Everyday Systems

wosnes, as I previously wrote: "My brother gave me some of his freshly baked goods, and I plan to indulge a little tomorrow". Every Sunday we have a family dinner for 8 or more people at my parents' house, and we typically have two or sometimes even three desserts to share, as my brother, my mother, and I are all bakers. The only saving grace is that we bake in smaller pans and preportion our cakes and pies, so one pan gives approx. 30-40 pieces. The guests take leftovers home, I bring some to my office on Monday, or we simply freeze them.

B: feta/spinach omelette, OJ, cafe au lait (with sugar), 12 almonds
L: 2 crepes with curd cheese, peach
D: pork roast/boiled potato/garlic olive oil/carrot salad, tomato soup/noodles, 3 plums

Thanks. I missed that before.

B: tomato hummus, bread, red bell pepper, 4 plums, 12 almonds
cafe au lait
L: 1/2 blueberry bread roll, 1/2 curd cheese bread roll, peach, 10 pretzel sticks, small cup of milk
D: 7 plum stuffed dumplings/breadcrumbs/butter/sugar, small bowl of cream of cucumber/noodle soup

B: 6 plum stuffed dumplings/breadcrumbs/butter/sugar, 12 almonds
L: 1/2 blueberry bread roll, 1/2 curd cheese bread roll, apple, 10 pretzel sticks, small cup of milk
milk (dinner is going to be late this afternoon)
D: cream of cauliflower soup/noodles, potato/olive oil/garlic/roasted chicken/braised betroot salad
Having houseguests means having lots of sweet stuff around, but I've been doing well in spite of numerous temptations presented right under my nose in the past few days. I suspect almonds have something to do with my decreased appetite for sugar. I've also been drinking tons of herbal teas like chamomile or ginger (along with my usual Indionesian green and rooibos), and incidentally found out that the smell of mint is a natural appetite suppressant. Interesting.
I bought some new clothes yesterday - pencil skirt and flimsy dressy blouse, something I'd never thought I'd be able to wear. I won't deny that vanity has been my main motivation when doing No S for these few years, and I won't apologize for that either. What's wrong with the joy of looking good, as long as it doesn't turn into unhealthy obsession? It might be not so noble but nonetheless effective motivator of behaviour change. In the words of Winston Churchill: "Vanity is the vice which promotes so many virtues".

B: hot dog sausage, beans in tomato sauce, tomato, slice of bread, 4 plums, 12 almonds, Earl Grey/milk/sugar
L: tomato hummus, slice of bread, red bell pepper, apple
milk
D: small bowl of potato soup, 3 meat-filled dumplings (I've been on a carb kick lately)

B: slice of onion bread, feta/tomato omelette, 12 almonds, cafe au lait
L: tomato hummus, slice of bread, red bell pepper, apple, 10 pretzel sticks, milk
fail: 10 sugar biscuits, more pretzel sticks
D: overloaded plate - rice pudding, half with cinnamon and sweet cream, half with a spoonful of homemade Nutella, slice of bread with feta and tomato
I managed to stop binging just before "the point of no return". That's quite an accomplishment in my case, but of course I'm disappointed with myself, as I've been doing so well this week!

Weekly weigh-in: 51 (theoretically I gained, but it's mostly water and waste weight from yesterday semi-binge)
B: 2 open faced sandwiches (smoked mackerel spread and kiełbasa), tomato, apple, 12 almonds, assortment of biscuits, some dark chocolate
D: meat patty, Asian cucumber salad, potato/olive oil, plum compote, a handful of boiled broad beans
I don't have much appetite for dessert. Supper is going to be very small - porridge sprinkled with cinnamon, walnuts, and drizzled with maple syrup sounds good. I'm toying with the idea of throwing a handful of dark chocolate chunks into it, but honestly, I don't need any sugar right now. Yesterday I was stressed, so my fail was an episode of emotional overeating - for the majority of the week I didn't miss sweets, though.
S: porridge/hazelnuts/maple syrup, dark chocolate
nibbles of homemade cake, cold milk

Imogen, it sounds like you are doing wonderfully! Great job. So have you committed then to Vanilla for sure? I am going to try that myself.

Oh, and to comment on the vanity weight, let's be honest, for many of us that is the main motivation. I know it is for me. I feel night and day different when I am thin vs chubby. It's affects me in so many ways that I couldn't have imagined, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. It's the little things like not having to dread getting dressed or feeling a roll around your waist. Going shopping and not feeling depressed. That outfit you bought sounds lovely

How was your trip? Were you enjoying yourself in Italy? I bet you did! Never been there myself (I'm enamored with the Balkans, and go there twice a year), but I can imagine why people love it so much. Is real Italian gelato really as good as they say?
Yes, I have recommitted to vanilla. S days are S days, but I'm trying to take it easy: eat dessert when the opportunity presents itself, otherwise just keep it similar to my N days. Two rules, though: no sugar on empty stomach, as it always ends up with a massive binge (and even if I can have one biscuit and stop at that, several hours later I find myself rummaging the cupboards and fridge!), and no seconds of dessert. So far so good.

