG movements where you're not actually hitting anything, I find it better to **not** bring the hammer to a dead stop at the end of an arc where you might normally strike something. If you're new and not sufficiently developed, this can put a lot of stress on the muscles of the forearm and potentially tweak the elbow. Two ways I combat this are as follows:

A) "Tame" the motion of the hammer toward the end. Rather than wailing through a full arc only to stop the hammer dead I will pull through as if I was actually going to hit something. About halfway through I engage muscles to control the motion of the hammer. Think of it as striking in a way that, were I to actually be hitting a tire, I could actually swing as if to hit with all my might.. then just *tap* the tire at the end. Naturally, as your arms develop you can elect to engage more vigorous stops.

B) Carry through the motion. If my arms are tired or sore or something is going on where I'm concerned about a sudden stop tweaking the forearm muscles I will let the motion of the hammer carry through. Where I might normally stop the hammer I will let the motion continue but modify the arc so that I don't actually hit the floor but let the hammer draw back. The main thing is make sure your stance is such that you're not whacking yourself in the shin.

I'll try to do some video when the weather cools off. We're breaking record highs right now and I'm not inclined to be working out in my garage.. hence getting back to SG movements. I had been focusing on kettlebells, but it's hard to put your all into them when it's about 20 minutes in, you're becoming unsure of your grip, and you're worried about the KB sailing into your bay window. I try to make sure to stop when I can't keep good form and switch to something else, but even at the start of a session you're still worried about making sure you KB doesn't get away from you. A drop in the garage is far less catastrophic than one in the house.

Everyday Systems

Striking vs. Catching

Striking vs. Catching

Tires and sledges