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oolala53
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've let myself go cuckoo eating this week and darn if I haven't found that it actually has helped to overeat in response to stress. But today is the final day I will have a glut of meetings that I feel wrenched over prepping for. BTW I'm STILL waiting for information from two colleagues that I need information for for a meeting TODAY, information that I have asked for three times. I finally, now that I'm in my last full time semester, had a sense of oh, well, I guess this isn't the end of the world. Though that particular parent had an advocate at the last meeting.

So back to sanity today. I don't imagine it will necessarily go easy as the body has gotten used to frequent eating and overages. But there's no good reason to continue.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I take a med that helps for sleep. Last night, I was disappointed when I woke around 3 and knew I wasn't going to be able to get back to sleep. I got online until I decided to wash my hair. How could the med work for so few hours? Then when I later went in the kitchen, I saw the two tabs sitting out waiting for me to take them. So instead of being miffed that I didn't get more sleep, I was really glad for the sleep I was able to get without them!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
Posts: 1004
Location: Pennsylvania, US

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've let myself go cuckoo eating this week and darn if I haven't found that it actually has helped to overeat in response to stress


My son recently went off to college and found himself eating a lot of food he normally wouldn't consider eating (he's a vegetarian runner and very aware of how food effects his performance) Not sure how but he came across a youtube video explaining why stress eating works. It went into brain chemicals etc The long and short of it is: There are good reasons and part of our genetic make up. I agree though, the hard part is stopping once the stressful situation passes.

Hope your last stressful day goes well even without the required input from co-workers.
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 402
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oohlala, I have been taking melatonin for a few months because hot flashes (oh joy!) wake me up frequently. I feel ya.
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lpearlmom



Joined: 02 Aug 2013
Posts: 3841
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear--I woulda been relieved too to see those pills! Sorry about all the stress eating but sounds like it was planned and expected. Back to N(ormal) days come Monday I take it?
_________________
"Above all, be the heroine of your life and not the victim.” Nora Ephron

3/14-210 lbs;
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Linda. Back to it yesterday. The worst is over and I have no good excuse anymore, if work stress was a good excuse in the first place. Conveniently, I didn't really want the foods I had been "using." I did stop at Costco for yogurt and had a couple of samples. (There weren't many; I was a little surprised because I thought the closer it gets to the weekend, the more samples there are. Just as well for me...) Then I had a nice starchy dinner (with corn and couscous). Ahhhh.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My eating week is about as good as my last couple of days, which have been good. I don't think I did anything egregious before that, but I don't feel the solidity I used to when I rarely questioned whether I was going to be green. I did stop at Costco again for tastes. I've decided that's an acceptable mod for now. I wandered quite a bit, left with nothing-yay, me- and ended up topping my total steps to nearly 12,000 spread throughout the day. Had a potato fest dinner: yukon gold, red, and sweet.

I got a small shock before work this morning. I had put my hair up and was looking at the back in the mirror, the hand-held one at a different angle than usual and I saw two balding spots right where a receding hairline would be except they were about an inch back, so not visible looking in the mirror straight on. But taller people have probably been seeing them for a long time! Is this because of my job or just kismet? OK gray hair I expect, wrinkles I expect, but I have always had very thick hair. Why can't it just thin out all over? that's prolly what men say, too.

I have been sleeping terribly even with meds. At least tonight/tomorrow I can drift back to sleep in the morning if I have to. It is amazing how good I can feel after a night of split sleep, as long as I get that second stint.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
Posts: 1004
Location: Pennsylvania, US

PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how we can feel so "solid" for a long time then something comes along (or seemingly nothing) and we're back on shakey ground. I've heard recovering alcoholics talk about this. Apparently, you're never free from the possibility the old urges will resurface it's just that the longer you can resist acting on them the less pull they have. Congratulations with your Costco success. I never enter because I'll walk out with $200 worth of things I don't need.

Man! The hair thing is a surprise! I know you keep yours long and are a bit proud of it. Perhaps a trip to the Dr. Is in order. It could be stress or it could (perhaps) be a side effect of your meds. My one and only vanity is my hair. Like you, I can accept grey but loss would make me cry.

Hope your weekend goes smoothly.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TX, gp. I think I have a follow-up appt. tomorrow with doctor. Will ask about hair thing. but I suspect it's age and keeping it pulled back.

I've never really been immune to urges. Have kept my sweet tooth, but dealing with it isn't usually torture, though recently, I've gotten exasperated with the whole thing. A senior English class I coteach in is reading Fast Food Nation and it's a little embittering to see how much big business gets to call the shots and the public is fooled. But I think someone else posted perhaps on the general discussion board how it's actually frightening how much of our economy is built on the fast food/snack food/convenience food industries. If all the public bought like I do, a lot of jobs would be lost.

I found a simple hutch for 35 bucks at a semi-estate sale yesterday to replace a now dilapidated piece I bought used in 1983 for 40 bucks! I spent most of the day moving stuff around and of course there's still a big mess. I have papers to grade. I think I'm feeling sick enough ( Rolling Eyes ) to use one of the 90 days I've racked up since 1999. (That's nearly a whole semester!)
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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lpearlmom



Joined: 02 Aug 2013
Posts: 3841
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh, sorry about the hair! Getting older is certainly challenging. :/

I really admire your thriftiness! We have these fairly new end tables in our living room from pottery barn and that decorator lady told me I needed to "upgrade" these. I was like geeesh, it's not like they're from ikea or target or something. They were pretty costly and I think they're nice.

She also told me to only put hardback books in our bookcases (where am I suppose to store the soft ones?). Oh and our pillows are too big for our couch apparently and I'm suppose to move my bookcases to a different location. Moving them is no small feat so I may be in your position soon with my house in disarray but of course no papers to grade.

Btw, super impressed with the 90 days of sick days you have left. I say take one!

GL,Linda
_________________
"Above all, be the heroine of your life and not the victim.” Nora Ephron

3/14-210 lbs;
3/15- 202 lbs;
1/16- 172 lbs;
9/17-177 lbs;
1/18-162 lbs;
9/18-154 lbs;









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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
Posts: 1004
Location: Pennsylvania, US

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala, I'm about to steal your thread for a quick minute. Hope you don't mind

Linda said, .
Quote:
I was like geeesh, it's not like they're from ikea or target or something. They were pretty costly and I think they're nice.

If you like them, keep them. She only makes money by convincing you that her taste is better than yours.

oolala back to you Smile I still have a bit of a sweet tooth after 4 or 5 years of more or less sugar free. I think that craving sweets is pretty human, it's the constant access that we have to pure, refined (and quite frankly, tastey) sugar that gets us into trouble.

Hope all goes well with the Doctor. I think I might have your sick days beat. I have 47 built up since January of 2013. I don't take a lot of days Rolling Eyes
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 402
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re the hardback books-- foo. I am guilty of wanting things to Look Nice, but an interesting home with actual people and not androids in it functions and reflects who they are. So Books, because you read.

I guess you can always move the softcovers back after she's done <G>.

I decorate in New Hampshire Grandma (not from New England, or a grandma, though I think I qualify as vintage.) Rag rugs and quilts and an orange tabby who arranges himself artistically. Lots of dog eared books, many of them paperback.

Oolala, hope you feel better! Give employment to a sub and take some time to rest up Smile
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ironchef



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 1630
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only hard cover books? Wow, our house would be overflowing with soft cover book boxes if they weren't in the book cases!

oolala, as my boss says, they are sick days, but they are also "personal days" - time to use a few!!
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took one! But still didn't get all the grading done. Oh, well. staying up late. I've got only 34 days left this semester. I can afford a few more of burning the midnight oil.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
Posts: 1004
Location: Pennsylvania, US

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can afford a few more of burning the midnight oil.

You could also afford another sick/personal day Wink
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not this week. I will just pay for it later. I need contact personally with students for what I have to do. At least my job can't be outsourced...yet.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Merry



Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 1657

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you get to get paid for all those days you don't use when you retire, or do you just lose them?
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Homeschool Mom and No S returnee as of 11-30-15.
2 years and counting on No-S.
29 lbs. down, 34 to go. Slow and steady wins the race.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those unused days boost my monthly retirement, or for sure, I'd be leaving a semester early. I would not take them piecemeal. Too fragmenting for me. I feel discombobulated being gone and coming back, and leaving plans for a substitute teacher are so time consuming when you're dealing with kids who need so much guidance. Not that I don't think there aren't some good materials out there somewhere that would be appropriate for them, but I can search for hours and still not come up with anything that isn't mostly a compromise.

Boy, am I tired of that dilemma. I wish I were leaving feeling I had conquered it, but with 29 days left this semester, I have to accept it's not going to happen.

I went to dinner Friday night with a man I used to have a terrific crush on and his late 20's son and a girlfriend of his. I think I haven't seen that much booze drunk in a year, but I don't get out much. We stopped in to his son's penthouse apartment that he shares with a high school friend, both of them in high-end real estate. It was stunning. I could kind of see the logic of it. He could pay a few hundred dollars a month less for a modest one-bedroom in a less posh part of town, or have a more-than-million dollar view where he is. I was never in a position to think about those options, or may I was and didn't know it?

I failed at dinner, but it felt okay, even thought I had not declared ahead of time that I would take an S day. I was glad that I had pretty much held out for that dinner, eaten much later than I would normally eat, when I had been failing between lunch and dinner so much later.

But I'm also glad I don't eat out that much.

And I'm experiencing something that's disturbing to me but that feels like it would take a fair amount of mental gymnastics to counteract. I notice how many heavy people there are in a way that I actually didn't used to. It's possible there are more of them, but California is the top ten of the least obese states at about 24% obese, yet at least when I'm out, it looks like we match the national stats of about 33% overweight and 33% obese. I find myself being judgmental. But I think what really bothers me underneath that is that it is an area I wish I had more allies in, and it's obvious that my values clash, just as I feel a lot my values clash with those around me. I feel I've put a lot of effort into trying to find my real life tribe, and it hasn't happened in the way I've wished for. I also grapple with how to stay on my own foundation while letting others stay on theirs, especially when I interpret theirs to be sandstone. But if mine were granite, I wouldn't be threatened by theirs at all.

I do have to say that of the people I actually do fraternize with, few are on the side of overdoing food. They're more likely to be the food-type limiters, which I can get annoyed by, too. You just can't please me!

My old crush was heavy when I met him, but I found him very attractive and pretty much still do, but also feel myself judging because he's gone vegetarian and sometimes vegan yet weighs more now than when I met him 10 years ago. And he's a doctor! Yeah, I know that is a common paradox. I know he knows down deep that he is a compulsive eater and his limitation tactics are not working to correct that, though they may not have been chosen for that purpose. And it's not like it's a crime. I know I'm clinging to habits that aren't bringing me a lot of happiness but that I still find intractable. How can I scorn anyone else for not winning a difficult battle, one that demands going against habits of mind and body?

I get tired of the mental battles, but even that doesn't stop them. The guidelines are much clearer for just not eating at certain times!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 402
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is this old crush single--?
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and totally not romantically interested in me. And yes, he has said it outright in as kind a way as possible years ago,, so I'm not guessing. He recognized that I was good people, and thought maybe the spark could be there, but it just wasn't for him. But at my age, with my lack of success at increasing my social circle over the years, coupled with the fact that he can be a fun person who adequately liked my company, I saw no reason to cut off developing the friendship at the level it was. It's mostly a moot point now as he lives outside of Salt Lake City and I'm in San Diego. We don't have the kind of friendship where we call each other up and talk about our ups and downs. He doesn't do that much with anyone, as far as I can tell, nor feel the need to. I've come to accept that most relationships, even with women, are mostly personable without being personal. It's not a reason to reject them. Far from it, especially if family isn't close geographically or in shared values. If people treat us decently, there's benefit in keeping the doors open.

BTW, he thought back then that falling in love was something that would never happen to him. Then he met a woman he completely fell for at their very first meeting. When she decided after a few months that it wasn't mutual, he accepted with aplomb, but I knew it really hurt. Later he confided that it left him wondering how he should proceed. He had some desire to date, but did he even though he didn't feel those feelings, now that he knew they were possible? He's certainly fun enough and considered a good catch enough that he has always been able to have dating partners. But he doesn't offer any information on those fronts now. He would likely tell me in conversation if he met someone really important, but he wouldn't tell me about any casual dating. He doesn't even ask questions about much personal stuff of his own family, saying that they'll tell him if they want. I have a feeling that a fair number of men are like that. We hadn't even been in touch for a few years until I made an overture when I knew I'd be in SLC for my grand niece's wedding. That was partly because I was in such a down state and we didn't have the kind of relationship to share that. If we meet again, it will be tangential to other situations, which is fine. It's hardly on my radar now.