B: ratatouille with sausage, slice of buckwheat bread (yum!!!), raspberry meringue cake, 12 almonds
D: onion soup/croutons, steamed chicken breast/mustard-peach sauce/millet, beetroot salad, 2 pieces raspberry meringue cake (seconds, grr!)
S: 2 open faced smoked mackerel sandwiches, tomato, dark chocolate, spoonful of homemade Nutella

The trip was magnificent, thank you for asking. As for gelato, I never really ate it much before so hard to compare, but I can say it was EVERYWHERE in Italy! I personally found it *too* sweet, but I actually found every dessert too sweet (like tiramisu, canoli etc) I think that might be a pregnancy side effect. But there were soooo many flavours that I had to try ...extra dark chocolate, vanilla, white chocolate, pistachio, nut with nutella, grape, mango...lol...I could keep going. Very cool.

I like your plan. I think I need to adopt a similar approach as my issues coincide exactly with yours.

B: open faced smoked cod sandwich, tomato, 12 almonds
L: leftover ratatouille with sausage, slice of bread, 2 plums, cheesecake, sugar biscuit, raspberry torte (coworker's birthday - special occasion + the sweets were INSANELY delicious + partaking seemed like a perfectly normal thing to do)
D: onion soup/millet, noodles/chicken in peach-mustard sauce, beetroot salad

B: noodles/milk, 12 almonds
L: sausage sandwich, tomato, nectarine
lots of pretzel sticks, sugar biscuit
D: apple noodle casserole (plus seconds)

Imogen,
I am going to copy your mod, no seconds of dessert. Thanks. I needed that!
Kat

I'm kinda fed up with posting my daily meals here, so from now on I'm going to stick with occasional food/No S musings.

Totally hear you, I was thinking the same thing.

RED. I've noticed I have problems sticking to No S when my meals lack nutrients - plenty of fiber, protein, and fruit to add some sweetness.

I had guests over for almost a week - they left just this morning. Oh man, I fell off the wagon BIG TIME! I didn't snack much, but sweets were my demise. Even this morning I polished off a small mountain of pralines... need to wipe the slate clean and start over! Maintenance at 51 will most certainly be a huge success.

Houseguests fall into the same category as vacations, I think -- just enjoy them, finish off the pralines, and then get back on the wagon!

Well said JW!

I've written off today as "sick day" - I'm terribly sleep deprived, sugar-drugged, and craving basically any healthy food I can lay my hands on. I've been snacking on nuts, spoonfuls of peanut butter, and sunflower seeds all day, and I guess the trend will continue. Hopefully I'll get a brisk walk in the evening, and start clean tomorrow.

Totally understandable. Wise decision. Don't berate yourself, smart to go with the sick day.

I feel like I've taken a dozen steps back, but the only thing that counts right now is getting back on track and being as strict as possible on N days.
I've caught a nasty little cold which makes me want to crawl under the blankets and spend the rest of the week curled up in a little ball. I need to take it easy for a few days, perhaps skip my brisk walk-at-home routine in favour of some yoga or outdoor walking.
Gotta get up and get going.

Imogen Morley wrote: I've caught a nasty little cold which makes me want to crawl under the blankets and spend the rest of the week curled up in a little ball. I need to take it easy for a few days, perhaps skip my brisk walk-at-home routine in favour of some yoga or outdoor walking.
Gotta get up and get going.

Sounds like you need chicken soup!

Wosnes, you're spot on about the soup! Just made a huge pot of red lentil dhal (technically not a soup, but it's my favourite comfort food). Right now I'm enjoying a glass of hot pepsi with lemon juice and grated ginger - weird, but oh so tasty combination my Korean friend recommended for colds. Sugar/caffeine boost was exactly what I needed.

Feel better, Imogen! That hot pepsi thing sounds so weird but whatever helps! And I think I'll try that next time I'm sick (but with Coca Cola because I'm a loyal Coke drinker.)

Still not feeling well. I indulged my craving this morning (mmm, French cruller!), but kept the rest of the day clean. I'm toying with the idea of splitting my S days (taking Wednesday and Sunday instead of the typical combo).

Old habits die hard. So far I've had a really idiotic S day, mostly because I allowed myself to snack on the run instead of slowly enjoying my treats after proper meals. Not happy about it, of course, so I'm going to take a walk in the afternoon.

Oh dear. What a mess! I've been permasnacking all weekend BUT I moved a lot. Can't wait for Monday!
I think daily check-ins, though a bit tiresome at times, were enormously beneficial, and it's worth giving it another shot. Posting here keeps me honest.
Starting tomorrow: vanilla No S, moderate plates, on S days no solitary snacking, mindful&slow eating, and no seconds of dessert.

Doing OK so far. I've only had two meals today, because I woke up SO late (9 AM!), and I think I'm going to leave it at that. If I get really hungry in the evening, there's always milk.
EDIT: snacky monster has reared its ugly head, and all I could hear was the siren's call from the tub of leftover mascarpone. I flushed its contents down the sink - desperate times call for desperate measures, right? I did snack a bit after my supper (cottage cheese, kielbasa, veggies), and I blame carb-heavy breakfast. I needed protein! Tomorrow I'm going to have scrambled eggs and broccoli for breakfast.
Let's agree that Monday has been a "controlled failure"

Imogen Morley wrote: I think daily check-ins, though a bit tiresome at times, were enormously beneficial, and it's worth giving it another shot. Posting here keeps me honest.

I know what you mean. I also find reading other people's check ins is very inspiring and helps me to apply advice given to them to my own situation.

I have to work on the slow eating myself.

