On "Diet Camps"

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:58 pm

"A Caveman and a Vegan walk into a bar..."

http://summertomato.com/a-caveman-and-a ... eedfetcher

Amusing, with a core of truth. Don't miss the comments.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:11 pm

This comment is so true: "Only wealthy westerners can afford to choose either diet and still be healthy. Everyone else in the world eats whatâ€™s available and donâ€™t have the resources to join these self-righteous 'diet camps.'"

"Wealthy" is relative. Many of our poorest are wealthy compared to others in the world.

I still think it comes down to "eat real food." Exactly what food isn't terribly important. I do have to admit that I'm getting very tired of the promotion of all the various camps. I just start to get cranky when I hear about them.

Nicest of the Damned · Post by **Nicest of the Damned** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:18 pm

wosnes wrote:I still think it comes down to "eat real food." Exactly what food isn't terribly important. I do have to admit that I'm getting very tired of the promotion of all the various camps. I just start to get cranky when I hear about them.

"Not too much" is important, too. If you eat a healthy diet, but too much of it, you will be overweight. Pre-No-S, I ate a mostly Mediterranean and Asian diet, with olive oil being the fat I used in probably 90% of my cooking, and not too much red meat. I was trying to eat more whole grains. Most doctors would say that was a pretty healthy diet. The problem was, I was eating too much of it.

The average size of dinner plates, and especially restaurant plates, increased during the 20th century. Eating as much as we do now is a new phenomenon, historically speaking.

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:10 pm

wosnes wrote: I still think it comes down to "eat real food." Exactly what food isn't terribly important. I do have to admit that I'm getting very tired of the promotion of all the various camps. I just start to get cranky when I hear about them.

Yes, one of the first few comments pointed out that both "camps" in the little vignette had that in common: They did NOT eat processed junk. I thought that was one of the best points made.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:05 pm

KCCC wrote: Yes, one of the first few comments pointed out that both "camps" in the little vignette had that in common: They did NOT eat processed junk. I thought that was one of the best points made.

That's one of the things I noticed about the various traditional diets. They don't tend to have problems until those things are introduced to their diet.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:15 pm

wosnes wrote:
KCCC wrote: Yes, one of the first few comments pointed out that both "camps" in the little vignette had that in common: They did NOT eat processed junk. I thought that was one of the best points made.
That's one of the things I noticed about the various traditional diets. They don't tend to have problems until those things are introduced to their diet.

It strikes me that there's a dual factor at work when "the processed junk" displaces items from a traditional diet - the "processed junk" is presumably cheaper than the traditional food. Either it's being given free, or is available with less input required than the traditional item - if the new processed stuff was expensive, it wouldn't be affordable enough to impact the traditional diet.

So, "cheaper" must equate to less effort expended to feed oneself, and that is the second effect of this "processed junk" - it is accompanied by a decline in the level physical activity, and perhaps it is these two factors together that cause such great harm.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:37 pm

I don't know what food costs across the Pond. (IIRC, you live in the UK).

I spend about 60 quid a week on groceries for a family of three, but I buy almost no pre-processed food. If I were buying pre-packaged food, I'd be spending more.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:45 pm

NoelFigart wrote:I don't know what food costs across the Pond. (IIRC, you live in the UK).

I spend about 60 quid a week on groceries for a family of three, but I buy almost no pre-processed food. If I were buying pre-packaged food, I'd be spending more.

My remarks were addressing the way processed food displaces traditional foods when introduced by "advanced" interlopers - like Weston Price was observing amongst tribal peoples.

I agree in my own environment some processed stuff is more pricey than "real" food items - breakfast cereals cost far more than plain rolled oats for example, but, on the other hand, white flour is cheaper than wholemeal, battery eggs are cheaper than free range organic eggs, "factory" chicken is cheaper than free range or organic - the picture is complex here.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:55 pm

Well, I don't buy organic produce raised by virgin elves and picked by the light of the first new moon when Venus is in Capricorn, either. I don't think that's necessary no matter what "organic" farmers seem to think.

But I buy hunks o'meat, veggies I have to cut up, big bags of WHITE flour and whatever the cheap eggs are. That's still miles better than meals in a box.

