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No S vs. Weight Watchers

 
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: No S vs. Weight Watchers Reply with quote

Arrrrgh!!! Remind me once again why YOU have personally chosen this route vs weight watchers (or some other way of eating). That is all for now. That is the question. Lol. I need to hear this from folks that have been there once AGAIN!! Perhaps the umpteenth time will be the charm. Wink
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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Bluebell



Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 559
Location: Hampshire UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: No S vs. Weight Watchers Reply with quote

ZippaDee wrote:
Arrrrgh!!! Remind me once again why YOU have personally chosen this route vs weight watchers (or some other way of eating). That is all for now. That is the question. Lol. I need to hear this from folks that have been there once AGAIN!! Perhaps the umpteenth time will be the charm. Wink

OK I have tried most diets out there. Have now done 2 months of NoS. Here's my list:
No counting anything. Apart from plates and that's easy Very Happy
No major food groups I have to cut out
No obsessing about what I can and cannot eat.
No studying food packets for hours on end.
No eating different foods from my family
No tortuous conversation in my head about whether I should or should not allow myself a certain treat.
No feeling depressed because I have broken a rule.
No humiliating standing on scales and feeling down because I have gained half a pound.
No targets.
No financial outlay.
No giving up and returning to my bad habits and putting all of the weight back on and more.
No wondering which diet I should try next.

Phew!

I could sum all of that up in one sentence:
No S is finally, for the first time in my life, helping me to develop a normal relationship with food.
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Bullisaba



Joined: 14 Jan 2016
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is possible to do No S long term. Can you really see yourself being happy doing weight watchers for the rest of your life?

If you want to drop weight quicker on No S and give yourself a little boost then try filling more of your plate with veggies. Don't switch to a diet for quick results, stick with No S for the long haul. You will end up thinner in the long run.
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much for your comments!! You both are SO right on all aspects! I have a long history with weight watchers. It works SHORT term, but NOT long term. This round I have been a ww member since Jan. I lost about 30 pounds and have gained back close to 20.....clearly...it is not working. I need to just commit to No S 100%.
At this point my main frustration is my hyper focus on food. It is all consuming. I need my life back!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9193
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the research shows that in over 150 years of "diets," the success rate has never changed. The same 3-10% is successful even though thousands of diet books have been published.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/25/why-diets-dont-work-long-term-cause-weight-gain_n_1452875.html

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/Dieting-Does-Not-Work-UCLA-Researchers-7832

Roy Baumeister, esteemed researcher on willpower, has said if you want to lose weight, 1) don't go on a "diet," and 2) don't swear off any food. Don't assume you don't have willpower if you slip. Do learn to combat WTH. Do use situational rules, similar to No S. He recommends recording food intake but not calorie counting nor calorie limits. But I think the three plates helps counter the need for recording, though it's your call.

WW has mostly dropouts, but it is true that of those who stick it out to goal, they do actually have a lower failure-to-keep-it-off rate. 84% rather than 90-97%. Still a terrible bet.

Those who aim to eat better quality food over time often improve their health markers even without losing weight.

“Most slim people don’t employ restrictive diets or intense health regimes to stay at a healthy weight,” Dr. Brian Wansink, the study’s co-author, said in a statement. “Instead, they practice easy habits like not skipping breakfast, and listening to inner cues.” I think the one-plate meal structure can help overeaters mimic this over time. Continuing with Wansink:The participants’ responses highlighted one major takeaway for healthy living: Routine is key. For many, routines are a necessity to success. When healthy habits are built-in to a person’s schedule, they become second nature, and feel less-chore like.

Diets have never been shown to have the majority of people actually prefer eating less over time.

Valter Longo, researcher on longevity who does advocate periodic modified fasting, thinks consistent caloric restriction is kind of slow torture. He eats two meals a day. He probably does eat fewer calories than the average bear, but not because he limits them. I'd bet he has some S days at times. But the point is gaps between meals is a good thing.

You may join WW or the ilk if you faithfully implement the program for a year and gain weight. Your odds of success on something else then will be increased because you will feel you have exhausted your best option AND you will have learned discipline.

But you probably won't want to give No S up and will likely make satisfying adjustments as the years go by.

Enough? Bookmark this page, read it often at first and any time you get the diet bug.

UNLESS you develop a serious health condition, THE reason diets are appropriate, IMHO. Users often lose weight, but it's a side effect. Those who don't have the condition rarely have the same motivation, so things eventually go cattywompers.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Merry



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1657

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZippaDee wrote:
Thanks so much for your comments!! You both are SO right on all aspects! I have a long history with weight watchers. It works SHORT term, but NOT long term. This round I have been a ww member since Jan. I lost about 30 pounds and have gained back close to 20.....clearly...it is not working. I need to just commit to No S 100%.
At this point my main frustration is my hyper focus on food. It is all consuming. I need my life back!


Every other diet I've ever done had this yo-yo effect (in fact, I always gained back more than what I lost). I knew I didn't need another diet. I needed a new way of eating that I was willing to follow for the rest of my life. That's what I love about No-S. Maintenance IS the plan. It's so doable. I really do think I can continue to use this long-term.
_________________
Homeschool Mom and No S returnee as of 11-30-15.
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
Respect Moderation
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Bluebell



Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 559
Location: Hampshire UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Every other diet I've ever done had this yo-yo effect (in fact, I always gained back more than what I lost). I knew I didn't need another diet. I needed a new way of eating that I was willing to follow for the rest of my life. That's what I love about No-S. Maintenance IS the plan. It's so doable. I really do think I can continue to use this long-term."

Wise words indeed Merry, and I echo your thoughts completely.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9193
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony is that the meals I eat now are very similar to what I used on WW, but I think S days without imposed calorie limits, including many wild ones, are what makes them even more desirable. (And S days are quite similar at times.)

And I've counted calories only periodically only out of curiosity.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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CamperRose



Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to post my own "wisdom" on this topic, but, WOW, the replies already are terrific and I have nothing else to add.

I do want to mention that for me, after a year, I can see the changes that occurred sort of naturally without me really doing much. That is a benefit of No S to me and a long term approach; you don't have to force yourself to learn, implement and keep a lot of new changes, things just gradually improve as you stay with it.

I intend to bookmark this page to come back to if I get discouraged in the future. Great replies by everyone above.

Rose.
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Brocky



Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: only a week in Reply with quote

I don't really have the right to comment as only one week in but one thing I am enjoying is looking at recipes and being able to choose and cook anything I want to without looking up low fat or low calorie at the beginning of the search
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!!! Thank you so very much for all of your wonderful responses! An extra thank you to Oolala for your detailed and informational post! Appreciate it so very much! I will save this post for sure and read as needed. I have already read through it several times. I KNOW all of these things to be true and I have preached it to myself in the past, but the quicker results of a restrictive diet seems to draw me back every time. I know absolutely that I can NOT count and weigh and measure for the rest of my life. I always try to compensate for that by saying to myself that I will do this to take the weight off and then move onto something else for maintenance. I know that this is not logical thinking either! I am weary about thinking about food ALL of the time! arrrrgh! And, then when I start to slip I get stuck thinking about what I should do. I took my first steps of leaving weight watchers behind by getting off of all the weight watcher groups on fb that clog up my newsfeed and my brain. Now to delete my ww account. ONWARD Arrow Arrow
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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k1dub



Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because No S hasn't changed. I just started No S in the summer but it's been around quite a few years. In that time, WW has majorly overhauled their programs citing new "research and scientific findings". Yet, their failure rate remains the same. The number of people who are on and and stay on maintains the same.

