Phayze's Ever-Growing Progress Thread

Take a sledgehammer and wrap an old sweater around it. This is your "shovelglove." Every week day morning, set a timer for 14 minutes. Use the shovelglove to perform shoveling, butter churning, and wood chopping motions until the timer goes off. Stop. Rest on weekends and holidays. Baffled? Intrigued? Charmed? Discuss here.
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phayze
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Phayze's Ever-Growing Progress Thread

Post by phayze » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:24 pm

Hey all!

A friend who tripped on this whole shovelglove thing while looking for diet advice sent me this way and I was immediately enthralled at the whole idea. After reading the main page and about 2/3rds of the mesage board posts I just had to get a 10 pound sledge and try this out last night . . . . Wow.

No, seriously - WOW!

That had to be the best upper body workout that I've had in my life! It really hit my forarms hard, which is awesome because I've always been unhappy with my spindly wrists, and all the time I've spent with free weights just hasn't done me the kind of good I've been wanting.

I've got a background in martial arts (Aikido, fencing, Qi Gong, and various other dablings) and theatrical combat, so the kind of practical strength that SG builds just makes perfect sense to me. I especially like the control developed by "catching" the SG before it impacts - extremely useful to stage fighters, seeing as how we're actively trying NOT to hit each while simultaneously convicining our audience that we are. It's a strange art . . . but I digress.

Awesome workout, loads of fun and even though my arms ache, I'm still wanting to do it again today!

Thanks to Reinhard for making this information available, and thanks to the rest of the Shovel-bums for contributing to this excellent community and sharing so many awesome ideas!
Last edited by phayze on Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by david » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:39 pm

Welcome Phayze!

I recommend listening to your soreness and not overdoing it. But, if you stick with this stuff without burning out it is really effective and it should also fit well with the other activities you listed!

Please keep us updated!

--david

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Post by phayze » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:13 pm

thanks, david!

I actually had the same thought, so I think I'm going to alternate shugging with time on the stationary bike while my body is getting used to the new exercises. It probably wouldn't have hurt to have started with an 8 lb hammer rather than a 10, but I have a bad habit of pushing myself too hard on things like that.
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:28 pm

Hi Phayze!
Welcome :)
Yes you will develop a "fearsome grip" (credit to Reinhard!) LOL and your wrists won't be spindly anymore!

The first day is really the hardest..
Mainly because one doesn't really appreciate how much metabolic drain will occur and how intense it is, so we usually go with a pace that's just a bit too much...

You will recover and adapt quickly though!
Have fun and cool pic!

I love qi gong but only practice the soft forms.. Which do you practice?
Iron shirt?
Also, aikido is pretty groovy!
I love doing the "Unbendable arm" trick! LOL..
Last time I tried that out, I was able to keep my arm extended while this 6'7" guy, with a 20 lb head and 275 lbls of muscle, tried, but couldn't bend it!
His mouth just dropped! LOL..

Extend your chi!

Have a nice day and let us know how it goes for you!
Peace and Love,
8) Deb
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Post by phayze » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:57 pm

HI Deb, and thanks! You're definitely right about over-doing it a bit to start - I got going at a pretty good pace for a while, but could barely lift that sledge by the end!

That's a pic of me doing a quarterstaff demonstration at a local Shakespeare festival. It got a little distorted when I resized it for the board, though. here's the full version. I did the lightsaber effect when I got bored one day. ;)

That guy I'm fighting was one of the zombie pirates in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie - my little brush with quasi-fame. :D

I've only been doing Qi Gong for about a month now, so I've just gotten a taste of the wuji form. I'm having a great time with it, though.

I loved doing Aikido! My dojo fell on hard times and disbanded, so I've been away from it for years but I still practice the moves in my head and in my stage combat to keep it with me. I keep hope alive that someday I'll be able to take it back up.
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Post by JWL » Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:28 pm

HI Phayze.... great photo!

Remember also that while you're getting used to this, leverage is your friend... "choke up" (as they say in baseball) your grip until you get used to it....

Have fun with it, this is the best exercise going....
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Post by reinhard » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:04 am

Welcome phayze, and thanks for the post. I'm very glad to hear that you with all your martial arts/exercise experience got so much out of it.

But I'm afraid it sounds like you may be a little sore tomorrow...

I always thought Shakespeare should have written a play about zombies fighting with lightsabers... no question he would, if he were alive today :-)

I'm going to quote your "catching" comment on the "Striking vs. catching" thread.

Looking forward to more such observations,

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:02 pm

JWL - thanks for the leverage advice. I think my hammer is a bit too heavy for me, because I'm keeping my lead hand as close to the head as possible and I'm still having some control issues.

Reinhard - Glad to know that I'm already making a contribution to the group consciousness. ;)

I've always thought that a Star Wars version of Hamlet would be the ultimate in High Brow/Low Brow entertainment. Not quite a zombie, but Hamlet's dad is restless dead, so that's pretty close. :lol

Oh, and you're right about the soreness . . . .

Yesterday evening I was staring at the bike and having this conversation with myself (I do this sort of thing all the time, although I'm not sure how it reflects on my mental health).

"I don't feel like riding the bike tonight. Shovelglove is more fun."
"You know you should, though."
"Maybe, but I feel pretty much recovered from yesterday."
"I don't care, this is new and you shouldn't push yourself."
"I like pushing myself - that's the whole point of working out."
"True, but you don't like recovering when you hurt yourself."
"I'll be fine!"
"Wasn't that what Custer said?"

Then I shovelgloved. Then my right bicep became irate. I can't be certain, but I think it was "shovel the dirt over your shoulder" that set it off.

It's not major, but it's uncomfortable so I'll be playing one-armed man as much as I can today to give it a break. Aside from that one muscle I feel pretty good though, and after I finished shugging I felt like friggin' superman for about two hours.

I think tomorrow I'm going to try to exchange my 10 pounder for an 8 (though I probably won't be shovelgloving again until Friday, just to be safe). I'm just glad that I saved the receipt!

Thanks again for the warm welcome and the advice, all!
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Post by JWL » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:27 pm

hey there, if they have a 30 day return policy, I'd hold off a bit on the exchange. My first week of shugging.... my goodness. I was sore like I'd never been sore before. But I got used to it reasonably quickly.

My suspicion is that if you can get through an entire 14 minute routine with the 10 pounder on your first day, then you will most likely adapt to the 10 pounder pretty quickly.

If it were me, I'd give it another week, maybe 2. If you still feel it's too heavy, then swap it for the 8 pounder.

No matter what you do though, stick with wood handles. My 16# is fiberglass, and me no likey.

Also, I remember my forearms being utterly slayed my first week of shovelglove. I'd never quite exercised those muscles this well before....
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Post by phayze » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:43 pm

Hmm, that's not a bad idea about holding off on the exchange. Maybe if I just try to slow things down a bit I'll avoid future strains.

I know what you mean about not working the forarms - there just aren't any free weight excercises that come remotely close to the gauntlet they go through with this. I know, I've tried!

The weakness in my biceps and forarms is really my limiting factor with the shugging I've done so far - they give out so quickly that the other muscle groups being worked are just starting to burn. I know they'll catchup eventually though, and then I'll find a new weakspot that'll get brought up to speed. :D
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Post by VanillaGorilla » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:24 pm

Not much else I can add to what everyone else has said beyond welcome to the forum!
I agree with the idea of sticking with the hammer you have. I think you will find you adapt to it quite easily. If need be, just take it a bit easier for a spell...Don't get too caught up in enthusiasm and burning out. Work your way into it and you'l be good to go.

Welcome again!
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Post by phayze » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:49 am

Thanks, Vanilla!

I think I am going to stick with my 10# and just lighten up on the number of reps that I'm doing. As it is, I'm doing too much, too fast in the first few minutes and just don't have much left for the second half.
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Post by VanillaGorilla » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:58 pm

I think that is the tendency of most of us when trying something new...We go all out and end up a bit burnt initially. As they say, that seems to be why some people lose interest in things. Too much, too soon.
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Post by phayze » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:57 pm

Okay, so I'm off to a fresh start with my shovelglove after last week's false start with the angry bicep.

This morning (because I've decided to actually do this in the morning rather than lay in bed for that extra 15 minutes like a slug) I did a fairly easy, moderately paced routine of 10 reps on each side of various movements, just to get the feel for them. I'll probably do the same thing tomorrow. Now that I've checked my gung-ho attitude, I'm going to ease myself into this while still working it 5 days a week rather than killing myself every other day and hoping to recover enough on the off-days.