B: scrambled eggs, peach, slice of bread/butter
D: barley/vegetable soup
S: Greek yogurt/homemade cherry preserves/walnuts, apple
hot cocoa

B: slice of bread with ham/camembert, 1/2 tomato, tangerine, 1/2 cup chocolate pudding
L: barley/veggie soup, 4 biscuits
D: turkey katsu, steamed rice, apple
biscuit

B: fried rice/egg/broccoli, 4 plums, teaspoon of pb
L: frozen banana/cocoa/milk smoothie, 12 almonds
D: leftover turkey katsu, broccoli salad, mashed potatoes/butter, 3 digestive biscuits, 3 spekulaas biscuits

I try to focus on essentials: eating three square meals, no snacking, no seconds. If I get a hankering for something sweet, I have it - but only after a meal, and only one serving. It's almost like "controlled failure" - technically, I shouldn't eat desserts on weekdays, but sometimes the craving is SO strong it seems impossible to just ignore it, and giving in leads to binging and WTH effect. By allowing sweets when I really, soulfully want them, and at the same time being comically strict about just one rule - no snacking - I achieve 80% compliance. Being perfect all the time is not a realistic goal for me... or anyone, if you ask me.

Imogen, I have to say I'm in complete agreement on that. I was able to maintain a slim weight I was very happy with, while just about never doing it perfectly. I can probably count on two hands how many Vanilla days I've had, seriously. But it obviously didn't matter, rules are just rules, in the end its the lowered calories that converts our bodies right? Sometimes we have to let good enough be good enough.

Amen to that Every single time I overeat, have seconds or just a wild S day, I come up with new rules, and I imagine I'll be perfect from now on, absolutely perfect - 100% compliance! Always! But that kind of thinking leads to binging. Being good enough is the new perfect

B: 3 slices of baguette with butter and smoked mackerel, tomato, 3 spekulaas biscuits
D: potatoes, butter, yellow string beans in sour cream sauce, 4 spekulaas biscuits, French cruller, teaspoon of pb
S: slice of bread with smoked mackerel, 1/2 tomato, 4 biscuits

One more tweak: because the earlier in the day I taste sweets, the more of them I eat, I think it's not unreasonable to hold off any desserts until dinner.

B: poppyseed porridge (plus a pat of butter to make it more filling)

I'm still maintaning at 51, which is nice... but a month ago I weighed 50. Turns out that vanilla/not keeping eye on calorie intake is not the best choice for me. I have a tendency to overfill my plates, particularly on days when I walk a lot. Random sweets don't make it any easier either...

It seems that the longer I do it, the harder it gets, but it's entirely my own fault. After I reached my "perfect weight", I've started slacking - a bite here and there, "oh, I've lost so much weight, I can have this or that, no big deal", "I've lost so much weight, I can have two idiotic S-days in a row", and so on. Rules became guidelines, habit went down the toilet - and I used to be VERY strict about my N-days, pre-plating everything, no stacking, not even a crumb between meals... Now I'm stuck with one extra kilogram. Doesn't sound THAT bad, but I know that before long it will start to multiply!
I don't want to count calories or weigh things like I used to at some point. Food journaling doesn't sound very appealing either. I KNOW that when I'm really, comically strict about N-days, everything falls into place, but weekday strictness is very often followed by weekend overindulgence (well, overindulgence I don't really enjoy!). I'm constantly wrestling with my thoughts. I believe, deep in my heart, that super strict vanilla is the only way, though on superficial level I often rebel against its rigidity. It's like a tough, but loving parent, protecting me from myself.
Now I won't have much time to write down my meals here, but I'll do my best to post a quick update every evening. I really, really, really want it to work the way it's supposed to work - with three moderate plates a day, no sweets, no snacking, no seconds, except for days that start with S.
And since we're talking about S-days... how do I define a special day?
My impression is that S-day eating = celebratory eating, and what if you don't have anything to celebrate? I don't think that my weekends are special enough to qualify as full-blown S-days. Besides the usual big family dinner on Sunday (which falls under "having guests" category, and also "celebratory eating"), I stick to routines - running errands, learning too many languages at the same time, cleaning, stressing over my job. I rarely get together with friends on weekends - most of them go back to their respective hometowns after finishing the workweek. And because there's almost nothing to let me call my weekends truly special... why should I have treats then? Is it possible that the huge amounts of sugar I inhale on Saturdays and Sundays are exactly a consolation prize for my mediocre weekends - boredom eating? The obvious solution: plan something fun for my weekends, social or solitary activities I enjoy.
Also, I'd like to keep up with all the previous good ideas: like letting sweets find their way to me, not the other way around, and not having seconds of dessert, and buying only single/smallest possible servings. I guess there will be occasions when I might relax about "no snacking rule", though.
Regarding NWS days - birthdays, namedays etc. of my family members I DO consider special enough. But coworker's? Nah.
Wow, I didn't expect it to become so long! Looking forward to my N-days now. Keep your fingers crossed!

Hey girl I totally hear you. We're in this together. I am looking forward to my N days this week too! Funny you mentioned that. It's like a challenge. Please update as I will be checking up on you

Lowercase/uppercase S-days, anyone? It's a "Reinhard approved" mod, and sounds sensible... 1 S-event per "ordinary" S-day, and on really special S-days (like your birthday, and big holidays) you're free to do anything you want. In my case that would mean having dessert after dinner on Saturday and Sunday. We'll see, I might give it a shot.

Yup, after yesterday's fiasco and not being hungry for a lovely dinner, I realized I'll have to keep up some form of moderation during the day or I suffer.