I'd rather stick with the program that's not flashy but gets you results rather than the program that has to change itself so drastically so often to keep you interested.
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"All people use food for more reasons than mere nutrition." ~ Maya Angelou

Committed 7.12.16 | Vanilla No S
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Mustloseweight



Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 142
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weightwatchers is a crutch that props up what becomes emotional dependence on their current system, meetings and products. When having a bad week you soon spiral out of control. I like how No S teaches you to stand firm on your own two feet with a plan that can be followed for life without special systems, meetings or products. The biggest reason for me preferring this to WW is the fact that when following WW I obsess about foods that are high sugar and high fat and I am hungry all the time.
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September 2017 - Starting weight: 19st 9lbs
March 2018 - Current weight: 17st 2lbs
Target Weight: 11 stones

Total loss so far: 35lbs
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Izzy



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: No S vs. Weight Watchers Reply with quote

Bluebell wrote:
ZippaDee wrote:
Arrrrgh!!! Remind me once again why YOU have personally chosen this route vs weight watchers (or some other way of eating). That is all for now. That is the question. Lol. I need to hear this from folks that have been there once AGAIN!! Perhaps the umpteenth time will be the charm. Wink

OK I have tried most diets out there. Have now done 2 months of NoS. Here's my list:
No counting anything. Apart from plates and that's easy Very Happy
No major food groups I have to cut out
No obsessing about what I can and cannot eat.
No studying food packets for hours on end.
No eating different foods from my family
No tortuous conversation in my head about whether I should or should not allow myself a certain treat.
No feeling depressed because I have broken a rule.
No humiliating standing on scales and feeling down because I have gained half a pound.
No targets.
No financial outlay.
No giving up and returning to my bad habits and putting all of the weight back on and more.
No wondering which diet I should try next.

Phew!

I could sum all of that up in one sentence:
No S is finally, for the first time in my life, helping me to develop a normal relationship with food.


Well said Bluebell! I second ALL of the above.

In addition for me personally, COOKING is my most valued creative outlet and No s allows me to do that freely, and most importantly without any stress of restrictions on food groups or counting calories.

This is one of the most encouraging places without any judgment you will find for support!
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Izzy
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babybird



Joined: 05 Dec 2016
Posts: 72
Location: U.K

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did WW for a short period of time. I bought the scales/ book/ app / ww yoghurt/ wraps. I spent a lot of time understanding the Plan and buying specific food. It was mentally very time consuming. I lost weight very quickly. 4 pounds in a week but it all came back on once I had stopped.
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S days =one sweet thursday and sat only.

Been one year almost aiming for 21day challenge
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Merry



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1657

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

babybird wrote:
I did WW for a short period of time. I bought the scales/ book/ app / ww yoghurt/ wraps. I spent a lot of time understanding the Plan and buying specific food. It was mentally very time consuming. I lost weight very quickly. 4 pounds in a week but it all came back on once I had stopped.


Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to in your other thread. Losing weight and maintaining a different weight are two very different things--and if a person is going to "stop" a diet, one might as well not even start it. Wish I had understood that years ago!
_________________
Homeschool Mom and No S returnee as of 11-30-15.
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
Respect Moderation
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, here I am close to a year after I originally posted this question in pretty much the same place that I was and pretty much feeling the same way I was feeling a year ago. I started out the year committed to NoS for a year. Quickly fell off of that and back to WW I went. I am still a member of WW. My meeting attendance has been spotty and my weight is in pretty much the same place it was when I originally wrote this post last year. Sigh.... I want to stop this insanity ,but I DO want to lose weight!!! I guess I question if I really will lose weight with No S because I see so many posts here about folks maintaining, but not losing. While the ww boards are filled with weight loss stories. I am continually stuck in the "thinking about what I should do" and not actually in the "doing something about it" phase.

I offer up my ramble....AGAIN......arrrrrgh!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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vmsurbat



Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 494
Location: Montenegro

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess I question if I really will lose weight with No S because I see so many posts here about folks maintaining, but not losing.


Along with re-committing to NoS (the best antidote to "diet insanity"), may I suggest that you visit the Testimony board? NoS has worked wonderfully for *many* people, each with their own story.

Some had just a few pounds and lost it quickly. Some had lots, and lost quickly. Some had a lot of weight to lose, and lost it slowly--sometimes not at all for months--but the sanity of NoS kept them plugging along ("maintaining") and then....boom...the weight began to come off. And over and over again, you'll hear the familiar refrain of "What I appreciate MOST about NoS is a normal relationship with food."

If I read correctly, you stated you didn't really lose much with WW, anyway. Why not go whole-heartedly in with NoS? At least the NoS journey is sane, sensible, and satisfying! You can start with your next meal. Lots of encouragement (all free!) here on the boards.

Here's to your NoS success!
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Vicki in MNE
7! Yrs. with Vanilla NoS, down 55+lb, happily maintaining and still loving it!
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ironchef



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 1630
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’ll see maintaining posts from me, but that’s because I’ve been here over 5 years, so my losses were years ago (after my first bub and then after my second).

In the past I always lost, but then always yo-yo’d, so maintenance of a lower weight long term has been unique to No S. I get that it’s less exciting than the initial losing, and that’s part of the struggle. I’ve got no exciting news to post, no one around me compliments me on losing weight. It’s just me, my habits and the board (for which I’m always grateful).
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 383
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 3 meal structure of NoS is not that difficult once you get your pancreas trained, so why not NoS while you're making up your mind? Weight aside, you will be doing your body a kindness and building a structure that will make other eating plans easier, if that's what you decide.

I've lost only a few pounds in my six months of NoS. But my bloodwork has dropped out of the prediabetic range. I'm way more comfortable. Meals are a pleasure. I don't have candy wrappers in my car and most of the time it's not difficult to tune out treats. I'm also not that worried about my weight per se as long as I feel good and my health markers are improving. I'm 51 and hypothyroid, and also rather lazy about weight loss if my health markers are improving and I'm feeling good.

I get where you're coming from, I really do, but I think the bottom line is that weight loss in whatever program is going to be because of what you bring to it. You can lose weight on practically any diet- there are a million out there. How do you want to live going forward? What makes the most sense to you?
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9193
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you saying that if no one can guarantee that you'll lose weight on No S that you'll be okay with eating the way you've been eating and living with the body you have?

I ask this with all the warmth I can: if you REALLY want to lose weight, why do you think you haven't? What gets in the way? What food and overeating situation is it actually more important to you to get to have than losing weight is? You likely have to face this honestly before anything will change.

How uncomfortable are you willing to be? Because if you think you're going to find a completely painless way to do it, your odds of being disappointed are pretty high. The majority of people even here who have lost have not had it just be easy breezy. But as someone quoted me, even No S isn't necessarily easy; it's just an easiER way to manage the culture of food excess than almost everything else. It's been doable. Only you can determine if it's doable for you.

What difference does it make if you don't lose weight on No S if you end up not being willing to do what it takes to lose weight any other way? Have you really exhausted them all? Maybe you'll luck out and stumble on one that makes it all downhill. In ten years on Spark, I've seen people i have that happen- at about the same rate as the stats show. The vast majority go year after year looking for the program that they'll sail into the sunset with. The honest truth is most of them will literally go to their graves without finding it. Not necessarily because they didn't find it, but without finding it all the same.

Which one are you going to be?

I wish I could promise you that it will be easy and you'll lose weight. That is what so many diet books promise. And we all know how successful their readers are.

I hope you get convinced to either surrender and DO this, making adaptations as you need for what you want, or stop torturing yourself and accept the eating life and body you have. Because one or the other is the kindest thing you can do for yourself. Anything else is just unproductive suffering. And that you don't deserve. But you're the only one who can free yourself.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much Vicki! I have been on these boards a long time and you have always inspired me! I DO need to go back and read the testimony page again and I need to read the book again!!
Vicki said:
Quote:
If I read correctly, you stated you didn't really lose much with WW, anyway. Why not go whole-heartedly in with NoS? At least the NoS journey is sane, sensible, and satisfying! You can start with your next meal. Lots of encouragement (all free!) here on the boards.


