Everyday Systems

[KCCC]

I initially wrote my perception of "No-S" phases on another thread. I've been thinking about it further and would like to expand on it and offer it for more discussion. This is from my perception as a long-time No-Ser, who struggled with diets/weight control before coming here. (You can read my testimonial page for the full story, if you don't already know it.)

To over-simplify a bit...

Phase I: Establishing habit
Description/Goal: Getting the N-days down. S-days are often still over the top, but the focus is building N-day habits, and getting them SOLID.
Suggested strategies (IMHO!):
1. Do a 21-day challenge and try to go that long following the No-S rules exactly.
2. If it's too hard to do them all at once, phase them in individually until they're all in place.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat until habits are solid - with some reflection/assessment on what's changing for you. Don't even think about Phase II until your N-day habits are in place.
4. Use the resources on this bb and website (the "Strictness" podcast - #13 - is the one I recommend most frequently at this stage).
Issues:
1. Some people gain weight initially because of "diet deprivation rebound." Address by: Time - get 21 days of No-S behind you, and see if the initial over-eating has subsided. Re-evaluate
2. Some people can't let go of "diet mentality" and have trouble with hunger because they're simply not eating enough at meals. Address by: adding food until a balance is reached!
Results: More normal food habits. A better understanding of how much you need to eat at mealtimes. Psychological relief from over-attention on food.

Phase II: S-day worries
Description/Goal: Over-the-top S-days don't "feel" good. Mondays are almost a relief. People are perhaps frustrated with their lack of control on S-days. The contrast between N and S begins to stand out. Ideally, the "binges" unconsciously get a bit smaller because the person is starting to recognize that they DON'T GIVE PLEASURE... that happens naturally in some cases, but not in others. People may start to get pickier about what they consider "s-worthy" treats.
Issues: "S-days gone wild" may affect weight loss, leading to frustration. If they don't resolve themselves naturally (which they do for many, but not all), they may need attention.
Strategies: Review the "S-days Gone Wild" podcast and associated sticky threads, and select 1-2 strategies that will work for you WITHOUT tipping you back into "diet deprivation mindset." Slow and steady wins the race here - you want to make little changes that don't make you feel that you're on a "diet" (which will end at some point). Focusing on making S-days pleasant and satisfying seems to help the most - it just takes a while to figure out that those words do not mean "over-full" or "frantic."

Phase III: Got it!
Description/Goal: N-days are solid, and S-days have become more moderate overall, but WITHOUT a sense of deprivation. Sometimes that happens through a gradual shift during a long "Phase II", sometimes by some conscious maintenance of N-day habits on S-days. It's a pretty comfortable place to be.
Issues: Minor in terms of habit - an occasional excessive S-day. May be some frustration if the person is still focused primarily on weight loss and reaches a plateau. May choose to tweak "what's on the plate" in terms of health or continuing weight-loss goals.
Strategies: Keep on keeping on, but with awareness. What's working well for you, and what might need attention? Where are you "backsliding" a bit, and need to tighten up?

Notes and Observations:
The trick is to go slowly enough that Phase III does NOT feel like deprivation. This evolution happens over time, but it NEEDS time. Only repeated experience will reassure the non-cognitive part of your nature ("the lizard brain" - or, as one book called it, your "inner piggie") that there WILL be food again and you will NOT starve!

Also, during this transition there may be a bit of emotional fallout for those who have been accustomed to using food to stuff down emotions or avoid facing issues. As one of the quotes goes "if hunger is not the problem, food is not the answer!" The good news is that as we identify and deal with actual problems, emotionally-driven eating is less of an issue. (I found it easier to deal with the eating first, then the emotions, rather than trying to handle the emotions first.) Developing better life skills is a nice side benefit to No-S!

