Everyday Systems

About a week ago wosnes sent me the link to the No-S site. We "met" on another diet related (let's just say we're both recovering vegans...) discussion forum and have grown a friendship outside of that. When she sent me the link she said she thought this way of life would resonate with me, and as per usual, she was right.

I've spent hours and hours and hours reading not only the information about the plan but Reinhard's podcast transcripts as well as a majority of the previous posts on the bulletin board. Have you ever had the experience of finding something you thought was lost forever? Well, I think it's similar to what I felt--a huge sense of relief mixed with joy and gratitude. I recognized myself in so much of what I read, and it felt like finally finding what I've been searching for most of my life.

If I had to sum my situation up in one sentence it would be this: I'm a menopausal diabetic with an eating disorder. Life does present its challenges these days. I have used food in wacked out ways since childhood--it was my coping tool in a chaotic environment--it helped me feel safe and comfortable. Then in my college days I discovered bulimia. So I have spent all of my adult life being at odds with my body--often to the point where I really didn't think I could stand to be inside of it anymore. I've wasted far too much time and emotional energy thinking about food, shopping for diets I sometimes managed to stay on for only a few hours, preparing stuff I didn't any more want to eat than I wanted to go to the dentist on my way to prison, being ashamed of myself for my inability to be normal.

A couple of years ago I attended 12 Step meetings, and my particular brand of abstinence was to eat three meals a day with nothing in between. After doing this for a time, something magical began to happen--the internal chatter stopped, and I began to experience sanity and serenity surrounding food and being inside my skin. And lo and behold, I also lost weight. I don't know why (and the why probably isn't even important), but I didn't stick with this one thing that I thought had finally settled my lifelong struggle...I opted to go back to the craziness.

But here I am today. I'm l-o-n-g-i-n-g to regain my serenity--I'd take that over weight loss any day of the week. I know beyond a shadow of doubt aligning my life with No-S is the best thing I can do for myself--physically, emotionally and spiritually. And I've decided to give myself the grace to begin...again.

I am grateful to be here and to have faithful companions on this part of the journey. I know I'll need encouragement, and I hope I can also give support along the way. Oh, and I want to express my thankfulness to Reinhard.

I've been looking for you! Welcome!

Welcome, Kwag!

No S is, indeed, the sanest "diet" I've ever been on. As far as I'm concerned, it's not so much losing weight that's important to me (though that wouldn't be so bad in itself ) but the relief of not having to be compulsive about eating 5 out of 7 days a week.

But I won't tell you that it's easy. I mean, eating the meals and not snacking is easy, but letting go of the deeeeeeep compulsion to (let's call a spade a spade) hurt myself with food has not been easy. But it's worth it. There was something that happened when I wrote "success" in my log one day when I realized that success wasn't about the chub and how much I weigh, but in having done something hard, successfully. I found myself much less concerned with the chub!

I don't feel like that every day, mind you, and that's why it's been a struggle. But overall, I've found some peace here and I hope that you can too!

zoolina

Welcome!

I know what you mean about the internal chatter. My older sister is doing Weight Watchers right now. She's been doing it for years, on and off, and uses it to take her weight back down when it starts to creep too high. Well, this week she's going on and on about how great it is and how well it works, and that started my mind to spinning and thinking I want FAST results, even though I'm seeing results already from doing No S for just a few weeks.

I had to catch myself and really tell myself firmly that No S is superior to WW or any other diet program. When I used to do WW I'd spend all day obsessing about food. I'd wake up in the morning with a feeling of euphoria over how my points were back to zero for the day. By nighttime I'd be longing for morning so I could eat again. NOT healthy at all.

You're so right about the serenity that comes from having that 'chatter' turned off. No S does do that. The rules are so clearly defined. There's no fudging or blurring of the lines. It's so calming to already know what your limits are and that they don't change.

Thanks for joining us and for posting such a thoughtful, thought-provoking first post!

Iregirl,

How did you get rid of the chatter? I fight it all day long, almost every day. I've only been ding no-s for 6 weeks, but I have to say I yearn for the time when the chatter quiets and I can just rely on habit and not willpower to get me through the eating day.