I also thought up a new move as a kind of modified flip-lever. I call it: Quick Draw (or "Barney Fife" because I got the idea watching him demonstrate proper technique just prior to shooting himself in the foot). Basically, you hold your SG in flip-lever position and then you draw it up along your side a little to clear the "holster" then bring your elbow to 90 degrees and bring the weapon forward a bit in a threatening manner. Shouting "BANG" at this point is entirely optional. Then you reverse the movement and return the SG to it's "holster".

I use a low-slung tactical holster because it allows a fuller range of movement (and I think they look cooler, but that's not the point), but you can go with the traditional wild west style, or even a cross-draw if you're into that.

EDIT: I should probably point out that "Quick Draw" is sort of a misnomer, and part of the joke (who quick-draws a 10 pound pistol!?). I would advice focusing on making the movement smooth and fluid as opposed to trying to do it fast.
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Post by phayze » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:07 pm

Well, this will be my two week check-in, not counting that first week where I overdid it and strained a bicep.

Two weeks straight of SG every weekday morning and I'm already seeing a difference, both in muscle definition and strength. I created a list of all the moves I could find or think of and sorted them out into five groups of five, one for each day of the week. I spent the first week just taking things slow and doing about 10 or 15 reps on each side at an almost languid pace, just feeling out the motions and getting used to how best to position everything for the best muscle recruitment. This started to get a little dull by the end of week, but doing different movements every day helped.

For week two, I started every session with 5 reps on each side nice and slow as a warm-up and then did 20s at a medium/fast past. There are still a few moves that I can't get to 20 with (turn the valve, quick draw and hoist sacks, in particular), but I do as many as I can and that number has already started to creep up.

Before starting to SG, I took about 2 weeks away from my old weight routine because of vacation and house repairs, and in that brief time I felt like I lost all of the tiny gains that I'd made in six months of lifting. Somehow, 2 weeks of shugging have earned that back for me, and the muscles feel a lot firmer than they did before!

I just wish I'd found this site before wasting so much time in the weight room!
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Post by david » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:23 pm

Way to go Phayze!

I too have noticed that muscles seem to firm up rather than blow up with shovelglove.

Keep the updates rolling in!

--david

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Post by reinhard » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:38 pm

Excellent, Phayze.

I'm glad to hear your sticking with it despite some initial trouble and seeing results.

You're right to take it very slow. Don't worry about getting high rep counts. I think you'll get just as good a workout if you do two or more low rep sets of each movement than just one record breaker (I'm going to post a new discussion about this in a bit). Plus it will be safer.

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:56 am

Thanks for the positive reinforcement, guys!

I'm looking forward to that thread, Reinhard - I have a feeling it'll generate some interesting conversation.
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Post by phayze » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:41 pm

Four weeks and still going strong (and stronger as I go)! I've refined my system a little as well, so here's my current routine:

Image

I've been working the whole "low rep sets" thing this week and it feels pretty good, but I might go back to high reps next week just to keep a little variety.

"Start the mower" (which is a bit modern, so you could just as easily call it "pulling weeds" if you like) occurred to me last weekend while starting my weed eater, which is always a trial and usually involves some harsh language.

Basically it's a rear deltoid row - I go down on one knee, bend forward slightly and pull the SG back as if pulling the rip cord on my weed eater, but note how the arm doesn't come back alongside the body like with a standard bent-over row (although I suppose you could do it that way if you wanted to). I was thinking this morning (post-workout, unfortunately) that if you straightened your elbow at the peak of the backward motion you'd get some nice tricep recruitment (kind of like a kick-back, I guess) and you could say you were "tossing the weeds" as you "pull" them. Haven't tried it yet, but I'll play around with and let y'all know.

Edit: Upon further research, I think it would probably be better to do the standard bent-over row - it involved all the same muscles as the other verison, plus several others.

Guess I'll play with that, too. ;)
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Post by reinhard » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:02 pm

Phaze,

I'm glad to hear shovelglove's working so well for you and thanks for posting your detailed routine.

If you don't mind, I'll stick this in the new shovelglove "routines" section I'm working on (once I get the movements section redone).

I've been alternating between small reps sets some days and old style record breakers other days. Variety is less boring, and probably physically better, too.

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:14 pm

No, I don't mind at all! I'm always happy to contribute to the community. :D

The one thing that I've seen almost all fitness resources agree on is that too much repitition in a routine is a bad idea. Variety keeps your body guessing and stimulates both the mind and muscles in new ways.
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Post by david » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:02 pm

That looks like a good set-up, Phayze. What is "feed the animals?"

--david

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Post by phayze » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:30 pm

Thanks, Dave. I'm certainly enjoying it. :)

I don't know where I read about the feed thing, but basically you hold the SG horitontal while "spreading chicken feed" from a basket cradled in your other arm (hard to describe . . . ). Feels pretty good on the forearms and some of the smaller rotator muscles in the shoulder.
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Post by david » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:55 pm

Oh yeah, now I remember. I think that may have been from one of Samurai's scenarios.

thanks,
david

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Post by VanillaGorilla » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:06 am

Looks like you're doing quite well, Phayze! Congrats to ya.

I agree with the crowd that variety is a good thing. I was just addressing this very issue with someone the other day, actually.
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Progress report!

Post by phayze » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:46 pm

Odd timing, but I'm starting off my 8th weeks as a shovelglover with an S-day (labor day) - which is well timed, because lack of sleep has really been screwing with my enjoyment of the workout all week. I'm still surprised at how easy it is to get up and do this every morning, even on days like today when I was so tired I really didn't feel like it.

My 10# sledge has gotten significantly lighter, and I'm gripping it a lot farther from the head than I used to, even on motions that I had trouble with at first (like "cracking the whip" - which I honestly almost just accidentally typed as "crapping the whip", but I digress . . . ). Oh, and my forearms look bigger - Woot! But then, so do most of my other upper body muscles . . . I wouldn't say that I'm getting "big" or anything, but I'm filling in and definitely getting firmer and more toned. Someday I might even find my abs, which are hidden behind the remains of my obese childhood.

The knees have been kind of grumbly for a little over a week, so I've avoided the hindu squats and started wearing my trusty neoprene brace. With any luck and a little patience I'll be back at them after my long weekend.

Currently I'm doing a little over 10 minutes worth of SG, and then I do some "degraded beast" (20 reps alternating between finger tips, knuckles and palms) and I finish off the morning routine with 5 or 6 reps each of the 5 Tibetan Rites and some breath meditation for cool-down before hitting the shower.

I'm still thinking about building some club-work into my routine, but I haven't found a good alternative to the expensive clubs online. I thought about building them out of galvanized plumbing pipe and filling them with water or sand, but none of the three hardware stores that I went to had a sufficient supply of parts for me to play with. Besides that, I think the pipe will be too light, even filled. A 4# engineer's hammer felt okay, but I thought it was too short and too expensive - I don't want to pay anymore than $20 for the pair.

My next experiment will involve some old adjustable 5# ankle weights and a stick. I'll let you know how that turns out.
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Post by david » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:13 pm

Congratulations on your progress, Phayze!

Have you tried filling a toy plastic baseball bat with sand to use as a club? I hear that works pretty well.

--david

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Post by SaveFerris » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:46 am

Tibetan Rites potential benefits wrote: looking much younger; sleeping soundly; waking up feeling refreshed and energetic; release from serious medical problems including difficulties with spines; relief from problems with joints; release from pain; better memory; arthritis relief; weight loss; improved vision; youthing instead of aging; greatly improved physical strength, endurance and vigor; improved emotional and mental health; enhanced sense of well being and harmony; and very high overall energy.
Is this for real? I'm not saying that this program can't provide benefits, but come on... there is some serious smoke being blown somewhere. Please explain to me how this can "improve vision" or "look much younger."


As for the clubs... yes try getting plastic bats, and fill them and then duct tape the top back on. Varying weights can be achieved by filling 1 with sand(light), 1 with gravel(medium) and fill another one with concrete(heavy).
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Post by JWL » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:21 am

Hi SaveFerris, the Tibetan rites look like a yoga routine, basically. Yes, those are outrageous claims from a western perspective. But the nice thing about eastern exercises (yoga, t'ai chi, etc) is that they tend to work systemically, on both the body and the energy system (chi/qi etc) that animate the body. The benefits of this kind of work are difficult to quantify as they are holistic in nature.

