Bushranger!

No Snacks, no sweets, no seconds. Except on Days that start with S. Too simple for you? Simple is why it works. Look here for questions, introductions, support, success stories.

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Mounted Ranger!
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Bushranger!

Post by Mounted Ranger! » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:12 pm

Where've you been?
Mounted Ranger!
No S-ing, Ranging, and Shovelgloving since 7/7/09

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bluebunny27
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Post by bluebunny27 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:36 am

Hum, I think BushRanger's gone now. He might be lurking though. (Hi !)
Cheers !

Marc ;-)

Disclaimer : I am following a more extreme version of the 'No-S' diet.
I made my own personal modifications to the original plan (Diet & Exercise)
What I am doing should not be misinterpreted as being a typical 'No-S' diet experience.
11/01/2008 : 280.0 pounds
08/21/2009 : 196.4 pounds
( 9 months 21 days / -83.6 pounds )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goal : 11/01/2009 : 190.0 pounds ( 1 year / -90.0 pounds )

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reinhard
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Post by reinhard » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:29 pm

Hi Bushranger,

Hope there are no hard feelings about that last somewhat heated discussion?

Hey, it happens. Diet can be a sensitive issue :-)

Hope you're doing well and looking forward to seeing more of your helpful and informative posts here,

Reinhard

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bluebunny27
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Post by bluebunny27 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:46 pm

BushRanger sent me a couple of personal messages 4-5 days ago and he was pissed off, not sure why ... I don't know what happened. He said he was leaving and may or may not come back in the future, not sure if it's all temporary.

Like me, he was sometimes frustrated by some people's lack of motivation / excessive whining / attempts to find flimsy excuses for not exercising or not eating properly, etc. That's some of the things he mentioned before ridin' into the sunset.

BushRanger, I salute you.

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

Disclaimer : I am following a more extreme version of the 'No-S' diet.
I made my own personal modifications to the original plan (Diet & Exercise)
What I am doing should not be misinterpreted as being a typical 'No-S' diet experience.
11/01/2008 : 280.0 pounds
08/21/2009 : 196.4 pounds
( 9 months 21 days / -83.6 pounds )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goal : 11/01/2009 : 190.0 pounds ( 1 year / -90.0 pounds )

TunaFishKid
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Post by TunaFishKid » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:05 pm

bluebunny27 wrote:...he was sometimes frustrated by some people's lack of motivation / excessive whining / attempts to find flimsy excuses for not exercising or not eating properly, etc. That's some of the things he mentioned before ridin' into the sunset.
Every person here has a different body, a different metabolism, and a different experience in this world. An obese, middle-aged woman who has damaged her metabolism with years of yo-yo dieting may not necessarily be whining when she states that her experience is different from that of a healthy young man. And it is not for anyone to judge if someone else's experience is legitimate or a "flimsy excuse".

I do not know who Bushranger is, but from reading his posts he strikes me as a young man who thinks he has all the answers and who has no tolerance for anyone who does not fit his mold.

(ETA: Okay, upon re-reading, that sounded a little cranky. But I'm cooking dinner and having a hot flash.)
Last edited by TunaFishKid on Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~ Laura ~

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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:21 pm

TunaFishKid wrote:
bluebunny27 wrote:...he was sometimes frustrated by some people's lack of motivation / excessive whining / attempts to find flimsy excuses for not exercising or not eating properly, etc. That's some of the things he mentioned before ridin' into the sunset.
Every person here has a different body, a different metabolism, and a different experience in this world. An obese, middle-aged woman who has damaged her metabolism with years of yo-yo dieting may not necessarily be whining when she states that her experience is different from that of a healthy young man. And it is not for anyone to judge if someone's experience is legitimate or a "flimsy excuse".

I do not know who Bushranger is, but from reading his posts he strikes me as a young man who thinks he has all the answers and who has no tolerance for anyone who does not fit his mold.
Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but I like him the way he is and, Laura, respectfully, you don't sound so tolerant yourself just now.

Oh, maybe we were typing at the same time . . . :)
Last edited by Mounted Ranger! on Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mounted Ranger!
No S-ing, Ranging, and Shovelgloving since 7/7/09

TunaFishKid
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Post by TunaFishKid » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:24 pm

Mounted Ranger! wrote: Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but I like him the way he is and, Laura, respectfully, you don't sound so tolerant yourself just now.
LOL. I was editing my post at the same time you were posting. Check out my edit.

(And I am very tolerant, just a little cranky right now. And not very tolerant of intolerant people. ) :)
~ Laura ~

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Post by TunaFishKid » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:27 pm

:mrgreen: This is definitely going to confuse people.
~ Laura ~

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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:27 pm

Okay, I see we're on at the same time. :D

I should be cooking, too, but herre I sit, seeing what everyone else is up to.

Pax!
Mounted Ranger!
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reitschule
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Post by reitschule » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:17 pm

I'm not sure that it's possible to damage one's metabolism in the way you describe, but damaging one's willpower, yes.