Z.

zoolina wrote:Iregirl,

How did you get rid of the chatter? I fight it all day long, almost every day. I've only been ding no-s for 6 weeks, but I have to say I yearn for the time when the chatter quiets and I can just rely on habit and not willpower to get me through the eating day.

Z.

Zoolina, I admit that the 'chatter' isn't turned off 100% all of the time, but I differentiate the kind of thinking I did on WW from the thinking I do on No S. The WW thinking was constant and desperate, the No S thinking only comes into play when I realize I'm craving a snack, then remember I can't have one.

On WW all I ever did was go over and over in my mind how many points I had left for the day, what I could budget into those points, how I could trade off eating a chicken breast for that extra can of Coke if I really wanted it, et cetera. Oh, the complicated bartering that went on in my head if I wanted to snack plus eat dinner plus have another snack before bed when all I had left for the day was seven points.

On No S I simply know that I can eat a filling and delicious chicken dinner, eat no snacks and then have that Coke on my S days. It doesn't necessarily take away cravings or even the petulance, but it does take away the internal bargaining. I just know I can't have that Coke, so it's much less of an issue and I'm not constantly running on the hamster wheel of my food allowances.

I hope it gets easier for you soon! I'm sure it will. After all; some of us (not necessarily you) have been indulging in 'bad' behaviours for all of our adult lives. It might take more than 21 days for us to get over it, as it were.

Hi Kwag!

No-S is good stuff--I wish you luck!

I'd like to read more about this "reformed vegan" thing if you have time.

--david

Welcome Kwag!

I'm l-o-n-g-i-n-g to regain my serenity--I'd take that over weight loss any day of the week.

Well, you sure struck a chord with me! I sometimes think that I would trade any weight loss for never feeling that over-stuffed sick tummy ever again. I'm hopeful that No-S can deliver both.

~Mada

Thanks to all for being so welcoming--I really do appreciate it.

Here's the saga of me being a recovering vegan...it wasn't your average vegan, either--it was a NO ADDED FAT vegan! Let me begin by saying I never had any moral objections to animal products--I did this strictly for health reasons. I read a book written by a physician who said I could eat to the satisfaction of my appetite while losing 10-15 pounds a month with the added bonus of lowering my cholesterol and stabalizing my blood sugar levels. This was probably technically true...but this way of eating was just too far out of the realm of normal for me to ever really feel all the way comfortable with it. And I knew there was no way in the world I could do it forevermore.

I tried so hard to change my way of life and to believe I could adhere to this program (in the interest of my health, don't ya know?!). Even though I could eat as much and as often as I wanted, eating became quite a hassle. At first everything seemed so unfamiliar--it took me a while to find some standby things to eat. It was almost impossible to do this plan in a restaurant or ANY social situation. I believe, for me, it set up the situation to be obsessed by food--I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering what I was going to eat, shopping for food, preparing food (because NO convenient/ready-made food ever fit what was allowed...), washing dishes, eating food I never found to be satisfying, feeling bloaty yet still wanting to eat, having that caged animal feeling, and then ultimately admitting to myself I simply did not want to do this and feeling bad about my own self as a human being.

I was telling wosnes that I think this plan has caused me to have some food phobia that I'll have to work through while on No-S. There are certain foods I associate with being harmful--because I heard and read about it over and over and over again on that message forum. Cheese is just one example--even though I like it in theory, I find myself still avoiding it in reality. I've decided to start experimenting with some of these foods--to allow myself to eat them and then just wait and see how they make me FEEL (I'll not even think about what they might be doing to my arteries or blood sugar levels or any of that other stuff). I'm going to make manicotti tomorrow which is stuffed with ricotta cheese and has other Italian cheese sprinkled on top. We'll see...

Welcome, Kwag!

No-s combines the clear boundaries of 12 step type programs with sustainable and pleasant moderation. It's got the "good hardness" of abstinence without the "bad hardness." It uses "hardness" as a tool to get to moderate normalcy, not as a template for what you should become. You get firm rules without stamping the last breath of life out of you.

