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Octavia is finally checking in!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, another N day, though not a particularly good one - I had two small mugs of hot chocolate to get me through, loads of tea and coffee and a bit of juice. I felt hungry and tense a lot, also a bit light headed, though that could be because I hardly slept last night. I had had an annoying meeting at work and couldn’t switch off, feeling angry and anxious, and just couldn’t get comfortable in bed. I was hungry all night, but it was cold and I was too tired to get up and fetch a glass of milk. I hate getting up in the night - I know the insomnia experts advise you to not lie in bed tossing and turning, but I feel so desolate, weird and alone if I go downstairs and sit in the gloom! Today’s food:
B : fried egg on one slice wholemeal toast. Orange juice.
L : three ryvitas with cheese and chutney.
D: a slightly unpleasant beany vegetarian pie thing from Tesco, with mash, broccoli and peas. An apple.

I hate the empty, gnawing, miserable feeling I get, from about 2 and a half hours after a meal onwards. I’m going to go back to stocking the fridge with nice drinks, juices, kefir, milkshakes, the lot. Like I did in my first weeks. I’m not enjoying this grey, gritty feeling. I must remember that it’s order I’m after, more than weight loss - normality and the confidence that comes from knowing I’m not helplessly imposing fatness on myself by virtue of boundless snacks and treats.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hurrah, the scales have shifted downwards a little, and I have edged a little closer to normalsville. Naturally, I now feel motivated to have a slightly less mad S day...always bearing in mind that one must not react to the scale! If you eat less when it goes down, then...well most of us know that other side of that coin very well.

I ‘made’ Danish pastries this morning (from a dough kit! 😊). They are real sugar-bombs. A nice treat though. I’m really loving this sense of treating myself, guilt-free and (more) appropriately on weekends. It is such a bonus of No S. Though I think back to the week and think ‘how did I endure all that hunger, all that tension, waiting and postponing, just for this?’ Either my stomach/hormones will adapt to not eating between meals, or I must try to help myself a bit more on N days. The thing is, I don’t have a big appetite at meal times, and I don’t want to force more food in than I really want. (Is that a bit ‘intuitive eating’?) So I would rather have calorific drinks in between meals, than to train my stomach to accept more solid food. Hey, if anyone out there has a perspective on this, do let me know! Bigger meals on N days, or accept the need for calorific drinks? Or just tolerate the hunger?

One thing I’ve noticed is that I sometimes get distracted half way through a meal. Yesterday, I intended to follow the ryvitas and cheese with an apple and handful of nuts. But I got engrossed in my work at the laptop again, and forgot. Once an hour had passed since the ryvitas, I thought it was too late to have my little dessert, and it would count as a snack.

This is probably sounding like the obsessed ramblings of a lunatic dieter....’OMG! Am I allowed an apple and ten hazelnuts? Help!’ 😱 But I think I need to clock this tendency to let my mind wander back to work when it should be focussed on giving my body the fuel it needs.

Speaking of which....the Danish pastries are calling!

Hope everyone has a good couple of S days.
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milliem



Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the distraction is something about trying to work and eat at the same time - I feel the pain of working through lunch but sometimes you just have to down tools (keyboard...) for 10 minutes and eat! I am sometimes so busy at work that I do barely have 10 minutes to sit down and don't manage to eat all my planned lunch. In those situations I might eat anything else I had planned when I get the chance, depending how long it might be until my next meal and how hungry I am.

I'm more at peace with hunger between meals now and it doesn't tend to make me too tense. It's not a disaster to feel hungry, and you can just make sure your next plate is nice and filling. I think there is something in limiting calorific drinks between meals, so your body isn't signalling 'feed me!' every couple of hours.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that you need anyone else chiming in, it seems to me that the caloric beverage is meant for exactly that kind of situation. (But getting past hunger to sleep may have had good effects, too. )

I agree that No S is so mild in comparison with so many other reduction programs that it can get around the Riley no rules recommendation. Besides, her system has two "rules, " too, which are to choose how much you will eat right when you sit down to your eating event, and to choose the next time eat right at the end of your eating event. Plus no limits on sweets. Then face the desire when it comes as being at the root of the problem. Besides the No S three-meal limit, that sounds pretty close, and freer in side-stepping some of the rebellion because of looking forward to the S events. She seems to me to speak her mind on sugar problems pretty often. She makes no bones about revealing that she eats low carb and includes potatoes in the list of major problems along with flour and all sugar. I have come to agree on the flour stuff for me, but I'm not a purist. It came over time and I think her bringing the issue up right away may be a detriment to the weaning process.