I have only been here a short time, but have noticed the distinction between the very gentle and supportive community of former yo-yo dieters, and the people who take a harsher, hard-lined approach.

Yo-yo dieting conditions one to failure and causes them to associate the use of their willpower with stress and anxiety, instead of self-confidence and a sense of accomplishment. (I think Reinhard has mentioned willpower being like a muscle before; this is very true -- it weakens with disuse and injurious workouts, and strengthens with good workouts.) Thus the yo-yo dieter begins to set their sights lower and lower as their willpower becomes weaker and weaker. This is the attraction of the NoS diet to this type of person: it's easy! I can eat my favourite foods again!

This is NOT the strength of the NoS diet. There are PLENTY of diets out there designed to capitalize on vulnerable dieters with low-self confidence by marketing themselves as easy on the willpower.

The strength of the NoS diet is that it points the willpower away from a lifestyle change and onto the project of building the habits that will make the lifestyle change sustainable long-term.

The emotional and rational resources of our conscious self are suited to tackling discrete projects, with a hump of difficulty at the beginning and a clear finish line at the end. If we take this approach to lifestyle changes, we're bound to fail -- but unfortunately not until a few months down the line, long enough that what's wrong isn't intuitive. When we reorient our approach to lifestyle changes, thinking them not as projects but as habits, and the project to which we apply our willpower as the building/ingraining of this habit, this is a much more psychologically sound way to go about self-improvement.

But it still requires willpower. Having low willpower because of past failures in losing weight is like having a bad back due to weak muscles -- you don't get better by resting and laying around all day; you've got to exercise those muscles. You can't exercise your willpower muscle unless you're taking some risks in habit-building -- a bit of ribbing by someone with stronger willpower may be helpful here.

(My two cents)

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Post by kccc » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:30 pm

reitschule wrote: You can't exercise your willpower muscle unless you're taking some risks in habit-building -- a bit of ribbing by someone with stronger willpower may be helpful here.

(My two cents)
I would actually agree with you on the willpower/self-confidence being weakened and needing building up. And I think No-S does this really well, by setting the level of effort appropriately and directing it in a productive direction.

But I TOTALLY disagree about "ribbing" being helpful - in fact, I think it's incredibly detrimental and more likely to increase failure.

Would you mock a child who fell off a bike or had trouble mastering math? No, you'd encourage him/her to try again, and offer helpful suggestions or a little more help in learning. (At least, I hope you would.) So why be unkind to an adult who is trying again?

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kwonset
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Post by kwonset » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:41 pm

reitschule wrote: (great post, by the way)

"You can't exercise your willpower muscle unless you're taking some risks in habit-building -- a bit of ribbing by someone with stronger willpower may be helpful here."

The best thing about NoS Diet for me is the building of new habits. I'm one of those yo-yo-ers, and a bit of a slouch to boot. Snacking and 'wine-ing' were my evening habit.
Almost three weeks into this I see how I can change that habit, and doing the No-S as Reinhard suggests, plain vanilla, keeps me from making excuses. I think it works for me because I am being strict, and each day I am strict, the better the habit is being ingrained. Before, even if a 'diet' worked, as soon as I eased up the old habits came back.
If some one could have 'ribbed' me out of my wine and chips habit, I might have gotten snarky, but I hope I would have eventually thanked them.

flightisleavin
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Post by flightisleavin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:39 am

Speaking as an overweight women I do think women have a harder time losing weight then men do. We also have the influence of hormones that affect estrogen, cortisone, insulin, fat stores, muscle mass, blah blah, etc. So weight loss can be more of a challenge for a women than a lot of men. I can attest to that.

But I also get where Bushranger is coming from. An example is that people go on the Biggest Loser show and they claim in an exasperated voice "I've tried everything" then they get into a serious diet/exercise program and the weight comes off. So they have not really tried "everything."

What I have liked about No S is that it is a gentler approach and and it doesn't feel like all the diets that are restrictive. But I also know I cannot eat everything want without some thought to discipline and that I cannot sit on the sofa and expect the weight to come off. So it is a balance. I also have a belief that processed foods were not helping me so I gave them up for the most part but I know that I cannot beat others over the head with this idea without any solid proof because then it just becomes part of the funny science that Reinhard talks about. I will do it quietly for me. :lol:

Dieting is right up there with politics as far as being controversial and a heated subject. And I cannot help but thinking where did we go from enjoying meals to thinking about the minutae of food and dieting. I think it is because we have so many choices and so much abundance that it seems like simple discipline would do the trick for the obesity/overweight problems. I think it is much more complicated than that because because of the choices we have, not just in food but in what food plan to follow. If it were easier I think people would at least have short term success and even that can be a struggle.
Starting date: June 22, 2009. Starting wgt: 220. Goal 120. Current weight: 198. Mindset: Celebrating moderation.

reitschule
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Post by reitschule » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:13 am

KCCC wrote:
reitschule wrote: You can't exercise your willpower muscle unless you're taking some risks in habit-building -- a bit of ribbing by someone with stronger willpower may be helpful here.