So far the day has been as green as fresh grass Mondays are always a breeze, though, Tuesdays and Wednesdays - much much harder!
B: 2 zucchini/barley fritters, tzatziki sauce, 30 g camembert, 1:1 tea with evaporated milk
L: 60 g camembert, red pepper, tangerine, slice of bread
D: chicken cutlet, slice of bread, onion/tomato salad, banana (I had a hankering for something sweet)
hot milk

B: tin of sprats in tomato sauce, 2 slices of bread/butter
L: barley/chicken/broccoli/black olives salad, apple (I ADORE barley)
D: buttered noodles with quark, sprinkle of sugar
hot milk -> even better than cold milk if it comes to satisfying hunger!

Dinner plate was a tad bit overloaded, and I didn't eat enough vegetables, but otherwise I've been doing well. The real challenge, I suppose, will be Saturday morning, with the tempting voice at the back of my mind whispering: "You can eat whatever you want, and how much you want!". I must remember that what I want is a healthy relationship with food, and jeans which are not uncomfortably tight on Monday.

You are doing so well! Let's make sure this week continues this way

B: 3 slices homemade pate, slice of bread/butter, tomato
cafe au lait
L: barley/smoked salmon/spinach/black olive salad, peach
D: 1/2 baked trout, potatoes, braised beetroot salad, sauerkraut, 6 plums
slice of homemade pate, 12 almonds (I was TERRIBLY hungry)

B: potato/trout/black olive/broccoli salad with horseradish
L: a bit problematic. I had Napoleon pastry, glass of milk, and some almonds. At least the damage was contained.
20 pretzel sticks
D: rice/chicken/mixed vegetables
tablespoon of peanut butter
I snacked in the evening, too Stress eating, grrr!

B: savouriy French toast, tomato
cafe au lait
L: pasta/chicken/mixed veg salad, pear, 3 squares of chocolate (gift)
2 squares of chocolate (gift)

50.4

It's past noon here where I live, and I've already snacked between breakfast and lunch, just because I could, and had a pastry and a single-serving packet of biscuits I don't even like that much. Trying to minimize the damage by moving a lot (enthusiastic housecleaning!).
The rest of the day didn't really go as I planned. Carb-only meals have made me lethargic and lightheaded. And it's pizza night here... I'm far better off having protein-based breakfast any day of the week, N-day or not, and staying away from sugar in the morning, otherwise my energy levels drop so low that I can barely keep myself awake.

Hey Imogen, I am the same way with carbs. Your weight sounds amazingly stable and I really hope I can do the same after the baby. It seems now that you are at your perfect weight, you don't have much trouble maintaining around there. You must feel so proud of yourself, I know I would!!!

B: steamed cod/mixed veggies, slice of bread
cafe au lait
D: rice/smoked salmon/spinach/black olive salad (with mayo), apple

Yesterday was a success, but today I'm sick S-day, then. I know I will have to resort to chocolate later in the day...
EDIT: and so I did. Cup of chocolate pudding, 4 Lindt truffles, 4 chocolate-covered biscuits, and a small supper (I needed something decidedly salty). Some almonds, too. Not going to feel guilty about it this time, but I have to say I can't wait for tomorrow. No snacking makes me feel... French

B: cottage cheese, tomato, 1/2 graham roll, cafe au lait
L: whole wheat pasta/quark/sugar, apple, some pretzel sticks
more pretzel sticks...
Habit is such a powerful thing! I used to ignore pretzel sticks for YEARS (thought they were horrible), yet when I had some when I was stressed/bored at work, where they're in constant supply... No pretzel sticks for me, thank you. The habit got out of hand.
I failed spectacularly this afternoon. I need to put more thought into planning/preparing my meals - have enough veggies, some fruit, LOTS of protein, and healthy fats. It's especially crucial at breakfast. Good, wholesome breakfast sets me up for a good day.
Off to make some hummus and chop bell pepper for my lunch.

B: 2 hot dog sausages, 1/2 large tomato, ketchup, mustard, slice of bread, 12 almonds

Hang in there Imogen! Make sure you get lotsa yummy satisfying food for your meals so you're not feeling deprived between meals.

Thanks for stopping by and for the reminder Yes, the more thought I put into preparing and planning my meals, the more satisfied they make me.

I'm going to take a break from S-days for a while, and try a different approach: having sweets when I really crave them (eating for pleasure), but only after proper meals ("no snacks") and only one serving at a time ("no seconds").
The key to sticking with it long-term is, I feel, forgiveness. For years I've been convinced that naturally thin people NEVER EVER overeat, which is utter BS. They do, though not as often as dieters. I know I stuff myself silly, even when I'm already feeling uncomfortably full, because "OMG OMG, this is my last chance!". People who don't have restriction issues would just stop eating the moment their belt started to cut into their waist, and leave that super yummy food for later. Whenever I overeat I criticize myself, and then, to fix the feeling of guilt, I try to cheer myself up with more food. Terribly unproductive. But EVERYONE overeats from time to time. It shouldn't be such a big deal.

It's been a good day. Three yummy meals (leftovers tomorrow!), no snacks, lots of green/herbal teas, and cafe au lait early in the afternoon. I wasn't tempted by the jar of nutella in the cupboard, knowing I can have some if I really want it.
I've had some major slip ups this week, plus I haven't moved as much as usual, so I'm a little bit apprehensive about weighing tomorrow.

Totally agree Imogen. My mother in law is one of those naturally thin people. She seems to eat pretty light most of the time but when we go out to dinner., she eats very heartily and thoroughly seems to enjoy her meal. Occasionally the food tastes so good that she'll eat to the point of being stuffed. She does t worry about it though.