I just can't believe 'taters need to be in the same category as "processed particle foods" (my label) when eaten in the full form, not as a supremely adulterated snack food. Guyenet cites research that showed that plain potatoes were #1 in an experiment on the satiety level of about 50 foods. The most intensely flavored foods (sweet/salt) were the least.

Her main premise is that free choice is crucial from minute one. You can choose to eat, but you can also choose not to, and the power comes in making the choice freely so you aren't bitter later. Plus she reports that brain scans show that the areas of planning and future choice are activated by an active choice rather than a dictated one.
I believe some people are so convinced right away that they want to change that it constitutes that kind of choice without re-deciding every day. We all know of people who get "religion" when they have a health scare, or have such a epiphany about their eating that they turn things around overnight. I believe they are motivated by that level of inner choice so that in most cases, when the urges come, they are so convinced that it's in their best interest that they choose to ignore it without a great deal of resistance.

I suspect that it takes a very long time for her followers to get to eating moderately on a consistent basis. The reward foods are so seductive! Overeaters hate the feelings of any kind of hunger, fake or real, so much that they will do a lot to avoid it, including believing they are damaging themselves but not obeying it when it comes. But it's not personal, I don't think,m meaing it's once again a brain/habit thang. So many people on Spark talk at first about how much they don't feel like eating a certain food and later getting the yen back with little ability to face it down, or those who keep feeling it's oh so hard, which smacks of not really believing holding back is a fair imposition. People rebel against what they consider unfair, or at least resent it, so it's harder for them to magnify the positive effects, which is so useful in solidifying the new habits. I feel for them, and wish they would back off themselves until it seems truly imperative to change and not just after a binge, when the urge cycle is at its lowest ebb. They'll say so"loudly", "This is the day! This must end!" As if that means they can control whether or not they'll get the urge to overeat again. Then be so mad at themselves for being so weak. it's heartless! I think real determination rarely actually happens in that distraught state. It is better to feel calm and just very rational about it. It might start with radical changes or just giving up soda, but a lot less willpower is needed to get it and keep it going under those circumstances. IMHO.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.


Last edited by oolala53 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Imogen Morley



Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavia, I've read your thread with great interest. I can totally relate to so many of your insights! One thing I wanted to mention regarding wild S-days: at my longest vanilla streak, I binged pretty much every weekend, and still lost 10 percent of my body weight without any modifications to the original rules. After some time (a year or so, I think) my NoS habits really did bleed over. Sadly, I walked away from NoS for a couple of years, so now I have to start over again and go through the wild S-days phase - we're pretty much in the same place right now! Anyway, rest assured that S-days DO get better. Don't worry about them at this point, focus on N-days. And that comes from me, a self-confessed cake addict Smile
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automatedeating



Joined: 31 Aug 2013
Posts: 2111

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Imogen, I've read your thread with interest!

I still say -- drink the drinks if you need them. You probably won't always need them.

Keep writing -- it's good stuff!
_________________
I am a small person. Therefore, it is reasonable that smaller portions will satisfy me.
8/13: BMI 26.3
up and down between BMI 24 and 26.9 over 4 years
8/17: BMI 25.8
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Imogen and Auto!

Imogen, thanks for stopping by and leaving those nice comments! I was really reassured to read that your S days were often wild. I have eaten piles of chocolate this past weekend. I hope the same thing will happen to me - that I will still lose 10% of my body weight by doing Vanilla. That would be perfect for me. It’s interesting that you were lured away after a while, but have returned. This is all very encouraging to me! You have definitely helped to firm up my commitment to just carrying on as I am doing. I am succeeding in doing the N day routine (this is miraculous to me, always a failing, half-hearted dieter). There are hints on the scale that weight may be being lost...hard to tell, as it goes up and down, and this morning I was back at my starting point! Though just two days ago I was 3lb down, which believe me was a very novel sight.

Auto, thanks for the drinks advice. Today I’m committed to not making myself suffer. If I need a glass of orange juice, I will have one.

