Attn Folks at or close to goal, what size are your meals?

levictoria · Post by **levictoria** » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:52 pm

Alright, so I get that I get one "plate full" of food. However, I'm curious, those of you that are close to goal, or at goal and have been doing this a while, how big are those "plates" of food? Would you say 2 cups? 3? 1?

I'm wondering because I'm still putting too much on my plate. I'm slowly putting smaller amounts, but I'd love to know what has worked for some other people.

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:02 am

Don't worry about it. Seriously.

Everyone is different, and eating patterns reflect that. Tiny ladies put less on their plates than big guys. People eat different things, and the density of their food varies.

The point is, over time you gradually figure out what YOU need. The key words there are "gradually" and "you". Don't rush it, and don't compare to others.

If you try to jump right away to what your future self will need, your present self will rebel. You NEED to give yourself time to adjust to what you'll need at your goal weight.

levictoria · Post by **levictoria** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:52 am

KCCC wrote:Don't worry about it. Seriously.

Everyone is different, and eating patterns reflect that. Tiny ladies put less on their plates than big guys. People eat different things, and the density of their food varies.

The point is, over time you gradually figure out what YOU need. The key words there are "gradually" and "you". Don't rush it, and don't compare to others.

If you try to jump right away to what your future self will need, your present self will rebel. You NEED to give yourself time to adjust to what you'll need at your goal weight.

Thanks for responding. This is reassuring to know, but how long will it take for me to figure out how much to eat??

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:56 am

I wish I could give you clear guidelines - I can tell you really want them - but it honestly does vary tremendously. The thing to watch is your general trend - "are you going in the right direction" overall. If you are gradually putting less on your plate, that's a good indicator.

But here are some resources that may help ease your mind...

Up in the "stickies," I wrote a "phases of No-S" that sums up what I see as general patterns for most people. In particular, there are some good comments about that, some of which address time.

You might also look at the testamonials page, where people tend to give overviews of their personal journeys.

Hope that helps, and sorry that I can't give you a cut-and-dried answer.

Sienna · Post by **Sienna** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:34 am

I agree with everything KCCC has said in this thread

But I thought I would share something that kind of helped me as I was starting out. No promises that it would help anyone else (it hasn't, for example, helped my husband who is still struggling with this).

I'll even preface this with I hate calorie counting. I've tried that type of diet before, and the second I don't know how many calories something is I would freak out and give up counting for the day, week, month, or forever. Not having to count calories is one of the things that drew me to NoS. However, because I was worried about portion size (I always used to eat giant portions without feeling satiated), when I was first starting out, I figured out about how many calories I needed to consume to lose about 1 pound per week (what I felt was a safe, reasonable goal for myself). For me that was 1500-1600 calories per day. I then divided that by my 3 meals - so ~500 calories per meal.

And then at each meal, I roughly tried to not exceed 500-600 calories. This involved a fair amount of estimation. Unlike straight up calorie counting, if I didn't know about the caloric content of a particular meal, I just didn't sweat it. And if a meal (usually it was dinner) was over, I didn't really sweat it. Mostly I just tried to be aware of what 500-600 calories looked like and *felt* like. And if it looked way too small, I'd add more, but I always tried to be aware. After a week or two, I started noticing that I actually felt full after each meal, and could mostly make it from one meal to the next without getting that starving stomach-eating-itself feeling. And those days when I thought 500 calories looked too small and heaped on an extra helping? I gradually found myself not finishing my plate. At that point I just kind of stopped paying attention to the calories. And just started judging by what felt right.

I think this accomplished a few things for me.

1) it helped me demonstrate to my body that I could survive and thrive on ~1500 calories a day
2) it helped train my stomach/fullness signals to trigger at about 500 calories. I've noticed that even if I have a super small breakfast and lunch, as long as I eat somewhat slowly, it's hard for me to eat more than 600-700 calories at dinner, because I start to feel full
3) it helped me get a sense of what appropriate portions of certain food are.
4) it showed me that I *could* lose weight if I consumed fewer calories than I was expending (yes, I realize it's science, but sometimes I used to feel like the doomed exception to the rule), which I found very encouraging.