I KNOW this to be the truth!! I have actually lost weight with both programs in the past. I have a long history with this! But, I have also gained it back with both! I know in order to be successful long term I need to CHANGE MY HABITS!! And, I know that No S makes more sense long term!! Thanks for your encouragement!

Ironchef...Thanks so much for your encouragement!! Maintaining IS success!!!!....MUCH more successful than the losing part! It's the part I have trouble with! Your success is an encouragement to me! THANK YOU!!

Larkspur said....
Quote:
I get where you're coming from, I really do, but I think the bottom line is that weight loss in whatever program is going to be because of what you bring to it. You can lose weight on practically any diet- there are a million out there. How do you want to live going forward? What makes the most sense to you?


That is the key isn't it? How do I want to live my life going forward?!! NOT counting, weighing and measuring EVERY last morsel that crosses my lips. I know that! Congrats on your success Larkspur! Health markers and how you feel are so much more important than the number on the scale! And, I am 52...so we have that in common! Thanks for taking the time to respond to this post!

I have to scoot to work now! Only a half day, so I will respond to Oolala's post when I get home. Oolala....let me just say quick though that I appreciate you so very much!! I needed to hear what you said!!! More later!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9193
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like you're convinced, and this is overkill, but just for fun, look at this.
https://fatfu.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/weight-watchers/
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oolala said:
Quote:
Are you saying that if no one can guarantee that you'll lose weight on No S that you'll be okay with eating the way you've been eating and living with the body you have?


Ummmmm........ummmmm.....let me see....NO!!! Rolling Eyes

Oolala said:
Quote:
I ask this with all the warmth I can: if you REALLY want to lose weight, why do you think you haven't? What gets in the way? What food and overeating situation is it actually more important to you to get to have than losing weight is? You likely have to face this honestly before anything will change.


Ummmmmm..... more REALLY good, hard to answer and face questions! Shocked The answers to these questions are not pretty! And, I don't want these answers to be true or to be who I am. I don't want my poor eating habits and choices to be more important to me than my well being and health. But, the reality is that since I keep making these poor choices over and over again ....the junk I put into my body must be more important to me than improved well being or health. That is SAD to me because I am generally a pretty sensible person and this lacks good sense and self care! Crying or Very sad

Oolala said:
Quote:
How uncomfortable are you willing to be? Because if you think you're going to find a completely painless way to do it, your odds of being disappointed are pretty high. The majority of people even here who have lost have not had it just be easy breezy. But as someone quoted me, even No S isn't necessarily easy; it's just an easiER way to manage the culture of food excess than almost everything else. It's been doable. Only you can determine if it's doable for you.


I do understand this! The only two ways I have ever used to attempt weight loss is No S and WW. I have lost weight multiple times. I have lost 25 pounds in the past using NoS and have lost 15 bls, 60 lbs., 30 lbs at different points with WW. I know it's not painless!! And, I know that NoS is simple, but it is not easy.....just easiER as you say!!

Oolala said:
Quote:
The vast majority go year after year looking for the program that they'll sail into the sunset with. The honest truth is most of them will literally go to their graves without finding it. Not necessarily because they didn't find it, but without finding it all the same.


Sad Sad So sad and I get it! I want the insanity to stop!

Oolala said:
Quote:
I hope you get convinced to either surrender and DO this, making adaptations as you need for what you want, or stop torturing yourself and accept the eating life and body you have. Because one or the other is the kindest thing you can do for yourself. Anything else is just unproductive suffering. And that you don't deserve. But you're the only one who can free yourself.


YES!!! I want to be FREE!!! I REALLY REALLY need to just DO THIS and be patient and let my weight fall where it may!!

Thanks so much for this thought provoking post Oolala!!! It has been so extremely helpful!!

And that last link...gah!!! So very sad that so many, like me, are sucked in over and over and over again!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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Merry



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1657

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel your pain and dilemma!

When I came back to No-S (after a previous failed attempt years prior), I had decided a few things:

1, I didn't need a diet. I needed a lifestyle change. I thought long and hard about what I was willing to change. I knew I could lose weight calorie counting or cutting out certain foods etc... (ways I had lost in the past--and then gained it all back and more). So I knew that instead of a diet, I needed to decide what I was willing to do for the rest of my life.

When I finally came to that realization, then No-S came to mind right away. It's so much more doable than other plans.

2, I shouldn't expect to lose fast. I'm not willing to be *that* strict. I want to enjoy my S days. I'm willing to be pretty strict with N days if I can enjoy some S days. Some are wild. Some are too wild. They've tamed down over time, but they still are probably more wild than they should be at times. But they are still my release valve that make me willing to follow N days. They keep me on plan, so I don't worry about them. But...that can mean my losses are slower than I might like. This year has been very slow--lots of maintaining and few months with losing just a pound. I hoped to be farther along at this point (I lost 22 the first year, and was hoping to lose at least 18 this year to get to a total of 40 lost...but I'm only at 28 total so far.) Still...I know where I would be without No-S. Eating whatever whenever. maybe more yo-yo dieting. Gaining 5 or so lbs. each year as I had the last many years. Instead of down 28, I'd be up 10, or a total of 38 more than I weigh now, if I had followed my previous trajectory the last 2 years.

Slow losses that are maintainable seem so much healthier to me than continuing to yo-yo.

Slow losses are only occasionally uncomfortable. I'm not hungry. I really don't miss out (goodness, I have plenty of treats in my life, even with turning down the occasional beloved brownie at a party!) I can do this. It's not *that* hard. (I never stuck with calorie counting for more than 4 months, Vegan and other types of diets for 6 months...even a diet I tried for health reasons only lasted a year, and I spent years in rebellion after that!)

I rarely feel my emotions "bucking" against the constraints of No-S--it's just not that much resistance that I feel like rebelling.

With that in mind, think about how quickly you lost weight on No-S previously, and if by chance you tried to be too harsh or too drastic and it made you not want to keep up with it. Do No-S in a way that makes you want to keep up with it long-term--but also wrap your mind around what that might mean loss-wise and see if you're okay with that.

Anyway...best wishes to you!
_________________
Homeschool Mom and No S returnee as of 11-30-15.
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
Respect Moderation
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 738
Location: No Quit Zone

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merrry, Thanks so very much for taking the time to reply to my post! I always enjoy reading all of your comments on this board. You are so very sensible in your thinking! YES...I too desire a lifestyle change and NOT a diet. As you know, ww tries to claim that phrase, "lifestyle change" I have questioned this in meetings and on their boards. What does that look like exactly in the realm of ww because it sure doesn't feel like something that I can keep up for the rest of my life....or even something that I desire to keep up with for the rest of my life!

I KNOW this path of yo yoing that I have been on for years now is not healthy for me....not healthy for my body OR my mind!! I need to just make up my mind once and for all to get off of this roller coaster and commit to these three simple (though not always easy) rules!

Thanks for your help Merry!!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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sharon227



Joined: 18 May 2018
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this thread about No S vs Weight Watchers very useful. Like many here, I've done WW several times. I "succeeded" in losing the weight, but not in keeping it off. I decided (finally) it would be helpful if I asked myself: Why is that? Why could I lose but not maintain?

Part of the reason is that tracking and weighing and measuring just wasn't sustainable for me for the long haul. It turned something that should be pleasurable and relaxing -- eating -- into something that was like an accounting ledger.

But I also believe now that part of the reason for my long-term failure is that the energy and enthusiasm I brought to the WW plan each time -- and I did, I followed it well at the outset and thought it was really helpful -- was based around losing. It is just hard to keep the same enthusiasm and commitment to maintaining. So much of the program is built emotionally around that weekly weigh-in and seeing the number drop. It's tough to muster the same enthusiasm for monthly maintenance, no matter what I tell myself.

