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Last gripe I can think of.

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:18 pm
by Lilly
When exactly did the NEED to eat 9 fruit and vegetable servings, daily, become the 11th Commandment? Eating nine servings of produce is another form of gluttony(assuming you aren't a vegan).
That would have meant Mother would have needed to have 63 fruit/veggie servings served up on a daily basis. Didn't happen. Nothing wrong with eating lots of produce. What is wrong is selling us on the idea it is MANDATORY. Never was. Still isn't.

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:25 pm
by NoelFigart

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:56 pm
by wosnes
I think scientists and dietitians and nutritionists have been looking at the health/weight vs diet mess we're in and trying to decide how to fix it. More vegetables and friuts are their answer.

Personally, I don't think more veggies and fruits are a bad idea. I also don't think it's that simple.

A few years ago I was reading an article about the Mediterranean diet, particularly the diet of the people on Crete. While they do eat lots of vegetables and fruits, the scientists didn't think that was the reason they are healthy and long-lived. Neither did they think it was their high consumption of olive oil. Rather, they thought it was a synergistic effect of all the component of their diet as well as their lifestyle.

While I was reading that I realized that all of the healthy people I knew or had read about (individuals or groups) had some things in common:

1. They ate lots of vegetables and fruits, as well as beans and grains, but very few were vegetarian or vegan. They didn't use low-fat or fat free or low-carb foods.
2. They ate very few processed foods, but didn't necessarily eliminate white flour, sugar, or white rice. They avoided additives and chemicals.
3. They exercised, but most of them got their exercise in the course of daily living, not by going to gyms.

And now I realize that most had eating habits similar to No-S.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:03 am
by Blithe Morning
Will it come as a surprise to anyone that the USDA is the one that sets the nutritional guidelines, including the Food Pyramid and the 5 a Day?

Why isn't this information coming through the Surgeon General's office instead, being that the Surgeon General is the chief public health educator? http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/

f you look at the USDA's strategic plan, expanding markets internationally and developing alternative markets rate higher on the list of activites than providing nutrition education. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do see a potential conflict of interest.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:04 am
by blueskighs
Noel,

Blast from my past ... my old stomping grounds in anothe lifetimes I used to work at UTMDACC

Lilly,

I releive believe in veggies! I try to make sure I get in at least one serving of something GOOD AND GREEN everyday! Otherwise I am not too good with numbers :wink:

Blith Morning,
very astute point that I have never noticed. OF COURSE THAT IS A HUGE CONFLICT OF INTEREST!

Blueskighs

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:29 am
by wosnes
I heard an interview with Michael Pollan last week. He said (hypothesized) that when the government starts paying for our healthcare, they'll get interested in how we eat. That may be when the USDA no longer controls dietary information.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:06 am
by DianeA2Z
Lilly, et al,

Great commentary from everyone. I, too, like fruits and veggies and some days I hit the so-called quota and other days, not so much. I'm thinking I might eat more fruit if I eat it with lunch and dinner, (ok, I'll put it on my plate on top of everything else, then take it off and eat it last :D )

Sometimes having V-8 juice is my answer. Fortunately one serving of fruits/veggies is usually 1/2 cup, so a large piece of fruit could net 2 servings of fruit. Today was my first S day and we went out for breakfast. It was great to pick out something I hadn't had in years and years (blintzes) and I gave 2 of them to my husband in exchange for half of his rueben omelette plate. Best thing was that we each ate one blintz and 1/2 of the half omelette and brought the rest home to have for breakfast tomorrow. That left me some freedom to have little breakfast pastries at lunch.

This concept is so simple and makes so much sense. Don't you think it's interesting that a man is the one to come up with such a sensible suggestion to lose weight? I mean women constantly have the weight issue pushed down our throats (if only that would fill us up, we wouldn't need to overeat!). God Bless Reinhard for "seeing the light" and sharing his info with us. I know men have weight issues too, but so much pressure is put on to women. Lilly is so right, when she and I were growing up we ate the No S way and didn't realize it; it's too bad we lost our way. My mom (who's 82) has reminded me many times that when I was a teenager I ate "normally" ... or the No S way, actually. When I think back to that time, I know I did eat that way and as thin as I was I
still thought I looked fat! Then I got married young and had two kids. I'm still waiting to lose that baby fat (and my "baby" and his wife just had their first child). At least this husband loves me even though I'm overweight. He's really encouraging and supports whatever plan I decide to follow. Poor man has been through some strange times the past 10 years; he's certainly a keeper.

