The Blessings of Simplicity

Counting carbs/calories is a drag. Obsessive scale stepping is a recipe for despair. If you want to count something, "days on habit" is a much better metric. Checking off days on a calendar would do just fine, but if you do it here you get accountability and support. Here's how. Start a new topic in this forum called (say) "Your Name Daily Check In." Then every N day post a "reply" to that topic as to whether you stayed on habit. A simple "<font color="green">SUCCESS</font>" or "<font color="red">FAILURE</font>" (or your preferred euphemism if that's too harsh) is sufficient, but obviously you're welcome to write more if you want. On S-days just register that you're taking an S-day. You don't have to do this forever, just until you're confident you've built the habit. Feel free to check in weekly or monthly or sporadically instead of daily. Feel free also to track other habits besides No-s (I'm keeping this forum under No-s because that's what the vast majority are using it for). See also my <a href="/habitcal/">HabitCal</a> tool for another more formal (and perhaps complementary) way to track habits.

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Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:03 pm

October, 2010: Cultivating the Virtue of Temperance

Aristotle, in his Ethics, argues that the practice of virtue is what leads to the establishment of habits of virtue which is what forms the character of a virtuous person. It was in listening over and over again to The Teaching Company lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics by Fr. Joseph Koterski of Fordham University that I recognized the paramount importance of establishing habits.

People often think dieting is a matter of willpower, but willpower when discussed in the context of dieting often means the superhuman effort to constantly restrict portions (e.g. Weight Watchers) or types of food (e.g. Atkins). Successfully following these types of diets means overcoming the body’s instinct to avoid starvation. There was just too much of a survival instinct in me because I managed to diet my way up to a high of 216 pounds on September 4, 2008.

I give credit to Reinhard Engels, who wrote the book The No S Diet with Ben Kallen, for inspiring me to follow a diet in which the timing of when to eat is central to the diet. My eating was completely out of control until I started following The No S Diet on September 8, 2008 at a starting weight of 215 pounds. For more than two years, I followed a diet in which I determined when to eat using The No S Diet approach of limiting most food consumption to mealtime. I then relied on internal signals to decide when to stop eating. The inspiration for this idea comes from Intuitive Eating by Elyse Resch and Evelyn Tribole.

What was the result? I did lose weight, moving to 196.6 pounds as a low in the summer of 2009. Then I stopped losing weight and started experimenting with different variations of managing when to start eating while still allowing myself what is described in Intuitive Eating as "unconditional permission to eat."

While experimenting, I continued with research on weight loss. Yale University has a Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity, and one of the center's podcasts is an interview of Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister on self control and addiction. He said that self control is like a muscle: if exercised, it grows stronger but it also needs to rest. I decided that I needed to keep the concept of a period of time of self-control combined with a period of time of "unconditional permission to eat" but realized that my success in weight loss needed to involve a change in the period of self-control.

I started experimenting with fasting. On Saturday, October 9, 2010, I got a book called Fasting by Scot McKnight, and this book documents the ancient practice of fasting. While I had known that there were Catholic and Greek Orthodox practices of fasting twice per week, I had not known that this practice actually goes back to the Jewish practice of fasting twice per week. I decided to fast before communion on Sundays, which is another Catholic practice that ended in the early 1960s, as well as on Wednesdays and Fridays.

It seems very strange indeed that fasting would be the path to moderation in eating. In the forward to Scot McKnight's book on fasting, Phyllis Tickle quotes St. Augustine as saying: "It is sometimes necessary to check the delight of the flesh in respect to licit pleasures in order to keep it from yielding to illicit joys."

On October 16, 2010, I skimmed through the book The Four Cardinal Virtues by Josef Pieper. In a chapter on fasting, Pieper references St. Thomas Aquinas as arguing that "fasting is a commandment of the natural law". Pieper states in a strikingly disturbing way that it is "a natural, fundamental moral obligation to fast -- before and apart from ecclesiastical injunction." What Pieper means by this sentence is that fasting is necessary for everyone. As I look around me, I see lots of overweight people and think that our society has lost the wisdom of fasting as a way to moderate eating.

I wanted a simple weight loss plan, and now I have a very simple weight loss plan. Starting October October 27, 2010, I have fasting and exercise to the plan that I've followed for two years, which is a modification of The No S Diet. Here is my plan:

1. Fast from all food, when possible, on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday mornings: I try to fast from midnight until mid-afternoon on Wednesdays and Fridays and until after church (about 11:30 AM) or noon on Sundays. I am starting this program with fasting until noon on Wednesdays and Fridays and will gradually increase the length of the diet until I am fasting as long as until 3 PM. With periodic fasting, I learn how much I need to eat in order to feel satisfied. Because the fasts only last at most 20 - 21 hours, I do not experience side effects from ketosis, which is when the "brain is no longer getting enough glucose for fuel" (from Strong Women Eat Well by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson, p. 110). My fast involves the elimination of all calories, including milk in my coffee. This idea came from Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes in which both the Atkins diet and fasting are described as creating an effect of mild hunger due to the severe restriction of carbohydrates. By fasting, I am starting to enjoy the feeling of mild hunger, and I no longer feel desperate if a meal is delayed for some reason because I know I can handle many hours without food. I also know that, when I do eat, I will eat to complete satisfaction.

2. Practice “unconditional permission to eat†on all Sundays: The concept of “unconditional permission to eat†is from the book Intuitive Eating. The idea behind intuitive eating is that restrictive eating leads to “diet backlash†and weight gain. I allow myself "unconditional permission to eat" every Sunday after I break my fast at about 11:30 AM. This part of the diet appeals to the glutton in me. All week, I can look forward to Sunday afternoon and evening, to a short time when -- without guilt -- I can eat as much as I want of whatever I want. This is a dieter’s dream, and I have it reliably every single week.

3. Limit snacks and sweets to Sundays and a rolling average of two Exception Days per month: This idea is a modification of The No S Diet. When I was following conventional diets, I felt hungry all the time. Now I rarely think about food between meals. I “tune out†hunger signals outside of mealtime. At each meal, I can eat as much as I want, but I don’t have sweets and everything must be in front of me before I take one bite. Outside of mealtime, except when I am fasting, I can have liquids like milk or juice. The elimination of sweets on all but six days per month seems to have reduced the amount of sweets I can tolerate eating when I do have sweets.

I do allow myself two Exception Days per month to be used at my discretion for any reason at all. I use Exception Days for holidays like Christmas or family traditions like Santa's Breakfast or occasions that cannot in any way be categorized as special, like a particularly appealing taste test at the grocery store. On Exception Days, I have “unconditional permission to eatâ€. I do not, however, need to take an Exception Day if I have a meal during a time when I should be fasting. The Exception Days allow me the flexibility to follow with “perfect compliance†the rule of no snacks or sweets except on Sundays. I don’t remember where I read about the idea of “perfect complianceâ€, but my conviction that “perfect compliance†is essential was reinforced by listening to Koterski’s lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics. Koterski explains that Aristotle distinguishes between habits that require thought and effort and habits which are so ingrained that they are followed automatically. I wanted a diet that was easy to follow, so I decided that I needed to follow my diet perfectly. Following my diet is like brushing my teeth: I do it automatically and without much thought or effort. I also came to think of this line from Introduction to the Devout Life by Francis de la Salle as the motto for my diet: “By perfect practice of a single virtue a person can reach the heights in all virtue.†This diet has an effect on me both physically and spiritually.

4. For breakfasts on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, try to have oatmeal: Steel cut oatmeal is filling and inexpensive. I bought a small Cuisinart crock pot which can be set to 1 ½ hours for cooking oatmeal. It switches to warm after the cooking time ends. This makes cooking oatmeal easy for me, and I have a satisfying start to the day!

5. Wear a pedometer every day except on Sundays and record steps per day: I invested $30 in an Omron GoSmart pedometer with a watch and a record of steps for the prior seven days. My inspiration for this habit was from the book Move a Little, Lose a Lot by Dr. James Levine of the Mayo Clinic. He argued that it is important to build exercise into your daily routine rather than to attempt to go to a gym regularly. I try to walk 10,000 steps per day. There is effort involved in making this goal, but my life also seems calmer. I walk around while waiting for children and park in the first available spot when I am going to stores. The dog also loves her daily walks!

6. Do strengthening exercises: I am following the basic program of six exercises in the book Strong Women Stay Slim by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson. I have also added one of the optional exercises, the pelvic tilt. I am starting with a one-pound weight, and I've modified the four exercises with weights in that I use one weight at a time and stand on one leg at a time (stand on left leg when right arm has weight and stand on right leg when left arm has weight). This was an idea suggested to me by a personal trainer years ago when I brought him this book.

Dr. Nelson made the argument that “the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn. This important change comes partly from a revved-up metabolism and partly from increased physical activity – an automatic consequence of greater strength†(p. 35). When I added strengthening exercises in August, 2010, I immediately appreciated the importance of the exercises, especially since it was after only one week of strengthening exercises that I walked on rocks to cross the creek at the headwaters of the Mississippi River. I didn’t have the balance or agility of my 9 year old daughter who was scampering back and forth across the rocks. I didn’t have the balance of my husband who could walk from rock to rock. Instead, I used both hands and feet to cross the rocks in what my husband teased me was a “spider crawlâ€. I told him that I’ll be scampering over those rocks next year!


The No S Diet:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, September 8, 2008: 215.0 (goal to lose one pound per month)
I got to a low of 196.6 in summer, 2009 and then experimented with changes so that I could lose additional weight.

Temperance Approach:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Wednesday, October 27, 2010: 206.0 (Goal of 190 pounds: behind schedule by 16.0 pounds)




Weight and thoughts from current month:
Day 1 – Wednesday, October 27, 2010: 206.0. As recently as the beginning of this month, I weighed 198.4. What happened? I learned the value of The No S Diet rules! Last night, I was a driver for a Girl Scout field trip, and I had time to think while a professor was showing a food science lab to the girls. I considered that some of my options now were: 1) to continue on my current course of gaining weight at a rapid rate; 2) to modify the diet by fasting until 3 PM immediately on fast days as a way to slow the weight gain; or 3) to consider adding similar rules to the ones I first devised back in August, when I seemed to have a lot of success with getting rid of some of the weight I had gained. I decided on the third option, since it seemed the most likely to result in a lower weight soon. In addition, I'm leery of fasting until 3 PM because I think some time to adjust to that long of a fast. As a result, I'll be fasting until noon today.

Day 2 – Thursday, October 28, 2010: 202.6. Weight fluctuates, but I'm happy with this weight. I just learned in a big way the value of the no snacks and no sweets rules.

Day 3 – Friday, October 29, 2010: 201.6. I tend to think in analogies, and how I feel now is that I found a missing piece to a puzzle. The missing piece is fasting. With The No S Diet, my eating was normalized (I no longer was shoving food into my mouth whenever I was in the kitchen) and I was feeling satisfied, but I wasn't losing weight and never felt hungry. Now, with fasting, I do feel hunger, but it is for a limited time only. Due to being at a Boy Scout event last night, I couldn't have my usual large meal, so I woke up this morning with a stomach that was growling. I'm hungry. That's OK, though, because I know that I can eat as much as I want as soon as it is noon. This diet approach isn't about deprivation. It's about delayed gratification.

10:30 AM: I'm back to wearing the pedometer, but I'm not forcing myself to reach a certain number of steps. The pedometer does change my attitude towards walking. For example, my 11 year old had read a scary book and was scared to go in the garage to get homework out of the van. I was more willing to go with her because I could add steps to my pedometer! My attitude also is different about parking in a spot that is farther away from the store entrance and making an extra trip to school because my 11 year old forgot her project in the van when she was dropped off. The pedometer is a measurement of movement. It is irrelevant whether I get that movement by driving myself to the gym and walking on a walking track or by walking a display board into the school. That means that there is a benefit to me even in doing something as irritating as driving back to the school because a project was left in the van. The effect on me is to be calmer and more active as I go about my day. Pepper is not happy that her walk was delayed, so now I'm taking her out.

8 PM: Someone offered me Halloween candy at the kids' party at the school. How could I refuse? I could have refused but didn't, and now I'm after Katie and Ellie's candy! It's an Exception Day. I am sensitive to the fact that, if I have much more, I won't feel well tomorrow. Now I'm having an apple. That may be enough for sweets.

11 PM: This is the pledge from the nokidhungry.org Web site: I believe that no child in America should go hungry. By pledging today, I add my voice to the national movement of people committed to ending childhood hunger in America by 2015.

I find this pledge incredibly sad. There is a difference between saying "no child in America should go hungry" and "no child in America should be hungry." The first implies perpetual hunger, and the second does not. Still, there is a sense that hunger is a terrible, terrible thing. Is it -- really? What if being able to tolerate hunger is what distinguishes the fat from the thin? There is something very sad about the poor being obese and yet being labeled as hungry and food-insecure. Fasting teaches an acceptance of hunger.

Day 4 – Saturday, October 30, 2010: 203.6 When I have an Exception Day, why do I eat so much? I think it has to do with being able to do so. There is a modicum of willpower involved in sticking with the no snacks and no sweets rules. If I let go of them, I grab at what is in sight. Katie trusted me with her Halloween bucket last night while she was running around at the party. Then I told her I took an Exception Day, and she wanted her bucket back! It may be that this is the closest I can get to "naturally thin". There is willpower, but mostly there is habit. These Sundays and Exception Days are like releases from pressure. I think I'm on the right track now, but time will tell. It's only Day 4.

8 PM: Another Exception Day. It's hard to restore the habit of no snacks and no sweets.

Day 5 – Sunday, October 31, 2010: 203.6 To accept that my default condition is to eat as much as I want of whatever I want is to recognize that there are rules that I need to follow in order to be thin. It is to accept the reality that "naturally thin", if it is a condition that exists at all, is not a condition that I have. I printed off the section from Aquinas' Summa Theologica on fasting, and it did say that fasting is a natural law that is necessary for all. I also picked up an interesting book from the library book sale last week that was on the daily life of people living in the middle ages, and one tidbit of information I got from there is that people would wash hands before and after meals. That tidbit of information indicates to me that there were no snacks.

Now what? Am I going to be constantly analyzing, evaluating, tweaking, and speculating? Or am I going to just do it? Does it really matter if some people are naturally thin and I could be naturally thin if I just found the magic approach, or is it more appropriate for me to settle on a way of eating that allows me to be thin without being miserable? I think I need to reset expectations here. Certainly, in our culture, we are seeing that about two out of three adults are overweight or obese, so at least two out of three adults are not "naturally thin." I can accept that I am not one of the lucky few, if there are any, who are "naturally thin." I can follow rules that help me to be thin.

It's a beautiful morning, there are streaks of pink in the clouds outside as the sun begins to rise, and it is Halloween. I am sick of all the effort I've put into this, and here I am above 200 pounds. I think I have a good program now, so I think maybe I should just follow it and stop analyzing.

As I read over what I wrote, it reminded me of the most honest words I have ever heard out of the mouth of a child. My Katie, when she was in first grade and having trouble with the teacher, told me, "Mom, I just want to do what I want to do." Yes, well, I think those were honest words, but most people figure out that they can't do whatever they want to do. Maybe that's where I am with eating. I was immature in my view of eating. I thought I could eat as much as I want of whatever I want. And I was wrong.

Katie is now in sixth grade, the last year of elementary school, and one of her teachers is a woman who has taught sixth grade for 32 years. We've already had a meeting with her, and she was just masterful in her dealings with Katie. And now Katie is putting more effort into her work.

Tom has certainly seen the similarity in personality between Katie and me, and so have I. I think I've had a wake-up call now, and now I can follow this diet with cheerfulness knowing it is necessary for me to be healthy.
Last edited by Kathleen on Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:51 pm, edited 110 times in total.

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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:29 pm

Kathleen wrote: “Portion control†necessarily means eating less than you want,
so it necessarily requires willpower rather than habit.
The above statement troubles me,
not because of the personal choice concept that is involved,
but because of, what I perceive to, be illogical reasoning.

In response to your above-quoted statement,
I made a long and esoteric post on my Daily Thread.
I hope you will take the time to carefully and thoughtfully read it,
and add that information to your intellectual data bank.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:12 pm

Kathleen wrote: If I don't want to control portions,
then I need to follow eating rules that guarantee I eat less.
Exactly !!! Image
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Post by Kathleen » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:48 pm

BrightAngel,
Thanks for being my cheering squad. I was pretty down when I stepped on the scale this morning, but really -- what was I thinking when I polished off the Oreo cookies?
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:05 pm

Kathleen wrote:BrightAngel,
Thanks for being my cheering squad.
Image Just to let you know...
I check to read the new posts in your Thread every day.
I'm very interested in your Thought Processes re Weight-loss issues.
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Post by Kathleen » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:33 pm

BrightAngel,
That's nice to know! As you can see from my diet explanation, the book Good Calories, Bad Calories really affected my thinking about fasting, and that book was one you had recommended to me.
Kathleen

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Post by connorcream » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:56 pm

Kathleen wrote:BrightAngel,
That's nice to know! As you can see from my diet explanation, the book Good Calories, Bad Calories really affected my thinking about fasting, and that book was one you had recommended to me.
Kathleen
It affected my family's thinking and we have a variety of issues- weight (myself), Crohn's (DS 21 yrs, low weight), high cholesterol and gout (28 yr old athletic very fit former soldier SIL).
connorcream
5'8.5"
48 yrs
Started calorie counting
10/6/2009
start/current
192/mid 120's maintaining
Maintaining a year

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Post by BrightAngel » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:48 pm

Kathleen wrote:3 p.m. I am bored still.
I decided to try dispensing with the snack restriction.
Image To become aware of a possible eating issue:
Edit a sentence or two from yesterday's comment,
and look what remains.
Essentially,
"I felt bored, and I decided it was okay to snack."
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Post by Kathleen » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:34 pm

Hi BrightAngel,
I literally laughed out loud when I read your comment! I decided maybe I needed the "no snack" restriction anyway. I thought I probably had snacked in anticipation of a very late dinner because of leaving the house to take two children to swim team at 3:45 PM and returning from a meeting at 8:30 PM. I was puzzled, however, because fasting really is teaching me to manage without food for several hours. I believe you figured out yesterday's problem!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:54 pm

Kathleen wrote: Day 1– Sunday, October 17, 2010
The core of this diet is fasting.

Fasting is a way to learn how to eat an appropriate amount
because there are periodic times when you fast
and times when you eat to satisfaction.
There is a rhythm to this.

In contrast, a "portion control" approach
-- at least in my experience -- is relentless misery.
A portion control approach almost seems Machievellian to me
because the desire to be thin is set against the striving to survive.

Fasting is a way that a person can keep the appetite in check.
I am interested in watching your experience with this plan during the next few months. Image
Remember, EVERY day is actually is "Day One"...
.....but also manyThousand and one....

There is NO perfection possible.
Life is a continuation of efforts.
There really aren't any "do-overs",
and we never really start over.

We build on the old while making appropriate changes,
....excluding a bit of old, including a bit of new...
It is an ONGOING PROCESS.
We learn, we change,
we fall back, we relearn, we change. etc. etc. etc.
One step forward, five steps back, seven steps forward, three steps back,
and so it goes.
I just want to tell you....: Image
Don't burden yourself with requirements for diet perfection.
Image Give yourself a break,
you have a plan, you are working to follow it.
The fact is: you will follow it successfully sometimes,
and you will fail to follow it sometimes.
Adding to a plan or eliminating things from it are fine,
but sometimes it isn't necessary to actually change your plan.
Sometimes...failure to follow a plan simply means,
that you just need more time with it,
and need to keep working toward fitting yourself into your existing plan.
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:53 pm

Hi BrightAngel,

My perfection is to take Exception Days. My assessment of your diet is that your perfection is to record all calories no matter what. I would compare my approach to brushing my teeth. I suppose there could be circumstances under which I might not brush my teeth, but those circumstances would be extreme: our house burning down, for example.

I'm not too eager to follow this diet, in part because my following of the "no snacks" guideline has fallen apart as I've gone through one short experiment after another. I'm making this diet my number one priority.

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:11 pm

Kathleen,
Image I recently did a post on my Daily Thread
about a Fasting technique that you might find interesting.
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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Kathleen wrote: At least yesterday I didn't change the diet
as a way to excuse eating outside of mealtime.
That was progress.
That IS progress. Image

BTW, Today is Wednesday,
and did you notice that today around 11 a.m.
you found a reason to change your fasting time from 3 p.m. back to 12 p.m.
.....which gave you an excuse to eat almost immediately,
instead of waiting another 3 hours today???
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Post by Kathleen » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:43 pm

BrightAngel,
Yes, that is true! I think the boredom eating was completely unjustified -- I should have taken the dog for a walk instead. In this instance, I am puzzled by a completely unwarranted fear of fasting. Actually, I recall being terrified when I started The No S Diet. Those years of dieting put the fear of experiencing any sort of hunger into me, and I'm not sure why. Did I think any experience of hunger would lead to a binge? Anyway, recognizing that fear, I decided to ease into fasting. Besides, I also am giving a presentation this afternoon. Even to fourth graders, ti's not exactly my strength, but the kids love my doing it and so I do. I did start out with fasting -- before no snacking fell apart -- by waiting to eat until 12:30 and then trying to move it to 12:45. I figured I could manage if I waited until 12 today and next week on my fast days and then moved it back 15 minutes every fortnight. Tweak, tweak, tweak... I hope this is the last Day 1! Your comments always spur me to consider my motivation! Thank you!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Kathleen wrote: I'm going to keep trying until I get this,
even if I go through 100 Day 1s.

I shall test this out and see.
I think you might find today's post on my Daily Thread encouraging. Image
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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:07 pm

Kathleen wrote: ...."changes in my eating that naturally occur"....
I believe you have stated your difficulty here "in a nutshell".
No matter what the food plan is....or whether or not it includes fasting,
The CHANCES THAT THE KIND OF CHANGE...
in any Obese person's eating Habits that will cause any kind of substantial weight drop....
WILL EVER "NATURALLY OCCUR" are almost ZERO.

There is no scientific, or historical evidence, supporting this Desire.
It is merely a Wish that will always remain unfulfilled.
Obesity is a PHYSICAL problem...a problem OF THE BODY,
not just a moral or philosophical, or mental problem.

An Obese body will do everything in its power
....which includes using its Hormones to make one feel famished,
and to slow down its own metabolic functions....,
to maintain or exceed its current weight..
as a simple matter of survival, no matter how fat it might be.

An Obese body will never NATURALLY become a Normal weight body.
Intuitive eating might bring psychological peace
and acceptance of obesity to a person with an eating disorder,
but it won't bring an obese body to "normality" without effort.
Also Fasting doesn't commonly provide a religious "miracle" such as "divine healing".
Fasting can temporarily relieve one from Hunger,
but when Hunger returns, it brings along its friends.

Both Initial and Ongoing EFFORT is a requirement of such change.
As long as one continues to expect one's Body to correct itself NATURALLY,
one will remain obese.

ACCEPTANCE of this issue is the STARTING Point of a weight-loss journey.
But there are many "Experts" out there
...including trainers, nutritionists, and psychologists...
who pander to the unrealistic dream of weight-loss without effort
to benefit themselves financially.
While some of these are mis-informed,
many of them simply provide "well-intentioned", "motivating" lies.

My Thread contains recent posts which could be helpful for weight-loss.
There isn't just ONE way, but EVERY way takes effort.
For an Obese person, weight-loss and maintenance of weight-loss, is not a "NATURAL" occurance.
It will always involve...in some manner...
fighting the desire to overeat
that is NATURALLY created by one's obese or reduced obese body.
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 pm

BrightAngel,
The idea of using fasting to "naturally" reduce desire for food is not, for me, grounded in any sort of thought that I could be the recipient of a divine miracle. What Pieper says about Aquinas' view is that fasting is part of natural law: natural law is the basis of religious law but is not dependent on it. I am not a religious scholar. I am not a philosopher. I have had zero familiarity with the history of fasting since I started doing research in the last year or so. I am exploring what I think may be present based on a few scattered references. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. The bottom line is this: I prefer being obese to constant restriction of calories. It's a decision I did not make at any one point in time. It's a decision that I made after successfully counting calories and then having my approach fall apart after our fourth child was born. You may well be right. What's nice is that you have pinpointed where we disagree.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:30 pm

Kathleen wrote:When I have an Exception Day, why do I eat so much?
There is a modicum of willpower involved in sticking with the no snacks and no sweets rules.
If I let go of them, I grab at what is in sight.
It may be that this is the closest I can get to "naturally thin".

Perhaps merely a Rhetorical question,
asked for effect with no answer expected.
However, the Answer to the question is:
"Because it's your DEFAULT."
For those of us who are obese, or like me “reduced obeseâ€,
our DEFAULT is the desire to eat
….whatever tasty food that is available…as frequently as possible…
which means whenever our stomachs have any room for food.

The concept: “unconditional permission to eat†is essentially Default eating.