(My two cents)
I would actually agree with you on the willpower/self-confidence being weakened and needing building up. And I think No-S does this really well, by setting the level of effort appropriately and directing it in a productive direction.

But I TOTALLY disagree about "ribbing" being helpful - in fact, I think it's incredibly detrimental and more likely to increase failure.

Would you mock a child who fell off a bike or had trouble mastering math? No, you'd encourage him/her to try again, and offer helpful suggestions or a little more help in learning. (At least, I hope you would.) So why be unkind to an adult who is trying again?
Well -- I really think the difference between adult and child invalidates the analogy here. I'm not a parent so I'm going to avoid that one.

Let's say that an adult was frustrated trying to learn to ride a bicycle, and their willpower and self-confidence were so low that their perception of the difficulty of this task was becoming markedly different from the general consensus. I could see myself saying: "Hey, come on. Yes it seems hard from your perspective right now, tired and feeling low, but you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I saw a 90yo grandma riding a unicycle the other day. It's time to take off the training wheels."

Perhaps ribbing/teasing are not the right words. What I mean in everyday systems terms is merely some occasional "enlightened self-mockery" between fellow posters. I don't see it as being unkind. If I am permitted to compare being overweight with the Holocaust (example), the opposite of love is not hate; it's indifference.

If they don't have a 90yo unicyclist whizzing by now and then as a reminder of what's possible, the club of adults trying to learn how to ride a bike could spend more time being the club of adults reinforcing each other's suspicions that bicycles are dangerous and really not that much fun anyway.

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Post by winnie96 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:26 am

Reinhard,

I'm kind of concerned that your No-S concept/online support is being hijacked by some of the Much-Smarter-Than-Us-Regular folks on these boards.

I'd love to think that I was much smarter, or thinner, and didn't have to deal with these boards, but I guess I'm not, so I have to listen to people like "reitschule", who know what I should do.

For those who think the idea that a "soft place to land" is idiotic, perhaps you could set up a separate sub-website for those who have the Absolute Answer That We Should All Follow ... those folks could post about their True Way to Follow, and the rest of us less enlightened people could access our old familiar No-S forum where we pose everyday problems and get helpful responses from people who have kind of 'been there, done that'.

I just hate posting something as sarcastic as the above, but since this discussion seems to have descend into this squalor, who am I to think I am above it?

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Post by Mavilu » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:06 am

If I may, given that I only post once in a blue moon:

What I'm seeing is a new brand of posters that have a very particular mindset, the mindset of being *very* healthy, in *excellent* shape and full of energy and gusto, which is good, I know, because I was there a few years ago, many of us go through that health kick at least once in our lives, some stay in that mindset, some other's mindset change and or evolve.
Unfortunately, that mindset, as much as it might seem, it isn't the best answer, nor the absolute answer to health and optimal quality of life.
It's been discussed here how the okinawans, the mediterranean people and a few grandmas and grandpas around live healthy full lives without ever lifting a dumbell or drinking smoothies with protein powder or what have you, that should be a good enough example that not everyone fits in one mold when it comes to health and fitness.

There are different mindsets and different approaches here as in everywhere and not one fits all, yes?.

So, I particularly didn't care for Bushranger's tone, I'm not anyone's kid and I really don't care for being admonished for not meeting someone's else's standards of health and fitness; as long as I'm feeling good with my own standards I'm good.

Now. We can discuss different points of view, different approaches, give each other pointers and tips and that's pretty much what we can do without intruding and being rude.
If any of us asks for a good "word whipping" and "ribbing", it's all good, but only then.

That this forum has been labelled as one of "weak minded people" or something like that really bothers me and I don't wish to read anything the like ever again.

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Post by ThomsonsPier » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:22 am

flightisleavin wrote:I do think women have a harder time losing weight then men do.
Yup. Oestrogen favours fat acquisition, testosterone favours muscle growth. There's not a lot to do about it, and it means that exercise is often more beneficial to men in terms of weight loss than it is to women.

Anyway, back to the point. I don't participate in a great many discussions here myself because I find the tone of the forum a mite fluffy; the conversations which interest me are a bit livelier or have recipes in them. This is a personal preference, not a criticism. There are other forums I visit for arguments. The difference between the subjects of these forums, I think, goes some way to explain their variations in attitude.

Here, the overriding concern is weight loss; that's probably how most people got here and they're staying because it's working. It's a very personal thing and weight is closely linked to appearance which, in turn, is linked to social mores and others' perceptions of us. A great many have been struggling with this for years, so the simplicity throws them and they ask questions with answers that seem obvious to those who haven't been yo-yo dieting for a good portion of their lives. The result of criticisms of people's techniques on this forum is that they're felt as a personal attack.

