BrightAngel check-in

[connorcream]

Howdy,
One question, I am pondering is the accuracy of the calories posted for the foods. Are some sources, sites better than others? For now as I study this, I will let the scale be the arbiter, i.e. if I am losing weight slowly and somewhat steady, then the values are good enough. If there seems to be some confusion such as pork carnitas, I take an average of values based on recipes that are closest to how I prepared it. If there is a package, corn tortillas, I use their data.

Do you have an opinion?

[BrightAngel]

Howdy,
I am pondering is the accuracy of the calories posted for the foods.
Are some sources, sites better than others?
Do you have an opinion?

Connorcream
I don't think it makes much difference.
Unless the calories are listed on the label of foods I use,
I ordinarily use the calorie counts on my software food journal, DietPower
which comes from a National Base.
If it isn't there then I look at Calorie King, or some other online source.

I am doing the best I can to maintain my current weight,
or lose a few pounds.
The idea is just to do one's best to keep track of food intake.
It is impossible to be truely accurate for many reasons.

First, my measurements might not always be totally accurate,
for example, when I measure out 1/4 cup of dry oatmeal,
I fill a 1/4 cup as full as it goes.
The Oatmeal label says 1/4 cup equals x calories,
but it also says 1/4 cup is x grams...
Weighing out the grams shows that 1/4 cup is Less than full.
It is a very small difference, but these things can make quite a difference over time.

Another thing to be aware of is that the FDA only requires
food labels to be up to 20% accurate,
and we all know, they aren't going to show Less calories.
Furthermore, labels aren't regulated very closely,
and there is a difference in accuracy between companies.
The very large food companies tend to be no more than 20% inaccurate,
but the smaller, mom and pop, companies can easily have up to a 50% error rate.

What this means is, no matter how closely one watches one's calories,
one is not going to be PERFECTLY accurate.
However, careful weighing and measuring food, and keeping track in my food journal
gives me the best chance of knowing my calorie number.

Also, no matter what the Charts say my body's calorie burn rate should be,
if, over time, I gain weight on a specific calorie number,
I have to work to lower that number.

Maybe I'm taking in more calories than I know,
Maybe I'm burning less calories than I know,
Bottom line, if...over time...I consistently gain,
I have to...EAT LESS and work to move more.

[connorcream]

Maybe I'm taking in more calories than I know,
Maybe I'm burning less calories than I know,
Bottom line, if...over time...I consistently gain,
I have to...EAT LESS and work to move more.

I have come to this same decision too. At the end of the day, the scale will let me know if I am heading in the correct direction- whether that is calorie count, exercise, burn rate, etc.... This knowledge requires weighing myself on a regular on going basis. I think one of my problems was putting the scale away.

If I rely on the way my clothes fit, I can get overweight rather quickly. I certainly didn't lose.

Your thoughtful responses are so appreciated. Please know you and yours are in my prayers today.

[guadopt1997]

BrightAngel, I was looking at your little weight chart in your signature and wondered how you came up with a 10-lb range for your maintenance weight?

I'm with you on what you said about Marc's success: now the true work begins. In the past, I've dreaded reaching my goal because it would mark the beginning of my gain. I'm hoping this won't happen with NoS.

[BrightAngel]

BrightAngel, I was looking at your little weight chart in your signature
and wondered how you came up with a 10-lb range for your maintenance weight?

While in weight-loss mode, I participated in a diet forum of people who posted daily weights.
As a result of observing the behavior of others,
when I neared my goal weight,
I decided that it was important for me to set specific Goal weights,
and to make them extremely VISUAL.

I came up with my Weight Maintenance Chart,
which turned out to be a very successful way
to BURN those numbers into my mind and heart.

Over time, I learned that my body weight tends to bounce around
quite a bit due to salt/water/waste issues.
Three pound gains and losses are frequent,
Five pound deviations are not unusual,
and after a 3 day vacation I can have an 8 to 10 lb up-bounce,
most of which recedes after a week back to careful eating.
Due to this, I decided that I would like to have a 10-lb basic maintenance weight range.

The Charts gave my "Healthy Weight Range" as between 128-95 lbs,
and specifically 110 lbs as the most "Healthy" weight for my height and bone-structure.
I chose numbers within that range that were meaningful to me.

I set my permanent Goal number as 115 lbs.
and decided that 5 lbs above the top of that range would be "must lose weight".

I felt going too far below my goal weight would never be a problem,
however, I watched one of my 5'0" forum members who was maintaining between 110 and 100 lbs
get continually hassled by her family and other forum members
who were worried she was going to "develop Anexoria" and drop her weight too low.
My own family occasionally made remarks to me like when would I stop dieting?
So I decided to clarify my position by setting bottom goals as well.

Since the Charts singled 110 out as the ideal number,
and my lifetime secret fantasy was to weigh 105 lbs,
I decided to set a 10 lb maintenance range between 115 and 105 lbs,
which put 110 lbs as the middle position.
I then set the bottom 5 lbs of the "Healthy" Chart, which was 99-95 lbs,
as an automatic "gain weight" area.
I set any weight below my "gain weight area" 94 lbs, as Totally Unacceptable.
I set any weight above my "lose weight area" 120 lbs, as Totally Unacceptable.

I chose colors with meaning to me.
Blue for the Maintenance area, because it's my favorite color.
Green for the Acceptably lower area... like Go, it's okay.
Red for the Lose and Gain Weight areas...like Danger or Stop.
Black for outside the high and low Boundaries...like Outer Darkness.

I put all of that information into a small Chart to make it Highly Visual.
Primarily for myself,
but also so that others could easily see my Plan.
During the past 4 years, it has proven to be very effective.

[BrightAngel]

This is a copy of of post I recently made on a General Thread
that I am choosing to make a part of my Personal Thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My numerous attempts at 'vanilla' No S
(beginning April 2008)
have all been unsuccessful,
What I consistently find (even after long time-periods) is ..
the more I deprive myself on N days
the more I overeat on S days.
which locks me into a Binge/Fast cycle.

After participating in this forum for over a year,
and watching myself and others,
I suspect that people who cannot achieve 'success' at 'vanilla' No S
perceive themselves
as more deprived by some of the 'vanilla' no sweets/no snacks/ or no seconds limitations
than the people who 'succeed';
and/or
3 meals/no snacks/limited sweets doesn't seem 'natural'...
... sometimes because it never before was their personal lifestyle--even in childhood.

As a child in the late 1940s and throughout the 1950s, my family usually ate 3 meals a day
but they also snacked frequently,
and ate sweets whenever they were available, which was pretty much every day.
'vanilla' No S feels 'unnatural' to me, similiar to many other diets.

The National Weight Loss Registry is a non-profit organization that is conducting research
on weight-loss maintenance of those who have lost at least 30 lbs and kept it off for years.
(I've been participating in the study for the past 3 years).
Their data shows that the vast majority of those people who keep off lost weight have certain factors in common.
One high percentage factor is that they don't treat eating on weekends as different from weekdays.

What seems to work best for me is to make certain
that I choose to follow only the No S principles
which do not trigger extreme feelings of deprivation for me,
and at present I personally, have "S" events whenever appropriate,
and don't have "S" days each weekend.

For many, many years of my life while obese,
I dieted on weekdays and binged during weekends.
That practice was a Habit of much of my Adult Lifetime.
and as you know, Habits are harder to Break or Repace than to Form.
I am very fond of Reinhard's Habit concepts.
and his ideas have led me to do quite a lot of research on Habit.
At this time I am working to establish and maintain positive eating Habits,
although they are not 'vanilla' No S,
they do involve some No S concepts.

Success is available
One just needs to figure out what will work specifically for her/him
and follow through.

[connorcream]

Howdy,
Thank you for your posts.

[BrightAngel]

Below is a link to a very interesting and informative Thread
which I discovered inside a Maintenance forum.
I think anyone who reviews the comments within it will find them helpful.
I am posting it here for easy access.

http://www.3fatchicks.com/forum/living- ... nance.html

I have also posted this link in the Discussion Forum,
so if you have comments about it,
instead of posting that comment inside this personal Thread,
please make them in the following NoS Discussion Thread.
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5793
Thanks.

[BrightAngel]

Below is a copy of a post I made on a General Thread,
but is a Thought that I feel is important enough to copy to my personal Thread:

I, personally, think that "total freedom" every weekend
is no way for most obese people to lose or maintain weight.

The NoS restrictions: "sometimes" and "don't be an Idiot" are vague.
Also, if those of us with a long history of obesity, could follow: "sometimes",
and could avoid being "Idots" around unlimited food...even for 2 days every week,
we would not have continual weight-problems.

NoS may bring some people psychological relief,
but the ultimate measure of success of any weight-loss eating plan (diet)
is whether or not it brings physical relief--i.e. weight-loss.

My own observation over a couple of years here on the forum is that
while "Vanilla NoS seems successful for rather disciplined "overweight" people,
most "obese" people, while using it,
can barely maintain their starting body-weight or drop 10% of their body-weight and maintain that loss.
I would rate this kind of maintenance or limited weight-loss for an obese person: "helpful", but not "successful".

[BrightAngel]

Great imagery for those of us who are familiar with the following reaction.

Hunter Gatherer wrote:
I have mostly gotten past the
"No! I failed! Now I must fail the rest of the day too"!

---the open mouth, insert stack of punishment cookies,
mushy chewing noises of distress and much wailing
reaction--- was a tough one to beat.

Today I am willing to take another shot at establishing a
Zero Snacking Habit.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .January . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . Success . . . . .Failure. . . . . S-Day. . . . .

Day One: 1/18 - Monday. . . .Results: Success
Day Two: 1/19 - Tuesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Three: 1/20 - Wednesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Four: 1/21 - Thursday. . . .Results: Success
Day Five: 1/22 - Friday. . . .Results: Failure
Day Six: 1/23 - Saturday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Seven: 1/24 - Sunday. . . .Results: S-Day

Success

Failure

S-Day

[connorcream]

I am rooting for you to be successful in this Habit attempt

[connorcream]

Howdy,
I meant to get a PM off to you but I found out today that the dinner party parameters with 3 other couples and our pastor has changed significantly which is Jan 29. It went from, we just need a place to host it, to the caterer is super cheapo and the help they should be providing, they aren't, and it is falling to me to salvage the evening as the hostess. The pastor is also my daughter's boss.

This comes a week before the major fundraising Gala at our son's highschool on Feb 6 which I chair logistics. I hope this isn't too much information on your personal thread. But it would take something this big to derail me from posting on your insights.

A nice bene is having the menu ahead of time for both events and thus to plan the calorie count. Hope your snack habit is going well.

[BrightAngel]

This week I am willing to continue to work at establishing a
Zero Snacking Habit.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .January . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . Success . . . . .Failure. . . . . S-Day. . . . .

Day Eight: 1/25 - Monday. . . .Results: Success
Day Nine: 1/26 - Tuesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Ten: 1/27 - Wednesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Eleven: 1/28 - Thursday. . . .Results: Success
Day Twelve: 1/29 - Friday. . . .Results: Success
Day Thirteen: 1/30 - Saturday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Fourteen: 1/31 - Sunday. . . .Results: S-Day

Success

Failure

S-Day

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,

Are you one of the participants in the National Weight Control Registry who has lost at least 30 pounds and maintained it for at least one year? I'd be interested to know what you have learned from it.

For me, personally, "unconditional permission to eat" on S Days is critical. I went months with gorging myself, but now I am not up to what I used to do because my body just didn't like how I felt afterwards. Today was an S Day for me, and I did eat a lot, but "a lot" is not the same as having 4 Haagen Dazs bars in two hours or 4,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters in 24 hours. My stomach just churns when I think about those excesses.

I am speculating that the way people react to vanilla No S has a lot to do with how they were controlling their weight prior to trying this. The more insane the prior approach(es) and the longer they were practiced, the longer it takes for an S Day not to be idiotic. I went more than a year with idiotic S Days, but I spent 33 years in various types of disordered eating, from counting 1,000 calories per day to eating only after a stomach growl to the cabbage soup diet to Weight Watchers and on and on and on. I was always either on a diet, about to go on a diet, or bingeing after a diet. Dieting simply dominated my life. No S normalized my eating, but it took a lot of time.

Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

Are you one of the participants in the National Weight Control Registry
who has lost at least 30 pounds and maintained it for at least one year?
I'd be interested to know what you have learned from it.

Yes, I joined that Research Project about 3 years ago.
Once a year, Participants fill out long, long, long, forms they receive.
The only knowledge gained comes from reading research findings
. . . .which are available to all. . .
and from paying attention to the type of questions they ask in their forms.

[connorcream]

Today, I went to see our son who was admitted into the hospital. He was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease, age 20yrs. Many thoughts are going through our minds but the one that pertains to this forum is one of gratitude for learning how to use a food journal.

BA, again I must credit you for this tremendous help. I am so glad I have found this Habit to be easy and self sustaining. I need only to monitor my caloric intake for weight loss. Our son will need to monitor everything- calories, fiber, protein, moods, triggers, water, exercise, etc... The nurses were very interested in online journaling as a tool in manging this chronic disease.

Fitday is where I am sending him first. The apps I use have nutrition detail but not as precise as Fitday. I am also thinking about Diet Power as it tracks nutrients. He has a PC so he wouldn't have a Mac problem.

BA, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[BrightAngel]

Connorcream,
I'm pleased that sharing my Life Experiences and resulting point of view has been helpful to you.
I'm sorry about your son's problem.
My adult children have also had many Life difficulties, so I can empathize with your situation.