I like Ellyn Satter's definition of normal eating:
"Normal eating is going to the table hungry and eating until you are satisfied. It is being able to choose food you like and eat it and truly get enough of it—not just stop eating because you think you should. Normal eating is being able to give some thought to your food selection so you get nutritious food, but not being so wary and restrictive that you miss out on enjoyable food. Normal eating is giving yourself permission to eat sometimes because you are happy, sad or bored, or just because it feels good. Normal eating is mostly three meals a day, or four or five, or it can be choosing to munch along the way. It is leaving some cookies on the plate because you know you can have some again tomorrow, or it is eating more now because they taste so wonderful. Normal eating is overeating at times, feeling stuffed and uncomfortable. And it can be undereating at times and wishing you had more. Normal eating is trusting your body to make up for your mistakes in eating. Normal eating takes up some of your time and attention, but keeps its place as only one important area of your life."

Although most of us are too damaged (from years of starvation/binging) but w NoS we can learn to replicate normal eating pretty closely.

I do know and love that quote... however, I fear that years of disordered eating have made it impossible for me to become a normal eater, and I'm not even sure if I was one in the first place!
I have problems with S-days, and I have problems with mindful eating, too. S-days reinforce binge mentality that I have, and mindful eating uses up a lot of valuable mental resources, up to the point when I simply can't maintain that level of awareness any longer, and I binge.
The middle road I took some time ago was to have three pre-scheduled desserts a week. It worked fine for a while - I can't remember what made me tamper with the rules again and go back to vanilla... probably some spectacular binge

Yesterday was pretty bad I binged on random crap, basically anything sweet I could find in the cupboards - certainly not my favourites. So today I followed Reinhard's advice to take care of my appetite, and bought a fresh chocolate chip biscuit from Marks&Spencer bakery, also splurged on a packet of Scottish shortbread. The biscuit was indescribably GOOD, with crunchy edges, chewy middle, and lots of chocolate chunks. Paired with a glass of cold milk... food of the gods!
So far I haven't been tempted to binge. In two hours there's going to be a big family meal (two courses plus dessert). I usually skip my third Sunday meal afterwards. We'll see how that goes. I keep reminding myself that pleasure derived from eating illustrates a downward curve: more bites do not equal more satisfaction - quite the opposite.

But it was an S day, and you are pretty much maintaining your weight, aren't you, Imogen? Your body has learned that it doesn't like to binge, and your instincts are just a little slower catching up with it, that's all. I LOVE Scottish shortbread -- I am feeling a little envious of that right now! Happy Sunday --

Oops -- just noticed you are taking a break from S days, Imogen. I was still on the Vanilla train in my comment! You have been doing this for a long time and have earned some tweaks, but I am better off with clear cut heaven or hell scenarios, at least in these early months.

The only problem is, I'm not sure what I'm doing.
Having three desserts a week worked for a month or two, then I dropped it. And Sundays were over the top even then. What truly worked for longer than several weeks was combining No S with calorie counting/food journaling, which I abandoned. RANT: sometimes I feel bad/guilty/inferior reading posts on the general forum which critize calorie counting. It's almost like subtle pressure to drop this practice. There are times when I give it up and think I can maintain without watching my calorie intake, but inevitably, I gain two or three pounds. VANILLA WITHOUT CALORIE COUNTING DOESN'T WORK FOR ME. I'm a tiny person, and can't load as much on my plate as bigger people can if I want to be slim, but I surely don't have any problems eating the same portions (which fit on a single plate!) as my marathon-running brother or tall, well-built fiance. I know calorie counts of all the foods I regularly eat, and I don't find the whole process tedious - I look at my plate, do quick mental calculation, and add/subtract to stay within my chosen range. It takes three minutes of my day, but saves me A TON of negative feelings when I step on a scale.
Oof. So much capslock in one post. But I really am oversensitive about the whole issue. My point is, I need to get back to what works for me even if people here won't believe it does (26 pounds down since 2010, hello!). Yeah, sure, I'll overeat even if I count my calories. I'll have crazy S-days. Just not as many. Just not as often.
My personal challenge: do vanilla + calorie counting + food journaling until October 12th, two full weeks.

You know, Bright Angel says the same, so you're not alone here! Do what works for you. I've never done calorie counting myself (amazing admission ) so it would be cumbersome for me and maybe even a reason to chuck it. But there was a time when I could tell you the carb values of everything on my plate -- and I stuck faithfully and successfully with that for several years. In the end, it wasn't the accounting that got me, I was just starving for potatoes and peas -- not even sweets! So No S is a more viable solution for me. But if noticed my weight creeping up on No S, I might get a little stricter with the starches, too. It's just a structure of moderation -- what and how much we eat is up to us, right?

Imogen, I really do understand what you mean about feeling that pressure. So many people have bad experiences counting calories and because the whole premise of No S is supposed to take that away, most people tend to WANT to get away from that. But that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form you should feel bad about it. I am very similar to you and feel that I will probably go back to that at some point. It helps me understand how much I really need. We are totally allowed to do a "Grey No-S" instead of Vanilla. I wholeheartedly support your calorie counting efforts and will check up on how you're doing!!!

Imogen I'm so sorry you are feeling unsupported, but definitely you have to do what works for you.