The other forums I visit are for martial artists, many of whom are teachers of their chosen styles. If someone criticises techniques there, we argue some more. It's still personal, but over a choice that was made near the start of the journey, not over a struggle against excess weight which was started before the tools to fight it were in place. In both forums, and with written communications in general, it's easy to forget that what's usually there in tone of voice and posture is absent and that the people on the other end of your words only know you through them. I have no idea who any of you are and wouldn't presume to lecture you on anything you didn't ask about (yes, I'm aware that's what I'm doing now). I don't think that lack of awareness regarding communication is what happened here, however.

The main reason I follow these eating habits is that they're maintainable with minimum effort. I have the knowledge and the flexibility in my life to lose all of my excess weight in short order, but that would require me to ditch this lifestyle in favour of another; one which I wouldn't enjoy. This is, to me, about balance, and some find that balance harder than others. To give some perspective on my viewpoint, this is the only 'diet' I've ever tried; I decided one day that I was getting fat and every single other diet seemed to have been written by someone talking through their hat.
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Post by Nichole » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:07 pm

I had posted a long reply but I think it would have just added to the problem.

All in all, I think people should lead by example and be gentle with the way they give advice.
"Anyone can cook." ~ Chef Gusteau, Ratatouille

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Post by reinhard » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:32 pm

1. Amen to no-s being about taking responsibility for your situation and exercising willpower.

2. I don't see why that should require "ribbing." If you want to suggest an new or modified "technique," or urge better compliance with the vanilla rules, there's no reason why you can't do that respectfully. We don't have to be all gaga googoo and never contradict each other here. But as a means of conveying "critique," I think we've now empirically established here that "ribbing" is ineffective (if not counter-productive) for most people. If people really WANT to rib and be ribbed, I'll gladly create a separate "texas death match" forum where they can indulge to their heart's content :-)

(ignore the smiley -- I'm serious, let me know if you want this!)

3. I hope bushranger come back. I've said some things over the years on this forum which rubbed people the wrong way, too. It's bound to happen after a few thousand posts. Let's be careful not to give offense, slow to take it, and quick to forgive and forget and move on.

Reinhard

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Post by wosnes » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:30 pm

Nichole wrote:I had posted a long reply but I think it would have just added to the problem.

All in all, I think people should lead by example and be gentle with the way they give advice.
I'm not sure that people need to be gentle with advice, but calling people delusional or saying that their opinions are bunk is a little too "in your face."
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by Nichole » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:42 pm

I agree.
"Anyone can cook." ~ Chef Gusteau, Ratatouille

reitschule
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Post by reitschule » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:43 am

winnie96 wrote:Reinhard,

I'm kind of concerned that your No-S concept/online support is being hijacked by some of the Much-Smarter-Than-Us-Regular folks on these boards.

I'd love to think that I was much smarter, or thinner, and didn't have to deal with these boards, but I guess I'm not, so I have to listen to people like "reitschule", who know what I should do.

For those who think the idea that a "soft place to land" is idiotic, perhaps you could set up a separate sub-website for those who have the Absolute Answer That We Should All Follow ... those folks could post about their True Way to Follow, and the rest of us less enlightened people could access our old familiar No-S forum where we pose everyday problems and get helpful responses from people who have kind of 'been there, done that'.

I just hate posting something as sarcastic as the above, but since this discussion seems to have descend into this squalor, who am I to think I am above it?
I didn't say that the idea of a weight loss community being a soft place to land was "idiotic", nor did I give you personally any advice whatsoever, so please do not put words in my mouth as you complain about me to someone else instead of responding to me directly.

What I am saying is that when you have a bunch of individuals with low willpower (this is not an insult -- I think willpower is like a muscle to be built or a skill to be learnt) together, there is the danger that the community will function as a place where everyone merely reinforces each other's resentment and lowered goals.

I know that sounds harsh, but -- I think someone else made a similar comment in another thread and was roundly thrashed for it -- when you look around to see posters that are still struggling with weight after being here for 4 years, you've got to think that maybe there are a significant number of "silent failures" occurring. That would be tragic, because I strongly believe that the overarching principles of this diet are sound and very helpful.

I have lost 25lbs this summer on a 3 meals/1 meal intermittent fasting version of this diet, and made many positive changes elsewhere in my life because of Reinhard's other everyday systems as well. I wandered in here after signing up for habitcal to share any relevant tips I picked up along the way. But if your opinion is shared by others I think that softening my words for the established tone of this forum is going to be too much of a hassle for it to be worth it. I don't mind leaving since I just got here, but I would caution you against making the successes silent as well.

edit: Well after re-reading I am a bit embarrassed to be threatening to leave with single digit posts. I want to say that there are downsides to the kind of "soft" censorship an overly nice forum practices significant enough to consider it a weightier issue than one of mere preference. I think the thread has stirred up some valuable discussion.

To the original point, I think bushranger was a valuable member and also hope he posts again.

