oolala53

[oolala53]

I have a rental- I live in one side of a duplex- here in San Diego and a duplex in Utah. But what I was interested in was something more ambitious: an apartment building. It's a whole other ballgame. You get your dough on those by being the person to find and broker a deal using investor money. I would want to do only a deal or two for the express purpose to make the money I would then spend on long-term care insurance. That's all I want! but I don't want to have to keep working to get that money, and it's a little too much on my budget now, since I got into my career late. Of course, I am kicking myself for not being brave enough to buy it before I turned 60 (six and a half years ago).

Tripped the overeating wire last week for various reasons and it took a few days to right myself. Appetite is still wonky. I opted to try to go for a longer overnight fast last night because of how my meal timing turned out, but I was miserable by 9 p.m. in a way I haven't been for years. Ate some food. So, red day, though I didn't go crazy.

I will opt today to eat some dinner even though I'm not hungry before I go to my next-to-the last acting class of this series. I haven't been doing what I should be doing between classes, but what's new? Geesh. I have so much time but not much productivity, though I am trying NOT to berate myself over it, just observe.

I am going to call Kaiser and get authorization for some therapy, though they support only relativelly short term work. Given how messed up someof my friendships are right now, I need the outlet.

[oolala53]

Back in the groove but I spend very little time eating with other people, so not much reason to eat beyond reason.

I have gotten narrow in my eating in a way that I started No S saying I never wanted to have to do, but I just find that it makes more sense for my health to just eat what I think of as higher quality food as much of the time as possible, which means almost always when I'm at home where I'm in the driver's seat. This means some of the things I used to stubbornly refuse to think I couldn't eat in the right amounts are hardly ever on my plate now. I admit that I feel a little sad about that at times, especially since they are the absolute backbone of nearly every restaurant in America. I don't say never, either, but right now, I'm liking things the way they are. I don't like that there is a bit of moral righteousness in it, but I don't know how to get rid of that now, so I'll just bide my time.

I've stopped tracking my food, too. Two months was enough, I think. I have a pretty good sense of what I need to get my protein in, which is a rather low amount by most diet standards, but they are not all looking at extending healthspan, it seems to me. As of now, it's worth the tradeoff. BTW, having the protein limit and the other restrictions sometimes made it hard to actually get to even the calories that I supposedly need to maintain. I think I've said that before but will not look to find it now.

I have also some days that because of supreme lack of hunger, still not without DESIRE for more food, I end up eating only two meals, definitely under maintenance. But to eat that last meal would be forcing it, and I sometimes do that, too.

(I visited a friend I hadn't seen in months last Sunday. I had given him, at his request, one of my copies of No S years ago. He didn't ask much more after that. I knew from various conversations that he was still interested in losing weight, but had not really tried No S. He was pretty chunky. He was a vegan. I never asked him what he thought he was overeating, but I'm guessing it was bread and sweets, and rather compulsively, not just big meals. Anyway, not sure where he got the idea, but he limits himself to two meals a day, the first around 10:30 and the second usually done by 5. (Like me, he doesn't have much of a night eating-out social life.) It sounds like because of No S, he doesn't snack and eats about a plate or bowl of food at each meal. He says he eats what he wants. Well, he doesn't want any animal food, so that limits things there. He's lost 43 lbs. Still got a tummy, but I noticed the loss right away. This is his new and likely permanent pattern. I told him not to be surprised at some point that it might seem hard, that he might get a lot of urge to overeat or start snacking, seemingly innocently, as the body tries to get that fat back. If he understands what it is, it might help him to decide to put up with the urges and ride the waves. But I think his eating schedule does allow him to go int and out of ketosis, which has at least temporary appetite suppression. I continue to be intrigued by that but even after a month last year of waiting until 10:30 am to have anything, I still dreaded it every day. I am waiting until 8:30 these days, and I still don't like it! Especially since I wake up at 4 or 5. But there are brain-healthy reasons to do it, so onwards I go.

Thus, without exactly intending it, no surprise, it looks like I've lost four pounds since the beginning of 2020. I say looks like it because I usually weigh for a week and then average but decided to take a look today, and that's where it is. I suspected as much because some pants are fitting differently, too. I will be going for my yearly body fat assessment this month. They don't actually need your weight to determine that, but it just gives some numbers to work with. I've decided to throw a little more money into measuring and take a VO2 and calorie usage test, too. I usually do this kind of thing after I do my spring rejuvenation program, but I think that isn't as realistic as doing it before that. I am hoping this will give me some oomph to make exercise more consistent. Am I really still saying that? Year after year goes by and I don't make it happen.

The annoying thing about this is that I have also been spending way more time thinking about it and writing about it online (on Spark) than I really want to be. When will this focus be over? Will I ever live where I hardly think about all this for days at a time and get on with other stuff? Still nothing else is as compelling. Yet our country, nay, most of the world, is in such a grip of compulsive overeating that it does seem to be a legitimate area for attention. Jane Brody reported that it's estimated that within only then years, HALF of the population will be obese. Not just overweight, obese. And nearly one in four will be severely obese. Twenty-five percent! Good Lord. While we still hold out that being at the low end of the BMI scale should be the ideal.

Off for my glorious coffee.

[oolala53]

Such a different world since my last post.

I went to my last party for awhile for St. Patrick's day last Saturday. My friend has one nearly every year. It was a great send off to social life for awhile, though people were being risky, IMHO. It was the first year I left without feeling stuffed. Skipping the corned beef and desserts sure made a difference. I'm not a purist, so I had plenty of potatoes and other veggies that had been cooked with animals. Tasted like my parents' cooking!

I am actually quite inspired to eat even better during this time. I read in high school and taught a few times The Diary of Anne Frank. And last Sunday, I re-watched the film The Pianist about the Polish concert pianist who managed to survive the Jewish ghetto in Poland during WWII. Reinhard said in the book that early humans had to endure hunger that makes our complaints seem like a joke. The diary and movie put things in perspective, too, though it's a lot more obvious to hear and see the enemy and bombs and not have access to much food. If the country is as crippled as some say we could be, real food shortages may actually become serious. I was a bit impressed by how much junk food was left on the shelves. People are going for the staples. That's how you know no one is starving. I think 72 hours fasting and no other food available would be my limit before I went for the candy and Poptarts. A client of mine used to misquote someone, saying every man is nine meals from revolution. (It's actually anarchy, but close.) But I don't have anything like that in the house now. I sometimes look up in my cabinets as if some will appear. The body still wants them.

Fat people would definitely have an advantage in a true food shortage. I remember once reading a comment on the death camps, that fat people got skinny and skinny ones died from the lack of food. I remember another report that a woman in hiding for a fair amount of the war, with very little food, never got really skinny. She has such an efficient metabolism. It probably saved her from a lot worse problems. Maybe this will all get worse and the U.S. with 66% of people overweight at least, will prevail!

I did my weeklong weighing, then averaging this week and I had lost 3 lbs, not 4, since the beginning of the year. Fine by me. Just glad to be back to sane eating. I weigh a few lbs. more than I did two years ago. I can live with that, too.

I'm caving to the IF thing and going officially for 16:8 window, though some days this week was even shorter. It's no party, I know there are people who keep saying it's the easiest diet they've ever done. What are they talking about! I don't like not being able to have my doctored coffee early, especially when it's cold, and I like being able to eat later in the day, too. But it's doable, and I want that ketone action! Not looking for weight loss, though.I may at some point break down and get some keto strips or sugar testing or something to see if anything along those lines is happening.

I'm repeating for anyone who hasn't read all my thousands of posts that I went back to crazy eating some of the other times I tried this or other restricted eating. I say it was because so many IF-ers say you can eat anything in your window. SOME people can. I I never got that "appetite correction." I don't care how short my window is, I do not believe that a whole package of Cheezits or Cheetos is a good idea, and certainly not the cookie dough or frosting I went back to. And less than a lot never felt easy. So here I sit with my mostly whole grains/starches, mostly plant foods, some seafood, great fats, beans. LOVE them! But the only store that sells my favorite, rye berries, has been out since before the crisis. I can deal.

But in between, starting today, I'm on my spring 5-day regime. Immune system, baby! And no diversion from possible eating out/social eating. Convenient too, that it means I am using up my store of food even more slowly, which might be significant, though I guess food production is not getting curtailed. Though we might run into manpower issues on that front.

Going for my testing after this quarantine is over. I'd like to have my eating normal for awhile beforehand, so this should work.

WHAt a privilege to be blathering on about food.

[oolala53]

I don't want to get maudlin, as I'm sure everyone will have some kind of story when this is over, but a COVID-19 death has affected my extended family-by-marriage. I am amazed because at that point, CA had lost only 19 people to it. How can I have a connection when the odds at this point are so against it? He was only 53, married very late, with three young children. RIP and God help his wife, my sister's second cousin-in-law.

[automatedeating]

Very sad to hear about this, Oolala. Shocked and surreal, you must feel.

[oolala53]

TX, auto. It was a little weird, but has been overshadowed by ensuing events for so many. And in the grand scheme of things. is not that different from millions of other deaths that happen every day but which we aren't willing to read headlines of every day. Oh, I'll get off that soapbox before I get too comfortable.

Not that many people are reading me these days but just to say, I hope the following rant offends no one. I don't know where else to put it. I guess i could just make a Word doc and keep it between me and myself.

Because of this continuing issue with appetite, I've been looking at some other sites, ones where people claim they feel in tune with their needs for their weight. I can't tell if one of them is helping me or not, though. People on it keep talking about how easy it's been, but I don't find the tactics easy at all. (Rather not go into details.) It's a huge site with lots of testimonials. It finally dawned on me that despite the successes there, and all the excitement around them, that nobody keeps track of how many people try and give up sooner or later. I'm betting it has a big failure rate as well, but that's not going to get posted. And there is no questioning the wisdom, which I guess is fair. I could go on a big site devoted to any really popular plans and see the same thing. t's just another way to manage and decrease intake, although a better one than many, I think. They like to pooh pooh calories, and believe me, I have read plenty info on the cracks in the CICO wall, but intake counts! It is definitely not everything but it's something. And of course, practically no one there knows what calories they are actually eating, but I can tell you, from what they describe, I would bet most successful people there are eating around two-thirds to half of what they were eating over the course of a month when they were overweight/obese. They just seem to be able to do it without some of the drawbacks of just aiming at the calorie count. It irks the heck out of me that they don't think of themselves as restricting calories. Sure, they aren't setting calorie limits that they stick to, but if you're eating way less than you used to, no matter what your reason- you just aren't that hungry could be one-, you're restricting calories. At least in my book. Most are living on far fewer calories than they used to. I know it's not only restriction (eating less) that leads to the loss. though there is so much conflicting information on results from different systems. We all cherry pick our evidence! I will say I am very glad for many of the people there because they were really suffering and now don't feel they are, just as the adherents of many other systems feel they have found their way.

So, what's the real problem? It's that it has me feeling I am missing the boat, and not meeting a standard I ought to be able to. Oh, these standards! This constant sense that I'm supposed to be a better person! How does it get reconciled with being enough, right now? It's a paradox, I guess. I mean, I'm not sitting in misery for hours at a time, but I do feel I often have to manage my thoughts even more than my eating.

And on that note, I will go do something to make me a better person.

[gingerpie]

What would we think about if we didn't think about food and how would we behave if we were secure in ourselves?

Profound questions to ponder

Hope you are well

[oolala53]

The secure in ourselves one is the real key. I am aware of a deep down sense of a lack of safety and have been for awhile. It's not on the surface, but it bubbles up in all kinds of ways, especially the ease in which I get irritated with other people, on the phone, the few times I am in stores, etc. My philosophy teacher calls it "the deep well of despair in not really understanding our real foundation." I dip my toe in there several times a day, but am taking yet another meditation course to grapple with it. I don't have any glowing reports, but am not willing to try many other options, and there has been a smidgeon of progress.

Well, I have instituted some rather serious eating mods in 2020. It felt like time. It's not smooth sailing every day, but many days and most of the time, I feel I have surrendered to the changes. I occasionally fantasize about some foods not on the "plan," but I am willing to visit the possibility of planning a couple of them in on specific, infrequent occasions, and in moderate amounts in the future, for social reasons.

So, my summer solstice weigh-in week followed an uncharacteristic willingness to try a 3-day plan meant to amend the gut microbiome and make it easier to be in line with caloric need. It was risky because most of the people who use it are eating diets way less natural than mine has become, so it was unlikely to have the profound effect promised. Maybe it was just a self-fulfilling prophesy that the pendulum would swing; I did some reactive compulsive eating after I finished, and 8 days after I finished the plan, my average weight was up by half a pound, not down. It just never works for me to secretly or not so secretly intend weight loss. However, with the 2020 changes I surrendered to for healthspan reasons, I am down 9 lbs. from last December, at the second lowest weight of my adult life. I weighed about this amount when I was a freshman in high school- not svelte because a little shorter- and for a short time in my early 30's when miraculously able to do IE for the blink of an eye. (The only time I was even slimmer was after months of traveling in India and Nepal, rather naturally falling into a rhythm of eating a couple of meals a day with an early coffee and walking for hours a day with no obligations or big worries. Can't imagine why I haven't been able to recreate that...) I can't say it is completely carefree, but I'm not CONSTANTLY dreaming of being able to eat other stuff or planning for it to be over. I get a kick most days out of preparing my meals. I really see it as long term. SIL and restrictions have helped as I vowed not to bring much refined food into the house. Me and unrefined starch got a good thing going, with a few eggs, an ounce or so of goat feta, and dead fish a few times a week in addition. I wish it was possible to post pics. I tried, but a simple pic of one of my plates of food was deemed too large. I do post them on the Facebook group and Spark.

It does make me a weirdo. but I'll face the repercussions of that when it's time to try again to have an in-person social life. Hell, I'm in California; some women on a Spark team I'm on are even stricter than I am and live in places where they are really fish out of water. And don't seem to fret about it.

[lpearlmom]

59C4BA80-0808-4D45-91F5-8CAE4113F307.jpeg (37.72 KiB) Viewed 126293 times

Glad you’re in a good place (more or less) with your eating. Im impressed you’re sticking with meditating. I can never really get started with it but sure it would be helpful. Also, did i miss something? Are you living with your sister in law (sil?).

I was finally able to post a pic but think i had to choose “small” for image size.

Yup, i posted a random photo to test it. When i clicked on the photo from my ipad , at the bottom of the photo, it said to “choose image size” so I choose “small” instead of “actual size”. Hope that helps!

[automatedeating]

It does make me a weirdo. but I'll face the repercussions of that when it's time to try again to have an in-person social life.

Hurray for weirdos!

[oolala53]

Hi Linda and Auto! tx Linda for posting the pic. I' just tried again but when I click on the pic, I get no option on the size. It just goes straight to telling me it's too big. sigh I used the tab at the bottom that says "attachments>"

[oolala53]

Forgot to say that SIL for me is "shelter in place."

Here's something new and not fun. I've started to have the symptoms of heartburn. NOOO. I have been feeling like I am basically in the groove, and don't want to have to mess with it much. I've cut so many foods from my life, willingly, but able to do it because I like the ones I do get to eat and sure don't want to have to give up any more of them. But I also don't like the idea of taking meds. Ok, I'm kind of jumping the gun here. I will contact my doctor but will also try a different eating schedule, although I was liking the one I was using. However, I was planning to adjust it anyway, I just was easing into it. Might have to speed things up.

[automatedeating]

That is such a bummer about the heartburn! I only get that as "payback" for: alcohol and/or pizza.

