Can one failure day be overcome?

[Kathleen]

I am approaching this diet with the view that one failure is a disaster. I changed the definition of Special Days to an accumulation of two each month to be used however I want. They must all be used before an N day is defined as a failure. This provides me a buffer against any failures. I now have three Special Days which can be used if I end up having a taste test at a grocery store or going out for ice cream. At the start of my second month, I have accumulated four Special Days and used one, so that's how I have three days as a buffer against a failure on an N Day.

This is an issue that I identified many years ago, the issue of "perfect compliance." I'm not sure where I got the idea because it wasn't in the book where I thought I got it from. There have been many, many diets of mine which have failed when I got to 1,503 calories and within minutes was up past 3,000 calories. There have been many behavioral modification diets (like always sit down to eat) which ended when I couldn't resist the taste tests at a grocery store. That's why I modified the definition of Special Days -- so I wouldn't be just one bite away from a feeding frenzy.

What are your thoughts on whether or not a failure day can be overcome?
I'd love to hear especially from people who are successful on the diet and have occasional failure days. Thanks.

Kathleen

[la_loser]

Kathleen,

I know that you are determined to make this work and feel strongly about building your "fence around the law" as Reinhard says. But please don't be so hard on yourself; part of the beauty of this diet besides its simplicity and logical approach is that it allows for all of us to be human;

A few months ago, KCCC made a comment that we added to the No S Glossary topic that I created and that Reinhard made a Sticky of. . . see http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3883

Her line was "mark it and move on." It's like Scarlet said, "tomorrow's another day." I understand what you're saying about feeling like you messed up so why not go all out and eat everything in sight if you're going to have a red day anyway. . . I found that after a number of days of being relatively consistent--not perfect--that my brain slapped me when I was tempted to do that very thing.

On that same post I replied to someone else about trying to find a way a record minor failures while still documenting my strict compliance. . .

I posted a longer version of the following on the Limiting Failure topic on July 13, then of course had to go back and reiterate to everyone that my goal was to still be true to strictly No S --but like your idea about the one exception for the day fits well with this. . . On my Strictly Speaking HabitCal, it would still be a RED day--but on the GREEN_Equals_Two_R_Less_S_Slips HabitCal, I would be able to track if it was a single slip or two rather than an all out crazy day!

These are the types of strategies that I could include in my addendum to my little document. . . not one-liners or zingers but food for thought. I've already added several other suggestions from other posters in that area as well.

From that post:
Quote:
I do want to have an honest record of my No S journey. Rather than do it on the daily check-ins. . .takes too long-I get so wordy (obviously!) and I don't have time to do that all the time! So I have made additional HabitCals. . . I created:

Strictly_Speaking_No_S--as per Reinhard's Fence Around the Law line of thought (I went back and copied my original NoSDiet Habitcal and deleted the original) I mark that to have a record to compare my strict compliance and when I just had one or two little slips.

Not_an_Idiot_S_Day: Reserved for S days whether it's weekends of NWS days. . . to be able to track my habit of not going crazy on those days!

GREEN_Equals_Two_R_Less_S_Slips: My way of keeping track of little slips (ok-failures!) of the strictness of the diet--but so I can note whether this was a biggie or just one extra helping of one item and/or one healthy type snack, perhaps. . . I give myself a RED on that HabitCal if my slip-ups were more massive!

At least by doing it by HabitCal, it's quick to record and a great visual version of my progress. And it tells a more complete story.

So allow yourself to "mark it and move on." I know for me that trying to determine how many S days I'd take ahead of time, etc. would send me right back into that old SAD (substance accounting diet) mentality of having to keep track of too much info. Again, the simplicity of No S is just so hard for us to wrap our heads around that I know I tended to try to find little (or bigger) ways to make it more restrictive or complicated that it had to be. And it's going to take more than a couple of weeks for you to truly get the feel of this thing. I hopped around the idea for a number of weeks before I really could adjust to "really" committing to No S for real. We don't undo habits we've had for years in a week or a month or maybe even several months. Perhaps giving yourself permission to "fail" and realize that you can jump right back on that horse again the next day!

Yee haw!!!