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Post by tarantinofan » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:14 pm

Well, I've been reading about this "heated discussion" but haven't commented on it yet. I truly think it's disconcerting that a community, which should (in my mind) be supporting its members to eat in a healthier way is trashing its members on both sides of the spectrum. When we are dealing with such a subject like weight loss, which is inherently filled with animosity (perhaps due to past experiences with extreme diets or maybe past memories of being teased for being a certain weight), I think members need all the love and encouragement they can get.

Wosnes said: "...when you have a bunch of individuals with low willpower (this is not an insult -- I think willpower is like a muscle to be built or a skill to be learnt) together, there is the danger that the community will function as a place where everyone merely reinforces each other's resentment and lowered goals."

Wosnes, I do agree that any upset over specific individuals' comments should be dealt with directly. However, we disagree in our views of the supportive community that I have seen disintegrate on these boards lately. I don't think that a community like this one could possibly reinforce resentment and lowered goals unless it forces its members into defensive behavior by ribbing its members and certain members scoffing weight loss goals and views.

I hope noone is too offended by what I said, and I agree that I think this discussion is a great one to have. I hope you don't leave the forums, Wosnes. I think that your comments have been helpful! However, I think that we all need to keep common decency in mind when writing on these forums and when commenting on this discussion. We are all speaking to pretty much perfect strangers about a very touchy subject.

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Post by kccc » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:51 pm

Ari, I think your comments should be directed to reitschule, not Wosnes. Wosnes certainly did not say what you quoted.

Just to clarify.

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Post by wosnes » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:56 pm

KCCC wrote:Ari, I think your comments should be directed to reitschule, not Wosnes. Wosnes certainly did not say what you quoted.

Just to clarify.
You're right -- I didn't say any of that!
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:00 pm

reitschule wrote:
winnie96 wrote:
To the original point, I think bushranger was a valuable member and also hope he posts again.
me, too. :(
Mounted Ranger!
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Post by tarantinofan » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:24 pm

wosnes wrote:
KCCC wrote:Ari, I think your comments should be directed to reitschule, not Wosnes. Wosnes certainly did not say what you quoted.

Just to clarify.
You're right -- I didn't say any of that!
Yep, they should be...

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Post by bluebunny27 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:26 pm

Yeah, I tried to convince him to stay and maybe ignore the people he had issues with ... but that didn't seem to work too well, I haven't heard of him since the other day.

It's funny sometimes when you try to be good, help others to achieve what you've done and show a good example, you get berated for 'pushing too hard' or being 'holier than thou', whatever, as Bush was sayin' if you don't want to put in the work, don't complain about a slow weight loss or .... a weight gain ...

Apparently that's not a good thing to lead by example 'round here. That's what he was explaining and then he left sayin' he was pissed off and fed up with the whiners and the flimsy excuse finders. Sorry to see him go so
soon !

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

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Post by TunaFishKid » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:13 pm

bluebunny27 wrote: It's funny sometimes when you try to be good, help others to achieve what you've done and show a good example, you get berated for 'pushing too hard' or being 'holier than thou', whatever, as Bush was sayin' if you don't want to put in the work, don't complain about a slow weight loss or .... a weight gain ...

Apparently that's not a good thing to lead by example 'round here. That's what he was explaining and then he left sayin' he was pissed off and fed up with the whiners and the flimsy excuse finders. Sorry to see him go so
soon !
(Last time on this subject from me. I promise.)

Marc, I've usually enjoyed your posts and I think you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion. BUT you're missing the point of all this. Here it comes.....

Name-calling, derision, mockery, rudeness and insults are not helpful to anyone and have nothing at all to do with "helping others" and "leading by example".

That's the problem - it's not that people just don't want help.

(Edited for typo.)
Last edited by TunaFishKid on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by wosnes » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:19 pm

bluebunny27 wrote:Yeah, I tried to convince him to stay and maybe ignore the people he had issues with ... but that didn't seem to work too well, I haven't heard of him since the other day.

It's funny sometimes when you try to be good, help others to achieve what you've done and show a good example, you get berated for 'pushing too hard' or being 'holier than thou', whatever, as Bush was sayin' if you don't want to put in the work, don't complain about a slow weight loss or .... a weight gain ...

Apparently that's not a good thing to lead by example 'round here. That's what he was explaining and then he left sayin' he was pissed off and fed up with the whiners and the flimsy excuse finders. Sorry to see him go so
soon !

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

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I didn't see him as leading by example.

Ditto what TunaFishKid said.
Last edited by wosnes on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TunaFishKid » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:53 pm

Sorry...double posted by accident.
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Post by reitschule » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:49 am

Re: mixing me up with wosnes, that happens to me too among individuals without an avatar pic, haha.

I want to repeat what I said here:
reitschule wrote:Perhaps ribbing/teasing are not the right words. What I mean in everyday systems terms is merely some occasional "enlightened self-mockery" between fellow posters.
I think a mix of both methods of encouragement we have been discussing in this thread make for the healthiest self-improvement community. My philosophical side wants to interpret this as a profound truth about all human social dynamics, but I will restrain myself from going that far off-topic.