This is just the way the Body works.
An obese, or a “reduced obese†Body wants a great deal of food..
It wants to eat at least as much food as is necessary to sustain its current body weight.
No Magic here. Image
This is a physiological truth…not merely a moral or psychological problem.
For More Info, carefully read (or re-read) my post subject: REALITY CHECK.
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... &start=300
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:11 pm

BrightAngel,
On this point, I would agree with you 100%. It is my default. My several days of allowing snacks and sweet convinced me of that! It's embarrassing to make a batch of cookies and then make a second and a third to hide how many cookies you ate. I was surprised. Now I'm having some trouble returning to no snacks and no sweets, but I am convinced of its necessity.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:19 pm

Kathleen wrote:Sunday, October 31, 2010
To accept that my default condition
is to eat as much as I want of whatever I want
is to recognize that there are rules
that I need to follow in order to be thin.
It is to accept the reality that "naturally thin",
if it is a condition that exists at all,
is not a condition that I have.
Image Congratulations, Kathleen
Gaining that insight can help you suceed with a weight-loss journey.
Also.....Happy Halloween.
Image
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:39 pm

BrightAngel,
Sometimes reality can be hard to accept. A friend of mine has a sister who has four children, the youngest of whom is in kindergarten, and her husband has been diagnosed by the Mayo Clinic with terminal cancer. She believes that God will heal her husband, and all he needs is faith. My reality is much less dire, and yet I have refused to face it: I cannot expect to be thin and still eat as much as I want of whatever I want. I finally accept that I am not naturally thin and never will be naturally thin. How silly to have had that as a goal!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:57 pm

Kathleen wrote: I finally accept that I am not naturally thin
and never will be naturally thin.
How silly to have had that as a goal!
Don't judge yourself too harshly, Image
there are many people who refuse to give up that Fantasy.

Personally, I can't make myself into a "naturally thin" person,
any more than I can make my 5'0" body grow to be 6'0".
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:23 am

November, 2010: Cultivating the Virtue of Temperance

Aristotle, in his Ethics, argues that the practice of virtue is what leads to the establishment of habits of virtue which is what forms the character of a virtuous person. It was in listening over and over again to The Teaching Company lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics by Fr. Joseph Koterski of Fordham University that I recognized the paramount importance of establishing habits.

People often think dieting is a matter of willpower, but willpower when discussed in the context of dieting often means the superhuman effort to constantly restrict portions (e.g. Weight Watchers) or types of food (e.g. Atkins). Successfully following these types of diets means overcoming the body’s instinct to avoid starvation. There was just too much of a survival instinct in me because I managed to diet my way up to a high of 216 pounds on September 4, 2008.

I give credit to Reinhard Engels, who wrote the book The No S Diet with Ben Kallen, for inspiring me to follow a diet in which the timing of when to eat is central to the diet. My eating was completely out of control until I started following The No S Diet on September 8, 2008 at a starting weight of 215 pounds. For more than two years, I followed a diet in which I determined when to eat using The No S Diet approach of limiting most food consumption to mealtime. I then relied on internal signals to decide when to stop eating. The inspiration for this idea comes from Intuitive Eating by Elyse Resch and Evelyn Tribole.

What was the result? I did lose weight, moving to 196.6 pounds as a low in the summer of 2009. Then I stopped losing weight and started experimenting with different variations of managing when to start eating while still allowing myself what is described in Intuitive Eating as "unconditional permission to eat."

While experimenting, I continued with research on weight loss. Yale University has a Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity, and one of the center's podcasts is an interview of Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister on self control and addiction. He said that self control is like a muscle: if exercised, it grows stronger but it also needs to rest. I decided that I needed to keep the concept of a period of time of self-control combined with a period of time of "unconditional permission to eat" but realized that my success in weight loss needed to involve a change in the period of self-control.

I started experimenting with fasting. On Saturday, October 9, 2010, I got a book called Fasting by Scot McKnight, and this book documents the ancient practice of fasting. While I had known that there were Catholic and Greek Orthodox practices of fasting twice per week, I had not known that this practice actually goes back to the Jewish practice of fasting twice per week. I decided to fast before communion on Sundays, which is another Catholic practice that ended in the early 1960s, as well as on Wednesdays and Fridays.

It seems very strange indeed that fasting would be the path to moderation in eating. In the forward to Scot McKnight's book on fasting, Phyllis Tickle quotes St. Augustine as saying: "It is sometimes necessary to check the delight of the flesh in respect to licit pleasures in order to keep it from yielding to illicit joys."

On October 16, 2010, I skimmed through the book The Four Cardinal Virtues by Josef Pieper. In a chapter on fasting, Pieper references St. Thomas Aquinas as arguing that "fasting is a commandment of the natural law". Pieper states in a strikingly disturbing way that it is "a natural, fundamental moral obligation to fast -- before and apart from ecclesiastical injunction." What Pieper means by this sentence is that fasting is necessary for everyone. As I look around me, I see lots of overweight people and think that our society has lost the wisdom of fasting as a way to moderate eating.


I wanted a simple weight loss plan, and now I have a very simple weight loss plan. Starting October October 27, 2010, I have added fasting and exercise to the plan that I've followed for two years, which is a modification of The No S Diet. Here is my plan:

1. Fast from all food, when possible, on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday mornings: I try to fast from midnight until noon on Wednesdays and Fridays and until after church (about 11:30 AM) or noon on Sundays. I am starting this program with fasting until noon on Wednesdays and Fridays. With periodic fasting, I learn how much I need to eat in order to feel satisfied. Because the fasts only last at most 20 - 21 hours, I do not experience side effects from ketosis, which is when the "brain is no longer getting enough glucose for fuel" (from Strong Women Eat Well by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson, p. 110). My fast involves the elimination of all calories, including milk in my coffee. This idea came from Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes in which both the Atkins diet and fasting are described as creating an effect of mild hunger due to the severe restriction of carbohydrates. By fasting, I am starting to enjoy the feeling of mild hunger, and I no longer feel desperate if a meal is delayed for some reason because I know I can handle many hours without food. I also know that, when I do eat, I will eat to complete satisfaction.

2. Practice “unconditional permission to eat†on all Sundays: The concept of “unconditional permission to eat†is from the book Intuitive Eating. The idea behind intuitive eating is that restrictive eating leads to “diet backlash†and weight gain. I allow myself "unconditional permission to eat" every Sunday after I break my fast at about 11:30 AM. This part of the diet appeals to the glutton in me. All week, I can look forward to Sunday afternoon and evening, to a short time when -- without guilt -- I can eat as much as I want of whatever I want. This is a dieter’s dream, and I have it reliably every single week.

3. Limit snacks and sweets to Sundays and a rolling average of two Exception Days per month: This idea is a modification of The No S Diet. When I was following conventional diets, I felt hungry all the time. Now I rarely think about food between meals. I “tune out†hunger signals outside of mealtime. At each meal, I can eat as much as I want, but I don’t have sweets and everything must be in front of me before I take one bite. Outside of mealtime, except when I am fasting, I can have liquids like milk or juice. The elimination of sweets on all but six days per month seems to have reduced the amount of sweets I can tolerate eating when I do have sweets.

I do allow myself two Exception Days per month to be used at my discretion for any reason at all. I use Exception Days for holidays like Christmas or family traditions like Santa's Breakfast or occasions that cannot in any way be categorized as special, like a particularly appealing taste test at the grocery store. On Exception Days, I have “unconditional permission to eatâ€. I do not, however, need to take an Exception Day if I have a meal during a time when I should be fasting. The Exception Days allow me the flexibility to follow with “perfect compliance†the rule of no snacks or sweets except on Sundays. I don’t remember where I read about the idea of “perfect complianceâ€, but my conviction that “perfect compliance†is essential was reinforced by listening to Koterski’s lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics. Koterski explains that Aristotle distinguishes between habits that require thought and effort and habits which are so ingrained that they are followed automatically. I wanted a diet that was easy to follow, so I decided that I needed to follow my diet perfectly. Following my diet is like brushing my teeth: I do it automatically and without much thought or effort. I also came to think of this line from Introduction to the Devout Life by Francis de la Salle as the motto for my diet: “By perfect practice of a single virtue a person can reach the heights in all virtue.†This diet has an effect on me both physically and spiritually.

4. For breakfasts on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, try to have oatmeal: Steel cut oatmeal is filling and inexpensive. I bought a small Cuisinart crock pot which can be set to 1 ½ hours for cooking oatmeal. It switches to warm after the cooking time ends. This makes cooking oatmeal easy for me, and I have a satisfying start to the day!

5. Wear a pedometer every day except on Sundays and record steps per day: I invested $30 in an Omron GoSmart pedometer with a watch and a record of steps for the prior seven days. My inspiration for this habit was from the book Move a Little, Lose a Lot by Dr. James Levine of the Mayo Clinic. He argued that it is important to build exercise into your daily routine rather than to attempt to go to a gym regularly. I try to walk 10,000 steps per day. There is effort involved in making this goal, but my life also seems calmer. I walk around while waiting for children and park in the first available spot when I am going to stores. The dog also loves her daily walks!

6. Do strengthening exercises: I am following the basic program of six exercises in the book Strong Women Stay Slim by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson. I have also added one of the optional exercises, the pelvic tilt. I am starting with a one-pound weight, and I've modified the four exercises with weights in that I use one weight at a time and stand on one leg at a time (stand on left leg when right arm has weight and stand on right leg when left arm has weight). This was an idea suggested to me by a personal trainer years ago when I brought him this book.

Dr. Nelson made the argument that “the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn. This important change comes partly from a revved-up metabolism and partly from increased physical activity – an automatic consequence of greater strength†(p. 35). When I added strengthening exercises in August, 2010, I immediately appreciated the importance of the exercises, especially since it was after only one week of strengthening exercises that I walked on rocks to cross the creek at the headwaters of the Mississippi River. I didn’t have the balance or agility of my 9 year old daughter who was scampering back and forth across the rocks. I didn’t have the balance of my husband who could walk from rock to rock. Instead, I used both hands and feet to cross the rocks in what my husband teased me was a “spider crawlâ€. I told him that I’ll be scampering over those rocks next year!


The No S Diet:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, September 8, 2008: 215.0 (goal to lose one pound per month)
I got to a low of 196.6 in summer, 2009 and then experimented with changes so that I could lose additional weight.

Temperance Approach:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Wednesday, October 27, 2010: 206.0 (Goal of 190 pounds: behind schedule by 16.0 pounds)
(Month 2) Day 7 – Tuesday, November 2, 2010: 204.2 (Goal of 189 pounds: behind schedule by 15.2 pounds)

Starting Number of Weekday Exception Days = 0 (Carryover)
+ 2 (This Month’s Allocation)
= 2.

Day 6 – Monday, November 1, 2010: Last night, I read some pages from Aquinas' Summa Theologica on fasting. On Fast Days, people had one meal at about 3 PM. That' not something I'm willing to do. I'm not willing to have one meal at 6 PM because then I will experience ketosis, and I'm not willing to have one meal at 3 PM because family meals are important. As a result, I'm going to have a less stringent approach to fasting than was the norm centuries ago. I'm also going to add a Fast Day on Mondays to compensate for the more relaxed approach to fasting. Greek Orthodox women fasted on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Catholics fasted on Wednesdays, Fridays, and sometimes Saturdays. Between Monday and Saturday, I'm choosing Monday as my third fast day. I would feel more confident in my approach if I could simply copy what was done centuries ago, but the community supported that approach and my life would be altered if I wasn't eating an evening meal with my family three times per week. I need to accommodate others.

Day 7 – Tuesday, November 2, 2010: 204.2 Yesterday, I had oatmeal and an apple at around 1:30 PM. I had dinner at about 7:30 because I was at a study group. Dinner was a chicken and rice meal. After dinner, I then had some more dinner and then was into the Halloween candy. Why? I woke up this morning and thought that I'm not sure I can fast and follow The No S Diet rules at the same time, and I'm not quite sure why. The encouraging development in all this is that I want to eat moderately right now.

I got somewhat distracted by reading all these religious texts on fasting when what I want to do is concentrate on the physical effects. I think I'm just going to experiment and see what happens. I feel much more comfortable with taking an approach of just fasting if I have three fast days per week plus Sunday morning. The nice thing about recording this is that I can go back and see what happens. If this experiment fails, I won't try it again.

2 PM: Three drumsticks later, I feel sick and somewhat disgusted. I think what I need to do is focus on how my body feels when I eat certain things and when I eat too much or too little. Fasting is a reminder that eating less can feel good. I look forward to tomorrow's fast.

9 PM: Katie and Ellie are guarding their Halloween candy, and I'm feeling bad about my switch back to allowing snacks and sweets. Maybe what I need to do is be more moderate in my fasting. After all, I started considering it because I never felt hungry and though that I would need to feel hunger in order to lose weight. As a result, I'm going to just try skipping breakfast three days per week and return to the basic diet I've followed for two years which at least got me below 200 pounds.

Day 8 – Wednesday, November 3, 2010: There was no way I was going to weigh myself today -- too discouraging. I feel disgusted with myself for being after Katie and Ellie for their Halloween candy, but at least I didn't steal any during the day...At least I didn't stoop that low! I thought that the no snacks and no sweets rules were so well-established that I would just naturally tend to follow them even without purposefully following them. The reason why I thought that was that it had become so easy to follow them. Was I ever wrong! I needed those rules.

I also figured out that fasting does allow me to experience hunger, which is good, but I cannot seem to combine The No S Diet rules with fasting. Why not? I don't know. Reading through Aquinas' question on fasting, I am trying to figure out what was considered normal eating and what was considered fasting. It's hard to tell, but the clue is this sentence: "the right and common custom is for men to eat about the sixth hour." The sixth hour was noon. I wonder if people ate breakfast.... What is stated later in that same question (IIa IIae w. 147 a. 7) is "In order that those who fast may feel some pain in satisfaction for their sins, the ninth hour is suitably fixed for their meal." It appears that fasting moved the meal from noon to 3 PM, and the justification is that people feel "pain for their sins". I don't know... I think there may be more of a "natural law" reason for fasting, which is you learn to tolerate hunger and aren't in a panic if a meal is delayed. I'm living in a time when there are three meals per day, so giving up breakfast is a change in custom. I really don't know what I'm doing, but I do know that I'm up to about 205 and The No S Diet rules got me below 200. If I can give up breakfast three days per week, that's a change that may help my weight to go lower. I'm scared to step on the scale for the moment, so I won't. How sad. How sad all the time I've wasted going back and forth, back and forth, trying to figure out what to do.

3 PM: I'm only at about 3,500 steps because I met with two different people today and wore pants without pockets. This is part of adjusting to needing a way to monitor physical activity. In future, I won't buy pants without pockets. Meanwhile, I'll try to get to 10,000 steps on my pedometer today.

Day 9 – Thursday, November 4, 2010: 205.6 I was courageous enough to step on the scale this morning. I recognize now the power of fasting, but I also recognize the need for simple rules of no snacks and no sweets. Over the past two months or so, I have relived how I lived for years and years - dealing with out of control binges. It is dreadful. I don't want to return there. I think that I need to take a very slow approach to fasting. As a result, I'm going to follow this program -- I hope until next summer -- of skipping breakfast three days per week. I also am finding that I hate doing the strengthening exercises. As a result, I'm going to split the exercises into two parts -- the weight exercises and the non-weight exercises. I can do 3 on one day and 4 on the next. That should make it easier for me. I did get above 10,000 steps yesterday. I think that I need exercise, and this is a good step in the right direction (or rather, 10,000 steps!)

I did have a failure last night in that I ate after dinner, but I had no snacks other than that and no sweets all day. It's as if I am reliving the first week on this diet back in 2008 when I started off with four straight failures. I'll get there...

9:30 PM: I finally made it a day without snacks or sweets but only with 8.000 steps.
Day 1 – Friday, November 5, 2010: 204.8 I have a job interview on Tuesday, my first interview since I started looking at the beginning of September. It's a 4 - 6 week contract position. I want this whole diet thing to be in the background, and I hope I can do so by following the habits I have listed. Today I skip breakfast.

8:30 PM: I made it until 7:30 PM tonight before I went on the munch. Why? I think the answer is very human: lack of commitment. There has to be a point in time when a commitment is made. Sadly, I've had difficulty with this because I made a commitment to Intuitive Eating and then was chastened by the results. I then made a commitment to The No S Diet only to plateau at a 20 pound weight loss. Now what? I think I need to make a long term commitment to this diet but not box myself into a lifelong commitment. So -- for how long? I can commit to Christmas of next year.

That means I don't have to be writing about my experience or weighing myself. My long term goal has been to move thinking about my diet to one of my first of month tasks, along with changing the furnace filter and giving the dog a worm pill.

There are so many more things I can be doing than worrying about my weight. This program, as "lame" as it is (as my kids would say), is an improvement over my prior program because:
1. I do have a commitment to exercise.
2. I do experience hunger.

It's time to commit -- right now, according to my computer, at 8:39 PM today. It's my parents' 61st wedding anniversary, and they are in Hawaii celebrating. Their close marriage has been a gift to me. I can remember this day as the day I finally got over the hump and made the commitment.

Day 3 – Sunday, November 7, 2010: I realized that Friday was my Day 1 because I was willing to commit. I made it through Saturday following the diet rules and getting over 10,000 steps and doing the strengthening exercises. Today I did not eat until after lunch, and now I have my time of "unconditional permission to eat." On Friday night, I put on a sapphire ring as a reminder to me of this diet and my commitment to it until Christmas of next year. When I was single and following The Novena Diet for nine days in a row, I would wear a sapphire ring as a reminder.

It would be nice to know ahead of time that this diet will work for me, but I realize that -- while the Intuitive Eating approach did not work -- I do incorporate the idea of "unconditional permission to eat" in this approach, only for a limited time of Sundays after noon and an average of two Exception Days per month. My modification of The No S Diet meant sanity in eating and a twenty pound weight loss, but I was still obese. Still, I have the rules from that diet in this approach. I have added to both Intuitive Eating and The No S Diet in what I am doing now. I can be committed to life to what I am doing now, but I need to be open to the possibility that I will need to add to these rules in order to get to an acceptable weight.

It's really, really nice to have made the commitment that I am not changing this diet for at least 400 days.

Day 4 – Monday, November 8, 2010: Yesterday showed progress of a sort: I didn't eat so much that I had to go to bed early. I actually had dinner. We watched Toy Story 3 as a family. I was stuffed but not so stuffed as to feel sick. I am poured into blue jeans and stepped on the scale but stepped off before the scale settled on a number. What I did see was 207.2. It's OK, though. I have added to rules that got me to 196, so I can be confident that these rules will get me below 196. Although the exercise program is minimal, it exists and previously I had no scheduled exercise. I am not confident I will get to an acceptable weight following this program. I am confident I will get to a lower weight and am capable of following this program for life.

Day 5 – Tuesday, November 9, 2010: 206.8 I decided to face the music and weigh myself this morning. Wow... that's all I can think... If I needed any evidence for the usefulness of the no snacks and no sweets rule, this is it. It took very little time (from the beginning of October to now) for me to gain 8 pounds. Incredible. It reminds me of a friend of mine telling me how disgusted she was with her children. She gets after them every day to pick up but, when she was gone for three days, she returned to a messy home. Why? Had they not gotten into the habit of picking up? Well, maybe, just maybe, it takes a little bit of effort to stick to the habit of picking up or following the no snacks and no sweets rules. I think that the key to less effort is to simply not entertain the idea of dropping the rules. Now that I am lathered in fat -- now that I can literally feel increased fat just above my elbows and in my stomach -- I am 100% convinced that I need to stay within the framework of no snacks or sweets except on Sundays and a rolling average of two Exception Days per month. The evaluation of my diet will shift now to the other rules about exercise, eating oatmeal, and fasting. Since I'm taking a break for a year from any sort of change to my diet, I can take my time in evaluating changes. Meanwhile, the dog needs a walk, and I have my first interview today.

3 PM: Interviewing is unnerving, but I'm sticking to my diet plan. I feel good about the prospect of losing weight in a way that is sustainable and promotes health. Meanwhile, I need to turn my attention to our family's financial health -- AND GET A JOB!!!

9 PM: It was a real struggle to get through today. I was definitely trading on the margin, so to speak, about how I handled dinner: standing in front of the dinner on the stove while I popped popcorn to eat before serving dinner. Everything was in front of me before I took one bite, but it was the serving for the entire family. I also had a beer -- how funny! I wanted anything I could put my hands on to consume. It's almost like it was at the start of this diet, only a much milder version than I initially endured. I had given up a valuable habit. Now I'm restoring it.

Day 6 – Wednesday, November 10, 2010: 205.6 I am happy that my weight went down a pound, and today is a Fast Morning. Maybe I can get below 200 pounds by Thanksgiving. One change I am making is to watch Anderson Cooper while doing my strengthening exercises. I absolutely detest doing them, but I am convinced of the importance of doing them. I can be better motivated if I do something I enjoy (watching Anderson Cooper) as a way to distract myself from doing something I don't like (the strengthening exercises). Also, I've split them into two groups, so I do one group of three exercises on one day followed by one group of four exercises on the next day. This means the exercises take no more than 15 minutes per day. It's hard to believe that so little time can have such a big impact, but it does. I recognize it in even minor changes like my balance as I put on jeans. I'm not willing to sit down while putting on pants or socks, so I need better balance.

12:30 PM: I was smart. This morning, I felt ravenous and was having a difficult time fasting, but I had anticipated this problem and scheduled coffee with a dear friend. I had black coffee and two hours worth of conversation. By the time I picked up dry cleaning and got home, it was just after noon. Yes, I had a huge lunch, including an entire bowl of popcorn. That's OK. What matters is that I don't eat between now and dinner. Now is the time for the dog to go for a walk. I was also happy because I was just contacted about going through an interview with another employer. It is a relief to have settled on a diet program. The dog is fairly unconvinced I will hoist myself out of the computer chair and take her for a walk, but that is exactly what I am going to do right now! After all, I'm only up to 2,905 steps.

Day 7 – Thursday, November 11, 2010: 204.0 Here's another big drop in weight. I cannot count on this trend continuing, but it is encouraging to see. Last night, I got less than I would have desired because I treated the kids to a rotisserie chicken because I was told I am the top candidate for a job and there is one more candidate who needs to be interviewed. The kids like rotisserie chicken. I got so little that I woke up at about 2 AM hungry. The positive aspect of this situation is that I could tell myself at 2 AM that I will have a large breakfast -- even a very large breakfast -- to compensate for the inadequate dinner. I could also remember the times -- the countless times -- that I tried counting calories and would wake from hunger, only to face the prospect of feeling this way for the rest of my life. With this diet, I can eat to complete satisfaction eighteen times per week (at all meals except breakfast three times per week) and with gluttonous abandon one time per week (Sunday from noon until midnight.) Knowing that, I can handle a little hunger at 2 AM. Also, next time, I may serve myself first!

Day 8 – Friday, November 12, 2010: 204.2 I lost so much weight on the scale the last few days that I figured there might be an increase on the scale today, and there was. My focus needs to be on following the rules of the diet and not on today's weight on the scale. I may take an Exception Day today because I and a friend are going to a malt shop. We'll see. I may just have pop instead. It's been rough to adjust back to the no snacks and no sweets rules, and I don't know why. Last night, I had a huge meal and still felt hungry. Today is a Fast Morning, so I don't eat until noon.

5 PM. Exception Day. A coffee malt at Snuffy's Malt Shop was just too tempting!

7:45 PM: We were going to go out to dinner tonight, but the first storm of the season is rolling in, so Tom decided to follow the lead of many neighbors who are out in the dark raking up the last of the leaves. I'm glad we didn't go out because I'm stuffed anyway. I only fasted until 11:30 AM before I started eating. Because I can feel the extra weight I have gained in the last few weeks, I decided that maybe my diet needed to be stricter -- and then I realized that there's a reason why I have committed to this approach for a year: the constant tweaking was part of the reason for the weight gain. I have a very, very easy program. The only part that requires "perfect compliance" is the core of the old diet in which I do not snack or have sweets except on Sundays and Exception Days. The fasting and exercises are optional add-ons, which means it's OK that I didn't fast until noon. In just a couple of months, I managed to fall out of the habit of no snacks or sweets except on Sundays and Exception Days, and that habit is what reined in the binge behavior. It's OK. I've learned. As for my jobhunting, I've got two potential jobs. I had two phone interviews this week. I'm learning there, too. I hesitated with one job because the manager started out by asking if I needed to do anything at night because this wasn't an 8 to 5 job. I then talked to the recruiter and really screwed up my chances because I said I do need to attend occasional band concerts. Oh, well. Again, there is a need to go up a learning curve. With this darn diet, I have learned many things. I do think I'm on the right track, but it is so darn hard to be patient. I'm only one week into this diet. The dog benefits... She loves her walks, and I do feel better getting some exercise. I do feel more in control by fasting. This approach is an improvement over the prior diet which was a less stringent No S Diet.

Day 9 – Saturday, November 13, 2010: 205.6 The damage wasn't too bad from yesterday's Exception Day because I expected to be up near 207. I need to focus on creating habits and let the diet play out over time.
As I look back, I am realizing that this approach has had four distinct phases:
Phase 1: Intuitive Eating starting 12/7/07
Phase 2: No S Diet with two S Days per week starting 9/8/08
Phase 3: No S Diet with one S Day per week starting 5/23/09
Phase 4: Temperance Approach starting 11/5/10

I am slowly extricating myself from obsession with food. This approach requires phases. I've been looking for what my son has termed "the magic diet", bur really it is about building habits over time. I've got as much as I can handle right now even though my so-called fast is really just skipping breakfast three times per week.