[oolala53]

Last night, it dawned on me that I could use bicarbonate of soda. The burning weakened by the time I went to bed and hasn't been back. I ate takeout from a vegan "fast" food restaurant, including French fries, so I got a mix of my regular foods and heavier stuff. So far, so good. (This is when there can be an advantage to foodd records. I have often been taking picutres of my meals; I guess I could go back and see if there is anything that could be the culprit. Since so many meals are made of basics from big batches, there will be repeats in the next week or so. We'll see if the burn returns. I may have even spoken too soon today.

[automatedeating]

Gum has been the best "cure" for me on the occasions I've suffered from mild heartburn.

Oh, and and update/edit: I have been reading about sauerkraut this morning, and discovered that some people use it to find relief from their heartburn. Maybe it's worth a try. I keep running across this paradoxical thought that heartburn is actually caused when there isn't enough acid in the stomach to keep the food moving along and so it sits there too long and begins to relax the sphincter at the top of the stomach. I'm still confused by this, but pondering.

[lpearlmom]

Oh darn sorry about the pic but even more sorry about the heartburn. :/ I’ve written about it on my thread but struggled a lot with it over the past few years. I think everyone has different triggers so yeah it’s good to a keep a diary and try to find your triggers. Here’s what helped me—gave up all carbonated drinks, gave up caffeine (100%), try not to eat 2-3 hrs before bedtime, no red wine and sleeping on a wedge pillow. Giving up caffeine was the hardest but also made the most difference. Yes about 1/2 tsp of baking soda in a glass of water helps. That’s what I used to do when I was fasting. A lot of the reflux prescription meds are pretty scary but I take otc Pepcid ac most nights before bed and supposedly it’s pretty harmless.

Auto: I’ve read that too but call bs. It seems like it’s a lot of the anti-medical folks saying that but who knows?

Anyway, hope it doesn’t turn into a big issue but if it does.you can definitely manage it. Just takes a little detective work which I know you’re good at.

[oolala53]

Funny that this is the topic because the heartburn had gone away since I posted about the bicarb soda, but tonight I feel it very mildly and I have had mostly veggies and nuts today, plus a few olives. Doing my quarterly thing.

You won't believe it but I am considering paying for course on eating. I feel like there are just a few what I might call loose ends for me in eating, places where I am vulnerable to overdoing it and I haven't been able to figure it out on my own. I don't mean just a little overeating, but the experiences of telling myself I won't eat more of X when I have really had a reasonable amount but then eating more and sometimes a LOT more. Am I trying to stay at too low a weight? i don't think so ,but I also accept that as a person who lost weight, my body is going to try at times to get me to get the fat back, but it's a mistaken desire on my body's part, IMHO. But also, to curtail how much time I still spend on all this just whirling around in my own head, reading, and writing on Spark. If I could use it more systematically with other people and make an impact, that might justify it, but I know I also need to develop other interests and abilities. I have not even put on my tap shoes since April, I think! Stuff in the house, stuff in the yard and too much sitting. I could have learned to play some kind of musical instrument in all the hours I've spent on this even after I'm actually at a good weight! Is it a passion or obsession? I'm okay with asking for guidance. And I am hardly spending money, so this won't be breaking any bank.

But don't be surprised if I come back in a few days and talk about some of the stuff I've learned during obsessing.

[Larkspur]

Well, it IS pretty compelling if you have struggled with weight. Part of what I like about this board is that people are metabolism/diet nerds who have read All the Things. If I were forty pounds lighter would it still interest me as much? I don't know! It's sort of a habit! You are super knowledgeable and generous with your time and the need is certainly out there if you wanted to do coaching or the like.

[oolala53]

Well, since I never had any real health issues- though they may have developed later-...

Yes but was I struggling for the right reasons? Actually, I don't think of myself as having had a weight problem as much as I had an addiction to terrible foods and wrestled with the societal expectation of media thinness as a statement on my worth and lovability. I know I'm not alone in that and some people are so entrenched by it that they don't even question it. "Of course I'm going to feel better about myself if I"m thinner!" I remember an episode of The Big Bang Theory in which Sheldon asks Penny something like, "Oh, are you one of those women who thinks her worth is diminished if she's fat?" and Penny shouts, "Yes!" as if there were not an alternative. I started questioning that in my mid-twenties, but not to the point I was at any kind of peace over it. Resisting changing my eating because I didn't want to pander to "the tyranny of thinness" held me back from handling the very real compulsive eating problem. I think loving one's body is a very hard ideal to reach, and not one in previous ages taking up much space in what makes for a good life, as far as I know. Of course, they didn't hate the look of their bodies, either In other words, it wouldn't have had the impact as a struggle for me if I had not been so ashamed of not being able to tame my eating enough to be thin. With No S, I set out to focus on dismantling the disorder, and have remained more intrigued by the influences on appetite. How can i know the real McCoy, how can I cooperate with it, have uplifting ("healthy") pleasure, but not let it rule my life? But the focus has taken up a lot of real estate, and still does.

But I do think these days that there are very good reasons to keep my eating "tamed," though not in a panicked or strident, I hope, way. Paradoxically, I think it's the reduction of calories that has health advantages, and the weight loss mostly follows, so that even people who don't become thin but are willing to eat less than they would really like, especially of modern foods, are at an advantage. Whether we like it or not, the common fare of food leads to a fair amount of disease, fat or thin. When America was thin and eating more of the supposed fattening foods, we still did have health problems, and we certainly died much sooner than long-lived cultures. Our life expectancy has lengthened as we have grown fat, but I don't think our healthspan has.

I know one of the things that holds me back from really going for the eating coach stuff is that I have not been able to find other outlets that don't just seem like they are a way to pass the time until I get to eat again or read about not eating or communicate with others about not eating. It's still a kind of preoccupation. How can I help others be free if I'm actually not?

It's interesting to me that at least one woman who works with compulsive overeating sounds like she never had an issue with it. I guess therapists deal a lot with problems they don't necessarily have, but it makes me wonder where her interest came from. Almost like, 1) how can you really understand the issue, and 2) isn't there something even bigger for you to want to handle? like the expansion of their lives beyond the preoccupation?

Speaking of being obsessed... I'm going to tear myself away and do the dishes.

[Octavia]

Resisting changing my eating because I didn't want to pander to "the tyranny of thinness" held me back from handling the very real compulsive eating problem.

Me too, in a big way. It’s been a big stumbling block, and I wish the diet writers/experts would focus on what seems to me a very natural conflict of interests.

I agree, how would someone who’s never been through compulsive eating be able to counsel others? Why would they want to specialise in that area? You’d be a much better coach than those folk...in fact I’m reminded of something a young religious friend said to me a while ago: ‘the best priests are the ones who doubt’. Maybe he made it up, but I believe it! Those of us who still wrestle with the demons can still help others.

[oolala53]

Thanks, Octavia!

Well, I've been going through a bit of a dark night of the soul about all this eating stuff. I thought I had written about it, but it looks like I haven't and I'm not up for it now. But I had talked on another thread about the book Never Binge Again and two members there expressed a little curiosity. I was reluctant to bogart the thread so I'm posting here what I had written and then decided to move.

I first did not like Never Binge Again because of the pig metaphor, and I actually still don't like that. Apparently when Livingston first started, he dealt with a lot of men, which made more sense to me because although men can feel bad about their bodies, it's well-documented that the relationship between body and self-esteem is much stronger in women, Lord help us. And the concept of even vaguely connecting being overweight with pigginess kept me from looking at the book very carefully. But now there are mostly women involved and they don't seem to be bothered, though the ones who are probably don't show up. I also don't like the idea of calling all food a person deems, by her own rational and considered examination of the topic, as problematic as "pig slop." To me, to imply that stuff other people eat is "pig slop," even though you aren't telling them that outright, is grating. But these metaphors seem very valuable to the participants, so I'm learning to ride the wave for now. (And I really am on board for myself about the wisdom of steering clear of most ultraprocessed food and am much less lenient about sweets these days. Just too much history of a lack of ease with them, no matter how hard I tried to be content with small amounts. Down to about 10 grams max of sugar these days, not counting ketchup or some sauces, neither of which I have that much of. COVID helps because I go to NO environments with them, but I don't long for them, either. And I used to think I could never say no to desserts. It's ironic because I still remember them with such fondness but I'm not dreaming of a day when I'll have any.) Okay, I've really sold you on this, haven't I? Nothing like leading with the worst offenders.

But what I do think has really interesting merit is his premise that much overeating is simply being driven by real survival biases of the reptilian brain led astray by modern foods and the cultural environment of permasnacking/overeating + habit wires getting tripped. He
s not alone in that, but making it into an entity like the Pig is new-ish. Trimpey called it the Feast Beast. In my mind, it dovetails with how I used principles of OCD therapy in implementing No S: It feels like I just HAVE to eat X, when I really don't. Nothing bad will happen if I wait as long as I am eating reasonable amounts of food overall. The other thing I find very intriguing and productive is that he says that the reptile brain can co-opt other parts of the brain to produce the thoughts to defend overeating. I've been saying something like that for years. Then he uses rational thinking strategies to counteract the justifications. This is much like Judith Beck's stuff, which I used extensively to stick to No S, except that he always has the Pig (I would just call it Mistaken Survival Drive) doing the desiring and justifying and You (the real you in your PFC) doing the refuting. So you learn to start separating Yourself from the survival drive urges. It's also akin to the work of Jack Trimpey, whom he gives credit to, and Kathryn Hansen, who got her idea of just simply ignore the urges as brain nonsense from Trimpey. Anyway, I haven't actually started the coaching training; I let myself get waylaid by the "total permission/ anti-restriction of any kind" crowd for a bit and am still experimenting with it.

I also like that the book didn't seem to focus much on weight loss, though some people do talk about it on support calls, and the founder wants to help them get to it after they feel the bingeing is under control. I've known for years that people don't necessarily lose weight just because they stop bingeing, though most bingers don't want to hear that. Getting the compulsive behavior and attachment to compulsive foods under control, so to speak, is the focus. It does tend to attract people who are pretty radical in their approaches, which triggers me sometimes, but we live in a society where it's unlikely anybody is going to match my preferences perfectly, so I better get used to it. But having lost so much of my weight without being whole food plant based, Paleo, keto, raw, carnivore, yada yada yada, I find myself wanting to tell people to exhaust variety before going commando. But that is not considered the role of the coach there UNLESS specifically asked for.

I'll just say briefly that in terms of frequency of eating I am the least disciplined I've been in years. I realized that I still lived in fear that I was just a few bites away from egregious relapse even though I've stayed within my normal BMI range for about seven years. For pity's sake! I see it as meaning that there is a bit of a pathology in my concern over it, though I haven't figured out the particulars or remedy yet. But I'm fluctuating only a few pounds and that is acceptable to me. The content of my eating would sound radical to a lot of people; I give myself the option sometimes of straying, but I usually just think, nah, not today. Not having a social life really helps.

[Octavia]

Hi Oolala, great to hear your thoughts on Livingston, and I want to reply in more depth when I get more time. Just to say, I found his work really interesting and valuable; I quickly adapted to the at-first-shocking use of the ‘pig’ metaphor, and ended up finding it quite hilarious and apt, as it clearly wasn’t a metaphor for the person themselves but their destructive urges. I found two main difficulties with his work:
1. The skill needed to detach one part of my brain from another. It felt like doing my own brain surgery using the power of the imagination. His books helped massively, but I still found it hard to separate my own voice from ‘pig squeal’.
2. The fact that you were encouraged to set your own eating rules. I was forever indecisive, no doubt confused and confounded by my inner pig.

And yet, those two difficulties must be surmounted. I must return to his work, especially now I’m back doing No S - Dr Glen might give me extra armoury.

Great to discuss these things with you! Hope you have a good week.

[oolala53]

Well, my rebellion lasted longer than I expected and finally bumped my weight up consistently. Dang. I'm only about 4 lbs. up, but am shocked at how much it affects the way some pants fit. At age 67, I don't think the weight is just going to drop back down easily because I was not going to town on a ton of stuff that I am now getting rid of- I'd say all of the overages were on unshelled peanuts and peanut butter-, and I'm just not sure I even want to be terribly rigorous, though I am finding it makes sense under today's conditions to pretty much eat "ideally" at home. I have a few refined foods around and I do on most days give myself the option of having a serving or two, but when push comes to shove and I see all the other stuff I have available to me- I make it pretty easy- I just usually say, nah, maybe tomorrow. It makes those days feel almost wild! I had one little roll made with pizza dough and about a teaspoon of unsalted butter on it with a high-fiber dinner and I couldn't get over how just those few bites felt so intense.

If there is anyone who reads my stuff these days, are you as sick of hearing about my "problem" as I am of having it and writing about it? I want there to be a match between my hunger and my desire for food! I just can't seem to wait long enough to get legitimately hungry for food. I even skipped breakfast this morning because I had to take my car in for a smog certification so all I had in the morning was coffee with about 20 calories of creamer. I finally got tired of waiting and had lunch-my first meal- around noon, though not one bit hungry but boy, did I want to eat. I had a small snack and another coffee around three, though not hungry, and wanted to eat more. I had the snack because I am aiming to eat a certain number of servings of different food groups (for health) and didn't want to try to pack them all in the next meal. Then dinner around 6, still not hungry but really wanting to eat. I actually wanted to eat around 5, though I wasn't hungry, and forced myself to go for a walk first. It all came to under 1400 because of keeping protein low, and fat moderate. If only I didn't want to eat when I wasn't hungry! I miss my first years on No S when I was actually eating more but getting hungry for every meal. I just don't know a way around this, though I still have never been consistent with resistance exercise. Maybe a little muscle would help? But I've read that tactic is way over-rated. I was consistent with walking this last spring and summer and that didn't help, either, in terms of hunger and desire matching. Though I think that's also why the weight came back. Fires in SoCal that damaged air quality and darker, cooler mornings were enough to knock me off my routine. I was getting my exercise in before it got hot in the day; at least now, even though it's kind of cold for my taste in the morning, most days are delightful for walking just about any time of day, so there should be no excuse, but I still have days where I keep putting it off until the end of the day comes and I quit kidding myself. Oh, well.

More later.

[pinkhippie]

Hi oolala!

I'm sorry you are struggling with feeling hungry. I hate eating when I am not hungry. It always feels harder to know when to stop. I am sure you have tried it with your walking, but exercise always makes me more hungry. I notice on the mornings I ride my bike, I actually am hungry for lunch versus the days that I just eat lunch because it's time to. I feel like being stuck at home all day changes hunger patterns too. Maybe because we are burning fewer calories? At least in my case.

[automatedeating]

I've also had trouble with not being on my routine and my usual time of daily walks. It's frustrating to feel that I know what I want to do, and what I should be doing, but I can't seem to find the motivation. Very blah feeling.

[oolala53]

Missed saying thanks, pinkhippie. I walked a fair amount all spring and most of the summer, but it never affected my hunger. If only.

I did a little 3-day thing to try to affect digestion. I didn’t expect it to help with reflux but it did. Lost some water weight that is back, which is what I expected. But the appetite issue
remains the same.