My, how I can go on!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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lpearlmom



Joined: 02 Aug 2013
Posts: 3841
Location: Arizona

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well glad you had a fun night out at least. Sorry you're finding yourself judging other ppl and not enjoying it. At least you're aware of it? It's probably no worse than me being happy that I'm not the fattest person in the room?


I like you're attitude about keeping the door open if ppl treat you well. I used to be so picky about my friends but I'm realizing there can be different levels of friendship. I do miss having a best friend though where you talk all the time and tell each other everything.
_________________
"Above all, be the heroine of your life and not the victim.” Nora Ephron

3/14-210 lbs;
3/15- 202 lbs;
1/16- 172 lbs;
9/17-177 lbs;
1/18-162 lbs;
9/18-154 lbs;









Instagram "lpearlmom"
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Linda. And I know what you mean about best friends. My friend who moved 500+ miles away is someone I can talk to pretty well, but even when she was here, she never wanted to just hang out the way I would have liked to have. But there are people who might have wanted more from me.


Okay, another vent, though this isn't necessarily about myself. It's going to sound so obvious, as it's been pointed out for a few years at least, but i was just especially struck this week with the ubiquitousness of manufactured food. I went into a Target and saw in a way I hadn't in awhile all the stuff so easy to grab near the cash register. A person could go there to shop for something completely different and still have to fend off the urge to eat just paying for the item. But any attempt to limit the access to food or to limit the advertising of it, as if that's what the founding fathers meant to protect with free speech, is looked at as denying basic rights. I know it's tricky, but the situation is almost dumbfounding. Not to mention how much of the economy is tied up in the cooking and packaging of it all. Plus how much do we depend on the fast food industry for entry level jobs?

Nice way to start my day!
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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SpiritSong



Joined: 04 Nov 2010
Posts: 506

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's hard to imagine our economy if everyone acted like we probably should. What if we all ate only non-processed food? What if no one went into debt to buy things (except a house, car, education, etc., but not consumer goods)? What if we did our own manual labor instead of hiring people and paying to join gyms?

Imagine the collapse of the fast food industry, the snack food industry, consumer good manufacturing, landscaping companies, etc. Shocked

It would be nice to put the diet industry out of business though. Those people can find something else to do once everyone is at a healthy weight. Laughing
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ironchef



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Posts: 1630
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s amazing to me. It used to just be supermarkets that kept the junk at the checkout, but now it seems to be sneaking in everywhere. Can’t I buy some socks?
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The message about consumerism has been around for decades- it was called conspicuous consumption in the 60's but isn't really recognized as conspicuous by the masses- but it has only risen in the ensuing time. Yet, one of my college friends who was very deep into environmental studies for decades remains optimistic because he feels we've barely scratched the surface on getting serious about recycling, etc.

Then again, we won't be around to see if it all turns out...
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
Posts: 1004
Location: Pennsylvania, US

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you really think an item isn't worth it, you don't buy it. If you think a place isn't worth it to visit, you don't go there. Etc.

This is a quote of yours from Kathleen's thread. When laid out like this it seems so obvious. It, along with some thoughts of my own has really helped me put my thoughts in order this week. -thanks
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
Posts: 9340
Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Gingerpie. As Reinhard says, most of being able to implement No S depends on changing our thinking about our eating and our excuses.


I'll admit that when it comes to items to buy and places to visit, cost and lack of proximity may help make the decision, because the urges to buy or go don't usually keep coming back. However, there are too many examples of people who may have failed many times at changing their eating who finally decide it's just not worth the results anymore, whether it's a health condition, public ridicule even if it is unfair, finding unacceptable the lethargy of overeating an/or being "hooked," etc. They make changes they never could before, and don't let the frequent desire to deviate from their plan or small failures stop them.

Believing one is powerless over food has been shown to lead to more relapse than believing it is ultimately one's choice to eat or not to eat. Sure, it would be very hard to choose to starve oneself to death, but no one here is asking for that. FAR from it. Just starve from meal to meal. Wink

I don't mean to say there is anything wrong with a person admitting that overeating IS actually worth it, at least in the moment. It was integral for me. What I think is much more problematic is for us to keep telling ourselves that we're serious about something and are willing to implement a strategy when we aren't, when we show we aren't by repeating the pattern. I think this ultimately erodes our self-confidence. We may decide the strategy is just too painful, at least for time being, or may hold out for a strategy that seems more palatable, while still having an intense desire to change the behavior. No dishonor in that.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Posts: 402
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I agree with this-- the importance of keeping faith with yourself. Either decide it's not worth it (I have done that) or that it is worth it, conditionally (I've done that too.) But to keep trying and failing, ugh. Very hard on the psyche.
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ironchef



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just popping in to say thanks for your words of wisdom here, and on Kathleen's thread. Some things I needed to hear today.

Self respect, just like any respect, is earned. When I keep faith with myself and follow through on what I believe to be important, my self respect (what some people call self esteem) always increases.
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Merry



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:

Believing one is powerless over food has been shown to lead to more relapse than believing it is ultimately one's choice to eat or not to eat.


I do think this is so important for us to realize. We're not powerless over food. And we're not powerless over the coercive people in our lives--we can choose whether or not to eat no matter how much others urge us (sometimes if it's an infrequent situation, it may be easier just to eat than not to-but realizing that we are making that decision and are not "forced" into it is so important).
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with David Burns of Feeling Good repute: self-esteem should be unconditional, but it's just about impossible to have self-confidence and self-respect without the right behaviors that build them. And we ultimately want them all.

Come to think of it, self-esteem takes the right behaviors, too, but those are usually habits of mind, namely compassion and forgiveness towards ourselves. Ones I could use a lot of practice with.
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clarinetgal



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an interesting discussion! I can certainly relate to some of what has been shared! I feel better about myself when I consistently follow good behaviors, like those of No S.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alert for anyone experimenting with fasting! You may not want to read this.

Well, I've been off the deep end. More dessert in a sitting than I had eaten in several weekends. And other stuff, but that's enough detail. My goodness. The urge can come over me and I don't even try to fight it. How I'm going to feel later, frighteningly, isn't much of a deterrent. Nor the health effects, which for awhile had been front and center, though they were all about "future self." They began to feel remote.

But I'm considering the idea that the brain is fighting back against the changes that came about when I went through several months of IF in two stints, one shaky, the other more solid, over the course of a year and a half. Not the short 5-day ones I've done, but the extended time of daily or every-other-day I did. I got consistently ten pounds below what my baseline had been for a few years. That hadn't been the intent, but it seemed like a nice side effect. The routine felt relatively easy. Secretly, I started thinking, wow, if I've gotten this low, maybe I could actually shoot for less, which I hadn't ever done while on No S. Maybe I could actually to get the weight at which my same age peers consider to be the weight at which they don't wish they could weigh less. (Turns out to be the weight of only 6% of the population, which about matches the % of ectomorphs, the naturally skinny model bodytype) I was also bothered by my bodyfat, which had gone up a couple percent in a year and was essentially 30%. (Back in my 30's, I had whittled it down from 28% to 19%. Then over time, I put on 50 lbs.) I couldn't accept that that is where it is supposed to be, (but given the conditions, I guess I'm wrong. Not worth dickering about. I'm okay with giving up on that one.)

Then the start of the new school year came and I gradually returned to a reduced version of my overeating before No S, and it's been escalating. At first I thought I could stop it by just abandoning IF for the semester and returning to Vanilla , but I kept failing even at that. Now I'm seven pounds up from what had been the consistent new low (for over a year) and my pants are starting to register it. I had felt I had leeway and would get back "into it," but instead I've gotten more into my old self.

And I'm not sure I can stop it soon.

I've been reading a book that is slowly convincing me that, though I do believe I can get my better habits back, I cannot sustain much of a lower weight nor lower bodyfat %age without a level of effort I'm not willing to commit to. I have to accept the body that comes from what is not much more of an effort with No S and some mods. I do believe when I have next semester off, I'll be able to tame the failures and do more consistent exercise, but it's very possible that that won't get me back to where I was six months ago, which was where I had been for over a year. I'm not sure I can consistently return to IF, though it is in the back of my mind. But it's reminding me of how I used to dream of being able to stick to a stricter diet and exercise routine, and have closer to that body, the one I had achieved with Herculean (for me) effort years ago. That it would somehow come from changes that didn't seem that drastic, and then I would be a REALLY admirable senior citizen, at least, if I couldn't be the slim ingenue I had wanted to be. Not really the way I want to live.

Oh, well. As the stats show, the odds against losing body fat and maintaining it are extremely low, and I am one to play the odds. The odds are very good that a traditional diet and movement routine are my best bet, as it's done very well for millions more than all the diets and orderly modern purposeful exercise programs have done in a 150 years. If whole populations haven't lived it, it's likely going to work for only a lucky few. They won't feel they're lucky. They'll feel like they've worked for it, and they have, but the facts show that there is still an amount of luck that their body doesn't drive them crazy staying there.

The author of the book does say so far that there are two things that can lower the weight setpoint: consistent exercise (it sounds rather more than I've been doing or have thought I could do consistently) and eating hardly any modern manufactured foods, including very little sugar. We'll see how close I get to that, but I'm not counting on anything. My high school weight, when I was about 15-20 lbs. heavier than the hot girls, and a higher bodyfat, that had stayed steady through all the terrible teenage eating that went on, the weight I was before I went on my first serious diet, might be it for my last decades on the planet. And that wouldn't be so terrible, though I have to admit, there is some disappointment. There is SUCH a strong value in this culture for weights low on the BMI scale and it is so much more visible than the qualities that really make a difference, but which couldn't be admired by strangers.

Oh, that strong strong human desire, especially for women, to be admired, to be "chosen," by strangers.

I've said before I've realized that underneath that cultural imposition has been an even greater desire to, as an old spiritual teacher called it, transcend all false securities. And the admiration of strangers for beauty is as false a security as they come, IMHO, no matter how good it looks or how content those who have it look. It might actually be for them, but it just is not working out to be my path, and cannot possibly be for the masses unless they are somehow able to rise up against the huge cultural, economic, and even human forces for overeating.

The author, Guyenet, said a study of hunter gatherers are big, big bingers when they get the chance. Men can eat FIVE POUNDS of meat at a sitting, and ingest a quart and a half of honey, which they "drink like a glass of milk." And apparently don't sit around afterwards lamenting their fullness. He said they would be just as likely as us to get fat from a supermarket diet.

And of course, they do it probably only a few times a month, if not a year.

(In fact, when obesity researchers were looking for a way to get mice to overeat, which most of them cannot be induced to do even though they never worry about how they'll look in a bikini nor how bad their eating is for their health, i.e. there is NO prefrontal cortex action involved at all. One researcher stumbled on it by feeding one of them a little of the supermarket food around. Worked. Like. Magic. When given a choice, they abandoned their simple fare and expanded their waistlines joyously.)

He also posits something I've been saying for a few years: in the atmosphere of plenty, (and no cultural value for limits) there is absolutely nothing normal about being able to eat the amount we'd like and stay thin. Or eat only when stomach hungry. Ludicrous! Not many of them lived to be our ancestors.

He has also talked about how gradual many of the eating environment and habits have been. Sure, the 70's were a real takeoff point, but in the preceding 100 years, things had changed a lot, too. Each generation or so has gotten used to more and more refined foods or manufactured-canned, boxed, frozen-, so that we defend practices that are very different than they had been. And not just us, but even the modern slim cultures take for granted eating a level of refined foods, mostly flour and sugar, impossible a hundred years ago. A small piece of chocolate every day? A dessert every weekend? More and more baked products so that they now constitute nearly half of the diet?

I'm trying not to get too seduced by using the measuring stick from that far back as a stand in for being able to follow some contemporary diet. It's so easy to want to get all moral about it! Which is not to say there aren't some real benefits from a way different diet than even from the 50's and 60's, but it's not in keeping with No S to get very commando about it.

And it looks to me in hindsight that IF was being a little too commando.

But I am very willing to use some prefrontal cortex to get back to better habits, and given the human preferences and modern excess and my own former deep groove, it's going to take that. Which is another way of saying, as we know, it's an inside job, at least until those better habits are in place, and probably a little for maintenance.