This is why I'm trying so hard (and it is still a struggle) not to weigh every day on No S and obsess about the daily number. I fooled myself into thinking that since I was looking at 7-day averages, it was fine. But there are other reasons not to obsess about how much I'm losing so often, even if the trends are accurate. No S has so many other important benefits. I think it's important to me to focus on those right now, if I truly want to retrain habits for the long run.

"Wow, I am enjoying my meals more now." "I am developing a more enjoyable relationship with food." "I love how it's easier not to eat so much crap and so I feel better." These are things that seem sustainable, whether I need to lose or maintain. If the whole motivation is how much I'm losing, I'm going to run into problems come maintenance time.

I'm also optimistic because I won't have to make a switch from a "losing plan" to a "maintenance plan." That was my downfall on South Beach. I think South Beach is a great and healthy plan to lose weight, even though there's some label-reading and prohibitions involved. But the maintenance -- now you can eat all those foods you avoided during your weight-loss phase, just not too often -- didn't give me enough guidance.

I see now that it is actually a major cognitive change from "don't eat this" to "eat this, but not too often." There was a lot of support during that first part, but not enough for the second.

So I believe that I needed to spend too much mental energy trying to figure out what was an "appropriate" amount of refined carbs without being "too much." I maintained on South Beach for quite awhile anyway. But when crises hit a few years ago and I was dealing with grief from the loss of several loved ones, I didn't have habits and structure to fall back on. And I certainly didn't have any excess mental energy on dealing with portioning out sugar and treats.

I don't know if I would have had the mental energy or desire to stick with No S back then either. But I think it could have been sooner than now to get my eating back on a healthy track.

I think back 15 years and 14 pounds ago, when I was at a great weight but my doctor wanted me to cut back on how much beef I was eating for health reasons (and he was absolutely correct, I was eating a lot of beef). The nutritionist in his office wanted me to cut back to once a week, but I wheedled her into agreeing that twice a week was OK. Very Happy

For a couple of months, I would obsess about when my beef days were coming up, having a tough time between them. Then, slowly, it stopped mattering. There are many weeks I don't even have one beef meal a week, let alone two. If you had told me then that would happen, I wouldn't have believed it. But I developed new habits. I had structure. And it wasn't forbidden, just limited.

Am hoping for the same on No S. And that someday when it's free ice cream day at work on a summer weekday, I won't care.

That same doctor suggested No S to me now, by the way. He has been talking to me for several years about my weight creeping up. He explains why there are health implications. And I totally agree with him. This is not about "looking better at the beach." It's about my health, and there's nothing more important.

Each time I'd vow to rededicate myself to losing, but the past few years nothing is working long-term. Finally this time, I told him flat out at the start of our discussion that I'm done with tracking and measuring my food, I can't live like that. And he mentioned that he learned recently that one of his patients had lost 20 lbs on No S -- he called it a diet with a sense of humor. So here I am. Very happy to have discovered this!
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simmstone



Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 81
Location: TX

PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Consider this analogy:

What if you woke up tomorrow and decided that you desperately wanted to paint an art masterpiece of Vincent Van Gogh-like artistry? But your previous experience was limited exclusively to painting in those 'paint/color by number' books. How would you get from point a (paint by numbers) to point b (artistic masterpiece)?

It would make sense to attack it like this:

1. You'd need some basic art lessons
If all you'd ever done was paint according to someone else's dictation of where to put color, you'd need to learn about painting basics like selecting a brush, mixing colors, choosing types of canvas/paints to work with, etc.
2. You'd need to spend time painting on your own, outside of class
It's difficult to create your own art when you don't even know how to, say, hold a paint brush, but, after lessons, you now have those kind of basic things down. Once you've mastered technique-basics in a class, you need to have some time to paint to discern what your own artistic vision is.
3. You can now begin to use advanced techniques to create the masterpiece you aspire toward
You've mastered the basics. You now paint on your own, without a pre-determined color palette. You do this long enough so that your own creative desires begin to emerge. Now you can learn new techniques that build on your existing mastery of the fundamentals and begin to more fully express your vision.

You might not yet have painted a masterpiece, but the evolution of events has led you to a point where you can now paint for expression/purpose, rather than just following someone else's rote instruction. And this gives you the skills you need to make art.

Making No S work for weight loss after you've been on WW is a lot like learning to paint/make art when all you've previously done is paint by numbers. If you are a 'natural' artist, you might not need much time to make the switch. If you aren't, then you might need more practice.

No S is, initially, merely a system for moderating your eating that limits your input opportunities/choices on most days. It's a starting point. Other than that, Reinhard points out pretty clearly in the book that additional distinctions (i.e. what goes on your plate) are up to you - similar to an artist being forced to make their own color choices to suit their vision. Some people (like Reinhard) adapt right away and have a strong intuitive feel for the medium they've chosen. Others might take longer to get comfortable and need more time/practice.

You shouldn't attempt advanced techniques until the basic fundamentals (No S rules) have been thoroughly ingrained in your daily life - similar to the way that you wouldn't try advanced art technique if you haven't yet mastered holding the brush or mixing the colors. But, within the No S system, there are ways to leverage additional sub-habits, once you've mastered the basics, if you want to optimize it for weight loss - similar to the way you might use advanced color-mixing, brush technique for specific effect in an existing painting, once you've learned to paint.

Once you have the basic No S rules completely mastered (i.e. you first have a habit of painting with regularity using basic techniques), you can, often, actually 'step back from your painting' and evaluate the results. And once you've evaluated, you can choose to apply specific techniques that might help you achieve your desired effect.

So first see if you can get the point where you do No S and are simply able to MAINTAIN your weight. This is akin to an artist being able to mix their own paint, choose their own brush, and work with basic stroke patterns/techniques. Repeat this for at least 3 months (6 months is even better). This step is important because (a) it solidifies your habits (i.e. to be a painter, you must, first, paint with regularity), and (b) it helps you establish a baseline (mastery of the basics) - after all, you can't adjust a baseline until you establish one. You can't, for example, become an 'artist who paints' without, first, establishing a habit of painting.

Once you have mastered the medium (3 meals per day during the week), you can use other habit building principles for weight reduction without serious point/calorie counting - similar to how a seasoned artist wouldn't need to rely on pre-mixed color or paint-by-numbers to know what to add to their painting.

Habit-based examples that would lead to overall reduction :
- Make half of your plate fresh vegetables with light/no dressing for 3 of your 15 weekday meals each week (i.e. dinner on Monday, Wednesday and Friday). Repeat for 1 month. Evaluate weight loss. If non-satisfactory weight loss occurs, increase to 4 of your weekly meals. Repeat. Move up to 5 meals per week (1 per day) this way, if necessary.
- If the above feels too constricting, try something that feels less so (i.e. choose an art technique that is more in tune your unique artistic expression). For example, skip 1-3 meals per week when you are least hungry (i.e. Intermittent Fasting). This one works like gang-busters for me, since I'm not usually hungry at breakfast time, which makes it feel completely unobtrusive. I just have coffee with a splash of almond milk. This is an easy way to cut out 500-1500 calories per week with very little extra attention, but only works if you don't over-compensate.
- Or simply introduce more activity into your routine. Increase your duration and intensity over time and chart if this has an impact on your weight. Adjust accordingly.

There are plenty of other techniques you can apply (S Day limitations, macronutrient manipulation for certain meals, etc, etc, etc)... similar to art, the styles/colors/mediums available are boundless. The point is that building the No S habit, even if it doesn't initially lead to weight loss, is the most important first step. It's like learning to paint if you want to be an artist that works in paints. Once you've mastered the basics, you can look for ways to adjust input without obsessively counting WW points - after all, there are only 15 opportunities each Mon-Fri, so identifying the excess with each one and calculating ways to cut back on that excess without being too restrictive is more approachable than completely overhauling unlimited input opportunities/choices. The process is similar to the way an artist who has mastered the basics of painting and paints with regularity gets better and better at adjusting and doesn't need 'pre-fabricated' suggestions (i.e. WW points) to do so.