I don't do much calorie counting at all now (though I'd be lying if I said I never looked at nutrition labels - I just don't let them rule my life anymore), and yet my average weightloss is ~1-1.25 pounds/week - frighteningly close to my target. Meaning somehow I've settled right at 1500-1600 calories a day. Without stressing. Without counting. And without a lot of restrictions on what I eat (I'm a vanilla NoSer). Granted, I've only been at this a few months so I'm by no means a life-er yet, but this gives me confidence that I can be.

Good luck, and stay encouraged!

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:32 am

I've read that most of us eat the same volume of food at each meal and I want to say it's between 3-4 cups. What's important isn't the volume of food, but the calorie density of that volume of food. The volume leads to satisfaction. Eat less and you won't be satisfied; eat more and you'll be uncomfortably full.

If you want to lose weight, eat more of the less calorie dense foods -- vegetables and fruits. Eat less of the more calorie dense foods -- starches, meat, dairy products and fat. You don't want to eliminate a food group, just eat less of it.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:03 pm

I absolutely agree with the others. Figuring out what is "enough" is a highly individualized learning curve, based on many factors such as what satisifes you, what fits with your lifestyle, how active you are, your height/weight. KCCC's steps are brilliant/right on target, IMO. If you are naturally decreasing your portion size then it sounds like you are where you need to be.

My own "trick" for keeping portions under control on No S has been to do precisely what Wosnes has said by making less calorie dense foods -- veggies, fruits, beans -- a key part of what I eat. Dietary defaults can also be useful. Homemade veggie based soups are my "dietary default" for lunch on N Days during cooler weather. (This week, for example, I made a big pot of black bean lime soup and have been eating that with a small portion of tortilla chips and a slice of white aged cheddar. I don't have to think about it. I just grab and go.) Since I have a light breakfast and have a veggie-based lunch, I eat a single plateful of whatever I'm serving my family for dinner and don't worry about calories at all. This has worked well for me ... I've never counted a days worth of calories on No S, in fact.

Give it time and you'll find what works for you.

Starla · Post by **Starla** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:13 pm

I'm another one who completely agrees with KCCC; there's no magic number. Learning what and how much YOU need to eat is an essential part of No S. I know I personally had a LOT to learn, but I think taking the time to learn it instead of having it dictated to me is one of the things that have enabled me to stick to No S for over 13 months.

I'm try to eat vegetables and/or fruit at every meal. My N Day lunches are almost always a salad and an orange. It helps me to frame this in a positive way ("I need to add some vegetables") instead of a negative ("I can't eat so many potatoes"). Veggies on the plate leave less room for meat and potatoes, but I don't feel deprived if I concentrate on what I'm adding to the meal.

Good luck! This is a process that should last a lifetime, and you have plenty of time to figure out what works best for you.

levictoria · Post by **levictoria** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:25 pm

Thank you, everyone, for your replies! Such support here! It really does make sense, what all of you have said. I do appreciate the suggestion on estimating calories three times a day. I have counted calories/points for so long, it is kind of ingrained in my head.

I realized I have two problems going on here... fear that I'm going to blow up like a balloon on this since I'm not counting anything, and impatience that I'm not losing weight yet!

When I've started a new diet in the past, I would generally lose 3-5lbs the first week. Of course, I'd gain it all back eventually, but I would always feel such a sense of accomplishment, and that I was headed in the right direction.

So far, I've gained about three pounds. I know I need to allow for an adjustment period. I guess it's just tough because I want to see results now! I want the proof that I'm not going to be a size bigger at the end of the month.

So, where am I taking this from here? Well, I'm going to give myself the 21 days of N-Days before I really judge this plan. I am also going to estimate, though not count and track, how many calories I'm eating at each meal. I'm not sure why I didn't think to do that sooner. Of course, I'm not going to limit my calories, but rather, just observe how much I'm eating.