[BrightAngel]

This week I am willing to continue to work at establishing
a Zero Snacking Habit.
Because I will be on a four-day-vacation at the end of this week,
I have chosen to make Thursday and Friday "S" days.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .February . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . Success . . . . .Failure. . . . . S-Day. . . . .
Day Fifteen: 1/25 - Monday. . . .Results: Failure
Day Sixteen: 1/26 - Tuesday. . . .Results: Failure
Day Seventeen: 1/27 - Wednesday. . . .Results: Failure
Day Eighteen: 1/28 - Thursday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Nineteen: 1/29 - Friday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Twenty: 1/30 - Saturday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Twenty-one: 1/31 - Sunday. . . .Results: S-Day

Success

Failure

S-Day

[BrightAngel]

Well, at this time I see I am still not ready to totally let go of Snacking.
However, since Reinhard's Habit Concept still inspires me to establish postive Food Habits,
I am working to make a Habit of my
Personal Systematically Moderate Food Plan
I enjoy tracking my 21 day success/failure in this manner.
So here is Week One:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .February . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . Success . . . . .Failure. . . . . S-Day. . . . .

Day One: 2/8 - Monday. . . .Results: Success
Day Two: 2/9 - Tuesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Three: 2/10 - Wednesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Four: 2/11 - Thursday. . . .Results: Success
Day Five: 2/12 - Friday. . . .Results: Success
Day Six: 2/13 - Saturday. . . .Results: S-Day
Day Seven: 2/14 - Sunday. . Valentine's Day. .Results: S-Day

Success

Failure

S-Day

[connorcream]

BA-
I am looking forward to your successful habitual efforts. Best wishes with whatever you choose to do.

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,

That is interesting that you are part of the NWCR. I had a physical in summer, 2008 at a weight of 211 and last summer at a weight of 199. I am determined to become part of the registry no matter how long it takes me! My goal is to follow a program which requires minimal effort but allows for sustainable long term maintenance of a lower weight, and I think I've found it!

I have read some of the summaries of what characterizes those who lose weight for the long haul -- like walking about 28 miles per week (something like that), weighing yourself daily, and eating breakfast every day. I'm wondering if you have insights into what you've learned from reading the research. Thanks!

Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

I'm wondering if you have insights into what you've learned from reading the research.

Some of the research findings are as follows:

Most of all maintainers continue eating a low-calorie, low-fat diet with high levels of activity.
Women reported eating an average of 1306 calories a day.
78% eat breakfast every day.
75% weigh themselves at least once a week.
62% watch less than 10 hours of TV per week.
90% exercise, on average, about 1 hour per day.
Despite using different methods to lose weight, individuals who lost weight on their own, through an organized program, or with a liquid formula, use similar behavioral strategies to maintain their weight loss.

Participants who reported a consistent diet across the week were 1.5 times more likely to maintain their weight within 5 pounds over the subsequent year than participants who dieted more strictly on weekdays. A similar relationship emerged between dieting consistency across the year and subsequent weight regain. CONCLUSION: Dieting consistency appears to be a behavioral strategy that predicts subsequent long-term weight loss maintenance.

Successful weight loss maintainers consume a diet with limited variety in all food groups. Restricting variety within all food groups may help with consuming a low-energy diet and maintaining long-term weight loss.

In studying two factors 1) an "internal" factor that described eating in response to internal cues, such as feelings and thoughts; and 2) an "external" factor that described eating in response to external cues, such as social events.
Results suggest that it is eating in response to internal cues that is associated with poorer long-term weight loss outcomes.

To maintain their weight loss National Weight Control Registry members report engaging in high levels of physical activity ( approximately 1 h/d), eating a low-calorie, low-fat diet, eating breakfast regularly, self-monitoring weight, and maintaining a consistent eating pattern across weekdays and weekends. Moreover, weight loss maintenance may get easier over time; after individuals have successfully maintained their weight loss for 2-5 y, the chance of longer-term success greatly increases. Continued adherence to diet and exercise strategies are also associated with long-term success.

My personal behavior fits into the majority.

I eat low-calorie (averaging between 1000-1200 daily).
This makes it necessary for most of my food to be low-fat.

I eat breakfast daily.

I weigh myself every day.

I do an average of 1 hour of low-impact exercise every day.

My eating is fairly consistent,
in that my food and calories are about the same
on weekdays and on weekends.

Although I feel that I eat a large variety of foods,
my limitation or elimination of many high-fat foods and restaurant meals
has probably resulted in me having less food variety
than that consumed by the general population.

I seldom watch TV unless I do it while exercising
on my Treadmill, free-style Gazelle, or stationary bicycle.

I generally eat in response to external cues
(i.e. mealtime, portion control, amount of calories in food etc),
rather than internal cues
(my moods, subjective thoughts, feelings and personal judgments about my appetites and hunger levels etc.).
My experience and research has taught me that my body wants to be obese,
and in order for my mind to keep my body thin,
I need to rely on specific eating cues that are both objective and external

For the past 5 1/2 years, I have also recorded
all of my food every day into a computerized food journal.

So far, I have maintained a weight-loss of 81 lbs, from 271 to 190
for almost 17 years, (post gastric-bypass net loss) and

an additional weight-loss of another 75 lbs, from 190 to 115
for 4 years.
(via calorie counting and using a computerized food journal daily)

From 271 to 115 lbs
means that for the past 4 years, I have maintained a 156 lb weight-loss.

[connorcream]

I do an average of 1 hour of low-impact exercise every day.

This is a key component for fitness and one I struggle with the most. I am finding it very difficult to work this into my schedule in a sustainable manner. The rest of ideas I have found to be much easier to incorporate than I thought it would be.

BA- gratis.

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,
Thanks for the information! What strikes me most about what you wrote is that you rely on external cues. The Intuitive Eating approach is to have a person rely on internal cues -- an "epic fail" for me! I like The No S Diet approach of setting up external cues which are easy to follow. Now that I'm done tweaking the diet, I'll see what a year brings. It's encouraging that my over the top Exception Day eating has diminished.
Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

This is a copy of a Post on the Main Discussion Thread,
but I want this information in my personal Thread as well.

I like the way this article helps one visualize
the actual way that the amount of food on a plate
differs between food choices.

http://www.dailyspark.com/blog.asp?post ... _look_like

This is a good example of what I've been talking about
when I say it is necessary for many people,
....especially smaller, older women...
to limit the types and amounts
of food they choose to put on their plate.

Some additional Portion Control is necessary
for many women to lose-weight or even maintain their weight.
The No S diet has good basic rules,
but it isn't MAGIC.

[BrightAngel]

I am working to make a Habit of my
Personal Systematically Moderate Food Plan
Week Two:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .February . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . Success . . . . .Failure. . . . . S-Day. . . . .

Day Eight: 2/15 - Monday. . . .Results: Failure
Day Nine: 2/16 - Tuesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Ten: 2/17 - Wednesday. . . .Results: Success
Day Eleven: 2/18 - Thursday. . . .Results: Success
Day Twelve: 2/19 - Friday. . . .Results: Success
Day Thirteen: 2/20 - Saturday. . . .Results: Success
Day Fourteen: 2/21 - Sunday. . . .Results: Success


Success

Failure

S-Day

[connorcream]

Howdy,
(All for the Black Eyed Pea) On the Daily Plate Grilled Salmon is 382 cal while on Diet Facts it is 625. This is a large discrepancy. I was looking up cal for Grilled Cajun Fish which was 626 (which was too high and saw the daily plate suggestion of the grilled Salmon because it is lower in calories, 382). However on Diet Facts it is same calories as the catfish.

I will be going there with family on Friday and is my habit, I figure out my meal ahead of time and not at the table.

What do you think? Which calorie count would you trust?

[BrightAngel]

What do you think?
Which calorie count would you trust?

It is always important to remember that Calorie Counts are ALL estimates,
even when they are written on menus and labels.
Restaurant food varies, and calorie estimates are often very inaccurate.
If I don't have the exact calories of that dish, in that restaurant,
I usually go with the high calorie estimate of a similiar restaurant.

An additional site shows:
1 full portion of "Blackened Salmon" at Red Lobster is 565 calories

The calorie difference in your data would probably be due either to
oil in preparation, or a portion size difference, not the spices used,
unless it is includes a breaded preparation.

1 oz of baked (no added fat) Salmon is about 55 calories,
so starting from there,
I, personally don't order food that is breaded.
I'd figure I'm going to eat a 4 oz portion of the serving
which usually turns out to be about 1/2 of the total serving.
(I take my little travel food scale with me)
4 oz x 55 = 220.
At most restaurants I'd add another 100 calories for the oil they're going to cook it in,
although I would ASK for it to be grilled.
So, since a reasonable personal calculation would be around 320,
of food prepared in that manner,
I'd have no problem eating a 4 oz portion and using that lower calorie value of 385.
If it turns out to be breaded and fried, then I'd use the higher calorie value for a 3 to 4 oz portion
(which seems to normally weigh out at about 1/3 to 2/3 of the actual order).

Good Luck with whatever you choose.
We are always better with calorie counting, even though all totals are truely estimates.
One reason for this, is....
how do we know how to Eat enough Less to lose weight,
unless we really know exactly how much we are already eating?

That is one problem I have with "vanilla" No S.
If you are eating two plates of high calorie food,
then one plate is an improvement.
However, one plate can still be even more than it takes
to keep you the same weight,
and, if one continues to eat the same type of high calorie food,
it might take 1/4 of a plate,
or 1/8 of a plate,
or even less to actually cause weight-loss.
Calorie Counting is a much quicker way to get there.

A site I use frequently for restaurant food estimates is:
http://www.dietfacts.com/fastfood.asp

[connorcream]

A site I use frequently for restaurant food estimates is:

I went to this site and it was higher than dailyplate. i knew you used Dietfacts frequently and dailyplate is also reputable, so I found myself in a quandry.

I totally agree about the most important thing is tracking. How can one know to eat less, if one doesn't know what less is for their own body.

EVOO is great nutritionally, takes up very little space on a plate, and packs a powerful punch calorie speaking.

Thank you for your qucik and generous reply. I am of the viewpoint, I do not like my vacations following me home- either monetarily or weight wise.

[connorcream]

Bright Angel-
Do you use calipers for measuring body fat? If so, which brand is used?

As always, I am so grateful to your wise posts:-)

[BrightAngel]

Bright Angel-
Do you use calipers for measuring body fat? If so, which brand is used?

At present I find myself to be personally uninterested in body fat percentages.
Several years ago I purchased a Tanita Ironman scale that has the ability to give a bodyfat measurement.
I also bought some inexpensive calipers.
Those measurements determined that my bodyfat percentage is in the "healthy" range,
but I understand that it is hard to get any kind of accuracy outside of those underwater tests (I've had friends do those).

For myself, I find such measurements to simply be a waste of my time.
I can tell that my body is fit by how I feel.
I'm not a bodybuilder, and not trying to get "ripped" or "lean".
When I eat less than I burn, my weight drops, and when my weight drops, my bodyfat percentage is less.
I can see that with my eyes, by looking in the mirror.

[connorcream]

Howdy,
When I got a new scale for Christmas I got a Tanita. I looked at the body fat measurements, and like you, realized this was a highly inaccurate measurement. DH concurred as well.

I then started reading posts about being skinny fat, BMI that still pointed to health problems though the weight was in a healthy range. Finally, as I approach my goal of 160, I am reassessing that number in light of these concerns. So using calipers as some have suggested would be a better assessment of my body fat composition than a scale or water tests.

The thought I have though, is what if caliper 9 point measurement shows I have an unhealthy BMI, will I be willing to devote the time necessary to do something about it, assuming of course, that I can do something about it? The answer at present is no. It would impact my full life too much.

As of now, my body feels awesome. I expect this to get better as more weight is lost. I enjoy the exercising I do. Like you, I have no interest in being "ripped". Not that I really could if I wanted to:-)

On a personal note, DD was accepted into law school this fall. With her BS in Chemistry she hopes to be a patent lawyer. Nice part is her DH's job will be able to cash flow the expenses, and they are nearby with grandbaby:-)

[connorcream]

Howdy,
I will be making your oatmeal pancakes this week, maybe even tomorrow morning. If you have other low calorie recipes you enjoy or posted, or a website you visit where I could browse, would you mind sharing it?

As always, any time you take to post is much appreciated.

[BrightAngel]

If you have ... a website you visit where I could browse,
would you mind sharing it?

Yes, I'm sending you a private message about it.

[connorcream]

I made your oatmeal pancakes. Delish. The batter looked a bit strange, but it cooked up beautifully. I added a pinch of cinnamon to the batter.

For me, I need to add 1/2 tbs of real maple syrup to the sugar free syrup (made with Splenda).

Your in my recipe collection:-)

[connorcream]

Dear friend,
Whenever I have a question you are so willing to answer in a thorough and straight forward manner. There 2 concepts which have me puzzling causality and correlation.

At times I am finding it very difficult to sort out if my deficit or excess calories cause a weight loss when I overlay it with my hormonal cyclic pattern. I am very much of the opinion that over time, a calorie deficit produces weight loss, regardless of how one achieves this deficit.

But the question then becomes, is this a deficit for my body at this time?

I will give a concrete example, this past weekend the family went to the coast for a family retreat. Menu is fixed and geared to children as there are a lot of them. My daily goal is 1300 cal. On Saturday, I ate 407 over and Sunday I ate over 244. Knowing this weekend was coming up, and the type of meals to expect, I ate under but still came in over 231 calories for the week. These few calories do not account for an almost 2# increase (that would need to be over 5,000 extra which I didn't eat).

On Monday, the scale shows a 1.8 # increase. Today I am already back down .8#, for an overall gain of a pound. Water drinking to flush the probable excess sodium in the diet. And I am not even bugged by the spike up because I know it will come down over time as it has in the past.