Good luck with your Monday, everyone!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intrigued by the ‘Shop related products’ links that pop up at the bottom of the page. Today, rather than seeing diet books and sugar-free produce, Ive been offered books by great philosophers! Someone must be impressed by my check-in thread! 😂😂😂
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...just looking at my Habitcal, and I see that I’ve done 38 N days since the 9th of December, when I started No S. I’ve had 24 S days (including 2 sick days) and 4 fails. So the Ns are just in the lead. Hurrah! I wonder if there’s some sort of ‘golden ratio’ that ensures weight loss on No S? I’m no mathematician, so I will park that thought right there....😊

Today’s menu:
Breakfast - egg on toast.
Lunch - ham and cheese toastie.
Dinner - cauliflower cheese with tomatoes and a few pasta twirls.

One glass of juice, one cappuccino, and the rest of my drinks were just normal tea, coffee, herbal tea.

Wow, I used to eat so much fruit - about 3 pieces a day. I’m now getting about one piece a day, or a glass of juice. It feels like it’s enough. For me, fruit can make me feel a bit empty and gassy, and I always found myself needing a bit of cheese or some nuts to go with it. So I’m not missing it.

I’m sure I felt a bit slimmer today. But although that’s a nice feeling, I’ve learned not to pay too much attention to such things. I can feel how I like. It has nothing to do with reality. I say this because so often I feel fat, and that too is an illusion. The real question is, how’s my eating?

Oh dear, I’ve brushed my teeth and my tummy is rumbling. Dinner was 4 hours ago. Will I sleep, I wonder?
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have added: thanks Oolala for your insights back on Saturday! It is such a relief that I have found a fellow member of the ‘School for Gillian Riley Studies!’ 😉 I would love to get an idea of her success rate. Just imagine if she had a forum like No S! I bet it would be a very busy, interesting place.

Interested in what you said, that managing to get past hunger to get to sleep may have had good effects. When I’ve managed that, it’s amazing that I don’t wake up ravenous...but the stomach seem to pacify itself during the night.

Must turn out the light now...and hopefully this slight hunger will pass.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...also thanks to milliem for stopping by! You’ll be glad to know I am eating a bigger breakfast today, with two rashers of bacon, an egg, and a giant mushroom which I baked in the oven with bit of olive oil...seems to have come out quite well. I feel that I need to eat a little more at meals, not get distracted half way through the meal, and know that the drinks are there in times of real need. Part of the point of No S is that you learn to eat better st meals, knowing that you can’t snack. I mustn’t forget this.

At the moment, I’m switching back to N days with no trouble. I have no cravings for snacks or sweets, preferring to save them for the weekend...it’s like I am really learning that they can’t help me that much, and permanacking is like flogging a dead horse (real pleasure and satisfaction never actually come). Of course, this may change. I am currently in a phase of relative autonomy and low stress, with minimal disruption to my preferred routine. (An angelic choir is singing as I write those rare words!)

Can’t tell whether I’m really losing weight, though. But I’m experiencing other rewards, for sure.
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Imogen Morley



Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that permasnacking is almost never enjoyable. Wondering why we do it then? Because we're tired with exercising constant control over our eating? I've read some study claiming that we snack when we're bored, as a way to stimulate dopamine production and to break up the feeling of monotony, so it's not even about seeking pleasure.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and relating to that, Imogen, I’ve read that all stimulation is in some way rewarding. So no wonder we keep on grabbing snacks, to feel something - anything rather than the boredom and sameness that seem to offend our brains. The pleasure does end - these last few weekends I’ve found myself thinking ‘well, I’m now well and truly full, and I really don’t want any more food....so what can I do to get my fix?’ The answer at the moment on S days is to wait a while then eat again! Maybe the periods when I wait will get longer, and permasnacking will become ‘frequent snacking’ ....then ‘occasional snacking and finally, forgetting to snack! That would be amazing.

I wonder if the No S idea of fasting between meals gives me a little challenge, that is in itself stimulating and anti-boredom? I feel that something about this routine is motivating me...and it’s certainly not the promise of extreme weight loss! When I was calorie counting, that was my ‘carrot’: I sacrificed the excitement of chocolate in exchange for the excitement of getting slimmer. As I got older and weight loss slowed, motivation became elusive. Even the ‘game’ of hitting the calorie target ceased to counteract the lack of satisfaction that stemmed from eating lots of small meals and snacks every day. At that point, I really felt lost; I didn’t know how else to diet. But the psychological mechanism of No S seems to be working for me. I feel it’s changing me on a cellular level, somehow! I so hope I can keep this up. I’m definitely taking your advice Imogen, and staying Vanilla for now!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B: big baked mushroom, egg, 2 bacon rashers
L: carrot soup, two slices of bread and butter, banana
D: Prawn stir fry, apple

No juice today, but had glass of milk before bed.