Phase IV: Maintenance and fine-tuning for individual needs
Description/Goal: The person has been doing No-S for a while, and really truly has it down. But... there are issues that need addressing.
Issues:
1) There's a place where No_s is just out-of-sync with the general lifestyle. You go out every Wednesday with your friends, and would rather have an S-day then.
2) You've done it all perfectly, but your weight loss has totally stalled out for months. You're starting to wonder "is basic No-S enough for me?" CAVEAT: If you haven't gone through Phases I-2, stop reading now! More damage is done by people jumping here too early than anything else!
Strategies:
For both issues, review the "Mods and Tweaks" podcast trilogy, and thoughtfully implement whatever mod you think would help you, WITH attention to "how it's working for you." The podcasts spell it out better than I ever could - just follow the ideas.
For the second, specifically (and again, don't read this if you're not at this phase)...You won't know until you've done No-S for a while if "just" No-S is enough for you. Everyone's metabolism is different, and those who are male/have-a-lot-to-lose/younger/larger/active/ will lose easier than those who are female/close-to-healthy-weight/older/smaller/less-active. Life is not fair. IF you fit the second category more than the first, what will probably happen is that eventually, you'll stall out or gain on No-S. (For example, if you were a very overweight female, you might lose at first, then stall out. If you fit ALL the "harder" categories, you may gain.)
Does that mean No-S has failed you? I don't think so, as someone who fits most of the "harder" categories. You've taken off the top layer of excess by cutting snacking/sweets/seconds (remember, that's ALL many lucky people need), and made those changes into habit. You've learned how powerful habit is. Those changes allow you to focus more clearly on "what else could make a difference" while keeping in mind that "I want to be able to live with this." Here is where I think calorie counting makes sense - use what you know of nutrition and activity to make TINY, PAINLESS changes in your current habits. Yes, you might have to go beyond No-S, but No-S has given you a foundation from which to work that will enable you to reach your goal with less difficulty and more chance of success than you would have otherwise had.

So that's my bird's-eye view of the process, as lived and observed. Last bit of advice (repeated): Don't push too fast. You can't jump to Phase III/IV right off, and shouldn't try. Start with the N-days, and move from there.

[Starla]

Brilliant! I think if someone could read only one post on this board, this should be the post.

I believe I'm in Phase III right now, although if my plateau continues I may be pushed into Phase IV. I totally agree with your descriptions of the process, and appreciate your analyis of possible problems and solutions.

[KareBear]

I REALLY appreciate your perspective. It seems like the boat I am in (frustrated at not losing and thinking about dieting again, or giving up all together is premature). Deep down, I love this program because takes the obsession out of it and after 2 months I don't feel so focused on food.

I am really going to work on getting Phase 1 and 2 under my belt before doing anything else. I really feel good about the exercise phase though as I am working out now almost 5 days a week. So thats good. I do get caught up in the numbers and start to get down on myself. I have to tell myself 5 million times a day (maybe more) that I am loved by my family and friends and should love myself. This is the hardest part for me. I only have about 20 pounds to lose but it feels like 100.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post that. It was the lifeline I needed this morning.
_________________
Karen

Start/Current/Goal
160/ 160 /135

[sophiasapientia]

Excellent post!!! Sticky worthy, IMO.

ITA that there is a natural progression to No S that can't be rushed. I reckon I'm somewhere between Phase 3 and 4 now but definitely spent a good amount of time in Phase 1 and 2 -- and falling off the wagon -- first.
_________________
Restarted No S (3rd times a charm!) January 2010 at 145 lbs

[Doran]

Reinhard should give you some sort of commission for this. Very well said, and even as a newer No S'er, I can see how much wisdom there is in what you've written.


This bit really resonates for me:

[walkerlori]

Thank you for such an eloquent post!

I always enjoy your writing.

Lori
_________________
Habits are at first cobwebs, then cables.

[Sierra]

THANK YOU - This is very encouraging!!

I'm going to keep reminding myself it's all part of the learning curve and I'm only in Phase I.

Sierra

[leafy_greens]

[PetVet]

Great Post!
Thank you!

Cathy
_________________
Omnia vincit amor et nos cedamus amori
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker

[DaveMc]

Beautifully done! I'd second the idea that this should be a "sticky". 82.4% of the questions newcomers ask [warning: imaginary statistic] could be answered by pointing them at what you've written here.

[KCCC]

Thanks, everyone.

While this description is over-simplified, I do think it applies to about 82.4% of the time. (Using DaveMc's imaginary statistic as an internet citation - there's a lesson in that, I'm sure! At any rate, I'm quite entertained by it.)

Almost every phase that I've identified could be annotated further, but then the post would be too long. So, I'll leave it as is... despite noticing all the places where further editing would help. (As I always do in writing-made-public).

Glad if it helps anyone. And feel free to comment as well... anything that is a simplified description will have "but in THIS particular circumstance" exceptions. So, 17.6%* of the No-S forum members probably have a different story.

[* = another imaginary statistic, quite improperly extrapolated from prior one]

I think the core message is that it's an evolutionary process, and people are at different points in it. That, I strongly believe.

[reinhard]

KCCC, thank you again for another deeply thoughtful and helpful post. I've been hesitant to talk about "phases" because I like to emphasize the continuity of what one does on No-s (practicing maintenance from day 1), but what you've written is profoundly true and worth knowing, especially for beginners. Because it's not so much the behaviors that change with each phase (they do stay largely the same, plus or minus a minor tweak or two perhaps) but one's attitude towards those behaviors. And that attitude is very, very important. Most of the no-s related podcasts I've done have been about precisely this issue of attitude -- but they've been kind of ad hoc, I've never formalized the phases as you've done here.