Suffice to say that this sort of exercise will provide systemic benefits that are hard to measure, and may not be easily discernible to be directly related to the exercises....
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Post by SaveFerris » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:06 am

How is improved vision hard to measure?

You can either read line 5 when before you could only read line 4 or you can't. That's a pretty straightforward claim in my opinion.

I'm willing to accept the idea that this program may enchance vision using your 'chi', however, my question really is... Has there actually been a study(eastern or western) where persons from a pool of people with bad vision did the program and noticeable improvement in vision actually occured? Or did some asian man say "do this excercise, it WILL improve your vision/lose weight/make you look younger" and everyone took his word for it because he was a wise old Mr. Miyagi type guy who carried a certain mystique with him?

Has anyone read the book on that Tibetan Rites site? Maybe they answer some of this..

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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:49 am

Wow Ferris!
Let's lighten up eh???
LOL...

Don't do the stuff if you aren't into it...

Peace and Love,
8) Deb
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Post by JWL » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:15 am

OK, so let's try an example.

Let's say I go to the optometrist, and I am tested with having 20/40 vision in one eye, and 20/80 in another.

I decide I want to improve that, and my doktor prescribes 8 weeks of hardcore yoga and tai chi, including the Tibetan rites.

On the way home, intrigued by the prospect of doing the Tibetan rites, I am almost run over by a bus that I didn't even notice coming down the pike.

After 8 weeks, I've been breathing more deeply, so my brain is more oxygenated. Overall, my muscular system has less tension being stored in it, in addition to being stronger and more flexible. I feel more connected to the earth, more aware of what is around me, the sensation of the oneness of everything is around me more vividly palpable than ever.

On the way in to the optometrist, I know the bus is there long before I can hear it, much less see it. I watch it roll by and smile at a lonely looking woman peering out from the bus window. Everything is humming around me. The colors are brighter, and my facial muscles are more relaxed because they are spending more time smiling than frowning.

Now, 8 weeks later, I sit in the optometrists chair, and chuckle at the western notion of isolating variables and avoiding compounded causes, because no matter what I "score" on this test, I'm seeing better than I ever have.
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Post by SaveFerris » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:32 pm

I see what you are saying JWL, but I'm just a skeptic.

The idea behind it is very infomercial-esque. It's a case of "I'll make an incredibly outrageous claim, and then when asked about proof of medical benefits from my program, I'll tell them that the benefits CAN'T be measured by normal science so there is no burden of proof on my part" also I'm sure you noticed the subtle plug for there own product half way down the page? If you had cancer, and your doctor prescribed wearing fresh watermelon on your feet 12 hours a day, every day... would you do it w/o question(I mean, the person who told you to do it IS a doctor after all)? Or would you go home, hop on the internet and start looking up proof of this watermelon shoe claim? And if you could find no proof that wearing watermelon on your feet helped get rid of the cancer, would you still go about wearing them just because your doctor said so?

"I'm seeing better, but my doctor can't tell!"

There's a lot of BS running rampant through the world of health these days, and I feel like I have to call out the BS when I see it and help inform others of it. Everywhere people are making medical claims that have no actual proof of being beneficial(colonics, for example, have no proven medical benefits, but they are advertised to make you lose weight, feel better, more energy, etc). Breathing and stretching exercises increase vision... how?

People LOVE the mystique of the Asians. We do, we love it. I'll give you an example... martial arts. Martial arts has come A LONG way in the past 15 years, with the introduction of mixed martial arts fighting. Boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, and jiujitsu have been PROVEN to be the most effective combat styles in 1 on 1 instances. Despite that fact, MILLIONS of people are still opting for the Eastern traditional martial art styles that have been exposed as just being silly and ineffective. Wushu, kung fu, tae kwon do... all of those have been exposed as being, well, crap, for the most part. Yet people still do them because they LOVE the mysticism of things like the Karate Kid.
JWL wrote: After 8 weeks, I've been breathing more deeply, so my brain is more oxygenated.
The same thing can happen from doing moderate cardio 5 times a week, and the cardio would probably be more effective.
JWL wrote:Overall, my muscular system has less tension being stored in it, in addition to being stronger and more flexible.
Anyone can accomplish this with stretching and light bodyweight exercise.
JWL wrote:I feel more connected to the earth, more aware of what is around me, the sensation of the oneness of everything is around me more vividly palpable than ever.
Meditation has those kinds of effects on people.

So either there is smoke being blown, or the above 3 will also improve vision, but it hasn't been documented yet?

If this program helps you, all the power to ya. However, and what I'm really saying is, is this program 'effective' because everyone took the persons word before them at face value without ever even questioning it? I mean if it is written on the internets(and even more so, if it originated from a wise old asian man) IT MUST BE TRUE! right?

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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:42 pm

JWL wrote:OK, so let's try an example.

Let's say I go to the optometrist, and I am tested with having 20/40 vision in one eye, and 20/80 in another.

I decide I want to improve that, and my doktor prescribes 8 weeks of hardcore yoga and tai chi, including the Tibetan rites.

On the way home, intrigued by the prospect of doing the Tibetan rites, I am almost run over by a bus that I didn't even notice coming down the pike.

After 8 weeks, I've been breathing more deeply, so my brain is more oxygenated. Overall, my muscular system has less tension being stored in it, in addition to being stronger and more flexible. I feel more connected to the earth, more aware of what is around me, the sensation of the oneness of everything is around me more vividly palpable than ever.

On the way in to the optometrist, I know the bus is there long before I can hear it, much less see it. I watch it roll by and smile at a lonely looking woman peering out from the bus window. Everything is humming around me. The colors are brighter, and my facial muscles are more relaxed because they are spending more time smiling than frowning.

Now, 8 weeks later, I sit in the optometrists chair, and chuckle at the western notion of isolating variables and avoiding compounded causes, because no matter what I "score" on this test, I'm seeing better than I ever have.
Go James!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol:

And this is why I love you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That was a great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Heh he heh!!!!!!!!!
Rock on widya self yo!!!!!
8) Debs
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Post by david » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:22 pm

Where's the scientific proof that shovelglove "works"? Have I been taken in by a wise man with a German-sounding name? Obviously I should be doing something much more effective like bodybuilding, right? I mean, bodybuilders win contests so that proves they're doing the best activity!

Damn, I've been wasting my time here!

--david

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Post by reinhard » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:44 pm

Woah. No flame wars while I'm doing weekend luddite please!

1) Yes, there is a lot of Eastern inspired snake oil being sold. But that doesn't mean it's all crap. And as David pointed out, I'm not aware that any of my everyday systems have come to the attention of the scientific establishment either.

2) I wasn't aware that most people studied martial arts in order to become effective street fighters. From what I understand, the "mysticism" of traditional martial arts serves both as a motivating force, something to make an otherwise merely physical routine interesting, and as a benefit in itself: a happy state of mind. Sounds pretty shovelglove-like to me...

3) let's be nice here. If you really want to do people a service to people by exposing the irrationality of their ideas, try to do so in a way that doesn't piss them off. Else one has to wonder if service is really your motivation. You raise some legitimate points, and I hope you'll continue to do so, but you'll get them across more effectively if you lubricate them with a little more civility.

OK, hope I didn't just kill the conversation. Just want to make sure the gloves stay on.

Happy labor day!

Reinhard

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Post by reinhard » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:24 pm

Saveferris,

Taking my own advice, I just want to add: your post was funny and had some interesting (if incomplete) truths in it. It would have been a great blog rant directed against no one in particular. But this isn't a blog, it's a bulletin board, and that means we have to be a little more careful about stomping on people's toes.

On that note, sorry if I over-refereed a bit in my last post.

Best,

Reinhard

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Post by SaveFerris » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:20 pm

david wrote:Where's the scientific proof that shovelglove "works"? Have I been taken in by a wise man with a German-sounding name? Obviously I should be doing something much more effective like bodybuilding, right? I mean, bodybuilders win contests so that proves they're doing the best activity!
Ah you got a good point... because it makes pefectly rational sense that using your muscles will give you better eyesight. :roll: Who would've guessed though, that doing resistance training would give you bigger, stronger muscles and more muscle endurance. You got me. BTW,shovelglove is just another type of gpp incase you were unaware.