Don’t know why I’m listing my food. It’s just part of the ritual, and feels quite satisfying, now I’m only listing three eating events!

I’ve been entirely sedentary today. I started work in the morning and just ploughed on compulsively until my project was finished. Weather was very cold and wet, so not much incentive to go out. I have lapsed on my running, since the last bad cold stopped me in my tracks back in January, and I’m feeling ambivalent about starting again. I’m not sure what I was really achieving. Probably just a bit of fresh air and exercise, nothing more, nothing less.
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Imogen Morley



Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 899

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know exactly why we choose eating to stimulate ourselves, but the dopamine theory seems plausible. I've read that when boredom strikes and thoughts about food resurface, finding some dopamine-stimulating activity helps. What surprised me was that cleaning was considered one of the best solutions, due to repetitive movements (much like bringing food to mouth, which is also more or less rhythmic) and its effects that are clearly visual. I also remember seeing Tetris, puzzles, listening to music, singing, exercise, and creative work on the list. Now, if I would just practise what I preach...
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s really interesting Imogen - the idea of seeking activities with repetitive movements that create visual results! I must think of some of these. One of my problems is that in those low, food-craving moods, I feel under pressure to ‘do something proper’ - something genuinely meaningful or creative, or perhaps something that really needs to be done, such as sorting paperwork or making a difficult phone call. In fact, snacking is a great way of procrastinating. I remember once reading in The Women’s Comfort Book by a Jennifer Louden how sometimes we eat because it counts as doing something. Laying in a hammock reading romance novels doesn’t count as doing something, as she put it! It really made me think.

Part of my problem, then, is that I’m unwilling to give myself those simple, dopamine-releasing tasks that you describe, being hung up on doing something more important yet lacking the energy and resolve. This ties in with something Oolala has said, about needing to learn how to actually live, as much as how to eat. Apologies to Oolala if I have mis-paraphrased you!

But your words have reminded me that there’s value in those seemingly mundane tasks such as cleaning. I wonder, if I did more of these tasks, my morale would lift enough to get on with the more challenging stuff.

Here’s an example of my occasionally self-defeating behaviour: I’ve often looked longingly at those adult colouring books, but won’t get myself one because art is a serious hobby of mine, and I should be doing it properly. Of course I end up doing neither colouring nor serious art, but eating chocolate!!!! But colouring, like cleaning, or maybe sorting my vast collection of makeup, would be a great dopamine-releasing activity.

Ah well, better get on with my day! Thanks for stopping by, Imogen, hope your day goes well.
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worth it



Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Octavia,

Thanks for stopping by my thread earlier. I wanted to tell you that I looked up Trinny and Susannah and realized they hosted a show like we had in the US with Clinton and Stacy called What Not to Wear, which is (sadly) off the air as well. I have ordered the book you recommended (which was only sold as a used copy) and ironically it's shipping from the UK, so will likely take awhile to get here, but I'm still excited. In fact, it's got me looking into other fashion related books to help me get back some of my lost self-esteem in this area. Thanks again!

By the way, interesting topic being discussed by you and Imogen on your thread. Maybe the next time I find myself wanting to eat for boredom's sake, I will play Tetris (a game I LOVE)!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope you like the book, Worth it! I suppose it’s a few years old now, but Trinny and Susannah were never about ‘fashion’, but shapes and colours, or ‘aesthetics’: I once heard an artist friend admiring them because of that. They are funny and self-effacing, too. You will get your mojo back! I definitely believe these things go up and down. We have never ‘lost it’ ...it just goes dormant at certain times.

I’m having a slightly strange day. Woke up after a rather disturbed night feeling a bit off-colour, and later had some unpleasant digestive disturbances! 🙁 I can’t go into any more detail! But I thought back to my mad S weekend, and wondered if the excess chocolate could be affecting me now. I often get a mild queasy feeling when I’m anxious, but on the other hand, feeling unwell can spark off anxiety. I can never tell which is to blame, physical stuff or mental stuff.