I know I’ve lost a fair amount of muscle along with fat over the years and wonder if that affects my lack of appetite. But even that wouldn’t explain why I still want to eat even when I’m not hungry. However, I cannot help but think building muscle and strength would be a good idea in my old age; they aren’t going to build themselves! I wasn’t looking for an exercise system but somehow I stumbled on this turbocharged elastic band system- very sophisticated. The inventor actually started by designing a very complicated machine to help his mother rebuild bone when she was heading towards osteoporosis or actually already in it. He claims it was very effective. They have one at some clinic about 15 miles north of me. The company that makes it claims on their site that you can get a demo free; I am going to check it out. His exercise system has a few thousand people in the group on Facebook. That seems like a respectable number. But it’s pretty expensive. He claims that it will build muscle three times faster than using free weights. Given how hard it is for women in general to add muscle, it could be a real advantage to use something so efficient. However, I know from experience that just buying some thing doesn’t mean that I’m going to use it, so I’ve made a deal with myself that I can put an IOU to me in a jar towards buying it for every day I do a resistance work out and aim at at least a few super slow reps and close to failure. If I am not willing to do that, it’s unlikely this system will do me much good. The workouts are short but they have to be intense to work. I can at least consider buying the system when I get to 90 days. The guy who designed it is also into being a total carnivore. I hope the system doesn’t depend on that because that is not going to happen. I haven’t actually eaten very much meat this year, but this problem with my appetite has been going on since 2016, and I was just eating my normal meals that I have been eating for six years on no S. But I might go back to including some.

[Soprano]

Oolala have you tried yoga I've been using a dvd with 2 x 30 min programs for 2 or 3 years now and it has really toned my muscles, I can feel a difference in them and my flexibility is so much better than in the beginning.


Jx

[oolala53]

Thanks, Soprano. I don't doubt that I can make some progress with other exercise systems. Especially if I actually do them! Just saying I have a lot of catching up to do with a body less likely to gain muscle, while it can gain a lot more strength, which is also a plus. But I don't know if any of this, mild or intense, will affect the hunger issue. That might just be my cross to bear, and a pretty light one, given what this 67-year-old body COULD be suffering.

[automatedeating]

I am a fan of any exercise you can stick with! For me it always comes back to walks/hikes, and bodyweight stuff. I know the system you are talking about - the band guy - I was looking at that and seriously considered forking over the (significant) $$. But I talked myself out of it.

[pinkhippie]

I agree, any exercise you can stick with is good exercise. The only motivation that works for me with weights is osteoporosis and the worry of losing bone mass.

[oolala53]

Thanks, ladies! After all my talk I have done almost no regular exercise since that post, least of all muscle-building exercise! I haven't sat down wot write my why I want to and what I want to avoid lists narratives.

I'm bummed that I am as bothered as I am by having gained about four pounds when I went through a couple of months of rebellion after looking at body positivity sites and going through an overcoming overeating program based on not restricting. The only food that really did it was peanuts and peanut butter. I got tired of the whole thing and quit replacing peanut anything when I ran out. Life is more peaceful- I hadn't actually even thought about peanuts until I told someone else about the experiment yesterday-, though not totally peaceful. I'm still having my hunger issues, as in I rarely feel it unless I go loooooong hours without eating or eat very little more often. VERRY little. I think the old age factor has definitely kicked in as this weight is not budging even though I think I am eating less than before the rebellion. But I would LIKE to eat more. sigh

And I have found myself consulting healthy diet books, which of course offer wildly contradicting advice. But a core of many is the dangers of most vegetable oils-not necessarily the fat from veggie foods like avocado or nuts- and refined sugar, no surprise. I have very little of either of those, so am giving myself tons of credit for that while I consider other changes to the periphery. But my general plan is to wean myself off reading nutrition stuff by the start of spring. I find myself considering some pretty complicated routines with my plates of food and I almost can't believe it. Me? thinking of doing one thing a few days a week and something really different the others? But I am giving myself the same deadline to get a routine figured out. By then, I'll either have found something that seems maintainable or I will just have to truly give up trying to find the magic formula and do my best.

[automatedeating]

Here's to weaning yourself off nutrition books!

I think at this point you know what works for you, Oolala - you don't need a book. Experimentation is always the best way forward, combined with eating foods that we like and enjoy eating. And, like you said, you already avoid processed foods, and I agree whole-heartedly with you that avoiding such foods is the #1 best thing you can do for your nutritional health. Indeed, I think that's why we see such widely different nutritional recommendations - the data gets confounded by the presence/absence of processed foods within the analysis and can make certain nutrients look like good guys or bad guys when ultimately it's the ultra-processing of the food that's the bad guy and wreaks havoc with our metabolisms and our hypothalamic drives to eat.

Oh, and funny about the peanut butter. I love it too. It hits all the hyperpalatability points, that's for sure.

[oolala53]

Thanks, Auto. I can't say I've sworn off completely but been spending a lot less time with those books. I'm usually glad for what I've learned and incorporated. I actually would not have added a lot of stuff into my diet just by my own experimentation. But I also have to admit that I am SOMETIMES still torn by the conflicting advice out there. I thought I had made some final decisions but I keep seeing contrary evidence, and I actually still miss some foods even though I've gone long past the time they should still be calling to me. Not talking about ultraprocessed stuff. I don't actually long for it, but truth be told, I do sometimes still miss the heady experience of eating too much food at a restaurant before it got so that I felt so gorged and uncomfortable on eating a plate out. I wish I wouldn't get so full! I'm sorry, it's just not the same to have to be satisfied with 10-15 bites rather than more.

I haven't been vanilla for a long time but I have a working if loose system right now. A discrete breakfast, big mug of coffee I sip on over time, some nibbling on veggies or fruit through midday, though often including a meal of freggies, hot or cold, with a little dressing and up to about an ounce of nuts. No other dense food until dinner time. I aim to have discrete dinner, but fail in the evening a fair amount, though not by a lot. Sometimes it's out of fear because I have a pretty good idea how many calories I'd be eating without the extras and it scares me a bit how low my calories can be if I try to pack everything in at breakfast and dinner. I don't want to add much to lunch because if I do, I will be SO unhungry at dinner that eating the meal just feels like a drug addiction. I'm pretty sure if I went just by my appetite, I would be eating under 1,000 calories a day. And I cannot believe that is a good amount for me, even if it were all ideal nutrition.

I am letting myself read books about body image and such. The one I"m looking at now is called Beauty Sick by Renee Engeln, Ph.D. I am about a third of the way through. She has not so far dwelt much on recommending completely unrestrained eating and I"m glad of it because I have lost faith in that. She even cites a statistic that 24% of thin people have significant health problems. I"m not saying that all of their problems are brought on by their eating, but even though they might be eating more freggies than some, I also know plenty of thin people eat diets that don't feed their gut biome well or promote a long health span. I suspect if they look at the data a lot more of the problems occur in older thin people. So it just takes longer for the mistakes to show up.

But anyway, Beauty Sick is forcing me to see that even with my weight loss success and absence of counting calories and such traditional weight loss techniques, I still have this sense that I have to monitor myself, as if I am still in danger of relapsing big time and being a slave to food. I act as if I have to be a slave to NOT eating. But it isn't true. I have to face that it's almost a ritual of safety to fill a fair amount of time warding off some evil by being concerned with eating right. And it's related to wanting to be ideal about it, by being vegan or keto or something that has parameters that are clear enough that I would know when I was "sinning" and could feel good only when I was sinless. As if eating perfectly and being able to get to the low media weight so admired was equivalent to not robbing banks or inflicting physical violence. Or as if it would be some kind of penance for my other short comings. That kind of thinness is such a red herring! Because it is not going to help me have a better relationship with my family or make people like me better or make me like them better, which is as much of a problem as any. It could also be penance for not having the discipline and desire enough to really work on dance or acting or singing or emotional release techniques or my spiritual practices.

But I really have to take myself off the hook for all of them.

I have shied away from pursuing the binge eating coaching gung ho because the program seems to attract people who want to be so "good" in their eating. Theoretically, it is supposed to help people simply stick to the plan of their choice but since it was so important in my experience to take it slow, I have a hard time feeling really enthusiastic about teaching people thinking strategies to stick to Idealistic plans, especially ones that my reading has me suspecting they could be damaging their health. But I am not an expert on any of that. Plus, I feel like I want to be able to incorporate the anti-body shame stuff. Can I really bridge both concerns? Though the promoter of the program is a psychologist, and pretty savvy about a lot, I honestly think that most men cannot really grok the depth of dysfunction in women's attitudes towards themselves over the appearance of their bodies. The research shows over and over that women suffer inordinately more over their fear over their appearance than men do. NO woman, no matter how competent, is not subject to scrutiny of her appearance just be the very fact of being looked at.

I've been aware and concerned with this every since my twenties and several influences back then. That's why it was disturbing to me to see a movie a few weeks ago, independent of course, which had a female star, older and, terrible though it sounds, not close to attractive by Hollywood standards . Appallingly, I found myself not wanting to watch her and down deep feeling a sense of resentment that she got to star in a movie. (But the movie itself wasn't that good. That may have affected things.)

I won't go into it now but I've been thinking about the actually irrational fact that one of the worst things you can say about a woman is that she is ugly. It implies so many things. It is practically like saying she does not deserve to have any human kindness or acceptance. And when you think about it, it's just absurd. Why can we not tell the truth and admit that many humans do not fit the criteria for being beautiful? Why do we have to cling to thinking of ourselves as beautiful? It's so tied up to the evolutionary drive to procreate, to be chosen to be a mate and to then deserve the affection of other humans. But the conditioning is so strong, we can hardly question it. But it's also been perverted by the camera and the ability of media to choose only a very narrow selection of females to populate the mind. I'm not saying something similar doesn't happen to men on other fronts. I just know a lot more about this one.

[automatedeating]

I also know plenty of thin people eat diets that don't feed their gut biome well or promote a long health span.

100% agree. And the foods that we eat don't make everyone fat. Our genes dictate the troubles the foods cause - whether something like embarrassing flatulence, IBS, ulcerative colitis, rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, skin problems, general fatigue, headaches, PCOS, anxiety, depression, sinus problems, arthritis/joint pain, lupus, psoriasis, asthma ..... LOL. Right? Obesity and the diabetes and heart disease that often accompany it are more obviously linked to diet, but I personally believe each and every one of the problems I listed above can be fixed or lessened with better food choices. Of course, each individual is not only unique in the types of health problems that their diets can cause, but the specific foods that may trigger those problems!

Oh, one other thing I was contemplating as I read your post - why CAN'T you occasionally eat out at a restaurant and gorge yourself? Seems to me we are designed for times like that, on special occasions anyway.

[oolala53]

A very legit question, auto, about gorging at a restaurant once in awhile. The main reason is the recovery process. I tend to affected for the whole next day and sometimes beyond- bloating, food thoughts, etc. I have been making some compulsion for whole foods- mostly fruit, and I'm talking quite a bit in a day- okay for now. I am counting soft dried apricots as whole foods. I'm trying to take all the value judgment
off my eating without ending up just doing a lot of eating because I "can." (But know that I am eating almost no packaged food or sugar these days. I just stopped buying any last March and it's really not an issue now. Once in awhile, I'll toy with the idea of including some but I really can't come up with a good reason to because I had gotten to the point at which there was so little true pleasure or satisfaction in eating a reasonable portion of them.)

I can't believe how long it is taking me to truly adjust to my natural hunger, or lack of it. I swear, I think I would have to limit myself to just one meal a day if I wanted to be truly hungry for it, and I'm not convinced that would be a good at my age and weight, nor even that that would do it. I don't even want to try it out because I'm afraid it would set a pendulum in motion. I'm resisting for now doing any calorie tracking, but honestly, I may do it at some point just to see. I eat what I'd say are very modest breakfasts (not hungry for them but so so want the eat, especially in winter) and have been trying lighter and lighter lunches (like almost no starch or protein) to see if I could get hungry for dinner. I'd bet I have some 1,000 days and still, nope so far, no real wonderfully raging hunger. I am almost NEVER actually hungry. Man, do I miss it. And I still WANT to eat. Some might say that's a pathology but from what I read, older people have to be careful not to eat too little and promote muscle wasting. Now, if I say that, it also means I have to be willing to make a fair amount of what I eat high nutrient because older people need more than calories. And high protein has its drawbacks. Oy. I have gotten a bit weary of it all and accept that I might have less disease-free time than I might if it were all easier. But I am not willing to eat just a smaller amount of SAD, which would be easy because so much of it is easy to buy. I haven't eaten that way for years because I don't find those foods very satisfying.

I'm staying decently occupied with some acting stuff. I'm also trying not to judge the productivity of my days but have to admit I wish I could be more purposeful another two or three hours a day. But this has to be okay for now because I just can't see me forcing the situation with any success, so just like not starting an unearthly diet, I will not pretend I can suddenly spend multiple hours a day developing talents that while fun also take focus and some discomfort.

Did I already say (too lazy to go look back) that I actually auditioned and got cast in a staging of Romeo and Juliet that will take place the last weekend in May in Reading, England? I get my second COVID shot the first week of March. I have to pay for everything myself, including ten days of quarantine, but I figure this is like paying for drama school. I had thought I would follow it with going to Italy, but if I have to shut myself up there, too, it seems like too much of a waste of money. Too bad because I have been to England before and Italy is on my bucket list. It's got to be cheaper to fly from London, but who knows, with all one-way tickets? Anyway, it's kind of fun to be researching where to stay. If I pay for a C19 test after 5 days quarantine and it's negative, I could move around. I'll already have the hotel room so I would probably just try day trips.

[pinkhippie]

I honestly think that most men cannot really grok the depth of dysfunction in women's attitudes towards themselves over the appearance of their bodies. The research shows over and over that women suffer inordinately more over their fear over their appearance than men do.

I totally agree with this! No man I have ever known, even my wonderfully empathetic husband ever seems to REALLY get it. They just don't understand why it's a big deal and it's a bit maddening.

Congratulations on your role in Romeo and Juliet! Wow! That is awesome! It sounds so fun to travel to another country right now too and be able to do it.

[automatedeating]

Amazing and congrats on the role in Romeo and Juliet and getting to go to ENGLAND!! What part are you playing?

[Soprano]

Congratulations on the role, hope you enjoy the trip, when are you coming over?

Jx

[oolala53]

I will be playing the (impossibly old) nurse. As of now, I would arrive on May 18. Had a long talk today with a young actress in one of my groups who had been studying there and went through the process last year. She recommended I stay in London near the airport because apparently I have to go back there for my testing. But things could change in couple of months. I would think it would not be smart to have international people going back and forth to a hub like an airport to possibly pick up or put down infection! Maybe by then, a local hospital or something would be acceptable? We'll see. Apparently nowadays, there is no penalty for canceling tickets or most hotel rooms so I will be making a choice soon and adjust as appropriate. I had thought I would hole up in Reading near where the performance will be but London will be better WHEN I get a negative test after five days and can roam around. But as of now, to be safe for the play, I have to go ten days early. Even though the odds that I will be a danger in those first five days is extremely low, but I accept the restriction because it would be so complicated to figure out who might be safe, and I am jaded enough to think people would be getting fake proof and other shenanigans. I know people will ask, what does the govt do to check up? I think who the hell cares what the govt. does, the point is what does the VIRUS do? You can't thwart it by sneaking out of your hotel. I may be a chump when others with no vaccine don't follow the rules, but it's the "principality" of the thing. International travel has been INTEGRAL in spreading this illness. I'll sacrifice some freedom to make it easier for another few months.

Pinkhippie, I hope it's okay that I say that I think the women's stuff is both real AND invented, meaning we may conditioned to think it is a big deal but it is actually NOT; it's an inside job to learn to sidestep it. Unfortunately, women reinforce it in each other all the time. I have called it a false idol, and mean until the bitter to end to fight my conditioning on it and support other women to do the same. But there are other reasons IMHO to systematically increase the quality of my eating pattern and contents of my plates, and move more often and vigorously. It is convenient in some ways that that has brought me closer to the societal image standard but can also keep me fearful of losing that approval. Thoughts like that pop up for me, but I usually employ some kind of CBT and distraction to rewire the brain just as I did with my eating, but man, that conditioning is strong because it is so much a part of that mammalian, must-fit-into-the tribe-or-die wiring. But my life has not improved in any discernible way socially from being slimmer. I actually envy heavier women who are at peace with it. I would take a higher weight and peace any day, but only if I didn't have to eat junk to get there. I have no desire to get on that hamster wheel again. Moderation for me no longer means I include everything, only the things that still bring me pleasure before, during, and after eating them and a lot of the old foods just aren't worth the thrill followed by vague dissatisfaction.