Aleria · Post by **Aleria** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:31 am

I'm firmly in the 'do whatever works for you camp' but what works for me is cheap, real food. I hate it when my boyfriend tries to tell me that you can't eat healthy for cheap! You just have to put some time and effort into it and be willing to make trade offs - for example, I very rarely eat meat. I'm not vegetarian, it's just too expensive. So I eat eggs, or lentils, or beans or one of the dozens of other protein sources. Then the money can go to other things, like fresh or frozen veggies.

Blithe Morning · Post by **Blithe Morning** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:45 pm

I'm in the real food category myself (mostly). What I mean by real food means is anything I don't make from scratch has to have ingredients that I can pronounce and could find on my grocer's shelf. I do allow myself a little wiggle room i.e. Panko bread crumbs as they have dextrose.

Things I buy prepared: tomatoes, bbq beans, ranch & blue cheese salad dressings (for my hubby and son, I use a homemade balsamic vinagrette) shredded wheat cereal, sandwich bread, spaghetti sauce, pasta, tomatoes, green chilies, lunch meats, potato chips, ice cream, some cookies, Panko bread crumbs, ketchup & mustard and sometimes meat/veggie stock. I keep a cheese/veggie frozen pizza on hand for nights when things fall apart. My hubby LIKES Banquet frozen dinners for lunch.

I use white flour. I don't use virgin elf farmed food. I prefer local when I can get it although I do eat tomatoes in winter and bananas. I am trying to eat more seasonally. This is a challenge at my latitude as the energy inputs for any kind of fresh or frozen vegetable are considerable. (Less for frozen local than fresh, I would imagine).

Speaking of local, this made me laugh: Peter and Nance ask about the chicken

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:49 pm

There are so many problems with processed foods it's difficult to know where to start.

Because I just saw something about this on the news, one could start with added sugar. It's in everything and not only is it in everything, it's in it in unnecessarily or unusually large amounts and in things that make you wonder why it's there.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:46 pm

Sugar is a preservative, wosnes.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:00 pm

NoelFigart wrote:Well, I don't buy organic produce raised by virgin elves and picked by the light of the first new moon when Venus is in Capricorn, either. I don't think that's necessary no matter what "organic" farmers seem to think.

But I buy hunks o'meat, veggies I have to cut up, big bags of WHITE flour and whatever the cheap eggs are. That's still miles better than meals in a box.

Joking apart - I guess you don't seriously dispute that organic food is actually better do you? What we call organic agriculture was, for most of human history, totally normal and standard. Making organic sound like some sort of crank obsession is a reflection of how successfully agribusiness has marginalised real food. Avoiding pesticides in plants and artificial hormones in meat and milk don't sound like crank issues to me.

Then there's the matter of animal welfare - standards are far higher in organic animal husbandry. Organic food tends to be more labour intensive, with a greater emphasis on quality - but what is so silly about that?

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:06 pm

wosnes wrote:There are so many problems with processed foods it's difficult to know where to start.

Because I just saw something about this on the news, one could start with added sugar. It's in everything and not only is it in everything, it's in it in unnecessarily or unusually large amounts and in things that make you wonder why it's there.

Many years ago a visitor from France said "Your food takes some getting used to" When asked what he meant, he replied "Sugar in everything". To the French putting sugar in ham, for example, was unthinkable, but I'd never even noticed it was there. The French have as much need to preserve food as we do here in the UK but seem to manage to do it with far less sugar.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:21 pm

Graham wrote:Joking apart - I guess you don't seriously dispute that organic food is actually better do you? What we call organic agriculture was, for most of human history, totally normal and standard.

Yes, but so was famine.

Making organic sound like some sort of crank obsession is a reflection of how successfully agribusiness has marginalised real food. Avoiding pesticides in plants and artificial hormones in meat and milk don't sound like crank issues to me.

Then there's the matter of animal welfare - standards are far higher in organic animal husbandry. Organic food tends to be more labour intensive, with a greater emphasis on quality - but what is so silly about that?

I think for a lot of people who just have not yet educated themselves to be able to read a scientific study and evaluate it, yes, it is an incredibly foolish crank obsession.

The problems of chemical use are genuine and real, but I get very, VERY tired of people freaking out from a bunch of inaccurate data from pop magazines.

If you can't stay awake over the peer-reviewed study in the science journal, you're not qualified to have an opinion.

Blithe Morning · Post by **Blithe Morning** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:49 pm

IIRC, sugar also influences "mouth feel".

Graham · Post by **Graham** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:03 pm

NoelFigart wrote:
Graham wrote:Joking apart - I guess you don't seriously dispute that organic food is actually better do you? What we call organic agriculture was, for most of human history, totally normal and standard.
Yes, but so was famine.