One thing I’ve known about anxiety for many years is that seemingly paradoxical things are often true: for instance, you have to worry about yourself less, yet look after yourself more. And whether symptoms are caused by mental or physical processes, you must look after yourself all the same. In a way it doesn’t matter how symptoms originated, because self-care is the answer to both.

So.... I’ve put a decent dinner in the oven, and hopefully will feel a bit more rosy-cheeked when I’ve eaten properly.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did and do plenty of un-useful things between meals. I'm pretty sure what I said was something I stole that from a decades -ago OA maxim: three meals a day and life in between. Life in between is MUCH harder than not eating!

I spent many hours watching TV, researching eating habits of traditoinal cultures' eating patterns in support of No S, as well as other topics. I avoided so many activities that others would have thought as much more productive,including me . I guess in a way I traded one obsession for another. Sure, I wish I had the housework or Great American Novel writing obsession instead! But here we are. And in the book 50 Ways to Soothe Yourself Without Food by Susan Albers she lists things like flipping through a magazine. I hope it's not one about food or the perfect body. But whatever works.

The visual element can be delightful A made bed, and empty sink. I've had more of those and they are very cool, but they haven't stuck...yet. Okay. off to do both!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was starving before dinner, and sorted out the two little drawers of makeup I keep in the bathroom. It was distracting and fun, and is definitely a worthwhile thing to do instead of eating!

Wondering what kind of S days I will have. I have an inclination to be less wild this weekend. Perhaps I’ve really started to clock the malaise it can bring, and the way it undermines one’s enjoyment of meals. Maybe my tolerance of sugary stodge has started to diminish! This feels sad in a way! I can no longer enjoy the big dopamine hit of wolfing a huge bar of chocolate! Oh no! It’s as if sort of virtual gastric band has been out in place (hey, has anyone else tried those Hypnotic Gastric Band videos on YouTube? They help you get to sleep, I can say that for them....😂😂).

The ironic thing is, of course, I still yearn for a nice fix of some kind, and if I can’t get it from chocolate, then....I suppose I will have to become a non-addict! 😮 can I tolerate a life of chocolate sobriety? 😭
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your comment on malaise struck home. I don't know if it's accurate or not, but I had some weepy, discouraged, and weary thoughts and feelings last weekend and it occurred to me that they were similar to ones I had after active binging. It seemed very likely that the "chemicals" were a stimulus to those thoughts and feelings. I mean, if psychiatric drugs can help people stop having hallucinations or depressed thoughts, couldn't a substance bring on unpleasant ones? I already knew that they are part of the cycle, so will make the repeat behavior more likely.

I had just added to my list why I want to stay with moderation (and that now means very few S's). If the thoughts/feelings come back as strongly without the S's, well, so be it. I can still ride the waves for now. But if they don't, it will give me even more reasons to stay clear and not be as resentful because I'll see/be reminded a new/former payoff.

I find that some mediations or lectures about meditation or turning on a video of one of the spiritual teachers at night can send me off. I'm always torn because I would like the benefit of the meditation/knowledge but I sleep so little that I'll take what I can!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Oolala. I’ve often wondered whether chocolate binges are not just a consequence of low feelings, but an active stimulant of low feelings. Putting it like that, it sounds darn obvious, but what I mean specifically is that the habit ‘knows’ that a depressed mood is the best way it can get you to indulge. I certainly started to feel that these moods were in part an illusion, a function of the ‘addiction’. Immediately after a choc binge, I used to actually feel better - but gradually, a cloud would descend, that I thought was ‘life’. It was probably just part of the cycle of my habit. I still have low moods, but I think something in my mental landscape has changed since I stopped using food treats as a crutch. I don’t feel so hopeless, as if everything is ‘crap’, if you’ll excuse my French. 😊 (it goes without saying that my life is actually one of relative privilege and comfort, and I have no right to complain!!!)

What you experienced last weekend sounds very like the sort of mood that those old bingeing habits can create. It’s certainly a reminder to stick to moderation, which you seem to do incredibly well! Hope this weekend is a more pleasant one for you.