Reinhard

Kwag said:

I was telling wosnes that I think this plan has caused me to have some food phobia that I'll have to work through while on No-S. There are certain foods I associate with being harmful--because I heard and read about it over and over and over again on that message forum.

I followed the same program also for health reasons. When Kwag told me about her fears, my response to her was "welcome to the club." I have the same phobia.

While on the one hand I never completely believed that it was necessary to eliminate animal products and added fats, on the other I'm afraid that if I eat them routinely, my arteries will clog up and I will die. Since my problem is heart disease and there is a direct correlation between the consumption of saturated fats found in animal products and atherosclerosis, there's some cause for concern on my part.

Unfortunately, I have some good reasons to have the phobia. While I never followed that program 100%, I did follow it most of the time for the better part of 10 years. There was a period of time over a year ago when I went back to what would be considered a "normal" diet. It was an unconscious reaction to a stressful work situation. I paid for it and it's safe to say that my life has changed because of it.

You might wonder why I didn't scurry back to the diet that kept me healthy for 10 years. It's really pretty simple: While that way of eating worked for my health, it never worked well in my life.

I figured there had to be a balance between what kept me healthy physically and what satisfied my soul, not to mention being easy to follow in daily life!

So while I need to be more aware of the animal products and added fats in my diet than the average Jane or Joe, I have to remind myself that unless I let them become the focus of my diet, they aren't going to instantly kill me. Honestly, I can READ recipes or menus and start to feel the fear creeping up on me.

I have a book called The Art of Getting Well by David Spero, R.N., which is about living with chronic disease. He says one of the wisest things I've read about diet/eating (and believe me, I've read A LOT): In Healthy Living class and in my practice, we discourage dieting. Dieting promotes a tense relationship with food that makes eating a high-stress experience -- and that frame of mind doesn't do anyone any good. Instead, we want to tune in to our bodies and give them what they need. We want to eat a balance of grains, fruits, vegetables, and proteins, with a little fat and treats thrown in, but we can work towards that goal slowly. It's better to splurge once in a while on cake or ribs than to approach every meal as a battleground. We want to enjoy our food, not fight it.

Over the past year I've learned to pay attention to my body and how various foods make me feel. I've learned that unless I overdo, it's not the animal products and added fats that make me feel bad. Yet the phobia is still there.

zoolina wrote:Iregirl,

How did you get rid of the chatter? I fight it all day long, almost every day. I've only been ding no-s for 6 weeks, but I have to say I yearn for the time when the chatter quiets and I can just rely on habit and not willpower to get me through the eating day.

Z.

I'm not sure what sort of chatter you're encountering. Is it the kind where the first thought you have when you wake up in the morning is about what you're going to eat and how you're going to manage to not eat S things on an N day and how long it might take you to lose X amount of pounds so THEN your life will be fine? Or is the kind where you really don't like the way you look and you think people are constantly judging you negatively based solely on your appearance so you really really want to change your appearance instantly but when that doesn't happen you begin to get more frustrated and this leads to desperation and to the point where you desire to not be inside your own skin anymore even though you know inside your heart you're a good and beautiful person and you have to take your body with you wherever you go in the world?

Mine was a mixture of both, and it was constant. I'm not sure how long it took before it started to subside. I just remember slowly gaining confidence in knowing what I was doing was right for me. Also part of my chatter was about how if the current plan I was on wasn't producing astounding and instantaneous results, then I must be on the wrong plan. So making the firm commitment to stick with this current plan...forevermore...no matter what...regardless of whether or not my size drastically changed went a very long way in squelching the yappity, yappity, yap in my mind. Another thing that happened was when my inner squirrel calmed down some I began to notice and truly appreciate other facets of my life that I'd completely overlooked. I remember one day driving home at dusk and the sky was that pinky/purplish/orangey because the sunset was really amazing. It was breathtakingingly beautiful, and I actually got choked up when I realized there were probably many times I'd seen a sky such as that and not even noticed or appreciated it because I was too busy listening to that voice inside my head yammering on about one thing or another.