[Kathleen]

LA Loser,

The reason why I bring up this issue, in addition to the fact that I have been struggling with this for years, comes from my review of blogs. Look at mel1972c's blog. She dumped out food, replaced it, and then had several cookies. She made a comment on my blog but hasn't been back to update her own blog. Why?

With a habit like brushing your teeth, you simply don't consider the alternative of not brushing your teeth. Some habits become so ingrained that it is unthinkable to break them. I likened a failure day to infidelity in marriage -- yes, I know, a very strong analogy.

There are lots of blogs that haven't been updated, and I'm wondering -- what happened? If people "fell off the wagon", why?

People are different, so maybe there are different responses to one failure. I think it's something that has to be grappled with individually, and I do like the idea of "mark it and move on."

You've got an approach that looks like two fences. You don't really have a red day unless you really blow it.

Kathleen

[JillyBean]

Kathleen,

I am glad you are looking into this, because I have noticed and wondered the same thing. When I first joined No-S back in April there were quite a few of us "newbies" at the time because the diet had just come out in Woman's World magazine. I was so gung-ho (like most newbies) and avidly read posts and looked forward to hearing what others were doing. A few of those that were really active back then had things happen in their lives and then suddenly were just not here any longer. No "goodbye, this didn't work for me," or "I'm doing so well. I don't think I'll post anymore," or "I had a failure day and I quit." I think people just move on to something else if and when they start finding that this is not a magic bullet. It takes work, no matter what you do. If sticking to a healthy life-style were easy, we'd all be doing it.

But, even those that do stick to a healthy lifestyle have days when they eat something they think they shouldn't. No one is perfect! What I've begun to learn is this: If we set ourselves up for perfection, we are asking, in advance, for a way out. I left No-S for a little while too, but realized in a short time that it is the best thing going, even if I can't do it perfectly and want to tweak here and there. It's more sustainable than anything else I've ever tried. Plus, I love the website and the people that come (and sometimes go) around here. I hope you are one who sticks around - no matter what anybody else does.

[la_loser]

A couple of thoughts. . . First Kathleen's comment about my multiple HabitCals:

You've got an approach that looks like two fences. You don't really have a red day unless you really blow it.

As I said in an earlier-earlier post:

On that same post I replied to someone else about trying to find a way a record minor failures while still documenting my strict compliance. . .

My personal choice has been to simplify my "bookkeeping" in order to keep a clear record of how I'm really doing. I don't keep a daily check-in. I'm not particularly interested in blogging everything I do/list what I eat. To me, that's putting ME right back into the old diet mindset. What IS working for me is to collect data about my eating habits simply with HabitCals. The HabitCal was designed as I understand it to be a useful TOOL for us to track our habits. If my HabitCal was public, you would see that I have very few RED days even on my Strictly Speaking HabitCal. But over time, I can also see by looking at my other Habitcal to track whether those RED days might have been minor slip-ups. This is what keeps me from making a very slight slip-up and rebounding to that "Oh, well, whatever-I may as well make the most of my RED day" mentality.

For ME this is easier and faster than doing a daily check-in-quick and easy. My goal is ALWAYS to follow the strictly speaking No S rules--but if I do mess up, it's good to be able to see to what extent I messed up.

So yes, I do have RED days . . . sometimes on BOTH HabitCals--and I mark it and move on and learn from it.

Regarding the various members who do not necessarily post lots of replies or keep their info updated, I would guess there are a number of reasons for that. I have at least four friends locally who are doing No S (because they heard about it from me) and have never posted anything. Sometimes someone will post something and comment that they've been "lurking" around the boards for a while. Some of those who used to post a lot may still be lurking too. . . or maybe not. Certainly, there are probably some who drop off the radar because they "failed" or decided the plan wasn't for them for whatever reason. From my experience, I can say that my early days and weeks on No S, I was more "religious" about checking the boards and posting comments. Now that I have internalized so much of it and have a better handle on my habits and understand the little "what ifs" of the diet from reading lots of posts and the book, that I am not driven to spend my time on the boards. I remember not long ago, someone posted a comment to the effect that she'd lost a lot of pounds on it and had never ever posted anything. For her, the solution seemed to be to take care of her own self and use her time to live her life. And please, I hope someone doesn't reply that I'm sounding critical of those who post a lot--I am not--if it wasn't for all of you, we wouldn't be gaining all this wonderful information.