I’m sure part of the reason that New Age meditation videos are great for sleep is that we are generally trying NOT to fall asleep when we listen! Actual sleep tapes seem to spark off a sort of rebellion in me! As the voices go ‘...I will prepare you for a night of deeeeep, refreshing, restoring, peeeeeeeaceful sleeeeep’, I am saying ‘oh no you won’t!’. Good old reverse psychology!
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree completely about the low mood possibly being a reason the brain makes up to get to another binge. Though I had plenty of low moods-generalized anxiety here- my first few years (and beyond) but I saw that it only got worse later with eating, as it was rarely just a nibble. That's why I tell people on my Living Binge Free team on Sparkpeople that it is entirely possible to separate emotions from eating. They are two different issues. I used to think if the situation came up that led to discouragement, and I couldn't change the problem, I had to eat- or I should be able to. I finally saw that I couldn't wait to solve the chronic problems and I couldn't wait not to have the urges. I had to go through the experience without food. It wasn't fun! But it was better than before. It certainly didn't damage me to wait out the urges! I saw that I just had to keep getting past the peak. Giving in before that just makes it willing to get stronger the next time.
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Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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automatedeating



Joined: 31 Aug 2013
Posts: 2111

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this ties in with your two's deep discussion, but I certainly experienced a weird-ness on my drive home from a big day outing today. It's Friday, I was looking forward to pizza or MdD's or some other comfort-food -- and realizing I shouldn't do that (it's not in my best long-term health interest) sparked a seed of depression in me. It didn't last too long, but I realized my body was looking for the euphoria, and when I reminded it that food wasn't going to be it's Friday night euphoria, it felt sad.

I think refined carbs/fast food serves as my personal addiction cycle, rather than one specific refined carb - chocolate! Laughing
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ladybird30



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rarely eat chocolate, not because I don't like it, but because even a small amount gives me a lift. And of course, that means the down side after the lift is over. I prefer to keep myself on an even keel as much as possible.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ladybird, Auto and Oolala! This is surely one of our major challenges, to separate eating from dealing from our feelings. Often, it does seem as if there’s no other way to reach euphoria (to use your word, Aotomated). Can we reach euphoria another way? Or can we experience a better, deeper satisfaction than our food euphoria?

Like you Oolala, I’m currently taking a music class, but the tiny increments of achievement I experience barely match up to the big, instant, reward of a chocolate binge. I improve so gradually that I can barely feel it happening, and often there’s an unpleasant confusion, or discouragement to use your word, as I probe ahead with the exercises (I’m sure my ego is as tender as yours! 😊 ) But this is how life is, and I need to learn to make more fuss, feel more excited about my progress. Because it’s probably my fault that I downplay my achievement, by focusing on all the stuff I can’t yet do! Perhaps we can indeed learn to gain a greater sense of reward in everyday life? This is taking me back to my first ever self-help book, by Cherie Carter-Scott: ‘Negaholics’. The one thing I took away from that book is that the brain notices and replicates what we make the most fuss of...so when we fail to reward ourselves for making the bed, the behaviour is unlikely to be replicated. When we yell at ourselves for eating the chocolate, our brain somehow enjoys the stimulation, and that behaviour is more likely to be repeated.

I really need to marvel more, at the good things in my life, and even the good things in myself, instead of feeling the constant likelihood of being caught out for all my weaknesses. This is the ‘negative bias’, isn’t it? Just like we’re engineered to overeat, we are engineered to stay safe and believe that a tiger is just around the corner. Perhaps those two attitudes are equally redundant in our modern world (I know there are indeed many dangers out there, but I suspect that I can defy many of the ones I feel apply to me...fear of looking stupid, being a loser, etc etc!!!) I’m going to keep the idea of euphoria, and marvelling, in my mind today, and see if I can reverse my negative bias a bit! I reckon negativity is my way of feeling safe in the world....less likely to be caught out, taken by surprise.

My first step will be to make (a very late) breakfast, and see if I can really relish every bite.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote such a long response that I felt like I was bogarting too much (me! me! me!) and moved the post to my thread. It's certainly a repeat of what i've said there before more than once but long enough ago that it's too much trouble to look back.

Kisses to all!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh! Am flying over to your thread to read this response. 🙂
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s been a busy Sunday, and it’s salutary to realise that the dormant cravings and capacity for chocolate quickly return, once N day rules are set aside. Just one small snack leads quickly to another. I find myself too full for dinner...so I have another snack. Then I need a boost, so it’s a sweet treat. Snacking truly does lead to chaos. It’s a downward spiral. It doesn’t require a low mood - just a snack can start off the cycle.

