Martial arts, hammer weight

martinbkk · Post by **martinbkk** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:37 pm

Hi everyone,

new to SG here...at least new user that is.
discovered the site a while back (2 years ago), and clubbell n kettlebells too, never got round to it. I had made some clubs though, by filling toy baseball bats made out of plastic with cement. They weighed about 7 pounds.

I lost interest and motivation for a while in training last year, and got grossly out of shape. I made a full turnaround last December.
Now that I'm determined to regain my strength, I feel my eyes have been opened to new possibilities in strength training, having found SG...

For years and years I had been searching for something that could aid me in both strength and cardio conditioning and wouldnt make me sluggish in my martial arts. Here i think I've finally found the answer to my prayers. Having tried some weapons training (sword), the feeling is quite similar, only that I'm using a much heavier weapon now!

A few Q's:
One question is on hammer weighing; my hammer feels like it weighs a ton more than the 7LB cement clubs i made before. It's not clearly printed, but the head of the hammer says either 16 or 6 LB. It sure feels like 16lbs. I doubt it is 6LB but I want to make sure. Would the following weighing method be legit: getting on a person scale with and without a hammer, recording both and taking the difference between the two as the weight of the hammer? Or is that too inaccurate? That's what i did with the cement ones...

I had actually bought the hammer as a prop for a short film i made last year, I remember selecting the biggest and heaviest hammer the tool shop had.

Also, are there any people here who have adapted their hammer to any martial arts weapons forms?
I've found these weapons training forms on the internet with double handed weapons that might work with a sledgehammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ahRtsx-4I

Someone training with a double headed axe, though i think it's a demo weapon he's using there. There's another one with double sword, can't find the link now.

also on e-bay you can find the following DVD
MiZong HunYuan Double Hammer VCD(DVD) (search for it or ask me for the link, don't want to be misinterpreted as an ebay spammer). Though that is a form with two short, heavy hammers, one in each hand. They look more like huge maracas than hammers if you ask me, but I guess they would function as rib smashers any day...

Also the Shaolin Damo stick is a two handed weapon, as is the double handed sword or General Quan sword.

If anyone has any info, links, videos of your performance doing a weapons set with a hammer etc. please let me know.

Martin

ThomsonsPier · Post by **ThomsonsPier** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:36 pm

Any staff or short stick (bo, hanbo, jo) form or kata can be done with a hammer. I don't do it myself, but have used a weighted staff. The off-centre weighting of the hammer may prove detrimental to your weapons skills if you try to perform movements designed for use with symmetrical weaponry.

What style(s) do you study?

david · Post by **david** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:32 pm

I have a good bit of experience with this. I have found that doing the basic movements like shoveling and chopping with good body coordination and proper breathing will make your "regular" weapons (sword and stick for me) much more managable. In other words, don't get fancy with the hammer--it is not suitable for subtle movements or rapid direction changes. My balance, stability, breathing, coordination (kokyu ryoku or gongfu) have improved with SG.

thanks,
David

martinbkk · Post by **martinbkk** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:47 pm

Thanks David & ThomsonsPier.

Well i was thinking of finding a form that was meant for it.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y4xfhJ1K5M

ok the size of the hammer doesn't quite measure up hehe, but some similar swings to SG. That video game's character moves all came from some martial arts...

I agree that the movements need to be done with controll...in MA the alternating at will of tension, relaxation and momentum are important, and so in SG.

Keeping the hammer extended at the end of the handle for example, like one would do with a pole/bo, would be similar muscles and tendons used, i think?

As long as one would adhere to martial principles, i.e. retract tendons and pull shoulder blades in the back, drop the sacrum in the stance, pull in groin tendons, and as a result knees don't hang over toes or even ankles, etc etc.

sorry for my lack of clear explanation-
Basically by focusing on keeping the tendons pulled in, the body can move as one unit and issue full body power. Today i noticed that if i pull back the shoulder blades back and down towards the spine during a swiss automaton swing for example, the movement actually becomes easier. The power flows in one line from toes to arms.