The question is rather, how do I know, and perhaps one can't know, if this increase is due to the foods or rather my cycle, or maybe it is a combination of both. And so I wonder if I graphed my weights, overlayed with both calorie counts and cycle variations, would this give me better insight into how my body works both monthly and over time? I have all the data necessary to compile these graphs and am just not sure if I did so, would it give me any useful data to implement.

And I wish every success to you on your journey:-)

[BrightAngel]

The question is rather, how do I know, and perhaps one can't know, if this increase is due to the foods or rather my cycle, or maybe it is a combination of both.

And so I wonder if I graphed my weights, overlayed with both calorie counts and cycle variations, would this give me better insight into how my body works both monthly and over time? I have all the data necessary to compile these graphs and am just not sure if I did so, would it give me any useful data to implement.

I believe that you are correct when you say "perhaps one can't know"

Even though the general scientific rule is "3500 calories = 1 fat lb",
that doesn't mean this loss (or gain) immediately shows on the scale.
Although, with effort, we can control what food goes into our body,
we cannot control what our body does with that food...
and the timing of how fat is lost is a very large part that we cannot control.
I'm sure you understand that our bodies are always shifting water about,
and the majority of our lean body weight is actually water.
Also, our bodies don't always react the same ways,
and just because we achieved the same result a few times,
doesn't mean the same behavior will always result in the same outcome.
I've found my predictions can be accurate IN GENERAL, but frequently are not SPECIFICALLY accurate.

Furthermore, even with careful weighing and measuring of food,
carefully reading all labels, along with the careful daily recording of our food,
all calorie counting is STILL only an ESTIMATE.
We do the best we can.
But labels can have a 20% (or more) error,
the sugar count of fruits etc. can vary from season to season,
and there are often individual differences in the way we measure,
and the way the food company measures.
For example, I measure 1/4 cup of oatmeal as a level 1/4 cup,
but when that is compared to the gram weight on the label,
I see that the listed gram weight is the same to an amount that is below the rim of 1/4 cup.

Therefore, we do the best we can to measure and record the calories in what we eat,
but we must be aware that this is NOT an exact science,
and most of our errors tend to be underestimates.

Regarding graphing data.
I have a great deal of personal data about my own calorie intake,
and my body weights etc.
I enjoy making graphs of that various data,
and am always looking for new ways to look at the data,
hoping that this will help me to spot something new.
But the key words here are "I enjoy".
I find it an enjoyable pastime, but it isn't necessary,
and it really isn't all that helpful except to keep me focused on the issue.

Although I am responsible for my Behavior with food,
I am not responsible...and have no control...over the Results that my body gives me,
including the timing of the weights I see on the Scale.

[connorcream]

Regarding graphing data.

I find it an enjoyable pastime, but it isn't necessary,
and it really isn't all that helpful except to keep me focused on the issue.
[/color]

This is the spot on advice I have come to depend on with your insights. I am not sure if I have the time at presen if it doesn't have actionable items. However, I can see me benefitting from this exercise in other ways. Then I am intrigued with seeing if there is a correlation between calories, cycle, weight and timing.

Thank you for your thoughts. I will mull this over with DH as well. I am ever glad I count calories. I will never go back to ignorance in this area ever again. Never, ever, ever.

[BrightAngel]

Below is a copy of something I posted on another Thread,
and I am also posting it here for easy reference.

Food and money have a great deal in common.

A specific amount of money goes into my bank account each month,
and that is the amount of money I have to pay my bills and meet my needs each month.
If I want to save up for a trip or a treat,
I have to budget my money, and do without spending the amount I need to save.
Frequently I also feel like spending more money than I have in my bank account,
I have that choice. There are ways I can accomplish this.
But, making a choice to spend as much as I want,
will lead to negative consequences . . . making my life difficult to deal with.
The fact and situation will not change, even though I may hate it.

AND

My body uses a specific amount of food each day/week/month,
that is the amount of food I need to put into it.. . .
and if I want to reduce my size,
I have to eat LESS food than my body uses to create an energy deficit.
I can choose to live within my energy allowance or not.
Frequently I also feel like eating more food than my body can use,
I have that choice.
But, making a choice to eat as much as I want,
will lead to negative consequences., i.e. even more stored fat.
The fact and situation will not change, even though I may hate it.

As a mature adult human being, I know that frequently I simply can't have my own way.
This is true of spending money, and of eating food.
There has to be some form of self-regulation...with both money and food.

Personally, I think that if one chooses not to count calories,
following the NoS plan is a good way to self-regulate food...on "N" days.
I'm still not personally convinced that "N" day Habits do bleed over
into "S" days for Obese and formerly Obese people,
but they might.

However, even one Bingeing "S" day a week,
can easily provide the body with more energy than one's body can use in that entire week.
To give NoS a Chance, one needs to actually follow it. . .
including eating no sweets, snacks, or seconds on "N" days,
and eating only 1 plate, 3 meals a day.
Over time, it will also be necessary to pay attention
to the type of food one puts on each of those 1 plates.

Re Hunger. . .I am also familiar with the Intuitive Eating Concept.
However, Actually, physical Hunger is a rather unimportant issue because
one's stomach (and one's brain) quickly becomes used to
being fed a certain amount at a certain time,
if the amount and the time are consistent.
There are "stretch receptors" in one's stomach,
and if one eats an equal volume 3 times a day,
one's stomach (and brain) will adapt to that amount and timing.
Physical Hunger is a problem easily resolved,
and is rarely the actual cause of either Overeating, or Obesity.

[connorcream]

When I started CC, I too was struck by the similarities to money. I thought the plate like my cash envelopes which I use very successfully. However, I neglected the budgeting aspect of how much can I afford (burn) and how much do things cost (calorie counts of items I was eating (spending).

Gaining for me over time was quite easy to do. I never binged, never ate in the middle on the night, appreciated my snacking need was squashed, ate healthy (olive oil, avocadoes, whole grain bread, organic this and that). Coupled with ditching my scale, the isle of denial was where I lived. Today the weather was warm and pretty put on my cparis, the one that I couldn't even button 5 months ago, and they wer falling down, baggy, and I was happy. BA gratis.

Assuming 3500 cal= 1#, I gained 12# over the course of 18 months. This is on average 77 calories a day more than what my body needs. This could have been the sugar and half and half in my coffee (organic of course). The apple fritter on S day, the muffin on another S day. It is amazingly easy to eat more than what my body needs.

I will put this in my own thread as I ate my fair share of calories today and I will not wale on the scale tomorrow.

[connorcream]

Great job on your down bounces. You worked hard for them and it validates your thoughts on successful weight loss.

[BrightAngel]

Great job on your down bounces.
You worked hard for them
and it validates your thoughts on successful weight loss.

Thanks,
I am very happy to see some positive Results,
but, as always, I work to remember..
My Behavior -- my Effort --is my responsibility,
while my Results -- my Outcome --is not within my control.

[connorcream]

My Behavior -- my Effort --is my responsibility,

That is the fundemental question, what behavior do I need to be responsible for to achieve whatever (in this specific case weight loss)?

Great thoughts to mull over.

[Nichole]

I love your post from April 3 and completely agree!

[BrightAngel]

My Behavior -- my Effort --is my responsibility,

That is the fundemental question,
what behavior do I need to be responsible for
to achieve whatever (in this specific case weight loss)?

My Take...
General Behavior is simply controlling the food that one puts into one's mouth,
and the movement of one's body,
i.e. Eat Less, Move More.

Specific Behavior depends on one's individual food plan.
It is any personal behavior that causes less food to go into one's mouth
i.e. Less than the amount that one's body uses.

As related to No S,
Behavior that is "Vanilla" No S would be 3 meals a day, no snacks, no sweets,
no seconds on N days.
Each meal consisting of 1 plate containing a calorie amount that will create a calorie deficit,
even after the entire week's calories are averaged to include all exceptions that occur on S days.
Behavior that is Modified No S, same thing only implementing the modifications.

Simple, but not easy.

[connorcream]

Each meal consisting of 1 plate containing a calorie amount that will create a calorie deficit,

Creating the calorie deficit, in whichever manner one choses, is the rub. I find it a moving target, and I have not yet suffered a plateau. Sodium, hormones, varying exercise levels, all contribute (some to a larger degree than others).

I am still guessing if I eat less than 1300, this will lead to weight loss over time. When my weight remained stable for a week or so, I started to wonder if I needed to adjust my calories down. I zig zag my calories. Not that this is planned but it is how my eating patterns have worked out. So I am keeping an eye on averages both weekly and monthly. But I really wasn't sure if I was eating a deficit or not during this time.

The strategy I think that will help me to lose weight over time, is to the best of my ability record accurately what I eat and weigh whenever I am at home. At least it will keep me out of the isle of denial. Also I enjoy reading posts of successful maintainers:-)!

I am looking forward to visiting Monterey and environs next week with family. Glad to have my apps for portable calorie inputting.

[connorcream]

Simple, but not easy.

A thought occured to me, maybe I am still new at this counting habit. With increased time and ongoing weight loss success I will become confident of my calorie goal which then will make observing simple.

[BrightAngel]

Creating the calorie deficit, in whichever manner one choses, is the rub.
I find it a moving target, and I have not yet suffered a plateau.
Sodium, hormones, varying exercise levels, all contribute (some to a larger degree than others).
I zig zag my calories.
Not that this is planned but it is how my eating patterns have worked out.
So I am keeping an eye on averages both weekly and monthly.
I record accurately what I eat and weigh whenever I am at home.

You describe my own situation.

In my own case, I've now been doing this long enough to have a great deal of data.
I find it necessary to average out my weekly, monthly, and yearly calorie averages,
--both my daily calories and my daily weights--which tends to "smooth" out the data.
This gives me what I call my "stabilized" weight and calorie amount.

This "stabilized" number is what I use
when I try to figure out the calorie number that I hope will create a deficit.
However, my own experience tends to confirm
that when one's body gets into its "normal" weight range,
it has remarkable adaptive powers to keep from losing additional weight.

[BrightAngel]

On another Thread, someone said:

I hate hate hate being fat -- hate the impact on my life --
hate the time sink that trying to lose weight has become.
It's as if this weight loss project is draining the life out of me

I understand and sympathize with this feeling.
I, personally, found that changing my Beliefs,
resulted in a change in my Feelings and my Behavior.

First, I had to Accept
that I was fat;
that I was fat due to my eating behavior;
that there is something permanent inside me that causes this,
that I will never be "naturally thin",
that I can only become and stay normal size through constant effort,
and all of those things are Okay.

Since the entire process is always going to be a large part of my life,
I had to change my Beliefs and my Attitude about the entire process.
I now choose to believe:
Obsessed is what the weak and lazy call the Dedicated.

It was necessary for me to Embrace my entire weight/food-Issue
and learn to enjoy dealing with it.
I've talked a little about this before.
I no longer waste my time and effort wishing things were different,
or in trying to "Eliminate" my "Problem" with food.
I've learned to view Dieting as an enjoyable Hobby,
one that takes a lot of my time and effort,
but which, in return, gives me many enjoyable hours.

This has resulted in helping me to achieve fat loss,
but it has also emotionally put me in a better place,
making me feel more contented with myself and my life.

[BrightAngel]

I'm posting my comments and some responsive ones that were posted on another Thread,
because I think it may give some additional insight to people who are interested in my point of view.

Obsessed is what the weak and lazy call the Dedicated.

Here's my Opinion.
Lighten up. Food Obsession is okay.
Personally, I have no desire to reduce my own "food obsession".

I'm the kind of person who really gets into anything I do, any interest I have.
So what if I'm not "normal" around food.
So what if food, and issues around food, are important to me.
So what if I spend a lot of my time thinking about food and/or weight.
I'm not going to waste my life shaming myself because of it.
Food is just as important or interesting as anything else...
....in fact it is the one thing that is vital for life to exist.

Just because a "saying" is old, doesn't make it right..
I think "Eat to Live, not Live to Eat" is just a BS Value Judgment.
It really is just another way for people who don't share my values to negate them.
Am I REALLY going to let that part of Society legislate my morality?
No.

Very interesting perspective, Bright Angel! I've always felt shame with my obsession with food. I guess I shouldn't, though. I've bee eating much healthier since I found No S.

Acceptance of oneself and one's personal interests apply generally,
in that much of modern Society now has a "live and let live" morality,
or "do what you want, as long as you dont' hurt others" ...
....but it makes a BIG EXCEPTION
about allowing a fat person to feel okay about food and their fat,
and it generally agrees that it's okay
to tell a fat person how they are SUPPOSED to feel and behave,
and to try to shame them into feeling guilty for what is natural to them.

Just watch one episode of the current hit, The Biggest Loser,
and see Society's current value judgments about the obese contestants.
Notice how the obese contestants buy into those negative BELIEFs about themselves,
and how they state their belief that unless they are thin, they have no life.
Notice how they feel they deserve the ill treatment they get on that show,
including severe verbal abuse...and even what I call physical abuse.

Then, when they lose weight, notice how they are encouraged
to become missionaries to the world
and work to convert other fat people to their new beliefs.

Society in general, finds it acceptable for people to be obsessed with
exercise, sports, television shows, video games, hobbies, work, money,
shopping, relationships, family, sex, parenting, vacations, etc. etc. etc.
But, God Forbid, that anyone should feel okay about being obsessed with food.....
ESPECIALLY, if that person is overweight, obese, or very thin...
Only a "normal" sized female can acceptably demonstrate a stong interest in food...
and even that Acceptance is very limited.