I feel confident that I can follow this plan. In terms of behavior modification, I think the No S Diet is definitely an attainable goal for the rest of my life. My concerns are more with the number that I see on the scale. Currently, I'm over 30lbs over weight, so its tough for me to not judge my results without checking out the numbers on the scale.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:57 pm

I know people keep talking about this being individual but I have to say it worries me a bit to look at what people who've lost now eat. It often sounds like a small amount of food at each meal to me. That said, I know my breakfast is in the 300-400 calorie range most days, and lunch and dinner are about 500, give or take 50-to 100. (I know this from past calorie counting. I don't aim at these amounts. It's just what the count is when I eat a variety of food groups.) Then I have coffee with milk and cocoa, which adds another 100. However, when I look at others' records and estimate their food, it seems like even less, yet I know I would get very hungry on much less food. This is with eating about half of my food comprised of either fruits, veggies, or very high-fiber grain choices. Though this feels like enough food during the week, for some reason I am resisting eating like this on the weekends, thinking that it's just not enough food and I'm going to destroy my metabolism and have to end up eating more like a bird every year! Hogwash, I know! But the fear is there.

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:58 pm

We are all different.
I am a small, older female with a normal BMI.
I count calories, but the size of my meals is rather consistent.

Most of my meals consist of a maximum of about 1 cup in volume unless I have salad.
One meal would be about 1 1/2 cups if I have a serving of meat,
or casserole along with green salad, as a green salad would be about a cup,
or if my meal was soup and salad, it would be about 2 cups. 1 cup soup, 1 cup salad.

BTW, you CANNOT destroy your metabolism.
That is a MYTH, which has been totally disproven through research.
It is out of your control.
Your body works the way your body works.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:06 pm

I'd give it more than 21 days. At 21 days, you're still working on the habits.

ZippaDee · Post by **ZippaDee** » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:26 pm

Hmmm? I am pretty much a newcomer....been here before, but back again! This is only day two for me. This convo is a bit confusing to me though as I thought No S was all about No Sweets, No Snacks, No Seconds...end of story. All this counting discussion here makes this sound like all the diets I've been on before, which is what I do NOT want! I'm done counting, counting, counting.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:00 am

ZippaDee wrote:Hmmm? I am pretty much a newcomer....been here before, but back again! This is only day two for me. This convo is a bit confusing to me though as I thought No S was all about No Sweets, No Snacks, No Seconds...end of story. All this counting discussion here makes this sound like all the diets I've been on before, which is what I do NOT want! I'm done counting, counting, counting.

Welcome!

Yes, No S is about "No Sweets, No Snacks, No Seconds." For many people that is the end of story and sticking to the rules and building habit is the only thing that ever needs to be focused on at first and, hopefully, ever.

(There are cases where individuals either fail to lose weight on No S or gain weight on No S or need to tweak system to fit their individual needs. In these situations, folks may ultimately opt to modify the basic No S system. But this certainly isn't something to worry about at first and may not ever be necessary.)

Sienna · Post by **Sienna** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:06 am

Hi ZippaDee, welcome to NoS! Don't let us confuse you! I'm not exactly a veteran at this, but since I brought up calorie monitoring upthread, I just wanted to assure you that NoS isn't (or doesn't have to be) about calorie counting.

Although I counted/monitored calories at the start, it was mostly my way of making sure I was eating reasonably sized meals. To be honest, I had horrible eating habits prior to this - some combination of not eating anything all day and then binging when I got home and perma-snacking. I didn't really know what a "meal" should look like. I didn't want to overdo it (or underdo it - but given my "be prepared" mentality it would probably have been overdo it) so I used calories as a guide to help establish that.

But I don't think I've actually counted calories since late July/early August. And I'm doing just as well as when I actually tracked them. For me personally, it was about learning to trust myself.