I don't count calories but occasionally I'll check calorie content of items. If I'm between two things that seem equally appealing then I'll have the one w less calories (esp if it's significantly lower). On the other hand, if I'm really craving something specific than I'm going to go ahead and have it as long as it fits on my plate.


Nothing inherently wrong w counting calories. I think some of us are just burnt out on it but that doesn't mean it's not a good tool for you! There's no magic formula to this weight management/disordered eating stuff! In the end, we all just have to do what keeps us sane.

Thank you for bringing this up btw it's important for us to realize just because something works wonders for us, doesn't mean it's going to work for someone else.

*hugs* linda

Thank you all for the support! It means a lot, especially after such a wretched weekend My goal is to combine vanilla No S with calorie counting - 1500/N-day, 2000/S-day. The average would be about 1650/week, which is a perfect range for me.
I think I need rules for S-days as well, as for the last three years I've been abusing my weekend freedom. I'll have some dessert after lunch and dinner, and do whatever it takes to stop weekend snacking. Keeping my N-days as strict as possible is another priority.

B: ham/tomato omelette, 12 almonds
L: turkey sausage, mixed veggie salad with a bit of mayo

That sounds like an excellent plan! Just a question on how you handle foods you don't know the calorie content of. This always gets me a little rattled. Say, for example, you are eating out and the restaurant has no nutrition info on their website, or you get a dessert from a bakery...do you just guess?

I'd just guesstimate or look it up on Google later, if I'm terribly curious (doesn't happen often).
Well, I've already had a very small piece of apple pie (Sunday leftovers) and 4 squares of artisan chocolate my colleague brought from business trip to Prague - both after dinner. I'm not proud of myself, but on the other hand... I tried to keep in mind the research I mentioned somewhere on the forum before - how you don't need a huge portion to feel satisfied, the key is to have a couple of bites and just wait. Of course I wanted more chocolate after that first taste, but went to do some housework, and soon forgot about my craving. Besides, if I had indulged later on, that would have been a snack, and snacking is way worse for me than sweets after meals. That was a fail and a success at the same time.
I just can't believe that you, Sinnie, and other posters put up with my indecisiveness and are still so nice and supportive! This frustrating period of fine-tuning No S is driving me insane.

haha Imogen, trust me, put up with YOUR indecisiveness, I have far more decisive issues Perhaps that's why I really follow your progress, because I see so much of myself in your posts.
By the way, I did the exact same thing after dinner. But, no binges here. It's okay. Maybe not perfect or ideal, but as you said, way better to have sweets after dinner than snack.

B: Hungarian lecso, 2 frankfurters, slice of bread
L: mixed veggie salad with mayo, chicken patty, slice of bread, apple, 1 square of white chocolate
2 sugar biscuits, a couple of sips of milk, 2 squares of chocolate
D: buckwheat groats, chicken meatball, tomato/onion salad, 2 squares of chocolate

"No snacking" is going to be my mantra in the upcoming weeks.
I'm pissed off at myself for binging so much last weekend. When I put on my skinny jeans yesterday, my calf could barely fit into the leg. Grrr. I'm bloated, heavy, lethargic. But I've been incorporating some sweets into my meals to keep from restricting/binging later, and it seems to be working for now. I'm far from announcing success, though.
After a conversation with my fiance, who is wonderfully, amazingly supportive when it comes to my food struggles, I've come to think of my weekend binging as just another bad habit I need to replace with a healthier one. Before No S I used to binge almost every day, and eat multiple, huge snacks several times a day. That habit got replaced with No S strictness on weekdays, but unfortunately, I never really stopped binging, I just reduced it to two days a week. Now I'm reluctantly trying to get a new habit ingrained: have some sweets when I want them, just watch my portions. Instead of a sleeve of biscuits whenever I feel like it, I can have one or two after a meal. Yes, it is HARD. Yes, sometimes it's driving me crazy. But I didn't just magically switch to having three square meals, I had to white-knuckle it for a good few months. It's the same with moderation - I have to learn it, repeat the new behaviour, fake it till I become it. S-days and weekday deprivation don't sound moderate to me right now.

B: 1/2 tub of cottage cheese, 1/2 avocado, slice of bread, mug of hot cocoa
L: whole wheat pasta/mozzarella/tomato salad, red grapes, 1 sugar biscuit, 2 squares of white chocolate
5 pretzel sticks
D: quinoa, 2 chicken meatballs, Asian carrot salad, grape jelly with a dollop of cream

I remember when I really started trying at the three meals thing, and I thought I was going to kill someone. At the time DH coined it "breaking the addiction". It was like I was addicted to snack/food between meals to keep my blood sugar under control. Funny though, it did pass, and I no longer get so moody and hellbent on eating between meals, even though I mess up a lot. It's true that you just have to white knuckle it for awhile. I am under the same mindset in that the binging can't just be reduced - I want it eliminated too. My skinny friends who easily stay that way don't go through cycles of binging and eating normally. They just always eat properly and seem to have less-healthy things once in awhile where reasonable. I want to be that too.

B: mozzarella panini, tomato, 12 almonds
L: 1/2 tub cottage cheese, 1/2 avocado, slice of bread, 10 pretzel sticks, apple, 2 squares of white chocolate
10 pretzel sticks (my nemesis!)
D: rice/pumpkin/mushroom casserole, spoonful of pb
tea with lemon and honey

I kinda like it. I eat three tasty meals a day, which is plenty for me. Sometimes I snack, but I want to cut it out completely. It ruins my appetite! Very limited portions of sweet things every day make me feel... content. Serene. Stopping at two squares of chocolate was a bit easier today than it was yesterday. I plan to have a scoop of ice cream tomorrow after work. It's sort of ridiculous, because the weather here has been unusually cold and windy, but I really, really want it.