Thomsonspier: i have done various martial arts but mainly gong fu, currently studying with a master in Bagua in Taiwan. I've never studied weapons in depth formally, but learned some pole and butterfly knives in Wing Chun, and some basic sword training in Bagua.

david · Post by **david** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:18 pm

It's just not possible to swing a sledgehammer in certain ways. I weigh over 230 lbs. and if I tried to swing the hammer like the video game character I would throw myself through a wall. I could do it if my feet were twice as long, maybe.

I suggest just doing regular old SG for a while (at least six months). If you have well-integrated MA skills your body will automatically start blending the MA with SG.

There isn't really any reason, IMO, to make Shovelglove anything other than what it is. For all intents and purposes, it's perfect. It seems that most of the people who try to tweak SG haven't really put much time into doing the basic methods. My SG practice is very plain--I have just noticed that my already existing movement style has been enhanced by the SG practice.-----K.I.S.S.

--david

martinbkk · Post by **martinbkk** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:02 am

yes that's what I was referring to, applying MA principles to SG. I think some can transfer from one to the other, 'blend' as you say.

I agree that it would take quite some time to perform those kind of moves, and that some of them are impossible. SG provides plenty to work with.

Some of the overhead swings are still fun to do though...

ThomsonsPier · Post by **ThomsonsPier** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:38 am

Ah, I misunderstood what you were after. Yes, in that case, I imagine that SG is probably better suited to building the muscles in the right way for MA than most 'traditional' weight training techniques.

It would, however, be hilarious to take up some form of weapon sparring class and turn up one day with a sledgehammer. Perhaps.

I think I recall seeing a hammer form somewhere. I will check my sources and get back to you if I find it. Take at look at staff forms if you get a chance; my training is in yu lung, which is mostly ba gua derived, and uses a wide staff grip in some instances which may prove useful in SG.

david · Post by **david** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:48 pm

I remember seeing a horrible kung fu movie when I was a kid. Basically this laborer tries to use a sledgehammer to defeat the gang which was after him. Wielding the hammer the normal way proved to be so slow that he got trounced! When a kung fu master told him to hold the hammer "backwards" his movements were much quicker and he got the better of the gang. All else being equal, I think you're better off doing combat with just the handle. Even better would be a stick about 4-6 feet long. However, a hammer would be handy when fighting in armor, where the mass might be more important than speed.

Luckily, SG ain't about fighting.

martinbkk · Post by **martinbkk** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:29 pm

Yes.. I was NOT looking for SG to be a replacement or have some applicability. But by training a certain way, the transfer to MA might be better. For instance, if one trains like one would in their form (the same mind-intention and kinesthetic awareness) one might derive more martially applicable skills out of doing SG.

For example, I practice "stoke the oven" as if it were a lunge + stab or just stab with a sword. Holding the sledge at the end of the handle parallel to the ground on each stab really requires a lot of focus on those muscles you would use when stabbing with a sword, right? I focus more on the tension during the movement than a fluent swing that carries a lot of momentum. I think it recruits more muscle fibre firing and activation of the central nervous system than if just swingin' away with lots of added momentum.

TigerCrane · Post by **TigerCrane** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:15 am

I remember seeing a horrible kung fu movie when I was a kid.

Horrible? That was 36th Chamber of Shaolin, directed by the great Lau Gar Leung!

nascif · Post by **nascif** » Thu May 03, 2007 3:23 am

Hi Martin,

I have been using this video to get moves for a two single-hand (4lbs) hammers:
http://www.chinesemall.com/mizushuangchui.html

Thanks for the links you posted, some great moves there!

I like the MA-SG mixed approach as well, I think there is great synergy there.

Regards,
Nascif

Everyday Systems

Martial arts, hammer weight

Martial arts, hammer weight

where can I get this hammer?