Lilly, I hope to see more of your thoughts.

Diane

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:40 am
by stevecooper
I think a profound lack of some things (vitamins, vegetables, exercise) have been proved to be bad for heath, and people have made the incorrect inverse belief that an excess must be good for you;

So while no fruit will give you scurvy, and 5 portions is good for you, ten won't give you super powers.

Similarly with exercise -- don't get enough -- get heart disease. Get more than enough -- no better than enough.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 pm
by kccc
stevecooper wrote:So while no fruit will give you scurvy, and 5 portions is good for you, ten won't give you super powers.
No super powers?!? I'm so disappointed.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:57 pm
by Lilly
The bad mojo I am trying to remove myself from is all the advice from the "experts" that has been sent my way since I segued from doing what was right for me. I admit in my 20's and had 18 pounds to lose(or 18 pounds that were over my usual wt.)I went to the experts to tell me how to lose it. Well it came off amazingly fast. How could it not. A dry can of tuna with a dry piece of white bread and a piece of fruit for lunch and liver once a week hidden underneath some ghastly no fat butter for dinner. So when I reached "goal" I thought I was done. Isn't weight lost, lost? Um, no. Maintenance was not their specialty, as few reached it. So I thought, ok, I am normal weight for me now and went out and ate and ate and ate all the things I had deprived myself of. Then I weighed more than when I started and that is how it went until now. More wt. upon more wt.
My(dare I say anger) at the experts was that most of what I was told & sold was not true. Not to bash WW(they were just "my first") BUT when the expert(leader) told us we could eat TEN HEADS OF LETTUCE if we were hungry, that was just CRAZY. Hence this post about some other nut case trying to tell me I godda get to nine f&v's daily, it pulls the scab off an old wound.
So yes, f&v's are great for us. BUUUUUUUUUT no mandatories please! An apple is an apple, Not a point or a carb count or a serving size. An apple by any other name is still just an apple. Enjoy!

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:06 pm
by Rheba
Lilly....how about all the carrots you could eat??? Any time and any where and any place!!! Oh the insanity of it all. And that we fell for it!

Rheba

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:15 pm
by Lilly
Rheba,
Carrots counted as one of your bread servings then. Imagine anyone being willing to limit carrots??? So by definiton a carrot wasn't a veg. it was a bread. So carrots were going to do you i, not beets like Reinhard discusses today. Happy to see that a carrot is now a carrot again. Not "x" amount of bread servings. Enjoy!

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:20 pm
by Rheba
when I joined, carrots were a freebie....couldn't have made it through the "program" without them. And I faithfully turned in my "weekly diet sheet" each week and was never told they were bread!! WOW! The good old days, right?

Rheba

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:33 pm
by Lilly
Rheba,
In 1975 ww used an exchange system and carrots were limited, grouped in with bread and the life threatening corn.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:12 pm
by kccc
I did WW about 2003 or so... maybe a little later. I think that carrots counted as points, but that seemed so totally stupid I ignored it.

I did lose on WW. I also about went out of my mind counting, and I'm sure I drove people around me nuts. And even worse was the constant internal bargaining... "if I don't have this, I can have that..." I know now I shorted myself on protein to eat junk - no wonder I was always hungry!

And I could not maintain on WW. The attention-load was unsustainable.

(I do like the "eat a rainbow" recommendation as far as food - variety is good. However... my 7-year-old and his little friend were "cooking" in her mom's kitchen - mostly throwing junk together to make "soup" - and we overheard him tell her "let's put in some M&Ms, b/c they're lots of different colors and my mom says you should eat different colored food to be healthy." We laughed until we cried at how literal - and how wrong! - his interpretation was.)

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:15 pm
by Rheba
Lilly, I joined in 82 so they must have decided that carrots could go back to being veggies. Corn was definitely a bread item and heaven forbid if you wanted potatoes too often! Yeah, when I went back to doing ww in the 2000's carrots were points...and then when I did core, they were free. Too bad they can't make up their minds!