If it counts at all, I personally find No S to be more 'artistic' and fulfilling than the 'paint by numbers' plans like Weight Watchers... after all, one system teaches you how to eat and the other simply teaches you how to count Very Happy If you can master No S, you have a tool for life to create the expression you wish. If you simply stick to the paint by numbers books, you might get results more quickly, but you haven't learned anything, you will eventually get bored, and (data indicates) you will probably drop out.

Best of luck to you on your journey!
_________________
"No S is such a good way to combat the randomness, which is often the slide into more and more." - oolala53

Binge-free since 3/18/18
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Dalia negra



Joined: 10 Jan 2018
Posts: 221
Location: Barcelona (Spain)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

simmstone wrote:
Consider this analogy:

What if you woke up tomorrow and decided that you desperately wanted to paint an art masterpiece of Vincent Van Gogh-like artistry? But your previous experience was limited exclusively to painting in those 'paint/color by number' books. How would you get from point a (paint by numbers) to point b (artistic masterpiece)?

It would make sense to attack it like this:

1. You'd need some basic art lessons
If all you'd ever done was paint according to someone else's dictation of where to put color, you'd need to learn about painting basics like selecting a brush, mixing colors, choosing types of canvas/paints to work with, etc.
2. You'd need to spend time painting on your own, outside of class
It's difficult to create your own art when you don't even know how to, say, hold a paint brush, but, after lessons, you now have those kind of basic things down. Once you've mastered technique-basics in a class, you need to have some time to paint to discern what your own artistic vision is.
3. You can now begin to use advanced techniques to create the masterpiece you aspire toward
You've mastered the basics. You now paint on your own, without a pre-determined color palette. You do this long enough so that your own creative desires begin to emerge. Now you can learn new techniques that build on your existing mastery of the fundamentals and begin to more fully express your vision.

You might not yet have painted a masterpiece, but the evolution of events has led you to a point where you can now paint for expression/purpose, rather than just following someone else's rote instruction. And this gives you the skills you need to make art.

Making No S work for weight loss after you've been on WW is a lot like learning to paint/make art when all you've previously done is paint by numbers. If you are a 'natural' artist, you might not need much time to make the switch. If you aren't, then you might need more practice.

No S is, initially, merely a system for moderating your eating that limits your input opportunities/choices on most days. It's a starting point. Other than that, Reinhard points out pretty clearly in the book that additional distinctions (i.e. what goes on your plate) are up to you - similar to an artist being forced to make their own color choices to suit their vision. Some people (like Reinhard) adapt right away and have a strong intuitive feel for the medium they've chosen. Others might take longer to get comfortable and need more time/practice.

You shouldn't attempt advanced techniques until the basic fundamentals (No S rules) have been thoroughly ingrained in your daily life - similar to the way that you wouldn't try advanced art technique if you haven't yet mastered holding the brush or mixing the colors. But, within the No S system, there are ways to leverage additional sub-habits, once you've mastered the basics, if you want to optimize it for weight loss - similar to the way you might use advanced color-mixing, brush technique for specific effect in an existing painting, once you've learned to paint.

Once you have the basic No S rules completely mastered (i.e. you first have a habit of painting with regularity using basic techniques), you can, often, actually 'step back from your painting' and evaluate the results. And once you've evaluated, you can choose to apply specific techniques that might help you achieve your desired effect.

So first see if you can get the point where you do No S and are simply able to MAINTAIN your weight. This is akin to an artist being able to mix their own paint, choose their own brush, and work with basic stroke patterns/techniques. Repeat this for at least 3 months (6 months is even better). This step is important because (a) it solidifies your habits (i.e. to be a painter, you must, first, paint with regularity), and (b) it helps you establish a baseline (mastery of the basics) - after all, you can't adjust a baseline until you establish one. You can't, for example, become an 'artist who paints' without, first, establishing a habit of painting.

Once you have mastered the medium (3 meals per day during the week), you can use other habit building principles for weight reduction without serious point/calorie counting - similar to how a seasoned artist wouldn't need to rely on pre-mixed color or paint-by-numbers to know what to add to their painting.

Habit-based examples that would lead to overall reduction :
- Make half of your plate fresh vegetables with light/no dressing for 3 of your 15 weekday meals each week (i.e. dinner on Monday, Wednesday and Friday). Repeat for 1 month. Evaluate weight loss. If non-satisfactory weight loss occurs, increase to 4 of your weekly meals. Repeat. Move up to 5 meals per week (1 per day) this way, if necessary.
- If the above feels too constricting, try something that feels less so (i.e. choose an art technique that is more in tune your unique artistic expression). For example, skip 1-3 meals per week when you are least hungry (i.e. Intermittent Fasting). This one works like gang-busters for me, since I'm not usually hungry at breakfast time, which makes it feel completely unobtrusive. I just have coffee with a splash of almond milk. This is an easy way to cut out 500-1500 calories per week with very little extra attention, but only works if you don't over-compensate.
- Or simply introduce more activity into your routine. Increase your duration and intensity over time and chart if this has an impact on your weight. Adjust accordingly.

There are plenty of other techniques you can apply (S Day limitations, macronutrient manipulation for certain meals, etc, etc, etc)... similar to art, the styles/colors/mediums available are boundless. The point is that building the No S habit, even if it doesn't initially lead to weight loss, is the most important first step. It's like learning to paint if you want to be an artist that works in paints. Once you've mastered the basics, you can look for ways to adjust input without obsessively counting WW points - after all, there are only 15 opportunities each Mon-Fri, so identifying the excess with each one and calculating ways to cut back on that excess without being too restrictive is more approachable than completely overhauling unlimited input opportunities/choices. The process is similar to the way an artist who has mastered the basics of painting and paints with regularity gets better and better at adjusting and doesn't need 'pre-fabricated' suggestions (i.e. WW points) to do so.

If it counts at all, I personally find No S to be more 'artistic' and fulfilling than the 'paint by numbers' plans like Weight Watchers... after all, one system teaches you how to eat and the other simply teaches you how to count Very Happy If you can master No S, you have a tool for life to create the expression you wish. If you simply stick to the paint by numbers books, you might get results more quickly, but you haven't learned anything, you will eventually get bored, and (data indicates) you will probably drop out.

Best of luck to you on your journey!






Simply wonderful. I'm going to keep your publication, you do not know what has opened my eyes and the hope it gives me Smile
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butterfly1000



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Dalia. The analogy is wonderful. I’ve also followed ww on numerous occasions as well as other diets and it never lasts. I haven’t yet been able to stick with No S long enough to see results but I know that if one day I succeed, it could be something I follow long term (unlike counting calories or points).
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Goldilocks



Joined: 06 Jun 2018
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simmstone wrote:
Consider this analogy:

What if you woke up tomorrow and decided that you desperately wanted to paint an art masterpiece of Vincent Van Gogh-like artistry? But your previous experience was limited exclusively to painting in those 'paint/color by number' books. How would you get from point a (paint by numbers) to point b (artistic masterpiece)?

It would make sense to attack it like this:

1. You'd need some basic art lessons
If all you'd ever done was paint according to someone else's dictation of where to put color, you'd need to learn about painting basics like selecting a brush, mixing colors, choosing types of canvas/paints to work with, etc.
2. You'd need to spend time painting on your own, outside of class
It's difficult to create your own art when you don't even know how to, say, hold a paint brush, but, after lessons, you now have those kind of basic things down. Once you've mastered technique-basics in a class, you need to have some time to paint to discern what your own artistic vision is.
3. You can now begin to use advanced techniques to create the masterpiece you aspire toward
You've mastered the basics. You now paint on your own, without a pre-determined color palette. You do this long enough so that your own creative desires begin to emerge. Now you can learn new techniques that build on your existing mastery of the fundamentals and begin to more fully express your vision.