I'm sorry but there is an incredibly far-cry between doing resistance training and getting bigger/strong muscles/more muscle endurance and doing stretching/breathing and increasing your vision. The former has been noted many many many times over. The latter... has not.
reinhard wrote:2) I wasn't aware that most people studied martial arts in order to become effective street fighters. From what I understand, the "mysticism" of traditional martial arts serves both as a motivating force, something to make an otherwise merely physical routine interesting, and as a benefit in itself: a happy state of mind. Sounds pretty shovelglove-like to me...
If they were marketed as only being an interesting physical routine and to achieve a happy state of mind, I'd be fine with that. However most martial art school don't, and infact use 'self defense' as a main selling point. The last couple pamplets I got about the local martial art schools all focused on the self defense part of it. I specifically remember one had a picture of what was sposed to be some kind of rugged looking street punk weilding a knife and it said "Are YOU prepared to defend yourself?"

And sorry for getting heated. I'll try to keep it cool from now on. Yep, cool like the Fonz. http://www.adamwade.com/humor/coffee/fonz.jpg

EDIT: here is the science behind why stuff like shovelglove 'works.' http://www.elitefts.com/documents/gener ... edness.htm david, so now in counter, you should find me some literature on how stretching/breathing helps vision.

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Post by JWL » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:10 am

Dude, I think you are missing the point. You are taking one example of how these exercises could affect the body (these exercises could improve vision) and running with it.

Does exercise improve vision? I don't know. I'd wager that the vision of yoga masters, averaged up, is probably better than that of the general control population. But any beginning scientific methodology class will (should?) emphasize that correlation is not causation.

The point is that these kinds of exercises, including shovelglove, emphasize improving the general systemic health of the organism over specific results (improved vision, bulging pecs or whatever).
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net

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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:05 am

This is really making me want to heave!

Okay.. I might just feel like adding a little Eastern info here though before I heave..
Ferris.. In accupuncture and traditional chinese medicine in general, as James mentioned, the whole body is treated.. These benefits are systemic.. They are real benefits.. I have proof! Heh heh..
I work on peoples breathing all the time and it definitely impacts on their health... Infact, I'll go as far as to say that real relaxed and focused breath is probably the single most important thing any of us can do to improve our health...

Most of the lists of benefits relate to the internal organ functions, which have a kind of generation and control cycle between each other, based on something called 5 Element theory.. And the sensory organs, like the ears, eyes, and lips, and nose are all external indicators of our internal health, and correspond to specific internal organs..

But, I hesitate to continue with this because you seem just bent on making yourself right..

Honestly, the think that annoys me most is that just because you don't understand these things, that doesn't automatically make them wrong or you right.. It just doesn't...

Also, why in the world are you so invested in this topic?
Actually, that's beside the point.. But I'd just suggest that you just don't go to the Martial Arts schools if you feel they are trying to deceive you.
Live and let live for goodness sake!

Poor Phaze!
Hi Phaze this is your thread and it's getting trampled here..
Don't feel stunted from mentioning the things you are interested in man!
We all like hearing it! I do!!!!
As for turning this light saber wielding guys thread into a droning argument, all I can say is, well, it suxxx!
Just negative vibes here..
Lame!

You know what.. I was going to explain about the relationships between the muscles and the eyesight, but I have a nagging feeling it's just gonna be lost on an unwilling and closed mind..
But yes, there's definitely a way that breathing can help, not even that indirectly, with eyesight, within the Traditional 5 Element theory of Chinese Medicine..

I'll just say, in a mystical kind of way, that where your mind goes, your chi follows...

Heh heh...

PS Hi Reinhard!
I'm glad you spoke up and there's no need to apologize!!!!!!!!!!!!

People on this board enjoy the ability to speak freely and not worry about things all of a sudden turning sour.. This is your board, and we are all guests here..
Let's behave like nice guests eh?

May the force be with you and yours!

Peace and Love,
8) Debs
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Post by gratefuldeb67 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:09 am

reinhard wrote:Woah. No flame wars while I'm doing weekend luddite please!

1) Yes, there is a lot of Eastern inspired snake oil being sold. But that doesn't mean it's all crap. And as David pointed out, I'm not aware that any of my everyday systems have come to the attention of the scientific establishment either.

2) I wasn't aware that most people studied martial arts in order to become effective street fighters. From what I understand, the "mysticism" of traditional martial arts serves both as a motivating force, something to make an otherwise merely physical routine interesting, and as a benefit in itself: a happy state of mind. Sounds pretty shovelglove-like to me...

3) let's be nice here. If you really want to do people a service to people by exposing the irrationality of their ideas, try to do so in a way that doesn't piss them off. Else one has to wonder if service is really your motivation. You raise some legitimate points, and I hope you'll continue to do so, but you'll get them across more effectively if you lubricate them with a little more civility.

OK, hope I didn't just kill the conversation. Just want to make sure the gloves stay on.

Happy labor day!

Reinhard
You are my hero!!!!!
:mrgreen: Deb
There is no Wisdom greater than Kindness

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Post by phayze » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:14 pm

Wow, this is what I get for avoiding the computer all weekend! :lol: Sorry I missed the great debate, kids - it looks like it was a lot of fun - I love a good debate. :D

Ferris makes some interesting points about the "infomercial-esque" claims of that site, and it's funny that I never noticed the improved vision claim when I read that site originally. I was just noting last night how odd it was that so many Buddhist monastics (including his Holiness the Dalai Lama) wear glasses. :lol:

I never really related it to practicing the 5 Rites, but I have noticed far fewer headaches from using the computer without my glasses since I started them (stupid astigmatism . . . ). Not scientific, by any means, but interesting I guess.
SaveFerris wrote:
JWL wrote: After 8 weeks, I've been breathing more deeply, so my brain is more oxygenated.
The same thing can happen from doing moderate cardio 5 times a week, and the cardio would probably be more effective.
JWL wrote:Overall, my muscular system has less tension being stored in it, in addition to being stronger and more flexible.
Anyone can accomplish this with stretching and light bodyweight exercise.
JWL wrote:I feel more connected to the earth, more aware of what is around me, the sensation of the oneness of everything is around me more vividly palpable than ever.
Meditation has those kinds of effects on people.
I think the part of JWL's argument that you're missing, Ferris, is that the 5 Rites were specifically designed to combine light cardio, meditation, stretching, and bodyweight resistance all into 5 simple exercises. Maybe it's not the most effective way, but I think that would vary from one person to the next.

Basically, I do the 5 Rites because I enjoy doing them. They're a good stretch, fun to do, and they really are a relaxing way to cool down from a nice hard SG routine while still being effective exercises in themselves.

Skepticism is a healthy and admirable quality, Ferris, but I would highly recommend trying them out for a few weeks before going out of your way to poo-poo them so aggressively.

As far as the martial arts thing goes, it's a gross generalization to say that Asian MAs are crap. Most American MA dojos are crap because they exist in order to make money by catering to the instant gratification needs of weak-minded American TV-drones who want to get a black belt and be Jackie Chan but not do any of the work that he did to get there. I've met and trained with a number of genuine Martial Artists who made it no secret that learning to use those skills effectively is a life-long endeavor that's not for the faint of heart.

Besides that, many modern Martial Arts have been converted to sports and lost much of their original intent, much like western sport fencing (Wu Shu, Kendo, Judo, Tai Kwon Do, and much of Kung Fu and Karate just to name a few). That doesn't make them "crap" necessarily, because proficiency in any of these Martial Sports would be useful in a street fight (reflexes, poise, strength, distance, timing, etc), but I agree that it's wrong to market a sport as a self defense system. I'd love to see a fencing salle bring in students with ads like that! :lol:

Deb, don't worry about my feelings being hurt by an argument in my thread - a few sparks are good for us, they remind us to stay on our toes and be prepared to justify our beliefs and preferences. Disagreement keeps the brain sharp. ;)

Reinhard, I don't think you've over-reffed at all. As much fun as debate can be, it's easy for everyone to get a little over-excited and forget that lubricant of civility.
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Post by SaveFerris » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:06 pm

Wow I really got tag teamed...