Today, I was tucking into a big bar of caramel filled chocolate around 5pm when DH expressed a desire to go for a pizza for dinner. We had both been working and were too tired to cook. So, I thought, shall I save this chocolate as an extra dessert for when we get home? That’s what I’d normally do. But I realised that I was nearing that danger zone, the heart rate going up a bit, the tummy already protesting at the idea of the pizza, let alone pizza plus chocolate. So I wondered whether I should throw the chocolate away: that could be a significant, liberating act! In the event, I decided to keep it in the fridge for next weekend. This is a big test for me! I mean, I could go down and eat it now! It’s still Sunday, still an S day!

But I hated going out, not really being hungry, and I felt really stressed and tired in the restaurant (DD and DH were both annoying me, and I thought the waitress was borderline rude...fortunately I did relax and felt OK as the meal went on). I skipped dessert. And now, well I think eating that half a bar of chocolate could make me feel sick and unable to sleep. I seriously do not intend to eat it. My S day is over. I have treated myself enough. It will have to stay in the fridge all week! I’m hoping it will act as a reminder of how I was able to put my body’s needs first....rather than acting as a willpower-draining temptation all week. We shall see.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. Weighed myself this morning, and once again I’m back at my starting point, as I am every Monday. Two months and no weight loss! I would never have endured this in my dieting days! Is this normal? During the week I gradually go down 2-3 lb, then on the weekend it comes back up. Well this can’t be true fat gain and loss, can it, as that would mean thousands and thousands of calories being either burned up or ingested. Perhaps this is maintenance! Maybe I will never lose weight on No S, but just stay as I am, a mere few pounds overweight. That’s actually a good outcome, when you consider that I was in a pattern of slow but unstoppable weight gain before. On the other hand, maybe my S days will continue to modify themselves, and my ability to endure hunger on N days will improve, and I will start to lose weight.

Let’s face it, I am eating about 1,200 extra calories of treats and snacks every weekend (though my actual meals get smaller in response). It’s quite likely that this is indeed cancelling out the calories I work so hard to avoid on N days.

I’m a bit worried that suddenly the thought will pop into my head that No S is insane! Gaining and losing the same 3lb over and over again! Maybe that’s why I didn’t stick it out before. I thought I was using piles of willpower in return for no results. But something has changed in me this time. Rather than using willpower, I feel I’m gaining willpower. And there’s a quality of enjoyment in the routine that I value. The meals taste better and the treats are more valued, even if they’re not quite filling that emotional void as they used to...not working as crutches. But that’s a good thing!

Anyway...bottom line is, I feel really glad to be on an N day, knowing my gut will have a rest before lunch and again before dinner. This surely has got to be the reason I stick with No S... I like doing it!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually went out on a run today. This is the first time since I had my last cold, back in January. Somehow I didn’t get back into exercise for a long time...a bit like my experience of No S, the results of exercise are subtle, and I just couldn’t get fired up about starting again. Media images show transformed lives and bodies. My body has learned to tolerate running, and this is a sort of miracle, but it’s the same old body, same old life.

I do recognise a pattern though, that often I am drawn to do things, then decide that they are ‘pointless’. So this morning, I decided to do it just to prove to myself that I can do things! I said ‘I can and I will.’ It had no more ‘point’ or purpose than that... just to be a person who does stuff, rather than a person with a tendency to inertia. This is a good motto for me - ‘I am a person who does stuff’!!
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milliem



Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 1153

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavia wrote:
Hmmm. Weighed myself this morning, and once again I’m back at my starting point, as I am every Monday. Two months and no weight loss! I would never have endured this in my dieting days! Is this normal? During the week I gradually go down 2-3 lb, then on the weekend it comes back up. Well this can’t be true fat gain and loss, can it, as that would mean thousands and thousands of calories being either burned up or ingested. Perhaps this is maintenance! Maybe I will never lose weight on No S, but just stay as I am, a mere few pounds overweight. That’s actually a good outcome, when you consider that I was in a pattern of slow but unstoppable weight gain before. On the other hand, maybe my S days will continue to modify themselves, and my ability to endure hunger on N days will improve, and I will start to lose weight.