On a completely different note, I am so so happy that it's as light as it is out now at 6:37 a.m. when I've been awake for nearly two hours. Another hour of darkness in the mornings is not something I look forward to come mid-December to mid- January. How I envy those who can sleep through them.


Last edited by oolala53 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gingerpie



Joined: 06 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, There is so much that I can relate to that I don't know where to start. It feels as though you are in a similar place to me in regards to feeling some sadness in accepting that "what I have is what I have" and that, given our ages, there really isn't much chance that we'll change all that much before our time here is over. The trick now, is to come to a place of peace. For me, I don't want to feel tired and grouchy before I even get out of bed int he morning so to come to a place of peace, I need to learn to give up my wine and snacks. -yes- they really do make that much of a difference. I too have to accept that my young-and-sexy years are a thing of the past and the best I can hope for now is old-and-somewhat-sexy-as-compared-to-my-peers. The motivation can't be how I look but even giving that up is a loss because it's been a motivating factor for so long it's become part of my identity. (I hope that makes sense. It made sense in my head but somehow it doesn't look the same printed out) When I look in the mirror I just have to sigh because my belly isn't going anywhere no matter how many crunches I do, miles I run or calories I count. My this is hard to put into words but it's as though I've reached a place that I don't care about the belly, I care about the loss of not caring about the belly because caring is who I was. If I don't care anymore, then who am I?

I'm glad you owned up to the effects of IF for you. I was beginning to be swayed by all the talk of success floating around but my big underlying question was "if I can't be successful by fasting between meals then why would I try to do more of an unsuccessful behavior?" So, I decided to work on the obvious first (wine and evening snacks) and ignore the siren song of faster weight loss or even better health which (like you) has become a much bigger motivator than weight loss itself. To be honest, my husband has started a sort of self made IF program whereby he eats breakfast, dinner and usually an evening snack but skips lunch. Apparently he just accidentally started doing this due to work constraints and realized he didn't need lunch. The difference I see between what he does and IF is that he found it by responding to what worked for him. He isn't worried about it. It wasn't a plan or a goal to look a certain way. It just is. That's what I want for myself, a way if being that "just is".

As to your habits, of course you can get back to what you were doing, Once you have skills you never lose them. Like riding a bike but it's true for everything. Skills might get rusty and you might have to double up on some practice time but the underlying connections in your brain are still there. I think the difficulty might come in accepting that the habits might not yield the sane results. I can still ride a bike but I can't go as fast. It's that truth that I have the most difficulty with.

All this to say that I wish you well in your journey and support you on your way.
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the book, Oolala?

Youth and beauty is such a siren call, worse for women I think. But I find it helpful to remember that like so many things, it's good for some things, not so good for others. My most physically beautiful friends have not necessarily had the easiest time of it. What is best in life? Being chosen because you're the prettiest? That's heady stuff and it's fun, but it doesn't necessarily help you that much with the business of living.

I don't know, I think if you're a basically determined and effective person who's struggled with weight all your life, pounds are The Enemy, and vanquishing them lights up your brain even when they may not be that important from a health or even a cosmetic perspective. NoS is so great because it helps you be peaceful around food, and if you lose that peace trying to chase down a few cosmetic pounds, doesn't that feel like misplaced focus?

I feel bad if talking about IF is distressing anyone. Personally I think it flows pretty nicely with NoS, and recent research has some interesting implications for diabetes prevention/treatment. My perspective is that NoS already regulates insulin and makes food into a normal happy part of life; I'd argue IF is stronger medicine of a similar type. But then my motivation is mostly health. Fluffy as I am, I don't have a long history of restriction getting into my headspace. For me it's all about wrestling insulin into its proper place. But for someone else, the mental battle might be more important and that might call for a different toolkit.

Thanks for your thoughts, very interesting.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Larkspur. I assume you are agreeing with me that chasing cosmetic pounds is seductive but for mostly the wrong ultimately only marginally satisfying reasons.

I, too, thought IF could flow nicely with No S. I read tons and tons on the benefits but rarely discussed it here because it's not really No S and because in modern times, it is definitely an imposition on the eating routine, and not lived naturally by any known civilization, at least not in the way IF is presented. If I had a present health condition, I think I could get back into it, but it will take some doing to get back to thinking for the future. For anyone with that motivation, and not just lip service to it, it's certainly more natural and less painful than many prescriptions. Though I would caution anyone that if they think they can get the same health and weight loss benefits LONG TERM while eating a lot of junk or refined foods, they are likely to be disappointed OR be one of the exceptions. The researcher said that these foods tend to keep the set point higher than when whole foods are eaten. But it's all a trade off.

All I'm saying is that I thought IF was the answer and I'm nearly back where I was, right about on schedule for where the literature says I would likely be nearly two years later. No, it does say I should weigh more. We shall see.

Each person has to decide how much of the modern eating pattern they are willing to give up and what is worth keeping.

The book is The Hungry Brain by neuroscience and health blogger Stephan Guyenet. He doesn't say anyone has to live like him, but he lives a very different life from the rest of the population and certainly very different from what the vast majority of obese people especially in the concentrated areas they live in, are going to be willing to do. And different from how I'm likely to be willing to live, too. Most people are in denial of just what a hold manufactured foods have on them, myself included. It's much bigger than we want to believe, IMHO. And certainly our ability to get to the media-driven lows, unless we can start over with a new generation, are, pardon the pun, very slim.

And that is not an idea that will sell a lot of books.

Honestly, I'm not completely peaceful on No S, which was one of the reasons I entertained IF, but I'm not willing to do anything else because I see now that it's unlikely that anything else is going to get me to any better peace, and it's still a better-than-reasonable way to live. My problems have to do with other features of my life and likely the fact that by having gained quite a bit of weight and having kept it on for a number of years, now that I'm close to where I was before starting that "party," my body takes less food to feel completely sated -which is not the same as not feeling empty-stomach hunger- than it would have if I had never gained weight and sustained it. So some of the time, I am going to feel like eating even when it's not time, and that is likely true no matter how long I keep the habit. I am not suffering like the person who was obese for most of her life, or even for adulthood and is now maintaining a low weight, but the mechanisms are very similar.

And at this moment, I'm okay with that.
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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lin47



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gingerpie wrote:
. . . my husband has started a sort of self made IF program whereby he eats breakfast, dinner and usually an evening snack but skips lunch


Oolala, I hope you don't mind me popping in to comment on Gingerpie's post. Gingerpie and Oolala, my husband has eaten this way since I met him (about 30 years ago). He has never had a weight problem. He doesn't really desire lunch, but he also has mentioned that he thinks it's good for the body to have a "break" to digest the food, and since he rarely feels like making lunch, he figures lunch is as good a meal as any to skip.

My mod for No S is two meals a day. It's working out fine so far. When I tried a version of IF years ago (16/8 ), I would end up eating a late lunch and dinner. I find I like the breakfast/dinner combo better than lunch/dinner.
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jenji



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been avoiding reading much on the threads promoting IF, because to be honest, it sounds like disordered eating to me. I'm not any kind of expert, so don't quote me.

The reason I am attracted to No S is the simplicity and the healthy habits. I want to be able to think about things that aren't my body and my diet. If you could let go of the need to worry about how your body is perceived by others, what would you spend that time doing?

The urgent messages to look more attractive every year aren't possible. They are a fool's errand. We look fine, we really do. We look wonderful. We look like beloved friends and teachers and family members. I promise you are so beautiful to so many people, and your spirit is what makes you beautiful. So if becoming more attractive isn't the end game, what is worthy of your beautiful spirit and your time?

Sorry to be so blunt. It is offered with great admiration.
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Current weight 167#, BMI 25.8 - 8/8/2018
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your concern, but I don't quite understand, as I think I was saying the same thing. I believe the quest for appearance is a false idol, meaning not the real thing. (In fact, when people here lose weight, I almost always congratulate them on the HABITS that got them there, not the loss itself. I put my losses in my signature line just because it's so important to some, kind of like Reinhard's token periodic picture updates.) I did not start No S to lose weight but to change my eating. They are not the same thing to me. The weight loss has been a side effect. In all my years I THINK I have been distracted by the quest for loss only a couple of times, that last time when I made changes for health that took me to a low weight I didn't expect. (Someone patient may be able to peruse my zillions of posts and prove me wrong. And I don't claim to have done nothing for vanity.)

I did not do IF for weight loss. I tried it because of problems with almost never feeling true hunger but still having a desire to eat and because it does have health benefits. (It's a long story, much written about.) I did finally feel real hunger again, but it never became an easy routine, like Vanilla was for so long. The new weight loss brought the ghosts out and they messed with me! I danced along for awhile, but it was not with enthusiasm, and the music stopped months ago. I think it's similar to what can happen when somebody starts making more money and then thinks, wow, I never thought I could aim for (a rather ambitious) X amount of money. They start doing all kinds of extra things to make money that end up damaging their overall quality of life, which is what the money is supposed to help, but which is almost never the foundation of contentment.

But it was short-lived, thank goodness.

I don't feel I struggle with my weight; I was unclear if I came off like that. I am not trying to change my weight, though I think I said I worry that my body fat is high, not because of esthetics, but because disease-free longevity is highly associated with lower body fat than I have, but even that is not a good reason to get too frazzled.

I struggle with my EATING, not my weight, because I do not have the ease with hunger and satiety that I did for several years on No S. (See above on long story). And I feel my recent failures are a delayed boomerang of IF even though I didn't do it for weight loss. The body will fight change no matter what your reasons. But the right reasons can tip the battle in the target direction. I've lost sight of the reasons, but I think I see it in perspective. My efforts to adjust my eating runs parallel to other avenues I deal with that have nothing to do with eating but that cause as much or more discomfort than eating does. I've said many times those are much harder to change than eating has been but I accept that as part of the mix of life. Those I've touched on but am not willing to hash them out completely here.

In other words, things are in flux in many arenas and I have decided that, as is said these days, it is what it is.



I've probably gone on way too long and should have just said, thanks for your good wishes. hope I haven't offended, either.
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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Kathleen



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolal53,
I think a better gauge of success is if you feel better. Dr. Bert Herring, who invented the Fast-5 Diet of eating only within a 5 hour window daily, has a philosophy called "The Study of One." You need to do what works for you. Although I am frustrated by a mere 5 pound weight loss in 6 months, I am sticking with this plan because I feel better and it works with my family life. My hope is more pounds come off. I'm willing to exercise more. I've experimented with a lot of fasting over many years that just did not work for me.
Kathleen
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jenji



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:
Thanks for your concern, but I don't quite understand, as I think I was saying the same thing. I believe the quest for appearance is a false idol, meaning not the real thing. (In fact, when people here lose weight, I almost always congratulate them on the HABITS that got them there, not the loss itself. I put my losses in my signature line just because it's so important to some, kind of like Reinhard's token periodic picture updates.) I did not start No S to lose weight but to change my eating. They are not the same thing to me. The weight loss has been a side effect. In all my years I THINK I have been distracted by the quest for loss only a couple of times, that last time when I made changes for health that took me to a low weight I didn't expect. (Someone patient may be able to peruse my zillions of posts and prove me wrong. And I don't claim to have done nothing for vanity.)

I did not do IF for weight loss. I tried it because of problems with almost never feeling true hunger but still having a desire to eat and because it does have health benefits. (It's a long story, much written about.) I did finally feel real hunger again, but it never became an easy routine, like Vanilla was for so long. The new weight loss brought the ghosts out and they messed with me! I danced along for awhile, but it was not with enthusiasm, and the music stopped months ago. I think it's similar to what can happen when somebody starts making more money and then thinks, wow, I never thought I could aim for (a rather ambitious) X amount of money. They start doing all kinds of extra things to make money that end up damaging their overall quality of life, which is what the money is supposed to help, but which is almost never the foundation of contentment.

But it was short-lived, thank goodness.

I don't feel I struggle with my weight; I was unclear if I came off like that. I am not trying to change my weight, though I think I said I worry that my body fat is high, not because of esthetics, but because disease-free longevity is highly associated with lower body fat than I have, but even that is not a good reason to get too frazzled.

I struggle with my EATING, not my weight, because I do not have the ease with hunger and satiety that I did for several years on No S. (See above on long story). And I feel my recent failures are a delayed boomerang of IF even though I didn't do it for weight loss. The body will fight change no matter what your reasons. But the right reasons can tip the battle in the target direction. I've lost sight of the reasons, but I think I see it in perspective. My efforts to adjust my eating runs parallel to other avenues I deal with that have nothing to do with eating but that cause as much or more discomfort than eating does. I've said many times those are much harder to change than eating has been but I accept that as part of the mix of life. Those I've touched on but am not willing to hash them out completely here.