Just because someone on NoS chose to count calories for a short period or even forever, doesn't mean that YOU have to in order to be on NoS. In fact, I think the flexibility and customizability of NoS is one of the reasons it is so successful. We aren't all genetically identical and perhaps even more importantly we aren't all psychologically identical. Which is why different tweaks/tricks/styles work for different people.

clarinetgal · Post by **clarinetgal** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:08 am

I'm kind of doing what Sienna is doing. I loosely count calories, but I don't make a huge deal out of it, don't log anything or track it, etc... What really helps me when I want to lose weight is I eat all of my meals on 8 inch plates. I know from past experience counting calories that it's hard to get more than 500-600 calories onto an 8 inch plate. Yes, it's possible, if you fill that plate with really fatty foods, but if you do what others have said, which is fill half a plate with meat and starch and half with fruit and veggies, you'll easily have about a 500 calorie meal. I know for me, since switching to 8 inch plates, I always leave my meals feeling pleasantly full, but by no means stuffed.

ZippaDee · Post by **ZippaDee** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:37 am

Thanks so much for your input Sophia and Sienna! No counting for me at this point...just straight Vanilla NoS! Onward to day 3.

Pernetty · Post by **Pernetty** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:01 am

Le Victoria,
I have read your blog and I really sympathize with you. You have had a struggle. I think it's important to know that you won't be losing 3 - 5 pounds per week initially on this diet. This diet will bring you sanity, clarity, but not significant weight loss in the beginning (based on my limited research). Maybe 3 pounds the first month if you're lucky. But it is a great healer of "failed diets of the past", which it seems is your fate.
Enjoy the process without worrying too much about the outcome. Just FYI, I have chosen to meld the 3 plates a-day with calorie counting.
I have never counted before, but with all the new technology it really is enlightening for me.

For you, for now, enjoy the 3 plate process and don't worry too much about the details. Enjoy the habits that you are building.

All the best,
Pernetty

levictoria · Post by **levictoria** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Pernetty wrote:Le Victoria,
I have read your blog and I really sympathize with you. You have had a struggle. I think it's important to know that you won't be losing 3 - 5 pounds per week initially on this diet. This diet will bring you sanity, clarity, but not significant weight loss in the beginning (based on my limited research). Maybe 3 pounds the first month if you're lucky. But it is a great healer of "failed diets of the past", which it seems is your fate.
Enjoy the process without worrying too much about the outcome. Just FYI, I have chosen to meld the 3 plates a-day with calorie counting.
I have never counted before, but with all the new technology it really is enlightening for me.

For you, for now, enjoy the 3 plate process and don't worry too much about the details. Enjoy the habits that you are building.

All the best,
Pernetty

Pernetty- Thank you for your in put. Yes, it's been a struggle for me, and I am trying to get this food situation under control so I can move on with my life. It's reassuring to know that weight loss is slow using these methods. That is TOTALLY fine by me. To be honest, I wouldn't be speaking up so much if there was any weight loss, or even if my weight was maintaining. I've just been concerned since I seem to be gaining.

ZippaDee- Hello there! Pay NO attention to this post. Reinhart specifically states in his book to not "do anything stupid." Unfortunately, I have merely been doing something not so smart, causing a weight gain, so I'm just overly evaluating the plan! It seems most people who do this diet succeed!

wosnes- Yes, 21 days may not be enough for me to really make a judgement. You have a really valid point.

The one thing I am going to do is use my hands as a simple measuring tool at meals. I'm going to cut my meals down so they will fit in about the size of my two cupped hands. It seems like a reasonable size for a meal for me...and my hands are always there as a reminder!

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:09 pm

Funny you should say that about your hands. I once followed a plan that suggested dieters use, at each meal, the palm of their hand as the measure of a serving of protein, the amount of dried grain they could hold in a fist as the measure of starch at a meal (I use the approximate volume of one-to-two fists of cooked grain, depending on my hunger), and a thumb's volume of fat. As you say, you've always got your hands with you.

jellybeans01 · Post by **jellybeans01** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:27 pm

Right now I am running a lot so I am eating a little more. However, at around 129ish I do keep portions minimized and I usually just eat a bowl of fruit for breakfast.

oolala53 · Post by **oolala53** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:57 pm

jellybeans, I'm curious to know how hungry you get between breakfast and lunch and how many hours you typically go between them. TX!

