Important Information about Fat

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:55 pm

I believe that EVERY No S member could benefit
from the knowledge contained in this article.

Even if a No S member does not have to personally deal with this difficulty,
it could help provide him/her with compassion and understanding
toward the other No S members to whom it specifically applies.

http://www.diethobby.com/blog.php?ax=v&nid=732

emmay · Post by **emmay** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:12 pm

Wow! What an interesting article.
Thanks BrightAngel

eschano · Post by **eschano** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:41 am

Hi BrightAngel,

it was interesting to read your article. However, with respect - as I greatly appreciate your advice and as a non-native speaker I actually mean with respect- it seems to go against some of the pillars of NoS (that it becomes a habit, so you don't have to keep "restricting yourself all the time, cheat days, ...) and against some of the great testimonials on this board where people seem to have kept it off without further restrictions to NoS. 3 meals a day doesn't seem to be more of a restriction than any of my naturally skinny friends eat. They really don't eat that much more than me right now while I'm losing. And on NoS we do have cheat days.

So maybe your article is mainly about people who have lost weight on a crash diet? Am I missing the point?
In my experience of my own journey so far I'm neither overly restricting myself (which I believe is the brilliance of this plan) nor missing out on any treats. I might never become model thin like this but I'll never have to be a crazy calorie counting person obsessed with food neither as I'm not missing anything now while I am losing weight (which again is incredible) so I assume once I hit bottom (wherever that is) I won't start gaining assuming my diet stays the same as it is now - NoS without any further mods, calorie counting, watching the nutrients of my food or any of that.

I'd be interested to know what you think.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:30 pm

eschano wrote: So maybe your article is mainly about people who have lost weight on a crash diet? Am I missing the point?

I read the article yesterday and don't remember a lot of it now, but I thought there was a lot of info missing. Interesting, but discouraging.

TexArk · Post by **TexArk** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:31 pm

eschano,
What BrightAngel wants others to see is that this is absolutely true for some people, not everyone. We must refrain from insisting that our experience is true for all. I am one of those that fits the description of the person who has been obese and after years must struggle to maintain.

I follow NoS but the first 2 years I gained 30 lbs and that was with perfect N Days. I started tracking my calories 2 years ago at 204 lbs and found that I will gain if I eat over 1200 calories daily. Every time I have stopped counting (even though I am staying with 3 small plates, no sweets, seconds, no snacks), the weight gradually creeps up. Believe me, most of us have tried over and over to become "normal" eaters and develop habits that are automatic. I am happy if that works for you.

I have raised my weight goal to the highest BMI and I am working hard to get about 12 pounds off now. In order to do that I need to stay between 1000-1200 calories, exercise daily and still count the calories on S Days. I can go up to 1400 calories on S Days as long as I average out for the week about 1100.

So for those of you who do not need to count, good for you. But please try a little understanding for those that must. It is not that we are all obsessive compulsive; it is necessary. I think this article shows that the formerly obese have different bodies than a person of the same weight normally. Also read BrightAngel's article on DietHobbty on the National Weight Registry success stories and the diligence and daily exercise that has worked for their maintenance. (fat trap and set point are the two articles)

Again, all this focus may not be necessary for everyone. But it is true for me and I am not fighting this truth any more. Just as a diabetic or a person with Crohn's has to accept the fact that she must monitor her food, so must I.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:37 pm

eschano wrote:Hi BrightAngel,
it was interesting to read your article. http://www.diethobby.com/blog.php?ax=v&nid=732
-- it seems to go against some of the pillars of NoS.
3 meals a day doesn't seem to be more of a restriction than any of my naturally skinny friends eat.
They really don't eat that much more than me right now while I'm losing.

So maybe your article is mainly about people who have lost weight on a crash diet?
Am I missing the point?

I'd be interested to know what you think.

eschano,
I support the No S concepts, and have been here for almost 5 years.
This article is not FOR or AGAINST any one particular diet,
... however, it is supportive of No S concepts, and is right in line with Reinhard's book,
especially Reinhard's concepts of doing the BEHAVIOR,
then accepting whatever weight RESULTS from it ....