The WW part really rings true. I did WW for a year or so and lost 50 pounds. But the program keeps you hungry 24/7 and preoccupied with points. The only reason I kept at it so long is because I saw the progress and so did people around me. Then there is the part where you eat something and you have to "guess" how many points that might be. That drove me insane. I went to bed starving many a time. When I finally couldn't stand it anymore, I ate everything in sight. I gained back the 50 pounds plus 20 more. You can just imagine how totally frustrating that was. So I am trying NOS with less enthusiasm than WW. Not because I don't think it will work, but because I don't want to be burned again.

Kwag Myers wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of chatter you're encountering. Is it the kind where the first thought you have when you wake up in the morning is about what you're going to eat and how you're going to manage to not eat S things on an N day and how long it might take you to lose X amount of pounds so THEN your life will be fine?

On and off the no-s horse many times with this one. Then there's the internal chatter when I actually see an S food (in the cafeteria, at home, wherever. I'm not going to not have snacks at all since there ARE s days).

"oh just one might be ok after all it's not as if anyone is watching and its X calories... and I've had Y calories so far and ....etc etc"

AND I know the calories of nearly every food I eat and I can estimate almost anything pretty well because I know them. I am trying very hard to break myself of the calculating habit, but I have an extremely good memory for number associations (I didn't even learn how to use cell phone number storage till my 2nd year having the phone).

So since I also know that I need to eat 1600 calories a day to lose weight at a noticeable (1pound/week) rate at my current weight... I still always calculate without trying. I dislike this intensely.

The dialogue is a little quieter after a few times with no s though....

I have spent several years on and off (mostly off) that same vegan low fat diet. I recognize a few people on this board from a discussion board centered on that diet. It did not give me a healthy relationship with food. I could eat as much of the food as I wanted and still lose weight but I am no longer sure that is a good thing. Especially because whenever I went off the diet I would continue eating as much as I wanted but would gain weight. It was also a problem for me that I couldn't discuss the minor modifications I made to make the diet doable for me. I wasn't vegan and would for example use some 1/2 & 1/2 in my coffee every morning.

I started this diet (nos) a while back but then tried to go back to the other diet as I was worried about the quality of my diet. I failed and then floundered for a while and now I'm back. This is my third day and it has been going great for me.

Hey there, Kwag! I remember you well from the McDougall board. Glad you have found your way here!

Jan Tz (aka Jammin' Jan)

I'm a modified McDougall almost vegan menopausal rheumatoid arthritic with an eating disorder.

My husband pointed out to me this morning, and I believe he is correct, that the more bored and frustrated one is, the louder the chatter!

EVERY SINGLE one of my binge/bad food choice behaviors has come about due to boredom and frustration.

What I love about this diet is that it recognizes the reality of boredom and frustration (or whatever stress causes the problem) and in effect provides a distraction (habit of equal strength) to counteract them.

f

Z.[/quote]

I'm not sure what sort of chatter you're encountering. Is it the kind where the first thought you have when you wake up in the morning is about what you're going to eat and how you're going to manage to not eat S things on an N day and how long it might take you to lose X amount of pounds so THEN your life will be fine? Or is the kind where you really don't like the way you look and you think people are constantly judging you negatively based solely on your appearance so you really really want to change your appearance instantly but when that doesn't happen you begin to get more frustrated and this leads to desperation and to the point where you desire to not be inside your own skin anymore even though you know inside your heart you're a good and beautiful person and you have to take your body with you wherever you go in the world?Z.[/quote]

Both Both Both Both Both. And did I say BOTH?



And I gotta long ways to go, but I won't give up. WELCOME KWAG!

Darn, I'm just not getting those quotes in the little white boxes when I try..and they blend in with what I'm saying... sorry guys... I'm a work in progress when it comes to BBs.

lots of ex-mcdougallers ... I tried it in my twenties and just didn't work at all for me.

I am a vegan just turning vegetarian who eats healthy amounts of olive oil, avocado, nuts and seeds ... I found this really makes me enjoy all of my veggies and beans etc much more.