I had signed up to become an eating coach but have been dawdling because the program I feel doesn't address that shame issue for women, though they are very much more concerned with helping people stop the compulsive egregious overages and don't promise quick weight loss. However, they also tend to attract people who want to follow plans that I consider to be too strict too fast. Most end up crashing and burning and then feeling so bad when I'm just thinking, I could see that coming a mile away, and it's not proof you aren't going to get there. Unfortunately nearly all the programs that work with the body issues recommend no restriction and I was never willing to go through that process well enough to get to freedom, so I can't help people that way.

Okay, this has taken up quite enough mental real estate tonight!

[Zoid]

Congrats! The nurse is such a great role! She’s so funny.

I agree with you about COVID guidelines. Just because you might be able to get away with something doesn’t mean you should. Personal integrity is important.

[pinkhippie]

Yes I know what you mean about women's stuff being both real and invented. We do it to ourselves, but society really supports it. I think it takes a lot of personal strength to reject it and be comfortable with who we are and our appearance. At least right now. I have hope for future generations.

[ladybird30]

Congrats on the acting part, so exciting for you.

[oolala53]

Thx, Ladybird and Zoid!

Pinkhippie, unfortunately, from reading the book Beauty Sickness, the prognosis for girls and young women is not good. The author is talking at the end about some things to do and reports SOME hope, but looking at the rest of it, hoo boy. I've also discovered that for all my fighting it, I show signs of it in some areas. It happens so fast and so unconsciously! The author reported studies where they could track where women's eyes went when looking at pictures of women's bodies and the women weren't necessarily aware of it. I feel almost like I'd have to wear blinders or always look down or something or look only at men when I'm out.

Here's an interesting finding: telling a woman she is beautiful does NOTHING to increase her body positivity. It usually makes things worse, as it invites knee-jerk self body evaluations that usually compare her body to the super selected media images. On another page, she said early humans, when our reactive systems were formed, would not have seen as much beauty (symmetrical features, clear skin, shiny hair) in their entire lifetimes as we see in a single day of media exposure. We really aren't meant to be stimulated like that so much. I suspect it triggers innate desires to be approved of by the tribe as well as split second evaluations in which it's almost impossible not to come up short, so we keep having to field these messages that ignite our fears of being cast out.

She said one of the main ways to combat it in young women especially is to refrain from any comments about appearance (self or others) and emphasize body functionality and other qualities of character. Boy, I've been trying that for years in on the diet sites and in real life, but I'm suspecting now that being around the other people's emphasis so much may be an issue. I'm going to have to be a little more cognizant of what I see because I think some stuff pops up that I do sometimes click on- before and afters. It's like junk food for the body image mind.

[pinkhippie]

Interesting and depressing oolala. I have 3 daughters so I try very hard to not comment on their appearance and to focus on their qualities to praise rather than how they look. And we talk about feeling healthy and good. It is tough. I feel like I have gotten a lot better and more accepting of my own body at age almost 45, but I know the younger generation has a lot of hard work to do ahead of them. I have hope with the more inclusion of plus-size models and "real" looking women in the media these days. Thanks for sharing the insights from the book.

[oolala53]

Big hugs to you and your daughters, pinkhippie. The only ameliorating thought I have on it is that our narrative-self brain structure (the part that tortures us) is pretty good at finding other problems, meaning getting rid of this one might just lead to something else becoming the juggernaut. But maybe it would turn to one that has more true reward.

I went for my annual -except this time it was two years- bodyfat test and threw a little more money at tests and got a VO2 and resting metabolism tests, too. My bodyfat has risen though I did add slightly more muscle, too. No mystery- I do not exercise consistently, esp. not resistance moves. Amazingly, I made it into the "excellent" category for fitness for my age. I found out something I suspected: I need to eat about 10% fewer calories than my same age/same weight peers, most of whom I would assume have not taken off 45 lbs., to maintain the same weight. And it's a lot less than a lot of people would like to think they can eat, but I am hardly starving. I am 5' 5" at around 30% bodyfat. Doesn't that sound high? But I still look okay in my clothes, for whatever that's worth. I have to average a little under 1500 calories daily to stay there. My hunger has changed enough that that isn't that hard, as long as I don't push it. Yeah, it's possible that I could change that with doing something that I consider drastic and possibly detrimental to long health span, although the proponents would say thinner is better at any cost, but I can't see what it would be right now. It's just too tricky and I like too many of my staples that wouldn't fit the program.

Regarding calories, last year for the first three months, I did track calories for a few months to watch macros, and I was averageing about 1500 cal a day. I had gained a few pounds over the previous six months when i had been wobbling. I went down to about 4 bls below where I am now. Then rebelled last summer and came up to where I am. I am actually eating about 50 cal. LESS per day and I weigh more. So. Moral of the story is be very careful about decreasing weight and then gaining some. I didn't even lose the weight on purpose, but the effect is there.

Honestly, after being involved on other sites plus this since 2007, I have to say I have never seen anyone who has been pretty heavy get really slim without doing something darn radical. All things being equal, the body defends its fat! I am being rather radical in our culture now, almost never eating packaged snack foods, not having sweets except my bit of dark chocolate, comparatively limited packaged foods at all, but that hasn't been for weight loss. I overdid low nutrient foods for decades; I believe I'm better off swinging the other way now.

So, I'm continuing on, and mentally gearing up once more for contracting some muscles against resistance regularly. And back to walking more.

[oolala53]

Just tried adding a photo. It said my file was too large. I don’t think I got offered a chance to shrink it. This was on my phone. I tried it on my laptop and the damn thing would not allow me to access my photos. I’d forgotten that. And I probably have to go into the shop where I bought it and ask them to help me with that.

[ladybird30]

Congratulations on your long term changes Oolala.

[Over43]

I agree with you regarding the phenomena that people seem to stay about the same. Weight loss occurs when they do something drastic. Me for example, I lost sixty lbs. when I was 36/37 eating no carbohydrates. Ten years ago I lost 25 on No S, in two months. I also Airdyned 4 days a week at a pretty good clip. Twice I last 10/11 lbs. on the No S 21 Day challenge. I do not consider my No S weight loss drastic, but no known carbs for six months?

Keep up your good work!

[Soprano]

Did you make it over to the UK?

Jx

[oolala53]

Wow I haven't checked in for awhile! And I had all that time quarantining in London. I was a lot less productive than I had planned on being.

Here is a link to the recording of our little production of Romeo and Juliet. If you're inclined, you can fast forward to the Nurse scenes. I'm wearing a red and grey outfit. I haven't watched myself, but some people have been complimentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1jP2JkuQEs

London is a world class city, no surprise. I had no idea how beautiful Bath is, though my friend and I waited too long to look for tickets to the baths and museum. Sold out for days However we got the last two tickets to see RALPH FIENNES on stage, less than a hundred feet away, performing Four Quartets, which went WAY over my head, even this Shakespeare head. but it was still an experience to see him and to be part of indoor theater starting up in England.

And it seems my laptop reverted to British spelling as I keep getting suggestions to change the spelling of words like theater and realize. I don't know how to switch it back.

I didn't keep exactly to the meal structure, but kept rather close to my regular eating routine in terms of a fair amount of fiber and not much animal food or ultraprocessed stuff.

Ok, I spent more money on some testing. Please Lord I hope it's the last set because I just keep finding out that I'm doing fine. However, because of this continuing issue of so often wanting to eat when I'm not hungry, I was wishing this testing might give a clue. The only thing I can think of from it is that for some reason, I have fewer good gut bugs than I used to, and maybe they were using up calories. I apparently have few of the bad bugs. Or it just occurred to me, maybe they were the ones giving me true hunger. I miss it! I'm still glad I had it done as it gave me some ideas for how to fine tune though it will make life even a little more inconvenient for eating out. I guess the best bet is just to be as ideal as possible at home and save the low scoring foods for social events.

I used a program called ZOE. One of the founders has a definite bias for plant eating, but I think/hope it's because of the data, not him having a bias and then finding the data. (I actually suspect that happens a lot, even for yours truly. Confirmation bias.) This worked in my favor as I've cut waaaay back on animal foods over the past few years. I was already eating meals that scored higher (that's good) than their beginning recommendations. I might even gain if I went back to those meals, but that is not my purpose anyway. I found out that age has indeed taken its toll on my glucose and ability of my body to clear fats. I thus have real numbers to reinforce making the best choices for smoothing out the highs and lows. Most of it is not new; tons of veggies, but I found that besides rice, dried corn food is also a stressor for my system. That one I was a bit bummed about because I like the variety of sometimes using tortillas or corn meal mush, which I found amazingly satisfying. I can still have it sometimes, but like I said for now, I'll save it for eating out. I also found out that pearled barley is one of my higher good grains, even better than oat groats, which I'm surprised at, but I don't run a lab, do I? So I'm putting barley, bulgur and spinach spaghetti noodles into the starch rotation. Rye berries will stay as a staple. Yams are good but sweet potatoes not so much. And my beloved golden and purple potatoes are now on the social events list, too. I already ate a fair amount of winter squashes, but I will have to keep more of them on hand. (This is what I sometimes resent. But I'm too cheap to pay for the cut up squashes, and they often don't sell prepped version of my favorites, acorn and especially kabocha.

Thank goodness I took a macrobiotic cooking class decades ago. I didn't follow that very well, but I did incorporate greens, grains, and squashes that have apparently served me well.

I will probably work in a few of the higher-performing dairy products just for variety and now will include more tempeh, natto, lentils, kimchi, and tahini, also for variety and for good bug development.

But really when I think of eating out, it's practically a food desert for my colon. Nearly everything is on the gut suppression list. Sorry, but I think even moderation is too much of that stuff at my age, though moderation is subjective. I won't say never, that's for sure, unless I get diagnosed with something serious.

I am letting go for most days of soft dried apricots and figs. I should have known but I was hoping....

It's cherry season and I am basically bingeing on them. And I don't care. They are in a very good category for me, and the season is finite.

[Soprano]

I am glad you enjoyed London and Bath. Bath is beautiful but I find London too busy, though there are some wonderful parks and architecture.

I have been following Tim Spector for some time, read his 2 books. I do believe our gut biome has a huge impact on our health. I was wondering about having one of the tests done. He does seem a little anti meat which I eat a lot of.

Going to look at the video now

Jx

[oolala53]

I really hope Spector is just following the data. He may be suffering from confirmation bias.

Now to confuse things, on a FB support site for Zoe, someone made reference to a program called Data Driven Fasting, where for 30 days at a time, people let their blood sugar readings dictate when they eat. The purveyor doesn't advocate using it for more than a month at time because he admits it can make you resentful and obsessed, even if you are losing weight (which people are so often surprised is not reward enough for oppressive routines.) He recommends WAY more protein than the longevity researcher Longo does. I found myself intrigued to see where I would have to get to in my blood sugar readings to eat (he has some process for determining baseline over three days) and if that indeed correlated to feelings of real hunger. The monitor I wore gave a graph, but no exact numbers which was a disappointment. I have a feeling it wouldn't. I can sometimes feel a little shaky but still not hungry. But I think the info and all the directions for 30 Days DDF are free. That's an argument for it; I love free, but the monitor wouldn't be. I haven't looked closely enough to see if it requires pricking yourself a few times a day every day, but it seems so. The program is often used, it seems, by diabetics or pre-diabetics who have an incentive to withstand multiple stabs. Honestly, if it got me the kind of feedback I'm looking for, it would be worth it. But I have to say I didn't notice that during my wearing. It just might give me the oomph to try using that to time my meals. Ive been all over the place for awhile, but in terms of weight, and even semi-sanity, it's actually working. The years of moderation have made their impression, even if it takes more juggling. But the concept of having nice, full hunger is a powerful enticement for me. But it just might turn out that it's plain old jonesing and boredom and I would just have to get better at not relieving the discomfort with food, even meals, but face the lack of satisfaction in my days. That just feels so daunting when there is nothing really obligatory I have to. Must sound wonderful to some, but Flow author Csikszentmihalyi )sp?) says many people have a hard time with finding satisfication in unfettered time. I already spend too much time playing a game app and surfing around the net (or looking at satiety issues), but I also can't see myself suddenly becoming being productive hour after hour. It's not that I have a lack of things to do, just a lack of things I really want to do that smack of just another dopamine addiction for little effort or skill.

Oh, maybe it IS because I have opted for the high starch way of life, as some imply, I do get the minimum of protein for my weight, but only a little more because of my age and get most of my density from starch. Could that minimum mean that it leaves me hankering? But I can't see myself adding much animal sources back in. If low protein is the culprit, I would look for another solution, or just suck it up.

[oolala53]

Oops, I spoke too soon. Consulted another Data Driven Fsting page and there is an app that costs, though it sounds like you could use your own tracking.

[ladybird30]

Lots of free info about DDF on the Optomising Nutrition website, nothing that any motivated person can't do with a blood glucose monitor, a pen and paper and some time. Yes I believe that finger pricks are involved. I've thought of doing it myself if I don't manage to reign in my eating enough to lose a bit more weight, but I am not there yet. Don't have the motivation of high blood sugar as my last fasting blood sugar test was a few months ago was fine, in spite of the waist excess.

I read what he says with interest about satiety and protein and other nutrients, but my own belief is that as long as one sticks mainly to a wide variety of unprocessed and traditional foods, appetite and personal preferences are as good a guide as any. Perhaps I'm wrong. I eat plenty of meat, but I also have had two meals of beans and tofu today because I didn't feel like cooking and that was what was in the frig.

I think that DDF may help some people sort out the difference between true hunger, as in need for fuel, and the other sort.

By the way, playing the Nurse in Romeo and Juliet sounds awesome.

[oolala53]

Thanks re the Nurse, ladybird.

I'm attracted to the idea that some kind of innate sensing can lead us to an optimum diet, but I'm not sure. I have a shard of doubt from neuroscientist Stephan Gould who wrote somewhere in his book The Hungry Brain or site that the brain, which pretty much directs everything about appetite and fatness, though it gets signals from other body parts, is not designed to be sensitive to the need for specific vitamins and minerals. It goes for the bigger picture, which is caloric density and using the least amount of effort to get it. He claims most hunter-gatherers don't spend a lot of time, for example, gathering greens because their caloric content doesn't pay back the calorie expenditure, even though they are some of the densest nutrient-laden food available. I don't know who's right but I know how my inner doubter can throw monkey wrenches in my aspirations. And even though I had been eating a variety of foods in decent amounts, I wasn't getting near enough vitamin D and had no consciousness of that until an assessment of it came up by my health plan because I had developed osteopenia. I was a little miffed that it wasn't ordered two springs ago when I broke a metatarsal in a fall. I told the doctor that it had seemed to snap rather easily and did not hurt near as much as I expected. I think it was already present then. It was too late for them to find out before that, but shouldn't that have been a signal? It was only this year that I got the D prescription. Oh, well. I seem to have healed from it and the 12-week regime of a superdose of Vitamin D did raise my level. But it's too late to go backwards, I think. Or without a Herculean effort. Never been my strong point, though some might think I'm am doing that now, but the changes have been gradual.