BrightAngel, what you said really resonated with me too. I no longer make myself feel guilty for thinking about food or planning my meals. So what, its completely natural!

You are right, people are obsessed with so many things like cars, sport, shoes etc. I don't see why we're made to feel guilty about being obsessed with food ( as long as it's in a positive way).

Obsessed is what the weak and lazy call the Dedicated.

Here's my Opinion.
Lighten up. Food Obsession is okay.
Personally, I have no desire to reduce my own "food obsession".

I think it's okay, PERFECTLY OKAY, for you to choose to dedicate as much time as you do to being thin.

But, I would be very, very grateful, indeed, if you do NOT imply I am lazy and weak because I do not put the same amount of dedication into manipulating my body shape, okay? I'm glad you've achieved a difficult goal. I'm not trying to run you down.

But I'd appreciate the same courtesy and respect about my goals, understand? I do No-S BECAUSE I do not want to put that level of energy into being slim. I want to control my eating habits, and let my body do what it's going to do.

Different goals =/ lazy or weak.

Noel, that Quote is not mutually-exclusive to food issues.
Dedicated, not Obsessed, could be an extreme interest and focus on Anything at all.

Terming someone as "Obsessed" is generally a negative value judgment
concerning the extreme interest and focus of another,
while terming such behavior as "Dedicated" is generally a positive value judgment.

The above quote simply returns another negative value judgment label...
..."weak and lazy" back onto those people
who label a person with an extreme interest and focus: "Obsessed".

I don't believe the quote implies disrespect to those with differing goals,
and I see the quote as very simple and clear,
so I find it surprising to see such an interpetation.

I don't believe the quote implies disrespect to those with differing goals,
and I see the quote as very simple and clear,
so I find it surprising to see such an interpetation.[/color]

Weak and lazy is disrespectful language, and it encourages a smug and self-satisfied attitude.

I'm not ragging on you, personally. Please understand and I don't want to hurt your feelings or be disrespectful to you in any way. It's that labeling like that can be dangerous, whether it's about weight loss, being able to pump iron, or being able to learn several languages. (And if you want smug, listen to a group of very intelligent people who haven't learned empathy talk about great unwashed masses sometime!)

I grok the frustration when you've accomplished a goal or learned a skill and get negative behavior that is motivated by envy. I sew all my own clothes, and can do several other things that will get an "Oh, I couldn't do that" response. Or WORSE, "Must be nice to have the time to learn that."

It's EASY to get angry and reactive to it, turning it into a rather defensive pride. I could be wrong, but I am reading in your posts a great deal of frustration at public reaction to your goals and the level of focus they take (I could be off base, but that's how it reads to me).

I see that a Quote that I very much like, and quoted within this Thread
has somehow deeply touched you in a negative way.
This was not my intention.

With all due respect,...
....regarding me, my motivations and my attitude, you are wrong.
However, I have no need to convince you otherwise.
This is a forum where each of us is free to express our thoughts,
you have the right to yours, just as I have the right to mine.

Although I have not in any way attacked you personally by sharing my thoughts in general,
I feel that you have responded to me personally in quite a negative way.
At this time, I think it would be best for us to both end this dialogue between us.
This will be my last post to you on the subject within this Thread.
If you think a personal conversation between us would be helpful,
please feel free to PM me.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I am making one more final post on this subject
because of a PM I received from a different forum member,
who also strongly objected to the terms "weak and lazy"
which are inside a famous statement that I quoted in a prior post.

Everyone doesn't appreciate the same kind of humor,
and everyone doesn't "get" every joke.
The famous saying:

"Obessed is what the weak and lazy call the Dedicated"

as an amusing, rather clever "return put-down" to negative people
who label those with an excessive interest and focus in any subject
as "Obsessed".

The point of the quoted statement is that terming anyone "Obsessed" is totally unacceptable.

In this saying,
the negative label: "lazy and weak" only applies to those people
who GIVE the negative label "Obsessed"
instead of a positive label like "Dedicated".
i.e. IF YOU THINK I'm "obsessed", THEN I THINK you're "weak and lazy".

I can see how someone who feels it's acceptable to refer to someone as "obsessed",
could be offended by the return insult "weak and lazy",
however, I don't see why anyone else would be offended
by a statement which simply returns one insult for another in an amusing way.

I didn't create that famous saying, I merely quoted it.
It is, however, one of my favorites. I think it's funny, and I like it.
Probably because I've dealt with negative people who term a strong focus as "obsessed".
It could be that some people have to actually have that experience
before fully appreciating the "black" humor within the statement.

The saying is essentially an amusing twist of semantics,
and like any kind of humor...
if one just doesn't "get" a particular joke,
an explanation of that joke still doesn't make it funny to the one needing the explanation.

"Obessed is what the weak and lazy call the Dedicated"

I have had a lot going on the past few days (all centered around food of some sort) and haven't been able to post. But I have been mulling it over.

This quote is one of my all time favorites, others can have different ones, because it has helped me attain incredible successes. My dad liked it and found it meaningful for him.

BA, I feel like a harpy always agreeing with you, but so be it. I have really been thinking about your thoughts on eat to live or live to eat. Something that has been thrown around a lot in my DH's family. It always bothered me but I didn't know why really.

You clear, precise, post showed me the value judgement I was reacting negatively to. Living to eat is perfectly fine. We do copious amounts of traveling and always spin in a history component. Most recent was visiting Carmel Mission and surrounding areas. Thinking, planning, planting, storing food has been part of the human condition regardless if there were times of plenty or not, regardless of locale or not. To act like food has no attraction seems counter to this pattern.

[leafy_greens]

Bright, I am trying to go back and read some of your posts that you suggested. I noticed how you said you are "very sad when you finish" a meal. As am I. You come to a realization - there is no more! This is a hard reality to deal with. You only have to wait about 6 hours for a meal, but the end of the meal seems like it's going to be your last meal ever. But there will always be another one around the corner.

I can also relate with having a hard time with 3 meals - "eating too much" and then "feeling ravenous." It's hard to eat enough to carry yourself over to the next meal, and then control yourself once the hunger pangs hit. I hope that with time on this plan, I will just become used to it, as will you. I have struggled with giving myself "enough" food to last 6 hours. But it's hard to eat too much when you are only using one plate.

"Without snacking I feel hungry all the time," is also true for me. My mouth hunger is insatiable. I need to retrain myself to not equate mouth hunger with eating. I think this can be overcome.

You mention eating 3 very restrictive meals on N-days to make up for the S-day bingeing. I think it might help if you allow yourself to have your S-days, and then eat normal, high quality unrestrictive meals on N-days, to help break that cycle. I think that eventually you will find balance.

[BrightAngel]

Anyone who wishes to contact me is welcome to PM me at any time.
Anyone to wishes to post a positive comment to me
here on my personal thread is welcome to do so.

Before posting any other type of comment here,
please become familiar with my point of view
by reading my prior posts which are contained within this thread.

[BrightAngel]

I think that eventually you will find balance.

RE: No S Balance:
I find that "vanilla" No S tends to activate the "binge/fast" cycle for many people,
and my observation over the past couple of years, has been that,
time alone, does not seem to stop "IDOT" behavior for obese people who tend to binge.
It seems clear to me that these people need additional eating restrictions on "S" day eating.
Reinhard makes some good suggestions on some modifications that might help this problem.

RE: My personal Balance:
Personally, I accept that my emotions I feel around food, and
my struggle to eat appropriate amounts of food,
are simply part of my normal life.
I also acknowledge and accept that Maintaining my large weight-loss
will always take a high focus and a great deal of effort.
I do feel I am already "balanced" here in my 5th year of Maintenance...
...in that I have achieved a Lifestyle that I enjoy.

[connorcream]

Dear friend-

I weighed in at 156 today. Last time I was this small was 4 years ago. Thank you for posting, for without your wisdom I would be obese by now with all the problems that brings.

Have a marvelous day. I need to find awesome emoticons like yours.

[BrightAngel]

I am posting this link here on my personal Thread for easy reference.

Here's an article that is in this month's "The Atlantic" magazine:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... esity/8017

Over43,
Thanks for sharing that article.

One is seldom able to read such an accurate dipiction of the issue within a single article.
The author was well-informed;
had an excellent intellectual grasp of the issues;
and extensive personal experience,
which gave his expert opinion an enormous amount of credibility and value.

I have bookmarked it in my "favorites".

[BrightAngel]

Breakdown of Diets – Ways of Eating

I’ve been thinking a great deal about the essence of Diets.
The term “diet†is defined as Habitual Norishment.

The term “calorie†is the term used to measure the energy value inside food,
i.e. the unit equivalent to the energy-producing amount of food when oxidized in the body.
In order for the human body to become a smaller size by losing bodyfat,
that body must take in less energy than it uses.

I have read hundreds of diet books, and been on many, many weight-loss diets.
Each of them is simply a variations of a way to “EAT LESS and MOVE MOREâ€.
I’m going to share some thoughts about this here.
Then later, when I find the time,
I plan to share some further personal insights on this matter.

It seems clear to me that there are essentially 3 issues involved in all Diets,
One main food issue, AMOUNT,
and two sub-issues, KIND and FREQUENCY.

• AMOUNT -- of food eaten –
  
  KIND – fundamental nature (micronutrients) of food eaten .
  
  FREQUENCY of eating food.

RESTRICTIONS:
All Diets involving weight-loss or maintenance of weight-loss
place restrictions on one or more of those 3 food issues.

AMOUNT –
can involve either DIRECT or INDIRECT restriction.

Some Examples of DIRECT restriction involving AMOUNT include:

• Counting food calories with the goal of staying near a certain number.
  Counting food points.
  Portion control – eating a specific size of a food substance
  Counting bites
  1 plate, no seconds (as in No S)
  Meal size restrictions – i.e. large Lunch, other meals smaller, etc.
  Variation of Amounts on alternating days-QOD, JUDDD, Calorie Cycling, 5 Bite Diet
  --------—which are actually blends with the Frequency issue.

INDIRECT restriction involving AMOUNT
involves restricting the KIND of food eaten, and/or the FREQUENCY of eating food.

KIND –
involves DIRECT restriction of KIND,
resulting in an indirect restriction on the total AMOUNT of food calories.
DIRECT restriction of KIND usually involves a shift in the balance of the intake of various food miconutritions.
Reduction of KIND frequently involves a flavor/taste reduction resulting in less overall food intake.

Some Examples of restriction involving KIND include:

• Sweets Restriction – reduction of the intake of sugar, resulting in an additional reduction in fat and other carbs such as flour etc
  Fried Foods Restriction – restriction of cooking method resulting in a reduction of the intake of fat miconutrients.
  Low-fat –overall reduction of the intake of fat miconutrients.
  Low-carb – overall reduction of the intake of carbohydrate miconutrients.
  High-Protein – increase in protein along with reduction in carbohydrates.
  Food Exchanges – Divisions of foods restricting intake of specific foods containing specific miconutrients,
  resulting in a reduction in total intake.
  One example: Dividing food portions on one’s plate such as: ¼ protein, ¼ starch, ½ complex veggies and fruit.
  Food Combinations – Divisions of food intake involving specific combinations of micronutrients
  at specific times (includes a frequency factor) resulting in a reduction of overall amount.
  High-fiber – reduction of the intake of miconutrients with low-fiber.
  Vegetarian – restricting animal proteins
  Liquid – restricting solid foods.
  Organic or No Processed Foods – restricting foods containing various chemicals
  Raw – restricing cooked and processed foods
  Low-sodium – reduction of foods containing salt, less flavor resulting in less overall intake.

FREQUENCY –
involves Direct Restriction on eating FREQUENCY,
resulting in an indirect restriction on the total AMOUNT of total food calories.

Some Examples of restriction involving FREQUENCY include:

• 3 meals each day, with no snacks (No S)
  3 meals and 2 or 3 snacks per day.
  6 small meals per day ( or 4 small meals per day)
  All snacks, no meals
  zero food – i.e. water fasting
  No eating after dinner.
  Eat only before sunrise, and after sunset
  All eating to be within a certain time period a 5 hr daily window (Fast -5)
  24 hr fast – No food after 5 p.m. until 5 p.m following day (EatStopEat)
  Alternate day eating – (QOD, JUDDD)
  Intutitve Eating eat when hungry stop when satisfied/before full.

[BrightAngel]

Breakdown of Diets – Ways of Eating - Part 2

As I stated above, I’ve been thinking a great deal about the essence of Diets.
The term “diet†is defined as Habitual Norishment.

It seems clear to me that there are essentially 3 issues involved in all Diets,
One main food issue, AMOUNT,.
and two sub-issues, KIND and FREQUENCY.

• AMOUNT -- of food eaten –
  KIND – fundamental nature (micronutrients) of food eaten .
  FREQUENCY of eating food.

RESTRICTIONS:
All Diets involving weight-loss or maintenance of weight-loss place restrictions
on one or more of those 3 food issues.

My careful study of many different diets has revealed some things to me..
things that might be obvious to others, but which took me some time to figure out.
I’m still not certain about all of them, but here are a few “insightsâ€.

Each author of a diet book usually claims to have used that diet him/herself, and had excellent weight-loss results from it.
I tend to believe this is true. What this proves to me is that there are a great many different ways to lose weight,
but that what all of them have in common is EATING LESS.

EATING LESS, of course, means…not just eating less than one ate in the past while gaining weight,
but also eating less than the amount of one’s normal (maintenance) energy burn.
This, of course, is where it gets sticky..
...because all of the rules one finds in the Expert’s charts and graphs are simply Generalizations.