8:30 AM: I got up late this morning, so I had cereal instead of oatmeal. It is the first snow of the season, and our two younger girls already made a snowman. Neither of them have had breakfast yet. They were too excited about the snow!

As I looked out the window at them and thought about how the snow took priority over food for them, I realized that the approach of constant calorie counting and restricting amount to eat moves food to the top of a priority list. There is a sense of constant hunger is a society in which there is a campaign against hunger as a "terrible, terrible thing" which is how I heard hunger described by someone on the radio once. Is hunger really a "terrible, terrible thing"? I just think we have a societal view of hunger that is behind the obesity epidemic. That's why fasting -- the deliberate decision to become hungry -- could be the way to counter the societal view.

7 PM: I had an entire bowl of popcorn before dinner, arguing to myself that everything was before me before I took one bite. I explained to my family that I am adjusting back to the no snacks and no sweets rule. Once I adjust back, I am never giving it up. It is easier to adjust than it was when I first started two years ago, but I don't want to go through this adjustment again.

Day 1 – Sunday, November 14, 2010: 205.6 My commitment to stick with this approach lasted all of nine days. I'm on Phase 4 of the approach to have no portion control, and I can anticipate at least one more phase if I am to become thin. No thanks. The transitions to a new phase have been so rocky that I don't want to go through yet another phase, so I'm changing my approach yet again. It's terrible to have yet another Day 1. It's terrible, but the pain today is to avoid pain tomorrow. The change is in how much I fast. Right now, I'm fasting Sunday morning until after church and Mondays and Wednesdays until noon. Now I'm going to add Mondays as a Fast Day but not limit myself to noon. I'll start with noon and gradually increase the amount of time of the fast until perhaps 3 PM. That was my approach last month, but I went too fast and ended up messing up the no snacks and no sweets guidelines. All this thrashing around is very disturbing. Meanwhile, the dog is looking at me wondering when she'll get a walk, and two of the girls are up playing games. My life is ebbing away with my analyzing diet. No, this must end. This approach allows me to gradually increase the fast time. I've already decided against a portion control approach no matter what, and fasting seems to be the only approach that is manageable for me other than ultra exercise which is just not something I want to do.

A group of three couples has met periodically to read through books, and one person suggested Augustine's Confessions. Last night, I was skimming through it, since I own it and had read it in college. I found this interesting tidbit from Book VIII, chapter 3" "Men...procure for themselves the pleasures of this life by means of pain, not unexpected pain, but pain which they deliberately induce for themselves. There is no pleasure in eating and drinking unless it is preceded by the discomfort of hunger and thirst." This line of reasoning is absolutely foreign to me. I enjoyed a Snuffy's Malt Shoppe coffee malt even though I wasn't the least bit hungry or thirsty. Is it possible that I simply don't know what is is to enjoy food when I am actually hungry? My understanding of fasting and the effect of fasting on eating is zero. I don't understand at all. This is an experiment. I will see what happens.

Day 2 – Monday, November 15, 2010: 206.8 There is very little that I have to do today, so I may experiment with fasting until 3 PM. I will for sure last until noon, but it might help me to just see what it is like to fast until 3 PM. This is what most people did twice per week for hundreds of years, only they fasted from both food and water. I'm still drinking black coffee and water.

2 PM: I got an offer! It is a contact position from the end of this month through the beginning of January. I am thrilled! I think what I should do with my diet is just stick with no breakfast four days per week for my fasting experiment on top of the no snacks and no sweets rules. I'll be busy!!!

Day 3 – Tuesday, November 16, 2010: 206.0. I ate lunch around 1 PM. Dinner was at 9 PM because I went to a study group from 5:30 PM to 7:30 PM and then had to pick up Boy Scout wreaths. What is nice about fasting is that I don't mind a later meal.

Day 1 – Wednesday, November 17, 2010: 204.6 Katie found a joke that she shared with me. It was an ad for a wine glass that can hold an entire bottle of wine: "perfect for people who are cutting back to one glass of wine."

8 PM: I tweaked my program yet again, giving up one of the strengthening exercises -- the one I absolutely hate -- and giving up pedometer walking. I fasted until noon today and had neither a large lunch nor a large dinner. Fasting, I think, helps me to desire less food. Given that Katie thought the joke about the large wine glass was funny, it's apparent that I need some way to control portion size. I think fasting is the ticket for me. I think it will make me desire less food. We'll see.

Day 2 – Thursday, November 18, 2010: 206.0 I have no idea why my weight is up so much when I thought I didn't eat that much yesterday. Maybe I ate more than I thought... Anyway, I woke up this morning thinking it was a regular morning so I could have breakfast and yet I didn't feel like having breakfast. I went ahead and started the oatmeal anyway. Is it possible that an variable schedule of eating creates a regular feeling of fullness? I don't know. I just find this morning's experience odd. My stomach is on the edge of growling right now, and yet I don't particularly feel like eating. That never ever used to happen. In fact, any sense of hunger used to throw me into a panic. I thought that the authors of Intuitive Eating described the feeling of panic well when explaining that a feeling of hunger was the warning that your diet was about to end in a binge. Now, by experiencing at least some hunger on a regular basis on Fast Mornings, I am no longer feeling panicked. In fact, last night, I had another late dinner (about 7:30) due to the van not starting and Tom having to come to the rescue, and the late dinner didn't bother me at all. It's so nice to not be on the edge of disaster. That's how I used to feel counting calories, waiting, waiting, waiting for the next time when I can have something to eat. It was constant torture... With this approach, I am still holding out hope that I will be thin but for sure I won't be in a constant panic.
Last edited by Kathleen on Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:42 am, edited 20 times in total.

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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:56 pm

Kathleen wrote: I'm not willing to have one meal at 6 PM because then I will experience ketosis,
and I'm not willing to have one meal at 3 PM because family meals are important.
FYI, it is almost impossible to get into ketosis in just 24 hours of fasting.
Ketosis doesn't normally occur until the glycogen stored in one's liver and
muscles is depleted, which takes approximately a 2-3 day period
without eating any food, or without any carbohydrate intake.
To speed up this process,
one would have engage in a long period of high-intensity exercise,
like running a marathon.
I think One's own Choice of Plan, is always the right one for them. Image
However, when creating the optimal design of your fasting plan,
you might want to consider...
reading the free Fast-5 e-book that I've previously recommended to you,
in order to learn helpful info on some specifics
of how the Body deals with Intermittent fasting periods.

My own experiments with Fast-5 have been limited to only a week or two at a time,
and it's not something I regularly do...(or particularly like)...
However, it might interest you to know that many people who choose to do Fast-5,
break their fasts around 3 p.m. by eating a very small meal...(the size of a small snack)
such as a cup of yogurt, OR 2 or 3 crackers with an oz of cheese,
OR 1 apple or 1 serving of some other fruit...etc.

Then around 6 p.m. they eat their normal meal, of whatever size they choose.
Since their 5 hr eating window began at 3 p.m. it would close at 8 p.m.
and within an every-day Fast-5 plan,
no eating would take place again until the following day at 3 p.m,
when they would duplicate their behavior.

I've noticed that many people seem to develop a Habit of doing this
from Monday - Friday
......which would be similiar to an "N" day Habit.....,
and then eat "normally" on Saturday and Sundays
.........which would be similiar to "S" days.
It strikes me that this actually could be an interesting No S modification - Image
a variation of the basic No S diet that incorporates Fasting into a Habit pattern,
which could be an additional way to reduce food-intake through timing and meal-frequency,
and might help one overcome a Binge/Fast pattern to create weight-loss.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by Kathleen » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:54 pm

Hi BrightAngel,
That's very interesting that ketosis doesn't start for 2 - 3 days. What I noticed when I tried fasting for 24 hours was bad breath, which is why I feel a bit leery of going an entire 24 hours. I like the idea of a small amount of food at 3 and then the main dinner at 6. Since I like oatmeal so much, I ended up having oatmeal to break today's fast. It is a matter of tweaking to customize an individual weight program. At this point, I am sick to death of research, so I'll try what I have now and see how it goes. You've influenced my thinking, and I appreciate the feedback. It's hard to face reality sometimes when you want to imagine what is not reality -- yes, if I just follow something for a time, I will become naturally thin. It's a nice thought, but it's not reality.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:46 am

Kathleen wrote:There is a modicum of willpower involved in sticking with the no snacks and no sweets rules.

Later: It's hard to restore the habit of no snacks and no sweets.

Later: There are rules that I need to follow in order to be thin.
I can follow rules that help me to be thin.
I thought I could eat as much as I want of whatever I want.
And I was wrong.

Now I'm having some trouble returning to no snacks and no sweets,
but I am convinced of its necessity.

Later:
Later: Then I had some more dinner and then was into the
Halloween candy.

I woke up this morning and thought that
I'm not sure I can fast and follow The No S Diet rules at the same time.

I'm just going to experiment and see what happens.
I feel much more comfortable with taking an approach of just fasting ....

Later: Three drumsticks later, I feel sick and somewhat disgusted.
I think what I need to do is focus on how my body feels when I eat certain things.
Image This Thought Patterns Sequence demonstrates the strength and deceptiveness
of our Desire to eat whatever we want to eat, whenever we want to.

We grasp the Truth,
but then when the Desire to eat outside one's rules arises,
that Truthful Concept eludes us.

It is so easy for us to deceive ourselves into breaking our rules..
....no matter what these rules are...
There will always be a good excuse for us to question the validity of rules;
to easy for us to change our minds about following those rules.
Our reward for this mental process, is the immediate self-permission to do what we want to do, Image
..which is: to immediately eat what we want to eat...outside the rules.

It is very difficult to summon up...and maintain...
the willpower that it takes to stick to ANY eating Rules that we we adopt,
(......including no snacks and no sweets outside of S days.....)
for a period long enough to for those Rules to become Habits.

I recently read the following saying::
"You can never made a Habit out of something you don't want to do."
I don't know if that is the Truth, or not,
but it certainly is worth thinking about.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by Kathleen » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:26 am

BrightAngel,
I can't seem to follow The No S Diet rules with fasting. I can do one or the other. What I'm going to try is just skipping breakfast three days per week. It's clear to me that The No S Diet rules have kept my weight down -- at least until the last week. What I recognized as a deficiency in my modified diet rules is I was never hungry. That's why I needed fasting. I didn't dare weigh myself this morning. I may just sit back and wait until the beginning of next month -- so long as I follow them.
Kathleen

PS. It's not that I don't want to follow The No S Diet rules. It's more that I want to avoid following them if possible. What have I learned? I need them.

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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:11 pm

Kathleen wrote: I recognize now the power of fasting, but
I also recognize the need for simple rules of no snacks and no sweets.
That's the mind-set you need. Work to sustain it. Image
Image Another thing you might think about:
It is easy to abuse the concept of Exception days
when one combines Exception Days together with a concept of perfect compliance.

A planned Exception day is one thing...like..a Birthday or Holiday, or other Special event,
but having a slip and deciding to take a binge day is a different matter.
Even calling a day with one small slip an Exception day changes the concept to a Negative one.
In actuality, that is NOT a genuine Exception day.
Exception days are intended as a POSITIVE event,
not a NEGATIVE event such as a cover-up for Failure times.

Trying to acheive Ultimate Perfection when following a rule can become counterproductive.
Sometimes it is far, far better to focus on compliance at the level of each individual moment.

It helps me to remember....
I am Accountable for my food-intake 100% of the time.
My body doesn't go by calender time. It functions continually.
Every MINUTE after any eating slip is a New Start, not every DAY after.
What works, is after an eating slip....START AGAIN IMMEDIATELY...that minute, that hour,
...even better...during the slip, even while in mid-bite...
...spit it out, throw it away, and continue on toward a successful day.
And even if you successfuly do this, don't try to cover up a slip by calling it an Exception Day.

Make it a HABIT not to wait till the following day to jump back on the wagon.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:46 am

BrightAngel,
It worked fairly well to have Exception Days and take an occasional Exception Day when something unexpected came up. I did fail yesterday and not mark it as an Exception Day, but the reason why is that I am working my way back to a habit of no snacks and no sweets. I do think there may be an appropriate condition that is either an Exception Event or a failure. At the kids Halloween party on Friday, someone offered me what I thought might be a breath mint but turned out to be chocolate. I then spent the rest of the night eating candy. Not a good idea...
Kathleen

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Post by Kathleen » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:31 pm

November 19, 2010: Cultivating the Virtue of Temperance

Aristotle, in his Ethics, argues that the practice of virtue is what leads to the establishment of habits of virtue which is what forms the character of a virtuous person. It was in listening over and over again to The Teaching Company lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics by Fr. Joseph Koterski of Fordham University that I recognized the paramount importance of establishing habits.

People often think dieting is a matter of willpower, but willpower when discussed in the context of dieting often means the superhuman effort to constantly restrict portions (e.g. Weight Watchers) or types of food (e.g. Atkins). Successfully following these types of diets means overcoming the body’s instinct to avoid starvation. There was just too much of a survival instinct in me because I managed to diet my way up to a high of 216 pounds on September 4, 2008.

I give credit to Reinhard Engels, who wrote the book The No S Diet with Ben Kallen, for inspiring me to follow a diet in which the timing of when to eat is central to the diet. My eating was completely out of control until I started following The No S Diet on September 8, 2008 at a starting weight of 215 pounds. For more than two years, I followed a diet in which I determined when to eat using The No S Diet approach of limiting most food consumption to mealtime. I then relied on internal signals to decide when to stop eating. The inspiration for this idea comes from Intuitive Eating by Elyse Resch and Evelyn Tribole.

What was the result? I did lose weight, moving to 196.6 pounds as a low in the summer of 2009. Then I stopped losing weight and started experimenting with different variations of managing when to start eating while still allowing myself what is described in Intuitive Eating as "unconditional permission to eat."

While experimenting, I continued with research on weight loss. Yale University has a Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity, and one of the center's podcasts is an interview of Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister on self control and addiction. He said that self control is like a muscle: if exercised, it grows stronger but it also needs to rest. I decided that I needed to keep the concept of a period of time of self-control combined with a period of time of "unconditional permission to eat" but realized that my success in weight loss needed to involve a change in the period of self-control.

I started experimenting with fasting. The book Fasting by Scot McKnight documents the religious practice of fasting. Catholics and Greek Orthodox used to fast twice per week, and this practice actually goes back to a Jewish practice. I decided to fast before communion on Sundays, which is another Catholic practice that ended in the early 1960s, as well as on Wednesdays and Fridays. It seems very strange indeed that fasting would be the path to moderation in eating. In the forward to Scot McKnight's book on fasting, Phyllis Tickle quotes St. Augustine as saying: "It is sometimes necessary to check the delight of the flesh in respect to licit pleasures in order to keep it from yielding to illicit joys."

In another book, The Four Cardinal Virtues, author Josef Pieper references St. Thomas Aquinas as arguing that "fasting is a commandment of the natural law". Pieper states in a strikingly disturbing way that it is "a natural, fundamental moral obligation to fast -- before and apart from ecclesiastical injunction" (Temperance section, chapter 5). What Pieper means by this sentence is that fasting is necessary for everyone.

I wanted a simple weight loss plan, and now I have a very simple weight loss plan. I am starting this plan on November 19, 2010 at a weight of 205.0 pounds: Fast for part of the day on Sundays, Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. On Sundays, I fast until noon or after church (usually about 11:30 AM). On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, I am starting with a fast until noon. Over time, I may extend the fast time on those three days to as late as 3 PM.

With periodic fasting, I learn how much I need to eat in order to feel satisfied. My fasts are short enough that do not experience side effects from ketosis, which is when the "brain is no longer getting enough glucose for fuel" (from Strong Women Eat Well by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson, p. 110). My fasts involve the elimination of all calories, including milk in my coffee. This idea came from Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes in which both the Atkins diet and fasting are described as creating an effect of mild hunger due to the severe restriction of carbohydrates. By fasting, I am starting to enjoy the feeling of mild hunger, and I no longer feel desperate if a meal is delayed for some reason because I know I can handle many hours without food.

That's it. That's my weight control approach.

The No S Diet:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, September 8, 2008: 215.0 (goal to lose one pound per month)
I got to a low of 196.6 in summer, 2009 and then experimented with changes so that I could lose additional weight.

Fasting Method for Weight Management:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Friday, November 19, 2010: 205.0 (Goal of 190 pounds: behind schedule by 15.6 pounds)


Day 1 – Friday, November 19, 2010: 205.0 I do not understand the uptick in weight, but I do appreciate a downtick in appetite. I woke up again not hungry. It's a Fast Morning, so that's great. Today I go in to fill out paperwork for my job -- providing proof of citizenship, bank account information for direct deposit, etc. I am so pleased by this because I am going to be very busy. Before, I worked part-time flexible hours and could barely keep up. Now I'm experimenting with a full-time position. It is only for 4 - 6 weeks so that I can appreciate what needs to change when I, a stay at home Mom, is not able to do everything for house maintenance, food preparation, etc. The diet will definitely need to be in the background. What little time I can devote to health needs to go to exercise. I start on November 29.

3 PM: I broke my fast at about 1. It was interesting that I did not want something heavy. I ended up with a leftover beef meal because I knew no one else would eat it, but I would have been happier with something lighter. Is it possible that fasting makes me want to eat foods that are good for me? Time will tell!

9:30 PM: After dinner, I had handfuls of Wheat Thins and four cups of ice cream. Why? Well, I decided to go back to fasting only as a method of controlling weight. Does this sound at all rational? No -- and yet, I think it may be the key, the one key, what my son has teased me as my imagined "magic diet". Why? Well, I know how I felt today at 1, when I wasn't that interested in heavy food but went ahead and ate it anyway. Now I know what I have been speculating, which is that fasting does affect how you eat afterwards. It must be that there is a certain amount of fasting which produces those results. I just haven't gotten to that amount of fasting.

I will.

I'm changing my diet once again with fasting as my only method of weight control.

Day 2 – Saturday, November 20, 2010: I had some soup and Wheat Thins and Breyer's Coffee Ice Cream for lunch today. Two of my favorite foods are Wheat Thins and Breyers' Coffee Ice Cream. Does this mean I have deep-sixed my diet? No. I didn't finish my soup. I had a small bowl of ice cream. I did have a fair amount of Wheat Thins. Still, the meal was not as much as I usually eat. Why? I am now tuned in to how it feels to eat to "just right." What I would have considered to be "hungry" or "not satisfied" now could be rated as "too much". Why the sudden change? This is from fasting. I pinpointed the exact moment -- yesterday at 1 PM.

Or -- I'm just fooling myself so that I could eat coffee ice cream. Time will tell.

Day 3 – Sunday, November 21, 2010: 205.4 I've never seen it so icy outside. I had our 11 year old put out the dog because I was afraid I'd fall, and the dog flipped on her back. The three younger children have all been out skating in boots on the driveway. The paper didn't come this morning. This is life -- the adventure, the joy of it! What a simple diet I have. It can work -- I just need to give it time and little to no attention. I simply refrain from eating at certain times. That's it. That's it. That's it!!!
I believe that my habit of fasting will result in

2 PM: Tom was not at all pleased that I suggested a trip to the JCC so he could exercise and then said I was too tired to go, leaving him to take the girls and me to pick up Tommy after a movie. What I won't admit is that I overate and am now feeling lousy. What is remarkable is I didn't eat that much. It must be that fasting keeps you from overeating, but I don't really understand why. In my mind, it might be like a pendulum swing in that you can only go so far. If you fast, you are limited in how much you can overeat. There's a pizza night out fundraiser for Boy Scouts tonight and I may go but I doubt I could eat even one slice of pizza. What I did today was have nothing until noon and then eat several handfuls of chocolate covered almonds, some milk, some cheese with Wheat Thins, and a burrito. My stomach is churning as I'm listing all that went into it.

9:30 PM: I skipped the pizza dinner but did go to turkey bingo and have popcorn and pop. Tonight, as I think about today, I realize that the fasting is like one side of a pendulum swing: it limits how far the swing can be made on the other side. Swinging several hours into fasting and then swinging back into overeating means a more normal eating experience. I remember reading that there was a book on saints and fasting to extreme, but I cannot remember the name of it and cannot find it on Amazon. I wish I could find out information on the subject, but I think that fasting definitely affects all eating, even eating outside of the times of fasting. My experience may be different from the experience of others, but it seems to me that there is some quite profound change in a person from fasting, or otherwise it would not have been so emphasized. Fasting, prayer, and almsgiving go together. Almost no one fasts in any meaningful way. It's just not on the radar screen of most people. Fasting has very different effects from constant portion control. Life is an adventure, and I am on to my next one... I had to give up the rules of the last diet to appreciate fasting.... Or, of course, I am fooling myself and this is yet another detour... I just don't think it is... Today's eating was more limited than eating I've had on other Sundays, and I think the reason why is that I fasted until at least noon on four days last week.

Day 4 – Monday, November 22, 2010: I am poured into my jeans, and now I need to go shopping for clothes for my job which starts next week. I do not want to be shopping on Black Friday. This morning, I woke up not with a stomach ache but with a sluggishness that could be attributed to the leaden feeling in my stomach. I used to associate this exact feeling with the relief that accompanied giving up on a starvation diet and finally getting enough to eat. Now I am associating this same feeling with low energy. I am glad that I am not eating this morning, since it is a Fast Day. I may try to just have oatmeal for lunch.

10 PM: My 10 year old didn't start her homework until 8:30 PM, and I'm unhappy that she is up so late to finish it. I ate too much tonight. How can I tell? My stomach hurts. I'm wondering, though, if my stomach aches because of the dramatic increase from this morning's fast. I think that my body cannot take these swings in food intake.

Day 5 – Tuesday, November 23, 2010: I'm not weighing myself until after I'm over the miserable cycle of fasting and overeating. Yesterday, I fasted in the morning, and I ate a lot in the afternoon. By night, I wasn't feeling too great. This morning, I felt worse. I think the situation is self-correcting: if I continue to fast, eventually I will stop overeating. This morning, I had to bring Katie into school late because she overslept and then I had to pick up milk and drop off Christmas swags we had donated to a church which allowed my son to sell wreaths as a fundraiser. I got back after having not eating this morning and immediately went for some chocolate covered almonds. I had a handful and now don't want anymore. My body is revolting against a stomach ache on top of another stomach ache. That's why I think this diet will work if I just give it some time.

My husband warned me that there are people who drink too much every night, wake up in the morning with a hangover, and vow not to repeat that performance but do. I don't know. Is alcoholism or drug addiction really like overeating? I have my doubts. You need food to live, and dieting (I think) triggers some sort of primal urge to avoid starvation. Speculation and experimentation needs to be set aside, however; this is my last day as a stay at home Mom. The kids are off school for the rest of the week, and I start work on Monday. I'll just follow this diet and see where I end up in January.

Day 6 – Wednesday, November 24, 2010: It's almost 7, Tom already left for work, and the kids aren't up yet. I got up without a stomach ache, but that may be because I didn't have a fast morning yesterday. Years ago, I went to a personal trainer who suggested a walking program with variable speeds of warm up and warm down at 3.5 mph and then walking speeds of 4.2 and 4.5 mph. He said that the stress of varying speed actually is better than a steady speed at the higher rate of 4.5 mph. I think that's an interesting idea that is applicable to having intermittent fasting. The focus today on weight management is a constant intake of food, sometimes with six mini-meals a day. There is never complete satisfaction with that approach. With this approach, there is complete satisfaction. What is going to limit my food consumption is either 1. Fasting, or 2. The desire to avoid a stomach ache. Eventually, I think I'll settle down into the amount of food that makes me feel best, which is definitely less than the amount I now eat given that I am fasting several mornings per week.

Tomorrow we will be celebrating Thanksgiving at my sister in law's house, and she is an excellent cook. Do I plan to eat a lot there? Yes and No. I'm going to be very aware of the downside of eating too much when I have fast mornings today and Friday. If I eat too much tomorrow, I will have unpleasant experiences that are significant enough to keep me from eating too much. It's not as if I am doubled over in pain when I eat too much now. It's more that I feel like I have lead in my stomach and I am lacking in energy. Also, the extra weight usually doesn't bother me because I am so used to it, but now the extra weight feels like extra weight, like I'm carrying a backpack.

Why would fasting create changes in how I feel? I think there is a contrast between how I feel fasting and how I feel eating like I normally do, and fasting is more pleasant. It just is. I feel lighter and more energetic. It is by no means painful.

I have no idea why it was necessary to give up on the no snacks and no sweets guidelines, but I think it was. I have to rely on fasting alone.

6:30 PM: My food preferences are changing dramatically. Maybe I'm coming down with a cold, but there was no way I was eating pizza tonight. Instead, I had cuties and cereal. I think having fasts may result in a change in food preferences, but it is too early to tell. I am allowing myself to have sweets and snacks except when fasting. Today, I had no sweets. I did have snacks. I am waiting until next month to weigh myself because I think this switch could produce a temporary boost in weight, and I don't want to be discouraged. Instead, I'm just trying to observe my eating preferences.