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:28 pm

oolala53 wrote:I know people keep talking about this being individual but I have to say it worries me a bit to look at what people who've lost now eat. It often sounds like a small amount of food at each meal to me. That said, I know my breakfast is in the 300-400 calorie range most days, and lunch and dinner are about 500, give or take 50-to 100. (I know this from past calorie counting. I don't aim at these amounts. It's just what the count is when I eat a variety of food groups.) Then I have coffee with milk and cocoa, which adds another 100. However, when I look at others' records and estimate their food, it seems like even less, yet I know I would get very hungry on much less food. This is with eating about half of my food comprised of either fruits, veggies, or very high-fiber grain choices. Though this feels like enough food during the week, for some reason I am resisting eating like this on the weekends, thinking that it's just not enough food and I'm going to destroy my metabolism and have to end up eating more like a bird every year! Hogwash, I know! But the fear is there.

Some reactions...
- I also look at some people's food intake and think "that's so little!" (or sometimes "that's a lot!")... and then I let it go. The important thing is that I'm eating what's right FOR ME. I don't expect it to match anyone else's.
- AND... I don't even expect my current needs to match my OWN intake at another point in time. What feels comfortable to me now - genuinely so - might have felt like too little earlier in the process. This is important - I don't know about you, but I often derail myself by not allowing myself to "be where I am" - especially when I'm a beginner.
- On the wild S-days... I guess it took almost 2 years for mine to become "mostly sane." That's what a long history of dieting will do to you! They mostly are now. (Mostly. We won't talk about last weekend.

) FOR ME, things that helped included "positive goals" (drink more water, remember veggies, eat three meals, plan meals I like, plan for a special treat...) and some limited guidelines on HOW I eat (eat sitting down, on a plate, in public - that is, without sneaking, etc.) What did NOT help was any kind of restrictive goal (only one S, that kind of thing), which immediately tipped me into "diet head" panic. Oh, and time helped. As the N-days became more and more ingrained, they really did start "bleeding over" into S-days.

I am sharing this in the hope that it will help you a bit... by the time my meals got smaller and my S-days more sane, it felt GOOD. Not like a diet, like a way of eating that was normal and comfortable. In fact, I would honestly say that I enjoy food MORE than I ever used to. But where I am not is not where I started, and I don't think I could have gone faster and felt this comfortable.

Hope this helps you to relax a bit...

levictoria · Post by **levictoria** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:20 pm

Yes, I am amazed at what a small amount of food some folks eat. Though, many times, I'll just have a banana for breakfast myself, because I'm not all that hungry!

I really think patience is key. This hand measurement idea does seem to be helping me, as it seems that I've already lost some of the 5lbs I was talking about just from getting my meals in check. It's actually not difficult either. Sometimes, I'm saying to myself, "And, I'm supposed to be full from just eating THAT?" But then, I'll eat it, and I'm actually about 80% full, as someone else suggested. That's more than enough. Then, I'll have some tea.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:24 pm

I've found that sometimes immediately after I finish a meal I still feel "hungry." But 20-30 minutes later, I no longer have the hungry feeling. If I would have put more on a plate (not seconds, but bigger servings) and finished it, I would have been stuffed.

Nicest of the Damned · Post by **Nicest of the Damned** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:29 pm

wosnes wrote:I've found that sometimes immediately after I finish a meal I still feel "hungry." But 20-30 minutes later, I no longer have the hungry feeling. If I would have put more on a plate (not seconds, but bigger servings) and finished it, I would have been stuffed.

When I first started No S, I got this at the end of meals all the time. I still felt hungry at the end, and resented having to stop eating. But then, 20 or 30 minutes later, I'd realize I wasn't still hungry after all.

Before I started No S, I would eat until I was full at meals. Feeling unpleasantly stuffed 20 or 30 minutes later was a regular occurrence, at a guess happening at least once a week.

sophiasapientia · Post by **sophiasapientia** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:50 pm

... by the time my meals got smaller and my S-days more sane, it felt GOOD. Not like a diet, like a way of eating that was normal and comfortable. In fact, I would honestly say that I enjoy food MORE than I ever used to. But where I am not is not where I started, and I don't think I could have gone faster and felt this comfortable.