Learning about the way one's own biology influences us with regard to food and weight issues
helps make sense out of our dieting struggles, and provides us
with a better understanding of the challenges that many overweight / obese people face.

Reading the article shows that people have different biologies,
and we are not all the same. There are lean people who have no difficulty,
there are obese, and reduced obese people who have great difficulty,
and there are many people whose bodies operate between those two areas of difficulty.

Here at No S, people come in all types.
Everyone isn't just like me, and everyone isn't just like you.
We all need to be understanding and compassionate ..
both of ourselves, AND of those who are different from ourselves.

The article mentions many, many different diets and ways-of-eating.
Some diets bring fast weight-loss and some slow weight-loss.
My own personal information can be found in on DietHobby (click link in my signature) .
See ABOUT ME under RESOURCES.

To Summarize, between 271 lbs and 160 lbs, (20 years ago) my own personal weight-loss
averaged about 2 lbs a week while averaging around 500-800 daily calories.
and then about 10 years later, between 190 lbs and my current goal weight range ...
(I am very short, only 5'0" and now weigh at the top of the "normal" weight range)
... my average weight-loss was about 1 lb per week - averaging 1220 daily calories.

I have been recording all my food in a computer food journal every day, for the past 8 year period.
In the past 7 years in my goal weight range, any weight-loss I've accomplished
during periods of dieting for weight-loss, has averaged LESS than 1/4 lb a week.
For the past four years, I've been eating an average of about 1050 daily calories
While doing this, my weight has crept up from the 112-115 range to the 122-125 range, for a 10 lb weight-gain.

There are no answers Set in Stone for Everyone.
The article talks about research that has already been done,
and research is still ongoing.

It could be that after fast weight-loss the body operates differently than after slow weight-loss.
At present, most Experts think this is NOT true, but there is ongoing research to test that issue out.

The quote below deals with the issue of "fast" weight loss vs. "slow" weight loss.

"One question many researchers think about is
whether losing weight more slowly would make it more sustainable
than the fast weight loss often used in scientific studies.
Leibel says the pace of weight loss is unlikely to make a difference,
because the bodyâ€™s warning system is based solely on how much fat a person loses,
not how quickly he or she loses it.
Even so, Proietto is now conducting a study using a slower weight-loss method
and following dieters for three years instead of one.

Given how hard it is to lose weight, itâ€™s clear, from a public-health standpoint,
that resources would best be focused on preventing weight gain.

The last line of this quote reminds me of things that Reinhard has repeatedly said
both here on the forum, and in his book about establishing Habits,
and eating in moderation, then accepting the weight that follows.

eschano · Post by **eschano** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:33 am

Hi BrightAngel, thanks for clarifying some points in this.

I'm still not convinced about the fact that it changes people's bodies permanently, I'm not sure if there was enough research done and there is very little out there short of sickness that permanently alters our bodies and am highly suspicious of any research that says so. I worked in academia for a long time and know that it's always possible to find research to fit your thesis (and I mean those researchers, not you). But I think I understand your article a little better after your comment. Unfortunately, I still have to respectfully disagree as it strikes me as a little too deterministic. I find other reasons for the reoccurring weight gain much more likely.

TexArk: your point is exactly why I brought my experience into it. Not to say everyone is like me but instead to demonstrate that there are clearly exceptions. I think you misunderstood my comment. I'm not taking value away from your experience at all. The way the article was written I did not get the feeling that this is something that happens to some people but something that happens to everyone in varying degrees.

I've never argued with anyone before on these boards but I think it's important to be able to respectfully disagree with research that strikes me at the very least as incomplete. Especially in a world where research findings in this area are changing completely every few years. I would not be surprised if some research should surface that says the opposite with proof.

I do follow BrightAngel's advice and find her articles always extremely interesting, I just don't agree with this particular one.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:26 pm

eschano wrote:Hi BrightAngel, thanks for clarifying some points in this.