Day 7 – Thursday, November 25, 2010: It's Thanksgiving Day, and it will be interesting to see how much I eat today. The food will be good, but tomorrow's fast will be painful if I eat too much. Why did I not experience these problems when I was careening between binge and diet? I think it may be that the diet was not meant to end, whereas with this approach I know the feast will end at midnight and the fast will end at noon tomorrow. There is much more of a sense of control in scheduling binges rather than in trying to avoid them. I'm not advocating for over the top eating; instead, I think fasting will make the perception of over the top eating stay the same whereas what I actually eat is reduced. Since I'm not tracking what I eat, this is just my speculation and would only be proven true if the scale actually goes down. I can follow this experiment until mid-January when my work project will end. Until then, I'll be swamped because I'll be working 40 hours per week for the first time since 1999.

10:30 PM: I had several pieces of a fruit tart that was just superb. When we got home, I had two cups of potato salad. I am thinking of trying to fast until dinner. If I eat before bed, I should be able to last until dinner and not worry about breakfast or lunch. We'll see. I'll try it. Next Friday, I'll be working, so this is my chance at this experiment. Maybe once per week I could skip lunch as well as breakfast.
Last edited by Kathleen on Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:04 pm, edited 40 times in total.

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Post by TexArk » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:16 pm

Thanks, Kathleen for stopping by my daily thread. I have been following your ups and downs over the years because our histories are so similar--even our height and weight parallel one another. I hope you do well on your temperance plan. We each have to work it out for ourselves, but why oh why does it take so long!!!

I think one of the reasons intutive eating and NoS were appealing to me was that I didn't want my daughter to spend a lifetime of dieting and obsessing over food. I started dieting when I was 5'7" and weighing about 130. I started Weight Watchers in my 20s thinking I was so fat at 142 and that was the WW goal! I thought that if I could model for her normal eating she could be spared all this. Alas, I wasn't a very good model was I? And, of course, she has to work her way through her own journey. Sure enough, she has gradually added weight over the last 6 years and does need to lose. She hasn't tried a diet yet so she hasn't been through restrictive eating and the rebound that follows or she would probably weigh more. I have some advice for her, but I keep my lips sealed.
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:26 pm

TexArk,

I started dieting at age 17 because my father though I was fat at 5'6 1/2 and 132 pounds. My motivation was also my daughter, who turns 17 in March. When she was nine years old, she came in the door after school and rushed to the kitchen to get food, as if she hadn't eaten in days. That moment of seeing her rush to the kitchen is forever captured in my memory. She has been following my No S diet for two years but not perfectly, and she is borderline obese. I feel terrible about it. To be honest, though, I'd rather she be overweight than go through the diet cycle of binge and restrict that I have been through. I am working on exercise and have taken away her Mac until she is willing to exercise. It's hard to see history repeat itself in your child and know that you don't know what to do. I showed her an image of Kelly Brownell off the Internet -- the head of Yale University's Rudd Center for Policy Research and Obesity must weigh at least 350 pounds. I told her that conventional wisdom of calorie restriction has been disproved.

My daughter has to make her own choices in life, of course, as does your daughter. I think I am getting closer with an approach that combines fasting with no snacks and no sweets rules, but I don't think I'm quite there yet.

There was one point in my life when I decided I'd rather weigh 500 pounds than continue with the food restriction and inevitable bingeing. It was that terrible.

Kathleen

PS. As I was typing, my daughter came to me and said she would take the dog for a walk. It's snowing now and there is about 6 inches on the ground. As she took our nine pound Yorkie Poo outside, she said, "Pepper doesn't seem excited." Of course not! I'm glad she's out. I think that there needs to be a focus on health and not just weight, so I'm pushing for her to exercise. When she gets back, she'll ask for her Mac back, and she'll get it back. Even a little bit of exercise is better than none.

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Post by TexArk » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:14 pm

Kathleen wrote:
I told her that conventional wisdom of calorie restriction has been disproved.
I am not sure exactly what you mean here, except that he doesn't practice what he preaches!

I think that reducing overall calorie intake is the basis of every successful diet on earth. When you fast you are restricting; when you eat meat only it is supposedly self restricting because you are full; when you limit your eating to 3 plates you are restricting calories and if you overdo it on S days the calories have not been restricted. I think it is the severe restriction of calories that can lead to the diet and binge problems so many of us experience.
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:06 pm

TexArk,
Yes, the cause of successful diet is a reduction in calories, but how you get there is key. I think fasting combined with "unconditional permission to eat" will allow me to lose weight, but I am definitely at the start of the experiment stage!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:08 pm

Kathleen wrote:Yes, the cause of successful diet is a reduction in calories, but how you get there is key.
I think fasting combined with "unconditional permission to eat" will allow me to lose weight,
but I am definitely at the start of the experiment stage!
One could project the Probabilities of success or failure of this experiment Image
by comparing:
the potential calorie deficit of 3 breakfasts per week;
and the potential calorie exess of 1 Sunday afternoon/evening...

For Example:

Assuming one's Typical Breakfast was 500 calories,
Then 3 fast days x 500 = Deficit 1500.

Assuming one's Sunday's food totalled 1500 calories MORE than a typical "N" day = Excess 1500.

Therefore Plus 1500 calories of Sunday's excess,
Minus 1500 calories of missed meals due to fasting breakfast,
would equal ZERO....which is they would cancel each other out.

However, of course IF one overeats at other "N" day meals
to compensate for a skipped breakfast,
OR IF one eats MORE than an extra 1500 calories on Sundays,
OR If one eats MORE excess calories due to additional "Exception" days,
the above calculations would be too low --and thus Incorrect.

Assessing the Probablities wouldn't mean one would have to always count calories.
One would merely have to figure out the normal amount of calories one ingests while eating 3 meals a day,
Multiply that number by 7 days.
Then subtract the calories of 3 typical breakfasts,
and then add the calories of the Excess food of a typical Sunday afternoon- evening.

If you are interested in doing this, but do not want to figure out calories,
..........
You could.....write down everything that you eat for one week,
paying attention to (but not controlling) portion sizes
PM that detailed information to me,
Image and I will take the information you've provided to me,
and run the calorie numbers on it, and report them back to you.
In this way, you could gain information that would allow you to
make personal Adjustments that would more likely to provide you with weight-loss Success.

Image The other way, of course, is to follow the Plan perfectly for a long period of time,
and see whether you gain or lose weight.
Personally, I wouldn't want to spend much of my time on a Plan Image
Unless my Compliance with that Plan
gave me a High Probability of Success with my Ultimate weight-loss Goal.
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:29 pm

BrightAngel,

My best guess is that this approach will get me to about 180 or so but not much lower.

I think that the only way the diet will work at all is if the fasting (skipping breakfast three times per week) has an effect on eating the rest of the week.

By way of analogy, sometimes people (like our new governor, Mark Dayton) think that the benefit of a tax-the-rich approach can be calculated by assuming revenue stays the same. It tends not to remain the same, however. As one person writing into the local paper said, there a reason why you see so many Florida plates in Minnesota: rich Minnesotans moved to Florida to escape Minnesota state taxes!

That's what I think could happen with fasting: fasting has an impact on eating the rest of the week like higher state taxes has an impact on revenue, such as the decision of rich people to move to a different state. I think it could have an impact on eating the rest of the week because I figure out by way of experience that I feel better if I am not stuffed all the time. With The No S Diet, I have stuffed myself three times per day instead of continuously throughout the day. If I fast, even for a morning, I am not going to be in a constant state of stuffed. Will I start to prefer eating to less than stuffed?

That is the question. That is why this is an experiment. My hypothesis is that I will start to enjoy feeling a littel bit less than stuffed.

I appreciate your offer about having me monitor my food for a week, but I have an aversive reaction to that: I tend to eat more when I write things down. Besides, I don't really trust the numbers for calorie counting. For example, how would you get the calories for a half coffee malt from Snuffy's Malt Shop? That's where I was yesterday for a special treat with our two younger daughters and a dear friend who will be in Texas from next month until September.

http://www.snuffysmaltshop.com/menu.htm

When I was calorie counting, I just ate foods that had a specific number of calories. I detest Lean Cuisine now.

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:19 am

Kathleen wrote:I think that the only way the diet will work at all is if the fasting
(skipping breakfast three times per week) has an effect on eating the rest of the week.

I don't really trust the numbers for calorie counting.
For example, how would you get the calories for a half coffee malt from Snuffy's Malt Shop?
That's where I was yesterday for a special treat
Kathleen,
Considering how the Body works,
unless one puts Conscious Effort into eating the same or less at other meals,
Fasting is more likely to cause one to eat MORE the rest of the week,
rather than eating LESS the rest of the week.

Perfection doesn't exist anywhere, and calorie counting is no exception.
Re the Calories in speciality foods such as a coffee malt from Snuffy's Malt Shop.
One could take the average calories from several different malts from various shops.
For Example:
Dairy Queen- 640; Whataburger- 1450: Culver- 1131; Carl Jrs - 780;
Red Robin - 712; Sonic - 780......Average would be around 900 calories,
but most common value is around 750 calories.

Or the calories could be based upon
similiar foods from similiar sources who do list their Nutritional Values.
For Example:
1 Coffee Malt from the Potbelly Sandwich Works contains 747 calories,
therefore one could assume that the calories in 1 Coffee Malt from Stuffy's is somewhere around that amount.

Either way, combining the above-information, and assuming the Stuffy's malt is not SUPER-LARGE,
and therefore much larger than the above-listed malts
the most likely conclusion is that the Malt was around 750 calories. Image
--- 1/2 of that amount would be 375 calories.
Image BTW, re Popcorn Calories:
There are approx 78 calories in 1 cup of buttered popcorn, oil popped
1 medium size mixing bowl holds about 10 cups 78 x 10 = 780 calories.

One can compare those numbers to the numbers in the following article:
Large popcorn : 1160 calories; Medium popcorn 720 calories; Small popcorn 670 calories.

According to laboratory analysis conducted by the Center for Science and Public Interest (CSPI),
the concessions from Regal, the country's biggest movie chain,
have 1,160 calories and three days worth - 60 grams - of fat.
Regal said that the medium popcorn had 720 calories
and the large had 960,
but CSPI's tests found those numbers to be understated.
A small popcorn at Regal had 670 calories -
the same as a Pizza Hut Personal Pepperoni Pan Pizza.
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Post by Teemuh » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:39 am

Very interesting discussion. Kathleen, you'll have to let us know how the fasting works for you. I tend to agree with Bright Angel that this might be setting you up for little or no weight loss, and perhaps weight gain. I'm also thinking this method is also another guise of binge/deprivation which the No S tries to get people away from. Anyway, I guess we're all an experiment of one, so all we can do is try and see what happens.

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Post by Kathleen » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:14 pm

Teemuh,
I agree that it probably would lead to little weight loss, so I'm going to change it. I think of portion control as the kiss of death. My gut feel is that the fasting needs to be stricter so I need to emulate the Greek Orthodox omen who fast until 3 PM on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. It's very helpful to get comments. It makes me think.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:28 pm

Kathleen wrote:I appreciate your offer about having me monitor my food for a week,
but I have an aversive reaction to that:
I tend to eat more when I write things down.
Kathleen
PROBABLY, it SEEMS like you eat more when you write things down,
because the process makes you very much more AWARE of how much you're eating.
People don't like SEEING the Unvarnished Truth, and this is the true reason
the majority of people quit before finishing an agreed upon period of recording their food.

However, almost every study shows that...in fact...the reverse is True.
For the few people who can actually make themselves follow through,
......despite their difficult confrontation with the Truth about their eating....
it is DIFFICULT to get an ACCURATE SAMPLE from such a week,
because a brief, temporary period of writing things down
ACTUALLY frequently results in people REDUCING the amount of their normal food intake
during that temporary period, simply because it becomes so very CONSCIOUS.
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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:36 pm

Kathleen wrote:.... so I'm going to change it.
My gut feel is that the fasting needs to be stricter
so I need to emulate the Greek Orthodox women
who fast until 3 PM on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Kathleen.....
Your post about a fasting schedule change was made early Sunday morning...
when your current plan requires fasting on Sunday morning.

Is there Hidden Motivatation here?
Think about:
Does your changed plan still require you to fast right now, today?
or does it provide you with an excuse NOT to fast THIS morning?

Scheduling changes that provide an immediate eating payoff are always suspect.
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:44 pm

BrightAngel,
Yes, I am fasting right now. We won't go to church until 10:30 AM, so I won't eat until 11:30 AM. The dog, however, is not too happy about my being on the computer. I have on my walking shoes, so she is on the alert. I don't wear a pedometer on Sundays and don't try to get to a specific number of steps, but she still needs a walk. Thanks for keeping me honest, as Anderson Cooper would say! You definitely did catch me once in changing my diet because I wanted to eat now!
Kathleen

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Post by TexArk » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:43 pm

Am I understanding your plan correctly?

You are trying to fast long enough to have an effect on your appetite and your hunger and are hypothesizing that you will eat fewer calories because there is a cause/effect relationship between fasting and hunger and the periods of fasting will lead to less calories eaten.

You are also assuming that on your unconditional permission to eat days you will not be consuming more calories than you have subtracted from the fasting periods. Correct?

You are at peace with trial and error but are averse to actually counting calories to see what you are actually consuming and saving because you believe it has a negative effect on your choices?

Am I to understand that you will try this for a year?

I hope this works for you, and I am glad to see that you are still open to discussing and thinking this through. A year seems like a long time to commit to an experiment unless you are getting results.

We are each an experiment of one as we have said here many times. This very well may work for you if the fasting does control total amount of calories consumed. As for me, I was shocked to see how much I began to lose when I started keeping track...and I do not set a calorie budget for each day...I just record. And as we also say around here, " Your mileage may vary." Many times I have thought, "This is it! I have found the answer! I can live like this forever." So I hesitate to get evangelistic about my approach. But...so far my plan is working for me. I hope the same for you.
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Post by Kathleen » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:11 pm

TexArk,

You are right in what you have said except that I decided not to make this a commitment of one year. Instead, I am starting with fasting until noon and will allow myself to gradually increase the time of fasting until 3 PM on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

How you describe tracking what you eat is how I feel about tracking number of steps. I really enjoy it and am motivated by it! The difference between step counting and calorie counting is that, in step counting, you want to go over a certain number and in calorie counting you want to stay under a certain number.

I have tried tracking what I eat. I even created nice spreadsheets for inputting the information which included, at various times, hunger level, where I ate, whether I followed certain eating behaviors such as putting a fork down at the end of each bite, etc. For some, writing down what you eat can be a means to moderation. For me, it was a constant reminder that I wasn't eating as much as I wanted to eat.

My view has become that what people used to do for religious reasons may be helpful for me, regardless of any spiritual effect on me. I want to lose weight. I just don't want to be obsessed like I used to be. Even though I weigh very close to what I weighed when I finally gave up on portion control, I'm glad I gave up on it. I can do without scrapping every last piece of rice out of a Lean Cuisine meal or waking up in the middle of the night feeling like I was in a concentration camp or gorging on nine ice cream sandwiches and only knowing that is how many I ate because my husband had calculated that was how many I ate. It was horrible. It was a nightmare. I lived that nightmare, in various degrees, from 1976 to 2007.

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:33 pm

Kathleen,
I can identify with your cravings. Image
I really Hope that you will watch those 5 interesting YouTube links I recently posted in my Thread.
Right now I'm investigating and experimenting with those issues for myself,
And I'm curious as to whether anything in them specifically clicks with you.
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Post by TexArk » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:24 am

Kathleen wrote:

I have tried tracking what I eat. I even created nice spreadsheets for inputting the information which included, at various times, hunger level, where I ate, whether I followed certain eating behaviors such as putting a fork down at the end of each bite, etc. For some, writing down what you eat can be a means to moderation. For me, it was a constant reminder that I wasn't eating as much as I wanted to eat.

I just don't want to be obsessed like I used to be.... I lived that nightmare, in various degrees, from 1976 to 2007.

Kathleen
I respect your statements and I have done some of the same behavior you mentioned. And yes I had to get free from that food obsession as it leads to disordered eating. I think your introspection is a good thing!

I also have great respect for BrightAngel and your positive, helpful attitude as well as your tenacity. The continual struggle to maintain as your body seems to require fewer calories to do so can be really discouraging and many would give up. I hope through your research you find more answers for maintaining weight loss for the formerly obese and I have also viewed with interest the videos you linked.
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:36 am

BrightAngel,

Very interesting... I have gone down the path of trying to figure out what foods are good for me and to develop habits of eating them regularly. I have switched from skim milk to 2% milk because I have found indications that there is a benefit from the saturated fat in milk and the milk is more filling. I'm also trying to develop a habit of having salad with tomatoes and homemade salad dressing, and I do try to have red wine.

The presentation of the evidence regarding association rather than correlation is very compelling. Still, I'm not a believer in the Atkins Diet. One of the parents intending to take boys in my son's Scout troop next year lost a lot of weight last year and has gained some back this year. I think you tend to crave foods you deny. That's why I come back to the idea of fasting and a time of "unconditional permission to eat."

Thank you for suggesting the videos to me. I do not believe in the "Fat Lazy Slob" theory. I also don't believe in the glycemic index theory, either. Oatmeal has a glycemic index of 49, and watermelon has a glycemic index of 103. I think it is bunk that watermelon is not good for you.

As for why we eat more, I think that the desire for more food may have to do with how often we eat and with the restriction of saturated fat. It's not that we eat too much sugar, but it may be that we eat too little saturated fat.

I also agree that it isn't about character. It's about chemistry. What is being triggered by the binge is something that is similar to the survival mechanism that I once experienced when my brother (in play) held me under water when I was about 10.

Finally, I share this guy's skepticism about conventional wisdom. That's part of the reason why I set out to do my own research. Where I really differ from conventional wisdom is I think "portion control" is the core of the problem. I set out in January, 2004 to figure out how to lose weight without portion control. Back then, I weighed a mere 190 pounds. I'm awfully persistent -- or stupid! -- but this presentation encourages me to keep experimenting.

As a final note, my two younger girls admitted to hiding my cherished copy of Ancel Key's book The Bountiful Bean. Why? The meals from that cooking book were very unsatisfying. They were low fat but not at all appealing to two little girls!

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:47 pm

Kathleen wrote:I think you tend to crave foods you deny.

It's not that we eat too much sugar,
but it may be that we eat too little saturated fat.
Kathleen, Image
I'm so pleased that you followed and watched those 5 links.
I found it to be an interesting and entertaining presentation,
and I'm glad this is true of you, as well.

I posted a response to a couple of your comments in my Daily Thread,
as an Effort not to make another long post on yours.
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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:18 am

Kathleen wrote: 9:30 PM: After dinner, I had handfuls of Wheat Thins and four cups of ice cream.
Why?
Well, I decided to go back to fasting only as a method of controlling weight.

I'm changing my diet once again with fasting as my only method of weight control.
Calories add up in your body whether you count them or not. Image

Handfuls of wheat thins - 1 single wheat thin is 9 calories,
so only 11 equal about 100 calories.
Even one handful is probably three times that amount.
So you could have easily had 300 calories per handful. Three handfuls = 900 calories.

4 cups of ice-cream - 1/2 cup of regular ice-cream is 250 calories.
so 4 cups would equal about 2000 calories.

Just your after dinner snack could easily have been between 3,000-4000 calories.
Plus your comments indicate that you ate dinner and lunch,
which unless you ate VERY lightly, probably brought your day's total up over 5000 calories.

I'd personally call the wheat thins and ice cream a Binge,
and skipping a few meals a week...i.e. fasting...will never offset that kind of excess.

I feel I need to clearly tell you
....that despite your carefully stated rationalizations and justifications....
what you're doing is painfully obvious to even the most casual observer.

You can continue to provide yourself with excuses to change your Plan
in order to give yourself permission to eat,
whenever you want the immediate gratification of eating sweets and/or snacks that are off that Plan.
However, this is not the type of behavior that will bring you weight-loss.
You aren't alone in this type of Self-Deception. Image
Each of us must fight the ability we have to fool ourselves into believing
that it's okay to change the rules...immediately,
when actually we are merely breaking them.
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Post by Kathleen » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:13 pm

BrightAngel,

I know... It seems very bizarre to me to look at the situation objectively and still be happy about it. I got a glimpse of what fasting does to appetite, and that is what I want! It wasn't that I chose to eat less at 1 PM yesterday. It's that I didn't want to eat much and what I wanted to eat was light. I still went ahead and had a heavy dish of beef and noodles because it was leftovers in the refrigerator.

Today I am comparing how I felt at 1 yesterday with how I felt at 9:30 last night or even right now, this morning, still with so much food in me. I feel better eating less. That is the lesson of fasting.

The No S Diet was like training wheels on a bike: it got me to regulate food intake by time.

If, indeed, this is just a lesson I haven't learned yet, then your post will help me to consider what you have said. The Catholic Church has a line: "Satan is the Father of Lies." As I have aged, I have come to appreciate the power of that statement because a lot of sin is justified by self-deception. Could it be that I am still deceiving myself? Yes. I could still be a glutton but just don't want to give it up yet. There's a well-known line from St. Augustine: "Oh God, save me from lust, but not yet." Am I saying, "I just want to experiment with fasting because it's after dinner and Tom got Breyer's Coffee Ice Cream"? Yes, it is possible that I'm on another detour because I wanted to justify eating Breyer's Coffee Ice Cream.

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Post by oolala53 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:08 pm

I haven't read all of your nine pages of posts, but I'm jumping in anyway because I wanted to comment on your observation that after fasting and getting to the point where you were actually hungry before eating, you felt that less food satisfied you. I also participate on a weight loss site on a team devoted to ending binge eating. It's frightening to me how many members there talk about overeating because they got so hungry. Those two do not necessarily go together. I think people convince themselves that they must need more food because they missed out on a meal or three. However, some research I read about recently said if fasting is followed by normal (say about 400-500 calories for dinner for an average person--less if you are a smaller person), the effects are quite healthy. It's the gorging afterwards that is a problem. I myself find that nine times out of ten, if I am very hungry for a meal, it doesn't take long for me to get full. I had actually discovered that way before No S, but it wasn't until this year on No S that I could stick with the behavior as much as I have.

Good luck to you with implementing your discoveries and in finding any new insight you need.

BTW, gorging is something even thin people can do after deprivation. An old skinny boyfriend and I went on a hiking trip once on which the food was quite limited. I was used to such deviations in my eating, but he wasn't. When we returned, he went crazy and ended up sitting up in bed in the middle of the night and throwing up from the overeating he had done!
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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:41 pm

Kathleen wrote: Sunday, November 21, 2010: 3 p.m.
I overate and am now feeling lousy.
What is remarkable is I didn't eat that much.
It must be that fasting keeps you from overeating
What I did today was have nothing until noon and then
eat several handfuls of chocolate covered almonds,
some milk,
some cheese with Wheat Thins,
and a burrito
.
In perspective:

One handful is about 1/2 cup.
1/2 cup of chocolate covered nuts is about 400 calories.
several handfuls = 3 or more.
1 and 1/2 cups chocolate covered nuts is 1200 calories.

some milk???
One 8 oz glass of whole milk = 150 calories...or more than an 8 oz glass?

some cheese???
1 and 1/2 oz of cheese (size of your thumb) = 170 calories...or more than 1 1/2 oz?

some Wheat Thins??? 33 wheat things - 1/2 cup = 300 calories...or more than 1/2 cup?

a burrito = probably somewhere between 230 and 470 calories

El Montery frozen bean and beef - 230 calories
or Amy's frozen bean and beef - 350 calories
or Taco Bell bean burrito - 370 calories
or Taco Bell beef burrito supreme - 470 calories

SO....Approximate Totals:
chocolate covered nuts =1200 calories
milk = 150 calories
cheese = 170 calories
wheat thins = 300 calories
burrito = 350 calories

I find it remarkable that you think that during this lunch-time period,
that you "didn't eat that much",
and you are surprised that you feel so full.

In perspective....
That is a LOT of rather filling, calorie dense food.
approximate TOTAL ---- 2170 calories.
This is probably about the amount of calories, or more,
that...at your size and weight...you burn in one complete day.
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:13 am

oolala53,
It's a puzzle to me why I felt hungry all the time but was eating all the time. I think there is a contrast effect in fasting and then allowing yourself to eat what you want. You then can compare what it feels like to be hungry (after several hours of not eating) to what it feels like to not be hungry (what I used to think as being hungry.) I don't know if I have explained it well, but by way of analogy I think it might be like a teen learning to drive (a terrifying experience for a mother!) My daughter is extremely conscientious and is following all the rules, but she has made many serious mistakes. After a time, a person simply learns to drive and account for all the stupid things other drivers and you do and realize that it usually doesn't result in a car accident if you run over a curb or if another driver runs into your lane. Just so, I think setting up a fasting schedule may result in binge behavior initially. That certainly was the case with me. However, over time, you start to realize that you feel better when you are fasting than when you are gorging. Since people naturally gravitate towards pleasure and away from pain, all it takes (I think) to eat normally over time is to set up a schedule of fasting and (over time) you start to eat normally because you find that gorging is unpleasant. I see that my gorging has decreased. I will never ever again eat 4,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters in a 24 hour period, for example. Even yesterday, I ate well more than what a normal person would eat, but I did not have pizza last night for dinner because I was done. Now, today, I am fasting and enjoying the feeling of my stomach emptying. I sure remember my stomach emptying when I was dieting. I constantly felt like I was on the edge of a cliff because I was asking myself this question: Can I hang on long enough to stay with this diet even though the end of three hours of not eating is a very unsatisfying meal of Lean Cuisine? Now I know the end time: for today, it is noon. AT noon, I can eat what I want all afternoon and evening and won't restrict again until Wednesday morning when I fast again. Will I gorge this afternoon? I really doubt it. Why would I? It's more pleasant to eat less.

