Twist motion

[Picklefish]

Hello,

New to shovelgloving and didn't have a clue how hard the workout would actually be ....I'm more than a little sore at the end of my first week. Should have gone for the 8 instead of the 10.


Anyway, I have been executing my chop wood motion like a golf swing - bringing the hammer back until my torso slightly twists...as you might if you were actually chopping wood. Kind of like this link below, without the follow through:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/inmag20.htm

I feel like I read on my initial few visits to this site, that twisting the torso with a shovelglove is a bad thing. Is this true or my imagination? Should I stop the motion short of the twist? Will the soreness go away? Will I stop feeling self conscious about swinging a sledgehammer around at the air? When will it stop being my own personal motor scooter?


Thanks

[gratefuldeb67]

Hello
It was probably something I wrote in past posts...
I'm a massage therapist, with extensive training in body mechanics...
Any time you are lifting a weight in a twisted postion, you are moving further away from your center of power, which, in Japanese, is referred to as the "Hara"....
That's your abdominal area... That roughly translates as your "Life"....
That's why when someone commits, Hara kare (sp?) they are taking their life.... And that's where the knife goes... Into the Hara....

Say you pick up a heavy box, filled with books... Try it with the box directly in front of you, only bending at the knees and keeping your spine straight...

See how that feels...

Then try to do the same lift with the box at your side where you are twisting, say, 45 degrees away from your midline...
You'll notice a big difference in how you feel, and how your back feels too...
By doing this you are increasing the pull of the weight by a substantial amount...

If you do chop wood, just do smaller twists and choke up on the sledge head much more... No injury is worth using poor body mechanics to be "macho"...
Also, slow down and make sure you don't hold your breath, as this only decreases your energy and causes muscles to tense up more than necessary... Respect any body signs that you receive as you are working at your slowed down pace... Going too fast will disconnect you from yourself... Then you will be much more prone to injury...
And yes, 8 minutes might have been better, but my guess is that if you go slower and more carefully, you can do the whole 14 minutes with no problem.. Just vary your moves and don't do ones that are too arduous until you build up some general strength..

Good luck!
Peace and Love,
Deb

[reinhard]

Welcome pickle, and sorry for the long delay. Hope I've delayed long enough that you're feeling all better now.

Deb knows a lot more about this than I do....so not a lot to add.

I haven't ever strained myself doing shovelglove to the point where I could feel it more than a day or two later, and I haven't even done that in ages. That being said, chop wood is one of the twistier moves, and for a while I didn't do it at all because I was suspicious of it. I now do just 14 very cautious reps. People do twist and have to twist in real life, so I figure I might as well (very carefully) prepare or it.

Reinhard

[JWL]

Glad to see someone else in Maine is shugging besides me and my wife.

I agree with Deb. Shovelglove DEFINITELY works your core muscles, and the subtle twists involved are a big reason why. Pay attention to what your core abdominal muscles are doing while you exercise. You'll find they are working hard....

[zachawry]

Hello
It was probably something I wrote in past posts...
I'm a massage therapist, with extensive training in body mechanics...
Any time you are lifting a weight in a twisted postion, you are moving further away from your center of power, which, in Japanese, is referred to as the "Hara"....
That's your abdominal area... That roughly translates as your "Life"....
That's why when someone commits, Hara kare (sp?) they are taking their life.... And that's where the knife goes... Into the Hara....

I'm a Japanese translator, and "hara" means nothing but "lower abdomen." That's it. Nothing to do with life. "Hara kiri" means "stabbing [yourself in the] abdomen," which means to take your own life becase that's what happens when you shove a sword into your gut. Nothing more glamorous or interesting than that.

Sorry, my pedantic side just takes control once in a while.

[phayze]

True, but in all fairness the center takes on greater significance than its literal translation in spiritual contexts. Hara is also the location of the sacral chakra, the center of gravity (which is important for martial arts and motion meditations), and is a major focus point in many seated meditations, particularly those centered around breathing. It's my understanding that many Asian religious practices see the Hara as the center of the hollistic being, just as it's the center of the physical body. I could be wrong though, most of my Japanese has come through Martial Arts teachers and books on Zen - I've forgotten a lot of what I learned in college Japanese.

I think things get lost in translation because pop culture in America sees all things Asian as being mystical, so the mundane translations don't usually come up for us.

[srbliss]

Hello,

I feel like I read on my initial few visits to this site, that twisting the torso with a shovelglove is a bad thing. Is this true or my imagination? Should I stop the motion short of the twist? Will the soreness go away? Will I stop feeling self conscious about swinging a sledgehammer around at the air? When will it stop being my own personal motor scooter?