You might not yet have painted a masterpiece, but the evolution of events has led you to a point where you can now paint for expression/purpose, rather than just following someone else's rote instruction. And this gives you the skills you need to make art.

Making No S work for weight loss after you've been on WW is a lot like learning to paint/make art when all you've previously done is paint by numbers. If you are a 'natural' artist, you might not need much time to make the switch. If you aren't, then you might need more practice.

No S is, initially, merely a system for moderating your eating that limits your input opportunities/choices on most days. It's a starting point. Other than that, Reinhard points out pretty clearly in the book that additional distinctions (i.e. what goes on your plate) are up to you - similar to an artist being forced to make their own color choices to suit their vision. Some people (like Reinhard) adapt right away and have a strong intuitive feel for the medium they've chosen. Others might take longer to get comfortable and need more time/practice.

You shouldn't attempt advanced techniques until the basic fundamentals (No S rules) have been thoroughly ingrained in your daily life - similar to the way that you wouldn't try advanced art technique if you haven't yet mastered holding the brush or mixing the colors. But, within the No S system, there are ways to leverage additional sub-habits, once you've mastered the basics, if you want to optimize it for weight loss - similar to the way you might use advanced color-mixing, brush technique for specific effect in an existing painting, once you've learned to paint.

Once you have the basic No S rules completely mastered (i.e. you first have a habit of painting with regularity using basic techniques), you can, often, actually 'step back from your painting' and evaluate the results. And once you've evaluated, you can choose to apply specific techniques that might help you achieve your desired effect.

So first see if you can get the point where you do No S and are simply able to MAINTAIN your weight. This is akin to an artist being able to mix their own paint, choose their own brush, and work with basic stroke patterns/techniques. Repeat this for at least 3 months (6 months is even better). This step is important because (a) it solidifies your habits (i.e. to be a painter, you must, first, paint with regularity), and (b) it helps you establish a baseline (mastery of the basics) - after all, you can't adjust a baseline until you establish one. You can't, for example, become an 'artist who paints' without, first, establishing a habit of painting.

Once you have mastered the medium (3 meals per day during the week), you can use other habit building principles for weight reduction without serious point/calorie counting - similar to how a seasoned artist wouldn't need to rely on pre-mixed color or paint-by-numbers to know what to add to their painting.

Habit-based examples that would lead to overall reduction :
- Make half of your plate fresh vegetables with light/no dressing for 3 of your 15 weekday meals each week (i.e. dinner on Monday, Wednesday and Friday). Repeat for 1 month. Evaluate weight loss. If non-satisfactory weight loss occurs, increase to 4 of your weekly meals. Repeat. Move up to 5 meals per week (1 per day) this way, if necessary.
- If the above feels too constricting, try something that feels less so (i.e. choose an art technique that is more in tune your unique artistic expression). For example, skip 1-3 meals per week when you are least hungry (i.e. Intermittent Fasting). This one works like gang-busters for me, since I'm not usually hungry at breakfast time, which makes it feel completely unobtrusive. I just have coffee with a splash of almond milk. This is an easy way to cut out 500-1500 calories per week with very little extra attention, but only works if you don't over-compensate.
- Or simply introduce more activity into your routine. Increase your duration and intensity over time and chart if this has an impact on your weight. Adjust accordingly.

There are plenty of other techniques you can apply (S Day limitations, macronutrient manipulation for certain meals, etc, etc, etc)... similar to art, the styles/colors/mediums available are boundless. The point is that building the No S habit, even if it doesn't initially lead to weight loss, is the most important first step. It's like learning to paint if you want to be an artist that works in paints. Once you've mastered the basics, you can look for ways to adjust input without obsessively counting WW points - after all, there are only 15 opportunities each Mon-Fri, so identifying the excess with each one and calculating ways to cut back on that excess without being too restrictive is more approachable than completely overhauling unlimited input opportunities/choices. The process is similar to the way an artist who has mastered the basics of painting and paints with regularity gets better and better at adjusting and doesn't need 'pre-fabricated' suggestions (i.e. WW points) to do so.

If it counts at all, I personally find No S to be more 'artistic' and fulfilling than the 'paint by numbers' plans like Weight Watchers... after all, one system teaches you how to eat and the other simply teaches you how to count Very Happy If you can master No S, you have a tool for life to create the expression you wish. If you simply stick to the paint by numbers books, you might get results more quickly, but you haven't learned anything, you will eventually get bored, and (data indicates) you will probably drop out.

Best of luck to you on your journey!


LOVED THIS! Be brilliant at the basics, priceless advice and a great reminder to keep things simple in the beginning. And knowing you can always add in more LATER after your are a "pro" at the basics.

I am just starting my NO S journey, and am working on a short basics list of my own (loosely based on some other's very successful NO S mods). See my diary in the check in thread.

Thanks so much for this post.
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Goldilocks

"The Goldilocks principle states that something must fall within certain margins, as opposed to reaching extremes."
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beginagain



Joined: 25 Dec 2015
Posts: 119
Location: Texas, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great analogy from Simmstone! This timeframe of 3-6 months for the basics of just maintainining, feels so encouraging. Like I'm doing okay since starting 2 months ago without much weight loss. I've been a lifelong calorie counter and weight watcher ETC. and success is measured by losing weekly. That IS the mindset of all diets. If you don't lose it feels like failure. But with No S, we are learning to be artists, not paint by numbers. That takes more time and is worth the time. Beautiful!
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So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do,
do everything for the glory of God. 1Cor.10:31
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sam128



Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

simmstone wrote:
Consider this analogy:

What if you woke up tomorrow and decided that you desperately wanted to paint an art masterpiece of Vincent Van Gogh-like artistry? But your previous experience was limited exclusively to painting in those 'paint/color by number' books. How would you get from point a (paint by numbers) to point b (artistic masterpiece)?

It would make sense to attack it like this: weight loss pills such as www phenq really work

1. You'd need some basic art lessons
If all you'd ever done was paint according to someone else's dictation of where to put color, you'd need to learn about painting basics like selecting a brush, mixing colors, choosing types of canvas/paints to work with, etc.
2. You'd need to spend time painting on your own, outside of class
It's difficult to create your own art when you don't even know how to, say, hold a paint brush, but, after lessons, you now have those kind of basic things down. Once you've mastered technique-basics in a class, you need to have some time to paint to discern what your own artistic vision is.
3. You can now begin to use advanced techniques to create the masterpiece you aspire toward
You've mastered the basics. You now paint on your own, without a pre-determined color palette. You do this long enough so that your own creative desires begin to emerge. Now you can learn new techniques that build on your existing mastery of the fundamentals and begin to more fully express your vision.

You might not yet have painted a masterpiece, but the evolution of events has led you to a point where you can now paint for expression/purpose, rather than just following someone else's rote instruction. And this gives you the skills you need to make art.

Making No S work for weight loss after you've been on WW is a lot like learning to paint/make art when all you've previously done is paint by numbers. If you are a 'natural' artist, you might not need much time to make the switch. If you aren't, then you might need more practice.

No S is, initially, merely a system for moderating your eating that limits your input opportunities/choices on most days. It's a starting point. Other than that, Reinhard points out pretty clearly in the book that additional distinctions (i.e. what goes on your plate) are up to you - similar to an artist being forced to make their own color choices to suit their vision. Some people (like Reinhard) adapt right away and have a strong intuitive feel for the medium they've chosen. Others might take longer to get comfortable and need more time/practice.

You shouldn't attempt advanced techniques until the basic fundamentals (No S rules) have been thoroughly ingrained in your daily life - similar to the way that you wouldn't try advanced art technique if you haven't yet mastered holding the brush or mixing the colors. But, within the No S system, there are ways to leverage additional sub-habits, once you've mastered the basics, if you want to optimize it for weight loss - similar to the way you might use advanced color-mixing, brush technique for specific effect in an existing painting, once you've learned to paint.