BrightAngel,
For a Sunday, I sure didn't eat that much. I know you've read my posts for some time -- what I describe from today's meal is a lot different from eating four Haagen Dazs bars in two hours or 4,000 calories of caramel macademian clusters in a day. Despite the fact that my new diet doesn't have anything special about Sunday, Sunday is special. Sunday is the day for treats. You've restricted your eating for years, and you are thin. I am obese. For me, three handfuls of chocolate covered almonds, a burrito, and milk is not all that much. There is no question in my mind that there is nothing wrong with how calories are consumed by my body. I'm fat because I eat too much. That's the truth, pure and simple, and I accept that truth. What I am trying to figure out is why I eat so much and how I can manipulate my eating habits so that I don't want to eat that much. I may be on a wild goose chase and find out, in the end, that the only way for me to be thin is to restrict portions. Or, I may find that the wisdom of the Catholic Church for hundreds of years is correct: as St. Augustine put it, that fasting is a way to control the natural desire to eat more than is appropriate.

Honestly, I can appreciate why you are skeptical. I am as well. To me, the test of whether or not this will work is that I get to a lower weight and easily maintain that lower weight. Years ago, I went to college in a community with a lot of Polish Americans, and I was a junior when John Paull II was elected pope. I was told that the Poles used to have a saying: "That will happen when there's a Polish Pope." Well, it may be that I will never be thin, but I will keep trying to find a way to be thin without restricting portion size. I gave The No S Diet (without the restriction to one plate) a good two years before I accepted that it wouldn't get me to a normal weight. It got me below 200 pounds, but that was it.

Kathleen

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Post by oolala53 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:19 am

Have you seen any of Brad Pilon's work, including some very interesting videos on youtube? Unfortunately, his book EatStopEat on intermittent fasting is a pretty expensive ebook, but he has lots of free information on the web. He is a big proponent of the 24-hour fast, and has a lot of body chemistry reasons to back it up. I still haven't made it a practice; I'm saving it as the ace up my sleeve until I give trying to make S days sane more time.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

Kathleen
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Post by Kathleen » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:22 pm

oolala53,
Yes, BrightAngel suggested it to me. I haven't purchased it because we've had bills to pay: medical, dental, and plumbing -- and I haven't worked for 1 1/2 years. I may purchase it, though, and have seen some videos online, including a very funny one demonstrating that lots of exercise cannot make up for lots of eating! I've been reading on fasting from Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica, but now I'm turning my attention to my very short (4-6 week) contract assignment and will put on hold any changes to the diet. I'm just fasting Sunday until after church and Monday, Wednesday and Friday until noon. It seems like it is pathetically too little -- and it goes against conventional wisdom of always having breakfast. Will it work? Given how miserable I feel right now, I sure hope so... Combining fasting in the morning with lots of food after that makes for a miserable morning the next day.
Kathleen

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Post by oolala53 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:05 pm

In terms of calorie deficit, skipping breakfast doesn't add up to that much, but as you've said, it may be more important for the experience to lead to satisfaction with less food, or rather that "as much as you want" will be less food. I think it can, but likely only if you start letting your body do the talking rather than your eyes. You may be used to seeing a certain amount of food that you then want to eat. Ever experimented with eating with a blindfold on and paying attention only to the smell, flavor, and changing texture of the food as you chew each bite thoroughly? I know you said no more changes to food for now, and that is wise, but it's nice to know there are options to try later.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

Kathleen
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Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by Kathleen » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:58 pm

oolala53,
That's an interesting idea! What I'm finding today is that I simply don't want to eat any more chocolate covered almonds. My stomach already hurts from overeating yesterday, so why pack in anything more? This approach sure wouldn't work if all I was giving up was breakfast. It can only work if the fasting makes normal eating the only comfortable way to eat, just like a pendulum swing to one side goes only so far on the other side. My son, by the way, is doing science experiments with pendulum swings, which is why I thought of them as an analogy. I will think about how much my eyes contribute to my weight problem. It's rather sad that I have to get to the point of stomach aches to have my eyes overruled by the pain of a stomach ache.
Kathleen

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:56 pm

November 26, 2010: Cultivating the Virtue of Temperance

Aristotle, in his Ethics, argues that the practice of virtue is what leads to the establishment of habits of virtue which is what forms the character of a virtuous person. It was in listening over and over again to The Teaching Company lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics by Fr. Joseph Koterski of Fordham University that I recognized the paramount importance of establishing habits.

People often think dieting is a matter of willpower, but willpower when discussed in the context of dieting often means the superhuman effort to constantly restrict portions (e.g. Weight Watchers) or types of food (e.g. Atkins). Successfully following these types of diets means overcoming the body’s instinct to avoid starvation. There was just too much of a survival instinct in me because I managed to diet my way up to a high of 216 pounds on September 4, 2008.

I give credit to Reinhard Engels, who wrote the book The No S Diet with Ben Kallen, for inspiring me to follow a diet in which the timing of when to eat is central to the diet. My eating was completely out of control until I started following The No S Diet on September 8, 2008 at a starting weight of 215 pounds. For more than two years, I followed a diet in which I determined when to eat using The No S Diet approach of limiting most food consumption to mealtime. I then relied on internal signals to decide when to stop eating. The inspiration for this idea comes from Intuitive Eating by Elyse Resch and Evelyn Tribole.

What was the result? I did lose weight, moving to 196.6 pounds as a low in the summer of 2009. Then I stopped losing weight and started experimenting with different variations of managing when to start eating while still allowing myself what is described in Intuitive Eating as "unconditional permission to eat."

While experimenting, I continued with research on weight loss. Yale University has a Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity, and one of the center's podcasts is an interview of Florida State University Professor Roy Baumeister on self control and addiction. He said that self control is like a muscle: if exercised, it grows stronger but it also needs to rest. I decided that I needed to keep the concept of a period of time of self-control combined with a period of time of "unconditional permission to eat" but realized that my success in weight loss needed to involve a change in the period of self-control.

I started experimenting with fasting. The book Fasting by Scot McKnight documents the religious practice of fasting. Catholics and Greek Orthodox used to fast twice per week, and this practice actually goes back to a Jewish practice. I decided to fast before communion on Sundays, which is another Catholic practice that ended in the early 1960s, as well as on Wednesdays and Fridays. It seems very strange indeed that fasting would be the path to moderation in eating. In the forward to Scot McKnight's book on fasting, Phyllis Tickle quotes St. Augustine as saying: "It is sometimes necessary to check the delight of the flesh in respect to licit pleasures in order to keep it from yielding to illicit joys." In another book, The Four Cardinal Virtues, author Josef Pieper references St. Thomas Aquinas as arguing that "fasting is a commandment of the natural law". Pieper states in a strikingly disturbing way that it is "a natural, fundamental moral obligation to fast -- before and apart from ecclesiastical injunction" (Temperance section, chapter 5). What Pieper means by this sentence is that fasting is necessary for everyone.

Starting November 26, 2010 at 209.0 pounds, I am following this diet:

1. Fast from all food, when possible, on Sunday, Wednesday and Friday mornings: I try to fast from midnight until mid-afternoon on Wednesdays and Fridays and until after church (about 11:30 AM) or noon on Sundays. I am starting this program with fasting until noon on Wednesdays and Fridays and will gradually increase the length of the diet until I am fasting as long as until 3 PM. With periodic fasting, I learn how much I need to eat in order to feel satisfied. Because the fasts only last at most 20 - 21 hours, I do not experience side effects from ketosis, which is when the "brain is no longer getting enough glucose for fuel" (from Strong Women Eat Well by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson, p. 110). My fast involves the elimination of all calories, including milk in my coffee. This idea came from Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes in which both the Atkins diet and fasting are described as creating an effect of mild hunger due to the severe restriction of carbohydrates. By fasting, I am starting to enjoy the feeling of mild hunger, and I no longer feel desperate if a meal is delayed for some reason because I know I can handle many hours without food. I also know that, when I do eat, I will eat to complete satisfaction.

2. Practice “unconditional permission to eat†on all Sundays: The concept of “unconditional permission to eat†is from the book Intuitive Eating. The idea behind intuitive eating is that restrictive eating leads to “diet backlash†and weight gain. I allow myself "unconditional permission to eat" every Sunday after I break my fast at about 11:30 AM. This part of the diet appeals to the glutton in me. All week, I can look forward to Sunday afternoon and evening, to a short time when -- without guilt -- I can eat as much as I want of whatever I want. This is a dieter’s dream, and I have it reliably every single week.

3. Limit snacks and sweets to Sundays and a rolling average of two Exception Days per month: This idea is a modification of The No S Diet. When I was following conventional diets, I felt hungry all the time. Now I rarely think about food between meals. I “tune out†hunger signals outside of mealtime. At each meal, I can eat as much as I want, but I don’t have sweets and everything must be in front of me before I take one bite. Outside of mealtime, except when I am fasting, I can have liquids like milk or juice. The elimination of sweets on all but six days per month seems to have reduced the amount of sweets I can tolerate eating when I do have sweets.

I do allow myself two Exception Days per month to be used at my discretion for any reason at all. I use Exception Days for holidays like Christmas or family traditions like Santa's Breakfast or occasions that cannot in any way be categorized as special, like a particularly appealing taste test at the grocery store. On Exception Days, I have “unconditional permission to eatâ€. I do not, however, need to take an Exception Day if I have a meal during a time when I should be fasting. The Exception Days allow me the flexibility to follow with “perfect compliance†the rule of no snacks or sweets except on Sundays. I don’t remember where I read about the idea of “perfect complianceâ€, but my conviction that “perfect compliance†is essential was reinforced by listening to Koterski’s lectures on Aristotle’s Ethics. Koterski explains that Aristotle distinguishes between habits that require thought and effort and habits which are so ingrained that they are followed automatically. I wanted a diet that was easy to follow, so I decided that I needed to follow my diet perfectly. Following my diet is like brushing my teeth: I do it automatically and without much thought or effort. I also came to think of this line from Introduction to the Devout Life by Francis de la Salle as the motto for my diet: “By perfect practice of a single virtue a person can reach the heights in all virtue.†This diet has an effect on me both physically and spiritually.

4. For breakfasts on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, try to have oatmeal: Steel cut oatmeal is filling and inexpensive. I bought a small Cuisinart crock pot which can be set to 1 ½ hours for cooking oatmeal. It switches to warm after the cooking time ends. This makes cooking oatmeal easy for me, and I have a satisfying start to the day!

5. Wear a pedometer every day except on Sundays and record steps per day: My inspiration for this habit was from the book Move a Little, Lose a Lot by Dr. James Levine of the Mayo Clinic. He argued that it is important to build exercise into your daily routine rather than to attempt to go to a gym regularly. I try to walk 10,000 steps per day. There is effort involved in making this goal, but my life also seems calmer. I walk around while waiting for children and park in the first available spot when I am going to stores. The dog also loves her daily walks!

6. Do strengthening exercises: I am following the basic program of six exercises in the book Strong Women Stay Slim by Dr. Miriam E. Nelson. I have also added one of the optional exercises, the pelvic tilt. I am starting with a one-pound weight, and I've modified the four exercises with weights in that I use one weight at a time and stand on one leg at a time (stand on left leg when right arm has weight and stand on right leg when left arm has weight). This was an idea suggested to me by a personal trainer years ago when I brought him this book.

Dr. Nelson made the argument that “the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn. This important change comes partly from a revved-up metabolism and partly from increased physical activity – an automatic consequence of greater strength†(p. 35). When I added strengthening exercises in August, 2010, I immediately appreciated the importance of the exercises, especially since it was after only one week of strengthening exercises that I walked on rocks to cross the creek at the headwaters of the Mississippi River. I didn’t have the balance or agility of my 9 year old daughter who was scampering back and forth across the rocks. I didn’t have the balance of my husband who could walk from rock to rock. Instead, I used both hands and feet to cross the rocks in what my husband teased me was a “spider crawlâ€. I told him that I’ll be scampering over those rocks next year!


The No S Diet:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, September 8, 2008: 215.0 (goal to lose one pound per month)
I got to a low of 196.6 in summer, 2009 and then experimented with changes so that I could lose additional weight.

Temperance Approach:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Friday, November 26, 2010: 209.0 (Goal of 189 pounds: behind schedule by 20.0 pounds)




Weight and thoughts from current month:
Day 1 - Friday, November 26, 2010: 209.0 As my kids would say, the diet I've tried off and on now for two months was an epic fail. I knew it with certainty this morning when I woke up without a stomach ache after having 1/4 (at least) of a fruit tart that was delicious. I was fooling myself that this would work. I'm returning now to the diet that I first developed back in August. Instead of increasing the amount of fasting, I'm adding back in exercise and the no snacks and no sweets rules. My weight has gone up on the scale four pounds in one week, and now I'm worried if I can squeeze into the black pants I was going to wear for my first day of work on Monday.

The fact is that I'm not going to have time to worry about dieting once I start working, and I had better settle on something that seems like it will work long-term. I no longer have time for experiments. This diet requires more effort than I wanted to expend, but now that I see the result of less effort locked in on the scale at 209 -- how embarassing! -- I'm willing to put forth the effort needed.

Some lessons are learned best when they are learned the hard way. I've told that to my kids many times. Now I'm telling that to myself right now. It will be OK. I don't need to feel devastated. I just needed to learn my lesson so I could commit cheerfully to the amount of effort required by my diet. How sad that I look back with a tinge of nostalgia at weighing below 200 at the beginning of October. How sad that I was feeling good and enjoying more energy and tossed it aside because I wanted an easier way.

I may get a new pedometer today. The GoSmart is bulky, and I think a pedometer does motivate me to walk more, so it is important.

5 PM: The rest of the family went to the new Harry Potter movie, but Ellie was too young so I took her to Megamind. It had a good line in it about how "destiny is the path you choose to take." I agree completely. I choose this path. It is not my destiny. Anyway, I did not find a better pedometer, so I'm sticking with the GoSmart. Poor Pepper got no walk but she did get her toenails clipped. Starting Monday, I won't have much time to think, so I'm glad I went back to the diet that seems to hold some promise, although it also requires effort.

7 PM: Anne had a piece of pumpkin pie and told me she gave up on the diet. I can hardly blame her. It makes me sad, however, and further clarifies for me that I know in my heart what I must do -- it is what I would like my daughter to do.

7:45 PM: Am I going to give up like my daughter did? Yes, I did. I had two cups of cottage cheese and two granola bars. Now what? Well, I restart right now, still on Day 1. I need to make a commitment. I just made a commitment to the wrong thing. I can commit to this diet until Christmas of next year. During the course of that year, I should track an average of 10,000 steps per day on all days except Sunday. I can do this. It has to be my highest priority. I'll feel better, and I'll model the life I wish I had had modeled for me.

Day 2 – Saturday, November 27, 2010: 207.6 Last night, I was hungry after dinner even though I had eaten plenty at dinner. That's why I ended up eating after dinner. I wonder if appetite returns based on how often you eat. I've read that people who fast for several days often don't feel hungry after a couple of days. Is it food that triggers appetite instead of satisfying it? Actually, Gary Taubes said it was carbohydrates that triggers appetite. The problem with eliminating carbs is you need them so you end up craving them. I think a schedule of meals, with fasts thrown in there that are not consistent, may really help with appetite.

2:24 PM: Exception Day already. I realized I needed to make a commitment for life. My prior two diets were incorporated in this one. I can do this for the rest of my life. I need to stop playing around and get serious.

Day 3 – Sunday, November 28, 2010: 207.6 Yesterday, we volunteered to bring food into the crises nursery, which is a drop in center for kids up to age 6 when the family is having a crises. I had wanted to do this since we toured the center in May, but we couldn't afford it until I got a job, so we did it yesterday. It was both a gratifying and a jarring experience. There was such a sense of gratitude and appreciation among the staff. I also have seared into my memory seeing my daughter talk with one of the kids. We were only there two hours, but by last night I was thinking a lot about it with regard to my overeating.

Overeating really is about greed. Dieting is about limiting greed, but it is still about greed. Part of Catholic tradition is a prayer before meals, which we sometimes say but usually don't. It's a prayer of thanks.

I'm not sure where to go with this, but I think a diet structure may be totally counterproductive because all you are trying to do is maximize what you can eat within the rules. Maybe a better approach is to focus on health and feel grateful for what you do eat.

Who knows? Tomorrow I start work. I'm not going to have time to think much about anything.

2 PM: I'm sticking with this diet. It's true that I try to maximize food intake when following it, but I'm overeating right now. At least there are some limitations on my eating with this diet.

Day 4 – Monday, November 29, 2010: 207.4 My weight went down from yesterday. I was sick of overeating: a day of "unconditional permission to eat" carries no meaning unless it is distinguished from those around it. The advantage of having rules for eating, I think, is that you gradually adjust to not eating outside those rules. I won't have much time to consider anything new, so I think I'll stick with this. It could be very difficult to walk 10,000 steps per day. I'll track the steps and see how it goes. I may need to make up for less walking in the winter by walking more in the summer, averaging out to 10,000 steps per day over the course of the year. We'll see.

Day 5 – Tuesday, November 30, 2010: 209.2 Yesterday was another Exception Day. I didn't eat dinner until 8 and then I didn't stop eating. This No S Diet, with the result of 196.6, sure looks better when you are staring at 209.2 on the scale. I'm now down to zero Exception Days, but it's the last day of the month and I get two tomorrow. I would say I'm at a fork in the road. Now I'm working full time until mid-January, and the person I'm reporting to is just one of the nicest people I've ever met. The work is a little overwhelming, but I think I can do a good just, but the manager is sooooo... nice. What a difference that makes...

6:30 AM: Oh, am I stubborn, but I think I've finally answered the question, "Is it possible to lose weight without portion control?" The answer is "No". Sometime reality isn't what you want it to be, but it's best to look at it square in the eye and accept it. I am now thinking that fasting is something I want to do someday but not now. I still need those Exception Days, which are the sleep equivalent of sleeping in on the weekends to make up for lost sleep during the week. Now I need to figure out portion control during the week. I still hate the idea of one plateful, but I need something. It may be that I could just settle on some standards like oatmeal for breakfast and estimate calories otherwise, still keeping to the no snacks and no sweets rules. If I do that, some of my favorite aspects of this diet will go out the window, like uncounted calories in milk. That' OK. I sure don't want to be this weight for the rest of my life. It's been 6 1/2 years since I started on this journaling venture, and it's time to appreciate that the answer is "No".
Last edited by Kathleen on Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:36 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Post by oolala53 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:42 pm

Sorry you're feeling down, but I think it may be good. I know that fear that I would continue to escalate my binge eating is what made me commit to No S for a year, though since April, I haven't had many 21-day streaks. However, I know this is it. So far I would say that it has been worth every minute of effort I have put into it, though there is definitely not as much of that as there has been in the past. Part of that is because I have followed some diets and have found wonderful meals that I enjoy that are also moderate or even low in calories, and that is the way I eat most N days. I also learned to enjoy being hungry for my meals. Some days it can be a struggle to wait for dinner, and I will sometimes eat early, about 5 p.m. But some days, it actually feels wonderful to do errands a such after work that take me to 7 or later to eat. I can't predict it, but I take advantage when I can.

I, too, am getting ready to buckle up and start to exert more effort on exercise and on weekends because I am realizing that that is what it is going to take for me. However, I am very sure that I will find that it is going to become routine, just as most N days are now, and that I will again be happy to get over the hump of first exertion. I really don't feel that I have to try hard at all on portion control during the week. I literally don't want more than I typically have at meals. I KNOW you are going to find peace with this because you keep looking! And I think your sources are interesting.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

Kathleen
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Location: Minnesota

Post by Kathleen » Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:44 pm

oolala53,
I'm trying to look at it this way: I gained conviction and only lost time. I'm not interested in waffling off the no snacks and no sweets rules anymore.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:47 pm

Kathleen wrote: Actually, Gary Taubes said it was carbohydrates that triggers appetite.
The problem with eliminating carbs is you need them so you end up craving them.
Image I believe your recent statement about Taubes,
appetite and carb cravings is inaccurate,
and I have responded to that on my own Daily Check-in Thread.
:)
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by BrightAngel » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:41 pm

Kathleen wrote: Oh, am I stubborn, but I think I've finally answered the question,
"Is it possible to lose weight without portion control?"
The answer is "No".


Sometimes reality isn't what you want it to be,
but it's best to look at it square in the eye and accept it.

I sure don't want to be this weight for the rest of my life.
It's been 6 1/2 years since I started on this journaling venture,
and it's time to appreciate that the answer is "No".
ImageKathleen, At Last !!! Image
Image

NOW you can get a REAL Start.
Here are my unsolicited suggestions. Image
A MAXIMUM OF ONE "NEW START" PER MONTH.
Did you notice how many Exception Days you ALLOWED yourself in November
due to all of your "new starts"?
If not, go back and read your month of November.

Many No S people will be astonished that I'm giving THIS advice,
but...here goes:
  • Start the month of December by doing Vanilla No S...
    ALL of Vanilla No S, just like it is set forth by Reinhard...without ANY personal modifications.
In case you have forgotten what Vanilla No S is:
  • 3 meals of day of ANYTHING you want to eat as long as it fits on 1 plate.
    No Snacks, No Sweets, No Seconds, except SOMETIMES on "S" days.
    "S" days are Saturday, Sunday, and Special days...like Christmas,
    New Year's Eve etc, which are special exceptions to the normal "N" day rules.

    Note in Vanilla No S:--these "exceptions" are "Special" days, not "Excuse" days....
    ...and are supposed to be used on Special days, not just whenever you fail to follow the plan perfectly.
After a COMPLETE MONTH of working the best you can toward following Reinhard's Vanilla No S,
which will be on January 1, 2012,
you can choose to make personal modifications to those rules...
BUT NOT BEFORE...
even if EVERY day in December is a Failure.

Within Vanilla No S, there is room for personal interpetation.
If you want to Fast - or skip a meal - Fine.
If you want to eat Oatmeal every day for breakfast - Fine.
If you want to track the food you eat - Fine.
If you want to count steps or strength train or whatever - Fine.
BUT.....Just make those things be personal daily choices as they come up...NOT ongoing RULES.

I know your new job is keeping you busy,
and you are concerned with the time this is taking you.
So...Give it up.
Just follow Reinhard's BASIC DIET...for 1 month.
It will save you an immense amount of time,
and it will probably keep you from gaining more weight during the Christmas Holidays.

I think it would be Very Helpful if you re-read Reinhard's little paperback.
If you don't have it any more, I will buy one for you,
and have it shipped directly to you from Amazon.

Reinhard is pro-modification, but says:
"Be careful. The downside of self-made systems is that
you feel fewer compuntions about modifying them at the spur of the moment." page 168
"Doing a watered-down "some S" version of the diet
probably isn't going to be very effective.
The thing about a moderate system like the No S Diet
is that you actually have to follow it systematically.
Because you're cutting off only a bit around the edges,
there's not the same leeway of excess than an extreme system will give you.
The No. S. Diet has exceptions built right in,
so you don't want to add in too many more.
The plan isn't that hard."page 170-171
Image I would be SO VERY INTERESTED to see what would happen
if you make a committment to do this for just the rest of this year.
...which is only ONE month.
I believe it will Halt your weight-gain,
and it might cause a weight-loss,
while giving you a one month period of peace from the struggle.
Sometimes it is better to make a Realistic commitment Image
....like "one month",
than a Grandiose committment
...like a "lifetime".
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

kccc
Posts: 3957
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:12 am

Post by kccc » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:16 pm

BrightAngel wrote:Many No S people will be astonished that I'm giving THIS advice,
but...here goes:
  • Start the month of December by doing Vanilla No S...
    ALL of Vanilla No S, just like it is set forth by Reinhard...without ANY personal modifications.

BA, this made me smile. :)

But I agree that it's very good advice.

Kathleen, best wishes.

oolala53
Posts: 10059
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:46 am
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Post by oolala53 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:17 am

Holy mackerel, when you've got BrightAngel telling you to do Vanilla No S, go for it, girl!

I would say the only modification might be to allow yourself to stop eating even when you haven't finished the plate of food if you know that you're getting too full. Also, as BA said, skipping meals is okay, or at least delaying them, if you find that you're not that hungry from the last meal.