Anyway, JWL, I see what you are saying, and good point. But I am justified in this debate, I beleive. The site clearly says improved vision. I'm not reading between the lines, it didn't say it in a subtle way... it clearly says following the program will improve vision. I'm not going out on a limb here... If it just said "The results of this program are improving the general systemic health" then I really wouldn't know what all the does/doesn't encompass. However I do know, it specifically says "improved vision" and I'd like to specifically know how. If they are claiming it, then that means somewhere at sometime improved vision was noted(that or they are borrowing from the infomerical handbook of plays and just throwing that in because it sounds good even though the claim holds no water). Ya know, really, I'm willing to accept the fact that this program DOES improve vision. But I'd like to know of it has actually been noted. Or if one person just said one day "Ya know uhhhh, I think this improves vision. Write that down." Do you see where I'm coming from at least? I just wanna know how it improves vision and so far no one can really give a good explanation on how/why it does. If you've done the program and you've noticed improved vision, all the power to you. The program is intriguing. In fact, I think I'll start the program tomorrow and see if maybe I can downgrade the strength of my contacts in a few weeks.

gratefuldeb, Eastern ideas like acupuncture are interesting. The thing with that is, people around you can see and note the results. My friends aunt had a really nasty fingernail problem for years. She traveled everywhich direction about 1000 miles(livin in kansas) to see the specialist doctors. None of them could help her, but after 6 months of going to this acupunturist she had beautiful nails. I could see that, and note it. But, like in JWL's story, he says he sees better but that his optometrist wouldn't notice. I think if anyone can notice improved vision it will be someone who has worked with eyes for 8 hours a day, for the past 25 years. I don't know why I've invested in this topic, but why not. It's brought about some interesting discussion.

The thing with those martial arts school, deb, isnt that they are trying to deceive ME. If they were just trying to deceive me and only me, I'd laugh and be fine with it. But they are trying to deceive EVERYONE. If there was a scam artist scamming people in your town, and you found out about it are you gonna try and tell some of your friends and warn them? Or are you gonna say "live and let live for goodness sake!" while he continues to scam peoples money using some kind of childrens charity as a front? Now I know this situation isn't as evil as that, but it is similar, imo. What you don't know is, the guy may NOT be a scammer and actually is getting money for a childrens charity. Wouldn't you want to figure out the truth if you were being told 2 different things? That's how I feel. BTW, your post has contributed to these 'negative vibes' you are complaining about. And I don't think this arguement sucks either, it's been interesting for me.

I know I don't know everything. I know science(even though i love to it so much) can't explain everything. I will also apologize if I've come off as hardheaded. I tend to get passionate about things I or others cannot easily explain. Sorry to anyone offended.
phayze wrote:I think the part of JWL's argument that you're missing, Ferris, is that the 5 Rites were specifically designed to combine light cardio, meditation, stretching, and bodyweight resistance all into 5 simple exercises. Maybe it's not the most effective way, but I think that would vary from one person to the next.
Ahh, interesting. Kind of embarassed to say I hadn't really considered that. And like you said, I think I'll go ahead and give it a try for a few weeks.

However... when it comes to martial arts I still think most Asian and American martial arts are pretty well crap. There are still some good ones though, Judo is and always has been good self defense even if it was sport. They all have good, solid techniques. But they all teach really impractical things right along side the solid techniques. Jab-right cross has been proven to work over and over. High block into spinning back kick has not. The trapping fists techniques of Wu Shu are a good example of what I would call crap. Bruce Lee advocated them, and in a lot of Jeet Kune Do schools they are still taught all the time. But watch those students spar. I can honestly say I've only see a trapping hands technique done once in sparring. Some schools do focus just on street defense, and have a lot of focus around eye/throat/groin decimation. As effective as my grappling arts are for the street, I sincerely hope I'm never on the wrong side of 20years training of groin and throat destruction. But I see what you are saying. Everyone thinks they are the next Jackie Chan.

Also, like Deb said, sorry for highjacking your thread.
Last edited by SaveFerris on Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by phayze » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:54 pm

Nothing to apologize for, Ferris - It's a discussion board, so let's discuss. ;) Sorry if you're feeling tag-teamed, I know how annoying it can be to stand alone in your opinions.

I think a major problem with MAs in the modern world is that popular culture is so saturated with images of Bulletproof Monks that people demand that kind of education when they walk into a dojo. Many dojo are more than happy to oblige because it means that they get more money, but there are plenty of traditionalist who would agree with you that a standard right jab is an immensely powerful tool. I actually had the pleasure of training under one of them for a short time - he was a 20 year karateka, 4th Dan (he was prepping for his 5th Dan test when I last saw him), and state trooper with dozens and dozens of stories about fighting guys on PCP, "cleaning out bars" and being afraid to strike people with his fists after that one time the almost completely crushed a man's skull (he used most of the stories as object lessons, and examples of why we should try our best to stay out of fights, not to brag about what a bad dude he was). No BS, this guy was the real deal. He said that he generally prefered using Aikido moves when fighting multiple opponents, but he never went into a lot of detail about where and how he learned, just that they didn't use mats to practice falling. Ouch!

One of his students told a story about a green belt in his class that got mad because he'd lost a fight at a party the night before. Punk went up to Sensei screaming about how "this &*%$ doesn't work!!" Sensei tried to calm him down, but he started swinging - Sensei broke both of the guys arms just by blocking the punches. :shock:

That's not the kind of martial system that I would describe as "crap", but unfortunately the kind of scam artist schools that you're talking about are everywhere and guys like my old teacher don't advertise in the local yellow pages. It's sad, but they're a dying breed. :(

Another important thing to remember is that street fighting systems are specifically designed to make you dangerous in a hurry, but traditional martial arts aren't. Patience, discipline, control, pacifism, and humility are just as, if not more, important in traditional system as the ability to overcome an opponent, so you're not just learning to fight when you walk into a real dojo, and you'd better be prepared to spend 5 or 10 years working your butt off before you can expect to do much damage in a real fight.

As far the improved vision claim goes, I don't blame you for wondering about any empirical evidence there might be. I'm enough of a naturalist to question those things, too and like I said, I totally respect your skepticism. I'm not really qualified to give a real answer, but I think it would be reasonable to argue that the improved blood flow and relaxed muscles in the neck and head could conceivably improve vision through improved circulation to the eye. I wouldn't count on reducing your prescription after a few weeks though. :p :lol:

Remember that that one isn't the only site about the 5 Rites, and it's not like the people selling the books invented them. The Rites have (allegedly) been used in Tibet for ages, so it's also reasonable to assume that the authors of the page took their list of benefits directly from the Monks, and that maybe after all this time those benefits may have been accidentally exaggerated a little. Or maybe there were people like me who actually noticed a change in their vision problems after practicing them for a while, but as fans of science you and I both know that correlation is not grounds for assuming causation, so it's hard to tell what the truth is without a major research grant.

For me though, it's enough to just say "Hm, that's an interesting claim. I'm not sure if I believe that, but there seem to be enough benefits to make this worth trying out, so we'll see." I hope you get to enjoy doing the Rites as much as I do - I'd take some time to play with shifting your weight around in the positions to get a feel where the best stretch/resistance is.
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Post by SaveFerris » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:43 pm

phayze wrote:
I think a major problem with MAs in the modern world is that popular culture is so saturated with images of Bulletproof Monks that people demand that kind of education when they walk into a dojo. Many dojo are more than happy to oblige because it means that they get more money, but there are plenty of traditionalist who would agree with you that a standard right jab is an immensely powerful tool. I actually had the pleasure of training under one of them for a short time - he was a 20 year karateka, 4th Dan (he was prepping for his 5th Dan test when I last saw him), and state trooper with dozens and dozens of stories about fighting guys on PCP, "cleaning out bars" and being afraid to strike people with his fists after that one time the almost completely crushed a man's skull (he used most of the stories as object lessons, and examples of why we should try our best to stay out of fights, not to brag about what a bad dude he was). No BS, this guy was the real deal. He said that he generally prefered using Aikido moves when fighting multiple opponents, but he never went into a lot of detail about where and how he learned, just that they didn't use mats to practice falling. Ouch!

One of his students told a story about a green belt in his class that got mad because he'd lost a fight at a party the night before. Punk went up to Sensei screaming about how "this &*%$ doesn't work!!" Sensei tried to calm him down, but he started swinging - Sensei broke both of the guys arms just by blocking the punches. :shock:

That's not the kind of martial system that I would describe as "crap", but unfortunately the kind of scam artist schools that you're talking about are everywhere and guys like my old teacher don't advertise in the local yellow pages. It's sad, but they're a dying breed. :(
Hehe... this is why I say 'most.'