10 pretzel sticks is not bad. I think you're doing great!! Keep plugging away!

Linda

B: milk/pumpkin/dumpling soup, vanilla quark, 12 almonds
L: leftover casserole, red grapes, 10 pretzel sticks
more pretzel sticks -> I keep munching on them when I'm bored/anxious at work

After dinner, at about 7 PM, I ate almonds, yogurt, tinned sprats, some kielbasa, and a bit of porridge. It wasn't a binge - just my body screaming "Give me some protein, NOW!". I had carb-heavy breakfast and lunch, and I snacked on those damn pretzels all afternoon - the end was predictable. I feel neutral about it, though, just a clear lesson to be learned. I'll forever be in the team "eggs". Porridge can be my supper or dinner, but never breakfast.

S-day habit is so ingrained that I decided to indulge in a pastry my mother brought me (after lunch). Otherwise, I had a decent, protein-filled breakfast, then waited 7 hours for lunch which I knew was going to be absolutely divine. Porridge will be my dinner.
EDIT: And porridge it was, with a small piece of cake (we're having guest over tonight). I spent the whole afternoon chasing after my nephew - so much fun!

Yay, eggs for breakfast! Like you, when I try anything else, I am starving a few hours later. But I love breakfast foods for dinner, too -- and you can eat anything for any meal, really. In Germany, people used to have sausage and cheese for breakfast and it didn't seem strange at all after a while.

I wish all my S-days were as calm as yesterday! I didn't snack at all, had some sweets whenever someone offered them to me, but otherwise I didn't look for any.
My main problem on S-days is eating just because it's there. I stuff myself silly with things I don't even like that much, and take every opportunity to grab something sugary, whether I crave it or not.
EDIT: for the briefest moment I thought about giving vanilla one more shot... and I binged. It makes me think that vanilla No S and its rigidity were fine when I had lots of weight to lose, but now, when it's just fine-tuning and learning to eat in a way that makes me feel best physically and mentally - it's a really bad idea. The moment I tell myself I can't have something, even for a few days, I binge like no tomorrow. So nothing is off-limits.

I've been doing fine for the last two days. After Sunday binge I vowed to never restrict sweets again, not even in the form of S-days. Yesterday was sugar-free, and today I had a couple of squares of dark chocolate after protein-loaded breakfast. I'm trying to stay as strict as possible about no snacking, though, and watching my portion sizes.
EDIT: I did snack, and I did so standing, over the stove (2 mini muffins I baked myself). Not too happy about it, but it was just a detour. Time to move on. I also had some cake my boss brought in to the office, and a scoop of ice cream while walking with mom. Sugar-filled days like these do happen sometimes.

I had a big breakfast of beans and sausage, followed by 3 mini muffins. Lunch is going to be the usual grain-based salad, and for dinner I'll probably cook potato/chicken casserole.

Yesterday was sugar-free. In order to avoid "eating because it's there", I put the jar of Nutella at the very back of the least used cupboard in the kitchen, and moved the tub of vanilla pudding to the highest shelf in the fridge. Exposing myself to constant temptation would be just stupid.
My boss brought in more sweets today, and he doesn't accept refusal

Aaaaaand... just as every single one of you has probably foreseen, I'm returning to the vanilla flock.
I seem to be able to understand only extremes: rigidity of weekday restraint on one side, and complete wild abandon on weekends. And maybe that's what moderation really is for me. Time to get back to HabitCal, too: green for perfect compliance, yellow for near misses, red for complete failure, blank for S-days.

Imogen Morley wrote:Aaaaaand... just as every single one of you has probably foreseen, I'm returning to the vanilla flock.
I seem to be able to understand only extremes: rigidity of weekday restraint on one side, and complete wild abandon on weekends. And maybe that's what moderation really is for me. Time to get back to HabitCal, too: green for perfect compliance, yellow for near misses, red for complete failure, blank for S-days.

You are funny, Imogen.
I do something that many NoSers don't do: I weigh myself a lot. And yes, we all just do what works.

I am curious about your journey because I am small too (short, that is, not skinny!) but Vanilla NoS seems to be helping me lose slowly (2-3 pounds in 2 months). I don't expect to ever be skinny, I just would like to be in a healthy BMI. I am going to go read some more of your posts and get educated on ya'.

Hi there. Well, I have lost all the weight I wanted to lose, including some "vanity pounds", so my struggle is more about establishing firm, lifelong habits (=NoS) than reaching some goal weight. Nevertheless, I hope you'll find something useful in my rants/whining, as long as you can put up with my indecisiveness Prepare to see me changing my mind (on/off vanilla) at least once a week!

So Imogen--you've had amazing success on NoS! Wow! And you are way tiny now!! 110? Really? I'm 5'2'' and would be dumbfounded to get down to 120 (and have no expectation of that, actually....125 is probably my dream weight). So my question is: did Vanilla NoS get you down to 110 (with exercise, of course) or was it the calorie-counting or other mods?

BTW, my main exercise is walking to/from work, too! I love it because I have to say, "NO EXCEPTIONS". If there is a blizzard, I am still walking to work!