People are different.
Male and Female, Tall and Short, Large and Small, Young and Old,
Sedentary and Active. Each of these categories changes a person’s basic energy use.
In addition, Genetics vary between people,
and even being a “reduced obese†person changes energy use.

The Diet Books show that there are many different ways to accomplish EATING LESS.
All of these ways involve reducing the “calorie†amount of a person’s food intake.
This can be done Directly, or Indirectly. I discussed many details of that issue in my previous post.

Most of those diet book authors who have created Diets, appear to have structured his/her version of Eating Less
on his/her personal preferences regarding the three fundamental restrictions which are listed above.
Those Diets appear to be based on that diet book author’s eating preferences;
his/her viewpoint and morality, including values about food; and the general way he/she tends to live his/her life.
These personal lifestyle choices usually involve that Diet in additional matters
which are sometimes rather unrelated to the basic food-substance-as-nourishment issue.
These differences between people’s preferences are reflected as different eating style choices
inside each of the diets they have created.

I will illustrate this point by providing some Examples soon, when I have some additional posting time.

[Kathleen]

BrigthAngel,

I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed your analysis of dieting. You cover restriction by what you eat, when you eat, and how much you eat as the three major types. I also wanted to add that I also tried restriction by how I eat (chew each bite ten times, always put your fork down between meals, eat without reading or watching TV or other distractions, etc.). I used the books The 7 Secrets of Slim People and Slim Chance in a Fat World for ideas on how to reduce the amount I eat by limiting how I eat). It was quite a failure. Anyway, I'm seeing that I the only restriction I can tolerate is restriction based on when I eat. The No S Diet isn't restrictive enough, which is why I'm adding intermittent fasting as a way to further reduce how much I eat by restricting when I eat.

I look forward to your examples.

Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

the only restriction I can tolerate is restriction based on when I eat.

All Diets seem to be based on the originator's eating preferences, including food values.
These differences between people’s preferences are reflected as different eating style choices
inside each of the diets they have created.

Based on your above statement, it appears that successful dieting, for you,
would be primarily based on the issue of "FREQUENCY".

I view specific “mindful eating†behavior modifications, of “How†one eats,
……such as putting your fork down, chewing food thoroughly,
eating only at the table, not engaging in alternative activities while eating etc…..
merely as one of the many subsections
which can be found within each of the three basic Ways of Eating,
rather than as an independent “Wayâ€.
I don’t view this behavior as a separate “Wayâ€
because this issue more closely relates to the specific etiquette of eating,
which can be used as a way to force oneself to pay more attention to
the AMOUNT, the KIND, and the FREQUENCY of one’s eating.

Re several personal "diet author" EXAMPLES that I'd like to provide as illustrations of my Theory,
I'm giving a great deal of consideration as to exactly how to do that in an inoffensive manner.
Due to those reflections, it may be quite some time before I post on that topic.

[Kathleen]

Hi BrightAngel,
Well, I do look forward to seeing the examples when you post them. I did get a chuckle out of your saying "how" is a subset. It sure didn't work. I followed these rules when I was at my in-law's house, and the next day my husband told me that his brother had asked him if I'd had enough of the Queen Anne cherries. Following those rules had done nothing to reduce the amount or type or frequency of the food I ate, but it did loosen my self-control to the point that I hadn't realized I was being an absolute pig!
Kathleen

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,

I thought this excerpt from Ultra Fat to Ultra Thin was relevant to your discussion of different ways to maintain a lower weight:

"So how do you go about eating to lose weight? In short, you need to gradually implement changes that aren't overwhelming and that you can stick with. Because what acts as a stressor varies from person to person, there is no one solution for everyone; it's up to you to find out what works. This means experimentation, which can entail doing odd things or making small changes (which you will later add to as they become ingrained)." (p. 215)

Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

"So how do you go about eating to lose weight?
In short, you need to gradually implement changes
that aren't overwhelming and that you can stick with.
Because what acts as a stressor varies from person to person,
there is no one solution for everyone;
it's up to you to find out what works.

This means experimentation, which can entail doing odd things
or making small changes (which you will later add to as they become ingrained)." (p. 215)

I completely agree.

[BrightAngel]

This post is a copy of a post I made within the general forum regarding "Food Addiction".
I'm placing it here for easy reference to my position.
Please direct any responses you may wish to post on that General Discussion Thread,
or PM it to me,
as I don't wish to make this personal Thread a General Discussion area.

I, personally, don't care for the term "Food Addiction",
but my own experience, my observation of others, and my intellectual research
does bring me to the conclusion that many people have certain general "food sensitivities",
which differ in intensity between specific individuals.
Here are some comments I recently made on another Thread that I think are relevant to this subject.

A book that should not be missed is:Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes,
which contains exceptional research on the History of Obesity/Dieting.
He is a journalist specializing in scientific controversy,
with two impressive prior publications, one of which is on physics.
My recollection is that he has a physics degree from Harvard,
an engineering degree from Stanford, and a journalism degree from Columbia.

Although the "mainline" has not accepted his ultimate conclusions,
all factions appear to be quite impressed by his superb synopsis
of his 7 years of researching the past 150 years of obesity/dieting Research.
Some find it a bit of a "hard read". It ends with a Bibliography of about 100 pages.

However in his University Lectures, he hits the book's main points.
This Dartmouth lecture (7 parts) last summer is interesting.
It is very similiar to his UC Berkley lecture the previous year, and just a bit shorter.
That lecture can be found at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGV9VOOtew

For some time I've been mentally debating about
the psychological vs. the physical issues of Weight-Control.
In fact...I'm leaning toward it actually being a "physical" issue rather than a "psychological" issue.
Certainly weight control, for me and for many others, requires specific food behaviors,
but is that requirement primarily due to physiological causes NOT psychological causes?

I tend to be personally prejudiced against Atkins and low-carb eating,
based on my own food preferences, my observation of others,
and my years of exposure to the "mainline" view that a calorie is a calorie.

I did not lose my weight on low-carb, nor have I maintained it on low-carb eating.
However, although I am now in my 5th year of maintaining a very large weight loss,
it is still extremely difficult..
In fact, as time goes by, while my behavioral issues with eating have improved,
my physical issues with eating and weight have not.
It is harder for me now than it has ever been.

Therefore, I continue to seek for solutions, and I work to keep an open mind.
I am intrigued by Gary Taubes' Research.
I first read his book in 2007 when it came out,
since then I've read it thoroughly two more times, and found new information each time.
In fact, my book is so defaced by highlighters and notes from my prior readings,
that recently I bought another copy on my Kindle so I could read it again without distraction.
It was written for the medical community,
and it's contents aren't as easily digested by someone with a doctorate in law.

The concept of "disrespecting" the body is an interesting one.
It could be many different things to many different people.

Does "respect" the body mean "trust" the body?
Does it mean one can depend upon it to regulate itself and all body processes without assistance?

What about a type 1 diabetic -- surely injecting insulin and rigidly controlling
one's carbohydrate intake due to that condition would be "respecting" the body,
despite the fact that it has a physical condition
which makes it untrustworthy and in need of assistance to function normally?

The "traditional" concept is that obesity and eating disorders
are caused by a basic psychological problem, i.e. "gluttony and sloth".

However, WHAT IF, the Cause is a pysiological problem,
i.e. problem of insulin and fat regulation which varies in degree genetically,
and..excess eating and low energy are "side effects" of that physical condition?

WHAT IF, as the pre World War II german scientists believed,
the condition of obesity is similiar to the condition of type 1 Diabetes,
..in that a Diabetic body has a problem with too little Insulin, causing an energy intake problem,
an Obese body has a problem with too much Insulin, causing an
energy storage problem.

It is uncontroverted science that during the periods when Insulin is high,
fat cells cannot release stored energy.
So, IF there is a genetic disorder causing high insulin,
one would need a way of eating which lowers insulin.

It is undeniably true that Carbohydrates are what drive Insulin.
Certainly, Insulin is lowered during periods of fasting.. due to zero food.
Also and on a low-calorie balanced diet, one ordinarily lowers carb intake along with protein and fat intake.
Of course, this genetic condition (if there) is of varying degree,
and the more severe the insulin problem,
the more reduced the carb intake would need to be.

WHAT IF, all it took for me to easily maintain my weight would be to limit carbs,
Would I be willing to do so?
I don't know. I love carbs. I do not want to believe they are a problem.
I would have to be really CONVINCED they were really the CAUSE,
before I'd be willing to severely limit them.
And could I do it for life?

However, I must admit that at least the Low-Carb, Atkins type diet does appear to have some scientific basis,
While I see the Intuitive Eating concept as merely wishful thinking, an idea built on a defective foundation,
in that there is little basis to believe (through either Scientific Research or Antidotal Evidence)
that the body of an obese person can or will, automatically regulate itself to become normal weight.

Reinhard makes his position clear in his book, The No S Diet page 145, 146:

"For most of us, the word addiction is too simplistic."
,,be very careful when you use words like addiction and craving. By using terminology like this, you frame the problem in a way that suggests that is is hopeless, and that can be a self-fulling prophecy."

Reinhard appears to reject the position that there is a physiological ...i.e. genetic or chemical.. causation for obesity,
and holds to the "Mainline" position that obesity is
psychological ..i.e. behavioral..caused by 'gluttony and sloth'.
He states his personal philosophical and moral (good vs. evil) position on pages 231, 232:

It's certainly possible to be "genetically fat", but you probably arent.
If you're like most overweight people...you're fat because you eat too much."...
"So get this genes stuff out of your head; it's probably just an excuse,
and it certainly won't solve the problem."
"Immoderate eating, what used to be called gluttony,
is an evil even apart from its effects.
Sure it makes us fat, but it also puts us out of control.
It makes us slaves to our appetite.

Based on all the information I have at this moment, my own position is:
that the "mainline" concepts of NoS can be quite an effective weight-loss method for people who are "overweight",
but it generally proves to be a rather ineffective weight-loss tool for people who are "obese".
This difference tends to support the conclusions Gary Taubes reached after his lengthy research on obesity.
However, this does not prevent NoS from being a helpful tool even in Obesity.
One simply needs to follow Reinhard's suggestion on page 167
and combine NoS with another food plan. (i.e. diet).

[BrightAngel]

Below is a recent post I made within the general forum.

I think one of the biggest and most common mistakes people make
re: food plans, diets, weight-loss or weight-gain etc,
is our general tendency to think we are all the same...
i.e. if that specific behavior works for her/him, it should work for me.

All of the "scientific rules" written by Experts are merely Averages.
We are not only two different sexes, we are also different heights,
different weights, different ages, and different activity levels.

On top of that,
each of us has a different and unique Genetic imprint.
Strong Evidence exists indicating that some people "handle"
or "process" various foods differently than other people.

At times it seems like the body defies the "rules of science"
with regard to weight-loss.
However, there are still many unknowns and variations between individual bodies,
and many hormones and other inner workings of the body have still not yet been discovered.

Science can't prove what is True,
it can only prove that a specific isolated fact in a specific isolated situation is Untrue.

The current "rules" are based on conclusions from past Research studies,
and are not the "ULTIMATE TRUTH"
because:

"The purpose of Science is not to reveal the Truth
but to eliminate error.
We can only approximate truth
by getting rid of as many wrong conclusions as we can."

[BrightAngel]

Information for those who wish to know my weight-loss history,
without having to read through my Personal Thread:

My open RNY, which has no malabsorption issues, was over 18 years ago,
and resulted in a NET loss of 80 lbs (271 to 190).
Initially I lost 110 lbs, but during the 12 years after WLS, I regained 30 of those lbs

In 2004, 12 years after my WLS surgery, I began logging all my food while working to eat low-calorie,
and achieved a 75 lb weight-loss (190 to 115).
For the past 4 1/2 years I have been working very hard to maintain my current weight.

[BrightAngel]

Re: "S" day Bingeing:
On a General Discussion Thread Dave Mc gave this excellent response to one of my posts.
Thanks, Dave.

Bright Angel's point is well taken: the people for whom S days naturally become more moderate are probably not those for whom binge eating has been a life-long problem. Most of us probably go a bit crazy on S days, at the start, because we're not used to going without sweets and we feel deprived, so we feel like we need to go nuts while we're allowed -- at first, but then that passes as we get used to the new pattern. I've never been a binge eater (though I did have some ridiculous S days at the start), but I can imagine that the situation must be very different if your long-term pattern has been one of alternating deprivation and painful over-indulgence.

[BrightAngel]

I've placed a copy of this post here for easy future reference.

I think our bodies have a better idea of what ideal is for us than our brains do.
You can probably diet down to the weight you think is ideal,
but it will always be a struggle to maintain it.

wosnes,
That SOUNDS like wisdom, and
it may apply to "Normal" people who've just put on a bit of weight.
However, it does not apply to the body of a "Reduced Obese" person,
and there are quite a few Obese people here on this forum.

A "Reduced Obese" person's body will continue to want to be Obese.
Almost every "Reduced Obese" person will always have to struggle
to maintain even a 10% weight loss.
In my own case, both before, and after, my WLS 18 years ago,
it was a struggle for me to maintain my weight even in the 190 lb range.
In fact....although of course I eat less here at my goal weight, than I did at 190....,
the intensity of my struggle with my body to keep from gaining is about the same.

My own viewpoint about ideal goalweight is
that since I'm going to have to intensely struggle with my body to maintain my weight,
in order to weigh less than 200 lbs +,
I might as well be do it from inside the normal weight range for my 5'0" height.

[BrightAngel]

For those who might be interested in how I use my food journal to count calories,
here is a copy of a post about this.

