Things that you consider a "sweet"

annerodriguez8 · Post by **annerodriguez8** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:19 pm

Okay, this is my one gray area with the No S diet (which, by the way, I LOVE the idea of. Finally a diet that doesn't promote an eating disorder.

For example, when I order a mocha latte in the morning, is that a "sweet"??

When I eat a homemade, moderate (not jumbo) pumpkin muffin that indeed tastes very sweet, is that a sweet??

I know that we are supposed to just use our common sense here but I'm really struggling with it.

I also know that if I were to cut out added sugar altogether, I'd go crazy, so I know that there are some things that I don't consider a "sweet" when following this diet because I just can't cut out those things altogether, like fruit flavored yogurt or things like that.

THe obvious ones, the things that are desserts, are, well, obvious. Ice cream, cookies, and jumbo pumpkin muffins from Starbucks with cream cheese icing inside are sweets. But I have a hard time with the in betweens and I want a clear line. Any suggestions?

herbsgirl · Post by **herbsgirl** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:38 pm

I consider cookies, muffins, pies, cakes, doughnuts, bars, cream puffs, all Sweets. A little jelly, honey is ok, (NOT alot) and cereal with a little sugar, NOT sugar laden.

Fruit yogurt is ok, Fruit is OK. Just mainly stuff that has tons of sugar//
Thats what I go by.

NoelFigart · Post by **NoelFigart** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:34 pm

If you're buying a mocha latte at a Starbucks or something, you're looking at a drink with as much sugar as a soda. I consider sodas sweets.

The muffin? Personally, I consider it cakelike enough that it'd be a sweet for ME, but I could see calling it a gray area.

One way you could look at it. If you had a bite of something, then had a white grape, would the grape in contrast taste a little tart? If so, then it's almost certainly a sweet as grapes are some incredibly sweet fruits.

r.jean · Post by **r.jean** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:52 pm

I would consider a mocha latte a sweet but not a small plain muffin with no chocolate chips or cinnamon sugar or something extra sweet. I rarely eat muffins but I will eat them when having a continental breakfast out somewhere if they are the least sweet choice.

That said, I think avoiding the middle of the road items is not as important as avoiding the obvious ones and sticking to the other rules.

annerodriguez8 · Post by **annerodriguez8** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:09 am

Thanks...
I think I see the light (or should I say Lite

.) Also, I like the comparison to a soda. If it has as much sugar as a soda, it's clearly a sweet. Not sure that that is actually the case with the mocha latte, but still, I like the idea of having a clear comparison.

Also, I agree about the muffin. It's a sweet. If it were larger and had icing on top, it would be exactly the same as a slice of CAKE. So maybe I need to reform my recipe.

And maybe I should rewrite my no "s" rule to say something like...nothing that could pass for dessert if it had a light dollop of icing on top. Or something. Still kind of reaching for as clear a definition as possible.

Blithe Morning · Post by **Blithe Morning** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:17 am

A latte is not a sweet. A mocha latte is because it has chocolate syrup.

Corn muffins that are a side with dinner is not a sweet. A fruit muffin (or whatever) as a breakfast item is.

NoSnacker · Post by **NoSnacker** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:26 am

I think muffins would be a breakfast food, not so sure about the latte mocha drink...maybe a skim milk latte would be a nice alternative with splenda or sugar? We are allowed sugar in coffee per the No S book.

I had the pumpkin muffin and they are pretty sweet and big...But then again, if you deprive yourself will it lead to a binge or feeling deprived...perhaps 1/2 one day and the other 1/2 the other day.

I have honey in my morning tea..if one is allowed sugar I would think honey has some good qualities to it.

I kind of follow what Reinhard says..if you have to think about it then it probably wouldn't be considered a sweet.

kccc · Post by **kccc** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:16 am

One of the hard things - and the good things - about No-S is that you have to answer those questions for yourself.

My definition of "sweet" has changed over time. I'm less concerned about a little added sugar in a recipe, and I put it in my coffee. But I no longer eat pre-sweetened yogurt (I buy plain, and add a bit of honey). And muffins are right out in my book.

But... your mileage may vary. Most people think flavored yogurt is fine. Some people consider "homemade" reasonably-sized muffins to be okay, but the ginormous bought ones NOT okay.

I would personally avoid drinks that have more than 1 tsp of sugar (mocha=sugar) OR that you drink all day. Again, you have to decide for yourself.

The questions I'd ask:
1) Can you draw a clear line around what is/isn't okay?
2) Are your choices working for you, both in terms of results AND in terms of habit-building?

If cutting out the obvious stuff is working, then the gray stuff is not much of an issue... unless it affects habit.

Good luck!

SkyKitty · Post by **SkyKitty** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:13 am

For me as well, defining a 'sweet' is part common sense and part personal context.

I have a fruit yogurt (I can't stand plain yogurt) with breakfast every day. But at any other time I would consider it out of bounds, because it would feel like a snack or a dessert.

There is no kind of cake, muffin, cookie or biscuit I wouldn't consider a sweet.