I would guess that in a perfect world (yeah right!), we would all have our habits so ingrained in our minds and bodies that we wouldn't even have to keep any sort of record. . .but meanwhile till that happens we all have to find what works for us. In "A League of their Own", Tom Hanks had a line that said something like. . ."If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. . . difficult is what makes it worthwhile" which affirms JillyBean's comment that if a healthy lifestyle were easy, we'd ALL be doing it.

I know that for me, if I were to obsess/analyze every bite I put in my mouth or every mistake I make, that I would end up right back where I started. This has freed me to use my time to do other things I'd like to do. As a matter of fact--I remember that on the Fourth of July, I posted a comment a la "let freedom ring" regarding how I had declared my independence from all those old diet restraints/mindsets I've had drilled into me for years.

Again--this is not an comment on how other people choose to implement No S. . . it's just about what works FOR ME. It's awesome that there is such diversity in the individual ways we are making it work for us!

OK--so now I've gone on and on. . . instead of taking care of stuff I need to be doing! nuff said!

Good luck!

[rose]

IMHO learning to accept failed days and LEARNING from them is one of the steps towards NoS long-term success.

I think the failed day = infidelity is too much.

If you want to compare NoS and marriage, then a "failed day" would be like getting yourself in a situation where you get emotionally or physically too close to someone who is not your spouse but without actual infidelity, only temptation and/or embarrassment. In this case you resolve to do better the next time and avoid esses = avoid getting in that kind of situation, i.e. you learn from your "failure" but you don't let it destroy your marriage.

Infidelity could be compared to letting go and throwing away NoS principles i.e. giving up.

But the difference between a marriage and NoS is on NoS, when you have strayed, even for weeks, even for months or years, you can always come back and try to do better this time. There is noone who will resent your actions but yourself.

Actually I think a lot of people need several starts on NoS in order to be able to follow it without getting discouraged by occasional failures. The time you spend away from NoS is a waste in many ways but it's an occasion to check that other eating plans don't work for you and the next time you start NoS you are more motivated to make it work.

Personally I started NoS twice and the 2nd time it stuck. But it's also more or less the way I was brought up. And yes I occasionally have failures on N days, sometimes several in one week, but I don't let them throw my long-term plans away. If the same failure happens several times on end, I try to understand what went wrong, take actions so that it does not happen again (for instance hide snack food on the back of the top shelf, or just don't buy it), and I move on.

(Also, keeping a checkin thread online is not part of the diet. People who don't update are not necessarily off NoS completely. And even if they are, perhaps they will come back... actually I think probably they will come back someday when they have tried every "fast" diet ever invented and found it doesn't work long-term.)

[blueskighs]

i think for me the answer is not so much "how many failures" or "will failure send me over the edge" i am more motivated by can i "just for today" eat 3 meals, with nothing in between.

it's kind of a game, but what i have learned is guess what, this is a game i can win

other diets or eating programs are too prohibitive and i can only win for limited periods of time, but with NO S, i get 2 WINS EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND ... NO MATTER WHAT ... and if that is not enough i get my NWS days ...

i suspect that coming from a background of "sobriety" and "abstinence" in AA and OA also influences my perspective, those programs are basically for better or worse "no matter what"

I actually find it fun and rewarding to challenge myself to get a green on my habit cal each N day.

I LOVE S DAYS AND NWS DAYS ... I can eat whatever I want whenever I want and as much as I want. I very intentionally DO NOT post HOW MUCH I eat on my daily check-in ... why not? this is the NO S Diet ... who cares ... if I have gotten it onto one plate or in one bowl three times and it's an N DAY THAT IS BASICALLY ALL THAT IS ASKED OF ME ...

as far as my S days ... there was one I beleive I ate FIVE MONSTER TOLL HOUSE COOKIES ... and I could CARE LESS how many calories there were in them,

I am starting to wonder if people are UNINTENTIONALLY making NO S too much like a diet ... i have to eat this much fruit and vegetable and that much protien, i have to put 5 million restrictions on my S Days because I am not losing weight or i am gaining weight ....

i don't think the NO S DIET will work it's beautiful process if you try to make it like a "diet"