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:17 pm
by NoelFigart
Rheba wrote:Lilly, I joined in 82 so they must have decided that carrots could go back to being veggies. Corn was definitely a bread item and heaven forbid if you wanted potatoes too often! Yeah, when I went back to doing ww in the 2000's carrots were points...and then when I did core, they were free. Too bad they can't make up their minds!
I used to be a Diet Center Counselor back in the late 1980s. I really thought I was helping people. (Though frankly on a 900 calorie a day diet, ya know... I was making the problem worse).

While I did not think of it this way, it occurs to me that the "Diet Industry" stands to lose if the problem is... .SOLVED.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:35 pm
by wosnes
DianeA2Z -- I tried looking at the web site you link to, but it wouldn't open completely. I'm having trouble with my server today. Anyway, I mean no offense.

Over the last six months or so I've gotten sick to death of the idea of "eating for health" and having the scientists, nutritionists, dietitians, docs and various experts (not to mention the media and food industry) tell us what to eat. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should eat junky foods.

Both the Asian and Mediterranean diets have been used as examples of healthy ways to eat. Those people (along with our ancestors here) ate what was available and affordable, prepared in ways that were appealing and tasty. Beyond that, the food fit in with their social, cultural and religious norms. No one felt isolated because of what they ate. No one had some expert telling them what to eat or how to prepare it in a healthier manner. Few were overweight or had health problems associated with diet -- except due to lack of food or specific nutrients.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:42 pm
by Lilly
SOLVED. I agree, Noel.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:18 pm
by Bumpkyns
[quote="
So yes, f&v's are great for us. BUUUUUUUUUT no mandatories please! An apple is an apple, Not a point or a carb count or a serving size. An apple by any other name is still just an apple. Enjoy![/quote]

Great thought! This is all very similar to the HUGE thread I posted about what my nutritionist wants me to eat and/or not eat. And many of the "not eats" are fruits and veggies, that even they have issues depending on this, that or the other. It's driving me nuts. I'm going to continue on schedule with all her supplements and vitamins cuz they were expensive, and hopefully will give me some more energy so I'll go work out more. But beyond that... I think if I want my strawberries or an apple, or piece of mango, or my mushrooms and cucumbers she told me to stay away from... doggone it I'm eating them. I rarely get enough of the daily 5 in anyway, so I'm sure not going to limit the few I do eat.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:38 pm
by blueskighs
This concept is so simple and makes so much sense. Don't you think it's interesting that a man is the one to come up with such a sensible suggestion to lose weight? I mean women constantly have the weight issue pushed down our throats
Diane, that is such a really deep thought. I like it. Yes women and food we serve and eat can be so linked with our actual identity. And SOME men, my husband included, can get such enormous pleasure out of food and yet and apple is still just an apple and a donut is still just a donut.
A lovely balance of emotion and reason. I guess one reason I really related to Reinhards book is he hammers home the idea that food should be pleasurable and somewhat uncomplicated.

My husband has been trying to help me see this for the last ten years too. And I must say that he has the patience of Job. ANYWAY. I guess I just needed TWO SLEDGEHAMMERS to get through this thick skull. :lol: :lol:

Blueskighs

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:43 pm
by blueskighs
I think a profound lack of some things (vitamins, vegetables, exercise) have been proved to be bad for heath, and people have made the incorrect inverse belief that an excess must be good for you;

So while no fruit will give you scurvy, and 5 portions is good for you, ten won't give you super powers.
Steve, there it is AGAIN.... that MODERATION thing :D It is true, I WANTED SUPERPOWERS and I have sacrificed good taste and pleasure in order to gain them. WHAT A RUDE AWAKENING .. that I only became grumpy, unfriendly and holier than thou in the process.... hahahha

thank goodness I have been liberated by NO S and now am content to be a mere mortal! My husband is pleased too... so tough living with a GODDESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blueskighs

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:20 pm
by wosnes
blueskighs wrote:
This concept is so simple and makes so much sense. Don't you think it's interesting that a man is the one to come up with such a sensible suggestion to lose weight? I mean women constantly have the weight issue pushed down our throats
Yea, and Jean Nidetch came up with Weight Watchers.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:35 pm
by blueskighs
Yea, and Jean Nidetch came up with Weight Watchers.
wosnes ....

oh wow!!!!!!! mean mean bad bad dark mother!!!!!!!!!! Putting us all on diets and depriving all of "her children" of pleasure!!!!!!!!!!

oh yes .... and sanity too! :lol:

Blueskighs

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:58 pm
by stevecooper
KCCC wrote:I did lose on WW. I also about went out of my mind counting, and I'm sure I drove people around me nuts. And even worse was the constant internal bargaining...
I decided to figure out just how complicated it is to spend your weightwatchers points. When I tried WW, I was on 24 points a day.