BrightAngel, one thing I always wonder about calorie counting:
how do you account for cooked foods / whole meals?
For example, an apple is easy: it's so & so calories.
However if (like we did today for dinner) your meal consists of
a) potato salad b) cucumber salad and c) cheese pie
how would you go about counting all that?
Would you have to input all recipes & divide by helpings
to know what you've eaten?

Since you ask.....

The software food journal I use, has a simple function that allows me
to input label info from new foods into its food dictionary.
It also has a simple function that allows me to input new recipes,
using foods that are in its food dictionary.

I would use its search function in its food dictionary,
and find potato salad,
then input how much I ate (1/2 cup?)
Same thing with cucmber salad and cheese pie.
Each of the 3 specialized foods could be as easy for me to input as an apple.

During the past 6 years, the program has been extremely helpful to me.
After one has input a food or a recipe once,
it is part of the program and is forever in my software dictionary.

As part of the process of entering a recipe the first time,
I have to determine how many servings are in it.
The program then immediately responds with correct nutritional values, including calories.

When I first started using the program,
I'd put in one of my favorite recipes
and divide it so that one serving was the amount I usually ate.
SURPRISE... sometimes I found that serving was TWO or THREE times
more than the calories I thought I was eating....
so then (during the initial input process) I adjusted the recipe
to a more reasonable number of servings
such as 12 servings, not 6 servings.
This taught me how much I should be eating, and
served as a Forever reminder as to just what size
my serving of that particular food should be.

When I log my food for each day, I just use the program's search function
Up comes my food or recipe,
I put whether I had 1 serving, or 1/2 serving or whatever,
and instantly I have all the nutritional values of what I ate...
or what I PLAN to eat...
....sometimes when I see the total values, I alter my plan.

I've been using it a long time now so all my standard recipes are in the Dictionary.
When I cook a new recipe, I just add it in.
I also enter as a Recipe,
frequent combinations of foods I eat,
such as a particular Sandwich or even a complete standard meal.
That way I am able to log an entire meal as easily as an apple.

If I am going to eat in a restaurant,
I plan approximately what I will eat in advance.
Look online and find that item or a similiar item,
and input the restaurant nutritional info for that food item.
Then, after my meal, I make minor changes to reflect what I actually ate.

Anytime I eat something I haven't prepared, I can always find
something similiar in the food dictionary,
or find the nutritional values of a similiar food somewhere online.
Once I put that food into the dictionary, it is there for future use.

Most people eat about the same foods month after month,
so once the initial work is done, tracking food is very easy,
and takes only a few minutes each day.
I find doing this a very enjoyable and extremely valuable HABIT.

Any Skill or Habit takes work to estabish in the beginning,
but the payoff can be remarkable.

[BrightAngel]

Sugar has a pull that I am not sure how I will handle.

Personally, I handle it by using artificial sweetener, primarily Splenda.
Yes, it is probably not the best solution, but Splenda is altered sucrose,
while sugar is half sucrose and half fructose.
I have never been anything near a "Health Nut",
and calories has been the only reason I've avoided sugar,
however, after recently listening to what Dr. Robert Lustig says about fructose,
sugar doesn't seem as appealing to me.

If interested, Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
and listen to this podcast:
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/show ... g-episode/

[connorcream]

I do like Splenda and use it in my coffee & coke. I am sanguine about the health concerns. I have seem these videos and when I get back home in a couple of weeks I will rewatch them.

My unknown is if I can have a small taste rarely and not start to think about the next taste. I don't/haven't binged but that doesn't mean I don't think about it.

[connorcream]

I also wanted to say thank you for your posts. Communication/Internet is sporadic but while I had the chance, I wanted to reitterate the pleasure you helped bring to my life resulting from a trim weight. Food journaling is incredibly powerful and quite easy.

[BrightAngel]

Recently I began experimenting with
a high-fat, adequate protein, low-carb plan that I've tweaked for myself,
and found a lot of my own food cravings growing fainter.

I've really hesitated about making a public post about this, because I don't know exactly how I feel about it or how long I'll do it. I've always been ANTI-low-carb, and this is a drastic change for me. If you are interested in my current motivation, go to the You-Tube sites that I list in my personal Threads, and watch the lectures that motivated me to give this a try. If you want to make a comment that I might perceive as Negative, please PM it to me, instead of posting it here on my Thread.

It's really too early in my Experiment to reach any conclusions, but here is what's going on with me right now.
Recently I re-read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes, and watched his You-Tube lectures, along with Dr. Chris Gardener's Stanford University lecture, and Dr. Robert Lustig's University Lecture. That intrigued me, and so I read 10 or so low-carb diet books, looking for the different ways people lived while eating low-carb and reading their reports of the benefits to them.

I have never been a "low-carb" person, as I love my dense complex carbs, along with a few refined ones. I've always been a big bread and cookie person. And my weight-loss and maintenance way of eating has always been low-fat, not high-fat. However, here in this 5th year of maintaining my large weight-loss, my maintenance calorie burn keeps decreasing, and eating only that amount keeps me hungry most of the time. Plus, I find that eating a small amount of certain foods frequently just "primes the pump" and causes massive cravings for more. So, I've reached a point where I am willing to try eating low-carb to see how it works for me.

Since I log all my food in my DietPower computer food journal every day, tracking the carbs in my food is easy. All I do is put my food in, and DietPower gives me all the nutritional values, including calories, carbs, and fiber etc. I generally always plan ahead, and log in my food before eating. Then look at the nutritional values for calorie counts. When I see the number, sometimes I change my mind about what I'm going to eat. I'm just doing the same thing, only now I'm looking at the carb number too.

Right now, my experiment is to eat primarily animal products, meat, poultry, fish, eggs, with my only milk products butter, cheese, cream, and greek yogurt. Other acceptable fats are olive oil, virgin coconut oil, All these foods have only a very small amount of carbs. I include various low-carb salad dressings. Then I add some of the standard low-carb veggies that almost all diets l approve of, like raw leafy green veggies, cucumber, mushrooms, jicama, (plus avacado) and some cooked veggies like green beans, cauliflower, etc. Next, if I have enough calories and carbs left, I might have up to a small handful of nuts or seeds. After that, I might occasionally include one or two other low-carb items during that entire day, for example: one small La Tortilla Factory low-carb tortilla or 1 slice of Ezekial sprouted wheat bread.

My purpose is to see if eating these particular foods, within my maintenance calorie budget, will satisfy my physical hunger, and reduce my cravings, while being delicious enough for me to continue doing it.

Of course, the first week wasn't easy, because there are physical side effects to changing over from a normal or low-fat way of eating to low-carb. However, so far, I am very surprised by my body's reaction to eating this way, in that I feel physically much more satisfied while eating within my calorie budget, AND so far... I'm finding that I'm not craving sweets or bread products. It helps that there are many interesting and delicious low-carb recipes on-line and elsewhere, that work for me as great substitutes for sweets and bread, and I continue to use Splenda, and other artificial sweeteners whenever I wish to.

I've been tracking food with Dietpower every day for the past 6 years. To answer those who've asked, it costs $35 plus a $10 disk. If you buy it, be certain to buy the disk too. Although a download is cheaper, having the disk will save future hassles and make sure you own a copy no matter what. There is a 2 week free trial. I ran across it on the internet, and downloaded the free trial, two days later I ordered the program, including the disk, and I've been extremely happy I did it. I know I wouldn't have lost down to my goal weight, AND kept it off for the past 4+ years without using it every day.

I have lots of personal data because of my computer software.
For example I know that I've maintained the same weight for the past 1 year while eating an average of 1050 calories.
I'm female, 5'0", 65 years old, and sedentary with 30 min to 1 hr daily low-impact exercise, and a small bit of strength training. I've experimented with months when I increased my exercise, (all low-impact) sometimes up to 4 hours a day, and it did nothing to change my weight or give me additional calories. The charts say my burn should be higher, but it isn't. This holds true when I raise my calories as well, since there have been times when I ran experiments of eating a 1200 calorie average. Unfortunately, this just caused a weight gain. My goal is to maintain my weight inside my goal range, and I am committed to do whatever it takes to accomplish that. It doesn't really matter what the charts say your calorie burn is Supposed to be, what matters is what your own body does.

Right now, in my low-carb experiment, I'm working to eat a daily average of 1000 calories, or less, and keep my net carbs 30, or less. So I'm actually keeping my food intake calories about the same, but seeing what happens when I eat the same number of calories, but make them low-carb. If the low-carb theories prove true, this should cause a small weight-loss, while satisfying hunger and reducing cravings. I would have to continue the experiment all summer in order to get any useful results, and it is my intention to do this, as long as my weight doesn't start climbing. If I start gaining weight...not bounces of a few lbs, up and down... but actual steady weight increase, then I will change my food plan.

I frequently have 1/2 an avacado, or 1/2 a tomato, which are actually fruits. In my experiment, I could eat fruit whenever I wanted, as long as the fruit I chose had the right number of carbs, and I wanted to trade all the other day's carbs for them. For example:

1/2 Apple: 50 calories 10.5 carbs, 1.5 fiber, net carbs 9
1 small Calif Orange: 68 calories, 17.5 carbs, 3 fiber, net carbs 14.5
1/2 banana: 50 calories, 13 carbs, 1 fiber, net carbs 12.
1/2 c. strawberries: 23 calories, 5.5 carbs, 1 fiber, net carbs 4
1/2 canteloupe: 27 calories, 6.5 carbs 0.75 fiber, net carbs 5.25
1/2 c watermelon: 22 calories, 5.7 carbs, 0.35 fiber, net carbs 5.35
1/2 c grapes: 52 calories, 13.4 carbs .07 fiber, net carbs 12.7
1/2 c. raw cherries: 45 calories, 11.6 carbs, 1.5 fiber, net carbs 10.

It is the grains that are my challenge to limit or avoid:

1/4 c dry rolled oats: 75 calories, 13.5 carbs, 2 fiber, net carbs 11.5
1 slice whole grain bread: 100 calories, 22 carbs, 3 fiber, net carbs 19
1 small, fajita size flour tortilla: 110 calories, 19 carbs, 0.7 fiber, net carbs 18.3
1 plain normal/medium (4") size bagel, 245 calories, 48 carbs, 2 fiber, net carbs 46.

All this info, I just looked up in my DietPower. Just by putting that food into the search function, and stating the amount, I accessed the food to my day's menu, and then checked the nutritional values in the window that came up. After learning the details, I deleted those foods from my menu as I don't intend to eat them today. Easy to learn how to do, and after doing it for awhile, it can be done without much thought.
Using it has now become a rather enjoyable daily Habit of mine.

Certainly NoS can be modified to fit any kind of food plan, and I think that a great many people, especially shorter, older, very heavy females, need substantial modifications (additional structure and helpful behaviors) to become successful at weight-loss and maintenance.

[ShannahR]

Hi BrightAngel,
I just wanted to drop in and say I thought your post was very interesting. I think that you should absolutely experiment with your eating patterns and shouldn't feel awkward about trying something new. I don't feel like just because you've been anti-low carb in the past you have to support that point of view forever. I think part of life is trying and experimenting. I really hope this new way of eating works for you, or if not, I'm sure you'll learn something from it.

I hope you interpret this post as supportive, I am very interested to see how low-carb works for you and I hope you'll post on your experiences. I'll definately stop back to see how it's going.

Shannah

[connorcream]

I am doing the same thing as you based on the same sources. I have read 2 low carb books, Taubes book, PDF summary, countless interviews, Lustig lecture, etc.

It is too early for me to have substantial data but somethings I can already enjoy- decreased appetite and more energy. Hiking is a joy with the family while on vacation.

Thank you for your post.

[dmarie710]

Well, this has been very interesting to me also. As a petite woman I find that I also gain weight eating 1200 calories a day and find I have to eat very low cal to lose. So, Bright Angel I myself have experimented with low carb many times and found what you are finding. I don't know if I've stuck it out long enough with 30 grams or less, cause as you stated it is a bit uncomfortable. This experiment of yours I think is going to be a learning experience for sure. I haven't taken Taube's books too seriously, not sure why, but did watch those lectures and found them interesting. Thank You for posting this. This may be helpful to many of us gals that seem to be stuck.
Denise

[BrightAngel]

This is a copy of my post on the General Thread which I think helps explain my dieting point of view.

RE: Geneen Roth's new book, Women, Food, and God
Some of you know that part of my maintenance is to make dieting into a pleasurable hobby.
That is a book I bought and read, as I do with almost all new best-selling diet books.
The information inside is identical to her lectures in her week long workshops,
one of which I paid for and attended in 2009.

Essentially, since I was present at her workshops,
I gained even more evidence about intuitive eating
and how it affects people,
my own, (rather harsh) opinion is that 'it is a load of crap'.

I spent many years in Trial Practice while Specializing as a Family Law Attorney,
and I believe I've developed quite a useful inner Truth rader
while observing people's speech and behavior.
After meeting Geenen, watching her and listening to her lectures etc.
I believe that many of her personal statements
about her own experiences and the experiences of others, "bend the truth",
which she mentally justifies by thinking it will help others
while helping her futher her personal goals of fame and financial success.

I saw quite a lot of fat people there who've come to her (quite expensive) workshops year after year.
and many, many more fat people who've just grown fatter doing intuitive eating.
Out of about 100 people there, I saw zero formerly obese people
who had lost much weight or maintained weight-loss by intuitive eating.

The only people I saw who appeared to benefit from that type of eating,
were relatively normal people, who merely went into the overweight,
or borderline obese category for awhile,
and probably would have returned to normal weight
by consistently doing anything to downsize their overeating.

