Calorie counting + No S

[SoATXGirl]

Howdy, I've had a love/hate relationship with calorie counting for a while now and am interested in how people on this board feel about it.

I know that a number of No-Essers count calories, but honestly, finding related posts with this bulletin board's search function is pretty hopeless.

Would any calorie-counting members mind sharing their methods of combining it with No S?

Also, if anyone thinks that calorie counting is something that should be avoided on No S, I'd like to hear about that, too.

Thanks in advance!

[BrightAngel]

Would any calorie-counting members mind sharing their methods of combining it with No S?

I am one of the people who support calorie-counting as a No S modification.
There are many Threads here in the General Discussion that discuss the opinions of various forum members.

I think you might benefit from reviewing
the individual Daily Check-in Threads of some No S forum members who support calorie counting.
Of course, one of them is me.
At present my Thread contains 8 pages, and much of that talks about calorie-counting.
My Thread contains comments of others, as well as my own comments,
and I believe it contains a great deal of helpful, and or, inspiring information.
In that Thread on page 7 (post of 10/7/10) is a copy of a post by KCCC,
a successful No S member who does not like calorie-counting,
and in that post, she provides a link to a prior discussion of the General Forum on that subject.

Here is the link to my most recent page.
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... &start=350

Another No S forum member who has achieved great success is Connorcream.
At present her Thread contains 6 pages, with many posts about calorie-counting.
Here is a link to her most recent page.
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic ... &start=250

Two other forum members who have recently made that modification to their No S plan,
are Parnetty, and TexArk. Links to their Threads are:
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=6814
http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=6881
I believe if you read the pages that are contained in these Threads
many of your questions about calorie-counting combined with No S will be answered,
and, you will find information that is both interesting and helpful.

[SoATXGirl]

Thank you, Bright Angel! I appreciate the links and will definitely check them out.

[nowornever83]

Hi SoATXGirl!

Funny you should post this because starting this week I am implementing calorie counting to NoS. Although the initial draw to No S was NOT having to calorie count (which I know has worked for many) I have found it does not work for me. I need to limit portions in order to get results. I love NoS for how it has helped me to control emotional eating and truly enjoy food, and I plan on sticking to the premise, but will be counting calories.

One way I plan to balance the two is to allow my S days as free from my calorie restrictions. I will still log what I eat in order to not go hog wild, but will not be super strict about staying within the boundaries of my calorie limit.

I have loved www.livestrong.com. It is a free site that will tell you your calorie goals based on age, height, weight, etc. and weekly targets for loss. It is extremely user friendly and has pretty much every brand and food in the database you could imagine, which makes calorie counting SO easy. I shop at Trader Joes often and it has all of their products and any other major grocery store, as well as any chain restaurant. AWESOME. I have also loved so see sodium, protein, and other intakes that I normally would have no idea what I consume. It also accounts for exercise, etc. You can find low-fat recipes, articles on exercise and nutrition, etc.

Anyway, good luck! Let me know if you have any other questions.

[SoATXGirl]

I'm still not sure about S Days. I'm afraid that, free from the N Day rules, I will allow myself to binge, even if it's on less calorically dense foods. In fact, that's what I've been doing all day today.

I wonder if I should stick to three meals a day on the weekends until I have my bingeing under control.

[funfuture]

This has been on my mind too - I certainly found NoS effective in the past, but I'm thinking of introducing some calorie restrictions.

I've just posted to Pernetty's thread - am wondering if the calorie counters also include S days - ie do you guys ease up on S days? or do you stick to the same restrictions all the time?

Am interested in the practicalities of managing calorie counting if I introduced it. I find that NoS - 3 meals a day - sticks pretty closely to the 1500 cals I'd be allowed anyway to lose weight - but I am wondering about weekends/S days...

[BrightAngel]

am wondering if the calorie counters also include S days - ie do you guys ease up on S days? or do you stick to the same restrictions all the time?

Am interested in the practicalities of managing calorie counting if I introduced it. I find that NoS - 3 meals a day - sticks pretty closely to the 1500 cals I'd be allowed anyway to lose weight - but I am wondering about weekends/S days...

I find that one of the most important things about Calorie Counting is ACCOUNTABILITY.
Knowledge of the caloric density of one's food often tends to ultimately result in different choices.
Adding the precision of calorie counting to the 1 plate rule increases the visibility of Excess.