Still bingeing on cherries. It's the season and they are cheap! I don't worry about it because I am too thrifty to continue the practice once the price goes back up. I like feeling there is something I let myself go to town on. I've been eliminating the other foods as I evaluate their nutritional contribution.

I'm avoiding doing my meditation "homework." Ok, off to do it.

[ladybird30]

Bad luck about the osteopenia. I agree with your reservations about innate sensing and an optimum diet. I'd like to say that I was against any sort of diet dogmatism or one diet fits all, but the truth is that nowadays I take a great deal of care to stick to unprocessed and unrefined foods with a few exceptions such as olive oil, tofu, canned fish.

The wide variety helps take care of nutritional deficiencies, but it isn't 100% effective.

As far as green veg and hunter gatherers goes, the ones that I am most familiar with from my reading are the Australian aborigines - some of the desert people ate greens when other foods were less available, others have been reported eating salt accumulating greens as a sort of relish for their foods, and there are other reports too. Still, they never would have been a major part of their diet. I think that it was cereal dependent people who needed the extra nutrients that greens provide on top of their grain based diet. I find it fascinating that these latter people somehow felt the need for eating these bitter, not particularly tasty foods. I do it myself, not out of conviction, but out of a feeling that something is missing if they aren't a regular part of my diet.

I also think that whatever innate sense we have of what our bodies need is completely overwhelmed by the dopamine hit we get from foods like icecream and other high reward highly processed foods.

Fresh cherries -mmmm. Unlike icecream, only comes once a year, so might as well enjoy it.

[oolala53]

Interesting observations. Thanks!

Well, now the semi-bad news. It's not terrible but I don't want to be too complacent.

I had regular blood tests done last week since I hadn't during the pandemic. I was a bit shaken to see that a graph of results showed that my bad cholesterol and average blood sugar have gone up and my good cholesterol and calcium have gone down right in step with my having further changed my diet January of 2020. I cut out nearly all sugar, and eat mostly foods that Zoe said are really great for my BG, and my A1C goes up? I cut out nearly all saturated fat and the cholesterol measures go in the wrong direction? So many internet gurus decry the medical advice, but I am going to ask a nutritionist from my health plan about it.

I was also disturbed to see how upset I was that I didn't get to feel smug about all my changes. UGH!I don't even want to tell anyone in my family, whom I don't actually talk to that often anyway, because I know they think I'm too focused on food. I have this fear about their being able to say, look at all the sacrifices she makes and it still didn't protect her. They think it's about weight and it is disturbing to me that my body fat keeps climbing even though I am not eating more, but I would really like to show that I can stay off meds for longer than just about everyone else. Why do I feel I need to be superior in this area? Because I feel I have to somehow make up for the fact that I have never been able to create a family system like they have. I don't think they judge me as harshly as I do myself on this, but last time we could have a family get-together, my grand niece said something that made me suspect that they do talk about me and think I have run away from the family. Well, I have! I thought it was going to pan out a bit differently. Believe me, I work on these ridiculous thoughts a lot, but this kind of even makes me see they are pretty hard-wired in there.

I am also, God save me, going to try one more different eating plan, starting in a couple of weeks, and then I swear, if it seems like it's not really worth the effort, I am going to find a way to swear off any research associated with eating issues, and just play it by ear, which will still mean sticking to a mostly whole diet. I will check in on some of the eating sites like this to report and cheer people on, but limit the time spent. I know I am avoiding other things I consider more troubling because this one is familiar and actually easy in comparison. This is also related to the issue above because I have this fantasy that if I were more involved with a husband and family, I would be less involved in eating issues, but that's ridiculous because nearly everyone I know of on most sites I'm on is married with a family!

I am trying the new eating partly because it is related to hunger and satiety, which continue to be bugaboos for me, AND to BG, which given these recent readings, seems reasonable, like not too over focused. I probably shouldn't even say anything about it until I've actually done it. I guess I like documenting. But I'll wait until I've done it a few weeks before I say more, or let you know I've decided NOT to do it.

[oolala53]

P.S. I don't always feel good about posting about any eating that doesn't really seem to jibe with No S. The reason I think this one is not bad to allude to is that it will likely lead to relatively systematic meal-eating though it may take some experimentation. But I would have to do that anyway, and have been, without truly satisfactory results. So, once more into the breach. sp?

[oolala53]

pasted image 0.png (69.46 KiB) Viewed 113526 times

I don't know why this posted three times, and I can't' seem to get rid of it.

[ladybird30]

Very frustrating for you.

Its been my observation that in recent years interesting but preliminary scientific research is getting turned into businesses perhaps before the science is really there to support the business model. Perhaps that might explain your less than satisfactory results with Zoe.

Be assured that I for one find your experiences interesting without being particularly tempted to try them out for myself. I look forward to your next report.

FWIW my blood sugar and blood pressure are fine, although I noticed that my cholesterol is creeping up. I put the good results down to exercise, eating a lot of whole plant foods, especially vegetables and avoiding processed foods and alcohol. The bad results I put down to the remaining excess weight around my middle and chronic inflammation. Who knows, I might be right.

[Soprano]

Sorry to read your numbers went the wrong way but great you found out and can do something about it. The one thing that puts me off Zoe from all I've read us that it doesn't include enough meat.

I think some people naturally do better with more meat protein and less carbs.

Do keep us updated.

Jx

[oolala53]

Thanks for your thoughts, Soprano and Ladybird30! Just to be clear, I didn't start following my new eating plan after Zoe. I started it from other sources back at the beginning of 2020, but I had been heading in that direction for awhile. Zoe recently told me that many of the foods I was eating fit into positive profiles for me based on how my body reacted to the test foods that are part of the program. It does claim to correlate which animal proteins would be best for my body. It is not a commercial program but part of research, a kind of citizen research. Then the routine testing my doctor orders periodically showed the trend in chartsL My cholesterol had been higher than I would have thought after losing so much weight and greatly reducing the binge foods, but my HDL/LDL/ ratio was very good and actually still is pretty good. It was just puzzling to me that it didn't go my way. It might be age, because most people's bodies' ability to process fat and sugar deteriorates over time. However, Zoe also told me that my gut biome is in the upper 25% in the population, so my eating is good for something. I had almost no bad bugs and I ascribe that to the reduction in animal products. Is it a catch-22? Can't tell yet. I just saw that on a FB group where I can tell that a lot of the people who post haven't made many changes in their eating and their biome numbers are pretty low.

I have been eating TONS of unprocessed plant foods for 18 months and hardly ever drink booze. Is exercise the key? I am intermittent about that, so it's something to do. I got in about 5 miles today, including climbing 22 stories in elevation.

Time will tell. I'm still not changing much, though with the new protocol next week might be willing to eat some animal stuff at times using Zoe guidelines to contrast the effect on BG and food thoughts. But I don't want to change anything except the timing first.

[Soprano]

I think I read somewhere that high cholesterol isn't necessarily a problem if the ratio of HDL/LDL is good.

So many changing thoughts a studies on diet it is hard to keep up.

Jx

[oolala53]

I have read that, too, it's just that the numbers are moving differently from what I expected, given the changes. I'm doing stuff that is RECOMMENDED and the numbers are off.

I'm supposed to start my 30 days tomorrow. I need a monitor that hasn't arrived yet. I knew it might not, but was hoping. I am not looking forward to this. I really feel for people who have active illnesses to contend with. I don't have one yet, but the stakes feel a little high. I really want my WOE, plus some kind of parameters, to be vindicated, but it may not. The program is 2 parts and one of them is heavy into high protein and a lot of the people are low carb. I wish there was a way to just have little corner where I just concentrate on timing. But it's a facebook group. I like this format so much better! It's got our own thread where a few of us can cheer each other on, and it's got the main board where you can try to engage a bigger crowd, but basically ignore anything you don't want to complicate your thoughts with, if you're smart.

I don't want to admit that I would like to lose some fat, but not by compromise I don't want to make. there are just so many sides in this diet/health debate and I made my choice after a LOT of perusal. So I'm still shook. But I am also willing to look at evidence, as long as it doesn't seem too cherry-picked which all of it is, including mine!

I think Amazon delivers up until 10 pm but I don't know how early they start. If I'm honest, I know I will not wake up hungry, so if I have to wait a few hours, I can be fine. I have meetings that will keep me busy for a lot of the day after 9:30 am. In fact, it could take longer than tomorrow to get the monitor, so I might have to be trailing. No big deal. This is just old diet head jitters/ excitement/drugs. Chill, Self!

[ladybird30]

Good luck, it sounds like an interesting experiment

[oolala53]

thanks. It hasn't been a good start. I took a chance not paying extra for postage and got the kit the night of the day I was supposed to start with a morning reading, yesterday. I had to work to stay calm reading through all the directions to use the device and skipped a lot of stuff about how to set all these different settings which seem complicated, though probably useful. The first reading was 107 which seemed rather reasonable since I had had a pasta dinner a couple hours earlier and cherries on the drive back.

I tried to get a reading pre-breakfast and couldn't, or just wouldn't keep pricking myself and failing. I'm pretty sure I tried seven times. Even with the deepest setting of the push pin device, a drop of blood would not emerge. I finally gave up and started my day. I was thinking, jeesh, I'd have to find a way to do this if I actually was diabetic. I came back from errands and took a nap, then tried again. It took a lot to get that drop and I got the same reading, which makes me suspicious, but also a bit worried, if it's accurate. It's not high, but the literature I'm seeing says the level should rise within a few hours and then drop back. When I was using the continuous monitor, it showed that I dropped even below 70 overnight and it didn't go up again until well after I had eaten. (It shows it in graph form only, and on my phone in pics I took, which don't show exact numbers.) I guess hovering that near 100 isn't bad.

I feel slightly weird about this because I was not directed by my doctor to do all this and I don't know if it is legitimate concern, not wanting to wait until it actually is dangerous, or part of the obsession and a diversion from harder stuff to face, like doing prep for my acting pursuit, or some meditative activities or deconditioning of anxious thought patterns from a meditation support class I'm taking. Even now I'm writing here when I could be doing one of those other tasks. This is just easier.

Just finished late lunch. Have a meeting online at 5 so I'll try another test then. If the reading comes up the same, I will call a help number in the materials. Going to watch Beauty and the Beast, as I am prepping playing the real life female screenwriter of that and other Disney movies.

[ladybird30]

I feel slightly weird about this because I was not directed by my doctor to do all this and I don't know if it is legitimate concern, not wanting to wait until it actually is dangerous, or part of the obsession and a diversion from harder stuff to face, like doing prep for my acting pursuit, or some meditative activities or deconditioning of anxious thought patterns from a meditation support class I'm taking. Even now I'm writing here when I could be doing one of those other tasks. This is just easier.

I don't monitor my blood sugar, but I do have a blood pressure monitor which I use occasionally because I have a family history of high blood pressure. I don't think it is weird at all, just part of self care.

[oolala53]

Thanks, ladybird. I have to admit part of my antsy feelings is because I have actively fought trying to meet a media appearance standard for most of my life, but I am intrigued by the idea that I could drain some fat, though honestly, and I do mean honestly, if my bodyfat were closer to 25%, which is not considered very lean, instead of 30% and climbing, I wouldn't be as interested in this. I'd like to think I can reverse this trend with something more precise than what got me here.

I had a weird thing happen this morning. I got a kind of shaky sense of hunger that I almost never get. I have been snacking a lot willy nilly, but today felt it pretty strong. I took my bg as part of the protocol and it had DROPPED about 30 points two hours after my breakfast. It was nearly in the "too low" range. Then I ate a small meal with good Zoe foods- and bg went up by nearly 70 points, even thought I had used more of a macro ratio recommended by the program. They posit from several sources that the rises condoned in mainstream med are too liberal and it's better if the rise is no greater than 30 pts! Well, I will keep testing and see what different combos result in. That margin may be too small for me.

Man, this aging stuff is perplexing.

[oolala53]

Me and my sad disappointment in my appetite. Have I found something? I'm on this program that ties eating to blood sugar readings, not desire or hunger. I'm only on day 2, but am already suspecting that it won't have the effect I wanted because I think I've gotten into the habit of choosing foods my body can deal pretty well with, which is also means not eating out much, because it can't handle restaurant food like it used to. I understand the reason, but I still feel a little sad about that when I think about it. It doesn't apply to my life much these days, so I just need to drop the thought when it comes up.

Anyway, I looked up what chemicals are most influential on the drive to eat and found that they, too, degenerate in their effect as we age. Ghrelin makes us want to eat; insulin decreases the desire, when things are working right. Ghrelin also decreases as our body fat rises. Ha! That might be equally relevant for me because even though I'm in the normal BMI range, my body fat has been going up. Maybe that's a major reason it takes mroe drastic measures to pump it up enough that I really feel it. Longer gaps and/or less food.

So, how will this affect my behavior? Not sure yet, but I do think I am feeling more willing to take some actions that I was stalling on, for various reasons. One is the age old "I gotta exercise CONSISTENTLY and include RESISTANCE." At my age, it's likely to simply preserve the muscle I have, especially with my plant food leanings. It is possible to lay on muscle with plant foods but apparently a lot more tricky.

Which leads to the second strategy: intermittent periods of time- not ready to commit to sustained ones, as I am ambivalent about the wisdom of the strategy-eating more animal foods to possibly accelerate changing the body fat ratio and thus get ghrelin kicked up some so that I feel more stomach-ready for my meals.

Thirdly, it may mean I have to live a little more vigilantly to stay in a body fat range that allows for greater ghrelin. I will find out if it is really that important to me. I have been dickering over it for around five years now, I think. Maybe I will discover that it's not as rewarding as I remember. I may just have to get used to going almost by looks alone on my plate.

[lpearlmom]

So sorry you’re still struggling with the hunger issues. I can’t imagine how much that much suck. It’s kinda like those ppl that have lost their taste and smell with covid. Taking those simple pleasures away sound really rough to me.

Best of luck with your new strategies!

[oolala53]

Thanks, LInda. It's not an issue I could have predicted, but things could be so much worse!

I've been using the blood glucose readings for about a week. Interestingly, one morning I got a shaky semi-desperate urge to eat earlier than I usually do . When I checked my BG, it was nearly 20 points lower than what my "target" is to eat a meal. I don't remember having that kind of feeling in my early years of No S even when I went much longer between meals. But I went ahead and had a smallish meal because it was just too early for a major one. But I think I still had only three meals.

I have at times felt the rumblings of my old hunger and darned if it doesn't correlate with my not dragging out my morning coffee. I realize now I was using between-meal cafe au lait a lot in my early years, but for my purposes then, it worked. I would still get hungry for lunch around 12:40 pm when my school scheduled it.

For the first week, which ended yesterday, I didn't change the content of my meals much even though I eat a muh higher carb content, including the vilified legumes and starches, that the promoters of the program recommend, though no one will kick me out for it. It's all about figuring things out for ourselves, but I am sure to get advice to cut them and go animal if I report any problems. They are NOT keto, as they believe that there is no way to get truly adequate nutrition- not just calories- on such high fat. They have a separate program specifically on nutritiion but it is incredibly detailed. They claim many satiety issues are related to it, but my readings of Stephan Guyenet have me suspicious. If I had more serious health problems, I might be willing to surrender but I already feel like I am so different from so many people with my eating that I am loathe at this point to find any other reason to be picky, esp since some of my major social network is vegetarian and the new group is convinced animals provide a lot more than protein. Time will tell.

Today I start experimenting with less starch and more protein-including animal- just to see.