In other words, things are in flux in many arenas and I have decided that, as is said these days, it is what it is.



I've probably gone on way too long and should have just said, thanks for your good wishes. hope I haven't offended, either.


Got it. I also struggle to change other habits as well, so I sympathize. Sorry that I was off-topic/off-base with my comments. Hope you have a good day and a good Thanksgiving!
_________________
I'm a 48-year-old mom and non-profit CEO
I am 5' 7.5"
Began No S at 184#, BMI 28.4 - 9/25/2017
Current weight 167#, BMI 25.8 - 8/8/2018
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kathleen, nice to see you and thanks for commenting! I think it is not possible to measure the efficacy of any program in less than two years. What can feel easy and right for periods of time can become shaky and difficult later. That's why Reinhard says there is no such thing as before and after: only before and during. But it doesn't mean we don't reflect as we go, just that we recognize it isn't likely all over in a few weeks or months.

And I have ALWAYS maintained that improvements in how we feel eating more moderately is way more important than weight loss. It is just about the only incentive that lasts, unless a person has a health condition that doesn't let them feel the benefits as clearly, so they must rely on blood markers.

I have read Herring's work as well and my continued issue with him and most other change-of-diet promoters is that it is not necessary nor helpful to continually imply that every person needs some detailed individual plan to be successful. I would guess that fewer than 20% of people need very precise plans. Well more than 80% of most country's populations (if there was an adequate food supply) stayed slim on meal-based eating spread out over the course of a day for generations. The simple fact is that anything that millions of people have not already done in the last 200 years is very unlikely to be necessary. Worse, the alternatives are likely to divert the individuals from truly embracing a general plan that they can then adjust. (I do like his concept of adjusting.) Fasting as it is practiced in recent times only approximates what previous generations had to contend with; nearly none of their fasting was self-imposed. Adjusting contents of the foods at discrete meals is a small issue in comparison with simple limiting the number and size of the "feedings."

That being said, congratulations on six months of compliance and on feeling that Fast-5 is doable. I didn't know it had gone on that long. Have you followed his suggestions on dealing with lack of weight loss or continued overeating/gorging, if that still happens, or do they seem like they might rock the boat too much?

I felt exponentially better in my first five years on No S, though I never had the breezy ease that some have reported. It was and is a terrific improvement over the decades of disordered eating I had done.

I have written extensively about my "troubles," but I in no way ever felt that they negated the value of No S. My life is STILL better with the meal structure as the aspired-to foundation, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't take some very purposeful effort at times. I think anyone who says that willpower cannot or should not be used either to begin of continue a habit is doing a disservice. It certainly takes less willpower to maintain some habits, but the effort for this habit is worth it TO ME, even when I sometimes falter or whine about it. I accept that the pull of the frequent access to easy-to-overeat foods, as well as some personal conditions, will take some willpower to counteract for the long run. It's certainly better than the alternative!


Jenji, thank you and a very pleasant holiday week to you, too.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started a thread about some sugar effects that are affecting my thinking about it, and ended up getting off on a personal tangent, as I wanted it to stay mostly "just the facts." I had posted that I might try to revert to 1822 usage, but comments made me realize that might be going too far. Here is what I answered.

I guess I wasn't thinking of getting it out as much as it sounded. Maybe 1822 (the equivalent of a 12-ounce Coke, which I think is 4 tablespoons/39 grams of added sugar every five days) might be asking a lot of me. It was mostly cutting even further the sweets I have on weekends that I spend time with my philosophy group and the occasional event I attend- not to mention my failures, which have been greater this year than others. That's one of the reasons I've been trying to indoctrinate myself. But I don't eat near as much packaged food as I used to and even then, I'm relatively aware of the sugar content. I look at that sugar in terms of pieces of fruit, though I know the manufactured foods don't deliver the other nutrients the fruit does. If eat the equivalent of the sugar in an apple in a serving of something packaged, I won't count that. Most of the food I make for myself is basically grains and rice and sometimes some animal flesh, plus fresh or frozen vegetables. I just looked at some of the commercial sauces I use and the most sugar was in spaghetti sauce, which was 11 grams, which is less than half of what's in an apple.

I know even non- fast food restaurants probably use some sugar. I don't eat much fast food these days, either. I just started to wonder if my use of stevia was keeping the door open for the recent failures, though I suspect it's other pressures, such as having gone back to full time work, which is ending in three weeks! But I'm willing to alter the stevia use, too. THAT will be a sacrifice because of how much I enjoy my coffee sweetened, and darn it, I've already cut out a lot of foods I used to have more regularly because I didn't think I could justify them anymore.

My musing on it was mostly from reading about the rise in the use, not so much the impact on the body, though I know that's an issue. It's been so incremental that each successive generation has considered higher and higher amounts as normal.

The other thing that's making an impression on me from my reading of The Hungry Brain is the finding that eating mostly unmanufactured foods seems to bring the weight set point of the body down; the body doesn't lower the metabolism as much eating the same number of reduced calories (meaning the calories I'm not eating any more since starting No S), i.e., it burns more calories on whole foods. It has to do with experiencing less food reward from less "intense food, " which is actually an advantage. The hypothalamus will actually increase the desire for more palatable -read ones intensely seasoned with fat, salt,, and sugar-foods when eaten often because they are such a good deal for ingesting calories. It will reinforce wanting to eat them more and actually increase the set point to accommodate taking them in. More bland food isn't as "rewarding," so it asks for less. It's still calories in and calories out, as the body still has to burn those calories. It just turns out it will up the burning and leave the weight lower on food more like our ancestors ate. We're not talking a lot lower, and my aim isn't for a lot. It's to see if there is a way to bring down my nearly 30% bodyfat content a few percentage points, without purposely aiming at lowered calories and without becoming a bodybuilding fanatic. It may turn out that this is it, though. The body can do a lot to keep the balance the way it is. Given that I will be eating mostly good food in moderate amounts and getting moderate exercise, I'm willing to accept that it might know best, as I mostly have done the whole time. I'm not going to be willing to do much else and am only considering the new changes because they are incremental to the changes I've already made. I think radical changes are merited for people with health conditions, such as autoimmune diseases. As I've often said, I think THAT'S what "diets" are meant for.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I feel I need some more brainwashing. I started reading bits of Salt, Sugar, Fat free on the web. It's infuriating how much power these forces have had and continue to, and how dependent we are on them not only for food but also for jobs. I guess I'm ready for the facts, though. I would not have considered reading it back in the beginning. I couldn't have accepted the message then. I see myself now as having been too much under the spell to take seriously going any faster at my changes than I did. Maybe that's just how it has to be.

But every word I read makes me rejoice at any compliant day, even if my food choices aren't "ideal." The trajectory this week has been good, in comparison to how things have been.

I keep forgetting that it is my intention to do no solitary snacking or sweet eating on weekends. I hope I don't have to go through a completely new cycle of concentrating on Vanilla only.

Guyenet of The Hungry Brain reported that PLAIN potatoes have some of the highest satiety factor of any single food. He probably didn't mean sweet potatoes but since that's what I had in my pantry, I cooked them up this morning before work. (I wake up so early that that is actually when I do some cooking of simple items that I later add sauces/flavorings to. I'm pretty sure that's had a lot to do with my success-having the makings of simple meals at the ready.) Had a decent-sized one as part of dinner and the rest are in the freezer.
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Merry



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:

The other thing that's making an impression on me from my reading of The Hungry Brain is the finding that eating mostly unmanufactured foods seems to bring the weight set point of the body down; the body doesn't lower the metabolism as much eating the same number of reduced calories (meaning the calories I'm not eating any more since starting No S), i.e., it burns more calories on whole foods. It has to do with experiencing less food reward from less "intense food, " which is actually an advantage. The hypothalamus will actually increase the desire for more palatable -read ones intensely seasoned with fat, salt,, and sugar-foods when eaten often because they are such a good deal for ingesting calories. It will reinforce wanting to eat them more and actually increase the set point to accommodate taking them in. More bland food isn't as "rewarding," so it asks for less.


This is really interesting to think about. I should experiment!
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wouldn't happen fast, Merry. I deduce that it would take about a year or more.

Along other lines: My obsession with finding more and more reasons for moderation and ways to manage appetite is strong, like voracious diet explorers. (Drooling over The Hungry Brain is an example.) Actually even stronger than my attachment to food. Letting go of it is more anxiety-provoking than my old near-terror of letting go of sweets. I used to almost cry at the thought of not letting myself have wild S days. (It also took a long time-just in the last year or so- to get comfortable at the thought of reducing my intake of foods-mostly manufactured products of "Big Food"- that kept getting in the way of moderation and peace.)

I can't commit to letting it go now, but I commit to looking for reasons and ways to do it. The "scanning" stage, as Beth Duffus calls it. The "ways" will probably NOT include going cold turkey, but something analogous to No S. I wish there was an S word for preoccupation so I could make it my fifth S. (No solitary S-ing, meaning no eating S's alone, is my fourth one.)

Or I'll decide it's a positive passion, not an obsession, surrender, start a support group/website, and write my own book. Those might be proper justifications, I hope better than diet guru offerings.
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gingerpie



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't commit to letting it go now, but I commit to looking for reasons and ways to do it. The "scanning" stage, as Beth Duffus calls it. The "ways" will probably NOT include going cold turkey, but something analogous to No S. I wish there was an S word for preoccupation so I could make it my fifth S. (No solitary S-ing, meaning no eating S's alone, is my fourth one.)

I've been toying with the idea of only having sweets, treats and alcohol on truly special occasions. The way people used to have them. Birthdays, holidays . . . social gatherings of significant import. I did some quick mental calculations and figure there would be (more or less) at least one event per month. I'm not sure I'm ready for such a step although I'm definitely drifting in that direction. I'm having some internal resistance to it. I had planned to have a trial run from Dec. 1st to Christmas day but I'v been having failure after failure and haven't gotten very far with it yet. A work in progress.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a more even keel now, but I grapple with the nibbling on S days. I had aspired to let go of "solitary snacking" on S days, but I've been circling the airport on it. Failing doesn't send me into WTH, but I feel resentment that it's an issue, meaning though I work to be at ease with myself no matter what, l want to eat more often than I am truly hungry for, yet I'm rarely at peace with it when I do. I saw a quotation of Keith Richards regarding drug use: "Hey, there's one simple way of never being in that position. Don't take [the drug]. (By that position, I'm assuming he meant regretting it or doing something stupid while wasted.) But there's probably a million different reasons you do." But in the end, I have to "not put myself in that position" often enough to get over the irritating withdrawal and feel the positive effects of the habit.

I was thinking of putting this link on the big board; I'll just put it here for now at least so that I don't add to my long list of bookmarks.

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-25593/7-french-women-share-what-they-eat-in-a-day.html

I find the "health food" choices (goji berries, pumpkin and flax seeds?
Not in Julia Childs's recipes, I don't think), surprising, but they are the exception. I guess along with snacking becoming more common-though not with these young women- the French are influenced by these trends as well. I think what's interesting is that the magazine writers over the years like to refer flippantly to "all that bread/cheese/wine/chocolate" that French women eat and still stay slim. There's not a lot of any of those, in fact, not very much at all. But maybe it's the nature of the women that site host comes across.
I was also surprised by how little "green" there is, but I realize that's a bias on my side now. Very California, I guess. I want bigger servings of green leafies than I see here. And I shall have them! This was just interesting for the portions and variety.

I don't regard myself as eating big breakfasts, but those look darn small to me. And white flour just doesn't cut it for me anymore. I save it for eating out. I don't pattern what's on my plate by these pics at all, as they are a recent find. But it's helpful I think to be aware of what moderate portions are. I'd bet for many women starting No S, these meals would be almost like a "diet:" small portions and not much "reward" food. I'd recommend a slow transition, if people had been used to our manufactured highly palatable foods. That takes some effort, too, as they can be triggering, but the prognosis for staying "abstinent" on them when they're in our faces so often just isn't very good.

I've been reviewing the book "Beyond Addiction," which I read several years ago and found very helpful, though it's written for the families and friends of alcohol and illegal substance dependent users, for myself. " ...lapses and relapses--commonly seen as crises-are a natural part of getting better forMost people go through many stages of change-resistance, willingness, learning and progress, frustrations and setbacks, more resistance, more willingness, more learning and progress." I'm also seeing how much it could apply to my teaching situation, but I could never pull off the distance needed. Well, I don't have to worry much about that for at least five months, and possibly forever, at least not with high school students.