I don't get the no fat thing sugar is much more fattening than healthy fat IMHO and the results from my body ... whenever I have add sugar I add 10-20 pounds because I binge on it ...
whenever I take out sugar I lose the same ten to twenty but have never been able to do zero sugar for more than six months.

I don't find lo fat vegan diets pleasurable I don't care what anyone says!
But I also don't like cheese at all anymore.

Blueskighs

Just adding my 2c to the vegan thing

I too was tempted to try the fat free version of a vegan diet, as I'm a vegan anyway for ethical reasons (plus dairy intolerance) I figured going that step further and eliminating added fat (vegetable oils, nuts etc.) wouldn't be difficult.

However, I did find that I was much more hungry, and eating more volume in an attempt to satisfy the hunger (not always successfully). I also found that my skin and hair got very dry, and I only did the fat free thing for about 10 days.

I then figured that if people have been consuming olive oil for thousands of years it can’t be bad for you! (I believe it was even referred to as liquid gold in Greece at one point).

Now on No S I still eat the same vegan diet I have for years, but find that when I make a point to add a decent amount of a fat source (olive oils, nuts, seeds, avocado etc.) I feel more satisfied and don’t get hungry so quickly.

What I like about No S is that it is the sensible “middle path†of diets, to borrow from Buddhist terminology It’s also something you can follow regardless of your dietary preference, as it is about the habits rather than the actual foods.

Yo Ho! Bonnie ... always nice to meet another veg-n I use the dash because I was vegan for 22 months and just turned vegetarian ... I too became vegan for ethical reasons ... but my hair was totally falling out in gobs and when I added organic yogurt and free range eggs to my diet it stopped ...

the only eggs I buy are at the Farmer's Market where we KNOW the chicks are REALLY free range ... also I am learning they will be less available in winter ... factory farms put in fake lights so the poor chicks keep pumping out eggs and never get a chance to rest ....


Blueskighs

bonnieUK wrote: Now on No S I still eat the same vegan diet I have for years, but find that when I make a point to add a decent amount of a fat source (olive oils, nuts, seeds, avocado etc.) I feel more satisfied and don’t get hungry so quickly.

What I like about No S is that it is the sensible “middle path†of diets, to borrow from Buddhist terminology It’s also something you can follow regardless of your dietary preference, as it is about the habits rather than the actual foods.

Exactly. Long live guacamole!

Where in London do you live? I want to visit the UK before I die, especially Scotland, Yorks and Geordieville.

f

Kwag Myer-I was just thinking how this would be great for Overeaters Anon. etc.! Congratulations on finding this site-I too feel blessed! A long time ago someone told me to do something similar & I felt it might not be possible-I think diet mentality really does make us think screwy-I also had that impatience about me too. I also can wait on weight loss-getting "straight" around food is really important & I love what Reinhard says about habits! This place is also HILarious!!!!! Best of luck & sorry to ramble!!!-Glenda

I love No S living.
I love the people on this board.
I love the fact that many of us have been on the same maddening path of disordered eating and crazy unsustainable diets in the past so we can relate to each others struggles.
I love how other people won't judge us when we talk about the "voices in our head".
But, there is something more powerful than those voices and it's called habit.
In time, habit will start muffling the voices and it will shut them up.
Did I mention, I love habit?

I know, I sound crazy now.

I once read something that went like this: Motivation is not something that will magically come out of nowhere. Motivation is the act of doing the same thing over and over again on a daily basis.

Or maybe it said: Motivation will never come, it's the act of doing something over and over.

Oh heck. I don't remember the actual quote. If anyone knows how the quote actually goes, feel free to correct me.

I think you get my gist of what I mean.
Do No S over and over again and you will get more and more motivated to do it. Then...bam...out of nowhere...it's just habit. Then you can work on something else over and over again.

Do No S over and over again and you will get more and more motivated to do it. Then...bam...out of nowhere...it's just habit. Then you can work on something else over and over again.

For the first time in my life I really beleive I can do just that...
get No S to be a habit and then finally with this food thing behind me ... work on something else with my complete attention! YAY!

Blueskighs