I am in the exact same place in my NoS journey - early ish days, no real weight loss but generally good compliance. What I'm trying to remind myself of is that NoS really is about maintenance. It's the way I want to eat for the rest of my life. Also I'm sure that I read somewhere that naturally thin people eat slightly more on weekends and adjust during the week, so I think the whole gain/lose/gain/lose of a couple of pounds is pretty normal!

I am hoping that S days calm down over the coming weeks and that eventually I won't be reaching for every possible snack and sweet treat and not eating all those extra calories. If it doesn't happen naturally I am prepared to implement some mods on S days but probably not until next month at the earliest. I'm thinking maybe allowing sweets after meals but not snacks between meals could work for me. Or no solitary snacking, something like that. Maybe a mod could work for you but many people here have advised caution in applying them too early, I suppose the danger is that it leads to feeling more restricted, and increasing risk of N day failures.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Milly, it’s good to be your No S buddy! Sounds like we are very much in the same place. Like you, I don’t feel quite ready to implement an S day mod. The N day habits are working too well for me to want to jeopardise them.

I think if I did apply a mod to my weekends, it would be to avoid snacking, and to incorporate treats into my meals. But I’m going to see if that happens naturally - I do suspect that it might.

I’m so glad to have stopped my compulsive snacking and treating, I almost don’t care if I stay this weight!
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Vanilla day. I’m struggling far less to endure the gaps between meals. I’ve been out every evening this week and have just had a small mug of milk or hot chocolate before bed. Vanilla is suiting me so well.

Sad that I didn’t get out for a run today, but I had too much work, then had to scramble to get out to my evening music class - was 20’ late. I’m reminded of Reinhard’s advice, not to hold the crazy expectation that just because you really get into some form of exercise, that time will miraculously open up for you to do it. Maybe we believe that our struggles to find time are just an excuse, because we haven’t truly committed ourselves to exercise. But no, it turns out that really, we don’t have time. I enjoy my runs, slow as I am, and I’ve started to wonder if I can indeed improve in speed and stamina, given time. So I’m motivated. But there still isn’t time. I’m not even finding time for my 14’ of anything. This is because I’ve taken on more work, out of money and career insecurity. I must try to regain my balance.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a funny thought today. I have always spurned cellulite creams and toning gels, as they are all bunkum, as we all know. BUT!!! just imagine if, instead of attempting to diet, I had put my energy into massaging in those creams and gels for a few minutes every day for the past 20 years. I bet they would have had a more positive effect than all the dieting in the world! I would now have lovely soft skin all over, and have done a bit of bending, stretching and rubbing at the same time. Where has dieting got me, except fatter? Bring on the cellulite creams!

I’m half joking of course, but today it occurred to me that it could be a fun part of my ‘14’ of anything’ routine if I rubbed some body lotion into my wobbly arms energetically. I might even go and buy some sort of fancy French toning gel! An expensive ‘creme Minceur ‘ !!! (is this behaviour covered by Reinhard’s motto ‘don’t be an idiot’?? 😂)

Am definitely developing the attitude that superficial, cosmetic instant-fixes are so much more effective (in making us feel and look better) than the hard work of dieting. I still think that vanity can be a healthy impulse - part of a natural pride in our physicality. But weight doesn’t have that much to do with it. It’s more about grooming - in an enjoyable, not oppressive, way.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
Posts: 167
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the first time in two months, I’ve woken up on a Saturday morning with no impulse to eat treats. I have no appetite for them. I wonder if this feeling will last, or whether I’ll still somehow be compelled to get myself something that counts as a treat? I still have a happy, S day feeling, though. Is this part of the mysterious magic of No S?

Haven’t weighed myself, even though today is traditionally the lightest and most gratifying morning. Somehow I can’t be bothered, and it’s certainly not acting as a helpful incentive. The good news is that I don’t feel I need that incentive, as I am reaping such great rewards from the system. Mostly, really enjoying my food, and secondly, not always looking for a fix. This feels like a relief, rather than losing my crutch!
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 8708
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enjoy the effects as they are! There are no guarantees that changes are linear. They usually aren't! It's more about the trends. You can't really see a trend on any one or two days. But it's very good to reflect on and enjoy the pleasures you DO experience.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Dec/17 23.8

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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