However I regularly drink chocolate ovaltine (I don't know if this is found outside UK, like a hot chocolate made with water but its got a nice sort of malty flavour). I don't consider it a sweet because it's a drink made with just powder and water, nothing else added. I would have a hot chocolate made with water at home but I wouldn't have a hot chocolate from Starbucks (or anywhere similar) because I suspect they might add more cream and sugar etc.

Sometimes I think the definition depends on your relationship to the food as well. I count crisps (or potato chips) as an S food even though they are not sweet and I could easily fit them on a plate, say with a sandwich as a meal. But they are a binge trigger food for me, and I need to class them as an S food, like a sweet.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:00 pm

It's definitely a matter of refining your personal definitions and seeing what works for you.

That said, I think muffins have gotten a free ride for long enough, darn it. Nobody thinks cupcakes are health food, but somehow because some muffins have bran in them, the entire category basks in a wholesome healthy glow of reflected glory? Madness!

If muffins were called "small cakes", we wouldn't have this problem. (Of course, maybe your home-made muffins are perfectly healthy objects. The ones I see in stores or bakeries seem like pretty close cousins to cupcakes, so they're clearly an S in my book.)

annerodriguez8 · Post by **annerodriguez8** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:19 pm

DaveMc wrote:It's definitely a matter of refining your personal definitions and seeing what works for you.

That said, I think muffins have gotten a free ride for long enough, darn it. Nobody thinks cupcakes are health food, but somehow because some muffins have bran in them, the entire category basks in a wholesome healthy glow of reflected glory? Madness! If muffins were called "small cakes", we wouldn't have this problem. (Of course, maybe your home-made muffins are perfectly healthy objects. The ones I see in stores or bakeries seem like pretty close cousins to cupcakes, so they're clearly an S in my book.)

Yes....well said. Muffins...the sneaky bastards of dieting!

Andie · Post by **Andie** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:44 pm

It is a gray area, and you have to decide for yourself. You may want to allow these things for now until your weight loss plateaus, then consider re-classifying some of them.

Personally for me: Mocha latte = sweet, latte with a couple of teaspoons of sugar would be okay. Home made muffin with fruit=okay, store bought or coffee shop muffin = sweet. Fruit Yogurt= okay.

Clarica · Post by **Clarica** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:27 pm

I don't think of homemade muffins as sweets, unless someone puts frosting on them.

The sugar in my muffins is NOTHING compared to cafe or costco muffins, though. ditto on the oil.

Any traditional breakfast food, for me, is not a sweet. Thats muffins, waffles, pancakes, french toast, croissants, cinnamon rolls, and on and on and on.

But I don't like them enough to eat them even once a week, so it doesn't really matter, for me.

sheepish · Post by **sheepish** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:24 am

I think it's more about your attitude to the food than it is the nutritional content of the food. If you replace cake after a meal with a muffin after a meal, I think that's a sweet - you're clearly avoiding breaking your habit of a sweet after a meal by substituting something that you can pretend isn't a sweet. Or, if you have an ice lolly instead of ice-cream for pudding, I think that's a sweet but maybe it's not if you're having it instead of a glass of juice in hot weather.

For me personally, I would definitely count the muffin as a sweet - no matter when I was eating it. The things are basically cakes. The mocha - I think I'm with the person upthread who said that they would count it as a sweet if made with milk and bought from Starbucks but that hot chocolate made just with hot water is ok.

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:08 am

KCCC wrote:One of the hard things - and the good things - about No-S is that you have to answer those questions for yourself.

My definition of "sweet" has changed over time. I'm less concerned about a little added sugar in a recipe, and I put it in my coffee. But I no longer eat pre-sweetened yogurt (I buy plain, and add a bit of honey). And muffins are right out in my book.

But... your mileage may vary. Most people think flavored yogurt is fine. Some people consider "homemade" reasonably-sized muffins to be okay, but the ginormous bought ones NOT okay.

I would personally avoid drinks that have more than 1 tsp of sugar (mocha=sugar) OR that you drink all day. Again, you have to decide for yourself.

The questions I'd ask:
1) Can you draw a clear line around what is/isn't okay?
2) Are your choices working for you, both in terms of results AND in terms of habit-building?

If cutting out the obvious stuff is working, then the gray stuff is not much of an issue... unless it affects habit.

Good luck!

Clarica wrote:Any traditional breakfast food, for me, is not a sweet. Thats muffins, waffles, pancakes, french toast, croissants, cinnamon rolls, and on and on and on.

But I don't like them enough to eat them even once a week, so it doesn't really matter, for me.

I agree with both KCCC and Clarica. I have one muffin recipe that has far less sugar per muffin than many people use in their coffee or tea. When I make them, they're a part of breakfast. I usually don't make muffins, pancakes or French toast often, and waffles are something I have only when I go out for breakfast or brunch.

I've made pancakes 3 times in the last week. It was part of trying to perfect a recipe (and troubleshoot a problem). I may make them again today or tomorrow while I still remember the difference between these and my usual recipe.