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,
My thought on intuitive eating is that it can work for some people but not for people suffering from a type of (this is tongue in cheek) post traumatic stress syndrome from years of self-imposed starvation. I think I'm so far gone that I can't even manage portion control, so that's why I like the approach of eating only at meals. Personally, I would have loved for intuitive eating to have worked. It would have been great!
Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

This is a copy of a post I made on another Thread that has relevance here.

One great thing about using a computer software food journal similiar to DietPower,
is that even though you currently don't want to count calories or control portions,
Someday in the future, you would be able to look back at your personal data,
and learn the accurate amounts, nutritional values and/or your eating patterns.

I have been making daily food entries into my DietPower journal for the past 6 years,
and I can access any day's food information from the past 6 years.
For Example, suppose I wanted to know exactly what and how much I ate
every Christmas Day or every Birthday or every Vacation for the past 6 years,
I can pull that data up and compare it.
I find this ability to access personal information to be very compelling.

[BrightAngel]

Something I want to share here:

The No S Diet is about building habits.
Reinhard offers the habits that worked for him.
They don't work for me,
but I can use the same philosophy to figure out the habits that will work for me.

Kathleen,
I think that this is an important Truth to keep in mind.

BrightAngel,
I finally realized you were right.
The basic idea is to develop habits that are sustainable that lead to a lower weight.
There is no one list of habits.
It may be that there needs to be a combination of diet and exercise,
but there is no magic bullet.
We all have to find our own way.
We have to find what works for us.

This is a good summary of one of my core beliefs.

[connorcream]

This is a concise and accurate summary of my approach as well.

[BrightAngel]

This Post is in response to a quote on another Forum member's Thread.

Portion control means not eating to satisfaction.
It means denying the body the food it desires.
Constant portion control means a constant state of self-denial and misery,
a constant state of self-imposed starvation. That's a bad means.

Or, maybe, my perspective is the reason why I'm obese.

A portion control approach to weight management is evil and subversive.
Such harsh words. Is there truth in it? It's my perspective only...
I think the obesity epidemic was caused by portion control.

Good or Bad, in such a case, is simply a Value Judgment.
I like something...It's Good.
I hate something...It's Bad.
And, we can always find reasons to justify all of our Value Judgments.
Many Facts of Life are not Good or Bad. They Just Are. They Exist.

By definition, an Obese person takes in More food intake
than that person's body requires to maintain a Normal weight.
The Reason this happens is really still unknown.

Some people say the Cause is physiological.. that Obesity is due to a Genetic disfunction,
or a "raised set point", or some other unknown physical factor,
an obese person's appetite control system doesn't operate properly.
Specifically, that person has a body with a defective fat regulation system,
and one symptom of this condition is physical hunger for more food than the body requires.

Some people say the Cause is psychological...that Obesity is due to Gluttony and Sloth..
and that this behavior can come from ignorance, or from Cultural influence,
or from some unknown deeply emotional Disfunction.

Whether Obesity has a physiological or psychological cause.....
the only way a person who is Obese can become normal weight is to.....
..Eat Less.....
The term "Portion Control" is simply a shortcut way to define the process
of "consciously and actively monitering the Amount of one's Food Intake"
The Obese person's Body does not want to eat less.
...(Usually, the Obese person's Mind doesn't want to do it either.)....
Eating whatever food substance one wishes to eat....in an amount that will satisfy
an Obese person's physical and emotional appetites....
will never result in that Obese person becoming, or maintaining, a normal weight.
It's just a Fact.

Call it Good. Call it Bad. It is just a Truth of Life.

I find that in order to find satisfaction and peace in Life,
I must reach the point of Acceptance of these, sometimes unpleasant, Truths.
Once I Accept a Truth, I can choose how I'm going to deal with it.
But Denial of Life's Truth...and rationalizing it away from my consciousness...
takes away my Freedom to control and change my behaviors in response to that Truth.

To reach peace of mind while refusing to Accept Life's Truth requires me
to mentally Distort that Truth via rationalization.
Holding on to a Distorted belief, or perspective, about the way an Obese body functions,
can certainly keep an Obese person fat.

Portion Control...which is defined above...involves self-denial.
It requires one to deny one's Obese, or Reduced Obese, Body
the Amount of food it requires for complete satisfaction.
It takes much Effort. It is work.

If I'm blind because I've lost my eyes,
but choose to believe they'll regrow themselves soon,
I probably won't do the work it takes to learn Braille.

If I believe that somehow, through some magical process,
I can give my Obese or Reduced obese Body all types of food,
in the amounts that it takes for that Body to always register Satisfaction,
I'm not going to do the work it takes to control the amount of food I eat
in order to reduce my Obese body, or keep my Reduced Obese body a normal weight.

I'm going to be working, though.
It is going to take a great deal of Mental Work to find some way to sustain my irrational belief system
which every day must face the Reality of Life's Truth.

[Kathleen]

Hi BrigthAngel,

I went into this diet having already decided I'd rather weight 500 pounds rather than go back to a "portion control" approach. I've worked hard and not gotten very far. It's true that I thought just following No S for two Ss (no snacks or sweets on N Days) would do the trick, and I proved to myself beyond the shadow of a doubt that continuing with that approach would not result in weight loss, as you told me way back in November. It can do no harm for me to add exercise. Will it result in weight loss? I will put an optimistic spin on this and, instead of saying "Doubtful" will say "Time will tell."

I appreciate your thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.

Kathleen

[connorcream]

I weigh in the upper 130's which is so much easier than being fat. Fat is hard. DH gets salt for water softener, 40# bags at a time. I have lost almost 60# with portion control. My poor body, the damage I did to it. Joints, heart, breathing, rosacea, fatigue, poor sleeping, self esteem at times. I am over 4 months on maintanence and will never, ever go back to ignorance.

Nothing in my life that is important to me I wing it. I am methodical and planning with my family(education/schools,neighborhoods, doctors, activities, friends, meals, vacations, etc...), my money (balance checkbook, no debt, use cash, budget expenses, insurance, estate planning, investing, constantly reading to improve my knowledge base), or my faith walk (I don't randomly go into any Church hoping to find something suitable).

My health is my tiptop priority and it deserves the same level of intelligent, thooughtful, planning and study. In fact the time it takes to record my eating is less than the above mentioned interests. Food has to not only taste good but be good for me long after I have finished eating. And how will I know what that might mean for me without monitoring my intake both in quantity (calories-portion control) and type (carbs, fiber, protien, fat). I have found many intersting things about my body and what would be considered healthy for one (grains in particular) must be severely limted for me and I have no allergies to gluten. How much I must curtail don't know yet but oatmeal is off the table except in BA's pancakes once per week on Sunday when the family has their pancakes or waffles. Gratis for the recipe.

Sorry for the highjack of your thread but it struck a chord in me. I will copy this to my checkin.

[BrightAngel]

Being fat is hard,
Losing weight is hard,
Maintaining weight loss is hard.
Choose your hard.

Here are some links to personal Graphs and Charts
relevant to me and my Weight-loss and Maintenance Efforts and Results.

Weight Loss:

Graph of Weight during Weight Loss Phase
http://pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/1-weightGraph-1.gif

Graph of Calorie Intake during Weight Loss Phase
http://pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/1-calorieGraph-1.gif

Maintenance:

Graph of Weight during 1st year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... intain.gif

Graph of Calorie Intake during 1st year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... intain.gif

Graph of Weight during 2nd year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... ain-Lg.gif

Graph of Calorie Intake during 2nd year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... in-Lrg.gif

Graph of Weight during 3rd year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... ain-Lg.gif

Graph of Calorie Intake during 3rd year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... ain-Lg.gif

Graph of Weight during 4th year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/4yrWeight.gif

Graph of Calorie Intake during 4th year of Maintenance
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/4yrCalories.gif

Detailed Monthly Averages of Weight and Calories during Maintenance

To see my numbers in Maintenance during 2006, Click here:
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... erages.gif

To see my numbers in Maintenance during 2007, Click here:
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... erages.gif

To see my numbers in Maintenance during 2008, Click here:
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/ ... erages.gif

To see my numbers in Maintenance during 2009, Click here:
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal2/2009-12mo.gif

To see my numbers in Maintenance during 2010, Click here:
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal2/2010-7-mo.gif

[BrightAngel]

Here are some links to pictures
relevant to me and my Weight-loss and Maintenance Efforts and Results.

After Pictures of me inside my Goal Range of 115-105 lbs

Jeans-115 lbs
http://pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/DP-Jeans.gif

Gauchos-115 lbs
http://pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal/DP-Gaucho.gif

Pants-105 lbs
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal2 ... 7-3-07.gif

Dress-105 lbs
http://www.pcollins.com/upload/DP-Goal2/DP-Goal2/pc.gif

[Kathleen]

Wow, BrightAngel. Looking at your pictures, I appreciate the limitations in me physically because of the excess weight. I've been over 200 pounds for most of the last 6 years, so I think of myself as overweight. It's something to consider --how would my life be different if I was thin?
Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

Many times I have been asked if I have "BEFORE" pictures of myself.

Of course I do, but I'm not going to share them.
If I wanted people to see me fat, I would have stayed fat.

If you are Overweight or Obese, and think a "Before" image would inspire you....

Take off your clothes and look into a full length mirror.
At some point in my life, I was as fat or fatter than that.
Therefore, YOU are the same or thinner than my BEFORE.

[BrightAngel]

Wow, BrightAngel. Looking at your pictures,
I appreciate the limitations in me physically because of the excess weight.

I've been over 200 pounds for most of the last 6 years,
so I think of myself as overweight.

It's something to consider --
how would my life be different if I was thin?

Remember, Kathleen, my Height is 5' 0", and my highest weight was 271 lbs.

I don't know how tall you are,
but for me, OBESITY STARTS at 154 lbs, and OVERWEIGHT STARTS at 129 lbs.

To only be OVERWEIGHT at 200 lbs, you'd have to be 5' 11" tall.
For a 5' 11" female, 200 lbs is just inside the OVERWEIGHT category,
and only 1 lb below the Low Border of OBESITY.

Here is a Chart I made showing the High Borders of Normal weight,
and the Low Borders of Overweight, and Obesity.

[Kathleen]

I'm 5'6 1/2" tall, so I think that I am overweight at 160 or so and obese at 185 or so. It is inspirational that you have made such a change.
Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

I'm 5'6 1/2" tall, so I think that I am overweight at 160 or so and obese at 185 or so.
It is inspirational that you have made such a change.

Thanks, Kathleen.
It was very hard to do,
and it is STILL very hard to keep doing.
BUT BEING FAT was also VERY HARD.

According to the chart above,
At 5'6", the bottom border of your Overweight range would be 156.5 lbs
and the bottom border of your Obesity range would be 181.5 lbs.
So, when you drop below 181.5,
you would move from your Obese range into your Overweight range,
and when you drop below 156.5,
you would move from your Overweight range into your Normal range.

[Aleria]

Bright Angel, I'd like to point out that the chart is a bit of a generalization.
I'm 5'2" and usually somewhere between 150-160 (I don't weigh often), but I am certainly not borderline obese... why? Because I am heavily muscled. I have some fat in the usual areas - breasts, butt, a bit in thighs and stomach, but that does not put me in the obese category. I can still feel my ribs quite clearly, and if I poke my stomach there is a layer of fat there, but it's small and underneath is hard muscle.
So I think it's important to keep body type as well as size in mind. This is why I don't weigh a lot, and am mostly judging my success on No-S through fit and waist measurement.
PS: Not trying to be rude! It's hard to measure tones over the internet. Just wanted to give input as seeing that according to your chart I'm nearly obese was a bit offensive.

[BrightAngel]

The chart is a bit of a generalization.
I'm 5'2" and usually somewhere between 150-160
but I am certainly not borderline obese...
why? Because I am heavily muscled.
I have some fat in the usual areas - breasts, butt, a bit in thighs and stomach,
but that does not put me in the obese category.
I can still feel my ribs quite clearly, and if I poke my stomach
there is a layer of fat there, but it's small and underneath is hard muscle.
Being told that according to your chart I'm nearly obese was a bit offensive.

At 5'2" and 150-160 lbs, you would be in the mid-to-top half of the "Overweight" category.
No one wants to be in the "Obese" category,
because that label goes past a little bit "Overweight", and defines one as actually too "Fat".

The numbers I posted above are standard BMI (Body Mass Index) numbers.
BMI categories are:
• Underweight = <18.5
• Normal weight = 18.5–24.9
• Overweight = 25–29.9
• Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

Many athletic people who are carrying a lot of muscle under their fat strongly
protest that their muscles make them an exception,
and therefore they don't fall into the standard BMI categories.

The following quote from a Bodybuilding expert is very on Point about this issue.

BMI chart – What is all the Fuss About.

I was reading a blog about the BMI (Body Mass Index) chart the other day and noticed that many people were saying that it’s not accurate and is an outdated measurement and needs to be replaced/revised.

So I started to think about why anyone would say this. The BMI chart was created over 100 years ago as a way of charting body ‘fatness’ or ‘thinness’. With the influence of Ancel Keys (visionary scientist way ahead of his time) BMI became a prominent tool in the 1970′s for assessing population health risks.

There is a criticism that the BMI doesn’t account for different ‘frame’ sizes of people (endomorphs and ectomorphs) or athletes who have built up their muscles to a much larger degree than the regular population. Both of these criticism’s seem to be weak as true ecotmorphic or endomorphic people are very rare…in other words, for MOST of the population the BMI works just fine, and that was the point in the first place.

The athlete argument doesn’t hold much water either, as they represent a very small percentage of the population and many of them at all levels use steroids and other drugs that artificially elevate their lean body mass. In other words, the BMI was never meant to be applied to people taking steroids and GH.