That book also influenced my thinking about "abstinence" with "reward" foods. They say the research shows that abstinence is not necessary or even desirable for all users, but it can be a choice a person makes with experience. It's another bias, but as soon as I read someone recommending to "rid the house of all the junk food" etc., I start to doubt. My house has very little of that stuff now, but how many dieters do that and find they aren't equipped to handle the backlash?

Damn, I know I'm pretty much repeating myself. I've got to go back through my stuff and get it organized. Then my posts might be, "see such and such a date" on my thread, if anyone would be interested enough to go back and look.

Supposed to have dinner out tonight with a new friend before a lecture. I'm voting for a Lebanese restaurant nearby.
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a book at the bottom of someone else's thread but didn't click on it and it hasn't come up again. It was called "Lighter" and was supposed to be about emotional eating. I'm writing about it here in case that brings it up on a future page.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, interesting, books don't show up on my own thread.

Ready for long post? Copied from December thread.

live alone, and rarely have people over, so my only decorations are some cards I received and my Christmas clothing and jewelry. Maybe next year... I love not having to put things away!

And no Christmas notes, though I have two cards to send today.

I''m having small fails but ams still so grateful I have found the incentive to nip away at the bud of my kitty wompus fall. And, dare I say it, I am eating "cleaner" than I ever have. Yeah it makes me a weirdo in a way I thought I would never want, but it's where I am now. I have just not been able to stick with moderation on some of the foods I was eating, though I haven't cut them out. Just waiting for more selective occasions to eat them. I don't know if it was the negative placebo effect, but I surrendered to the shift. Just reading a book on addiction to illegal drugs and in one chapter on choice, the author reports on so many studies that show that maximum pleasure is actually found by parceling out pleasant choices rather than going in the moment for the preferred choice. Not intuitive at all, but another example of Reinhard's grasp on all this so long ago. Both of them associated with Harvard.

By the way, the stats show that most illegal drug abusers completely quit by age 30. They have the advantage of having limited access to the drug, as in there usually being only a few sources instead of freakin' hundreds. What stopped them? Money, family obligations, and status. No such luck here.
I just walked a couple of miles back to my house from having dropped off my car at the mechanics ($600, Merry Christmas to me. This in addition to the crown I need on a tooth, but the second half of that doesn't come until January. But I thank goodness I have the means right now, still being in the employ of the educational devil. ) I could not believe how many food establishments I passed, all of them offering some version of refined wheat, salty stuff and sweet stuff. And a fair number with alcohol. The sweet news was none of them was franchised.

I'm no one to judge by for relative compliance because my life right now is so non-social that I don't face near the excess that others do. Even my Christmas day will have little sugar as I'll be with a non-mainstream crowd. Yet I find that all kinds of cues pop up when I'm out and about to partake. I had already had breakfast but when I found that I was going to have to leave my car, it popped into my head to stop for a snack. I was lucky that it prompted amusement rather than resentment.

Did I say I'm in love with the Cuisinart Griddler I found for 15 bucks a few months ago at a thrift store? that and the barbecue grill mat that keeps me from having to clean the plates too much. I don't have a microwave (just a quirk) and this thing is pretty fast. My hat is off to people who can cook whole meals from scratch just before they eat them.

I cannot believe there are so many women (mostly) out there who have cooking sites on which they post hundreds of recipes they have come up with. A lot of them aren't even that old! I didn't have near the patience when I was as young as they are. Come to think of it, I don't now. Many have families, so I guess that makes a difference. Besides the fact that there seems like so many, I think they are still in a minority.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding to the novelette.


Did something today for the first time in a long time. Ate at my dining room table AND left food on my plate.

Almost snacked this afternoon on walking into a Middle Eastern market where bread baked in a tandoor was coming out fresh and hot. It's very similar bread to what I used to be able to get in Iran, though it was a specialty of a region farther north. When you live in a big city-Tehran had FOUR MILLION people living in it-, you get that kind of variety. It was all over the place in the towns near the Turkish border. It's an excepton for me these days to have bread, especially white bread, but worth it And they had tons of persimmons selling for cheap because they are so ripe. Will have some on my bread for dessert tonight and will freeze a lot, which is what I hope someone does as throwing out as much as I saw that won't sell seems like crime.

Also scored the baby eggplant I need for the recipe I will take to a Christmas non-conventional potluck. I slightly worried about taking it because it's an East Indian dish and there will be Indians there. They will be too polite to tell me it sucks.
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gingerpie



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. I slightly worried about taking it because it's an East Indian dish and there will be Indians there. They will be too polite to tell me it sucks.

Perhaps it will be unrecognizable to them as an Indian dish and they'll just think it's delicious eggplant. 😉

Hope you enjoy your holiday,
Virginia
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ones we made in class were a bit more stuffed than these, but you can see they are rather recognizable.

Yeah, maybe I should disguise it, like layer the eggplant and call it peanut lasagne. Except that I already bought the baby eggplants and they are so cute!

I found out there are lots of different variations on the stuffing, so I get some leeway. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BABm01uUMJc/RflVg5fLRDI/AAAAAAAAAT8/wm3Zr9ZCNbA/s1600-h/DSC_0671.JPG
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fiddle faddled with the recipe for time's sake, and was a little disappointed with the results, but live and learn. A fair amount got eaten and a couple of people commented favorably. I think it actually would work quite well as a casserole.

I basically had just one meal today. The meal was set to start at noon-ish, and I knew I wouldn't be hungry by then if I had any real breakfast. It was closer to 12:30 when we started and with talking, the meal wasn't really over until close to 2. I wasn't stuffed, but I had plenty, and just had a concocted decaf mocha at AM/PM for the drive home around 7:30 pm. I feel the best I can remember after an "eating" holiday, though I usually do okay. I think reading this book on addiction, which the author basically calls just about any activity that ends up being self-destructive with escalating use, helped. It's just a new nuance, showing 1) how limiting most pleasurable behaviors actually increases the overall pleasure derived, and 2) purposely adopting the restrictions to put that into practice takes more mental effort, especially initially, than not. I've been a slow learner on S days and NWS days that I'm going to feel better if I eat a lot less than I actually want to, but that it doesn't have to seem painful not to eat all I want, I guess because I equate that with dieting, but for me, it's just reality and from what I have read in the other recent book, it's rather human, so it's likely not going to go away. But it's an old program for another time, so it takes more mental effort, but it also provides more payoff.

I feel for younger people trying to make such a change. They're lucky if they can but the forces out there are all against them. The drive for continuous pleasure and the frequent opportunities to actually get those experiences can hide that the desires actually escalate, so more and more gets less and less satisfying. But we still want. It can take decades. And for some, it's never clear. I'm sure it's unclear for me somewhere in my life. But it's Christmas! I can go to bed not figuring it out.
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gingerpie



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there will be much to ponder in 2018. But, we'll have a whole year in which to do it so there's no rush.

Glad you had a nice day.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True that, gingerpie.

Am I finally over the habit of buying Christmas candy on sale? I realize I would look for candy that seemed worth the risk. I was in the stores early looking for little stuff to stockpile for next year's get-together with my sister's family. In getting to the bargains ( I found none, BTW), I had to pass the Christmas food aisle. Thankfully, I had overdone it-though modestly in comparison with the past- with fudge-filled chocolate bells in the days before work ended, and I was sure I did not want to trip that wire again, not even for M & M mint+chocolate morsels, which have been one of my last hold outs. Has it really taken 8 years to get burned often enough not to put my hand in the fire, thinking I'll just warm up for a minute? And am I really over it? It doesn't mean I didn't WANT them. Without consciously thinking about it, I realize I spent little time imagining how good the mints would taste and a bit more time remembering the discomfort of either eating too much or dealing with wanting to. My recent reading has helped in the propagandizing. I don't mind calling it that. The food pushers take advantage of our brain wiring to use it, so it makes sense I might need it in defense. It is what it is.
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gingerpie



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how foods have disappeared one by one. Some things are so easy to walk past but others I still have to stop and think about before I continue on my way. As you say, there are still some hold outs that are difficult to shake.

What book are you currently reading? If you said I apologize, I don't recall.
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automatedeating



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also would like the title, if you don't mind.

And, "it is what it is" is my absolute favorite saying for so much of life. A whole lot of wisdom in that little statement.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mind at all! I had just been distracted by other stuff: look, a squirrel!
I decided to just give you the names of two recently-read books. You can skip the rest, if you like Reinhard-like brevity. (Is he not the master of Einstein's "Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler"?)

The Hungry Brain by Stephen Guyenet
Addiction: a Disorder of Choice by Gene M. Heyman


Here is a MUCH longer response than you asked for.

One recently-influential book, much more about "what goes on the plate" than on meal frequency or even habit- a missed point, IMHO- is called The Hungry Brain by Stephen Guyenet, a neuroscience researcher who talks in length about the influence of the "reward" value of food on the tendency for overeating. He also talks about the changes in the food choices in the eating habits of Americans over the course of 100 years, give or take some decades depending on the records on specific food. I was intrigued by a set of graphs he compiled awhile back, not knowing that he had a website.

It looks like this guy usurped the graphs, but here they are:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-graphs-that-show-what-is-wrong-with-modern-diet#section11

Guyenet recently published his book and my library just happened to have it. It's kind of funny that it seems to me that he does in the book what he says won't work: inundate people with lots of facts that don't actually engage their emotions, when making the emotions is what rules most people. I do like facts, though. He also doesn't come up with much hope that any forces in the public sphere are actually going to move in the direction of saving us from our own instincts. He doesn't quite admit that, but my sobering conclusion is that defeating these forces boils down to a level of personal responsibility that only a relatively small percentage of the population can muster. And I'm not even talking about actually being able to get thin, but just to reduce intake to moderate levels. I also perhaps biasedly-not a word, but should be-think that No S + what's on the plate has a much higher chance than most other options. We're not quite voices crying in the wilderness, but close.

A second book was on choice (this one specifically for illegal drug abusers), reinforcing something I already concluded: when the majority of individuals decide or come to the conclusion, and I mean REALLY get it, that the substance use and its "rituals" seriously interferes with other pursuits that they value more, mental or physical, they do the hard work of reducing or quitting the usage without a lot of drama or even a lot of help with it. Anything less than that is just denial in some form, such as subconsciously thinking it will go away on its own or that they will somehow "get away with" pushing the envelope or what here might be NOT putting a fence around the law. It's not TOO hard; it's just not as easy as you want it to be. Applied to food, I'm not talking about asking anyone to do drastic things, but reducing the amount and frequency of high-reward food will likely involve some annoying discomfort and mental effort. (By the way, there was a faction of decades-long users who never quit, who could still function in a satisfying way, and who had no regret about having living their lives hooked.) There was no discussion of how users are affected by long use, as the focus on the book was on whether the disease model actually fits the behavior patterns out there. The author also admitted that a small percentage of people are affected so powerfully that they need intense help to turn the habit around, but not nearly the number the public is led to believe. That one is called Addiction: A Disorder of Choice[/u] by Gene M. Heyman. His main point is that policy on treating addiction isn't based on the facts.

He also explained two categories of choice and how the second one, having to look down the road to see the negative effects of self-destructive but high-reward activities, presents problems that the first one doesn't. This I think corresponds to Guyenet's work in that overeating in general is guided by choice type-1 with the expense of long term bummer effects.

The issue with subtsances like cigarettes, and I say food, is that the odds of self-destruction are actually a lot lower than those of hard drugs, which subconsciosly affects people's choice to battle them. A great number of cigarette smokers are actually NOT going to suffer disease and death.

From me: There is not a one-to-one ratio of obesity and serious disease. Yes, the RISKS are higher, but not as high as implied. For instance, about 65% of the population is overweight or obese, but only about 9% have diabetes, and even they aren't all overweight. From Harvard: Today, roughly 30 percent of overweight people have the disease, and 85 percent of diabetics are overweight. Me again: This means 70 (SEVENTY) percent of overweight people are not diabetic, and 15% of diabetics aren't overweight. It certainly increases the odds of being overweight and developing diabetes, but odds are odds. If I drink arsenic, the odds are 100% death.

The biggest push for thin in the U.S. is about appearance, and an industry that stands to gain incredibly from keeping it going. It exploits a human instinct to get the approval of strangers, which is a primal habit from when it actually did get you killed, or ostracized, to be thought strange-looking.