I don't think the kind-hearted souls of the core group in this forum should call doomsday at an influx of more aggressive and ambitious all-or-nothing types, and I don't think the latter group should self-censor their opinions so long as they are honest and genuinely trying to help, or avoid posting entirely because they find the typical tone a bit saccharine.

Reinhard's etiquette guidelines are fine by me (be slow to give offense, and slow to take it).

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Post by buttercreampillow » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:22 am

Am I the only one who sees shades of the differences between men and women's methods of encouragement? Young men are encouraged by their coaches by shouts of "Come on, you pantywaists!" (and worse!) I can only speak for myself, but I would fold up like a lawnchair if someone yelled an ugly name at me in a harsh way in front of a lot of other people, and I'm a strong woman.

Bushranger, Marc and Reitschule are men.
KCCC, wosnes, Bright Angel, etc., are women.

Maybe we as women should just :roll: and say, quietly and to ourselves, "Men!"

Maybe the guys should just :roll: and say, among themselves, "Chicks!"

buttercreampillow

P.S. Let me hasten to add that I am NOT suggesting some kind of war between the sexes--I'm just suggesting we could make allowances for each other in the same way that we make allowances for the significant others in our real lives who are of the opposite sex.
Last edited by buttercreampillow on Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ~hf » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:54 am

reitschule wrote: I want to repeat what I said here:
reitschule wrote:Perhaps ribbing/teasing are not the right words. What I mean in everyday systems terms is merely some occasional "enlightened self-mockery" between fellow posters.
Enlightened SELF-mockery. Doesn't that say it all?

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Post by funfuture » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:43 am

I must say, Buttercream pillow, I had exactly the same thought but wasn't sure if I should voice it! Glad you did.
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Post by Arismum » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:56 am

funfuture wrote:I must say, Buttercream pillow, I had exactly the same thought but wasn't sure if I should voice it! Glad you did.
Fun (female :-) )
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What they said.

I'll admit to being a bit of a lurker but I've always enjoyed Bushranger's comments, even if I didn't always agree, and I'll miss his input if he doesn't come back. It takes all sorts, a they say over here.

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Post by wosnes » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:21 am

Buttercreampillow -- I hadn't even thought of that. I think I know why I didn't think of it: that coach who humiliates the guys in the locker room expects them to be gentlemen in public. And when they aren't, they often resort to the "boys will be boys" defense.

The very best coaches, however, don't resort to humiliation and derogatory remarks. They have the uncommon ability to lead by example with quiet strength and still get results -- on and off the playing field.

Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:36 pm

reitschule wrote:I don't think the kind-hearted souls of the core group in this forum should call doomsday at an influx of more aggressive and ambitious all-or-nothing types, and I don't think the latter group should self-censor their opinions so long as they are honest and genuinely trying to help, or avoid posting entirely because they find the typical tone a bit saccharine.

Reinhard's etiquette guidelines are fine by me (be slow to give offense, and slow to take it).
Agreed!
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Post by Mounted Ranger! » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:38 pm

buttercreampillow wrote:Am I the only one who sees shades of the differences between men and women's methods of encouragement? Young men are encouraged by their coaches by shouts of "Come on, you pantywaists!" (and worse!) I can only speak for myself, but I would fold up like a lawnchair if someone yelled an ugly name at me in a harsh way in front of a lot of other people, and I'm a strong woman.

Bushranger, Marc and Reitschule are men.
KCCC, wosnes, Bright Angel, etc., are women.

Maybe we as women should just :roll: and say, quietly and to ourselves, "Men!"

Maybe the guys should just :roll: and say, among themselves, "Chicks!"

buttercreampillow

P.S. Let me hasten to add that I am NOT suggesting some kind of war between the sexes--I'm just suggesting we could make allowances for each other in the same way that we make allowances for the significant other's in our real lives who are of the opposite sex.
I couldn't have said it better myself! so I didn't. I was thinking the same thing, buttercreampillow.

Wow, I feel like I should only say that name on S days.
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Post by wosnes » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:08 pm

Mounted Ranger! wrote:
buttercreampillow wrote:Am I the only one who sees shades of the differences between men and women's methods of encouragement? Young men are encouraged by their coaches by shouts of "Come on, you pantywaists!" (and worse!) I can only speak for myself, but I would fold up like a lawnchair if someone yelled an ugly name at me in a harsh way in front of a lot of other people, and I'm a strong woman.

Bushranger, Marc and Reitschule are men.
KCCC, wosnes, Bright Angel, etc., are women.

Maybe we as women should just :roll: and say, quietly and to ourselves, "Men!"

Maybe the guys should just :roll: and say, among themselves, "Chicks!"

buttercreampillow

P.S. Let me hasten to add that I am NOT suggesting some kind of war between the sexes--I'm just suggesting we could make allowances for each other in the same way that we make allowances for the significant other's in our real lives who are of the opposite sex.
I couldn't have said it better myself! so I didn't. I was thinking the same thing, buttercreampillow.