So what about ‘natural’ athletes and bodybuilders who don’t use drugs but just build lots of muscles? Surely they wouldn’t be in the ‘normal’ BMI range…right? Wrong!

A few days ago I posted pictures of myself after a 5 day fast (I weighed 176lbs in those pics…granted this was mostly a water reduction)…as of the moment I am writing this my bodyweight fluctuates between 180-183lbs. In both cases I am still within the normal BMI range. And this is where the argument about athletes being in the ‘overweight’ BMI range because of increased muscle mass falls apart for me.

In these pictures -> DO I LOOK SKINNY? I’m well within the normal BMI range…and I don’t think I look too small or lacking in muscle development. In fact I’ve spent the past 15 years trying to build as much muscle as I can…and I STILL fall within the ‘normal’ BMI range. If anyone was a candidate for being ‘overweight’ due to muscle mass I thought surely I would be it…but nope I’m still ‘normal’.

So the argument that athletes can build enough muscle to somehow push them out of the normal BMI range seems a bit wonky to me (unless of course they are using steroids or were true endormorphs to begin with…which is an exceedingly small portion of the population). Look at those pictures of me again, do I really look like I could possibly get bigger? Do I look like I NEED to be bigger? AND do I look unhealthy at the size I am?

The problem people have with the BMI is not the chart itself, but what the chart MEANS to them. The chart is meant to show ‘fatness’ and categorize it as normal or abnormal on both the high and low end. The key word here is ‘normal’.

What SHOULD be normal for a human body and what has BECOME normal in modern western societies are two different things.

The BMI chart shows what SHOULD be normal, not what is currently considered normal.

If most of the population is overweight (according to the BMI chart) the error in logic could be that the population is right and the BMI chart is wrong.

I think many people have a sharp emotional reaction to things like the BMI chart because it categorizes you in a way that feels discriminatory and prejudicial. Of course there is no emotion behind the BMI chart, it’s just a mathematical equation…but there is some thought and research into it, it’s not just a random idea, so you know there is some validity to the category you’ve been placed in according to the chart. And this is why it bothers people. If there is some good reason why you are categorized as ‘overweight’ then you’re faced with the following dilemma about your belief in the normalcy of your current body size:

Either the chart is wrong, or YOU are wrong.
It’s much easier to dismiss the chart as being inaccurate and not useful for your specific body shape and size or whatever excuse you like, than it is to accept the fact that perhaps you’re in fact simply overweight.
The final point on this topic is the view from being in the normal category vs the overweight or obese categories.

I used to be much heavier than I am now and I used all the same excuses explaining away the BMI as antiquated and outdated and didn’t account for the mountains of muscle I had built over the years. In reality, I was just fat.

Once I went through my cut down and got rid of all the excess weight I ended up right where the BMI chart predicted me to be at the high end of the normal range…which makes perfect sense as I’ve built as much muscle as I can without drugs.

If I’m currently in the normal category, and I’ve spent my whole life trying to build muscle, and all of my measurable health markers are in very good shape, and I’m happy with the look and shape of my body, and I have a golden Adonis Index ratio…then how is it possible for me or anyone with roughly my frame (which is average) to actually be in the overweight category without simply having more fat mass on their body and subsequently looking worse than I do right now?

In other words, if some people suggest the BMI cutoff for ‘overweight’ is too low, then what does that make me in these pictures? Underweight?

Or is it that people who don’t like the category the chart puts them in immediately react by dismissing the chart as being wrong instead of heeding the guidance it provides to lose some weight. This of course is cognitive dissonance at its finest.

For anyone who is in the ‘normal’ range the BMI chart seems to make perfect sense, or at least it does to me.

.......by John Barban, Bodybuilder, creator of the Adonis and Venus Index and business partner of Brad Pilon, who authored Eat Stop Eat.

Here are the pictures which are referenced in the quote above.

[clarinetgal]

That's an interesting article! There was a point in my life where I was working out pretty intensely (high impact cardio and lifting heavier weights), but I was eating too much (due to stress from it being my first year of teaching), and I was overweight. My top weight at that point was about 150 pounds, and I'm 5'1. I dismissed the BMI chart at that time for that very reason, I felt like I had a lot of muscle, so the BMI chart was just wrong. Through cutting back on my food intake (I didn't count calories strictly), I was able to get down to the mid 120s, which was a much better weight for me. I'm slightly higher than that now (currently in the upper 120s), but the BMI chart is one of the things that strongly motivates me to keep my eating in check, because I don't want to get over 130. I also find it sort of empowering, because I can choose to be at the higher end of the normal range for BMI, or I can be at the lower end of normal, it's totally up to me -- as long as I stay at a healthy weight. At this point, I'm choosing to be at the higher end of normal, because I want to be able to be a little bit more relaxed about my eating, but I'm glad I have the knowledge to make that choice.

[Aleria]

Good to know I'll probably never be "normal" weight then. Since I don't exercise consciously, I have just gained muscle by being generally active. I like having the strength to move my living room furniture around by myself (including an antique wood dresser), and I like having curves to my figure. I don't care what my weight is, honestly, as long as I feel good, and if that means I'll never hit the accepted norm of "skinny", then that's fine with me. I'm not interested in obsessing over a generalized number.

[BrightAngel]

Good to know I'll probably never be "normal" weight then.
I'm not interested in obsessing over a generalized number.

I think it's a really Great thing to KNOW general definitions in the weight-loss area;
to make an informed personal choice about one's present food and exercise Behavior
along with the potential future weight Results;
and to be at Peace with one's own decision.

[BrightAngel]

I'm really hoping after I hit a year of maintenance, this will get a little easier.

It's true what they say, maintenance is just as challenging as dieting.
Most importantly, you need to be ready to make permanent changes
so you can get to where you want to go and stay there.
Unfortunately, I still battle desires with food. I still crave things.

I'm just wondering if others feel this way.

In January, I'll have 5 years of maintenance,
and I Still Hope it will get easier after that.

I've learned that:
Things don't happen the same way twice.
The way I lose weight or maintain weight now is not the same way
that I lost weight or maintained weight five years ago.
I can't EXACTLY repeat the things I did before,
because I'm a different person now.

I'm 5 years older.
Although I am in very good health,
the human body is DESIGNED to wear out with age.
No matter how hard I work at staying fit,
now that I'm in my mid-60s, I am ageing more rapidly,
and I can see and feel that Process happening.
Some activites and exercises that I could do 5 years ago,
my present body will no longer tolerate.

My body has also now spent years adjusting and adapting to burn less energy.
Retirement from my profession changed my lifestyle.
I am active, but in a different way.

This is the Challenge.
What works now won't work forever.
You have to keep changing and adapting,
because life keeps changing whether you like it or not.

[BrightAngel]

This recent article contains so much truth,
that I quote here.
I find it interesting that so many people are in Denial
about the fact that they need to EAT LESS FOOD...
including those who think they just need to eat less of a TYPE of food.

Blind to Obesity
Harris Interactive/HealthDay poll finds 30 percent of those who are
overweight think they're normal size

Many Americans have skewed perceptions when it comes to their weight, often believing they are lighter than they actually are, even when the scales are shouting otherwise, a new poll finds.

As part of the Harris Interactive/HealthDay survey, respondents were asked to provide their height and weight, from which pollsters calculated their body-mass index (BMI), a ratio of weight to height. Respondents were then asked which category of weight they thought they fell into.

Thirty percent of those in the "overweight" class believed they were actually normal size, while 70 percent of those classified as obese felt they were simply overweight. Among the heaviest group, the morbidly obese, almost 60 percent pegged themselves as obese, while another 39 percent considered themselves merely overweight.

These findings may help to explain why overweight and obesity rates in the United States continue to go up, experts say.

"While there are some people who have body images in line with their actual BMI, for many people they are not, and this may be where part of the problem lies," said Regina Corso, vice president of Harris Poll Solutions. "If they do not recognize the problem or don't recognize the severity of the problem, they are less likely to do something about it."

And that means that obesity may be becoming the new norm, raising the specter of increasing rates of health threats such as diabetes, heart disease and certain cancers.

"I think too many people are unsure of what they should actually weigh," said Keri Gans, a registered dietician and spokeswoman for the American Dietetic Association. "For many, they have grown up in a culture were most people are overweight and that is the norm, or they have been surrounded by too many celebrities and fashion in the media and think very thin is the norm."

According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 34 percent of adults aged 20 and older are obese, and 34 percent are overweight. Among children, 18 percent of teens aged 12 to 19 are obese, 20 percent of children aged 6 to 11 are obese, as are 10 percent of kids aged 2 to 5.

Most respondents to the poll who felt they were heavier than they should be blamed sloth, rather than poor eating habits, for their predicament.
"In the mindset of most Americans, they're not looking at this as a food problem as much as an exercise problem," Corso said.

According to the poll, 52 percent of overweight people and 75 percent of both the obese and morbidly obese felt they didn't exercise enough.

"We're seeing the couch potato stigma [syndrome]," Corso said. "Three out of five Americans overall are saying they don't exercise as much as they should."

Added Gans: "It is sad that 59 percent of people who responded know they should be getting more exercise but yet aren't. Maybe they set the bar too high and forget that simply walking counts as exercise."

Food appeared to be a lesser culprit than lack of exercise in people's minds, with 36 percent of overweight respondents, 48 percent of obese respondents and 27 percent of those morbidly obese feeling they ate more than they "should in general."

A third of overweight people, 55 percent of obese people and 59 percent of morbidly obese people felt they ate too much of the wrong types of food.

As for weight-loss interventions, the respondents deemed surgery the most effective method, followed by prescription drugs, then drugs and diet-food supplements obtained over-the-counter.

About half felt that procedures such as gastric bypass and stomach stapling were either very or fairly effective in helping people shrink their girth. Faith in these remedies seemed similar, regardless of the respondents' weight.

"Americans like the quick fix and that's what they think the surgery is even though there are so many other things" that work, Corso said. "And so many people reverse their own surgery. These numbers are staggering."

Dr. Mitchell Roslin, chief of obesity surgery at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City, noted that "when [Dr. Everett Coop, surgeon general in the 1980s] wrote 'Shape Up America,' he said the biggest health problem facing America was not AIDS, not cancer, it's obesity and a sedentary lifestyle. Since then ... we've seen nothing but a rise in obesity despite all of these efforts that have gone on now since the 1980s."

"The American public knows this but it's hard and it's something that they're not quite ready to do," Corso added. "This wake-up call still isn't ringing as loudly as it could."

The poll included 2,418 adults (aged 18 and over) who were surveyed online between Aug. 17 and 19.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .THURSDAY, Sept. 2, 2010(HealthDay News)

[connorcream]

Excellent article. I will copy and paste into my files of worthy reads.

Eating less is very hard for people to judge. I can speak from sad experience. I thought 1 plate of healthy foods, no snacks, no sweets would be sufficient with moderate exercise would help me lose weight. But no. I did not know what would be a healthy portion for me, I did not know how different foods would affect me. I too thought exercise was the key in some vague way. But how much and what type for my lifestyle.

I am so very grateful to have found what works for me. My life is so much easier and enjoyable. I find it very sad that it took me so long to discover my path and I find it equally sad to see others still struggle with their obesity/heavy weights. Struggling in maintanence is better than to struggle while losing weight, IMHO.

As always, so delighted to read your thoughts.

[BrightAngel]

As I have shared previously, I think that the “Vanilla†No S Diet
can be extremely effective for people who have merely become “overweightâ€,
but is much less effective for people who deal with long-term "obesity".

I think the primary reason for this is that these two categories
—in general--
tend to have two different mind-sets involving excessive food.

This is a problem during N days,
but is a far greater problem during S days.

Removal of restrictions on No S days
is not actually intended to be UNCONDITIONAL permission to eat.
To be successul, one needs to think of permission to eat as one chooses on S days,
as slightly turning a release valve, not opening the floodgates.

In General....
Most Overweight people tend to view S days as
“slightly loosening a release valve†in order to avoid an explosion.
while
Most Obese people tend to view S days as
“opening the floodgatesâ€â€”giving the same the result as an explosion.

No matter which way you cut it, eating MORE is what causes fat-weight gain.
Thus, the cure is always going to be eating LESS.
The trick is to find a way that you can eat LESS long term.
A way that is enjoyable

[Happyhomemama]

This recent article contains so much truth,
that I quote here.
I find it interesting that so many people are in Denial
about the fact that they need to EAT LESS FOOD...
including those who think they just need to eat less of a TYPE of food.

I couldn't agree more. As far as eating less of a type of food I have felt that people want to fix the food not themselves because it's the foods fault, right? I wouldn't be surprised if you have also noticed how people react when you suggest eating less whether it be no snacking or waiting for hunger, I have often heard how bad it is for you, you need to eat X times a day, bodies going to go into starvation mode, your not eating enough to lose weight, etc., etc. People are so wrapped up in eating *right* and not realizing that a lot of is not what it is *right* and *wrong* to eat but *how much* and I think they would be shocked at how little food they actually need. It is my personal belief that food and just food (calories) has more to do with weight loss than exercise. No one can exercise enough to burn off a pizza.(OK I just have to interject that of course some foods are healthier than others and carrot is probably better for you than a marshmallow so no argument there) Exercise is great to keep in shape, good for your heart, and I do think it can help a metabolism but if you eat to much you will remain overweight. That's what I think anyway. Then I find it humorous when someone will say, "Oh yeah she's thin but she eats like a bird." I just want to ask if they ever thought there might be a correlation between eating like a bird and thinness because I don't think it ever occurred to them. I think I should say something about that being a habit I'd love to have and am trying to learn, eating like a bird would be a good thing.