There are some VERY skilled guys out there. I knew a traditional kung fu guy who had half his forehead ripped off when sparring by a guy using one of the 'clawing' techniques(very nasty scar too, he tries to wear a hat as much as he can). Then once when we were hanging out after work once and some drunk guy started hassling him because he looked at his girlfriend and when the guy went to push him he grabbed hold of his fingers and I'm pretty sure he broke a few on each hand, and then did an aikido-like takedown(not sure if it was aikido). He was pretty bad. This same guy went to the most popular martial arts school in my city with 2 broken toes(you get the first class free), and after sparring he was asked never to return because they said he was too rough in sparring.

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Post by phayze » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:41 pm

Ferris: fair enough. It sounds like we more or less agree over all, we just phrase the issue a little differently.

But enough about that. Let's talk about me. :lol It's my workout log, after all. :p

I decided to celebrate my 2 month "anniversary" (monthaversary? Lunaversary? Whatever . . . ) with a change in routine. I had to fiddle with it a bit before I got something I liked, but it's much simpler now:

Group 1: Shovel Forward, Fireman, Hindu Squat, slapshot, tuck bails
Group 2: Shovel to the Side, drive spikes, churn butter, pull weeds, chop wood

I just alternate between groups every N-day so I never do the same thing twice in a row.

I always start with a warm-up round of 5 reps and then I do sets of 10 of each movement on one side before switching to do sets of 10 on the other side - it just seems more efficient that switching back and forth all the time. I'll probably start playing with the 21/14/7 system next week. I'm still finishing with various push-up variations, the 5 Tibetan Rites and some zazen. Some day I'll get me one of those cool door-frame-mounted pull-up bars so I can mix that in, too. :D

I used to kneel for pulling weeds, but I realized that bending at the waist and keeping my legs straight would recruit more back muscles and allow a greater range of motion.

I left the hindu squats in there as a place-holder even though I'm still taking a break from them while my knee recovers from the lousy mood that it's been in. I've started doing 20 minutes on the bike Tuesday and Thursday, so I'm hoping that will help to straighten it out soon (I need the cardio anyway). I miss my squats! :cry

So, what's everybody else doing?
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Post by SaveFerris » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:21 pm

Hey phayze, can you explain the pull weeds to me? I would've asked what zazen was, but hey, google had me on that one.

Yea I'd like to one up you, and not only get a pullup bar but also a dipstation. However, those are quite expensive. This looks like a cheap alternative though... http://www.lifelineusa.com/products.cfm ... oductid=72
I like that one because it's a bit more versatile than just the doorframe mounted one(i think they cost about the same as well, depending on which one you get). You can put it in a door frame, take it outside and put it over a tree limb, take it down the park and put it over the jungle gym, anything. Probably get me one of those soon.



My workouts are...

M/W/F- Warmup with a stretch. Shoveling, chop wood, stoke the oven, the torch(no, I dont shovelglove everyday). The torch is something those nail benders do with there weaver sticks/whatever they use to lever. You grab the sledge in one hand and let it hang by your side, you pop it up to chess level with a powerclean-like motion and then press it up over your head and hold it for a sec in the same fashion the statue of liberty is holding it's torch(high over head.) Those, I've decided, are the only movements I like. Nothing else feels natural. Butter churns make my shoulders sore (not a DOMS-sore either). Drive fence posts is actually a good one, I just don't feel it's as effective as the others. I usually throw in maybe 5 of these. Right after sledge work I go straight into grip/forearm workout. I'll usually do 2 grip/forearm exercises like wrist roller, block weight, grippers, levering. I've decided on the the 'even weeks' on Monday and Friday I'll do pushups, with pulldowns/weighted rows on weds. The next week, I'll switch and do the lats on monday/friday, and pushups on weds. I also try to hit the elliptical machine for about 20 minutes after I've done my resistance workout. At the very end I'll do a couple bicycles, ab wheel, or decline situps(I usually pick 1 and do 2-3 sets). I try to stretch out again, and then I take a shower. A real good MMA strength and conditioning coach told me that taking a shower after a workout, alternating between hot and cold several times helps to flush out lactic acid and helps in recovery time, so I do that.

On Tuesdays and Thursdays I try to take a 40min walk. I'll also do some type of leg work at the end. Usually bootstrappers, lunges or just plain bodyweight squats. I've been experimenting with overhead squats and I think I'm onto something good with them. I think once I'm doing 90lb overhead squats I'll add those to after the sledge work. Overhead squats will get both the legs and the core, so I'll take out the ab work at the end of the workout. I'll also take the cold/hot shower when I'm done on these days.

So yea, that's pretty much what I'm doing. I think here in a month or 2 after I get more used to the shovelglove movements, I'm going to go and buy a 10 and 12 pounder and start doing a Heavy-Light-Medium style program(same rep scheme each time, just mondays it'll be 20 or whatever reps with the 12 pounder, and on the light fridays i'll do the same workout, same amount of reps just with the 8 pounder) on M-W-F.

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Post by phayze » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:00 pm

Sure thing: Basically "pull weeds" is a bent over row with a kickback at the top of the motion. Imagine bending over to pull weeds and then tossing them behind you. I originally called "starting the mower" before I added the kickback - I ramble about it some on the first page in this thread.

Oh man, I've been wanting a dip station too! I've considered trying to make one from whatever I can find at the hardware store (it's amazing what you can find there when you have a twisted perspective on the world), but I just don't have anywhere to put one right now. Counter-balancing might be problem unless I could bolt it to the floor, but I don't think my wife would approve of that . . .

The Jungle Gym looks pretty cool! I like simple, versatile workout devises that don't take up a lot of space . . . kind of like a sledge hammer. ;) Like most things that I see for sale, I have to wonder what it would cost to make a hardware version, though. This could make for another great "confusing people at Lowes" story. :lol

It sounds like you've got a pretty good routine worked out, there! I always think about getting up earlier to including more stuff in mine, but I'm just not a morning person, and 20 minutes is all that I can put into it right now. I want to start working my handstands so that I can get into handstand pushups, but that probably won't be until after this semester is over - I've been neglecting my class work as it is!
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Post by SaveFerris » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:50 pm

phayze wrote: Oh man, I've been wanting a dip station too! I've considered trying to make one from whatever I can find at the hardware store (it's amazing what you can find there when you have a twisted perspective on the world), but I just don't have anywhere to put one right now. Counter-balancing might be problem unless I could bolt it to the floor, but I don't think my wife would approve of that . . .
Ya know.... I would really LOVE to buy a welder sometime when the money permits.

I also just realized, if you made some tall parallettes they could serve easily for dips, AND you could make them out of stuff at lowes. http://celtickane.com/projects/parallettes.php
phayze wrote: I want to start working my handstands so that I can get into handstand pushups, but that probably won't be until after this semester is over - I've been neglecting my class work as it is!
You're sick if you can do handstand pushups. I've only actually seen them done once, by a gymnast. I've seen people able to do them if they lean their legs against the wall, but it's far less impressive.

What kind of classes are you taking, btw?

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Post by phayze » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:11 pm

Haha! I was thinking the same thing about the paralettes - I got the idea from Beast Skills.

Sick is the goal. ;) I'm sort of thinking of the list of tutorials on Beast Skills as my "to do" list, so I figure I'll start with the handstands and work my way down. When I do theatrical combat I like to compensate for my small stature by emphasizing my speed and agility, so ultimately my goal is gymnast-type fitness and skills. I'm pretty good at tumbling and I'm reasonably flexible, I just need to develop the strength and coordination. It's a long term goal, though . . . Very long term!

I moonlight as a philosophy/religion student when I'm not chained up in my cubicle. This semester I'm studying "Women in Religion", and the theological writings of C.S Lewis. My focus is on eastern religion, though.
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Post by david » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:00 pm

A very secure pull-up bar in a doorway with the addition of a pair of Elite Rings has served me very well for pull-ups, chin-ups, dips, body rows, ring push-ups, etc. My daughter, who at 7 years old has practiced gymnastics for over half her life, now uses the rings as much as I do. We are in a constant battle for chin-up supremacy in our house!

--david

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Post by phayze » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:04 pm

Mmmmm . . . riiiiingss . . . . I don't know what it is that I find intimidating about ring training, but it just makes me want to get some even more!

