Everyday Systems

Yahoo! I think Yahoo is responsible for the collective dumbing down of the US.

Last week was a headline concerning diet drinks and diabetes. The research they were touting suggested one can of diet soda raises a person's chance of diabetes 33%.

This disturbs me, last year it was diet drinks cause more weight gain than regular pop. I have never found that to be true personally, but I'm not a nutrition scientist.

I like Fresca, Diet Coke, Mio, etc. It has never caused weight gain, and lot of people where I live are getting cancer. My guess is our well water since we live in an agricultural area with a lot of chemicals.

So, what to drink now?

I'm not keen on sweet drinks so usually just drink tea. I haven't looked into the stories about diet drinks (because I don't drink them often), but I know it can be difficult to pinpoint cause and effect. For instance, overweight people tend to automatically order diet drinks - I know I do. We drink diet drinks because we're overweight, not the other way round. I did read that consumption of diet drinks might be associated with sugar cravings (so possibly people who prefer sweet diet drinks eat more sugary food overall? I don't know). Anyway, for me tea with a dash of milk works and I'm hoping studies don't find out that it's terrible for me!

One can? Or one can per day?

Well, really, we have to know we're always taking a chance with diet anything. I roll the dice sometimes on that one, but not nearly as often as I used to.

If you're really worried about the local water, it might be time for a good water filter. Sorry!

I think it was per week. (2 1/2 glasses a week).

if you're worried about drinking water with chemicals, then definitely dump the diet soda...
if you like the fizzy stuff, i suggest seltzer with a small splash of juice, or just flavored non-sweetened seltzer, like lemon or raspberry flavor...
i've recently been enjoying iced green tea...sometimes i put one or two spoons of sugar in it, or i have it plain...i make it first thing in the morning, in a large glass quart jar, then i have it in the fridge to sip on all day...
good luck...
and the reason that diet soda is linked to gaining weight, is that the fake sweeteners wreak havoc with our satiety center, just as msg does, and makes you want to eat/drink more...

There's one thing about these conclusions that really rankles me. As a scientist myself, I know that the number one maxim, when determining what the data say, is "correlation does not imply causation."

What does that mean? It means that, for example, the trend of people who drink diet sodas and have an increased chance (whatever that means) of getting diabetes, are not necessarily related.

To determine if it were true, one would have to control EVERY possible variable, even those way beyond the scope of the study, fox example, DNA or dietary choices made 13 years, 6 months and 17 days ago. It's impossible to have that level of control, therefore, it's impossible to know that drinking a diet soda causes someone (who must have the genetic disposition to become diabetic) will become diabetic based on that single dietary choice.

It's much more reasonable to think that the reason diet soda drinkers tend to get diabetes is that they already engage in behaviors that trigger the latent diabetes they were born with. I'm fat, therefore I drink diet soda and it's because I'm fat and I have the genes, not because of my drinking, that I have become diabetic.

tl;dr (summary) - it's irresponsible to assume that drinking diet sodas causes diabetes.

I think you're wise to point out that there could be a million confounding variables. We see that in epidemiology all the time. But having said that, I think there is a lot more to the story. From the standpoint of inductive logic and Bayesian statistics, finding a correlation between diet drinks and diabetes raises the probability that we'd expect "diet drinks cause diabetes" to be true. It's definitely not the final word, but we can't simply invoke "correlation is not causation" and dismiss the charge.

With that in mind, my own emerging sense is that diet drinks do cause metabolic syndrome/diabetes/weight gain and they do it in two interrelated ways.

1. Dopamine. Sweetened drinks feed your sweet tooth and cause further cravings, and not all of them will be satiated with something that is zero calories.

2. Gut health. We're starting to realize the importance of a healthy gut and the gut-brain connections. Some artificial sweeteners, like sucralose, work because they are not broken down in the digestive system. So it seems highly likely that they could cause harmful bacteria to flourish. Having said that, every artificial sweetener is different. Some have the potential to be healthy for your gut, like monk fruit and stevia.

You mean they cause obesity by causing overeating? Because I think there are few people who are obese who aren't overeating. I was only mildly obese, but I overate when I was normal weight, overweight, and mildly obese. I still do sometimes.

I think we can say that they contribute to the desire to overeat, but it's overeating for the great majority that causes obesity, exceptions notwithstanding.

I do tea and I also do milk but I don't do them together I don't think the tea i use strong enough for it

But might try it

Sorry, I made an edit to my previous post for clarity - I changed "cause obesity" to "cause metabolic syndrome/diabetes/weight gain". I think the word obese is too loaded although I meant it in the BMI definition sense.

There are a lot of unhealthy foods out there and you can't avoid them all! I do think it makes sense to treat diet soda as an S food, but everyone is different.

...type 2 diabetes is caused by genetics and lifestyle factors

- American Diabetes Association

Drinking any particular beverage or eating any particular food CANNOT cause diabetes. Dietary choices certainly influence the onset and severity, but in themselves, do not cause the disease.

What does this mean?

It means that if you have the genes, you could (not necessarily will) develop diabetes regardless of your consumption of diet soda. It also means that people who do not have the gene CAN'T develop diabetes regardless of what they eat or drink.

You MUST have a genetic predisposition to develop diabetes?

oolala53 wrote:You MUST have a genetic predisposition to develop diabetes?