I think you have to really just "surrender" "let go" and ONE DAY AT A TIME just ENJOY the process ... sometimes it's one meal at a time,

so I am not sure it's "how many FAILURES can you have?"
it's really, i wanna play this game ... how many times can I rack up a WIN?

then you have to "let go" (usually of the scale ) and let your results take care of themselves in their own time,

of course it's easier said than done, but MY GOODNESS, the rewards are so bountiful it's simply CRAZY GOODNESS!

that being said, multiple and frequent failures probably mean you're just not very commited to the game

Blueskighs

[Kathleen]

The analogy to fidelity in marriage is meant to be provocative and over-the-top. What I see, though, in blogs that are left behind is that there often is one failure and then several failures and then silence. I know AA preaches that you are one drink away from being a drunk again. That sort of philosophy would make me very much on edge, which is why I came up with a buffer between failure and me. It's no longer one bite away from failure. Instead, it's three special days.

I appreciate getting feedback from successful No S'ers who have had occasional failures. My guess was that any failure eventually doomed the diet, but I see that that isn't true, at least for some people. My guess is that I'm one of those people for whom one failure does doom the diet. It opens a crack in the dam to allow more and more cracks.

Any other thoughts from other people? Thanks.

Kathleen

[blueskighs]

I know AA preaches that you are one drink away from being a drunk again.

i have learned that "one drink away from a drunk" does not in fact mean that you will get drunk the first time you have one drink, in fact you could, after a period of abstinence, go days, months, weeks and even years before sliding into the abyss of drunkeness ... being young when i sobered up in austin, tx amongst a group of similiar young people i watched many of my friends slide slowly down that slippery slope and not be very happy with what they found at the bottom.

Perhaps it is the irony of not expecting myself to be "perfect" that has allowed me to stay sober for 21 years and acheive a certain amount of success on NO S. My inner expectations are usually very manageable , when i quit drinking i was not even convinced i was an alcoholic, i just wanted to see what would happen when i quit drinking ... i thought it very strange when people who just entered "the program" looked down the road to years of sobriety and they hadn't even got thirty days under their belt, those were often the same ones who quickly slipped away.

By not expecting myself to be perfect and not worrying about my failures or how many i might allow myself i just focus on racking up the smallest measure of success that i can muster, i think that is how i acheived long term sobriety just day by day and that is how i approach No S, one little simple manageable day at a time and when that is too much i break it down to one simple, manageable meal. Ironically, when you look behind you, then there is a lot of little successes that add up over time

i think any habit you are working on changing simply requires a certain amount of vigilance until it becomes the "primary" habit, i.e. the one that KICKS IN when you are stressed, excited, uncomfortable, too comfortable, etc.... once you're new habit becomes the "primary" habit, i think all of these issues of "failure" etc, ultimately fade away,

another way to look at it is building a bridge ... if you get too many failures, you're bridge won't ever get finished and you won't ever get across the river, so maybe the real question is? Do you want to cross the river? the point also being the bridge won't build itself,

I find all these questions fascinating,

Blueskighs

[kccc]

Hi Kathleen,

First, just to contribute to "why blogs stop"... I'm sure there are a variety of reasons. Sometimes, it's failure. Other times, it's a positive reason. I stopped keeping my blog regularly because I don't need it anymore... and work/life is crazy, so anything I can trim from my life is good. It was very helpful to me when I did it, but now I mostly just do "negative tracking" - noting when I slip. Those entries are rare, thank goodness. Sometimes I do add an observation or two, and I'm generally still around.

On the failure... I consider myself a "recovering perfectionist," and No-S has been good for my recovery as long as I don't make extra-hard rules or "up" the expectations.

One "slip" is not FAILURE. Failure is ceasing to try.

Be gentle with yourself. Learn from mistakes, and move on. (And, for the record, someone else first posted "mark it and move on," but I appropriated it because it made so much SENSE to me. I'm sorry my memory is too poor to give credit where it's due!)

Kathleen, I strongly recommend the podcast on "Strictness." It's my absolute favorite - I've listened multiple times, and always take away something of value. I think it addresses your question better than I ever could.

Good luck, and best wishes.

[Kathleen]

OK, I am convinced that one failure does not doom the diet. I still have more questions on this diet. The Strictness podcast did help me to conclude that one failure is not a disaster. Here is a summary of the podcast:

How strict should you be?
If you are strict, your appetites learn fast that it is not worth the effort to test the boundaries. The stricter you are, the faster your habits learn. The most important time to be strict is at the beginning.