I had a scheduling issue and ended up having a rushed "meal" of just tofu and a carrot around noon but felt it was not enough and added Greek yogurt with cocoa powder and some nuts around 2 pm after my zoom meeting ended. find myself wanting more stuff to chew when I try to cut starches. The veggies just don't seem to have the same effect, although I like them, too. I suspect the brain knows the difference, and gives me more pleasure because of the density it knows it has had from the legumes, grains and potatoes it is used to. I will just have to keep experimenting but also reminding myself that the chew desire is not related to food need. But I don't think I'll move to smoothies unless I eat them much like soup, taking my time. That would be if I was having a hard time getting the protein any other way.

When I used to try to go low carb without meat, I would gnaw on packages of cream cheese or even cheese. Not effective on any level. And now that's not an option, since my Zoe test said my body's ability to clear fats has deteriorated. But there are some animal foods that have some fat that score decently high for my body. For some reason, full fat mozzarella is preferable to skim for me and there are some other examples like that. I have some of the lesser quality stuff in my freezer and I'm not dedicated enough to throw them out. I will just spread them out more with leaner protein and less starchy veggies until they are gone.

This program says that calories for weight loss are actually king, but macros and nutrients are where the satiety is. So, you can lose on just about any deficit, but you are more likely to be satisfied with the deficit from specific foods. I know some sources say protein is the most satiating macronutrient but Guyenet reports that plain boiled potatoes scored highest in other tests. Oy.

I have to admit that I sometimes miss meat in a way that I don't miss desserts. I wish that so many of the spiritual influences I like best didn't have me have me in a quandary over that. I did lose most of my weight on No S with roughly 40% carbs, and 30 each of the other two, with animal foods every day, pretty much every meal. But I hadn't delved into some of these other influences then.

I do have turkey neck meat thawing right now. That and some vegan cheese was one of the meals I used in Zoe. That yielded the stablest blood sugar but Zoe said it was too fatty for my good. Today the plan is to toss it with greens, sun dried tomatoes in olive oil (drained), broccoli and a few tablespoons of whole rye berries. Maybe something else but I don't want to dwell on it now. I have been feeling peckish at night. We'll see if that poor dead turkey makes a difference. BTW Zoe says white meat turkey is my best land animal option. And turkey wing is better than chicken breast. Huh. but none of the animals get scores above 65/100 for my gut biome. Sigh.

I'm shocked that even fresh squeezed lemon juice isn't very good for my blood sugar. The body is such a damned efficient lab! But using a tablespoon or so, as long as it isn't every day and balanced with other better foods, is the way to go, apparently.

Boy, I also never thought I'd get so focused on nutrition and may end up just taking my chances after this month is up, but I would not feel good about doing that without taking my head out of the sand for a bit.

[oolala53]

The experiment continues. I was on a roller coaster today. The program calculates my trigger and lowers it if the reading has been low for the previous few days but today it dropped it lower than I thought it should. I dearly wanted to eat breakfast on arising but forced myself to go walk first. I thought about breakfast all the way back. The reading hadn't come down, which makes sense because exercise will often draw on the stored glucose and raise bg so the work can get done. But I still felt hunger, even though I'm sure my body has plenty of reserves. I've noticed many times that hunger goes away when I exercise but it didn't today. One can use a higher BG trigger after exercise and I took advantage of it. I ate the kind of meal that usually satisfies me, but I still felt a sense of being vulnerable afterwards right up until a normal lunch time, even though I had eaten later than usual. The reading was still a few points too high, but I decided to defy the protocol because I felt a kind of urgency I rarely remember in the early days of No S. But, I have also lost a lot of weight and it's likely now there is less of a margin, as I have had fat stores hanging around all this time and the body likely won't give them up easily, especially since I am at a reasonable weight. I ate a lunch more in keeping with the recommendations of the program, something I had cooked up and frozen in anticipation of experimenting with more animal foods. The meal also had more fat than I'm used to. It took a couple of hours, but dang if I then felt very sated and had not really been hungry since finishing around six hours ago until not long ago. I was surprised that more than four hours later, by BG was higher than it normally is at that time. I thought with higher protein and fat, it would have dropped sooner. The program says it's a way to retrain hunger, teaching us to read the body signs more carefully, trying to see a correlation between the readings and the body signals. Today they fit but I've had other days when the reading was as high as it was this evening yet I felt very hungry. I think hormones are more responsible for the feeling of hunger; there might be some correlation with blood sugar but it's not the only factor. I know I'm making this sound like torture, and I didn't like today much, but it is getting me to wait longer and that was a habit I had lost. I actually like that I have the readings as some data to use for now. It's not No S-ish at all yet; they claim that eventually it will turn into a pattern. But they also recommend trying to get more calories in as early in the day as possible. I keep having this desire to preserve a dinner time even though I so rarely eat meals with anyone and could quite easily finish eating any time I like. I did have an online meeting tonight so that took attention away, though I wasn't hungry anyway. But I have felt some twinges. If I could sleep early and stay asleep, I wouldn't eat, but my reading says I am below my trigger. I am not going to log it; we are given one meal a day we don't have to log, though it's supposed to be the major meal we want to eat with others. I just don't want that system to use that low number against me. Some of the people there want to get the readings lower faster; they are usually heavier or in the dire straits of prediabetes or diabetes itself. God bless 'em.

[oolala53]

It's been a week and I have gone semi-low carb. I am not eating my normal rye, oats and barley plus legumes. I have gone back to animal products. There was just too little variation for me with vegetarian sources. It has really done a number on my identity. I had convinced myself that it is better in so many ways to eat mostly plants, but I could not accept the changes that were happening in my body, changes that weren't supposed to happen. The other camp predicts what happened to me. I don't usually believe in temporary plans but I can't see myself eating like this permanently. However, humans used to eat more seasonally, so it makes sense to me to doing something periodically to counteract negative trends. I do have a bit of fear that the pendulum will swing when I decide to start widening my food choices again. I will be using my BG monitor after I eat for awhile, to see how high it goes after my meals.

I was also a bit worried about my 199 cholesterol and deteriorating HDL/LDL ratio, but one of the doctors associated with this program said the real marker to watch is triglycerides and mine are low. Is the just seeing that because he subconsciously wants to defend his saturated fat consumption? But I'm not making red meat part of the regular rotation, which was recommended against by Zoe.

Another thing the doctor said was that if you are in the last phase of changing your body composition- and that is what he is advocating-, it can take a year to lose five pounds of fat and keep it off. It also convinced me that I have to find a way to incorporate doing some high resistance exercise. It is the only way to activate the kind of muscle tissue that is metabolically active even at rest. I have lost over ten pounds of muscle, maybe even closer to twenty, since I started No S and replaced it with fat. That's a process that can escalate pretty easily as we age.

[ladybird30]

I will put in a plug for resistance exercise here. I do bodyweight exercises as I don't care for gyms and barbells are too hard on my joints. I also enjoy the ongoing challenge of getting the positions right and the progression of harder exercises.

Getting stronger has made it easier to do other things that I enjoy, like hiking with friends and maintaining my garden. It also has made me feel better within myself.

As I get older I also want to be able to carry heavy shopping, lift bags of fertilizer and get out of the bath. Need muscle for all those things.

[oolala53]

I want to say I agree but admit that that doesn’t mean I am committed yet. It’s a little like when I used to read diet books while I sat there eating a bowl of brownie batter. It sounded good in theory. But I’m gearing up for it. The evidence is just too great. If my calculations are right. I have lost 15 to 20 pounds of muscle over the last 20 years very likely. A lot of it has probably been since no ass because I did not exercise consistently and certainly not resistance. I might’ve said it in a previous post but I listened to a very interesting presentation about different kinds of muscle fibers and there is a type that is exercised by intense activity that doesn’t get worked by endurance exercise. At that type of muscle is metabolically much more active. However, also about 25 years ago or maybe even 30, I learned about intense resistance exercise like that using a protocol called super slow. This was also mentioned in the recent video that I saw. The unfortunate thing about it is it does not feel good to do; in fact I used to have the sense that it felt ugly because it was so intense. Can you get some good out of exercise that is much more pleasurable? Absolutely but it will very likely not be exercise that will replace what I’ve lost. And I think it may be related to some of my appetite issues. Another thing that is kind of slowing me and getting more serious about it is that at my age I can recover a lot of strength but my body is not going to be as likely to re-add back muscle that was lost. For the same amount of effort that would’ve allowed me to preserve what I had I will probably get only half to a quarter of the results. But what’s the alternative? Continue to whittle away at it on the inside? I met up with a woman I know through a zoom activity today and we ended up walking 6 miles so i’m not ready right now especially since it’s still hot this afternoon to push myself. That activity was a good one for several reasons but not for the muscle tissue that I’m talking about. But I really do have to quit thinking about it and talking about it without doing anything about it. So right now I commit before bedtime to doing four minutes of intense resistance.

But I also came because I think I understand why I react to peanuts and cashews so differently than other items that we call nuts. Those other items are nuts and peanuts and cashews are actually legumes. The cashews especially have a little bit of sweetness to them that makes them extremely seductive to me (and probably others, too.) I can be much more reasonable in my intake of almonds, walnuts, pecans, or they may have some of that attractiveness as well, and macadamias. I still have a few cashews in my little storage area but I quit buying peanuts months and months ago. I just did it instinctively but reading that today helped reinforce why I decided I’d rather not grapple with my desire for them. If I want to eat a legume, I’ll eat one that has higher satiety. The same thing for nuts, real nuts.

The program that I’m involved with right now has an ad junked class on nutrition that is supposed to be focused on nutrient density in foods as a property of satiety. It’s a six week course that’s apparently very involved. I have to say that I am getting convinced by some of the arguments that I’ve been reading but I wish the course was starting in a few weeks because I feel like I’ve been spending way too much time reading and listening and thinking about this. It’s the last six week course they’re offering this year and it starting tomorrow. I feel in someways even discussing this on this board is a bit of a betrayal but I just have to conclude from so many people’s experiences over the years that vanilla alone can I have some weaknesses as time goes on. I’ve proven that it’s possible to lose weight with it to a certain degree while still eating quite a variety of foods, including ones that are actually not very supportive of a long health span. But my margin of safety has gotten much smaller in the last 11 years. What I put on the plate is much more important, not for just weight loss but for body composition, which is becoming more relevant for real health. And if I haven’t already admitted it, though I have never wanted to aim at the aesthetics of this venture, I have in the back of my mind wanted to achieve at least 25% body fat. In my 30s, I did an intense program for a period of time that took me from about 28% to 19%. Apparently my body does not want to live at 19% because it would’ve taken quite a bit of attention to many details in my life to have maintained that. And of course there was the rebound. Maybe not of course but there was a rebound and I went back up quite easily to 28% but at a much higher weight. Now I’m at a lower weight but I am at nearly 31%. It’s just a little frightening to be going forward into my senior years with that trajectory. I am willing to do some thing about it while I am still able bodied. Through my Indian philosophy group, I am around other seniors who are quite a bit older than I am and many of them have been slim most of their lives, but they are putting on weight and feel very little incentive or willingness to fight it. I can’t guarantee that I won’t get there as well so I’m thinking I should do as much as I can now.But it is even farther from the main stream than something like no S, which shouldn’t be thought of as radical, but which many people do think is. The other thing is that I’ve been associated with groups that are more fans of vegetarianism and even veganism, and changing the composition of the body that way is harder than those groups would like to make you believe. I can’t see myself completely embracing the opposite camp, but I don’t feel like I can completely endorse the old one anymore. And yet I feel that in order to be comfortable around people in social situations, I would really like to feel on a decent wave length with the others around me. But if you’re talking about the general culture, that one in my mind now is so dysfunctional that I find myself having to do mental gymnastics in that company around any discussions of food.

In any case, I did eat quite a higher ratio than normal of animal foods today and I do have to admit that I have remained satiated for many hours. For at least a week I have eaten almost no legumes or grains which I never thought I would say. But I have to admit that it has allowed me too eat several hundred calories a day less every day. I’m not willing to keep it up, so it will be interesting to see what happens when I incorporate those foods back in. I will be using my blood glucose monitor differently at that point and if I find out that my blood sugar is climbing higher then I think it’s good now. I will be reconstituting my diet. I think I’ve said before that I actually feel kind of bummed about this because I trusted the sources that I had finally surrendered to . Not only that, but I had actually formed an identity around making those choices and realized I felt a sense of virtue associated with them that I didn’t want to feel, but that I did, and now I don’t have that to justify myself. And I was so wanted to be right! And I so wanted the other guy to be wrong, as the experts that I was listening to kept claiming they were. But my body has done what the opposition said would happen. I could probably change it on the plant side but it would take as equally a precise and even obsessive regime that I just don’t want to feel that I have to live with.

Sometimes I fantasize that I could go to a hypnotist and say make me forget that I was ever concerned about my weight. Maybe I should be careful what I wish for because A terrible adversity might be able to make that happen, so this might be the best bet right now.

[oolala53]

I want to say I agree but admit that that doesn’t mean I am committed yet. It’s a little like when I used to read diet books while I sat there eating a bowl of brownie batter. It sounded good in theory. But I’m gearing up for it. The evidence is just too great. If my calculations are right. I have lost 15 to 20 pounds of muscle over the last 20 years very likely. A lot of it has probably been since No S because I did not exercise consistently and certainly not resistance. I might’ve said it in a previous post but I listened to a very interesting presentation about different kinds of muscle fibers and there is a type that is exercised by intense activity that doesn’t get worked by endurance exercise. At that type of muscle is metabolically much more active. However, also about 25 years ago or maybe even 30, I learned about intense resistance exercise like that using a protocol called super slow. This was also mentioned in the recent video that I saw. The unfortunate thing about it is it does not feel good to do; in fact I used to have the sense that it felt ugly because it was so intense. Can you get some good out of exercise that is much more pleasurable? Absolutely but it will very likely not be exercise that will replace what I’ve lost. And I think it may be related to some of my appetite issues. Another thing that is kind of slowing me and getting more serious about it is that at my age I can recover a lot of strength but my body is not going to be as likely to re-add back muscle that was lost. For the same amount of effort that would’ve allowed me to preserve what I had I will probably get only half to a quarter of the results. But what’s the alternative? Continue to whittle away at it on the inside? I met up with a woman I know through a zoom activity today and we ended up walking 6 miles so i’m not ready right now especially since it’s still hot this afternoon to push myself. That activity was a good one for several reasons but not for the muscle tissue that I’m talking about. But I really do have to quit thinking about it and talking about it without doing anything about it. So right now I commit before bedtime to doing four minutes of intense resistance.

But I also came because I think I understand why I react to peanuts and cashews so differently than other items that we call nuts. Those other items are nuts and peanuts and cashews are actually legumes. The cashews especially have a little bit of sweetness to them that makes them extremely seductive to me (and probably others, too.) I can be much more reasonable in my intake of almonds, walnuts, pecans, or they may have some of that attractiveness as well, and macadamias. I still have a few cashews in my little storage area but I quit buying peanuts months and months ago. I just did it instinctively but reading that today helped reinforce why I decided I’d rather not grapple with my desire for them. If I want to eat a legume, I’ll eat one that has higher satiety. The same thing for nuts, real nuts.