As I've said before, doing Vanilla No S can support the habit of discipline. If you don't have that, trying to follow stricter regimes is going to be worse in the long run, as several people have found before returning. But when you have that, you may be able to get more restrictive, as there are people here who eat low-carb, vegetarian, etc.

Good luck!
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

Kathleen
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by Kathleen » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:10 am

December, 2010: Cultivating the Virtue of Temperance

November 30, 2010: OK, BrightAngel, VANILLA NO S. Today was my last Exception Day -- yet again. Good habits are difficult to follow. Bad habits take no effort whatsoever. I don't plan to count the number of Exception Days in November. I did find the book, I did take it with me while I waited for Ellie to have a trumpet lesson, and thanks for the offer to send me a copy.

KCCC,
I'm ready to be less clever. It's amazing how quickly the uncontrolled binge returned.

oolala53,
Thanks for the encouragement! One thing I have come to realize, as I look around at a messy house, is "mess attracts mess." The same can be said of exceptions: "Exceptions attract exceptions." It's time to consider that maybe, just maybe, failures should be recognized, faced, and labeled as failures rather than justified as exceptions.




The No S Diet: modified after about one week:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, September 8, 2008: 215.0 (goal to lose one pound per month)


The No S Diet: restarted after numerous modifications:
(Month 1) Day 1 - Monday, December 6, 2010: 208.8 (Goal of 188 pounds: behind schedule by 20.8 pounds)
I made modifications right from the start of following The No S Diet on 9/8/08. I lasted only about two weeks following the one plate rule because I think that "portion control" is a major cause of the obesity epidemic. By summer of 2009, I had gotten down to a low of 196.6 pounds. After that, I started experimenting with the S Day concept. Instead of two S Days per week, I cut down to one day per week and then to one afternoon and evening per week and then to one indulgence on Sunday. By indulgence, I mean that I can eat whatever I want and as much as I want in one sitting. During the rest of the week, I have no snacks and no sweets but I can have as much as I want at every meal (no "portion control"). If I eat any sweets or have any snacks other than that one indulgence on Sunday, then I do nothing different: I simply recognize that I am outside the guidelines of this diet, such as when my husband offered me a taste of a new type of cheese prior to a dinner. I also fast on Sunday morning until after church as a way to teach myself to tolerate hunger which can occur in the normal course of events if a meal is delayed or there is a meal which is unsatisfying.

Weight and Exercise:
Day 1 – Wednesday, December 1, 2010: 207.8
Day 2 – Thursday, December 2, 2010: 207.4
FAIL: Dessert of one scoop of ice cream with chocolate sauce at Tom's work's holiday dinner.
Day 3 – Friday, December 3, 2010: 205.8
Day 4 – Saturday, December 4, 2010: 205.0
Day 5 – Sunday, December 5, 2010: 206.8

Day 1 – Monday, December 6, 2010: 208.8
Day 2 – Tuesday, December 7, 2010: 206.6
Day 3 – Wednesday, December 8, 2010: 206.6
Day 4 – Thursday, December 9, 2010: 205.8; 6,950 steps
Day 5 – Friday, December 10, 2010: 205.6; 4,878 steps
Day 6 – Saturday, December 11, 2010: 205.0; 4,175 steps
Day 7 – Sunday, December 12, 2010: 204.4
Day 8 – Monday, December 13, 2010: 204.8; 5,270 steps
Day 9 – Tuesday, December 14, 2010: 203.8; forgot pedometer
Day 10 – Wednesday, December 15, 2010: 204.2; 7,209 steps
Day 11 – Thursday, December 16, 2010: 203.4; 7,250 steps
Day 12 – Friday, December 17, 2010: 203.8; 5,200 steps
Day 13 – Saturday, December 18, 2010: 203.4; 6,852 steps
Day 14 – Sunday, December 19, 2010: 202.4
Day 15 – Monday, December 20, 2010: 204.0; 4,855 steps
Day 16 – Tuesday, December 21, 2010: 203.2; 4,945
Day 17 – Wednesday, December 22, 2010: 204.4; 4,186
Day 18 – Thursday, December 23, 2010: 204.2

Day 1 – Friday, December 24, 2010: 204.2



Thoughts for the month:
Day 1 – Wednesday, December 1, 2010: 207.8 It can be wise to face up to your foolishness. It took me some time to actually find the book because it was stored away. I only got through the first chapter last night, but I was reading it as if I had read it for the first time. Yes, excess is the problem, and simplicity is the answer. I got tangled up in a plan. I was being way too clever. I actually only followed Vanilla No S for one week -- four days were failures and two were S Days. After one week, I came up with the idea of Exception Days rather than S Days.

Day 2 – Thursday, December 2, 2010: Tonight is the holiday dinner for Tom's work. He's worked there three years, and this is the first time that we've been invited. I don't know what to expect. Now: should I consider an exception? Or -- should I simply tell myself that it's a fail if I break the rules? Should I have considered today an S Day?

6:15 AM: I think I came up with a solution to the dilemma, and that solution is this: I can only designate S Days at the beginning of the month. I harp on my children about the importance of planning, so it's time to practice what I preach. Tonight is either a success or a fail: it's not going to be a last-minute S Day.

9:30 PM: I went ahead and had the dessert tonight at the holiday dinner. It seemed appropriate. It was not earth-shattering. In fact, I'm glad I have my first failure out of the way. It was the only time today that I ate outside No S rules.

Day 3 – Friday, December 3, 2010: I was so afraid of failing in this diet that I set up the Exception Day approach. Last night was a very reasonable and very contained fail: all I did was have a small bowl of ice cream. I did not have any other exceptions, and it was very appropriate for me not to refuse dessert. I feel good about the decision and about how I handled failure. I preach all the time to my kids about the importance of resiliency, and here I was not practicing what I preach. Maybe I should listen to myself as a mother...

7 PM: My husband is all over me about things falling apart at home, and he wasn't pleased when he saw what I wrote just now. I just had an exhausting drive home because it was a big snow, and I had little to no time to think about food. I had some trail mix for lunch. For dinner, I had Anne make a meal. She missed on how much to make for dinner, so I ended up making a separate stir fry meal. I didn't really enjoy dinner because I was just too tired. Now I just want to sleep.... Life is intruding into all these thoughts about dieting: I simply don't have time to worry about it. This weekend is the annual Santa's Breakfast at our church. Now only one child believes in Santa, and the other three and Tom are volunteering. I can think back and remember how I would wait up until midnight to have Haagen Dazs bars. Now, going to two S Days from one per week, I am not particularly concerned about getting into me as much food as possible. That's good.


Day 4 – Saturday, December 4, 2010: 206.8 I ate a lot yesterday, but I noted a lack of pleasure -- or at a least a minimum of pleasure. This reminds me of how I felt when I tried -- and actually eventually succeeded in getting a job offer -- in Denver. I used to love to backpack, especially in mountains, and so I moved to Denver after losing my job in the recession of 1983. I had plenty of money from my severance pay and also unemployment, so I up and moved to Denver. At first it seemed glorious. I was so happy to look up and see the mountains. Over time, however, I did not like it there at all. So much of the population is not from Denver that there is a sense of rootlessness. Also, living in a city and looking up at mountains looses its appeal over time. After all, I wasn't living in the mountains. I was just looking at them. That experience reminds me of my overeating yesterday. Sure, there was some pleasure in looking at the mountains, just like there was some pleasure in eating an entire huge chocolate bar yesterday. Still, there was more bad than good. Just like the rootlessness of the population outweighed the pleasure of looking at mountains, the pleasure of overeating was outweighed by a sense of disgust at how I would -- and did == feel in overeating. This disgust has nothing to do with the number on the scale today. It has to do with how my body feels.

I've been accustomed to only one S Day per week, and now I am following vanilla No S which has two. I don't think I could stomach another day like yesterday.

9 AM: Katie loaded her plate with chocolate covered pretzels and toast with peanut butter, and I had to look at that and think that was gluttony. It was an S Day, she countered. Yes, it was. I look to my Catholic background and think that there is something natural in human nature about sinning, and there it was right before me: gluttony.

Am I going to change this diet? Yes, and no. I think I'll allow myself "conditional permission to eat" on Sunday before Mass and then record whatever I eat that is outside No S rules. That will help me to "not be an idiot" which is within No S guidelines. Thus far this morning, despite good intentions, I have been an idiot: chocolate chip ice cream, chocolate covered pretzels, what else? I don't even know. I've just been shoveling food in my mouth.

I detest recording food, so I will have to balance the desire to eat outside S Day rules with the desire to eat what I want. I think this will help me.

2 PM: Ugh. We're going to a nice Christmas concert this afternoon, and I'm so stuffed I'm afraid I won't feel well or enjoy the concert. It's interesting that I had no trouble at all confining my FAIL to one dessert at Tom's holiday dinner. Maybe I could just have one S-event on each S-day. For some reason, S Day eating becomes a constant graze throughout the day, and I forgot how much I detest writing down what I eat. It would never work to do that. I had a chocolate covered sprinkle doughnut after church today. Do I want to record that? No, but S-events? That might be a thought. I know, I know... no straying from vanilla S. I have to think about it. At least I'll be away from food for the rest of the day. I wish I could come up with an appropriate analogy to why my S Day eating is so out of control, but I cannot. It almost seems like air going out of a balloon in that there just seems to be no control when the S Day permission. With S events, there is still freedom but it is confined to a smaller period of time.

8:30 PM: Even with not eating anything but a taco for dinner and several glasses of milk because of all the junk I ate this afternoon, I still have a stomach ache. BrightAngel sent me a message suggesting that the idea of "unconditional permission to eat" might not be helpful for me. Quite understated! I'm going to try one S event on Saturdays and one S event on Sundays and one S event on Special Days but I'll also allow myself breath mints if I need them. My husband's sour kraut and sausage meal seems to have really affected my breath...

Day 5 – Sunday, December 5, 2010: 208.8 I'm ready to lose some weight and not continue to have learning experiences. I think that I should try a single S-event each S-day. That's what happened at the holiday dinner, and it was nice and comfortable. Yesterday was just non-stop eating except when I was at church until 2 PM, which I stopped. Still, lots of damage can be done in a few hours. What could I envision as an indulgence? What I'm thinking is a cup of coffee in the morning with some chocolate fudge. Now that would be memorable. I may think in terms of indulgences rather than days of "unconditional permission to eat."

Day 7 – Tuesday, December 7, 2010: 206.6 One benefit of this diet is that, over the past two years, I have learned to confine my bingeing to mealtime. The drawback has been a warped sense of portion size, since I refused to look at any sort of portion control as part of my diet. Sometimes my warped sense of portion size becomes very evident, as it did last night at the swim team's annual meeting to start the season. I had a veggie sub from Subway with chips, and when I got home I considered eating more. I didn't, however. I stuck to no snacks and recognized that the meal wasn't inadequate so much as I had become accustomed to much larger portions. Do I try to cut down those portion sizes now? No... I think not. I think I could benefit more from focusing on the idea of indulgences rather than days of "unconditional permission to eat." Thinking back to how I started No S, there is no way I could have started off with S events rather than S Days. For months, I was grumpy on Thursday nights because it was still 36 hours until I could eat whatever I wanted. No... This move to S events rather than S days is a step in the right direction but probably not sufficient for me to become thin. I actually think the biggest step for me occurred two years ago when I learned to not snack. "Controlled binges" are a lot better than "out of control bingeing." I learned to control some aspect of my eating. All those years of trying at dieting and failing almost turned my reaction to dieting into a reaction that is spontaneous and unavoidable, like the spontaneous action of putting out your hands to catch a fall.

7 PM: I spent $5 on chocolate fudge to be eaten Sunday morning with coffee. I can hold off on a lot of eating in order to enjoy that indulgence without guilt! The glutton in me lives: I just need to channel the gluttony!

Day 8 – Wednesday, December 8, 2010: 206.6 Ugh! I can feel extra fat in my stomach. I need to figure out a way to get some exercise.

6:20 AM: I just had my bath and had some time to think. I think that one planned indulgence per week is enough and in fact two would dilute the value of the one. I'm looking forward to having chocolate fudge with coffee on Sunday morning. If there was an indulgence on Saturday, I'd have to plan that as well! There is, however, the problem of social events. Mostly, I have found that you can avoid food by having liquids. There is, however, the problem that that is not always the case nor do you always want it to be the case. Also, if I follow this system of planning for the month, I'm paying more attention to this diet than I would like. I wonder if I could just write down what I would call indulgences -- those times when I violate N Day eating rules. This may be yet another tangent, but I think I'll try it. For example, this Saturday morning, I'm going to a breakfast with Santa. If it was an S Day, would I want to look around and figure out what sweets I can consume? Yes. I've trained myself to eat whatever I allow myself to eat. A better course of action, I think, might be to have one time of "unconditional permission to eat" per week, which is when I plan my indulgence. All other times are indulgences as well, but there is a reason for them but that reason does not need to be planned ahead. I think I'd be willing to record these indulgences to keep myself honest. One other trip-up for me has been using breath mints, so I'll exempt myself from them as indulgences. I don't have them that often, but I did on Sunday. Time to get the kids up...

10 PM: Tonight when I picked up Katie and Ellie from After School Care, I was telling Katie how much I enjoy my job, and she asked me why. I told her I get to chit-chat and play on the computer -- sounds like what I do when I'm not working! Anyway, I did get some exercise tonight, washing the floors that haven't been washed since I started working. I do like the idea of a planned indulgence on Sundays and then just recorded indulgences at other times. This somewhat dispenses with the N Day/S Day dichotomy and could careen right into a ditch fairly quickly, but -- heck -- I've been in the ditch so many times that I don't mind. What I have realized is that my attitude is that I need to take full advantage of S Days when I have them, and so I just turn off any sort of restraint and eat non stop the whole day if I'm around food. Clearly, this is not an attitude to have if I plan to lose weight. On the other hand, I've adjusted fairly well to an N Day mentality that I eat only at mealtimes and don't have sweets. Could I last just with every day as an N Day and occasional, justified treats? Yes, I think so. That means no more taste tests at grocery stores, which has been a slippery slope to binges so many times that I cannot count. It also means justifying all eating outside N Day rules unless it is my one Sunday indulgence. Could that work? Yes, I think it could. So much for being committed to vanilla S for a month... I do think I'll pull out the pedometer as well, since I have to wear a security badge all day. I might as well add on a pedometer!

Day 9 – Thursday, December 9, 2010: 205.8 I should probably try to do some strengthening exercises in the morning before getting the kids up rather than journaling. I'm going to try to wear a pedometer at work. One thing I really miss because of working is sunlight. I've even taken some papers down to the lunchroom area and sat in the sum. It's certainly an adjustment to go back to full-time work, but I still consider myself a "stay at home Mom in disguise." This assignment is only for four to six weeks, but I could see getting extended. That's what happened with my last position. In any event, I don't want to work in the summer. I want the kids to be able to sleep in and to just enjoy their summer vacations. That's what I enjoyed when I was a kid -- hours and hours at the pool, camping, just biking around... There isn't as much freedom for kids as there was 40 years ago, but I can still let them sleep in! It will be a time for me to see how this plan is working out as well. I think it's a good step to go from S days to events, but I also think some sort of fasting is necessary so that I learn to tolerate hunger because there are times when meals will be delayed and I need to know I can handle it.

8 PM: I think I've had my very last S Day. It turns my stomach just to think of them. When I first started No S, I was literally counting the hours until Friday midnight and sometimes actually waiting up until midnight. Now what feels comfortable is the N Day, not the S Day. I think an S event, which I choose to call an indulgence, would be a positive experience for me. In contrast, I've had two years of negative experiences with S Days. I've had enough.

Day 10 – Friday, December 10, 2010: 205.6 I was pleasantly surprised by the number of steps I took yesterday and also how easy it was to wear a pedometer under my badge which I have to wear all the time anyway. I had two meetings in a building connected to the building where I work, which added steps to my day.

Weight-wise, I'm almost exactly where I was last Friday. I'm not interested in another two binge S Days.

Day 11 – Saturday, December 11, 2010: 205.0 I'm not sure how much snow we got last night, but we aren't driving across town to a breakfast. Our newspaper weatherman said "only the brave and the foolish will be out on the highways." My friend and I aren't taking our daughters to the breakfast, and right now our daughter is shoveling a path out for our dog, who is shorter than the inches of snowfall. I am right now the weight I was last Saturday, and part of the reason why I don't want S Days is that I don't want to be on the hamster wheel of lose weight during the week and regain it on the weekend. Plus, it's just gotten way less enjoyable to eat that much. I think that I will look back at the end of my life and see that my weight was the biggest challenge of my life. It's funny, but I never considered that a possibility until Tom told me it was so, and even then I scoffed at his saying that. It's true, though. It is. I have had the attitude for many years that my weight problem was just a strange detour that would go away on its own. Now I know better. Now I know I need entrenched habits that promote moderate eating, and I'm still working on defining those habits.


Day 12 – Sunday, December 12, 2010: 204.4 I don't want any more S Days. N Days feel safe. They no longer feel restrictive. An N Day with one indulgence is joyous! And today is a special Sunday in the church calendar. Gaudate Sunday. It means Joyous Sunday. How fitting that this is my first weekend without my labeling a day an S Day. I think I'll fast until after church. That can be my fasting time.

6 PM: I think it is possible to lose weight without any portion control. The necessary lever is restriction of when to eat rather than what to eat or how much to eat. It seems absurd at face value because a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. The reason why I think it works is that my body is adjusting to my stomach not being stuffed at every minute. Today, I did not eat at all until 1:30 PM, because I went to Costco after church and didn't eat before church. It was Doughnut Sunday, but I had coffee rather than treats. I wanted to save my one Sunday indulgence for after church. After Costco, I took Katie and Ellie shopping to wear something appropriate for the Christmas concert which started at 4:30. We got back to the house just before 4, we were only home long enough for them to change, and then I took them to the concert. We just got home. I no longer need to look forward to a weekend binge. In fact, it feels much better to just have the three meal routine with a little indulgence on Sunday.

7:10 PM: I laid out my Sunday indulgence for the whole family to see a package of chocolate fudge, a single-server Haagen Dazs coffee ice cream, a cupcake, chocolate-almond biscotti, and Baily's. It looked excessive to the point of being revolting, but I dug in. I had 1/2 the coffee ice cream, 1/2 the cupcake, about three pieces of fudge, the biscotti and the Baily's Irish Creme. How do I feel now? Pleasantly stuffed. I don't want anymore. The memory of this indulgence will carry me through all this week when I will refrain from sweets if possible.

I think I'm going to aim for 5,000 steps per day for the pedometer. It's harder to walk when it's winter in Minnesota, and you are working full-time. The dog is not benefiting from my being at work! She's lucky if I take her up the street and back before I leave for work!

9:45 PM: It was really easy to get through today without having it be a binge day. It helped, of course, that I was so busy. I also think I've just plain gotten used to the three meal per day structure so that even one sit-down indulgence seems like a lot.

When I restarted the diet at the beginning of the month, I put on a ruby ring. That ring has been a reminder to me that this diet would be hard. Tonight I took off the ruby ring and put on a sapphire ring. The blue in sapphire seems very calm and peaceful. Putting that ring indicates to me that this diet is easy. I have finally gotten to the point that eating is easy.

It seems so abrupt because last month was so hard and so disappointing, but I have gotten to this day in many, many steps:
Step 1: In an on again-off again approach, I gave up on dieting with any sort of portion control.
Step 2: On December 15, 2007, I started following the Intuitive Eating approach of "unconditional permission to eat." This was the end of a portion control approach to dieting.
Step 3: On September 8, 2008, I started The No S Diet with its emphasis on a structure of three meals per day with weekends of a more relaxed approach to eating which I interpreted to mean "unconditional permission to eat."
Step 4: In May, 2009, I went down to one day per week of "unconditional permission to eat."
Step 5: On September 12, 2010, I started fasting on Sunday mornings.
Step 6: On December 12, 2010, I started fasting on Sunday mornings and having one indulgence after that.

Following this approach, I look forward to losing weight quickly and easily. It almost seems like a dream. Have I really come to the end of my weight loss struggle? Once when I was backpacking, we were hiking through some brush and then came through the woods to see this incredible view across Glacier National Park. I'll never forget the surprise and the awe of that moment.

That moment reminds me of now. I don't know for sure if the struggle is over, but I think it could be. I think I can now find safe harbor in a few easy eating rules that I can follow 100% of the time and that will protect me from a very unhealthy eating culture.

Thank God. I feel very grateful for getting to this moment because my eating habits have been an embarrassment and my weight has been shameful to me. I remember back in college going out with a friend and two guys at the next table made some comment about "buffalo thighs." I was reduced to the size of my thighs.

What I endured I hope my children will not endure. Food obsession, I think, is the natural result of constant portion control. Obesity, I think, is the natural result of living in this culture. I hope to model for my kids an approach to eating that protects them from obesity. If they see me lose weight on this diet, that can be an inspiration for them to have a healthy weight.

My 16 year old is overweight. It saddens me more than anything else in my life. I am in no position to scold her or advise her. The hour is late, but I hope she goes off to college kissing goodbye a mother who has learned to manage her weight. I've been open with my family about what I am doing, and they are understandably skeptical. What will convince them is weight loss, not my confidence in my theory of weight management.

Time will tell. I need to be patient.

Day 13 – Monday, December 13, 2010: 204.8 "One swallow does not a summer make." This saying was in Aristotle's Ethics, and it's true. I did get through one weekend with just one indulgence, but can I continue this for a lifetime? I think I can -- now. Back in September, 2008, it took four days of failure before I finally had one success in simply not snacking for one day. I looked forward to the weekend to gorge like a person who is underwater looks to the surface of the lake. I needed those S Days for months and months and months when I was gorging. What was I doing all those months? I think I was convincing my body that food was available in the quantity I wanted it. It was very early into this diet that I gave up on all portion control and simply limited my food intake to what was before me when I sat down to eat. That was the same approach I used with my indulgence yesterday.

I feel like bragging, but it is a little premature, so I'll just celebrate the success of one weekend without a huge increase in weight.

Day 14 – Tuesday, December 14, 2010: 203.8 I ate as much as I wanted at every meal yesterday, and still my weight is down. The N Day/S Day dichotomy taught me to eat normally on N Days and eat like a diet had failed on S Days. Now I no longer need S Days. Week after week, month after month, I would lose weight during the week and gain it all back on the weekend. Now what? Will my weight continue dropping?

I got above 5,000 steps yesterday.

Day 15 – Wednesday, December 15, 2010: I forgot my pedometer yesterday. Since I have two, I'll just keep one in my purse. I want to build in a habit of walking about more if I can.

While it is very important to be of a normal weight, I also think it is important for eating not to be front and center in my life. Over the last few days, I have become aware of a difference in how I feel, and the difference is like a pain that has long been endured has simply ended.

Our Ford Windstar had 80,000 miles on it when we traded it in for $1,000. The transmission had just gone out on it, and we had paid more than $6,000 in repair bills in the prior two years. For about a year after we bought the Toyota, I would panic at every little sound. Then, gradually, I learned to trust that the Toyota was not about to break down. Now, in the four years we have owned the Toyota, all we've paid is routine maintenance. I am hopeful that trading in my old diets for this new approach will result in my no longer thinking so much about dieting and food. I'll get to a good-enough weight. I won't have to worry about feeling deprived all the time. I'll have a means for eating when there are unusual circumstances.

As I have thought about it more, I think that the Sunday indulgence is a way for me to make up for any lost eating opportunities over the prior week by having whatever I want in whatever quantity I want. Any other indulgences during the week are more to accommodate any unusual circumstances. For most social occasions, having a drink and a plateful of food is just fine. When dessert is served separately, it would be awkward not to accept. I'll figure it out over time. How I hated that Windstar. How I have hated focusing so much on my weight and food. It's been nice to have a reliable car. I look forward to a time when weight maintenance takes less and less of my time. It will never take no time, just like a Toyota needs routine maintenance, but it can take very little time of simply recording indulgences to keep myself honest.

Because I will reliably have an indulgence every Sunday, I won't record the one planned indulgence on Sunday. By one indulgence, I mean that I have everything before me before I take one bite, not that I have one piece of something like fudge. I could have a whole package of fudge before me, which is what I tried this past Sunday but then only succeeded in having about three pieces. Going forward, then, all I'll need to do is record indulgences -- defined as what is eaten other than at that one sitting each Sunday or is breath mints that is a snack or a sweet -- and that's it.

My oldest child is all excited about borrowing the bassoon over Christmas break to see how easily she can transfer her playing ability from oboe to bassoon. I'd like to be thinking about her and not my weight.

7 PM: We got that Windstar brand new in November 2000 because we needed a van that would carry four children and two adults: our youngest was born on Valentine's Day of 2001. It was a problem from the start. I never knew when it wouldn't start or stop, and it was a money pit. When we finally got rid of it at Christmastime in 2006, I was disgusted and relieved. Since then, there are few times that I even recall that van. I'm just happy that the Toyota is running so well, but I don't think too much about the Toyota because it does its job. I get the oil changed every 3,000 miles and have the local shop let me know what else needs to be done with it. Easy.