We all have somewhat different ideas of what constitutes a "sweet", especially when it comes to breakfast foods. What is normal for me and my family may not be normal for you and yours.

One of the great things about No-S is that it's a plan that you make work for you, instead of you working to fit it. I think that is disconcerting to long-term dieters. However, in the end, it's the only thing that will work long term.

TexArk · Post by **TexArk** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:47 pm

I agree that on NoS we have no diet police to answer to. We are free to declare any food we want OK and make up our own tweaks. Our results will speak for themselves. My personal definition of a sweet has to do with the nutritional makeup of the food.

J Stanton in an essay on the subject of breakfast food:

"... has anyone else noticed that what passes for â€œbreakfast foodâ€ is the nutritional equivalent of Halloween candy? How did we get bamboozled into starting our day with snacks and dessert?

wosnes · Post by **wosnes** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:53 pm

TexArk wrote:
J Stanton in an essay on the subject of breakfast food:

"... has anyone else noticed that what passes for â€œbreakfast foodâ€ is the nutritional equivalent of Halloween candy? How did we get bamboozled into starting our day with snacks and dessert?

It's nothing new or original to the US. The French and Italians have started the day with sweets for many, many years. However, their croissants will fit in the palm of your hand instead of covering your whole hand.

osoniye · Post by **osoniye** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:46 am

Well, there are muffins and there are muffins. Personally the ones I make and serve at home are not a sweet, but I'm always experimenting with recipes and trying to come up with something tasty as well as "healthy". That's just my 2 cents. With time you will work it out... when in doubt, you probably don't need to worry!

BrightAngel · Post by **BrightAngel** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:36 pm

TexArk wrote:I agree (..with KCCC...) that on NoS we have no diet police to answer to.
We are free to declare any food we want OK and make up our own tweaks.
Our results will speak for themselves.
My personal definition of a sweet has to do with the nutritional makeup of the food.

I agree.

Nicest of the Damned · Post by **Nicest of the Damned** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:28 pm

I generally consider a sweet to be anything that you wouldn't find it odd to have for dessert.

I do consider muffins and fancy coffee drinks from Starbucks to be sweets.

One problem with muffins is that they've gotten so BIG. I remember making little muffins in muffin trays at home. You'd have about a 9x13 pan, and 12 muffin cups in it. They looked like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffin_tin

The muffins you get at Dunkin Donuts or Costco are a lot bigger than the muffins baked in something like this.

annerodriguez8 · Post by **annerodriguez8** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:41 pm

Nicest of the Damned wrote:I generally consider a sweet to be anything that you wouldn't find it odd to have for dessert.

I do consider muffins and fancy coffee drinks from Starbucks to be sweets.

One problem with muffins is that they've gotten so BIG. I remember making little muffins in muffin trays at home. You'd have about a 9x13 pan, and 12 muffin cups in it. They looked like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffin_tin

The muffins you get at Dunkin Donuts or Costco are a lot bigger than the muffins baked in something like this.

I still use those kind of muffin tins....I like the idea of tweaking the diet according to results. And I do think I'd find it odd to serve a small (even if it is sweet) muffin as a dessert, so in that case, for me, I suppose muffins are "in" as long as it's one, not ten.... okay, that will be a super corny new motto!

The whole starbucks drink thing has essentially been my breakfast (or half of it) for many years. I still don't know what to do with it. I feel that it's mostly milk and sugar. At least its not JUST sugar....I am still quite undecided with this one. I don't get whipped cream, i usually get a small or grande. I get nonfat milk.....I don't know.

I like to think this falls under the "personal interpretation" category. Let my results speak for themselves, as others have said. If I fail in that regard, I will reconsider my morning starbucks habit.

Nicest of the Damned · Post by **Nicest of the Damned** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:13 pm

annerodriguez8 wrote:I suppose muffins are "in" as long as it's one, not ten.... okay, that will be a super corny new motto!

That's how any reasonable diet has to work. There is a huge difference in calories between eating one muffin and ten muffins (ten times as many, if the muffins are all the same size). Any diet that doesn't acknowledge that simple fact is unlikely to work.

I would recommend setting a limit on the number of muffins you can have for breakfast, and sticking to it. It could be one, or two (probably shouldn't be more than that, unless they're really tiny), but the important bit is that it should be the same number every N day.

You could also draw a distinction between homemade muffins and store-bought or coffee-shop muffins. You could say that homemade muffins are OK for breakfast but others aren't. The important thing is that the distinction is clear to you.

Over43 · Post by **Over43** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:14 pm

You are going to get a ton of opinion on this. If it tastes sweet when you eat it, it is probably sweet. Good luck to you.

Starla · Post by **Starla** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:27 pm

I think the important thing is that you have a rule that's clear enough so that you know when you're breaking it, whatever that rule may be.

I count fruit muffins as sweets; they're cake. I count butter-slathered corn muffins as deliciously decadant and N-day allowed. I'm sure my corn muffins with butter have at least as many calories as a plain fruit muffin, but that's my rule and it works for me.

Making food decisions that work with your life is one of the nicest aspects of No S. Enjoy!