Gawd I love to hear myself write.
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BrightAngel



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:

Gawd I love to hear myself write.

I, also, love to hear you write. Very Happy
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automatedeating



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many things I love about this post!!
1. I have been a long-time reader of Stephen Guyenet -- good stuff.
2. ABSOLUTELY true about how people need to weigh the long-term risks, and that those work best for PREVENTION. I think of how some kids are shown pics of smokers' lungs and truly never have any interest for the rest of their lives!! On the other hand, once someone already is smoking, good luck digging deep to find that desire to quit, especially since so many smokers WON'T get cancer. All such true stuff!!
3. And on to me personally -- you have nailed my problems (although in your wisdom you did long before you read these most recent books, haha). I have had to come to the point where I'm ready to face mild to moderate discomfort into perpetuity because of benefits that I need.....lowered fasting glucose, lower bp, more comfortable joints, and an increasingly big worry for me -- the long-term health of my children. I am finally motivated to change my diet.

And I must say, in some ways it's like my knowledge of nutrition (and all the crap research that is out there) has made me the ultimate skeptic about the real benefits of so many touted health choices.

Is this a thread hijack? If so, I apologize, but you got me applauding over here!
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gingerpie



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello BrightAngel,
It's good to see you around. You were posting regularly when I joined and remember you well. Nice to know you're still lurking.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Auto, no hijack at all. You're agreeing with me! I salute you in seeing the changes you aspire to not as grossly unfair burdens but even-if-difficult fair ones, given the payoffs.

I probably posted this before, but Valter Longo once reported that even very ill cancer patients who would have benefitted greatly-maybe even the difference between life and death, emphasis mine- from a short term modified fast that is actually only a little less demanding than some diets recommended for long term use, were not willing to do it, much less the water-only fast even more beneficial. He admits you just can't take away people's pleasure. It's sobering and helps me reframe what constitutes pleasure and also how grateful I am that this might help me avoid having to face such decisions.

This is a good discussion especially for me today because I'm starting my winter modified fast according to his program, though without his endorsement! Just because I fully intend to do it doesn't mean my body isn't trying to talk me out of it only a few hours into it, and won't again. Being a senior citizen and knowing that he says evidence is that the protocol is useful only until age 70 inspires me to get in as many quarterly rounds as are reasonable for someone with no big health issues. I think I've done it 5x before; only 22 more rounds to go. If I were younger, it might sound daunting, but now it's almost a race! It doesn't make up completely for lost time, but it's better than nothing.

Just to be clear, my weight is actually a little higher than it was nearly two years ago, when I first started entertaining this kind of mod to No S. Doing something like this can bring on all the same body defenses as any regime that causes weight loss, though supposedly less than consistent calorie restriction. For seriously ill people, who should do it more often to regenerate the immune system more often, it's still recommended to limit it to only once a month, with pretty much regular eating in between, rather than fast for extended times. The increased eating in between is when the body regenerates for inferior cells lost during the fast.

But I hope anyone reading here will put it on the very back burner, as N days and overall moderation are the first glorious lines of defense. Fast between meals!

I wrote to BA separately. She is still going strong, it seems to me, on her site Diet Hobby, if anyone wants to get a lift. I love to think that my thread might bring lurkers together with regular post-ers.
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Strawberry Roan



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:

Gawd I love to hear myself write.


I, too, love to hear you write Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously I have some catching up to do on my reading. Keep up the writing!
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here ya go, r.jean!

I do a quarterly "thing" with eating that I don't want to go into the details of because it has been a diversion on No S (on the main boards) where I never meant it to go. Suffice it to say that it does involve more (very temporary) "delay" than canonical No S, but it's not for weight loss. It lasts five days. Today is my last day. It had been pretty easy up until yesterday. I'm officially ready for it to be over, though I'm not a bit hungry now. But it's not much worse than some of my tough Vanilla days, and many of my days implementing SOMETIMES on S days. And there are some times it feels fantastic, as it did this morning before and when going on a walk of a couple of miles.

The good news is that when I think about what it will be like to be more relaxed about my choices tomorrow, I am not planning to scoop out great gobs of peanut butter or inhale plates of spaghetti someplace they serve way too much.

Although I would get spaghetti if I had someone to go with. I've eaten alone before, and it's okay. Aw, maybe I'll do it anyway.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope you get that spaghetti and enjoy it. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The desire fizzled. I forget what I had instead, but I know I liked it. I'll save spaghetti for a social situation.

It used to be my goto afternoon food after I had exhausted myself on pancakes with syrup and big bars of chocolate all morning. I know now why that was. The body loves variety. Read story of a guy who was challenged in a restaurant to eat a small mountain of ice cream. He was about half way through and was feeling failure coming on. He ordered several portions of French fries and was able to finish it all, going back and forth between flavors. I see that as a good reason not to have sweets every day, but some seem to thrive on them.
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automatedeating



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never actually written this, but what the heck, I've been on this forum for years. Might as well let it all hang out:

I see many many posters make a mod in which they have a piece of chocolate or one sweet every day; and they do this to hopefully avoid going crazy. I guess I should count myself lucky that I absolutely don't need sweets daily. The more I stay away from them the less I think about them. All that said, I never struggled with binge-eating, and I had never really even heard of it until I joined this forum. That is scary, and I count myself fortunate to have escaped that life struggle. So much is the cards we are dealt. We each have our own trials and struggles that we need to find solutions to; and peace for the ones we can't seem to kick.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how many people look at my thread but I am posting info on a free webiinar happening this Sunday presented by Gillian Riley. Her program isn't just like No S, but it touches on some of the tricky stuff that happens in our brains when we try to reduce intake. She emphasizes the element of choice, saying if we try to limit our eating without truly choosing less because it is our freedom to do so and we see the wisdom of it, there will be resentment, rebellion, and likely failure. It might seem like it's opposing Reinhard's philosophy but I don't think it does because I think before he even started, he was convinced No S was a wise choice, so even when it might have been hard, he wasn't rebelling. He was choosing to do it.

I think that's what helped me through tough times: I could not imagine another way to reduce my eating, and I couldn't stand not to reduce my eating. I knew I would have to make hard choices at hard times, but what was my option?

I don't like putting stuff like this on the general board because, well, it's the No S discussion board. But here, I feel more freedom to cite what has helped me. (Though with Riley's book, I read it later and saw how so much of it applied. I think it's a decent companion.)



https://events.genndi.com/register/169105139238437060/9bf1bd2411

Here's her actual site, but lots of reading on other sites can be a rabbit hole of diversion.
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Octavia



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Oolala,
Your mention of Gillian Riley made my ears prick up, as I am fascinated by her work! It’s bed time and I am in danger of rambling incoherently here. Apologies in advance. But...I’ve grappled with her books for years, finding them full of truth and insight, and yet, I never got anywhere with them. With no boundaries except a decision to eat less, my addictive appetite (as I came to describe it) just ran rings round me. I don’t think I ever really grasped what Gillian meant by ‘free choice’ - for me, at that time, calorie counting was a free choice. I tried to drop my interest in weight loss and focus more on future health gain or self esteem, but again, my cheating appetite/brain would just say ‘well, this snack is healthy, and if my weight isn’t important then why shouldn’t I eat it?’ I have filled a hundred journals with my own tragically confused essays about her work and its relevance to my life. 😊

Now I’m doing No S, I find certain statements of hers spring to mind and help me. But it’s fascinating how Reinhard is so different from GR in some ways - he endorses rules, boundaries, and is OK with the quest for weight loss. To me, he has more subtle and clever ways of keeping the lower brain subdued. Or do I only say that because my inner pendulum has swung that way?

Blimey, I could do a doctorate on comparing their approaches. Anyway... thanks for mentioning Gillian Rs webinar! I must check it out. I’m an avid reader of her newsletter! 😊 good night and have a great weekend.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my own interpretation, Reinhard's interest is in moderation that can lead to weight loss but weight loss is not a true goal, as the moderation is. I doubt if he had NOT lost weight if he would have been scouring the internet for other solutions.

On having a goal weight: "I don't think there is much point in having an ideal weight. Have ideal behavior -- habits of moderate eating and exertion. Whatever you weigh then is ideal." from No S diet explanation page.

Gillian doesn't believe in IE, so she DOES have some more guidance than I originally thought, though it is less prescriptive than Reinhard's but I still think No S just jumps to freedom because he recommends the decisions be made because they represent a recognition of a desire and need to reduce excess. So it IS a choice. Hers is called eating less, so that is a goal in her system, too.

So it's not so different. Somethign I completely lforgot when I first read it is her Tools to help identify addictive eating (BTW,I don't believe all desire to overeat is an addiction, but I digress). They are called Times and Plans.

At the end of meal , you determine right then when your next Time to eat will be, and make it a goal to get to that time without eating (read snacking). In No S, you determine when the next meal will be. Her Plan is that when you sit down to eat, you make a decision about what and how much you're going to eat. In NO S, you accept that you are going to fill a plate with your choice and stop at that. You are always free not to keep to your Times and Plans, just like you might eat more than your plate but it will be hard to lie to yourself about it. They both draw a line and it's more obvious when you cross it, which is what is needed for moderation.

He even says you can determine how often you eat, but if you want to be truly moderate, your meals have to be smaller. But YOU are the one making the choice, and YOU are the one CHOOSING that you will pick three times to eat and plan to limit yourself to one plate. You are just not doing it in the moment, so it is a bit different. But her recommending that you use Times and Plans is a mild form of restraint on eating and the goal IS actually eating less, which is related to moderation in my book. A person will certainly get in touch with how much she are caught by food. At that point, she is actually still free to eat anyway on either plan, but she will notice when she does. In neither case are she supposed to bash herself for it. She simply notes and sets a new time/wait until the next meal.

I appreciate No S because it got me to wait longer than I normally would have much faster than I think Gillian's plan would have gotten me. But it also gave me a light at the end of tunnel each day.

I see your point about it being a little too free and easy to lie to yourself. But it seems true that even with No S, it does have to get to the point at which you see," I am the one accepting these limitations. I am breaking my OWN word if I don't. These are MY limitations now, not Reinhard's. "I've experienced the benefits of them and THAT is what is really keeping me at it." And you see that some people do have success with mods and some come back to Vanilla. I do doubt GR's process some, but NO process has a lock on this stuff.


What also always kept me going was that the systematic moderation of meal time has been what traditional cultures have practiced for who knows how long (some because of scarcity), and NO whole culture leaves it up to individuals to choose their times and plans to eat, meaning No S has a validity that no diet or eating plan can match, as far as I know.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Talk" about this stuff with me anytime! I'm still fascinated by it, I guess in part because it still plays a role in my life. Are you going to "attend" the webinar tomorrow morning? I signed up. I do wonder about myself, since I'm not really tortured by it all. Why am I so interested in the fine points? Would it be better to do the tougher-for-me work of finding another pursuit? I never had to get over a hump in my interest in this, but I think I'd have to get over a hump of participation until I felt the benefit with something else, much as I did with implementing the meal habit. There actually was an almost immediate reward in being able to stick with it pretty solidly for a few months. The relief of seeing that I could live 20 days of the month not compulsively overeating was the continuing motivation.

I know I will have a quandary tomorrow, as I'm going to a Shakespeare read-aloud where a local English cafe provides these fantastic scones along with Devonshire cream and preserves. I do "allow" them, though I often say I'll eat only one and nearly always eat two. (There are always way more than needed to go around- there's that opportunity eating stimulus!) There's a part of me that feels there might be a benefit in forgoing them completely, not as a deprivation but because it does bother me some that I feel they're so necessary to the experience. A bit like the fact that I kicked the habit of having popcorn at the movies. That was easier because I"m such a skin flint. In San Diego, I think the price for smallest popcorn these days is about 7 bucks, and that seems like such a bad deal in terms of money and cost to the body, I have no trouble passing it by. But free! I think that's another annoyance. I know better than to be seduced by "free"! Even if it is an S day. I'm finding out that many times when I do skip such food, I am happier afterward. I think I already wrote about this, about whether it's about a sense of control or morality. ARe they the same thing?
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
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milliem



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of what I like about NoS is that it forces you to take a look at food you might have taken for granted and just eaten unthinkingly and ask yourself 'is it worth it?' On N days the question is 'is this snack/sweet/second worth having to mark a red day?' I suppose on S days the question is 'do I really want this or am I just having it because I can?'