The program that I’m involved with right now has an ad junked class on nutrition that is supposed to be focused on nutrient density in foods as a property of satiety. It’s a six week course that’s apparently very involved. I have to say that I am getting convinced by some of the arguments that I’ve been reading but I wish the course was starting in a few weeks because I feel like I’ve been spending way too much time reading and listening and thinking about this. It’s the last six week course they’re offering this year and it starting tomorrow. I feel in someways even discussing this on this board is a bit of a betrayal but I just have to conclude from so many people’s experiences over the years that vanilla alone can I have some weaknesses as time goes on. I’ve proven that it’s possible to lose weight with it to a certain degree while still eating quite a variety of foods, including ones that are actually not very supportive of a long health span. But my margin of safety has gotten much smaller in the last 11 years. What I put on the plate is much more important, not for just weight loss but for body composition, which is becoming more relevant for real health. And if I haven’t already admitted it, though I have never wanted to aim at the aesthetics of this venture, I have in the back of my mind wanted to achieve at least 25% body fat. In my 30s, I did an intense program for a period of time that took me from about 28% to 19%. Apparently my body does not want to live at 19% because it would’ve taken quite a bit of attention to many details in my life to have maintained that. And of course there was the rebound. Maybe not of course but there was a rebound and I went back up quite easily to 28% but at a much higher weight. Now I’m at a lower weight but I am at nearly 31%. It’s just a little frightening to be going forward into my senior years with that trajectory. I am willing to do some thing about it while I am still able bodied. Through my Indian philosophy group, I am around other seniors who are quite a bit older than I am and many of them have been slim most of their lives, but they are putting on weight and feel very little incentive or willingness to fight it. I can’t guarantee that I won’t get there as well so I’m thinking I should do as much as I can now.But it is even farther from the main stream than something like no S, which shouldn’t be thought of as radical, but which many people do think is. The other thing is that I’ve been associated with groups that are more fans of vegetarianism and even veganism, and changing the composition of the body that way is harder than those groups would like to make you believe. I can’t see myself completely embracing the opposite camp, but I don’t feel like I can completely endorse the old one anymore. And yet I feel that in order to be comfortable around people in social situations, I would really like to feel on a decent wave length with the others around me. But if you’re talking about the general culture, that one in my mind now is so dysfunctional that I find myself having to do mental gymnastics in that company around any discussions of food.

In any case, I did eat quite a higher ratio than normal of animal foods today and I do have to admit that I have remained satiated for many hours. For at least a week I have eaten almost no legumes or grains which I never thought I would say. But I have to admit that it has allowed me too eat several hundred calories a day less every day. I’m not willing to keep it up, so it will be interesting to see what happens when I incorporate those foods back in. I will be using my blood glucose monitor differently at that point and if I find out that my blood sugar is climbing higher then I think it’s good now. I will be reconstituting my diet. I think I’ve said before that I actually feel kind of bummed about this because I trusted the sources that I had finally surrendered to . Not only that, but I had actually formed an identity around making those choices and realized I felt a sense of virtue associated with them that I didn’t want to feel, but that I did, and now I don’t have that to justify myself. And I was so wanted to be right! And I so wanted the other guy to be wrong, as the experts that I was listening to kept claiming they were. But my body has done what the opposition said would happen. I could probably change it on the plant side but it would take as equally a precise and even obsessive regime that I just don’t want to feel that I have to live with.

Sometimes I fantasize that I could go to a hypnotist and say make me forget that I was ever concerned about my weight. Maybe I should be careful what I wish for because A terrible adversity might be able to make that happen, so this might be the best bet right now.

[ladybird30]

Good luck with the four minutes. I do hope you find something you enjoy. Congrats on the 6 mile walk - I think you are fitter than many women our age.

I use a tick list to keep myself up to the mark - that tick on the sheet of paper is a little reward for me. I need something to counteract my tendency to sit around all day besides the reasons I listed above.

[oolala53]

Ladybird, thanks for that and it might be right for "regular" exercise. I watched this very interesting video explaining why lifting heavy weights (or doing something really really taxing but slow) is so important. I haven't committed to doing it the way it's recommended because I DID go to a trainer for this years ago. It was rather expensive and NOT pleasant at all! Though it was a short workout. But I have paid a price. So I am working up to it and may even throw some money at it for a couple of months to get me going. But this video explains why I can walk ten miles in a day but keep losing muscle and gaining fat.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=yo ... &FORM=VIRE
This comes from a radical diet doctor and i'm not recommending that anyone look at his other stuff unless they have health problems. But the exercise stuff he got from big time experts in the field.

Well, I think I have had my turning-point experience with white flour baked items, at least. I hadn't been eating them at all for awhile, and didn't really miss them, though sometimes had a yen for pizza, but just for the heck of it ate some bread by itself the other day and then tested my BG. It was absolutely CHILLING to see that my count went up to 192! And you can't do anything about that but just wait for it to come down. Well, a leisurely walk can help but only a little. My count normally goes up to less than 120, sometimes closer to 130. One time it went to 147 after a meal with a lot of chickpeas and I forget what else, but no flour or processed food. That is considered to be prediabetic. Those wide swings are very much associated with degenerative disease and you can't really feel them. I did eat quite a lot of the bread, but I find myself not willing to even try out smaller amounts. Did I say I found out that my father did develop diabetes before he died? I looked back at some notes somewhere and found that I actually knew that but had forgotten it. His mother had it, too. I will do A LOT to avoid having to go on insulin. I had a meal with a half cup of lentils today and it went up to 126. I kept the starch out of the evening meal because I had read that the bg will stay lower if the next meal isn't starchy. It makes me wonder what had been going on when I was eating such high starch for so long, I will experiment more with that, but on the weekends. I know my a1C had risen but that's an average. I could have been having those swings routinely, though several days of the continuous monitor I used showed relative evenness. I am getting enough to eat, but it is shaking me up a bit that I probably can't have some of those old days of eating legumes AND grain all day. And "can't" is an appropriate word in this case because it is not about the scale or vanity. You can mess with the scale but you can't fool the body into keeping blood glucose low on the foods that make it rise. Well, sometimes you can but the amounts can be annoyingly small. I will wait until an S day to test just what the limits are for whole starches. But this sure is changing my routines. I'm going through a lot of test strips but I think a a few months of testing a lot will get me familiar enough with what the parameters are. Then it's a matter of sticking to them, which I have shown I can pretty much do, especially when the reasons are so clear.

[pinkhippie]

I have finally caught up on your experiments! I wish auto was around, she always had such interesting things and knowledge about blood sugars. Good for you getting going with resistance exercise! I always start it but seem to not maintain it as I find it very boring. And hard!

And yes! reading diet books while eating a bowl of brownie batter! Or my personal favorite, watching exercise videos curled up on the couch!

I wish you well in your nutrition experiments. It's so hard to figure it all out sometimes it seems.

[ladybird30]

Hi Oolala - I have noticed a difference in my leg muscles from doing strength training, even though I walk as well. The main difference is in the quads from squats.

My strength training has cost me nothing but the price of the book I use. One of the reasons I do it on my own is because I can space the exercises out during the day, and over the week. Sufficient recovery time makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant. Whenever I think of not doing them, which is quite often, I think of the alternative, which is losing my hard earned gains and becoming weak. I have been doing some late winter planting in my garden, and it is much easier to wield a mattock, dig holes and wheel a wheebarrow full of dirt and compost than it otherwise would be.

[oolala53]

Pink hippie, good one about watching fitness DVDs while lounging. Ladybird, I do remember even when I was doing lighter weights, after a few weeks I felt a lot of pep in my step. I won't expect quick gains, though. I've been walking a fair amount recently and have some hills in my area. Sad to say, they aren't actually getting a lot easier very quickly; my body used to responded faster though I was never a powerhouse.

I've done a little of the tough resistance stuff. The recommendation is to push to absolute failure with slow movements and then take several days of rest. The whole circuit takes only 10-20 minutes. I'm trying it out some but honestly, to get the benefit of what is talked about, you have to be good at taking a lot of discomfort. It is considered one of the most efficient ways to condition the muscle, and was actually discovered training senior women with osteoporosis for whom it was too risky to lift lighter weights more repetitions and more often. I don't know if it changed their bone porosity but the researchers were astounded by how fast the women's strength grew. But the movements have to be very slow; that's what helps keep it safe. When I did it decades ago, I was amazed that I could work so hard and not feel one bit of soreness later. One guy I read about, who had been an active athlete as well as body builder and power lifter, gave up doing anything but this protocol only 3-4 times a MONTH for nine months (after years of multiple workouts of a few hours each in the gym), and then for the heck of it entered some kind of multi-event competition and won in his category, even up against younger Crossfit-type competitors. But it's NOT fun. Most people need a coach at least at the beginning because they otherwise don't work to the intensity needed and without that, the gains are not proportionate at all.

That said, I'll try using my lighter weights in a more traditional way to establish habit a bit, but the truth is, if you do this stuff, you cannot do any weight lifting in between. Recovery is when the magic happens. But for now, I'll be able to build some strength for sure. So I will find something else milder to replace it for consistency's sake when the time comes. Boy, listen to me, as if I'm already anticipating making this all happen.

My starch experiment today was with a half cup of bulgur. BG went up around 40 points. Grr. I'm eating so differently and not loving it. When I started No S, I never found myself thinking, "I can hardly wait until this is over." With this, I find myself doing that but the truth is going back to how I was eating doesn't seem like an option. I am not willing to try this without eating animals or their products because then my food choices are way too narrow. I have kind of liked getting back some choices but I didn't expect to have to trade them for so many other choices. I rotated at least three different legumes and maybe four different grains every week. They really started to feel different to me. Now I feel like I am eating a lot of the same foods over and over and I'm only a month into it! It sure makes me appreciate what people with more serious health problems are facing.

[ladybird30]

Good to hear that you are making some progress with the exercise. If what I read is true, it is possible that with more muscle and less fat you will see your insulin sensitivity rise and will be able to eat more grains and legumes without seeing your blood glucose rise too much. But you probably know this already.

[oolala53]

I could have sworn I posted the other day. I visited a few threads and expected the place to be abuzz with the news that this site might close. I have so many positive associations here. This is where my turnaround on bingeing happened. I poured out my frustrations and reinforced the learning I needed to make the new habits. I have not solved the complete puzzle as there is still a discrepancy between my behavior and how I think I should be eating, but I am working with the sense of the ideal; maybe I don't need to be meeting quite that standard, since as I've talked about rather ad nauseam, my appetite has changed and I don't get legitimately hungry as often as I have the desire to eat. Am I fighting a too-low setpoint? Or is it just using food as a drug, still? The experimenting with a different macro makeup continues to see if I can drive the blood glucose down without messing up the fat readings.

But the sad truth is that this and Sparkpeople- which closed in the middle of August, all my posts from 2007 to the present, gone forever, though I did save some blogs- are the only places I could come obsess about this eternal topic where there was a chance anyone else would listen and respond. Yeah, I am on the No S Facebook group, but that one is rather slow and doesn't seem to have many people post who are actually doing it. They seem like they are often coming back to it, then getting diverted for long periods again. That is actually typical of weight loss attempts in general, but I liked feeling like I was participating where the emphasis was more on the value of the habit, and grappling with the mind habits that get in the way. Maybe that was true here, too, that many people weren't actually implementing it for long periods of time. No one in my personal life would be interested. I know my family thinks I am rather difficult because I am different from them in my attitude towards what the problem even is, and I think it's because they feel threatened, even though they could definitely use making some changes. And that is part of the problem from my side in that I walk around feeling like so many people should change. I want to have the idea that people are free to do that they like, but I definitely have ideas of how it SHOULD be. And that is against my aspired-to "religion." Why should I care what they do? It's because on some level, I am not at peace with my choices, that there is still unease, and I can feel like I am fighting the fight on my own. And some of my reasonings depend on thinking the world should be a certain way and I need to do my part. But the people whose ideas I am experimenting with now are often such zealots that I can't take that, either. I don't mean to make sacrilegious analogies but I sometimes feel like Jesus in the garden when he prayed and asked to be delivered from his sacrifice. This is what I'm feeling about choosing to cut way back on foods that raise my BG into the prediabetic zone, which is many of my staples. Even a quarter of a cup of my favorite rye berries takes me close to the zone. I want to be delivered from having to do without those foods in the quantities I prefer, and it feels more like a sacrifice because I was convinced they were good for me. I don't feel longing to get a lot of traditional processed foods back. But beans and whole grains? Waa. Is it so terrible that they drive my BG into the prediabetic zone, if my body then recovers well? I unfortunately don't trust my doctor on this because it is likely she is trained not to ask for any intervention from me until I am consistenty in that zone, but who knows what damage is happening to heart and blood vessels along the way? An article I read about a study of over 18,000 men showed 1.5 x increase in cardiac troubles from spikes into the prediabetic zone. Another showed that young healthy people frequently had spiked even into the diabetic range. Does this kill you fast? No, but I am at an age where I have less time to recover from mistakes, and I am willing to do a fair amount to avoid them. (Possibly repeating but father had a QUINTUPLE bypass in the last few years of his life, and had developed diabetes, which his mother also had. Both his parents died before I was born. It sure seems like that heart trouble had been building a long time even though he was of normal weight and walked a fair amount every day.) Mom lasted a long time but was on a bunch of meds.

I just have this strong sense that I don't want to depend on meds just so that I can keep eating damaging food.

Plus TMI warning: My bowels, which had things moving so gloriously, now need some kind of supplement to have anything happen. Can that be good? My ZOE report found NONE of the fifteen bacteria they find the most troublesome (after 15 months of very little meat and dairy and lots of foods raising my BG, which they also realized, but apparently think the biome is counteracting with other advantages.) Are they back after three months of lots of eating dead chicken, turkey, and fish? And lots of dairy? My meals are mostly those items and veggies, plus medium amounts of berries and half an apple or banana even less often. I didn't have any summer fruit. In the amounts that would have worked, it would have likely been like it got with sweets: the amount that is actually smart to have is not very satisfying. And there is something a little wrong if I need a big chunk of something sweet to feel satisfied, at least in my mind these days.

I thought I could do some coaching on this, but hit a sticking point with the program I was supposed to be getting training with, not their doing, and backed off. But I keep thinking there is a place for me because dammit, I have succeeded, even if I am not at over it! Or maybe I don't deserve to hold myself up since it still feels like I have to think about it to do it. Or is that just a mirage? I can't find enough other stuff to divert me to find out.

But there is one thing, and a group is having a meeting on FB in a few minutes, to I'll go to that.

[ladybird30]

That is a radical change in diet. No wonder you are finding it hard to adjust. Out of curiosity, has it made any difference to your fasting blood sugar?

I wish I had some direct experience to help you or some qualifications in the field, but all I have is what I have read, which you are probably familiar with anyway. So please bear with me if you already know what follows.

Recent research suggests that type 2 diabetes is linked to whether a person is over their personal fat threshold, which is specific to that individual. And visceral fat is the most dangerous here. As your BMI is already in the "healthy' range, I can only repeat the suggestion that consistent resistance training will help build muscle and reduce the amount of body fat you have. My reading of the evidence suggests that low carb diets help produce stable blood sugars, but it is body fat loss that leads to better pancreas function and lower overall blood sugars.

As an indication of the unfairness of life, my fasting blood sugar is in the lower end of the normal range in spite of excess weight around my middle and a history of bingeing. I can only put it down to exercise, and possibly from deliberately delaying my first meal, even if exercising, to drive down my blood sugars. I am built like my diabetic grandmother, so am keen to reduce my risk further. I also rarely eat nowadays unless I am hungry, so that should also help keep my blood sugar down.

You have come so far, and I wish you all the best.

[Soprano]

Oolala, I love reading your posts, I too am trying to reduce blood sugar as a year ago my Hba1c was in the prediabetic range.

Just waiting results of latest test!

I am reasonably consistent at missing breakfast and eating low carb. I am avoiding ultra processed foods where possible. The last thing I am changing is my alcohol intake as it has increased over last couple of years. Last 2 months I've had fewer drinking days and kept it pretty moderate when I have had a drink, mainly wine.