Wow, I feel like I should only say that name on S days.
Absolutely nothing wrong with butter or cream -- even on N days. Everything in moderation!
"That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do. Not that the nature of the thing itself has changed but our power to do it is increased." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"You are what you eat -- so don't be Fast, Easy, Cheap or Fake."

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Post by deadweight » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:23 pm

Bushranger once wrote me saying,"Maybe less yacking on the internet and more real work will sort your fat ass out." Perhaps this was some of the good-natured ribbing that was supposed to help motivate me. However, having lost 60+ pounds and steadily approaching my goal, I just found his comments kind of laughable.

Here's the thing, I'm not interested in hearing people whine either. But getting into an argument over something that is ultimately so personal as weight-loss is kind of silly. And the more virulent a person gets, the more it seems like an ego thing to them. They have a need to be right to validate themselves, which is an gene I just don't possess. So if someone wants to call me fat, or say I'm wrong about something, knock yourself out. Have fun. I find angry people in real life somewhat comical, but online I just find them sad.

I know it's the ultimate in vanity to quote yourself, but I've already written about the futility of arguing over weight-loss before, so I'm just going to copy it below:

You see a lot of contradiction in diet books and on diet blogs and message boards. Some people will tell you to eat certain foods, others tell you to stay away from them, eat six meals, or maybe just three meals, do aerobics, avoid aerobics, take these pills, don't take any pills. Nobody's right. Everyone's right. You have to think of a diet as a trip home for Thanksgiving -- it's a personal destination and you should know better than anybody how to get there. If you're driving east on the highway heading home for Thanksgiving, you'll see a lot of cars driving west. If the person in the passenger seat said, "There's a lot of people heading home for the holiday," you wouldn't turn to that person and flip out and say, "What the hell! What a bunch of retards! Don't they know home is this way?" But that is what diet writing often is -- people arguing over how to get home

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Post by flightisleavin » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:54 pm

This is a timely article. I think it makes some important points re this discussion on discipline and weight loss.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/213646/page/1
Starting date: June 22, 2009. Starting wgt: 220. Goal 120. Current weight: 198. Mindset: Celebrating moderation.

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Post by reitschule » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:12 am

deadweight wrote:Bushranger once wrote me saying,"Maybe less yacking on the internet and more real work will sort your fat ass out." Perhaps this was some of the good-natured ribbing that was supposed to help motivate me. However, having lost 60+ pounds and steadily approaching my goal, I just found his comments kind of laughable.

Here's the thing, I'm not interested in hearing people whine either. But getting into an argument over something that is ultimately so personal as weight-loss is kind of silly. And the more virulent a person gets, the more it seems like an ego thing to them. They have a need to be right to validate themselves, which is an gene I just don't possess. So if someone wants to call me fat, or say I'm wrong about something, knock yourself out. Have fun. I find angry people in real life somewhat comical, but online I just find them sad.

I know it's the ultimate in vanity to quote yourself, but I've already written about the futility of arguing over weight-loss before, so I'm just going to copy it below:

You see a lot of contradiction in diet books and on diet blogs and message boards. Some people will tell you to eat certain foods, others tell you to stay away from them, eat six meals, or maybe just three meals, do aerobics, avoid aerobics, take these pills, don't take any pills. Nobody's right. Everyone's right. You have to think of a diet as a trip home for Thanksgiving -- it's a personal destination and you should know better than anybody how to get there. If you're driving east on the highway heading home for Thanksgiving, you'll see a lot of cars driving west. If the person in the passenger seat said, "There's a lot of people heading home for the holiday," you wouldn't turn to that person and flip out and say, "What the hell! What a bunch of retards! Don't they know home is this way?" But that is what diet writing often is -- people arguing over how to get home
If weight loss is a personal journey, don't you find it odd that the most highly individualistic culture on Earth is by far the fattest? There are two reasons for the incredibly pessimistic statistics on the prospect of sustained weight loss -- project-based thinking versus habit-based thinking; and casting it as an individual issue instead of a social one. Don't cancel out the progress of Reinhard's diet on the former by muddying up the latter.

The apparent diversity and contradiction in the diet marketplace is marketing. It's for the same reason that we have a bunch of different labels for petroleum jelly or ibuprofen or the same recipe of yellow mustard. Sellers emphasizes what makes their product different from the others, not what makes it work. On the practical level, weight loss is not physiologically complex. Eat less food and you will lose weight. Unfortunately, on the biochemical level the human metabolic system is incredibly complex, which allows the marketers plenty of science-y sound bites to choose from. But this is really just gloss. All reasonable diets do the same thing: cut your calories. If someone is overweight, then I know what is wrong: they eat too much. If someone is trying to lose weight but isn't, then I know what is wrong: they're eating more than they think they are. The marketer's game is artificial difference. Don't get suckered into their mushy subjectivism. They make money by pandering to our desire for uniqueness.