Personally, a delicious scone with cream and jam on an S day falls firmly in the 'oh yes this is definitely worth it' camp! There's a reason for the release valve of S days, and seeing some foods as treats that you have rarely but enjoy seems to be part of the process. Is it immoral to enjoy a scone at a cafe on a weekend??
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Octavia



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you join the GR webinar in the end, Oolala? I was working today so couldn’t.
I’d forgotten about Times and Plans. I always thought they were the best things in the GR plan. Sensible, self-moderated boundaries. Somehow I could never stay mindful enough to remember to do them, though! No S is easier to remember, as you can just stick to that 3 meals a day template...which as you said, is what slimmer cultures tend to do. A big plus.

Addiction is a tricky word/concept, I agree. I think it was another stumbling block with Gillian’s plan, for me - maybe it brought with it a subconscious assumption of powerlessness and weakness.

Weight loss as a goal is another interesting one. Formerly, it was an essential component in my motivation. I would agree to moderate my eating ONLY if it led to weight loss. When no weight loss happened, I refused to moderate my eating. This mindset was getting out of hand, which I think is why I came back to No S. I’ve finally realised that I must moderate my eating in order to escape from the terrible cycle of excess. Weight loss or no weight loss.

I’ve just had two rather excessive S days, but not too worried. I’ve only been doing No S for a month. (Including 3 fails, 19 successes, and the rest S days).
An idea for a Mod would be to do Gillian’s Times and Plans on S days. I might consider this in future - but right now I want to stick to Reinhard’s advice and do Vanilla.

Millie - you mentioned the thing of marking a red day. It’s a good point - the Habitcal is being surprisingly motivational to me, in fact. I thought my own (perverse, self-defeating) psychology would lead me to hate it and feel compelled to put fail after fail onto it. But no! quite the opposite. It makes me feel that a day is a big deal - a chance to succeed that will never come again.

Enjoy those scones, Oolala! Maybe you could call them a ‘meal’....a bit like I called a pack of three Marks and Spencer Walnut Whips ‘lunch’ today. Arghhhh! 😩😩😂😂😂
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milliem



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do love a Walnut Whip, sounds like a good S day lunch to me Laughing Laughing Laughing
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clarinetgal



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just stopping by to say hi.👋🏻
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Strawberry Roan



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stopping by to say hi and let you know that I always learn so much from reading your posts. You are an excellent teacher.

Regarding goals, I have no problem setting goals (and adjusting them if needed) Rolling Eyes

Read this elsewhere today -



Not setting goals



Yeah, yeah the beauty's in the journey, but if you have no clue about your destination, you're probably just going to get yourself lost.

"Research shows that actually setting a specific goal makes us more likely to achieve the things we want, and is important especially when we want to make a change," writes Dr. Will Meek in Psychology Today.

It can a bit daunting to sit down and outline all this, but think of it this way: without short and long term goals, you have no foundation to build your schedule upon.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got more to say but wanted to document that I am actually able to work several hours a day on decluttering and cleaning. It is rather peaceful, but somehow, I don't think it would have been back when I was working and inert a lot of time.

AND, I've accumulated about 3,000 steps just walking back and forth between rooms. I set the time for 15 minutes and then go to another room and work there. It's been working well, though it's not completely "Vanilla," as I allow myself the "seconds" of working longer if it really feels like I'm on a roll. I'm a bit miffed with myself because I also wanted to document the process in pictures, lest I have a fuzzy memory of what it was like before. (And so much for Marie Kondo's recommendation to deal with only one category at a time. I could be kidding myself but I think that might overwhelm me, whereas I'm applying Flylady techniques of chunking and thinking it doesn't have to be perfect, to keep me from ignoring the rest of the deck while I suddenly thought it was more important to dig out the accumulated dirt between the planks.
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milliem



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing KonMari at the moment! I really like the category method but I break it down into sub categories to be more manageable. I did clothes last weekend and did general clothing, footwear, outerwear and accessories separately. Next is books and I'll probably do general fiction, general non-fiction, work/study books and recipe books separately. I am a total book nerd and hoarder though so it may be a challenge!
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only goal was to counteract my semi-binge eating. I wasn't sure I could lose weight, and wasn't convinced I needed to for health's sake. When I did lose some, it was in the back of my mind that I might be able to get back to my high school weight I wasn't particularly thin but I also wasn't a careul eater, so I guessed that it might be possible given that I am a lot smarter about my eating. It happened but because of other goals, I guess.

I did attend the webinar. I was surprised there were so few people. I think there were fewer than 30. Addiction was the focus, and she said most people are addicted to food, but also addressed the issue of using the term addiction. She said that no one (and I used this on another thread) that it's very hard to know when something crosses the line into addiction. She asserted that given the problems people have with controlling their eating, she thinks it's a useful model. She said people jump to the conclusion that if you're an addict, you think you have to somehow abstain, but that's not hard and fast at all. She also emphasized one of her central ideas, and I think it's a decent one: that if you give yourself freedom to eat, you can also be free not to eat if you have good reasons not to, not the least of which is that you want freedom from being the slave of your desires.

I asked a couple of questions, probably a little more probing than the others did. I asked if there was a danger of people judging themselves and others if they thought of overeating as an addiction. She said no since nearly everyone is affected, so it's not as if it's about personal weakness. I also asked if she thought it was appropriate for average obese people to expect that they could lose enough to enter the normal BMI range. She sidestepped that, saying that she didn't see why a person wouldn't be able to lose if she used the strategies to move towards eating less. I never said no one will lose weight. I was a bit disappointed that she didn't say, as she does in her book, that having a weight goal rather than self-esteem and health, is risky. Someone got her to say she eats low carb. I knew from her books and a video that she is biased toward it, but she insists that people come to their own conclusions. She said if someone was applying the strategies and not losing, that low carb and fasting might be ways to make that happen. She said nothing of fear that such tactics would send people back into compulsion mode.

She was, of course, offering her six-week course at about $350. It does sound like it has a lot to it, but still. Six weeks seems like way too short a time to really ground a person in her program. One person asked if she could repeat the program. What do you think that answer was? "On, no, I wouldn't want more of your money?" Ha! But she is often working with tough cases, so I guess it's appropriate that she not be expected to offer her services for free.

I do still like her and am glad that she offers an option to dieting and its opposite IE. She is NOT a fan of IE or waiting until hungry, mostly for one the main reasons I think it's extremely risky: you end up often not being able to share meals, which is a very ingrained in our culture, as well as in traditional cultures. By her standards, I'm probably still a practicing addict and I'm okay with that for now. I'm not convinced at all that her tactics would cure me. I wouldn't believe ANYONE who claimed that.

Well, I had a fail today. Oh, well.

I did several hours of work again on my cleaning/decluttering. It's so nice to feel inspired to do it. I had only a few breaths of feeling a bit put upon. Since I work in stints on different areas, I left it unfinished completely in three place, but I thought, I'm not going to put everything on the back burner. I went down to a beach for the sunset. Very gratifying.

I'm awake early enough to go out and see sunrises, though i have to be willing to walk several blocks at least for the sunset. (The beach requires the car.) I used to rail against how dark it was when I woke up, but I realize it will get lighter earlier and earlier and I may be reluctant to be out the door for it. Also some times of the year are better because there will be clouds near the horizon but the rest of the sky will be clear. That makes for the fantastic reflection of the colors on the clouds against the backdrop of a pale blue sky.

Between walking morning and evening and all the back and forth at my house, I walked 12, 820 steps, or 5.6 miles and climbed the equivalent of 9 floors. Not bad!

And on that note, night night.
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Octavia



Joined: 25 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating feedback on Gillian Riley’s webinar - many thanks, Oolala! You’ve no idea how relieved I am to finally be able to discuss Gillian Riley with someone! For years, I felt so alone....😊😭

I haven’t read her books for a while, though I used to study them closely. I always came away with doubts, and now, from the No S perspective, I think she isn’t sufficiently ‘systemic’ in her approach to moderation.

I also think she doesn’t acknowledge the difficulty of being motivated by abstract, higher-brain goals such as possible better health in the future. She should be aware, through her work with smokers, that the concept of future health is not always motivating enough to combat our compulsive pleasure-seeking habits in the moment. I think we humans are more contradictory than that, and the silliest, vainest motivations can sometimes carry more power than sensible, wholesome motivations. Maybe a pleasure has to be combatted with another (reasonably immediate) pleasure? Like, ‘my skirt will fit better tomorrow if I don’t binge tonight.’. But GR would denounce that, I think, because it’s to do with impressing other people. I do see her point. But on the other hand, I think vanity is healthy.

I too like her opposition to IE. It doesn’t fit in with how life is. And from my small experience of it, it makes me over-focussed on my stomach and how it’s feeling. (Usual answer: HUNGRY!) 😂

All the best.
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jenji



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a teapot from a company called... Oolala! Whenever I turn it over to put it in the dishwasher, I think of you. Hope you are having a good day.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How cute about the teapot. Where is it made? Probably not France. I think I may have seen one in a Ross store and considered getting it just for the fun of it. But something changed my mind.

Went to a party last night and got kind of, well, wasted. It completely negated my ability to wander around and eat too much. Not a tradeoff I would do on purpose!

Mostly sticking to my S day mod of Vanilla unless at social events, even though I've had urges to nibble this morning. I'm going to a meeting of a Shakespeare play-reading group where a local English tea shop donates big fantastic scones, one of the flour products I still choose to eat. It's only once a month. I'm not going to kid myself into thinking I will eat only one scone today, but I will plan on that in the future. I will likely not get hungry after that. I know I'll get a yen to munch at some point out of habit, the few times I've held out for not eating because I can (and I WANT to), I was glad.
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you enjoy your party?

The Shakespeare and scones sounds great Smile
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for asking. It actually passed from fun into tolerating a very unpleasant physical experience. No one's fault and one I hope never to repeat at least without being in a hospital because it's a disease I didn't bring on myself. But in terms of company, it was great before that, plenty of laughs, and I was tended by two very kind women who insisted it was not a burden. One was great with words and one twirled the ends of my hair or put a gentle hand on my back and both experiences were wonderfully grounding. It took until Monday morning to completely recover. But I actually felt terrific then. Maybe it was because I had no stomach to eat anything but lightly on Sunday. And I got in a great walk and view of the sunset on the Pacific Ocean. Fantastic color on clouds this time of year. I may go watch from a park near my house that has a view of downtown.

But it would NOT be worth recreating the party experience just for the eventual recovery. Evil or Very Mad

I had a good day Monday with a therapist and attending my musical theater class. I practiced some singing techniques in the FOUR-hour drive up on Tuesday and on a split-trip back on Thursday. I visited a woman I met on the Spark team I lead about eight years ago. This time I spend two nights at her beautiful Encino home on a hill with a fantastic view. It was great to be around someone who wanted to eat sanely. We went to see the Getty museum, the big one. Stunning architecture and views. It's my third time and I would go again soon if I could. I also visited the second largest park in the U.S., located in Los Angeles, which includes an observatory at the top of a hill, natch. I hiked to the bottom and back up to the top in about 50 minutes because I was too cheap to pay $4 an hour for parking. It was free until noon and I started the hike at 11:10. I veered off the beaten path thinking it was a short cut. It was NOT if you include clambering up steep hills that I know took me longer and had me fearing getting found out. The trail was NOT supposed to go where it did, and I ran up against the bullwark of the observatory in a way I knew I wasn't supposed to. I kept waiting for some kind of siren to go off and security people to come haul me away grasping my arms on either side. I ended up having to go along a fence where there were a ton of kids who had gotten off buses. I was mortified to think any of them would climb over the fence to join me. I kept saying, "Don't do this. It was a mistake!" I finally found a place where the fence was low enough for me to swing my leg over and hoist myself up and to the right side. Trust me that it wasn't pretty. But I made it to my car at 11:56. I did some walking later in the day. It added up to a little over 8,000 steps and I climbed 43 floors. Next time I will park at the bottom where it's free and take my time getting up and enjoying the 360 degree views of the Los Angeles basin and then the Observatory, which opens at noon. Thank goodness the temps were comfortable enough for the fast hoof uphill. And thanks to No S for a lighter body to haul, Urban Ranger for having been walking more lately, and the Official One Minute Workout waking up some of the memories of vigorous workouts I've done sporadically over the years.

I had a failure day on the way back. It wasn't a real binge but it was a WTH to some degree. Recovered today, though there were a lot of food thoughts during the morning, and I never got back my decluttering/organizing mojo. Maybe I can squeeze some in before I got to an African dance class tonight. Nah, going to watch the sunset.