[KCCC]

[DaveMc]

Let's talk timing -- in very approximate terms, because I think trying to pin these down to a specific schedule would be a very bad idea! At the same time, newcomers may wonder about how long we're talking about, here.

Very roughly, I'd say that each of these phases takes (at least) several months. You probably shouldn't expect to be approaching phase IV until you're about a year in to doing NoS. Your experience may vary, but if you think you're at phase IV after your second week, chances are you're rushing things.

[~reneew]

I totally agree with your observations! I have twice been solidly past the first phase and getting close to the third when Christmas season came and blew me out of the water. I am back to the first phase again and stuck. I really thank you for shining a light on the steps that I have been following. It encourages me tremendously! I think I'll paste it to my check-in so I won't loose it. Thanks again!
_________________
5 good days and 2 sorta crazy days are way better long term for me than 7 fairly crazy ones...
Please pray for me

[mrsj]

Thanks for your post KCC! It made me realize that I'm still at phase 1 and trying to do the other phases too soon. It really clarifies a lot for me.
I read phase 1 every morning so that it will really sink in. Thanks!
_________________
Nothing is impossible-only improbable.

[paprad]

KCCC, thank you. That is a hugely useful post.
_________________
getting there

[butterfly1000]

I've been trying to get it all perfect (unsuccessfully) and getting discouraged in the process. This is a great breakdown of the different phases. As recommended, I'm going to take one phase at a time and work on it before going to the next.

Question: How do you count the 21 day challenge, is it 21 days in a row that you treat as No-S, or do you still incorporate the S days in between?

[DaveMc]

[Grammy G]

KCCC, I was so happy to see this post as a sticky so I can go right to it! As you may have noticed,I have been offtrack for awhile. I seemed to have been OK while away for the winter but went crazy when I came home..go figure! Two months of ignoring what I knew I needed to do!! I got back to this site..saw your sticky and cheered! I always thought your entries spoke to me..and this one did too! I'm back.. I'm going to give Reneew's challenge a try... no.. I'm going to DO Reneew's challenge and I am going to see a lot of green on my calendar! I know this plan is the way I need to approach food and exercise and I will be reading your entries for inspiration! Keep up the great work
_________________
"If you realized how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think another negative thought."
Peace Pilgrim

[Cassie]

KCCC, just wanted to say thanks thanks thanks for a wonderful, helpful post. I read it yesterday & it really resonated with me...and then I read it to my partner who is helping me along on my NoS path. He found it excellent too. I think it's now clear to me that I'm still firmly in phase 1 (even though I'm more than a year into NoS) & I need to put at least 3 or 4 successful 21-days-with-no-reds under my belt before I move on to phase 2. Thanks again ever so much for posting this, makes it all very clear.
_________________
Goal: lose 14 kilos (about 30 pounds)
July 2010: have lost one and a half kilo (almost 3.5 pounds)
Goal: 10% of my body weight off (8.5 kilos / about 19 pounds) until May 2011

[KCCC]

Okay, I wasn't going to edit, but I really wanted to add in #4 under phase I, and clean up a bit of redundancy where I meant to move a sentence and copied it. Finally broke down and did those two things.

Also, I want to add that this is oversimplified in that the phases are not necessarily linear. I have some habits that are rock-solid, and others that I keep having to revisit and "re-boot."

Changes in circumstances may take you into a totally different phase. The key is recognizing where you are, and doing what you need to do... without trying to jump ahead so fast that you de-rail.

[andreamuse]

Late to the party, but wow, this is great! I'm really enjoying reading all these older posts! Thank you for all that!

[Cantab]

[quote="Cassie"]I think it's now clear to me that I'm still firmly in phase 1 (even though I'm more than a year into NoS) & I need to put at least 3 or 4 successful 21-days-with-no-reds under my belt before I move on to phase 2. Thanks again ever so much for posting this, makes it all very clear.[/quote]

I saw that your signature said that you had lost 1 pound. Is that in the past year? If it's taken you a year to lose a pound, I was thinking that the phrase under Phase III may apply: if you are small, female, and not too overweight, is it possible that your troubles with sticking to plain No S are due to (understandable, I would say) frustration at not seeing results?