Generally, yes, but there is some conjecture that there are other causes such as a virus that can compromise the pancreas. There are other direct causes like pancreatic cancer, I think.

for clarification you are talking about type 2 diabetes? isn't that supposed to be preventable

You cannot get diabetes Type 2 if you don't have the genes? I have never heard about this. I always thought - if you overload your system with sugar etc. you will eventually be at risk for Type 2 Diabetes.

I don't have anyone with diabetes in my family. Does that mean we're not prone? Can you get gene tested?

Why are there so many more people suddenly getting Type2 in the developed world? Because they were all prone but didn't have the same lifestyle factors? I just always assumed it was genes OR/and lifestyle. Not AND.

Interesting!

Most diabetes sites support the claim that eating sugar does not cause diabetes.

There are plenty of overweight and obese people in the world who will never develop diabetes nor heart disease. Overweight has never been shown to be the cause. It is just correlated, so the odds go up, but odds always mean some do and some don't.

pop of any type is probabably not good

i enjoy it in varying degrees on s days

So I asked my doctor yesterday and he said you can absolutely get diabetes Type 2 if you have no genetic predisposition. Your lifestyle can do it to you. Not one thing alone as pop or sugar but your overall lifestyle. That kind of makes sense to me as we had such a diabetes 2 explosion while diabetes 1 has remained relatively stable.

Sorry we hijacked the thread!

...he said you can absolutely get diabetes Type 2 if you have no genetic predisposition.

According to the ADA (and other sources I'm too busy to find right now) you can't.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if some diseases of the pancreas could cause Type 1 and perhaps others, e.g. gestational diabetes, might cause type 2. I haven't researched that either.

I did just find this link - http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/causes/

Thank you ferdberfle

Although this isn't about diabetes, I just read this article about soda (and diet soda):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-zin ... ostpopular

I thought it was interesting.

Sounds like there is no good in any kind of soda! Thanks for the article, eschano.

Hmm. That might do it.

During a recent heat wave, when I bought a diet soda at a local outdoor shop at a seaside shopping center, a man there struck up a conversation. He claimed he had just signed a contract with Pepsi for them to use a version of stevia his company had perfected that got rid of the taste that so many people don't like. In the meantime, he recommended getting iced tea in similar circumstances. He actually implied that that would be preferable even when the soda makers use stevia.

Grist for the mill.

Gross story about mice coming up - skip if you are squeamish!

Years ago before I studied engineering, I worked up North on a mine site in a store room. Late one day, the guy driving the forklift dropped a pallet of soda cans, and a bunch of them burst. We didn't have time to clean up the whole puddle, so we left it for the morning.

In the morning, we found that mice had been having a go at the puddle. We found several mice where only a few bones, feet and tail were left - they had dissolved in the soda. I've never forgotten this horrible sight, and it always makes me wonder what all the carbonic acid (from the fact that the drink is carbonated / has bubbles - nothing to do with sugar or diet) was doing to my mouth and teeth.

Acidity is measured primarily by a property called pH. Seven is neutral, above seven is basic (caustic, like lye) and below seven is acidic. This is an inverse concentration based measurement.

While most colas (which also have phosphoric acid - the acid that gives colas their 'bite') have a pH of about 2.8 to 3, the acid that is in your stomach (hydrochloric acid) has a pH that ranges from 1.5 to 3. Therefore, cola often does not change the natural acidity of the stomach.

Interestingly enough, the stomach acid is neutralized by sodium bicarbonate produced in the pancreas to form table salt and carbonic acid - the same acid that carbon dioxide forms in sodas (any water, for that matter). Enzymes break down the carbonic acid (from the stomach acid and cola) into carbon dioxide and water. Eventually, the largest part of that carbon dioxide is exhaled.

Also, vinegar, lemon juice and cranberry juice have lower pH readings (are more acidic) than cola.

When it comes to eroding tooth enamel, according to snopes.com,

Mountain Dew contains citric acid, a substance naturally found in citrus fruits that exists as a powder in its purified, industrialized form. Most citrus sodas mix in the stuff to give drinks their tangy bite, while most colas, such as Coca Cola and Pepsi, incorporate phosphoric acid for the same effect. Consequently, these drinks have a low pH value around 3 (very acidic). Coca Cola, with its dark coloring and non-fruity flavor, may be the soft drink most often compared to battery acid, but in 2004, a well-known study led by dentist J. Anthony von Fraunhofer found that citrus sodas like Mountain Dew and Sprite erode tooth enamel around six times faster than colas.

Yeah, my concern was my mouth and teeth, as I was pretty sure stomach acid could handle anything I can bear to drink.

I guess the difference is that I'm unlikely to chug vinegar or lemon juice in the quantities people drink soda. My sister is a dentist, so she's quick to jump on anything we drink (e.g. offering our young son water with a slice of lemon).

All I know is that the only drink other than water I drank for the first 15 years of my life was Diet coke and I neither have reflux nor was ever bulimic, yet my teeth look like it. Every dentist agreed it's the diet coke. It depends on your quantities. And while your stomach acid might be more acidic most people don't have it in their mouths.

I had a friend with dark spotted teeth. She said she sucked on a lot of lemons when she was young.

Didn't they say to pour cola down the drain when you had a clogged sink?

Oolala: I don't even want to imagine what they did to that stevia to make it taste less bitter.

Good point, noni.