That's pretty funny about your 7-year old - Paternal Chin-up Showdown!
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Post by phayze » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:55 pm

Monthly update time!

Last week didn't go so hot for me and my hammer - Tuesday and Thursday became honorary S-days on account of intense sleep deprivation and a major surge in TMJ-related pain (mental note - go back to chiropractor). I'm so ashamed! :( :oops:

On the bright side, I'm off to a good start this week, and I'm determined to make it hold.

I started to get a little bored with my labor union songs that I've used as a timer since I started, so I set up a new playlist that goes like this:
Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood - Santa Esmerelda (10:37)
The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove - Dead Can Dance (6:15)
Thoughts of Never - Merle Watson (2:46)

Kind of schizo, I know, but the songs each represent a different phase of the workout - Shovelglove/clubs, 5 Tibetan Rites, and meditation respectively. There's a little overlap depending on how quick/slow I'm moving, but in general it comes out pretty close. The rhythms get progressively slower and more mellow with each tune, so it helps to bring me down into each new phase.

In general I'm feeling good, and looking good - and I'm not the only one who's noticed that bigger, harder muscles and flattening belly. :D
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Post by phayze » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:19 pm

It's been a rough month for me, what with changing weather, changing clocks, and the mad rush to prepare for Halloween (which I declared as an S-day, partly because I was up until midnight on the 30th making costumes!).

I only mention this because when I started working out early this year one of my secondary goals was to look good in this:

Image

Personally, I think the suit came out better than my attempts to inflate my arms, but I'm still pretty happy with it. :D (That's the lovely Mrs. Phayze on the left, btw).

I have to admit to skipping one or two days in October, just because I was too tired to trust myself with that hammer and I've been getting a little . . . I don't know what the word is . . . maybe complacent? The honeymoon with SG is more or less over, and even though I'm still enjoying it I haven't been getting enough sleep to get really enthusiastic about it lately.

But I'm ready refocus my efforts and start pushing again. I just signed on with a Japanese Swordmanship Club, and that's got me really excited about learning a new skill and given me some incentive to push myself again. Swinging a wooden sword for 2 hours will beat the crap out of your arms, and shugging is great conditioning for it! :D

Now I just need to get into a decent sleep cycle!
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Post by phayze » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:34 pm

Another month down, huh? Damn, this year's been going by fast . . . . :eek

At any rate, November went better than October as far as motivation goes, but there were a couple of lost days due to muscle strain. That pesky habit of pushing myself too far keeps popping up . . . On the bright side, though I'm back into hindu squats! Jasoncscs' discussion about patella tracking and ITB tightness in another thread lead me to this stretch, which I now do a couple times per day. It's really made a difference for me! I'd say that my knee is back to about 90% of where it should be. Thanks Jason!

My current routine is looking something like this: shovel over the shoulder, chop trees, churn butter, hindu squats and a move that I call "Moulinets"* 5 days/week, alternating randomly between sets of 7 and 21-14-7s. Sometimes I'll throw in a "No Repeats" day just for the heck of it. I dropped the 5 Tibetan Rites because I just didn't feel like they were intense enough, and I want to get the most out of my time here. I usually end with bridges (gymnast and wrestler styles), a few dynamic stretches and sometimes some pushup variation if there's still time. After that is the 2 minutes of breath meditation to cool down.

With the semester finally winding down, I'm starting up a supplementary bodyweight-centered workout (learned a lot here) for use on Tues., Weds. and Thurs. afternoons when I'm home alone and need to distract myself from the fridge. For now, that involves Handstands, divebomber pushups, hindu squats, planche conditioning and some Japanese sword drills that I'm learning. Assuming that Santa doesn't bring me one, I'll be getting one of those door frame pull up bars that I've been lusting for after New Year and work in some pullups and hanging leg raises. Timing wise, I'm giving myself a little more to work with for this routine, because I'm still developing it, but I hope to compress it into the same bite-sized 20 minute chunk that my shugging fits into. It's going to take some experimenting to determine the best sequence and rep count.

My poor little ghetto clubs are getting dusty in the corner, but sometimes I hold them while doing hindu squats (really screws with the balance and gets some deltoid work in there). They're getting a little loose in places, so I'm a bit nervous of swinging them around as fiercely as I did at first. I'll probably make another attempt at a design before reintegrating them into my routine.

That's all I've got shaking for now. Keep on shuggin'! :D

* that's french for "little windmill" if memory serves correctly. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it's based on a kind of sword flourish. and looks something like drawing a figure 8 with the head of the weapon. It probably looks a little kayaking, too . . . . if I ever get a camera, I'll make a vid of it.
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Post by reinhard » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:14 am

Sorry I missed your last update... you look great!

Oh, wait.... you're the dude... you still look pretty good :-).

We need gootube for Moulinets! Given the original inspiration, all the moves should have French names.

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:55 pm

hahaha! Yeah, maybe I should have posted a solo pic to avoid distraction. :p

Thanks for the encouragement, R. I still have a lot of work to do, but I feel pretty good about how this new system feels so far . . . even though I probably did push a little too hard yesterday (big surprise).

I'm not generally a big fan of French, but I think you might be onto something! Probably wouldn't help any with the problems we all seem to have with naming new moves, though . . .
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Post by phayze » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:12 pm

And thus a new year begins . . .

I had a shocking revelation last week when I stepped on a scale - I'm about 5 pounds lighter than I thought I was, which is not such a good thing considering that one of my goals for the past year was to gain weight via muscle. I'm not sure if the last scale I used was just wrong (very likely since it was in a heavily used University gym), or if I actually lost weight, but either way I was pretty dismayed by it. I know, I know . . . you're all trying to lose weight and don't want to hear about it. :p

My routine is in a major state of flux this week while I try to figure some stuff out and reorient to focus on my goals. I've also been on vacation since the 22nd, so I haven't touched the hammer except to put it in the closet when we had guests over. Got to ease back in and try not to start '07 by ticking off that grumpy right bicep of mine.

Happy New Year, everybody! Here's to another year of 14 minutes a day!
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Post by Marc1 » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:44 am

Alright mate!
If it's weight gain you're after, then you can't go much wrong with the addition of a home made meal replacement drink to your diet.
Milk, dried milk powder, banana, spoon of peanut butter and a yogurt (I have added soft boiled eggs in the past also). stick it all in a blender and away you go. The beauty of this is you can add/remove foods to increase the protein/carb/fat ratio and it tastes great :)
Keyboard Warrior :)

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Post by phayze » Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:47 pm

Thanks for the advice, Marc! The shake sounds pretty tasty, but being a vegan I'd have to make a few soy-based substitutions. ;)

I haven't made them for a while, what with having enough holiday calories from all the festive food, but my wife created a pretty tasty recipe for protein bars. Basically it's a 12oz package of silken tofu, 2 or 3 tablespoons of peanut butter, 2/3 cup of flour, a teaspoon or 2 of flax seeds, 1/4 cup (give or take) of maple syrup, and I know there's some cocoa in there, but I can't remember how much. It might be another 1/4 cup. Bake it all for about 15 minutes and after they've cooled that have this lovely, creamy texture. They're okay warm, but refrigerating over night really brings them to their best.

Damn, I'm going to need to make a batch of these soon - I'm getting hungry just thinking about 'em!
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Post by phayze » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:44 pm

Well, that was irritating . . . I had almost finished up this post last night and decided to save it for later revision, but apparently thunderbird ate my draft! Not that this has anything to do with SG, but I'm getting a little annoyed with TB's weird behavior . . . if I didn't dislike MS so much, I'd go back to outlook. :p

Anyway, in keeping with my monthly tradition it's time for another update on my progress/routine. Recently, my outlook on fitness has been profoundly affected by Ross Enamait who has some really excellent articles on his site and a great forum community (in addition to a couple of books that I'd really like to have!). He's reminded me of the importance of balanced, sport-specific training for would-be athletes (or in my case would-be fighters). With that in mind, I've arranged my program thusly:

M Endurance - Shovelglove in 4-move cycles for 25 reps per movement (on both left and right sides), straight through with no rests. Lately I've been liking a Shovel -> Drive spikes -> start mower -> churn butter progression and usually I get through 3 cycles before the timer runs out. I think I could do more if I picked simpler moves - my preferred shoveling method is sort of a combo shovel/stoke the furnace (like shoveling coal into the boiler), so maybe that counts as an extra 25 reps per set? ;)

T Max Load - Bodyweight calisthenics in 4-move cycles, all performed very slowly for 5 reps per set. My current progression is pushups (feet elevated 24") -> squats (I need to move on to the one-legged version - these are too easy) -> dips -> planks (an isometric core exercise that I hold for 30 secs). Unlike with my SG routine, I rest for 30-45 seconds between cycles. I've managed 5 cycles, but 4 is more common - planks just take too much time!