The class is aobut (gawd I wish there was spellcheck) 35 minutes away and I don't usually go, but one of the first dance teachers I went (back in '93 or '94!!) to is teaching, still looking and dancing like you wouldn't believe. I htought back then that she was older than I was, but Lordy, that would mean she is near 70. However, she wouldn't be the first 70-year-old black dance teacher I've been to. The other one is a scream, as she will start class saying in a very African accent, "We going to PARTY now!" And then she will outdance any of the students, some of whom are 35 years younger and (American) teachers themselves. She also once said all she needs it a place to dance and a place to sleep, even if it's on the floor. A life of art.
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Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
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Crystal



Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Oolala, I thought I’d leave this here instead of expecting you to read my thread. 😂 Just wanted to comment about minimalism and owning only 2 pair of shoes and very limited clothing. I will admit that it’s much easier to do this in a country with one season, especially since that season is summer. You just don’t need that many clothes when it’s hot all the time. The 2 pair of shoes I own are of the practical variety. I used to love to wear heels with dresses, but when I moved to SG, I decided to give heels up. Too much waking here if you don’t own a car. Stairs, escalators everywhere. Actually, for years, I owned only one pair of shoes. I buy one pair of very good quality (like Clark’s) walking shoes, usually Mary Jane type shoes. They go with just about everything-skirts, dresses, and pants. (I don’t wear shorts.) I wear them every day and replace them once per year. I now own 2 pair of shoes because a friend gave me a pair of tennis shoes that she didn’t want that were in new condition. I use those mainly for walking the dog. If I lived in America, I would be tempted to buy/wear more shoes/clothes. Fashion has lost it’s appeal to me here though because of the heat, the walking, and the fact that it’s very hard (almost impossible) to find clothes that fit me here. Although it’s getting a tiny bit better since losing 30 pounds!
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automatedeating



Joined: 31 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oolala, it sounds as if your life is packed with fun things right now! So glad you are (basically) retired! Yay for you!

I'm not quite sure what happened to you at the party, but it sounds scary. Glad you're OK.

Crystal -- your description of your minimal clothing stuff is awesome!
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Crystal



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read your last entry. I agree that the party experience sounds scary. Hope all is ok.

Love reading about your adventures! I’m sure those views were amazing. And 43 floors!! Wow!
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Current Weight: 228 (14 August 2018)
41 pounds lost so far
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, all.

I went up a local "mountain" last night to try to see the moon rise a little before the sunset. It was hidden behind some clouds long enough that I gave up and started down so that the twilight could light the way down. (It was an absolutely stunning sunset on one of the clearest days I'd ever seen up there.) I tell this because that mountain is about 55 floors and I could feel them from the very bottom! I thought, shouldn't this seem easier after last week? But I was motivated, so I made it. The moon payoff didn't happen, but it was still worth it.

I fell asleep early and awoke just around the time the eclipse process was supposed to start. Normally, Id' just lie quietly and try to go back to sleep, but I took advantage and pulled the shade up to watch. I had already decided I would go down by the beach to watch the moon set, so I put on my clothes and just dozed and watched. I felt very lucky to be able to take advantage of not having to be anywhere else in the morning. I never did get tired during the day, though. The feeling of freedom had me seriously considering getting pancakes out for breakfast afterwards. I'm so glad I didn't. That just harkens back to too many days of overage.

I've decided that I'm going to start recording what I fail with, even though I'm not particularly intent on crushing failure right now. I just want the evidence to pile up.

Failures 1/31: a spoon of peanut butter before leaving for the water; some peanuts in the shell, another spoon of PB, and two tangerines off my tree mid-morning, as well as doctored coffee all morning. I had gotten used to not relying on between-meal caloric drinks. Eventually, I will get there again.

I had lunch around 2. Probably less than three ounces of dark meat turkey with a Cuban tomato sauce with a tablespoon of coconut oil added, a half an acorn squash, and a lettuce, sweet peppers, and cabbage salad. The turkey dish was the salad dressing. I'm pretty sure I didn't have any fruit. That doesn't seem like a lot of food, but I still feel so full. I don't officially count calories, but from the old days, I'm pretty sure the day was under 1200 calories, and probably even less. But I'm stuffed and I walked 4 miles today, so it isn't as if it's because I was a sloth. I miss not being able to enjoy eating a dinner, but I know I'd be sorry later, so I'm letting it go.

I've had an old school, big ass TV since 2002, one I bought at a yard sale for 70 bucks, sitting in a TV cabinet annoying me because the picture had gotten so dark. Plus I had cancelled my cable service. A woman on Nextdoor asked if anyone had an old TV that her daughter could use for a project for her boyfriend. Score for both of us! I kept waiting for some electronics recycling event that was close enough to take it to. Ha! she picked it up. But my living room is strewn with all the other media that was stored in the cabinet. Probably 20 VHS tapes! As well as a ton of DVDS and CD's. I keep looking on the net to see if there is anything to be done with VHS tapes that isn't just passing the buck, but I never find anything. GAWD, I hate the picture of them NOT rotting in a landfill. or sitting collecting dust on the shelves of some thrift store- believe me, I've seen them. I bought some of them! Well, they will at least go in their own box for a bit. NOT in the cabinet. I'll make one more stab and ask on that same neighborhood media site if anyone has suggestions. If nothing good comes of it, I will just have to stop thinking to save the world by keeping the tapes with me.
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you near a beach, Oolala? How splendid. What are you thinking of retirement? I am part time this year (subbing in health rooms.) I have to go back next year for the benefits-- Cobra is killing us LOL. I hope you are rejoicing in your puttering time.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I live in San Diego. But it's ridiculous how seldom I've gone to the shore for almost the whole time I've lived here. The water is cold to me, even in summer. Yet I don't have to go in, do I? When I would leave work, I'd fool myself into thinking I'd go home and get some more done, but rarely did. I also very rarely went to a beach, which I could have done pretty often. There's something about almost always going alone that bothered me more than going shopping or other things alone. But I'enjoyed it this month.

I am definitely enjoying my puttering time! But I wish I felt more like I wanted to go back in July for one more year. I need a new garage and Medicare supplementary plans are a little scary. I'll be 65 in September. I dread researching it all. I guess I need to be able to make some decisions by March, six months ahead of my birthday. March is not so far away...

Did your husband change jobs? What's your insurance situation, if you don't mind saying?
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
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Larkspur



Joined: 06 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is self employed with a busy practice. The ACA is so expensive and unstable right now, my Cobra is the best bet. (I stopped working full time this year. The job was pleasant & low stress but comically low paid except for the insurance.)

I like some aspects of working-- the people, being useful, not ruminating or websurfing to excess! I have to be very intentional about how I use my time. I literally have to turn my wifi off if I want to be productive. I am happier if I don't look at Facebook or websurf during the day. And money is great. But I love having better sleep and more energy, being able to be relaxed and present for my family. I make homemade sourdough and start seeds and fill the house with flowers. My husband likes the less stressed out wife. If Cobra were not a thing, I'm not sure I'd go back full time, but it is, and that's probably all fine too Smile

Could you get the AARP supplement to start with? I believe there are actually consultants who will wade through the morass for you. My dad had one help him.

Turning off the wifi now <G>.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My older sister recommended both of those, AARP and finding a consultant/broker. I'm suspicious of brokers. Can they remain objective enough to offer the plan that's right for me and not what they get the best deal on? But I will get on this when I get a few more things cleared out of my house.
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
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jenji



Joined: 26 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite the coy moon, your sunset excursion sounded great. Thank you for being such a big part of this community.
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen, you're a doll. And a poet. ("Coy" moon.)
_________________
Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
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jenji



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oolala53 wrote:
Jen, you're a doll. And a poet. ("Coy" moon.)


LOL
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oolala53



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eating feels pretty good. There's been progress on exercise, though I missed logging my 1-minute stint yesterday, so my streak ended. I really wanted to have a perfect February. It also hurt because I have a new daily kinda warmup routine I did and I got in 6.6 miles of walking to and from a couple of events. But I wanted to have the streak on the official site! I guess I have to aim just for beating my longest streak, which was nine days. I'll get to 24 by the end of February. A nice even number. And I'm not discounting what I DID do.
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oolala53



Joined: 06 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read awhile back something very interesting on Stephen Guyenet's (he's a neuroscientist who has been studying fat accumulation for years, maybe decades)site about circulating insulin and fat accumulation. That is purported as one of the reasons for increasing the gap between the eating windows, to keep fat accumulation down. Here is a quotation:

"These studies (he cites several) suggest that insulin sensitivity in the liver is important for whole-body insulin function, and that low-grade inflammation can impair insulin signaling in the liver, just as it does in other organs. Together with studies showing that preventing the increase in circulating insulin that occurs on fattening diets has no impact on the rate of fat gain in rodents or dogs (9), this suggests that high circulating insulin per se is neither necessary nor sufficient to cause body fat accumulation.

* This does have some hypothetical basis, which centers around the proposal that high circulating insulin causes leptin resistance in the brain. In cultured fat cells, insulin exposure increases SOCS3 expression (10), raising the possibility that the same could happen in other cell types. The reason this is relevant is because in the hypothalamus, SOCS3 is one of the main negative regulators of leptin signaling during the development of obesity.

However, I'm fairly certain that insulin has not been shown to suppress leptin signaling in the hypothalamus, and the studies reported above would suggest it does not do so under normal circumstances.[/url]

It's sounds likely that there is some other mechanism that contributes to the body being "willing" to lower its fat stores, and there are other advantages to longer gaps between between meals, or at least as I read in the many books I consulted on it over the course of about a year and a half. The books can be rather incestuous in that they draw on a lot of the same data and seem to leave out opposing conclusions. Haven't we all been ones to do that at times! Certainly teens (high school students, anyway) are very good at it.

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/8/6/354

Quote:
[url]This review confirms that in the little long term evidence available, IER achieves weight loss but there was no evidence that it provided superior management in comparison to CER. Furthermore dropout rates were similar in the IER and CER arms of the included studies, suggesting that long term adherence to IER may be similar to CER and therefore present a successful alternative for individuals who find CER too restrictive in dietary choices during weight reduction. Larger, longer-term trials of 12 months or more are needed to fully investigate the effects of IER on weight loss, weight management, and diet sustainability.[/url]
[url]

I don't actually mean to keep the focus on IF going, as its only tangentially in my field of "vision," andI like keeping the focus on Reinhard's original vision. No matter what, though, whatever is sustainable for any one individual is superior. Varady was very surprised that a later study reversed her conclusion based on her year -long study that her subjects were more likely to adhere to the protocol long term. In the new one, regular old calorie reduction spread throughout the day kept more subjects involved. In relatively recent history, I haven't read of any slim societies that practice much smaller eating windows than we do, so it's still my go to.

In any case, a modified Vanilla is feeling good right now. It's not really canonical, but I do sometimes play it by ear to skip dinner, usually when I feel still feel very full in the evenings. For some reason, no matter what I eat a big dinner, a small one, or none, I still desire breakfast, even though for months,I was skipping it with little issue for months. I thought that would be the new regime, but it fell apart and big refeeding took off. Not a huge issue, now that it seems reversed and since weight loss was not my focus, and I remained as low as I had been before I started anyway, it was a decent experiment. When I get more used to time off, I may change my eating hours more consistently. And I love my morning doctored coffee and breakfast!

I'm also trying to wean myself off my "compulsive overlooking" of at the data out there. All things considered, I have a pretty good routine for my purposes. I need to work on "life in between" my meals. Others who have that down might have more fun the scanning the different POV's. I know I have!
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Count plates, not calories. Three a day. 8 years & counting
Age 64
SBMI Jan/10-30.8
Jan/12-26.8
Mar/13-24.9 Stayed at +/- 8-lb. for three years Sept/17 22.8 (but more fluctuation)
Mar/18 22.2

There is no S better than Vanilla No S.
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automatedeating



Joined: 31 Aug 2013
Posts: 2676

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have noticed I have periods where I am perfectly content to skip breakfast; and other phases where I am raring for food in the morning. I personally haven't found a clear pattern; there probably is one, though, and I'm just missing it.

Skipping dinner? That has not been in my box 'o tricks, ha!
_________________
Month/Year-BMI
8/13-26.3; 8/14-24.5; 5/15-26.2; 1/16-26.9; 9/16-25.6; 8/17-25.8; 11/17-26.9; 3/18-25.6; 8/18-24.5; 10/18 - 23.8
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