Jx

[pinkhippie]

Oolala I know what you mean about your feelings about this site! I joined when my middle daughter had just been born and now she is 12. I learned so many things here and it is really helpful to have others also going through a similar habit journey. I am definitely working on implementing the habits on a regular basis, but it gets boring to post about so I don't post often.

I don't have too much experience with blood sugar and diet. I wish auto was still around! This was one of her topics.

Thank you for coming to my check-in and letting me know about Reinhards thread.

[oolala53]

Ladybird, even though my BMI is in the right range, my body fat has been rising, so I might be reaching my threshold. I just can't seem to get really committed to consistent exercise, especially the kind that really maintains or increases muscle. I agree that that might help my body recover some of its ability to use the starches but in the mean time I'm holding off on foods that cause much of a spike, which is nearly all the grains and legumes I was used to. I have 1/4-1/2 cup at one meal a day. I know it's changed my BG because I measure the hell out of it. What I don't know is what has happened to cholesterol, Cdl, ldl, and trigylcerides. I'm going to contact my doctor today to ask for labs.

An interesting article I came across claimed that some research showed that older adults who developed prediabetes did not typically go on to develop diabetes, even though they lived long enough to have that happen, as it normally does after about ten years, during which time havoc is being wreaked on CV system. But I am not betting on that yet. With a father and grandmother with diabetes, my odds might not be as good; my threshold might be lower than even many overweight people with no propensity.So for at least awhile more, it's more animal food and fiber supplements.

I am coming across people who are total, and I mean total, meat eaters. They claim to have no problem with elimination but it's a delicate topic to ask for details about.

Thanks, all, for listening!

[ladybird30]

Good to hear that your BG is responding to your change in diet.

[Amy3010]

I admire the hard work you are doing to figure this all out - it sounds like it requires a lot of commitment. So frustrating when you feel like you are doing the right things and yet the labs don't support it (yet?). Hang in there!

[oolala53]

I am getting a little more used to the range of foods I can eat without big rises. I haven't been as routine about plating my meals, though for now I am okay with that. It's funny because the meals can be even simpler; I was better about it when I had more complicated plates.

There are frozen legumes and grains in my freezer that have been there since July. I used to cook such big batches but went through them fairly fast. Eating 1/4 to 1/2 cup at a time rather than a total of three cups a day really slows down the usage.

I have finally gotten clear on something that it seems to me some of the keto/ fat-adapting people do not grok: even if your body is mainly burning fat for fuel- mine might be but I am not buying the strips to find out-it will use the food we eat first for its needs before ever dipping into fat stores, so calories DO count. They just might not count in the exact numbers that appear on some chart. The body can slow the use or speed it up. Apparently, it slows the use LESS when it's using fat, so people can take in more calories than they can burning sugar, but they are specific kinds of food you can eat more of. More food does not mean more cake! Or anything close to cake. So it's just more eggs, meat, fish or cheese, basically. It's interesting that for the most part when they are not combined with starchy foods, I don't want that much more. But that fits theory about eating. In fact, professional eaters know they can eat more steak if they have a bit of potato with it.

In terms of weight or fat loss, I doubt anything on that front will happen until I've done consistent bouts of intense exercise for awhile. Though I still do step on the scale. I guess I need to somehow annoy myself with finding out that I have a visceral reaction to the number. But I can chuckle about it a bit, too.

I was at an event Saturday night where someone brought a Costco chocolate sheet cake, which used to be one of my favorite drugs of choice. Oh, my gosh, the ecstasy of that frosting, especially. I distinctly remember buying one for my birthday one year and having more than half the cake leftover the next day. I kept telling myself each slice I cut and ate would be the last one but I think I ate half of that half in one day. I used to think seeing some old favorite like that was like the Wicked Witch of the West trying to take the ruby slippers from Dorothy, getting her hands shocked by some kind of electrical energy. Danger! or Poison! as some people need to think about these things. Now I can actually remember the thrill fondly without wanting to repeat it. It's kind of a weird paradox. I do sometimes wish I didn't think it's so damaging now, kind of like wouldn't it be great if cocaine was just fine to have. The couple of times I had it, I liked it but never even considered trying to get it on my own. I think even if it was in grocery stores, I wouldn't partake. It just becomes obvious that substances that can do that are not meant to be used often.

[ladybird30]

Food as a drug - yes, if only we could have the effects without the after effects.

Low carb and calories - yes, contrary to what some lo carbers have told themselves, conservation of energy still applies no matter whether the calories come from carbs or fat.

[oolala53]

Yes, you do have to have a calorie deficit. Two things work in low carbers favor; protein is quite satiating, I'm finding especially without much carb, and apparently, the body will expend a few hundred extra calories a day when the calories are not coming from carb, for some reason. So somehow you have more going out. Plus if you get into ketosis, ketones are appetite suppressing, at least for the first year.

A fact jumped out at me today in listening to another video on insulin resistance today; muscles are the main storage areas of glucose. I have lost a lot of muscle over the years which might be part of the reason my blood glucose has been rising. There is just not as much muscle to shunt any carb intake into. Will this finally tip me into consistent heavy resistance work? Ok, right after this I am going to do a minimum of 4 minutes of slow heavy resistance work. I will supplement with some vigor, too. I did a long walk, earlier which is good, but will not increase muscle. I signed up for a fitness reminder that asks me every day how many minutes I put in the day before. It's gotten up and at it a few times, but I've still had some short days, too. But it's something. It makes a difference that I don't have to choose to go somewhere to report. It asks ME.

Though the scale isn't changing much, and I am not doing heavy resistance, I think I might be continuing to lose water perhaps from little pockets of inflammation? After four months of this, something seems to be kicking in. I don't even push right now to include the legumes or grains as often. I did find out that butternut squash doesn't raise it by very much, so that's fun to have sometimes.

I am actually not looking forward to having the slimness be a focus when I see my family for Thanksgiving, because they think that's why I do it, and I know at least two of them would like to be thinner, but not for health reasons, which I think is the reason they keep failing. It's such a torturous reason. I cannot finagle the blood sugar number, and avoiding those foods and replacing them with others has made a difference. There is so much incentive not to deviate from the plan. As I walk through grocery stores, I find myself remembering all the bargaining I did and the justifying of junky foods. "I can fit it in, I shouldn't be too strict, this is worth it because I enjoy it so much." Not worth it now! Plus knowing that it is better if I also don't snack or spread my eating out over too much time not just for habit's sake but because I want my system to recover. It is so much better for my healing to not have insulin circulating, and insulin can stay up longer than the blood glucose. This is what I am guessing was going on in my father's body for years before he developed diabetes and heart problems that led to a quintuple bypass. Maybe even the prostate and eventual bone cancer.

Unlike when I was starting and planning the future with No S, which I was never thinking I can hardly wait until this is over, I do not actually want to eat this way forever, but it will depend on whether I can recover some of my body's ability. And on that note, off to do some heavy resistance moves.

[ladybird30]

Thanks for the update, and well done on the exercise. Went for a walk in my beautiful local bush today - we have had more rain than usual, so full of golden everlasting daisies and Australian bluebells (not like the English ones).

[oolala53]

I haven't achieved a resistance exercise routine yet. And i guess I hadn't gotten the disappointing news about my blood work yet, either. My average blood glucose reading did not go down at all even though I have cut way back on the offending starches- which I miss terribly. But I can't see going back to including them when I KNOW the glucose surges after eating them. I tried a quarter cup of my favorite rye berries again and it went up to just below prediabetes range. Sigh. And they have the lowest glycemic index of just about all the grains! So I am being very cautious with starches.

My diet is pretty limited, but what can I say? I can't force my body to deal with the BG better overnight and I like life better not dickering over junk food. I eat mostly unprocessed food, unless you count cheese and yogurt as processed, though I am toying with limiting cheese after the first of the year. Sure, my surges are nothing compared to people who have much more wild readings than I do. I hope it won't offend anyone reading, though I have very few who tune in these days, but I shudder when I think of what kind of risk so many people are willing to live with. Too bad high blood sugar doesn't feel as bad as nausea. It can absolutely be killing you and you won't feel much until the stroke, the CVD, or whatever.

I bought a scale that supposedly measures not only weight but total bodyfat, water content, bone content (it says I have more than average for my age but that doesn't seem to stop me from having osteopoenia. I have more of porous bone. Goodie.) visceral fat (6% for me), subcutaneous fat and a few more things. I took a personality test about a month ago, one that is apparently well-regarded, and which measures true inborn traits (there is way they can test for that, meaning they are not very affected by early nurture). It was a little hard to take because I got some scores that would not be highly valued by this culture, shall we say. But I also felt a little exonerated in that some of the struggles I have had can be traced to these traits, in a way that makes me see that they were not terrible character defects, which I have judged myself for so often. I used to feel like I wanted so bad to exhibit more dispassion at appropriate times but would having an interchange that I wished I hadn't later. I"m not saying I have a pass on being a reasonable adult, but it helps me to see that I was legitimately dealing with a sense of discomfort from a combination of the traits not fitting the situation better that most of my peers were not grappling with. I have strong influences that make it easy to see why I can get so riled. Anyway, I brought up the test because it also said I was likely to be concerned with my health. Sometimes I feel I've spent way too much time on all this eating stuff, but learning that made me feel less disturbed by that, too. I'm not a self-absorbed brat; I'm following the impetus of a trait. There is probably some attachment to vanity as well, but that doesn't explain the whole thing, I hope.

Not that vanity didn't play a role at times. I did have plastic surgery at one point. I am really glad that I found No S after that because I learned later that people who have liposuction ofte develop more visceral fat, the dangerous kind. The body wants a certain level of fat and if you take the cells away from one spot, it will find somewhere else to deposit fat, especially if one gains weight later. I have been able to take off the weight since then, so I can hope that that compensatory effect has been mitigated. It would have been better if I had kept up regular exercise, as people who did exercise regularly did not gain visceral fat in the time period studied. Removing subcutaneous fat doesn't seem to help health at all.

[Kathleen]

Our third child finished college and is now living with us. She got into strength training after taking a class at college and recommended the MindPump beginner program for me. It is really good, although I had an “I’m old” moment. I was showing my husband one exercise and said it doesn’t even quality as an exercise: stand up from kneeling on one leg but don’t use your hands. No problem. Stupid exercise. Then I knelt on the right leg and could not get up!!! The program is exercises four times per day at home. I walk as well and do some Pilates but this exercise program is really helping to build muscle.

[oolala53]

That's intriguing, Kathleen. It's basically a one-legged lunge, or a one-legged lunge is like getting up from one knee! I remember I used to encourage my 80-ish mother just to get up from sitting in a chair eight or ten times a row, but she never did it. Now I need to heed my own advice. (I just took a break and did 8 at regular speed and 8 more faster. I can feel it! But I am thinking of a coach I have been watching recently who advocates working up to 100 repetitions of a few basic moves. I guess I need to up my expectations.) I do a balance exercise most days and even though it is more important that it works the brain-muscle connection, I can also feel it working the muscles. I can see why most senior citizens can get in trouble with falling because they never tax the system in a way that would be protective. I also used to challenge myself to get up off the ground without using my hands to help. I could do it but it took some rolling around. I just tried it and I can still do it. These are good movements to protect! Moshe Feldenkrais said not being able to get down to and up off the floor is a crucial human skill. It implies a host of other abilities.

My new body fat scale shows (yeah, it might not be accurate but it's not going to be THAT wrong) that over the years I have lost about 15 lbs. of muscle. That seems to be the trend in our society but we also know our society does not emphasize strength movements that might have preserved more of it. Apparently senior citizens CAN build muscle, but it is tougher for them. So what? It's been shown they can increase strength even without a lot more muscle, though I want that muscle because I think it will be key in getting back to eating more of my legumes and whole starches again with less of a rise in BG. I heard a longevity doctor who is a BEAST of an athlete say that when he was training really hard- like 6-hour bike rides- while also aiming at ketosis, he could eat in the neighborhood of 1500 calories of carb and stay in ketosis! Usually 200 calories is the max. His muscles were super factories. But I won't live like that. I haven't done even three months straight of about an hour of Urban Ranger intensity and 14 minutes of resistance most days, so imagining I might need a lot more of that at this point is, well, pointless. Though if I had a medical condition that could be alleviated by it, I might be willing to do a lot more. But let's see what the minimum does first. (And I will start with even lower minimums.)

[Kathleen]

oolala53,
You are way ahead of me with strength training! My daughter has a more advanced program and also we paid for her monthly gym membership fee in exchange for her serving as a personal trainer for me in making sure I am doing the exercises right. (We got a bargain!) It isn't all about weight.

My almost 96 year old mother now uses a walker and has trouble getting out of chairs. My former personal trainer (chased out of personal training due to the pandemic) worked with elderly people and told me the single most important thing for an older person to do is squats because they lose their independence if they cannot get out of chairs.

Getting old isn't fun!

[ladybird30]

My former personal trainer (chased out of personal training due to the pandemic) worked with elderly people and told me the single most important thing for an older person to do is squats

Kathleen -
I agree, squats not only build strength, they help protect the lower back and maintain hip and ankle flexibility (something I am lacking in) if done properly. I do squats as part of my exercises, as well as sometimes during the day when I want to get something off the ground instead of bending over. I intend to keep on doing them, because I can see the benefits in myself.

I tried out that kneeling to standing exercise, and it is not nothing.

Oolala, as far as exercise goes, something is better than nothing, and so are irregular bursts. Speaking from experience here.

[oolala53]

Thanks, Kathleen and Ladybird!

I have a bit of a cold so am not doing much. (Health care provider test results not back yet. Fingers crossed. Symptoms very mild.) Before this, though, I got a look at myself doing a squat and realized I was not going down far enough. I can do it fine against a wall and even hold 90 degrees for 90 seconds, but when I tried it in the middle of the room, I felt way too weak to hold the true position for even a second unless I was bent way over, with my back almost parallel to the ground. Oy. Well, when I am feeling more energetic, I will try again.

Is it really already more than halfway through January? The only habit I've stuck to is not playing online solitaire. But I'm glad to acknowledge that. Even though I've been sick only since Friday night, I feel off the hook for many of the rest of them. Just sounds too tiring to even think about them right now. Oh, I have been getting in minimum water most days, which is only a quart. I can up it later.

[oolala53]

Well, I tested positive for Covid. Damn. The good news is here on day 5 after the first symptoms I feel as if it is basically over. It was the easiest flu I have ever had. No fever, chills, minor achiness intermittently over the first 48 hours, few sniffles, vague sore throat, non-disruptive coughing. I would have to assume the vaccine did its job pretty well, though of course not developing it at all would have been better. But given my age group, I feel content. Though also in reality, nearly everybody recovers. I am glad I did not have to become more of a burden.

The bad news is I went to a public event Friday afternoon with a friend who lives with his 85-year-old father and they had had a scare already the week before, though both tested negative for that. I HATED having to tell my friend. I offered to drop off a home test I had for my friend, for whom getting a test is a real hassle, while his father had a much easier time the previous week. He said he would weigh his options.He's pretty careful and honest, and his father used to be a doctor, so I leave it up to them now. I can't change the past. Neither of us had done much socializing, so it seemed like pretty bad luck.

Also, I was inside for over an hour, though the place had controlled entry, there was a lot of space, and several air circulators in place. They did not ask for proof of vaccine, but did require masks. We all took our chances. I couldn't have contracted it there because there wasn't enough incubation time, but I hate to think someone could get sick or pass it on from me. But that is actually always a possibility if a person goes into public spaces. I have continued to shop for groceries, quick trips always, and had two workmen in the house, but each for short jobs, and masked.Oy vey. Should I have isolated myself completely this month of high Omicron rates? I guess you could say so, if I wanted 100% assurance. Perhaps if I had been even older, I would have.