Reinhard is not a calorie counter, and he tends to view success/failure
as totally single daily units.
This is very effective with regard to the No Snacks, No Sweets, No Seconds except SOMETIMES on S days.

I find the use of today's computer technology to be essential for calorie counting.
The HABIT part of calorie counting is the continual daily ENTRY of calories eaten
into the software food journal of choice.

Unless one chooses to ALWAYS eat exactly the same thing,
....which rarely happens...
The ADD-ON act of calorie counting involves making more conscious choices.
With a calorie modification to No S, one needs to have more of a "checkbook...budgeting viewpoint".
To follow No S, AND calorie count, instead of thinking of calorie units only in terms of days,
one needs to think of them averaging out to a larger unit.

Personally, I aim for a weekly calorie average, which means that
I consciously make my "N" days lower calorie to offset the normal higher calories "S" days.

[DaveMc]

Also, if anyone thinks that calorie counting is something that should be avoided on No S, I'd like to hear about that, too.

I don't think anyone would say that calorie counting is something that always needs to be avoided on NoS. What I usually say, when this comes up (which is fairly frequently), is that it depends on your personal reaction to the process of calorie counting. There are quite a few people, including (as you've seen above) BrightAngel, who find calorie counting to be an essential part of NoS, for them, and most importantly, who do not find that the process makes them feel so burdened that they're likely to stop NoS because of it. They report, instead, a positive benefit from knowing more detail about how much they're eating. I've also heard people report that if you *are* going to count calories, NoS makes it much easier, at least on N days: only three meals to be counted, rather than having to do it constantly.

Now, other people, and I'm one of them, feel that they couldn't keep up the process of calorie counting over the long term. I wouldn't be able to invest that level of attention and care into the process of eating, which I want to be something that I can just make relatively automatic. It's great that some people don't find calorie counting as burdensome as I do, but we each need to work with what fits for us -- as BrightAngel often notes, we're each "an experiment of one". So if the process of calorie counting, for *you*, ends up making NoS unsustainable, that's the only reason I'd recommend against it. If you don't find that this is the case for you, and you find that it's helpful for you, then go for it.

I've lost weight on NoS (about 20 pounds in a year) without calorie counting, but again, everyone is different. For me, using "the plate" as the only unit of measurement (plus a "don't be silly" rule about how much to heap on that plate -- the fact that three Big Macs would fit doesn't mean that this would be a good idea!) is part of the appeal of NoS. Others have reported that they can't get results without either more strict rules or explicit calorie counting, so again, you'd be best off figuring out which category you fall into. (Often smaller, older, more female, and less active people have trouble with weight loss without making some modifications.)

One standard piece of advice is to try the "vanilla" version of NoS for a while (months, if you can) before you start tinkering with it, so if you've just started, you might not want to leap into calorie counting right out of the gate. If you get results without it, and you've had the love/hate relationship with the process that you mention, then maybe you can do without it. If after a few months you find that the unmodified plan isn't working, you can change it at that point, and perhaps you'll find that adding calorie counting isn't a big problem for you -- once you've got the basic N day/S day habits well under control, making modifications is a lot easier.

[kccc]

Also, if anyone thinks that calorie counting is something that should be avoided on No S, I'd like to hear about that, too.

DaveMc gave a great answer, but I'll elaborate a bit from my perspective.

I can DO calorie-counting, but it's mentally not good for me. And I am far more successful if I don't.

Background: I lost weight years ago calorie-counting, and maintained for decades. When I gained after a late-life baby (having a baby combined with mid-life metabolic slowdown will put the pounds on!), I tried calorie-counting, and I tried Weight Watchers. And I lost... and gained... and lost... and gained... and couldn't bear it anymore.

For me, calorie counting wrecks my head. There's a constant chatter in the back of my mind "If I have this now, I can't have that later... this is bad, that is good... etc." That chatter warps my behavior. I just feel constantly deprived, and end up rebelling because I reach the limit of my ability to cope. It takes more attention than my life affords.

So, like DaveMc says, much depends on YOU. If you are a person that LIKES to count (like BrightAngel and a growing group), then it might work. If you are a diet refugee and it tips you back into "diet head," then calorie-counting is probably not a good idea for you... at least not at first.

I second DaveMc's recommendation to try Vanilla No-S for a month, then layer on the calorie-counting only if you need it. It seems to me that the folks who are most successful with calorie-counting got their No-S habits in place first. (There are exceptions, of course, BA being one of them.) And I still think that calorie-counting derails most people when begun too soon. (See "Phases of No-S" sticky, above.)