Absolutely! My meals may seem somewhat small now but, when I look back on my food log from when I first found No S, I ate a lot more. I used bigger plates and just consumed more food in general on N days and on S days. And I also drank some calories -- in the way of fruit juice, etc -- which I rarely do on N Days now. Finding out what is enough for me, without hunger or excess, has been a process of self-discovery and not one that could be rushed or determined by anyone else.

I think it bears repeating, too, that we are all different. We are different heights, different ages, different starting weights, different activity levels and have different caloric needs to sustain ourselves. Given that, what may seem like a small amount of food for some may very well be an adequate amount for someone who is on the smaller &/or shorter &/or older &/or sedentary end of the specturm.

Murphysraven · Post by **Murphysraven** » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:34 pm

I've been following a semi diabetic meal plating technique since my roommate is type 2 diabetic and we eat dinner as a household. I've found it has helped me control portions and lose a little more weight just by following some of the things he's learned about eating for type 2. I usually only do this at dinner since that is when we all eat together.

example:
Using your dinner plate, put an imaginary line down the middle of the plate.
Then on one side, cut it again so you will have 3 sections on your plate.
Fill the largest section with non-starchy vegetables
Now in one of the small sections, put starchy foods
And then on the other small section, put your meat or meat substitutes

I also found these serving sizes that I use as a psudo guideline

â€¢Meat, fish, poultryâ€”3 oz. (about the size of the palm of your hand)
â€¢Cheeseâ€”1 oz. (about the size of your thumb)
â€¢Milk, yogurt, fresh vegetablesâ€”1 cup (about the size of a tennis ball)
â€¢Breadâ€”one slice
â€¢Rice or cooked pastaâ€”â…“ cup
â€¢Potato or cornâ€”Â½ cup
â€¢Dry cerealâ€”Â¾ cup

Now I don't always adhear to these portion sizes. But it allows me some knowledge that when I have potatoes and put a big mound on my plate, i can estimate it's X number of servings and that helps me be realistic with what I am actually eating.

I am a big cheese eater and I could never limit myself to 1 oz of cheese. but it's helped me cut back a little and also to find other cheeses I enjoy that I don't need to use in large quantities (like goat cheese and feta on salads and such)

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:47 pm

Murphysraven wrote:I've been following a semi diabetic meal plating technique since my roommate is type 2 diabetic and we eat dinner as a household. I've found it has helped me control portions and lose a little more weight just by following some of the things he's learned about eating for type 2. I usually only do this at dinner since that is when we all eat together.

example:
Using your dinner plate, put an imaginary line down the middle of the plate.
Then on one side, cut it again so you will have 3 sections on your plate.
Fill the largest section with non-starchy vegetables
Now in one of the small sections, put starchy foods
And then on the other small section, put your meat or meat substitutes

I also found these serving sizes that I use as a psudo guideline

â€¢Meat, fish, poultryâ€”3 oz. (about the size of the palm of your hand)
â€¢Cheeseâ€”1 oz. (about the size of your thumb)
â€¢Milk, yogurt, fresh vegetablesâ€”1 cup (about the size of a tennis ball)
â€¢Breadâ€”one slice
â€¢Rice or cooked pastaâ€”â…“ cup
â€¢Potato or cornâ€”Â½ cup
â€¢Dry cerealâ€”Â¾ cup

Now I don't always adhear to these portion sizes. But it allows me some knowledge that when I have potatoes and put a big mound on my plate, i can estimate it's X number of servings and that helps me be realistic with what I am actually eating.

I am a big cheese eater and I could never limit myself to 1 oz of cheese. but it's helped me cut back a little and also to find other cheeses I enjoy that I don't need to use in large quantities (like goat cheese and feta on salads and such)

I've been using that plating technique for some years now. I know where I first read about, I just don't remember when that was, but I know it's been nearly 10 years. I'm pretty good with the portion sizes for meat and starches, too. I fill about a third of the plate with casseroles, lasagna and similar dishes and the rest with vegetables and usually bread.