Great to see you post again Imogen And if you decide to go back to a mod tomorrow, that's totally cool with me From one indecisive gal to the next...

automatedeating wrote:So Imogen--you've had amazing success on NoS! Wow! And you are way tiny now!! 110? Really? I'm 5'2'' and would be dumbfounded to get down to 120 (and have no expectation of that, actually....125 is probably my dream weight). So my question is: did Vanilla NoS get you down to 110 (with exercise, of course) or was it the calorie-counting or other mods?

BTW, my main exercise is walking to/from work, too! I love it because I have to say, "NO EXCEPTIONS". If there is a blizzard, I am still walking to work!

My tampering with NoS has started to show on a scale - 112 now. Still pretty cool, but the lack of structure is positively killing me. Answering your question: I reached 110 thanks to very strict plating habit, general NoS, and eating three pre-scheduled desserts a week (S-days were too much to handle at some point). For the last 1,5 years I've also been exercising every single day, aiming at 80 minutes of physical activity (purposeful walking and/or Leslie Sansone 2-mile Walk At Home video). I keep an eye on my calories, too, mostly in the form of "portion control" rather than actual counting or weighing.

Sinnie, I'm glad I'm back. As some cleverer poster said, my appetite is a rebellious toddler, and it craves structure and clear-cut rules!

B: smoked salmon/spinach omelette, cafe au lait, 12 almonds
L: salmon spread sandwich, red pepper, apple
D: bowl of red lentil stew, bread roll, big dollop of Greek yogurt, melon chunks

B: slice of bread/pb/jam, milk, almonds

My NoS compliance since Tuesday (when I decided for the upteenth time that it's time to reboot) has been disappointing: only one green day, two yellows (near misses), idiotic Saturday which I count as red.
I have a nasty habit of overeating on weekends: lots of unstructured time (I thrive on routine), sometimes boredom, and life has been very hectic lately, leaving little time to relax. My goal for today is to keep weekday meal structure, allow desserts after meals but with no seconds. Goal for the week: perfect compliance. I'm very curious about my next weigh-in.
EDIT: idiotic Sunday. Boo! Well, I'm starting to think that I unconsciously put myself under subtle pressure to eat less on S-days, and that sets me up to a binge. Next weekend I'm just going to let it go, and eat whatever, whenever I want, without any expectations nor applying common sense to the way I eat. Piling up rules upon rules doesn't agree with me. I can stand, and ever appreciate, the rigidity of N-days, but having more rules to follow on weekends always ends badly. I need to believe that I really CAN eat whatever and whenever I want on S-days, without guilt, even if I make myself physically sick in the process. I really need to believe it's OK, that I can't fail on S-days.
Again, my goal is to have a neat string of green days under my belt by Saturday. As for S-days... "Take care of the N Days, and the other days take care of themselves".

B: savoury French toast, tomato, almonds
L: bread roll/chicken/mayo, tomato, apple
D: cream of mushroom soup, potato, chicken cutlet, coleslaw, melon

B: 2 slices of bread/butter/cream cheese, hot cocoa
L: ham sandwich, tomato, apple
D: broth/dumplings, chicken katsu/potato/spicy carrot salad

B: 2 slices of bread/butter/cream cheese, hot cocoa, 12 almonds
L: tuna salad, apple

Writing down my meals helps me stay grounded and focused on my goal. I plan to continue that as long as possible/convenient, even on my S-days. Reinhard is absolutely right - just the simple act of sharing my binge-fests with the world may be enough to reduce or maybe eliminate them.

On Saturday I was a complete idiot, but Sunday went pretty okay. Wish all my S-days looked similar! It's funny how distracted eating HELPS me eat less. Yeah, I said that. When I read something/surf the web during meals (watching TV is a little trickier!), I tend to eat less, and feel satisfied sooner. Why? I'm not doing those two things simultaneously, but rather alternate between them, so I naturally slow down. And my hands are too busy for fast eating! Mindful eating makes me bored out of my skull, I totally hate that, so I rush, rush, rush - the sooner I finish my meal, the sooner I can move on to doing other, more interesting things. So whenever I had my treat on Sunday, I also made sure I had some reading material/laptop at hand. Surprisingly, it worked great! A cup of hot tea on the side is a good idea, too.

I've been losing slowly on vanilla - 0.5 pound a week. Yay! My S-days are as idiotic as ever, but I'm not going to make any conscious effort and introduce any mods. What really counts is perfect compliance on N-days.

It's the N compliance that is giving you that steady (slow) downward trend -- S days are just S days! Good to see you back!

Need to go back to "no seconds of dessert" rule on weekends, and work hard to have three meals per day, no snacks, even on S-days.

Yesterday was a full-blown failure I had some cake my boss brought to the office, and in the evening I snacked on everything sweet and salty I could lay my hands on. I marked it and tried to move on, but I'm disappointed with myself

I totally get it. Speaking from experience over the past two weeks - one plate at a time so by breakfast you'd already have had your first success and you can be proud again. I hope that helps!

I proudly mark today as green. Big, protein-rich breakfast (plus TONS of hot tea) always sets me up for a good day. Whenever I feel peckish or want to eat for emotional reasons, I can fix myself a cup of British-style tea with sugar and a splash of milk. I looove milky beverages, and they are very much like treats to me!
I really like the idea of having exceptionally tasty meals on S-days. I know that a yummy dinner/lunch I can look forward to eliminates any cravings for sweets stuff that I may have. I therefore plan to have a nice, big breakfast on Saturday, one with enough protein plus some borderline S, like mango yoghurt cup/French toast/semolina pudding with real cream.