I'm still not convinced about the fact that it changes people's bodies permanently, I'm not sure if there was enough research done and there is very little out there short of sickness that permanently alters our bodies and am highly suspicious of any research that says so. I worked in academia for a long time and know that it's always possible to find research to fit your thesis (and I mean those researchers, not you).

eschano,
I enjoy reading different points of view as part of my own "dieting hobby",
and often post interesting articles of others at my website, DietHobby.
In doing that I frequently use the word "THEORY"... which of course, means ...

"a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something"

When I experience something personally, I wonder about it,
and when I read an interesting article about it, I often share it.
I may agree or disagree with a Theory that I share,
but what is important to me, is that people consider it.

People have a natural specific number of fat cells.
Every cell has a function, and works to survive.
When a fat cell gets too full, it divides, and becomes two fat cells.
This is a permanent change.
No matter how much weight one loses, the process doesn't reverse itself.

At this time, the Theory of Set Point is one accepted by many experts,
... which ... of course .... can always change...
To better understand how fat cells apply in the Set Point Theory, click and read:
http://www.diethobby.com/blog.php?ax=v&nid=730

eschano · Post by **eschano** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:16 pm

BrightAngel wrote: I enjoy reading different points of view as part of my own "dieting hobby"

I really get that about you and that's why I very much enjoy reading your articles. Just wanted any newbie who walzes in here to understand there's many different opinions.

Always interested in hearing different things but I guess I'm also interested in discussing them, even if it means we disagree. Either way: Many thanks for sharing.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:56 am

I know I consistently eat less now after having lost 40 lbs. to get to and stay at this weight than I did when I weighed it the first time, (though I have to say it doesn't feel hard to do- I think it is because I wasn't always that heavy, though I've never been very thin and am not now.) I think it makes perfect sense that a person who was never thin in the first place and then became thin would likely have to eat less to stay thin than a person of comparable height and build who has never been heavy. Studies have definitely shown that SOME thin people have to eat a tremendous number of calories to gain any weight or to feel really full.

In addition to this, a previous post on this board cited an article that showed that a person would have to maintain a deficit of 100 calories a day for THREE YEARS in order to stabilize a weight loss of 10 lbs. By the straight calorie theory, it should happen after 350 days, or a bit less than a year, for a deficit of 35,000 calories. But the researcher implied it would actually take a deficit of 109,500 calories to stabilize the 10 lb. loss. For 10 lbs., people! So if a person ate the 109,500 sooner so that she lost weight faster, the body would fight tremendously to stabilize at only a 10 lb. loss even though theoretically she should have lost 31 lbs. Can you imagine the psychological and biological control it would have to take for a person to live in deficits of multiples of 109,500 calories in order to stabilize weight loss in the many multiples of 10?

This is not saying that all is lost but that for SOME people, it's quite understandable that it's a huge struggle. I certainly believe that BrightAngel has to (and is willing to) try harder than I do to stay at a pleasing weight for her. I have my slip ups but I consider my eating (and not eating) easy and enjoyable most of the time. I don't know if that would be true if I had always been very heavy and then got to my present weight.

eschano · Post by **eschano** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:19 am

Hi Oolala,

That's interesting. So do you have to have any further restrictions than NoS in order to maintain your NoS success?

Do you think that if you'd lose at a much slower pace - say lose 2 pounds, maintain for a month or two, then repeat - that wouldn't be the case to the same extend?

It's just that I've always been overweight (although never obese) for the past 20 years. Now I'm doing NoS, have reached my goal of a normal weight range and just sticking to my habits it seems like I am still losing. So do you suggest that at some point rather than plateau I will suddenly start gaining it all back everything else staying equal. (I pray that your answer is no to that one).

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:00 pm

No, I don;t think you'll gain it back. Maybe you've just been overeating for a long time and you're just naturally in the deficit that releases fat from your body. Plus your goal was probably not your body's natural weight. If you're eating happily, just keep going. Your body will find its place to stabilize. It might do it soon or later. But if you feel satisfied and happy with your meals and extras on S day, why change?

For me, it doesn't really matter because I'm just eating how I'm going to eat forever, though if my appetite declines or I get even tamer on S days, I may lose. The weight is not the goal for me. Eating for vitality and expanding my life is the goal.

eschano · Post by **eschano** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:45 pm

Thanks Oolala! Sounds heartening.