If we are thinking about "how grandma ate", she generally ate a bit less than grandpa and sometimes stayed away from the foods regarded in the 1950s as traditionally fattening, like pasta, bread, rice, potatoes, etc. It is possible that even single servings can add up.

I've found that I can maintain weight on No S, but to lose weight I need to "eat clean": reasonable serving of protein, fat, veggies/fruit at each meal; starch in the morning and the meal after a workout; and fruit not too much more often than twice a day. It's not many rules, and it's still how grandma ate, and it does cut out I would guess about 300 calories a day that would be there if I ate starch at more meals.

[Cassie]

Hi Cantab

No, I haven't lost 1 pound in one year. I actually had quite the rollercoaster year! Did NoS for 2-3 months, got frustrated at very slow weight loss, went on an Atkins-type diet, lost about 8 kilos, which I promptly put back on (well almost all of it) once i re-introduced carbs in my diet. So I got a good reminder about the futility of diets and the awfulness of yo-yo dieting once again. I'm now back on NoS successfully (for the last couple of months) & have sworn my Atkins style diet is the last diet of the kind I ever go on. NoS it is for me from now on, indefinitely, and it actually feels like a great prospect .
_________________
Goal: lose 14 kilos (about 30 pounds)
July 2010: have lost one and a half kilo (almost 3.5 pounds)
Goal: 10% of my body weight off (8.5 kilos / about 19 pounds) until May 2011

[MerryKat]

KCCC - Thank you so much for taking the time to put this together.

Reading this, I think I have just figured out where I consistently go wrong (After 5 years, I can honestly say "Yes, I am a slow learner!") - each time I stick to Phase 1 very successfully and start lookinginto Phase 2 I get over enthusiastic and jump to Phase 4 to 'speed' things up. This always proves fatal and the rot sets in, followed by a pity party and a who is going to stop me snacking kind of attitude!
_________________
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Goals:
1. Morning Bible & Prayer time
2. Vanilla No S
3. Water (less coffee - makes me hungry)

[poetgirl]

It feels like Phase 1 will never end for me, but then again I'm new to this diet. I just want to be at Phase Three already, but patience is key.

April

[KCCC]

[poetgirl]

[r.jean]

I think I read this post early on, and it did not mean much. Now that I am nearing the end of month 3, I read it again. Wow! You have hit the nail on the head. These phases are very true to what I have been going through. I am still tweaking and still finding ways to improve but hope to get to that maintenance point some day.
_________________
The journey is the reward.

[used2bskinny]

[Junebug95]

This post was so beneficial to read! I am a newbie but I am so enjoying the freedom and space in my brain even the first days have brought me. I want to come back to this post again and again to remind myself that this is a "process"....when the going gets tough, as I expect it to sooner or later
Thanks KCCC!
_________________
"There are so many things in life we cannot do because of the fear of what Mrs. Harmon Andrews would say. ` 'Tis true, 'tis pity, and pity 'tis, 'tis true.' What delightful things we might do were it not for Mrs. Harmon Andrews!"
208.8/205.8/128?

[Sweetness]

Thanks for posting this, very helpful!

_________________
Patty

The person who really wants to do something finds a way; the other person finds an excuse. --author unknown

He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. --Benjamin Franklin

[GraceW]

This is a brilliant post. I needed the reminder that I can't jump to Phase III/IV right away. I now realize I'm firmly in Phase II right now and that's OKAY. Thank you for sharing this!

[BrightAngel]

Chiming in here to add my compliments to this post.
It is really GREAT and I think every No S person should read it.

Also, I just finished reading the No S book AGAIN (about the 12th time)
I still think that it is one of the best diet books I've every read,
and I've read hundreds of them as part of my dieting hobby.
It just doesn't get better than Reinhard's Habit Building concepts.

KCCC and I have had differences about the value and ease of calorie counting,
in that FOR ME, combining my food-logging-calorie-counting
together with working toward building No S Habits is beneficial.
HOWEVER, bear in mind that
I've never used No S WITHOUT calorie counting,
because I found No S in my weight-loss maintenance phase,
and at that time, I already had a solid and enjoyable habit
of successful calorie counting with my computer software journal.
My difficulty is successfully eating within my personal calorie limits .... forever.

Studies show that ... overall ... 95% of people who diet and lose weight, regain it all.
I am one of the successful 5%. I'm now starting the 8th year of maintaining a very large weight-loss.
An individualized variation of the No S Plan can be very valuable
for new people who need help with maintenance,
as No S can easily be combined with many ongoing weight-loss diet methods.
_________________
BrightAngel - http://www.diethobby.com
Height 5'0" - Sept 2004: 190 lbs - Jan 2013: 125 lbs