I wondered, how complicated is this system? How many choices do I have to make? How many different ways are there to divvy up 24 points amongst 3 meals and maybe a snack?

So I did the maths. Turns out there exactly two thousand, seven hundred and eighty three ways to divide your points.

And people wonder why WW sends you bonkers. ;)

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:01 pm
by stevecooper
wosnes wrote:Both the Asian and Mediterranean diets have been used as examples of healthy ways to eat.
I went to Rome last year, and in the town we stayed in, all the shops sold mainly booze, cheese, and cured meats. And everyone was skinny.

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:12 pm
by Blithe Morning
My super power is loading the dishwasher. I don't think I get it from vegetables though.

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:58 am
by bonnieUK
I am a vegan, and even I probably don't eat 9 servings of fruit and veg per day. For my 3 meals a day I tend to stick to a meal formula consisting of something like:

1 x starch food + 1-3 veg / salad / fruit + 1 x protein (serving of beans, pulses, seeds, nuts, tofu, veggie burger etc.) Plus extras such as olive oil

Aiming for 9 servings of fruit and veg a day seems excessive, not to mention uneconomical. I think this recommendation is to do with getting plenty of antioxidants, but you get antioxidants from other sources too such as tea (green, black, redbush tea) and even plain old coffee.

I think the No S "don't be an idiot" concept should apply here :)

p.s. another example, my DH's family live in Greece, they are mostly vegetarian, and generally eat fruit at breakfast, one big meal at lunchtime (often vegetable / bean based) with bread, then a lighter meal in the evening based on bread, with a little salad, possibly some cheese. At the weekend they go out to eat and then eat more luxuriously, with fish or meat plus desserts. They generally eat much more sensibly / lighlty than me and DH (and they're all thinner than us, no surprise there :))

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:39 pm
by Lilly
I found it hysterical when Reinhard said in his book that if you had 50 pounds to lose, you have no business worrying about antioxidants. Just killed me. :lol:

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:54 pm
by stevecooper
Blithe Morning wrote:My super power is loading the dishwasher.
You mean... YOU'RE the cleansenator!?!?

I would never have guessed behind those spectacles.

LAST THING I CAN THK OF TO GRIPE ABOUT

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:20 pm
by GLENDA
wosnes-Jean Neiditch took the diet the NY city health Dept gave her & lost weight-people asked her how she did it & soon they were meeting in her apt-outgrew that & had to meet in a bigger place & the rest is history-"herstory" if you are a feminist. It doesn't really matter. The part that works at ww is the support-like here on this board!!! This is sooooo much better-& I agree with whowver said we all used to eat this way. My mom(87) recently said 1 plate-no seconds & don't eat between meals-Shocking!!!!!! :lol:

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:26 pm
by DianeA2Z
Blithe Morning wrote:My super power is loading the dishwasher. I don't think I get it from vegetables though.
Do you load from the front or the back???? :lol: Seriously, I loved that!

OMG, if all of the WW dropouts lined up, how long a line do you suppose that would be? I did WW too and did really well as long as my husband went with me. He reached goal, I didn't; and then he wouldn't go to any more meetings...kind of one of the reasons why he's now my Ex 8)! I really, really really hated those public weigh-ins! And why is it that every nurse who has ever weighed me insists upon announcing my weight over the loud speaker???? (Sorry, I really do respect nurses!)

Thank God and my angels that my "now" husband supports all my efforts and flights of fancy! He is just the best and I am spoiled rotten (ok, he's spoiled too). This is one eating plan that won't negate my sense of humor.

Diane

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:37 pm
by DianeA2Z
Wosnes,

Did you click on the site directly from this site? I just double checked it and it worked just fine. I hope you give it another try. :) Any comments about what you read there are welcome! 8)

Diane

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:43 pm
by wosnes
I haven't tried again, but my computer was having issues yesterday.