What should you be strict about?
Don't do anything that might possibly be interpreted as a violation. Draw a fence around the law. Overeating is complex. We need to build fences around that problem so we can build fences so that we know how to behave. Be strict about things that are very clear. Dumb habits learn simple rules faster. When you make exceptions, you sacrifice clarity.

Should there be punishment and restitution?
No. Be clear about what constitutes success and failure and be honest with yourself about whether you are successful or failure. If you try to make amends for messing up, you are really telling yourself that it is OK to fail because you can make it up later. You are opening up a line of credit. If you know there is no make up, you'll take your behavior much more seriously. When you fail, move on.

Kathleen

[gratefuldeb67]

Good luck

[howfunisthat]

Hi Kathleen!

I'm checking back in after my week in VT with my sisters. I had hoped to have a green & yellow week, but ended up with a couple red because we were too close to the Ben & Jerry's factory to make them green! HA! These were my first reds in 9 weeks...but that ice cream was delightful!

Red days do no mean you have failed. Red days are a caution. I want to succeed on this plan. I WILL succeed on this plan. The alternative is just not acceptable. The alternative is going back to the way I was eating....and THAT was miserable. It took me 48 years to get to where I am now. It will take me awhile to get to where I want to be. I'm seeing this as a journey....I travel one day at a time and a GREEN day takes me closer to where I want to be....a YELLOW day takes me there a bit slower...and a RED day stops me in my tracks....but the tracks are still there. Today I'm going to have a GREEN day....I'm getting back on my journey. Be kind to yourself, Kathreen...re-read your check-ins from your GREEN days and decide what you'll do today...not tomorrow...not in a week....decide for today. You can do this....you CAN.

janie

[Kathleen]

howfunisthat,
I feel surprisingly calm about this. Tonight, my husband bought pie for dinner. I said I can eat it in 5 1/2 hours but not now. It does seem silly -- and yet, I wore pants to a job interview today that didn't fit when I bought them two weeks ago. All I can speculate is that delaying overeating to the weekend dampens the amount you overeat on the weekend because your stomach cannot adjust to wide fluctuations in food.
Kathleen

[howfunisthat]

I think that's exactly it! And how cool is that?! When I was on vacation, I basically ate what I wanted to...and I wanted a LOT less than I would have eaten 2 months ago. I ate ice cream & loved it...I ate pizza and loved it...I ate SECONDS of pizza and loved it...but never in the whole week did I want to feel that horrible stuffed feeling I would get when my stomach was full of more than it should have been able to hold.

Congrats on wearing the slacks you didn't fit into before! What a wonderful feeling!

janie

[Kathleen]

OK, I've changed my mind about this. I think that the answer to this question is different for different people. Reinhard clearly is someone who can recover from a failure, learn from it, and move on. I am like that with exercising. I try to exercise on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. If it doesn't work out, I just move on. For example, last Monday, I had a higher priority -- finding a new washing machine after the motor burned out on the prior one, and the washing maching was filled with sand that had come out of the pocket of my seven year old. Washing machines don't tolerate handfuls of sand! Life happens!

For me, one failure day with a diet is like infidelity in marriage. (An over the top analogy, of course, but that's what comes to mind.) I suppose you could recover, but it is a big deal. Maybe it's because I have a track record of going from diet to diet, moving on to the next one after a failure in the prior one. Maybe it's because I cannot seem to form unconscious habits with eating unless there are no failures. Maybe it's because I engage in a constant debate of can I? should I? when I see food and have some sort of a diet to follow. I simply don't know.

I came up with the idea for getting an allocation of two Special Days per month because I thought about the countless times that diets have ended with one taste test at a grocery store. Since using the allocation method, I've been in grocery stores and been offered taste tests. It is easy to turn them down because I am not faced with the possible disaster of a failure which would send me over a cliff into overeating. Instead, I stand there and ask myself, "Is this taste test worth using one of my Special Days?" So far, the answer has not yet been "Yes".

I've only used one NWS so far, and that was planned two weeks in advance and discussed with the kids -- a trip to TCBY on a Wednesday when there are discounts.

Kathleen