We're all on the same road home to Thanksgiving. In a culture very different from ours, you wouldn't have to think much about how to get home at all -- we'd all clamber onto the same bus and no-one would be left behind. But that's not our situation. Here you've got to ignore as much noise from the car rental companies as you can at the beginning, and travel with other people who know the way. Some have faster cars, AND some are better drivers (not always but often correlated, because it's easier to learn to drive in a nicer car).

ps
Maybe it's the Nietzschean overtones in this thread, but I can't help but find you hypocritical in your condescension to "silly" angry people. Feeling above them by finding them comical or sad is just a passive-aggressive way for conflict-averse people to stroke their egos.

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Post by deadweight » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:33 am

Hello Reitschule,

I appreciate what you wrote and agree with you. When I quoted myself I took what I wrote out of context, the paragraph that preceded it was:

We all know that to lose weight you need to expend more energy (in the form of calories) than you take in. With that knowledge you're all set to lose weight. Go sick. I know we enjoy the search for the perfect weight loss plan for each of us, but is it possible that the search for that plan ultimately sets us back in trying to reach that goal? I think the diet that will work for you is so peculiarly detailed that only you could write the diet book you need. So write it and ignore what I or anyone else has to say.

My point is some people are going to lower their calories by following No-S (for example). Others might do Weight Watchers. Some might gradually lower their calories and other might drop them to 1200 on Day 1. There are different methodologies to get us to where we're burning more calories than we're consuming, and just because one works for me, doesn't mean it will work for you. So if I were to argue that my way is the right way, I'd be implying that there is one "right" way and I don't believe that's true. That's what I meant about it being a personal decision.

As far as your PS goes, I'm not conflict-averse, so it doesn't really apply. And I never called any people silly, I called getting into arguments over people's chosen methods to lose weight silly. To me, someone getting upset over something so cosmically inconsequential as how many teaspoons of sugar a stranger across the globe wants to put in their coffee -- that's either amusing or sad (depending on my mood). If you feel that anger is justified, that's fine, I just disagree.

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Post by reitschule » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:00 pm

Haha that's interesting. I think we do agree in large part then, deadweight. What I want to stress is that it doesn't follow from the fact that there are different useful perspectives on the particulars of weight loss methodology that some perspectives aren't better than others and that you can't help someone else by stating yours. It's helpful to the not-so-thoughtful to give them something reasonable to read, and it can be helpful to thoughtful people to stop them from trying to read everything.

I agree that there is value to carving out your own journey to weight loss, in the sense of doing it mindfully, because it can be an immense boost to your self-confidence and willpower. But the sheer size of the amount of weight loss/fitness/nutrition information and opinion available free on the web alone is too large to try getting to the bottom of it all. The best strategy is to dip in and grab a small chunk of it as food for thought, and then just get to work. There are better things to read and chew on and mull over than weight loss books, sites and blogs.

Losing 60lbs is fantastic and I congratulate you, but after taking a look at your blog I agree with Bushranger's sentiments in his message. I don't see what you hope to accomplish by trying all of the "worst of the worst" diets. That's wallowing to me.

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Post by Dolly » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:16 pm

I'm bored and frustrated by all of this. I'm off!!
Good luck to you all
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Post by bluebunny27 » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:04 am

What ?? This thread's still going ?? ;-)


ButterCream wrote :
"Am I the only one who sees shades of the differences between men and women's methods of encouragement? Young men are encouraged by their coaches by shouts of "Come on, you pantywaists!" (and worse!) I can only speak for myself.
Bushranger, Marc and Reitschule are men.
KCCC, wosnes, Bright Angel, etc., are women.
Maybe we as women should just Rolling Eyes and say, quietly and to ourselves, "Men!"




******** So true ! Young men have lots of testosterone, lol !
We are used to berating each other on a regular basis, that sort of thing is expected. It's a good way to motivate each other, while training, all that. I suppose it can create tensions when we are dealing with some people who are not used to this kind of treatment. I can't really be bothered by anything from years of experience handling this kind of treatment with friends ... It toughens you up so you don't quit later on when you are struggling, even when you train by yourself, maybe a lil' more yelling and a lil' less lovin' produces more result in the long run, lol !
As for myself, I'll just tone it down from now on to avoid more problems, I won't mess too much with what other people are doing, whatever you do ... fine ! Good luck ! Do whatever you want, no problem. I never had any issues with BushRanger personally, too bad he's gone, seemed like he was a good motivator (at least for the young men !)

Cheers !

Marc ;-)

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Post by reinhard » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:59 pm

Guys,

I'm on the verge of deleting this thread (and some accounts). This discussion has gotten way out of hand. I'm astonished and really a little depressed at the lack of civility that's been shown by some of the posters here. It's totally unprecedented in the the 8 years this site has been up.

Please let's let this thread die.

I am sorry I didn't intervene more forcefully sooner, but my day job has been unbelievably distracting these last three weeks and I kept thinking people would just let it rest.

Please stop posting here and let this thread sink into obscurity.

Reinhard

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