That's what I hope with happen with this diet. The diet I was following required so much thought -- even just with tracking of Exception Days -- that it could not become an automatic habit. I was constantly trying to figure out whether or not I should take an Exception Day. Now the default value is "No". There would have to be circumstances which argue for an indulgence and not just my deciding to take an indulgence because I feel like it. If I feel like something, I can wait until Sunday.

I am hoping this whole focus on dieting fades away as quickly as did my car concerns once we bought the Toyota. I feel like I'm in the equivalent of the time period with the van that we had just traded in the Windstar and I was still concerned about whether or not we would have problems with the Toyota. I remember that first week getting upset about a sound as I drove Anne and her classmate to school, and Anne pointed out it was something loose rolling around in the van.

I'm ever hopeful, ever optimistic... Time will tell, and my weight will show whether this is indeed as abrupt a change as trading in a money pit for a solid vehicle.

9:30 PM: Tonight I realized that it had been exactly three years since I started Intuitive Eating, otherwise known as The Peanut Cluster Diet to my kids. I went back in my journal and realized that I had lots of pieces of the puzzle but no answer back then. Here is something I wrote on November 25, 2007: " I am accustomed to having a full stomach, and it will be difficult to adjust to having a stomach that is not stuffed." Yes, it was difficult. It took months and months of allowing myself to eat as much as I wanted every weekend for me to be able to tolerate and then become accustomed to and then prefer having a stomach that is not stuffed.

I think I'm done. Yes, I'll track my weight, and yes I will not be entirely confident for a long time that I am really done, that I really have figured out how to lose weight and keep it off without making it my life mission. I am somewhat stunned that I came to this point without really appreciating what I was doing which was adjusting to "having a stomach which is not stuffed."

Will I miss the roller coaster ride of dieting and trying different things and failing and trying something new? Not at all. I'll miss dieting as much as I miss that Windstar. Instead of having the daily panic that I had with the Windstar which is equivalent to the constantly changing dieting ideas, I can have the planned and anticipated monitoring that is like taking the Toyota in for routine maintenance. I'm a person who does best with planners and things written down and planned ahead. It all seems so calm and peaceful. It almost seems like a dream that I could finally get to a point in which I can have a small meal (like I did today at lunch) and not think about food again until dinner, when I'm not counting the hours to the next food fest, when food isn't about a survival level instinct to get as much as I can but rather is about pleasure and socializing. I felt some of it tonight when the focus was on the kids taking turns answering the question, "What did you learn in school today?" My attention was on the kids, not the food. How wonderful it is to realize that my focus is already changing! It took a moment to remember what we had for dinner, but I remember my son talking about science class!

Day 16 – Thursday, December 16, 2010: I just want to clarify that I am not comparing the Windstar to Reinhard's No S Diet. I'm comparing the Windstar to my old diets, including the habit I developed of modifying The No S Diet every other day which was no way to cultivate a habit of moderation.

Day 17 – Friday, December 17, 2010: Yesterday at about 2, I realized I hadn't yet had lunch and should probably grab something to eat before a 3 PM meeting. How did this happen? Well, I think it comes back to the idea of no portion control. At breakfast, I had as much as I wanted of the foods I ate, which were oatmeal with raisins, milk, and dried apricots. My attention then went to work. I had no need to think of food because I was satisfied, just like I rarely think about the van because it needs gas and routine maintenance. With a portion control approach, everything has to be measured out and then at least I was just counting the hours to the next feeding. It was like being on the brink of disaster every minute. I like this idea better. Besides, I really, really like my job. It's only supposed to last until the end of January, but I'm hoping I get "extended", a term used in consulting which means they got used to you!

9 PM: Tom and I left the kids at home to eat pizza while we went out to plan the next week. We ended up at a Jewish deli where I ordered a bowl of beef and cabbage borscht soup and challah bread. I finished all the bread and more than half the soup when I realized I'd had enough. I was satisfied. I looked down at the bowl and thought that it was very odd of me not to finish off what was in front of me. Why? What has happened? Again, I think that this has to do with no portion control. Being able to have as much as I want at this meal means I don't need to overeat as a way to help me last to the next meal. I remember the all too familiar tease that Tom had for me when I would eat every last bit of Lean Cuisine and even lick the rest of the food after the kids had left the table. Now here I was thinking that the meal wasn't all that big but I just had had enough. We ate rather late, too -- about 7:30 or so, and it didn't bother me at all. It does seem like a big change, a sudden shift in how I react to food, BUT -- it's early. This may not last.

Day 18 – Saturday, December 18, 2010: 203.4 I remember well the up and down weight fluctuations of dieting. Weight from one day to the next doesn't just depend on calories eaten the day before. It also depends on when you get up in the morning and how much salt you had and all sorts of other factors. With this diet, it doesn't really matter if my weight fluctuates. After all, there wasn't much effort to follow the diet in the first place, and I have no urgent need to lose weight by some event next week. I want to lose weight but not at the cost of keeping it off.

That's why no portion control is so important an element in my diet. "Portion control" is what I have identified as the reason why my diets ended in the first place. This morning, I was thinking back to college where I had a meal plan. I would carry a card that would allow me in any of the dining halls on campus. There was a dining hall where I lived and there was a dining hall on the main campus and there were dining halls all throughout the university. How shameful, but I would sometimes eat an early lunch one place and a late lunch another place. In fact, I remember once eating three times for one meal. It was as if my stomach was a bottomless pit. Why?

Because I didn't start dieting in earnest until I was 17, I remember what it was like before I started dieting. I didn't have a food obsession. I didn't feel as though I could never be satisfied. I didn't need my stomach to be stuffed in order to feel comfortable. I didn't think much at all about food.

Those wasted years... It pains me. Yesterday, on the way to work, there was traffic, and it turned out the problem was on the other side of the highway. As I looked over, I saw two paramedics next to a very large, older man on his back with his arms out and two of those circular black pads used for restarting a heart. The man was stripped to his waist and actually on the highway rather than on a gurney. The two paramedics were not touching him but seemed to be calmly starting to gather up their things. With that one glimpse, I seemed to take in that they had tried but failed. As I went further down the highway, I saw police cars and fire engines coming to the scene.

It was a sobering reminder of the brevity of life. I want a good-enough diet that requires minimal effort or time. It was important to find a diet like this because I have children who will have to deal with a culture that is absolutely sick when it comes to weight maintenance. Reinhard's program is based on wisdom that was first described in one the greatest books of all time, Aristotle's Ethics. I've had my fill of programs that are scientifically based and that demonstrate their wisdom with facts about calories and the human body.

This diet is about the human spirit. As Reinhard put it when describing the reason why artificial sweeteners are a bad idea. "The habit-forming portion of your brain" is supposed "to be learning to live with fewer sweets... The whole premise of the No S Diet is that psychology is the most essential component of weight loss." I totally agree. Aristotle describes an ethical person as one who is in the habit of doing ethical things. I think that Reinhard is totally on target in focusing on habits that become effortless over time. All you need to do is follow habits that promote temperance. In this society, however, there isn't a focus on habits. There is a focus on using willpower to control portion size, and even those who succeed often suffer every day to maintain their weight. I'd rather be obese than have my life consumed by weight like it was when I was single. Now with my experiments in diets without portion control, I've spent less time on weight loss. If my weight does indeed start to fall and I become of an acceptable weight, this diet will take very little time -- maybe 3 or 4 hours per month to record the days of the month and describe when I have indulgences other than the Sunday indulgence.

Life is short. Being of normal weight is important for all sorts of reason. Spending life feeling like I'm starving all the time is not the way I want to live. I hope and pray that I've finally figured out the habits that will work for me to lose weight to an acceptable weight. Time will tell...

12 PM: Tom left me an article from today's paper which discussed the unusual situation yesterday morning of a man having a heart attack and driving into a snowbank while going to work during rush hour. Several cars behind him was a first responder with a defillibrator. When I passed by the scene, there were two people only and no gurney and no ambulance. As I drove farther down the highway, I saw police cars and a fire truck and an ambulance. What happened? The man had survived due to the sheer luck of being several cars ahead of someone who could help. What I had seen was not a man who had died but a man who had been jolted back to life. The two people who had used the defilibrator probably were just preparing for the arrival of the ambulance so that the man could be put on a gurney and taken to the hospital.

There is such an element to luck in life. While it is as sad to compare my weight problem to this person's luck in surviving a heart attack as it is to compare a pet's death to a person's death, I'll proceed anyway. It was luck that my sister-in-law mentioned The No S Diet book to me once during the summer of 2008 and once during Labor Day weekend that year. It was luck that I had spent the summer listening to Koterski's lectures on Aristotle's Ethics so that I could recognize the brilliance of the diet in building habits. It was luck that I had read Kelly Brownell's book Food Fight in late spring of 2008 and had the thought that this person was arguing for a problem with the environment (high availability of cheap junk food) whereas, maybe, just maybe -- I thought -- the problem was cultural. Because I read Food Fight and had that thought, I started looking to material on weight that pre-dated the mid 20th century. That's why I ended up listening to the lectures on Aristotle's Ethics. It was luck that I got to this point of having a diet built on habits of moderation because I first had to recognize the problem as cultural (thanks to my disagreeing with the premise of Food Fight) and then investigate cultural differences between our society and other societies (thanks to Koterski's brilliant lectures) and then become aware of a diet book built on the idea that habits must be built which can become automatic overtime (The No S Diet, of course).

I'm not sure I could have figured out what could work for me without support and encouragement from the forum. I really tanked last month, and BrightAngel encouraged me to return to vanilla No S. Returning, I faced that vanilla No S has portion control and I flat-out don't agree with the idea of portion control of any sort and didn't want a diet unless it could be followed perfectly. Have I modified this diet to suit my needs? Well, yes, I suppose it has since I settled on this approach on December 7. It's worked great for 11 days. I need to be somewhat cautious in thinking that something that has worked well for 11 days can work for a lifetime. Time will tell... At least I can enjoy Christmas with an approach that keeps food in its place. Meanwhile, Anne borrowed a bassoon from the school and wants to get a strap, so I need to buy that, and I need to fax health information to be signed by the pediatrician because Tom is going to Florida on a Boy Scout trip on Christmas Day and I still have to mail Christmas cards!

If this diet does work, somehow I'll think of it as Jesus' gift to me. There was so much luck in getting to this point and in being able to live without the constant panic and pain of choosing between starvation and obesity.

I'm happy that man survived. It was very disturbing to see him lying on the highway pavement on a cold snowy morning, stripped to his waist, with traffic going by slowly. When I saw him, I was thinking that I could be looking at a man who had just died -- this person who might be a husband, a father, a grandfather... Instead, he's alive, perhaps to better appreciate his life because of his brush with death.

2 PM: I looked back and realized that the diet actually started on Monday, December 6. On Sunday night, December 5, I decided I'd had enough of S Days and would only have S-events going forward. I'm renumbering again but back to December 6 as Day 1. Besides, December 6 is the Feast of St. Nicholas, my father's first name is Nicholas, and we carry on the tradition in my family of origin of putting shoes out to have them filled with candy by St. Nick on his Feast DAy. Last year, Ellie caught me putting candy in the shoes and said, "Mom, why did you do that? Now I can't tell what candy you put in my shoes and what candy Santa Claus put in my shoes." That day is a day filled with happy memories, and it would be nice to tie all those memories to this diet by having this diet start on December 6.

Day 14 – Sunday, December 19, 2010: 202.4 I got a notebook so that I could record my weight and steps without going on the computer. This morning, I woke up thinking about my Sunday indulgence. I may have a cup of Haagen Dazs ice cream (I bought chocolate chocolate chip yesterday) maybe a biscotti, and/or maybe a chocolate bar that I also bought. I'm not interested in stuffing myself. In fact, I'm repulsed by the thought of stuffing myself. If this continues, the weight will come off effortlessly. Time will tell...

2 PM: I feel somewhat bloated after having several pieces of caramel macadamian clusters, a biscotti, and a bowl of chocolate chocolate chip ice cream. As I turn away Christmas treats this year, I'll remember what it was like to feel just like I do now. The knowledge that I can eat as much as I want next Sunday will help me to avoid sweets and snacks all this week unless it would be socially awkward not to eat them. The one indulgence on Sunday is a necessary way for me to have a release from the restrictions of the diet. Any other indulgences are to be avoided unless there is a social element to them. I think most social occasions can be navigated with a drink rather than food. After all, who really is paying attention to what you are eating?

2 PM: I'm cooking a casserole for dinner and then have to take Anne to buy some clothes because she will be playing her oboe at the Christmas Eve and Christmas Day Masses. I'm too busy today to go to an Advent concert, and I'd really like to go. My time commitments have changed dramatically because of work, and now I need to reprioritize. To a certain extent, I think this diet journal can be counterproductive going forward because I'll want to tweak, tweak, tweak... What I really need to do is stick with this and see what happens. My gut sense is that I'll need to add fasting to the diet in order to because thin but that I can lose quite a bit of weight just by following the approach I've got today. Because I won't work in the summer, I'll have more time then to think and analyze and tweak. Maybe I should just cut back to once per month journaling so that I don't think too much about this diet and simply stick with it and see the baseline results of this approach with just fasting on Sunday mornings. I doubt there are any surprises in my future with regard to this approach, since I'm finally over wanting to stuff myself. We'll see, though. I really cannot predict what will happen. What I can do is wait and see what happens. That's what I need to do, and maybe a purposeful resolution not to write would help me not to tweak. My life can easily be filled with other things, especially now that I'm working.

I'll still track my weight and steps and still input it here at least once per month and maybe more often, but I will try to turn off the desire to perfect this diet. I want to get to a good enough weight with a good enough approach so that I can focus on Tom and the kids, not my weight. Anne was on this diet for a long time but decided it wasn't worth it, and I appreciate why: after all, I'm still obese. I would give up a lot for her to be of normal weight. When I look at her, I see in her future what was in my past, only she has chosen the path of obesity rather than the path of food obsession which I chose, at least until I gave up on "portion control" as a method of weight loss in 2002, which was after our fourth child was born. My love for Anne is what motivates me to find a weight control approach that doesn't take over your life, and to me that means a weight control method that doesn't involved "portion control". Now I need to test this approach out. It at least has the attribute of not taking over my life, and it remains to be seen whether the approach will result in sustained and sustainable weight loss. Even if this approach works for me, it would remain to be seen whether it works for others, including Anne. All I can do is figure out what works for me and make the approach known to her.

My life is half over. Hers is before her. She's only 16. I'd rather she be overweight than food-obsessed, but if there is a way to be thin and not food-obsessed, that would be the best path of all. She may, in the end, see that I have found a path to temperance without obsession, but she may choose not to follow it. That's her choice because it's her life. As a mother, all I can do if see if there is a path and show it to her. It was when she was nine that I first decided to find a path because I saw in her behavior one day that she would have a weight problem.

If I do find this path, it would be a great gift I could give her. She's a teenage girl. She doesn't appreciate how much her mother loves her, just like I didn't when I was a teenage daughter. Now I do. Now I appreciate the love of a mother for her daughter, and there is a special love for Anne because it was she who introduced me to the role of mother.

That love I have for Anne has been sufficient motivation for me to work on figuring out what I have been told is impossible to do, to figure out a way to be thin without any sort of "portion control". A mother's love is a powerful thing. I'm going to keep trying even if I keep failing. For now, the goal is simply to follow the approach I've settled on since December 6 and see what happens to my weight by next summer. The time for analysis is done; the time for action is now. I can analyze again next summer when I have more time.

Day 16 – Tuesday, December 21, 2010: 203.2 Anne told me earlier this month that she had given up on this diet. When I asked her why, she blamed her brother for teasing her. I said nothing, even though it saddened me that she would blame others for her weight problem.

Anne, when I talked with my parents last night, my father asked me if you know just how beautiful you are. I told him that you did, and then he asked about your weight and what I was doing about it. I told him that the best I could do is to serve as a good role model for you. He asked how I was doing with my weight -- was it down? -- and I said yes. Well, he got part of the truth: it is down since the beginning of the month, but I weigh more than I did in the summer when I last saw him.

I've had many detours on this diet. I have zero credibility with you now because I am still above 200 pounds. Someday, maybe you will read this journal which I kept for you. If you do, it will be because there is evidence that I have figured out how to lose weight without making it the focus of my life.

In retrospect, I wish I had never had S Days. They were too much like end-of-diet binges, and they just perpetuated out-of-control eating which became a shameful part of my life. Instead, I think I would have started with being able to have liquids anytime and three meals per day with no sweets. Every single meal is eaten to satisfaction because there is no "portion control". In addition, I would also allow myself one indulgence every day for a week. By indulgence, I mean a fourth sit-down eating of as much as I want but this time I can include sweets. Starting one week after the start of my diet, I would have one day per week when I don't have that indulgence but do have three meals per day eaten to satisfaction. After another month, I would have two days per week with no indulgence. After four more months, only Sundays would remain with an indulgence. In addition, I would not eat before church on Sundays as a way to learn to accept with equanimity the delay of a meal or a meal which is somehow unsatisfactory.

That is where I am today: three meals per day, one planned indulgence every Sunday, and fasting every Sunday morning. If I eat outside these guidelines, then I do nothing other than recognize that the food I am eating is outside the guidelines. If the eating isn't really justified for social or other reasons, then my eating is a lost opportunity to be temperate.

As part of my ongoing care of my health, I record my weight and exercise so that I can track how I am exercising.

It's not hard, Anne. The culture is sick with regard to care of health, and the focus on "portion control" is turning the society into one which is narcissistic: focused on myself and my weight problem. It's no wonder, though: if you feel like you are starving, your focus is on food. That's how God created us so that we would survive.

There is a limit to what I can do for you. What is most important is that you take responsibility for your life, including your health. I have not served as a good role model. It was years and years ago that I figured out that willpower is not the problem with my dieting, that there was some sort of problem with my thinking about eating and dieting that caused my weight problem. It was years ago that I figured out the problem had to do with the society's view that "portion control" was the way to lose weight. It is only now, when you are nearly 17, that I think I've figured out how to maintain a normal weight without any "portion control."

Maybe someday this journal will help you. I hope so, but it is still up to you to decide what you will do about managing your weight. I was so pleased to have your ninth grade science teacher tell me that you are a student who comes along once a decade. You have so much potential. Please take care of your body as well as your mind.

Love,
Mom

Day 19 – Friday, December 24, 2010: 204.2 I am moving back to having fasting as part of my diet. During the holiday season, you can avoid sweets and still have calorie-laden drinks like egg nog. I'm still eating to a level of satisfaction that prevents weight loss. The eating is more controlled in that I am very much able to keep within the no sweets and no snacks guidelines. I never really thought about egg nog as a sweet, but I'm not gong to worry about it being a sweet or not because it's something we have for a week or two at Chrstimastime and it helps me to avoid all the other treats. It's more important for me to limit the solids that are sweet than to reduce my overall calorie consumption because I'll get through the holiday season with the habits of no snacks and no sweets solid.

Fasting -- I keep on coming back to fasting as an alternative to portion control as a way to be temperate. Fasting in and of itself seems extreme, but it ends. No one fasts for life, but a diet of constant portion control seems like a life sentence.

Working full time since Katie was born 11 years ago, I am exhausted. I slept 10 hours last night and the night before. The kids have figured out that I cannot do everything, and they are pitching in to protect funding of various activities: ski club, a band trip to Chicago for Anne, a band trip to Branson for Tom, a possible family trip to Washington, D.C. next summer...

It's Christmas Eve, there's lots to do, and I am adding in fasting and thinking about fasting. If fasting can become a routine, I think that will lead to moderate eating and a normal weight without a lot of effort or time.

I am an experiment of one.

10 PM: I lasted with fasting until about 1 PM when I taste tested some wine without remembering that I was to fast until 2 PM. I realized then why No S in conjunction with fasting doesn't work very well for me.

I think I'm going to try just fasting. I think I'll try fasting Monday, Wednesday and Friday until 3 PM if possible and then until after church on Sunday. I forgot that traditional Catholic fasting was until 3 PM and not until 2 PM, but I did just fine until 2 PM today.

This is the wisdom of many, many religions -- that fasting is the path to moderation. I don't really understand it, but I'm willing to dive in and try it.

There seems to be something very calming about intermittent fasting. There is a sense of resiliency, too, in knowing that I really can last a long time without food and still be able to function well.

Tonight is the last night that Santa comes to our house. Ellie is simply not going to figure it out. She was upset that Dad would't let oats be thrown out for the reindeer, so we ended up putting some oatmeal outside. Anne is going to tell Ellie about "Santa's secret" after Christmas so she isn't embarrassed to find out when she gets into junior high.

There's always change in life. I have come, over the years, to place a high value on resiliency, and I think that fasting helps a person to be more resilient. Intermittent fasting is almost an extension of No S because it was No S that made me realize I really could function on only three meals per day. Now I'll learn to function well even if I don't eat until mid-afternoon.
Last edited by Kathleen on Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:15 pm, edited 96 times in total.

funfuture
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Post by funfuture » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:49 am

I'm rooting for you too, Kathleen.
fun

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Post by Kathleen » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:31 am

funfuture,
Thanks. I appreciate the encouragement I'm getting.
Kathleen

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Post by oolala53 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:41 pm

With all due respect, NOW you are being clever! Reinhard talks somewhere else about having your inner general dictate a yearly overall plan, such as lose weight. Your inner officer determines how to get there with month-long strategies: Vanilla No S. Your inner soldier has no say over what the orders are; she just has to carry out the orders! From meal to meal, that's it! When temptation comes up, just think, "those aren't my orders." Much like one poster here said without thinking one day when offered a pastry, "No, thanks, it's Tuesday." But you don't have to say it out loud.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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Post by reinhard » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:18 pm

Kathleen,

Sorry it's been forever since I popped in here -- sounds like you've done some very serious thinking and rethinking!
I was being way too clever
A common problem for clever people. :-)
I gained conviction and only lost time.
Yes! And conviction is worth a little time.
Holy mackerel, when you've got BrightAngel telling you to do Vanilla No S, go for it, girl!
Amen to that!

Congratulations and best wishes on your new resolution!

On a side note:
Aristotle, in his Ethics, argues that the practice of virtue is what leads to the establishment of habits of virtue which is what forms the character of a virtuous person.
I love Aristotle's ideas (and the Koterski Teaching company course) but so far I've been a little too intimidated by him to dive into his works directly. But the book club I've been in for years is wrapping up Plato's republic now and the Nicomachean Ethics is the next big thing on the agenda (after a little breather for lighter fare, maybe some Xenophon :-)). So look for signs of increasing Aristotelean influence on the everyday systems site starting this summer. :-)

Reinhard

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Post by Teemuh » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:54 pm

Good luck, Kathleen. I'm going to tighten up with Vanilla No S myself this month :)
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Post by Kathleen » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:32 am

Reinhard,

I just got a book in the mail today. Tom thought it was another diet book, but it was actually an Amazon used book called Daily Life in Greece At the Time of Pericles by Robert Flaceliere. I had gotten the book from the library and liked it so much that I decided to own a copy of it. It really helps me in understanding some of the Greek classics, like Plato's writings on Socrates. Symposium starts with a "S", so I think the Greeks anticipated this diet! As for Koterski, I think he would have been my best professor had I had him in college. I listened to his Teaching Company lectures on natural law and am now listening to his lectures on Biblical Wisdom Literature.

Anyway, I lucked into just a fabulous consulting assignment. It is only supposed to last 4 - 6 weeks, although I hope I get extended. For the next few weeks, I'll be very busy. It's nice to put the diet on autopilot and not be too clever with all my Exception Days and exercise plans and pedometer tracking. My favorite line from the book is "You're pre-disapproved!" (This is like oolala53's analogy of general and soldier. I was making myself a general by turning S Days into Exception Days to be selected at will and on the spur of the moment. Not a soldierly thing to do...)



Teemuh,
Thank you! Maybe my well-documented straying from No S will help others to look to vanilla No S once again!

Kathleen

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Post by TexArk » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:06 pm

Hey Kathleen,
Congratulations on your new job opportunity!

And, of course, I am happy to see that because you are honest with yourself you have found some answers in your search.

This is a post someone on here made a long time ago that I copied. I find it an interesting idea that by "fasting between meals" we gradually set our "hunger clock." I think the 3 meals part of NoS is the most important of all. This is why I think NoS N Days are important (no snacking) and S Days cannot be an "unconditional permission to eat" or "S Days Gone Wild." I think you mess up your hunger clock when you get too far off of the N Day pattern. In other words, if we keep the 3 meal pattern on S Days we are better off. On S Days desserts and seconds are just part of the meal most of the time. You can find the entire article but this is the gist:

Scientists Discover Hunger's Timekeeper
August 28, 2009

(PhysOrg.com) -- Researchers at Columbia and Rockefeller Universities have identified cells in the stomach that regulate the release of a hormone associated with appetite. The group is the first to show that these cells, which release a hormone called ghrelin, are controlled by a circadian clock that is set by mealtime patterns. The finding, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, has implications for the treatment of obesity and is a landmark in the decades-long search for the timekeepers of hunger.
24.7 bmi Feb. 2019
26.1 bmi Sept. 2018
31.4 bmi July 2017

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:34 am

TexArk,
Yes, I've experienced a change in appetite due to mealtime. I think I will eventually include fasting, but right now I need to focus on just plain vanilla S!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:40 pm

Kathleen wrote:Am I going to change this diet? Yes, and no.
I think I'll allow myself "conditional permission to eat" on Sunday before Mass
and then record whatever I eat that is outside No S rules.