[oolala53]

I think if you look at the kinds of meals women eat when keeping to low calories, the majority eat relatively small portions of dense foods. (men are often different, so I limit my remarks to women.) Some eat a lot of veggies and some don't. It seems the shorter ones need to be extra careful about just how small those portions are. The counters certainly don't eat more than a plate of food at a time and they usually don't fill a plate with dense food. (Many non-calorie counters don't continue to fill their plates, either. They say they realize they are satisfied with less food over time and adjust accordingly. I get the sense that those who turn to calorie counting didn't adjust as time went on, but I may be wrong.) I think most of the calorie counters keep track on weekends, too, but they vary in how much leeway they give themselves.

What it all boils down to is how can you induce yourself to eat little enough to have a calorie deficit-- and for some that means counting them-- and enough to feel happy enough and satisfied with how much you eat. I've found on N days that by having certain proportions of food types for my meals, I end up keeping my calorie count down to deficit without having to keep track every day. I'm happy with those meals forever. I have not found the mindset to do this on the weekends, and so far, I do feel I need some of the "let go" of weekends to stay on track the rest of the time. But I am getting closer all the time to being willing to make my weekends look more like S days, and I'm pretty sure that will get the next 10-15 lbs. off. I won't be svelte then, but I will be in the lightest 25% for my height and same-age peers.

Some of the people who calorie count like being in even lighter categories. One of them is now lighter than 98% of women in her group. If it is important enough for someone to get where she wants to be, she will find a way, whether it's by being scrupulously honest about how much food she really needs to stay satisfied by monitoring her true hunger, or by finding the calorie count that keeps her there. She will also have to determine how much monitoring she is willing to live with. I am also on the Sparkpeople site, lurking on teams devoted to maintenance. Some of the women there are completely at peace with how much they need to eat and exercise to stay where they are. They don't long for things they can't have, or fear any eating venues. (They remind me of the successful Vanilla No S-ers.) Some have to talk themselves into it a lot. Others you can tell have to fret and fear food. At this point, I am willing to aim only at the first set. I still believe I can get there without strict calorie counting. I may incorporate calorie counting on weekends only in 2011 as the mod for that year. I am 100% sure that the discipline of No S so far is what will make that possible for me.

As others have said, give yourself a chance to see what happens on Vanilla No S. I'd say give it three months. Then you may want to continue as is, make S-day mods, or incorporate calorie counting. No one is going to force you to do anything!

The calorie counters here tend to keep most of their discussions to their individual threads, unless a question like this comes up. I will say I am very glad they do that because I come to No S because of its different orientation. I can choose to check in with those threads or not. There are many sites on the web where members can share calorie-counting stories galore freely and openly 24/7. I choose to stick with forums devoted to finding a way to end the compulsion to overeat without strict calorie counting. I hope you find what works for you soon.

[funfuture]

THanks everyone for the comments - I know I didn't post the original question, but I am interested in your answers. I think, for me, I'll just stick to the vanilla No-S, but monitor my S days. I had a weird and wild S day on Saturday and I'm wondering if it was because I was reacting to the very idea of calorie counting and all that attention on restriction of food.

What I like about NoS is that i can leave the obsession with food behind, while staying reasonably satisfied. Having successfully done NoS before (to a point - I achieved half my intended weight loss - about 20lbs), what I don't want to do is fall back into a pattern of eating lightly during the week and then extra-heavily on weekends, which is how I ended up. I'd like some consistency in my eating across the week. I'll put some thought into mods (or psych tricks??) that might help me do that. Any suggestions are welcome!

[kccc]

FunFuture, I had trouble with that for a while too. What helped me the most was to come up with POSITIVE goals (as opposed to restrictive ones) for the weekends.

Mine were...
Drink water (I tend to forget on weekends)
Eat 3 regular meals, with veggies
Plan 1-2 extra-special treats

I also chose some modifications on HOW I ate (no standing at the pantry!). But I was careful not to restrict WHAT I ate, because that would rebound on me.

Reinhard's podcast on "S-days gone wild" and the resulting thread was helpful in figuring those strategies out.

[funfuture]

Thanks KCCC - much appreciated. I think I'll be ok this time around. I actually don't like the idea of eating too much these days. My metabolism now I'm over 50 just can't take it...i guess in its way, that's a good thing.