Once you have the basic No S rules completely mastered (i.e. you first have a habit of painting with regularity using basic techniques), you can, often, actually 'step back from your painting' and evaluate the results. And once you've evaluated, you can choose to apply specific techniques that might help you achieve your desired effect.

So first see if you can get the point where you do No S and are simply able to MAINTAIN your weight. This is akin to an artist being able to mix their own paint, choose their own brush, and work with basic stroke patterns/techniques. Repeat this for at least 3 months (6 months is even better). This step is important because (a) it solidifies your habits (i.e. to be a painter, you must, first, paint with regularity), and (b) it helps you establish a baseline (mastery of the basics) - after all, you can't adjust a baseline until you establish one. You can't, for example, become an 'artist who paints' without, first, establishing a habit of painting.

Once you have mastered the medium (3 meals per day during the week), you can use other habit building principles for weight reduction without serious point/calorie counting - similar to how a seasoned artist wouldn't need to rely on pre-mixed color or paint-by-numbers to know what to add to their painting.

Habit-based examples that would lead to overall reduction :
- Make half of your plate fresh vegetables with light/no dressing for 3 of your 15 weekday meals each week (i.e. dinner on Monday, Wednesday and Friday). Repeat for 1 month. Evaluate weight loss. If non-satisfactory weight loss occurs, increase to 4 of your weekly meals. Repeat. Move up to 5 meals per week (1 per day) this way, if necessary.
- If the above feels too constricting, try something that feels less so (i.e. choose an art technique that is more in tune your unique artistic expression). For example, skip 1-3 meals per week when you are least hungry (i.e. Intermittent Fasting). This one works like gang-busters for me, since I'm not usually hungry at breakfast time, which makes it feel completely unobtrusive. I just have coffee with a splash of almond milk. This is an easy way to cut out 500-1500 calories per week with very little extra attention, but only works if you don't over-compensate.
- Or simply introduce more activity into your routine. Increase your duration and intensity over time and chart if this has an impact on your weight. Adjust accordingly.

There are plenty of other techniques you can apply (S Day limitations, macronutrient manipulation for certain meals, etc, etc, etc)... similar to art, the styles/colors/mediums available are boundless. The point is that building the No S habit, even if it doesn't initially lead to weight loss, is the most important first step. It's like learning to paint if you want to be an artist that works in paints. Once you've mastered the basics, you can look for ways to adjust input without obsessively counting WW points - after all, there are only 15 opportunities each Mon-Fri, so identifying the excess with each one and calculating ways to cut back on that excess without being too restrictive is more approachable than completely overhauling unlimited input opportunities/choices. The process is similar to the way an artist who has mastered the basics of painting and paints with regularity gets better and better at adjusting and doesn't need 'pre-fabricated' suggestions (i.e. WW points) to do so.

If it counts at all, I personally find No S to be more 'artistic' and fulfilling than the 'paint by numbers' plans like Weight Watchers... after all, one system teaches you how to eat and the other simply teaches you how to count Very Happy If you can master No S, you have a tool for life to create the expression you wish. If you simply stick to the paint by numbers books, you might get results more quickly, but you haven't learned anything, you will eventually get bored, and (data indicates) you will probably drop out.

Best of luck to you on your journey!


Thank you so much for this! This made my day. I'm NO S fan now!
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW! I am the original author of this post. How surprising for me to come here this morning and find this on the front page once again. I started the thread in Dec. 2016! I have been doing a lot of reading here this morning and learning from myself. Look at the first post ever on my check-in thread.

I said in Oct. 2010 Shocked

Quote:
Quick Intro here. I'm a 45 year old mother of 4...ages 16,12,8 and 7. I did not have a weight problem as a child. I was very active in high school...ran cross country,track,cheerleading,band. I was nice and trim, but of course "thought" I was fat. Rolling Eyes My weight issues did not start until the age of 28 or so, which was when our first child was born and I began staying home full time. All of my children are adopted, so it was not pregnancy weight that was the issue, but staying home around food all day that was the issue. When my weight started creeping up I joined WW in 1993 and lsot the weight becoming a lifetime member of ww. I lost 15 pounds to acheive that goal. Over the years I have gone back to ww NUMEROUS time...I honestly have no clue how many?? At one point I lost 60 pounds to get back down to my goal. Sadly, for me with ww the weight ALWAYS comes back...plus some. I am now about 70 pounds over that goal. Embarassed

I am very excited about No S because I just can't fathom anymore counting, measuring, eating separate meals than my family, etc. etc. It's just not doable for me long term. I've proven that over and over and over again! No S just makes sense!! As I've grown older my goals are not so much about a number on the scale as they are about improving my health and FEELING more energetic and healthy. I want to feel good in my own skin! I ultimately would like the focus to be off of the food and onto living my life!!! Traditional diets involve way too much focus on the food!!! BLECH!! I'm D-O-N-E with that! I want the freedom that No S offers!

I turned 45 on Oct. 5. My gift to myself is taking steps to a healthier me by my 46th birthday a year from now. My official start date Oct. 13, 2010...Day 1. First goal is getting through the first 21 days without slip ups.
First three days..
GREEN, GREEN and GREEN

ONWARD....

Wishing you all a great weekend!


See that underlined portion there?! I was saying that back in 2010. Some of us (uh..hmmmm...ME) are VERY SLOW learners!! I could write the exact words again TODAY! I don't know how many times I have been back to WW since I origianlly wrote this. Imagine where I would be with these habits if I had just continued to focus on them back in 2010 instead of this continual back and forth to WW?!!! I am now 52 and in the same place as I was back then. I was at a ww meeting on Saturday.....and I am here now! I know I DO have the power to STOP this INSANITY in my head!!! Only *I* can stop it once and for all! I LOATH tracking my food and I KNOW I will NOT continue this for the rest of my life!

There is really nothing else that you beautiful people can add to this post besides what you have all so eloquently said here already!! I need to read this over and over and over and OVER again!!

Thanks for your patience. I refuse to continue to take this issue with me to my grave! I WILL NOT!!

You do not know me in person, but I really am a very smart and sensible person even though it does not appear so from this perspective!!
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A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willpower researcher Roy F. Baumeister said never to underestimate the possible difficulties of changing eating behavior.

The desires will not go away just because we say in our most frustrated moments this has to stop. Why won’t they cooperate!?! I think this is what fools us over and over. The time we have to say this has to stop is right when we want that S and it’s not an S day. I’m sending you strength!

You may not have been asking for suggestions, but I do suggest you save that passage to a file you can keep on your desktop and open every day for awhile. Print a copy to keep with credit cards or cash- Where ever you would pay to buy some foods that just don’t fit your plan.

FYI I was 56 when I committed to No S on December 26, 2009.Just keep going!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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ZippaDee



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Oolala! I can always count on you for support. So, basically what you are saying is that the rant that I just had is going to do me absolutely no good! Laughing I need to remember this when the rubber meets the road! Thanks for the advice about printing this out and reading it! Will do!
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"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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TexArk



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 729
Location: Foothills of the Ozarks

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need to form a WW recovery group. I am not only a previous lifetime member of WW, but a former lecturer! I am 71 years old and first started WW when I was 23 years old and just thought I was overweight. Sigh. Take the advice and read your post and stay the course with NoS. As others have noted, it is really a maintenance program where you will eventually get down to your appropriate weight, albeit slowly, while learning not to obsess over food and developing good habits. And to be perfectly honest, there are times when I stay with the NoS format but will do some counting for a week or so to get on track or to be honest about how much I am actually eating. I just think of it as a temporary NoS modification.
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ZippaDee



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, TexArk! I didn't realize that you had a WW history....a leader too!