Thanks

"I" twist a lot when I shugg and it doesn't hurt my (bad) lower back at all. It's one of the things I like so much about shovelglove. When I shovel I "scoop" then twist around about 120 degrees and "dump" the shovel. I also do the same motion with the "dumping" on the other side of me.
I don't think "shoveling" with a mere sledgehammer is going to take out your back if your back is healthy to start with - it's not at all like picking up a heavy object (like a car transmission) and then twisting.

[zachawry]

True, but in all fairness the center takes on greater significance than its literal translation in spiritual contexts. Hara is also the location of the sacral chakra, the center of gravity (which is important for martial arts and motion meditations), and is a major focus point in many seated meditations, particularly those centered around breathing. It's my understanding that many Asian religious practices see the Hara as the center of the hollistic being, just as it's the center of the physical body.

I've never studied Japanese martial arts, so I don't know how they use hara, but in Chinese martial arts (I've studied Taichi and Bagua) the phrase is "Tan-Dien," which is very different. That's the imaginary point about an inch below the belly button and centered between your belly and your back. That IS a somewhat abstract phrase, but again hara just means "tummy." The fact that that part of the body may be given special significance in meditation or martial practices says nothing about the meaning of the word used to signify the body part. Then again, like I said, I'm just being pedantic.

When I was studying Chinese martial arts in the States, I saw how the desire to mystify everything was a real hinderance to American students, and was a big reason the Chinese students made progress much faster. Chi or Ki to the Western students was like this great mystical deal, whereas to the Chinese students it was just a way to hit harder.

[phayze]

Haha! And hitting hard is gooood

I'm not real familiar with Chinese styles, just a little Qi Gong, but as far as I can tell hara is used in Japanese MAs and Zen pretty much the same way as Dan-tien. All the same, I get where you're coming from, I'm just saying that it's an easy thing for people to get wrong because we're more exposed to the exotic usages than the mundane.

Coincidentally, I've been wanting to brush up on my Japanese lately - can you recommend any good learning tools?

Oh, and just to get back on topic here - Yes, I think it's good to twist in your SG, but I do so cautiously so as to not over-twist. An ergonomist once told me that twisting motions were easily the most damaging to the lower back.

[gratefuldeb67]

I've never studied Japanese martial arts, so I don't know how they use hara, but in Chinese martial arts (I've studied Taichi and Bagua) the phrase is "Tan-Dien," which is very different. That's the imaginary point about an inch below the belly button and centered between your belly and your back. That IS a somewhat abstract phrase, but again hara just means "tummy." The fact that that part of the body may be given special significance in meditation or martial practices says nothing about the meaning of the word used to signify the body part. Then again, like I said, I'm just being pedantic.

Hi Zachawry! Something is awry here! LOL.. Heh heh..

I'm sure you are giving the precise literal meaning, according to a dictionary, for Hara, and thank you.. The "Life" comment I made is from my teacher who has extensive studies in Shiatsu massage and Zen philosophy, and was trained at the Ohashi Institute in NY.. I am sure the context of use is the key here.. While Hara may just translate, literally as abdomen, just as "Back" translates as that part of our body which is in back of us! I'm sure you will acknowledge that if someone said to you "Put your back into it" when doing some kind of heavy labor, they would be inferring much more than just that physical part of you...
And incidentally, the Dantien is a real thing, not imaginary.. It is where much of our life force dwells. It is energetic in nature, not structural like bones and muscles...
But just as real as they.. There's nothing mystical about it, just because it can't be seen.. The wind can't be seen.. It's real LOL..
Not trying to sound sarcastic here, but I just find it amusing how inaccessible these concepts are to most Westerners.
Chi is just energy.. Why people all of a sudden get the idea that it's less real than say, a bone in our body, always makes me laugh!
I guess it's just a lack of information..
Thanks for your posts

Arigato!
Debs

[david]

After decades of Japanese arts being practiced in "the West" the language barrier is still one of the biggest issues.

Hara just means "abdomen." A more precise term for what Phayze and Deb are talking about is "seika tanden" or "seika itten." Zachary never said that there is no such thing as hara, chi, ki, etc. He is just doing the important job of reminding us that it is important to be precise.

Here are some more fun ones from Japanese:

--"koshi" doesn't just mean your hip bones

--"kote" doesn't mean your wrist

--"kuzushi" doesn't mean to off-balance

There are dozens more. I have to fight this language battle on a daily basis. It isn't made any easier when people want to hang their need for mysticism onto concepts which are quite mundane in the native context.

--david

[phayze]

A more precise term for what Phayze and Deb are talking about is "seika tanden" or "seika itten."

Very cool - I was not aware of that. Thanks for correction, David!

I totally agree on the language barrier thing. I was just having a discussion in one of my philosophy classes about how eastern words can be difficult to transalte effectively into western languages.

[david]

It goes both ways. I wouldn't even know how to begin to explain to a Japanese or Chinese native speaker all of the ways we in the USA use terms like "ass" or "gun" or "guts."

--david