Making organic sound like some sort of crank obsession is a reflection of how successfully agribusiness has marginalised real food. Avoiding pesticides in plants and artificial hormones in meat and milk don't sound like crank issues to me.

Then there's the matter of animal welfare - standards are far higher in organic animal husbandry. Organic food tends to be more labour intensive, with a greater emphasis on quality - but what is so silly about that?
I think for a lot of people who just have not yet educated themselves to be able to read a scientific study and evaluate it, yes, it is an incredibly foolish crank obsession.

The problems of chemical use are genuine and real, but I get very, VERY tired of people freaking out from a bunch of inaccurate data from pop magazines.

If you can't stay awake over the peer-reviewed study in the science journal, you're not qualified to have an opinion.

Famines are still happening - so what's your point? Again, it is possible to appreciate the damage done over time to soils by artificial fertilizers without reading a science journal, though I can read them, if it was to me you addressed your remarks.

The taste of organic fruit and vegetables also requires no doctorate to appreciate - you can be smart without being an academic - if you wish to vent your scorn, perhaps you could just aim at those who deserve it?

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:36 pm

In The Omnivore's Dilemma Michael Pollan wrote that industrialized farming, both meat and plants, is relatively new and still not in common practice throughout the world. Farming in many other places is organic, whether or not it's called "organic."

I know that in parts of Europe (France, Italy and Greece come to mind) certain products can only be made in the ways they've been made for centuries.

Aleria · Post by **Aleria** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Graham wrote:
NoelFigart wrote:Well, I don't buy organic produce raised by virgin elves and picked by the light of the first new moon when Venus is in Capricorn, either. I don't think that's necessary no matter what "organic" farmers seem to think.

But I buy hunks o'meat, veggies I have to cut up, big bags of WHITE flour and whatever the cheap eggs are. That's still miles better than meals in a box.
Joking apart - I guess you don't seriously dispute that organic food is actually better do you? What we call organic agriculture was, for most of human history, totally normal and standard. Making organic sound like some sort of crank obsession is a reflection of how successfully agribusiness has marginalised real food. Avoiding pesticides in plants and artificial hormones in meat and milk don't sound like crank issues to me.

Then there's the matter of animal welfare - standards are far higher in organic animal husbandry. Organic food tends to be more labour intensive, with a greater emphasis on quality - but what is so silly about that?

I find the obsession with "CERTIFIED" Organic silly, as often enough, your local farmer will be theoretically organic, but not have the money to get certified. I know this, as my family worked for a farm like this, selling vegetables and berries at a farmer's market. We got many "Are you organic?" questions. We weren't certified, but we do use organic fertilizer and no pesticides. Sticker-labelled organic isn't the be all, end all of agriculture. Also, by not paying for certification, we were able to offer our produce at a much lower price to the consumer. The organic stall at the other end of the market charged twice as much for produce half the size of ours.

Over43 · Post by **Over43** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:48 pm

"You should see my blood work, it's pristine!" I love that.

I like MB's comment, which was already shared here concerning "First Worlders." Only in Western Europe and North america do we have the luxury of worrying about these issues. My daughter was a vegan for awhile and I kept trying to tell her it was a mirage of the miracle of refrigerated transportation.

I also got a kick out of the "kid of hippies" who at 25 had an endocrinologist, ate fish, poultry, pork, etc. but not beef because he didn't want to stray to far from his parents??? I bet that makes the pigs feel better.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:54 pm

Let me appeal to everyone to take a deep breath before we wade too deeply into an organic produce flame war, shall we? I know there are probably a lot of interesting and highly controversial issues to be discussed, there, but I'm pretty sure here isn't the place to discuss them, and it has the potential to end very badly.

One nice thing about NoS is that everyone can eat what they like!

(EDIT: Of course, anyone can discuss anything they want ... I just think this is somewhere between politics and religion in terms of Internet Danger Level.)

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:17 pm

Over43 wrote:"You should see my blood work, it's pristine!" I love that.

...
I also got a kick out of the "kid of hippies" who at 25 had an endocrinologist, ate fish, poultry, pork, etc. but not beef because he didn't want to stray to far from his parents??? I bet that makes the pigs feel better.

I thought the whole article - as well as the comments - was hysterical.

And not far from some real conversations I've witnessed.