I am actually *considering* trying to loosely stick to the foods on the WW simply filling food list. They have a plan where you don't have to count the foods as long as you eat from the foods on this list. Perhaps, I would use this list as a base and come up with my own list of foods based on this list. For example, nuts, avocado, real butter and milk are all foods I feel are ok for me to eat without tedious counting, but are not on the WW simply filling food list. Maybe eat foods from my list within the realm of the NoS rules?! And, continue to go to the meetings for support, but eat my way. lol! IDK?! Or is that a slippery slope as well? Just let it all go?? This is where my mind goes.
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"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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TexArk



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
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Location: Foothills of the Ozarks

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will have to decide, but my thoughts are: DO NOT GO TO THE WW MEETINGS. I think they are all too diet head and weight loss obsessed. Work the NoS plan and gradually let go of WW. In my opinion, again, there are too many "good" and "bad" foods even if you are not counting. Just fill your plates 3 times a day and get your N Days down. Not eating seconds, sweets or snacking is enough. You can gradually adjust what is on your plates after you have the habits down. Also, S Days will have to be gradually dealt with. Have you checked out the sticky on the stages of NoS?

Too much WW stuff going on in our heads is just not helpful. YMMV.
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Soprano



Joined: 08 Mar 2018
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the above, forget ww, until you leave the diet mentality behind nos will be an uphill struggle

Jx
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23/03/2018 11st 3.2lb
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13/07/2018 10st. 9.8lb (BF 36.5%)


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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will step in and say-and sorry for not going back through your posts to get this information- if there is any health condition preset or looming, I recommend you keep that front and center for N days at least and stick to your narrower choices. If you can convince yourself that the payoff in peace of mind-not feeling you are betting on getting spared-, it can hush the thought that the limitations are unfair, which subconsciously is a major reason people game the system.

In the beggining (does this word processing system have spell check, since for some reason I maek a ton of typos posting here? I'm not going to correct them all), a fair number of my meals were, I assume, very close to the filling foods. I had found those meals were satisfying enough to inclue in the mix. I included some of the fat sources you include. I had picked up the habit on Volumetrics, the Omega Diet, modified Zone, 40/30/30, etc. and actually used the on my first and last foray into WW land. I would look at other people's meals on similar calorie limits and be puzzled at how they could possibly be satisfied on the "spindly foods." I thought I got so much bang for my buck!

Maybe you could start the week with all foods and trade a few kinds for each other as the week goes on. And keep to yellow caution on S days. Remind youself that you are choosing to do this because it is a fair trade for what you're getting. Try to be light about it, if you can.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much TexArk, Soprano and Oolala!!!

I know it is probably right that I just need to simply focus on my 3 plates...no sweets, no snacks, no seconds!! I am going to go back and read the book again as I begin. It is all about my head! Therein lies the struggle!

TexArk what does YMMV stand for? I thought I was up on all of these acronyms since I have two teens still at home. lol

Oolala said:


Quote:
Try to be light about it, if you can.


For me, this is key!! I fight perfectionism, which has a negative affect on many things for me. I have improved greatly in this area, but it is still a battle!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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TexArk



Joined: 27 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ha ha...Your mileage may vary.
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ZippaDee



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol! Thanks TexArk! Gotcha! Very Happy
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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ZippaDee



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading through this all again this morning. Want to thank simmstone for the beautiful analogy! I failed to thank you previously. LOVE it!
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"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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sharon227



Joined: 18 May 2018
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of "good foods" and "bad foods" is counter-productive, because "bad" and "forbidden" can make something more alluring. I like to think of it now as "foods that help me feel great" and "foods that are great fuel for my body". As my very wise doctor told me, healthy eating isn't deprivation. It's a kindness to myself.

Once I wean myself off crap for a couple of weeks, I can start paying attention to how various foods make me feel and know what's great for me and what isn't. Some things that I love can be OK in small portions but make me feel lousy if I eat too much.

Basically, I'd like to eat like a classic French woman. It is hard when I live in a society where food is everywhere all the time, and the culture values large quantities of food for as cheap as possible, as opposed to smaller quantities of high-quality (but more expensive) food. No S gives me a framework for automatically valuing smaller quantities of high-quality food, and ignoring workday perma-snacking.

If reading your post every day motivates you to make positive changes in your life, why not do that for awhile! If you start getting angry about backsliding, though, maybe don't. But be sure either way that you've learned something from those past experiences. I know that I have.
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ZippaDee



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharon227 said:

Quote:
healthy eating isn't deprivation. It's a kindness to myself.


YES!! Thank you for that! And, thanks for your post of encouragement! This change needs to come from a place of love and caring for myself rather than a place of disgust!
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"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9193
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the idea of healthy eating being a kindness has to come from the inside, too, in my experience. I had been told that for years; I knew theoretically it was true. But I had to have many multiple pleasurable experiences of eating good quality food before it really started to tip the balance. Yes, this is what I would really prefer MOST of the time (not always, if I'm honest), not subconsciously something I'm putting up with because I'm supposed to.

I'm repeating something I posted on your check -in thread: maybe we should have a WWaholics Anon. thread. Did you count points or calories: success or failure. Wink
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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sharon227



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about the importance of the message coming from inside. For me, in addition to understanding how much better I feel when eating well, I need to remember how lousy I feel when I don't.

Objectively, it is hard to feel like you are being kind to yourself when first trying to wean yourself off of eating crap and you really really crave that ice cream / fried thing / cake / chip / whatever.

Really paying attention to how I feel afterwards every time I eat has helped. It takes me awhile, but eventually I grasp that I like how I feel when I'm not overstuffed with junk.

My problem has been that I can go months or even years eating healthy, but seem to eventually backslide back into junk when unusual life stress hits. What feels different this time is that I'm truly enjoying the way I'm eating now, as opposed to on one level looking forward to the end of "a diet" and the beginning of a less restrictive "maintenance". My meals are enjoyable. Not snacking between meals is still difficult but not nearly as hard as when I started.

Yesterday, I caught myself thinking at lunch that I really seem to be eating a lot of food! Yet it was just a turkey sandwich on a couple of large slices of whole wheat bread, some cole slaw, a peach, a few grapes, and a few slices of low fat cheese all arranged on a single (not small Smile ) plate. Overall, I must be eating less food, though, if my grocery shopping is any indication. It's kind of incredible now when I go to the store and don't bother with all the snack-food aisles anymore.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an inverse relationship between the shiny, colorful packaging and the satiety level of the food inside, IMHO. I still marvel at how many aisles in a supermarket I get absolutely nothing on.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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sharon227



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes! I noticed that too, I am skipping whole areas of the store that I used to shop in!!
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oolala said?

Quote:
maybe we should have a WWaholics Anon. thread. Did you count points or calories: success or failure.


YES!! I think that would be an excellent idea! For me it would need to include accountability as far as looking at any WW related fb groups, etc. I need to stay away from that!!

Sharon227 said:

Quote:
My problem has been that I can go months or even years eating healthy, but seem to eventually backslide back into junk when unusual life stress hits.


YES!! My habits that have been ingrained in me for all of this years take a VERY long time to break and solidify new habits!!

Thanks for the encouragement!
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not my issue so I won't start the thread. I wish I was better at the search function, or maybe it casts a wide net no matter what. But you might look at past general threads to see if there are a few possible compadres. It's my experience that you get only a few anyway, and a small number of loyalists is all it takes. Kind of a subset of the Margaret Mead observation about changing the world.

Although when I'm out and about, especially when grocery shopping or dining at less posh restaurants, it looks like things are going to get worse before they get better, and the getting better is going to be modest. But for health reasons, that's where the most improvement is anyway.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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ZippaDee



Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Oolala. I think I will just use my check in thread for accountability. I am also on a fb group. I feel on the right track. Very Happy
_________________
"Rivers know this: There is no hurry. We shall get there some day." ~Winnie the Pooh ~

A Flower does not think of competing with the flower next to it. It just blooms!

Diets Don't Work.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea. You might occasionally report here so it will bump the thread up and new lurkers can be reminded.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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