W Conditioning - I'm still experimenting with conditioning drills, but I like HIIT in general. What I end up doing depends on my mood - tabata intervals on the bike, burpees, shadowboxing/floryshe, jump rope, mountain climbers, etc. Unfortunately, this day often becomes a rest day, because I'm still not sleeping well enough to maintain full activity all week, and despite it's importance I'm less likely to feel bad about letting conditioning slide than strength training at this point.

R Endurance - same as Monday

F Max Load - same as Tuesday

Rest on the weekends - except every other Sunday when I have Iaido class.

All of my workouts are timed with the same CD and last a little shy of 20 minutes, including my breath meditation at the end.

I've finally got my pullup bar installed, but the room it's in is being renovated so I haven't done much more than play with it. I'm hoping to get enough done in there this weekend that I'll be able to start doing pullups and hanging leg raises in next week's max load days.

Crappy weather has me feeling lousy in general, but I'm really getting to appreciate the different kinds of "burn" that I get from different training types. I need to decide on some standard of strength so that I can better measure my progress, but for now I'm feeling tough and I like it! :D
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Post by kayvan » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:50 pm

phayze wrote:Recently, my outlook on fitness has been profoundly affected by Ross Enamait who has some really excellent articles on his site and a great forum community (in addition to a couple of books that I'd really like to have!).
Thanks for the link to Ross's web site. His information and outlook is completely up my alley and very compatible with shugging. I've bookmarked his site and will be perusing it over the next few weeks.
Father, Husband, Writer, Software Geek.

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Post by phayze » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:40 pm

Glad you like it! There's a load of really great stuff in the articles section, and apparently that's only a taste of what's in his books.
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Post by reinhard » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:46 pm

Cool site. I've seen it before, probably posted to the board here somewhere.

I like this:
In my opinion, there is no need to progress past a 20-pound sledgehammer.
From:

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/sledge.html

Nice skin for his phpbb, too... one day I've gotta look into that.

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:58 pm

reinhard wrote:Cool site. I've seen it before, probably posted to the board here somewhere.

I like this:
In my opinion, there is no need to progress past a 20-pound sledgehammer.
From:

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/sledge.html

Nice skin for his phpbb, too... one day I've gotta look into that.

Reinhard
I thought you'd like that. ;) There are even a few shovelglovers on his forum, though most of the hammer-fans smack tires around instead.

I like the skin there, too. Black on white hurts my eyes if I look at it for too long, so I have my desktop setup with grey text fields like theirs.
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Hammering a tire

Post by Kevin » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:42 am

I haven't chimed in on this recently, but hammering a tire is great exercise, more aerobic, much less muscle-pumping. I don't do it during the Winter (my basement has 7-foot ceilings and my wife would put me out), but during warmer months, I use a tire quite frequently. It has a completely different feel than SG.

Try sometime. It's a nice adjunct.

For a while there, I was considering proposing an EDS called "Tire Iron", but I didn't want to post a variation that might be a little too derivative of the SG theme.
Kevin
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"Respecting the 4th S: sometimes."

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Post by phayze » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:29 pm

A little early, but it's time for my monthly update once again.

I have an embarrassing confession to make though . . . I haven't shovelgloved in a month. :(

But don't judge me too harshly until you hear me out. As much as I love SG, I didn't feel like it was getting me where I wanted to be fast enough - like any junkie, I was looking for the next big high. And that's when we happened to spot . . . it's almost too humiliating to say . . . an infomercial. *sob* It was totally my wife's idea!!

P90X is a surprisingly well constructed fitness program (especially considering the cheesy marketing machine that it comes out of), and oddly enjoyable. It's shameful to admit doing it because it literally flies in the face of almost everything the SG stands for - it was expensive, takes up about an hour everyday, and requires some special equipment like weights/bands and a pullup bar (but I had that anyway). I won't go into details for fear of sounding too much like the infomercial - if you want to find out more you can check out the website or ask me on your own. All I'll say is that it's serious stuff, and really pushes you hard!

I'm just too impatient to wait for slow steady progress, so I'm looking at it as a way to jump-start myself into kick-ass shape by working my skinny white butt off for a while, and then I'll step back a bit to a more schedule-friendly, homebrew routine (that will most assuredly include sledge hammers!). If all goes well, I'll be making an all new superhero costume for Halloween this year, and both the costume and I will look much more convincing! ;)

Oh, and Marc: I tried that smoothie recipe and it's awesome! I threw in a packet of strawberry Emergen-C for a little vitamin boost, too. Oh man, I look forward to that after my workouts! :D
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Post by reinhard » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:41 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Just kidding. Good luck with your new routine and keep us posted. Pick up a sledgehammer now and then and you can still think of yourself as a part time shugger.

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Mon May 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Wow . . . it's finally over! I survived P90X!

I won't say that my improvements were dramatic, but I understand why (it took me a good month to find my limits and push appropriately, which was a major limiting factor). Also, my diet wasn't quite up to supplying the demands of such grueling workouts until I made some changes at the end of the second month (nutiva hempshake = powdered awesome). If nothing else, I'm stronger now than I've ever been and I've learned an immensely valuable lesson: Don't underestimate yourself. You'd be surprised at what you can accomplish if you set aside your preconceived notions about your abilities and find your limits the hard way.

While I was wrapping up P90X I used the lessons learned from Never Gymless (excellent book, btw) to create a new routine that would probably be called complicated by Shovelglove standards, but is incredibly simplistic compared to what I've been doing.

I'll cut to the relevant bit and just say that SG is once again part of my workout life. In an effort to readjust to morning exercise and to keep moving while I recover mentally from p90x, I'll be shugging everyday this week in a very non-regimented manor (for example, today I did 21-14-7s of whatever moves popped into my head). It's nice to be back into something simple that doesn't dominate my daily life completely. Actually, I'm having a hard time adjusting to the idea that I don't have to spend another hour sweating my butt off tonight. I'm sure I'll get used to it though. :D

After this week it'll be onto a month or so of brief, but intense daily bodyweight workouts not to exceed a total of 45 minute per day, divided between two sessions - a 10 minute core or isometric "mini-workout" and a 30 minute strength/conditioning workout. I'll start with the minis in the morning and save the big stuff for later, but eventually I hope to do the full workouts early and whip-off the minis first thing when I get home in the afternoon (we'll see how that goes . . . I think I've mentioned before that I'm not much of a morning person).

After 4-6 weeks of kicking this cycle pretty hard I'll back off to another week of standard shovelglove to regroup and tweak my system.

Gotta say, it's good to swing that hammer again. :D
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Post by kayvan » Mon May 21, 2007 4:50 pm

Cool! You are looking good.

I'm happy to see you are around and to get your updates; it's inspiring to me.

---Kayvan
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Post by phayze » Tue May 22, 2007 12:20 pm

Thanks Kayvan! It's nice to know that shouting into the aether like this is doing somebody other than me a little bit of good. ;)
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Post by reinhard » Wed May 23, 2007 2:28 pm

Phaze,

Great to see you here again (x6)!

And it looks like you spent your time away productively. Impressive, congratulations!

Still, I'm glad the shovelglove is coming back into the picture.

Keep us posted and say hi to Peggy and Annie,

Reinhard

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Post by phayze » Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 pm

Thanks, R! It's good to be back. :D

The ladies say "hey", and congratulations on the book!
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Post by reinhard » Fri May 25, 2007 11:45 pm

Nice new site! I put the link on the interviews page.

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Post by phayze » Tue May 29, 2007 4:48 pm

Thanks, we appreciate what linkage we can get!

The site is still kind of rough, but with all this working out I haven't had much time to fiddle with it. iWeb has a weird way of making some things easier than I expect and other things harder than they should be. ;)
1 Picture = 1,000 words
0:01s Video = 30 pictures
therefore, 0:01s Video = 30,000 words

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