[KJ]

My attitude to just about everything is whatever works for you, just do it. This is my personal opinion and not intended to offend - I have been vanilla nos for 18 months and dropped around 30lbs. I shovelglove and now walk wherever I can instead of using my car. I do no formal exercise other than shovelglove. That said, I see no point in doing nos AND counting calories. For me, the genius in Reinhards philosophy is its simplicity. I am never counting a calorie again, and definitely never setting foot inside a gym again. I work long hours, study part time and have 4 children, and have slowly but surely reversed years of bad living. Good luck everyone, and thank you Reinhard, you are a legend.

[wosnes]

I agree with K3. I've never been a calorie counter and don't intend to start now. Likewise, I've never been a gym-goer and don't intend to start that, either.

Because of this thread, I wondered when calorie-counting became popular. I found this at WebMD.

I really don't remember hearing much about calories until the 1960s and it's increased since then.

[reinhard]

I'm not crazy about counting calories, but it's certainly compatible with no-s (most diets are).

I know that a number of No-Essers count calories, but honestly, finding related posts with this bulletin board's search function is pretty hopeless.

Yeah, it does kind of stink... I've been meaning to upgrade (probably to phpbb 3) for months now, but I need to find a solid few hours to budget for working out all the kinks (and rolling back just in case something goes wrong).

In the meantime, you can search the site using google. It's a better search in terms of relevance etc., but for some reason the whole site doesn't get indexed, so it's missing some posts. I guess I should put that on my list of things to look into as well, since I'm pretty sure there are ways to fix that (sitemap pages, etc).

Main search page:

http://everydaysystems.com/search/

Search results for "counting calories"



Reinhard

[Jane1721]

Because of this thread, I wondered when calorie-counting became popular. I found this at WebMD.

I really don't remember hearing much about calories until the 1960s and it's increased since then.

I don't know when calorie counting became popular, but I have a darling little book called "Diet and Health with Key to Calories" by Lulu Hunt Peters with a copyright date of 1924 (I believe the first edition was 1918). It is supposedly the first diet book, and she tells you what calories are and how to count them.

[jellybeans01]

I used to be an avid points counter, but no more! It for me personally it got very old. I will tell you that what worked for me is smaller plates. I have a 9 inch plate and I use it for my meals. It naturally keeps portions in control and if I follow no s with this modification I can keep in the 120's which is what I was during my WW.

[sidney202]

SoATXGirl,

Thank you so much for posting your question. I am a brand spanking No-s newbie (Day 2) and I too was struggling with the inclination to count or not to count.

After giving this considerable thought, I have determined not to count, and this is why: I have determined that my desire to count comes from my diet-mentality mind that says dieting means deprivation and pain. I want to minimize that pain, so naturally I see counting calories as a pathway to faster weight loss which minimizing the time "on the diet" and therefore minimizing the pain as well. But then I remember-- following No-S is enjoyable--it doesn't result in deprivation and pain. And since it's not painful, I have no need to artifically speed up the process. With this realization, my diet-mind quiets down, and I choose not to count. I must admit, I am very new to this, so I have had this very conversation with myself at every single one of my (whopping) four No-S meals so far.

Another reason I am choosing not to count is I suspect my sense of freedom on this plan might diminish a bit if I were to count. In fact, even the thought that calorie counting might somehow be verboten diminishes my feeling of freedom just a little bit. This newbie was irresistably pulled to the idea that, as long as you "No-S" (pardon the use of No-S as a verb) appropriately, you are free to experiment, modify and grow as you learn about your body and yourself.

So maybe go ahead and count for a while....if it starts not working for you on any level, don't count for a while and see how that goes. Growth is allowed!

Thanks for bringing up this topic and good luck, whatever you choose.

I am now headed to lunch--2 chili cheese dogs with a salad!

[sophiasapientia]

The calorie counters here tend to keep most of their discussions to their individual threads, unless a question like this comes up. I will say I am very glad they do that because I come to No S because of its different orientation. I can choose to check in with those threads or not. There are many sites on the web where members can share calorie-counting stories galore freely and openly 24/7. I choose to stick with forums devoted to finding a way to end the compulsion to overeat without strict calorie counting. I hope you find what works for you soon.

I agree with Oolala that I appreciate that most of calorie counting talk is kept to individual threads. I too am of the opinion that there are countless forums geared toward calorie counting and support for calorie counters. But this is the only active No S support forum that I'm aware of and I appreciate having a space for those of us who, for whatever reason, are opting not to count calories and giving this No S journey a go.