Thus far this morning, despite good intentions, I have been an idiot.

....balance the desire to eat outside S Day rules with the desire to eat what I want.
I've sent you a more detailed PM about this.

ALL modifications are PRE-DISAPPROVED for you during the month of DECEMBER.

Eating what you want is NOT outside S DAY rules...even if you make yourself sick.

The remedy to being an IDIOT is NOT modifying rules.
Frequently modifying rules is just a temporary mental trick
that helps absolve one's guilty feelings...
It won't fix the basic problem....which is .....
.......making the choice to eat irresponsibly.

Eating Freedom doesn't have to mean Irresponsible Eating.

Within the basic No S Plan,
S days force us to experience Freedom,
which gives us the opportunity to make reasonable choices for ourselves...or not.

It isn't the Plan that's the problem.
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Post by oolala53 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:42 pm

How can you record whatever you eat that is outside of S day rules? There isn't anything outside of the rules on S days.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

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Post by Kathleen » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:36 am

oolala53,
What I was thinking was I could record all food eaten outside of N Day rules on S Days, but I hate recording what I eat so I moved rather quickly on from that idea.
Kathleen

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Moderation is the Ultimate Goal of the No S Plan.

Post by BrightAngel » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:59 am

Kathleen wrote: BrightAngel sent me a message suggesting that
the idea of "unconditional permission to eat" might not be helpful for me.
Quite understated!
I'm going to try one S event on Saturdays and one S event on Sundays
and one S event on Special Days
but I'll also allow myself breath mints if I need them.
Actually, what I said was that perhaps the TERM you use...
….â€unconditional permission to eatâ€...is NOT helpful for you.

The goal of the No S Plan is “Moderationâ€

What I suggested, was that you modify THE WAY YOU LOOK at S days,
(your mindset - your attitude)
NOT that you actually modify the No S PLAN to form new rules.

As part of Vanilla No S……
You can arrange your S day eating anyway you want.
On S days, you have total freedom to choose your own personal eating plan.

You can eat unconditionally;
You can set time periods for yourself to eat unconditionally;
you can choose to have only “S†events;
or choose to eat like a normal N day.

You can do ANYTHING you wish on S days..
On Each and Every Independent S day,
Vanilla No S gives you the Freedom to personally choose to do ANY of those things...
.....WHILE keeping in mind your basic and ultimate goal is Moderation....
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
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Post by Kathleen » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:18 pm

BrightAngel,
What I actually enjoy and remember is sitting down with a cup of coffee and some chocolate-covered pretzels. There is a sense of excess in that, especially first thing in the morning. I think S-events may be a good way to approach this. It's an indulgence that is confined to one sitting and so it isn't an all day binge.
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:08 pm

Kathleen wrote:I may think in terms of indulgences rather than days of "unconditional permission to eat."
That type of Thinking could be Very Helpful
on the days of the Vanilla No S Plan that give you
total Freedom to Choose When, What, and How to eat...
(i.e. all "S" days).
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Post by BeingGreen » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:30 pm

Kathleen,

I wish you the very best of luck following Vanilla No S this month. I agree completely that it is hugely challenging to avoid the temptation to add extra rules when the going gets tough (and you don't see the number on the scale going down immediately). I think Bright Angel hit the nail on the head with this brilliant observation:

"Frequently modifying rules is just a temporary mental trick
that helps absolve one's guilty feelings...
It won't fix the basic problem....which is .....
.......making the choice to eat irresponsibly. "

I don't make many comments on the boards but I have been following your journey for over two years since we joined at about the same time in September 2008. I have gone back and forth and added and subtracted rules to Vanilla No S in response to my "idiotic and/or irresponsible" eating behaviors.

People who binge while on No S feel uncomfortable and resent the limits imposed by a moderate No S Diet (myself included). But if we really want to weigh less, then we will have to find comfort in having moderate days, rather than finding comfort in overeating. It seems that you have finally come to this conclusion too.

I have recommitted (yet AGAIN) to Vanilla No S as of today. Best of luck to both of us!!

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Post by Kathleen » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:18 am

BrightAngel,
I think I'm allowing what I really remember and enjoy, which is an indulgence and not a mindless binge.

OlderandNotWiser,
Your name reminded me of a quip I once heard on TV of a person saying that the couple had repeated the first year of marriage for ten years! I feel as though I've been repeating my diet failures for two! I don't seem to get much pleasure out of "unconditional permission to eat". What I really enjoy is the conscious indulgence. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. I don't recall having tried the S-event before!
Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:06 pm

Kathleen wrote: ...turned my reaction to dieting into a reaction that is spontaneous and unavoidable,
like the spontaneous action of putting out your hands to catch a fall.
Your reaction sounds remarkably like a HABIT. Image
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Post by kccc » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:46 pm

Kathleen wrote:It's an indulgence that is confined to one sitting and so it isn't an all day binge.
Making indulgences into discrete events was a HUGE step forward for me.
In addition to limiting excess, they're just a lot more enjoyable than continuous eating!

Thinking in terms of S-events sounds like a really good strategy for you.

You might also think about what purposes S-days serve.
- They're "release valves," so that too much restriction doesn't backfire. So you KNOW that "there will be nice food again."
- They're an opportunity to practice self-regulation/moderation... SOME treats, but not eating to illness.
- Most of all, they're a learning experience, when you reflect on "how it went." They can teach you about your likes, dislikes, and needs.

Through S-days, I learned that I do not like feeling "icky". I learned that I PREFER regular meals, even on S-days. I learned that I tended to not drink enough on S-days (until I paid attention).

You've just learned the beauty of S-events. :) Congrats!

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Post by Kathleen » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:35 am

KCCC,
When did you come to that realization? I'd like to read in your thread about it! And thanks for the encouragement. I read your post to me and decided to pick up some chocolate fudge as a reminder of what awaits me if I follow this diet!
Kathleen

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Post by kccc » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:12 pm

Kathleen wrote:KCCC,
When did you come to that realization? I'd like to read in your thread about it! And thanks for the encouragement.


I don't think my turning point is in my thread - but there's a post I made at the time, entitled "memo to self". I bumped it to the main page for you.
I read your post to me and decided to pick up some chocolate fudge as a reminder of what awaits me if I follow this diet!
Kathleen
Think about that nice treat when you're tempted by low-quality junk - that the good stuff is waiting for you on your S-day. Then, when you do have it, sit down, relax, and eat slowly and attentively. No sneaking, scarfing or standing to eat - even on an S-day! ;)

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Post by BrightAngel » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:01 pm

Kathleen wrote:I just had my bath and had some time to think.
Image Thinking is frequently a Dangerous thing for you.Image
Kathleen wrote:I think that one planned indulgence per week is enough
and in fact two would dilute the value of the one.

There is, however, the problem of social events.
I wonder if I could just write down what I would call indulgences -
- those times when I violate N Day eating rules.
This may be yet another tangent, but I think I'll try it.

A better course of action,
I think,
might be to ...
have one time of "unconditional permission to eat" per week,
which is when I plan my indulgence.
All other times are indulgences as well,
but there is a reason for them but that reason does not need to be planned ahead.
I think I'd be willing to record these indulgences to keep myself honest.
You are in a one month committment to Vanilla No S.
and
you planned a special fudge treat for Sunday's "S" day..
but remember that your thinking affects your action...Image
so...think of it NOT as a one time "unconditional permission to eat",
but rather, simply an "S" day Fudge Treat,
...merely an "S day indulgence" which you are free to eat in reasonable moderation.

Vanilla No S is designed to give EATING freedom on "S" days..
...not freedom from AWARENESS of eating details.
I'm always FOR the AWARENESS that writing things down brings....
and successful No S, depends on AWARENESS both on "N" days and on "S" days..
so I see no problem with a choice
to write down your "N" day food deviations on any or all days of the week.

Talking in terms of "social event" problems is a slippery slope.
It looks here like you are talking only about how to handle Saturday "S" days...
but
there are 6 other days of the week in which "social event" problems frequently occur.
Be careful you don't look at writing food down as a Trade for permission to have extras on N days. Image
watch out...don't try to sneak "Exceptions" into Vanilla No S.
All N days are either a Success or a Failure.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
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Post by Kathleen » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:17 am

KCCC,
I printed off the memo to self to read. Thank you for bumping it.


BrightAngel,
The good news is that I have not had one minute to consider dieting since my journaling this morning! What I want and would miss is a planned treat, not an all day binge which I usually cannot even remember. As for social events, yes, they could be a problem but they are much less of a problem than I would have thought. Surprise, surprise... most people aren't observing what you are or are not eating! I think what I'll do is write down my indulgences, so we'll see how many N Day exceptions I choose to take. Today, I had some Tic Tacs. I decided Tic Tacs should be OK if I have one at a time and suck them rather than eat them. I'm meeting people and am self-conscious if I have bad breath.
Kathleen

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Post by Spudd » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:27 pm

Kathleen,

I think that your biggest problem is you constantly change your plan. You can't tell if a plan works or not if you change it after being on it for a week.

I think that your fear of binging non-stop on S-days will probably come true for a while, if you continue to follow Vanilla No-S. But after a while, you will realize the sweets will be there EVERY weekend, and it's nicer to have a small indulgence than to stuff yourself to bursting. Not just intellectually, but your body will tell you that's what it wants.

I think because of your years of dieting, you've painted yourself into a corner where you're afraid of being deprived ever. With No-S, the deprivation lasts only 5 days (and it's not even THAT depriving). Then on the weekend you can eat what you want, when you want.

I really think you should stick with Vanilla No-S for at LEAST a month, but I would suggest 6 months to really give your S days a chance to settle down. If you haven't lost weight after the 6 months, you can then re-evaluate and see if you can figure out a new plan. But seriously I think your jumping from plan to plan constantly is doing more harm than good.

I realize this must seem very unsolicited advice and I apologize for that. I've been reading your thread for a long time - I share a similar background to you in terms of dieting. I dieted by calorie counting and hard-core exercising for several years, and then decided that I was too obsessed, and went to "unconditional permission to eat" aka Overcoming Overeating. I did that for several years and gained a lot of weight (from 135 at my lowest up to 200 at my highest). Then I found No-S and I find it to be a real sanity-saver. Anyways, enough about me. I just wanted to let you know I do understand where you're coming from. And I wish you all the best.

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Post by BrightAngel » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:26 pm

Kathleen wrote: I do like the idea of a planned indulgence on Sundays and then just recorded indulgences at other times.
This somewhat dispenses with the N Day/S Day dichotomy and could careen right into a ditch fairly quickly,

What I have realized is that my attitude is that I need to take full advantage of S Days when I have them,
and so I just turn off any sort of restraint and eat non stop the whole day if I'm around food.
Clearly, this is not an attitude to have if I plan to lose weight.

On the other hand, I've adjusted fairly well to an N Day mentality that I eat only at mealtimes and don't have sweets.

Could I last just with every day as an N Day and occasional, justified treats?
Yes, I think so.

It also means justifying all eating outside N Day rules unless it is my one Sunday indulgence.
Could that work? Yes, I think it could.

I think it's a good step to go from S days to events,
but I also think some sort of fasting is necessary so that I learn to tolerate hunger
because there are times when meals will be delayed and I need to know I can handle it.

So much for being committed to vanilla S for a month...
Kathleen.
Please Listen to the voice of reason. Image

Your comments remind me of an old and common child's trick which goes like this...
There is something nearby that a child plans to get,
but the child doesn't want a nearby person to see it taken.
So the child says to the other person...."LOOK OVER THERE",
and while the other person is looking...the child takes the object.

You are both the child and the other person.
While the other person is distracted and soothed by devising new diet rules and strategies,
the child continues to eat just as it wishes.

You have made a COMMITMENT that you will do Vanilla No S for the month of December.
You need to HONOR your COMMITMENT.
Vanilla No S gives plenty of room for individual preferences.

You have "N" days, in which you eat only 1 plate of food
at each of your meals..(normally 3),
No seconds, No snacks, and No sweets.


Within those N day peremeters you can choose to ......
eat whatever foods you like,
schedule your 3 meals when you like,
skip meals or eat nothing if you like (fasting is okay),
write any or all of your food down or not,

Exercise is not an issue of Vanilla No S.
Things like allowing an occasional breath mint or piece of gum for bad breath
is like brushing your teeth with toothpaste...i.e. shouldn't even be an issue...
certainly
not during one's first month of committing to vanilla no s.

If you eat outside the basic N day rules, DURING N DAYS, it is a Failure.
End of story.
No rationalizing, no justifying, no excuses.
No matter what you find your mind telling you, the rules didn't change and it's not okay.
IMMEDIATELY...that day, that hour, that minute, that second,
resume compliance with your N day rules.

You have "S" days, in which you have the Freedom to eat as you like.

Within those S day peremeters you can choose to......
eat the same way you do on N days,
have S day events - in which you limit eating outside the "N" day rules,
eat whatever, whenever, and as much of whatever you like,
fast or binge part or all of the day.

Whether you do any or all of those things DURING S DAYS, it is a Success.
End of story. No rationalizing, no justifying, no excuses.
At any time, during S days, you have the ability and the choice to
IMMEDIATELY...that hour, that minute, that second, change your mind,
because there is nothing you MUST comply with on S days.

THIS IS YOUR DECEMBER COMMITMENT. You don't get to change it.
You might break the N day rules, but You can't break the S day rules...there aren't any.
Individual choices within the basic rules during December are acceptable,
and you can play with scheduling eating events during your S days,
or with allowing yourself to break the rules during N days,
however...it is CLEARCUT. You've made a Commitment.
There is no justification or excuse
for deviatiating from this overall Basic Vanilla S Plan in December.

THE IDEA IS TO STICK WITH THE SAME BASIC PLAN - Vanilla No S - for ONE MONTH.
and stop this endless and repetious cycle of figuring a way to weasel out of the Basic rules.

Reading and re-reading the NO S book will be Helpful to you.

Image What I am REALLY interested in is........
HOW are you doing with the 1 plate rule on N days?
Are you following it? Do it find it easier than you thought,
or are you finding it extremely difficult?
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:23 am

BrightAngel,
I did fine today. For me, the problem with the one plate rule is fruit. Tonight, we had Chinese take-out -- not the best, of course, but I ate in five minutes at 6 PM so I could dash to the school to talk with two of Tommy's teachers for school conference night. I put an apple next to the plate and ate it in the car on the way to conferences. For lunch, I had a mini sandwich in a rush because I had so much to do that I didn't get much time for lunch. For breakfast, I had cereal and a cutie (again, the problem of fruit with a meal). Outside of mealtime, I finished off the TicTacs I had bought on Monday. I don't have much of a desire for large quantities. For example, at lunch, I could have had a regular sandwich but didn't. Here's the problem for me: S Day means binge, not letting loose on the controls. Did I intend that to be the case? No. I have a switch between N Day and S Day, and I think it might be best just for me to give up entirely the idea of S Day. It's actually a rather painful memory. In fact, I remember at one point about three months into this diet thinking that S stood for stomach ache. To your point, exceptions are a really bad idea. Exceptions can be the taste test grabbed at the grocery store or the leftover kids meal inhaled during clean up. I'm all too familiar with exceptions. Indulgences, on the other hand, mean something entirely different. They have a bit of glamor to them. I don't think I would mind recording indulgences.

Kathleen

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Post by Eileen7316 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:42 am

But Kathleen,

You don't have to go off Vanilla No-S to do that! EVERYTHING is permissable on S-Days. Whether it's an indulgence or all-out binging. Doesn't matter!

Can you just stick with something, ANYTHING for one month? Don't change it because you feel it's not working. Spudd is right - you cannot judge outcomes based on 1-7 days of feedback. You haven't given any of your plans long enough to figure out whether they actually work or not.

N days: 3 plates of food (ANY kind of food)
S days: you decide.

Those are pretty flexible parameters... Please go back and read BrightAngel's last post to you. It is full of common sense. Especially this:
You have made a COMMITMENT that you will do Vanilla No S for the month of December.
You need to HONOR your COMMITMENT.
Vanilla No S gives plenty of room for individual preferences.
You have stated in the past that you will follow a plan with fidelity, just like your marriage. Yet, you have not done that! Honor your commitment. If one of your children tried to reneg on a commitment they had made, would you not INSIST they honor it?

And one more BrightAngel quote that put a light bulb on over my head:
You are both the child and the other person.
While the other person is distracted and soothed by devising new diet rules and strategies,
the child continues to eat just as it wishes.
Wishing you all the best...

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Post by kccc » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:48 am

Kathleen,

Let me add to the chorus. :)

Keep it simple, and stick to it.

There is actually a good bit of flexibility within Vanilla No-S. Have "indulgences" on S-days. Have good food on N-days.

Just stay within the lines of No-S for at LEAST one month. (And longer would be better.)

Best,

KCCC

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Post by Kathleen » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:53 am

Eileen7316,

I went down to one S Day per week in May of 2009. Returning to vanilla No S meant two S Days per week. By Sunday night, despite my best effort at moderation especially on Sunday, I was feeling terrible. Do I want to repeat that? No. I think I'm cured of S Days. S Days have become for me a warped version of what Reinhard intended them to be, which was a loosening of the controls.

How about this? I'll make a commitment to this through the end of the month:

1. One planned indulgence on Sundays (eating outside N Day rules)
2. Record all indulgences
3. Allowance for Tic Tacs -- limit of one per week at work only


KCCC,

I think I've had my very last S Day. It turns my stomach just to think of them. When I first started No S, I was literally counting the hours until Friday midnight and sometimes actually waiting up until midnight. Now what feels comfortable is the N Day, not the S Day. I think an S event, which I choose to call an indulgence, would be a positive experience for me. In contrast, I've had two years of negative experiences with S Days. I've had enough.

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:25 am

Kathleen wrote: How about this? I'll make a commitment to this through the end of the month:

1. One planned indulgence on Sundays (eating outside N Day rules)
2. Record all indulgences
3. Allowance for Tic Tacs -- limit of one per week at work only
Image Perhaps you need to read my morning post to you...again....
Those 3 listed extra "commitments" are within the parameters of Vanilla No S,
and therefore, whether you do them or not is acceptable as part of
your BASIC COMITTMENT to Vanilla No S for the entire month of December...
which is the Comittment you have already made, and which you are now being Held to.

If it gives you pleasure, you can make all kinds of new and extra rules for yourself...
....within the Boundaries of Vanilla No S....to implement immediately.
But You don't get to Change your Basic December Vanilla No S Commitment.
Kathleen wrote: I think I've had my very last S Day.
I've had two years of negative experiences with S Days.
I've had enough.
I think that you mean that you've had your last Bingeing "S" Day,
but I'll bet you haven't.
Image
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Post by Kathleen » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:17 am

BrightAngel,

The difference is whether to consider it a failure if you have dessert at your husband's holiday party for work. That's the difference.

As for what I do on S Days, I think I got trapped in something, and I'm not sure why. If I know that I end up with a stomach ache when I binge, why do I binge on S Days? Can I really change my behavior simply by eliminating the idea of S Days and substituting indulgence events?

I was an English major in college, and words have more impact on me than they do on many other people. I tend to be precise in my use of words. I do think there could be an impact in a relabel.

Look at the whole debate over abortion: pro life vs. pro choice. Words affect how something is viewed, and I just don't think I can succeed with S Days because I've linked them to the Intuitive Eating concept of unconditional permission to eat and turned S Days into binges which is not what was intended by the authors of Intuitive Eating either. I've played with the idea of "unconditional permission to eat" now since I bought that book back in 2003 or 2004. It's time to drop the idea and start fresh with a new vocabulary.

Kathleen

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Post by BrightAngel » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:33 pm

Kathleen wrote:Can I really change my behavior
simply by eliminating the idea of S Days and substituting indulgence events?

I was an English major in college,
and words have more impact on me than they do on many other people.
I tend to be precise in my use of words.
I do think there could be an impact in a relabel.

I've played with the idea of "unconditional permission to eat" now since 2003 or 2004.
It's time to drop the idea and start fresh with a new vocabulary.
There is a reason that members of my profession are known as "word merchants".
Image I understand the value of semantics.
However, before redefining the plan by changing its terms, Image
you need to be careful that you have a clear understanding of the original plan.

One thing I really like about Reinhard is his precise use of the English language.
I suspect you would be better served by paying close attention to his SPECIFIC words
...careful reading and frequent re-reading of his book will help with that....
rather than continuing to justify and rationalize making changes in the basic plan,
through your intellectual process of CHANGING the words he used to create the plan.

For example, your personal terms, "unconditional permission to eat" and "perfect compliance",
did not come from the No S Plan but are merely phrases from your memory of other Plans.
These are two excellent examples of how gluttonous and perfectionistic thinking
have tricked you into redefining the No S Plan in order to justify NOT following it as written.

It is Great that you no longer want to define "S" as "Binge" days.
"S" days were never intended to be defined as Binge days.
That is totally a personal misinterpetation of Reinhard's words.
Image Read the No S book again..and again.
Listen to Reinhard's 3 podcasts defining "S" days again and again.
Break through the mental handicap that is keeping you stuck.Image
Today is an N day. Focus on following the 1 plate rule.
Last edited by BrightAngel on Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by funfuture » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:39 pm

Kathleen,
I think what people are saying is that you really only have to concentrate on the N-Days. That's all you have to worry about to do Vanilla No-S. At the moment, you're worrying about the S-days. If you would prefer not to binge on S days, then fine, don't - as BrightAngel says, the ultimate goal of NoS is moderation. But stop worrying about them and making new rules. Instead, concentrate on the N-days. Put your attention on the N days for this one month. Make sure they are working - without any exceptions or any changes.
If you want the freedom that No-S gives, if you want to lose weight long term, then it's that simple.
It might not feel like it, but there are lots and lots of voices here cheering you on.
fun
x :)

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Post by oolala53 » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:57 pm

If I am not due an NWS day and it is not a weekend day, then, yes, having dessert at any event is a failure. In my mind, the most important reason is that it reinforces the idea that going without dessert at such a time is some kind of terrible deprivation and that I shouldn't have to live that way. It is nothing of the kind. We live in a society with umpteen chances for the kind of food celebration that happened only a few times a year in human formative times. It doesn't really hurt to skip the sweets most days, esp, since I probably had a great meal and I'm full. That's what moderation is.

By the way, there is a completely reasonable chemical reason why people binge that can be reduced or eliminated mainly be either abstaining forever from the triggering foods, or eating them in small quantities occasionally and then suffering through the inevitable urges to eat more. Doing this time and again will decrease the urges or even eliminate them for all practical purposes. No S supports this.

You're a pretty tough cookie! So you've got the chops to be stubborn. Consider being as stubbornly moderate. It will become easier and easier. And in a year, you'll be the one guiding others through their Scylla and Charybdis passages.

I greatly appreciate your willingness to be public about your thoughts.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23

There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)

kccc
Posts: 3957
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:12 am

Post by kccc » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:40 pm

Kathleen wrote:KCCC,

I think I've had my very last S Day. It turns my stomach just to think of them. When I first started No S, I was literally counting the hours until Friday midnight and sometimes actually waiting up until midnight. Now what feels comfortable is the N Day, not the S Day. I think an S event, which I choose to call an indulgence, would be a positive experience for me. In contrast, I've had two years of negative experiences with S Days. I've had enough.

Kathleen
Dear Kathleen,

I think your concept of "indulgences" is an absolutely beautiful way to approach S-days, and will help you tremendously. Thinking about what you enjoy - and actually giving it time/attention so that it IS enjoyable - is a wonderful way to get in touch with yourself.

What concerns me is that I think I'm hearing you say that you can have N-day indulgences too. If so, that strikes me as very, very dangerous. (If not, I apologize for my misunderstanding.)

What concerns me even more is that this sounds like "Yet Another Clever Tweak." You are hearing "don't tweak, just follow the plan" From a chorus of caring voices. You yourself acknowledged that your attempts to be clever have undermined you.

I feel that I'm watching you undermine yourself again.

But you're a grownup, and get to make your own choices. So after this post, I will back off.

My final advice: Whatever you do, do it for at least a month. Longer would be better. And set the bar at the level that you CAN do. But stick with it.

Whatever you do, I wish you success.

With very, very best wishes and affection,

KCCC

Kathleen
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: Minnesota

Post by Kathleen » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:31 pm

A HUGE deterrent to having an N Day indulgence is having to report it, especially here! I had Tic Tacs today because I had four meetings one on one in people's offices. I brought about 3/4 cup of trail mix (no M & Ms) for lunch and it wasn't enough, so I considered going down and having a lunch. Instead, I bought some V-8 and took a 10 minute walk between the buildings and told myself that there is no way I am reporting here that I had an N-Day indulgence because of a too small lunch. NO WAY!! Oh, the benefit of an online accountability group...
Kathleen

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