lbb's official daily check-in

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, Sinnie. I think it helped that it WASN'T a sit-down dinner. Those kill me. The not-knowing ahead of time, etc. etc.

Plus I had decided BEFORE hand and there was NO CHOICE.


So I love any salad that's greek-ish. Maybe it's the salt. At Costco, I always grab the huge spinach bin, some tomatoes, cucumbers, etc. etc. and work off that all week. My kids aren't the best veggie eaters, though I DO put them on their plates each night...eaten or not.

As far as the wrap goes, it's just a spinach flavored wrap, with chicken, cabbage, peanuts and some thai sauce. I just keep grilled chicken in the fridge always for any creation.

So far so good today. I just finished a HUGE lunch. I was starving after body pump (I always am). Something about the weights...

Dinner tonight may be omelets. On Thursday I like to not cook something because it's almost the weekend...basically clean out our fridge!

[rungirl96]

That wrap sounds good! I try to cook all I can on the weekend to have stuff ready during the week so I don't have to cook when I get home from work. Somehow it seems like everything is gone by Tuesday or Wednesday.

Great job on 4 days! I feel confident I'll have 3 by Saturday, but then I have to try to control the S days, which I haven't done so well with in the past. Going to read my Beck response cards frequently on Saturday and Sunday! And stay close to this website!

[oolala53]

Yesterday I served myself a slice of cake at a little get together where people were supposed to bring their lunch. No one brough lunch and everyone ate cake. I had my lunch and no one noticed I didn't eat my cake.

[lbb (Liz)]

Wow, that's a feat, oolala. My mom used to say, "don't flatter yourself" when as an anxious teen I'd be worried about what people think. She didn't mean it in a rude way, but more a "people don't notice nor care" and "they are so worried about themselves, no one cares what you do."
She's right!

[lbb (Liz)]

Thursday: Green!
Hooray.
B: pb oats
L: chicken salad, chips, yogurt
SO hungry for lunch after doing body pump. really over-loaded my plate, but oh well.
D: eggs scrambled with feta, chicken sausage (which I didn't eat b/c it was gross), olives, spinach
a cup of Uncle Sam's cereal, scoop of peanut butter
1/2 plum

All is well. A little tired today. Really rainy and sad about the local shootings up the street from us. Totally shocking and sad.

Also mad my husband just ate my frozen brownies I had stashed away for Saturday. Seriously?
He's such a raccoon.
I get possessive of my treats!

[oolala53]

I bought a cake for that retirement party this week and there was a lot left over. Hardly anyone around school wants it but it is really good cake. However, I didn't want just anybody taking it and I left it in an employee fridge in its big container inside two translucent plastic bags with a sign on it that says, "Not Yours." I guess that wouldn't work at your house.

I might take slices of it to my West African dance class tomorrow. Nah, it's a bunch of women. I'll freeze it and take it Sunday. More guy drummers there.

[lbb (Liz)]

Spoke too soon. I'm blushing RED!
Memories flash back to childhood, 6th of 8 kids when you set something aside and it's gone.
When I saw hubs eying brownies, later I opened the freezer, saw 2 of the 4 left and just sat and ate them.
Mistake I shouldn't have done. Not going to beat myself up about it.
Couldn't stand to have him finish them off. And I know he would cuz he just asked where they are. We compete for treats! Next time: deep freezer in the basement!
Sabotaging thought: I better eat these before he does. I'm mad he did so I'll get my fill.
Replace with: that makes me mad, but there are millions if other yummy things I could eat as dessert this weekend. Glad they are no longer a temptation
Live and learn.

[Amy3010]

Live and learn, indeed - looking at it as a learning opportunity is great! We have the competing treats thing in our house too... because I am careful about what I buy and bring into the house, I guess. It's the scarcity thing...

In any case, despite the brownies, you have been having a really good week!

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, sweet Amy for your words. Live and learn, indeed!
"Competing treats"...sounds so funny! It does happen because we don't allow lots of junk. So it's totally novel!
Reminds me how growing up, my mom ALWAYS had jars of candy on the counter: peanut M&Ms, nibs, and hot tamales. More for color and decor.
I never wanted to eat them, though because they were always there.
Maybe I should try that here...just kidding. That'd be awfuL!

Take care. It's going to be a great green day today. Feeling good and strong!

[Sinnie]

Liz, I would have the exact same reaction. As kids, if my sister and I were to share something, I remember always feeling exasperated because she ate so much faster than I did and I got jipped all the time with less as a result! It would drive me mad if someone took something I was saving for myself!!! Of course they don't mean anything bad, but you better stay away from my stuff Although, at times I'd prefer having other people gobble it all up so I don't have to. The problem is at my house, DH doesn't eat the stuff, and S-DD only takes small portions, so sweets last FOREVER around the house. Right now, there is a huge container of homemade cookies S-DD made last weekend. She eats like one a day, so I've really had to learn coping mechanisms to not worry about the cookies possibly being wasted! It's been hard! Thank goodness the weekend is almost here. That is going to be my one sweet each day.

[rungirl96]

Good for you for stopping at 2 brownies! I would have searched for more chocolate/sweets, and if there weren't any would go out and get some.

I only buy my kids treats that I know won't appeal to me. They're happy with plain chocolate ice cream. If I'm going to eat ice cream I'm going to go for something a little more exciting. Funny, because this morning at work a patient mentioned he found this new flavor called "I do, I do, wedding cake" and my mouth dropped. I've had it and it's awesome! So good I won't buy it again. Wedding cake, white with raspberry, is one of my favorite sweets ever! Glad I don't get invited to many weddings

Hope you're weekend goes well and your S days are "sane"!

[lbb (Liz)]

Oh man, Sinnie, having homemade cookies in the house alone would do me over. No wonder it's been hard for you to resist! I'll take homemade cookies over any dessert out! Glad you have it planned ahead.

That's me, too, rungirl. I keep stuff I don't like, but I'd say vanilla ice cream over chocolate!

This weekend will go well. I'm planning to go about my days like a typical N day, but have dessert at night.
Tomorrow night, since hubby will be out of town, I'll take the kids out for ice cream.
Sunday, for my "S", I picked up today at Target my favorite Ghiradelli chocolate bar.
That's it, folks.

Reading the Beck book right now and am not very far into it, but man I'm realizing I have SO MANY sabotaging thoughts and have had for so long. I may be "thinnish", but have THOUGHT like an overweight person for far too long. This statement would make sense to you if you've read the book, because she talks about how thin people think. They don't feel bad turning stuff down, they would never eat past fulness, they don't freak out about over-eating, they just may have a less next time.
All this stuff I'm like, "oh reallY?".
Brilliance!

[NoSnacker]

Hi, thanks for the reminder about not having a choice. I re-read that section in beck. I have applied the NO CHOICE to my weekdays for sure and for sure it seems like a lot of pressure off of me.

You are doing great!!

All my life I blamed the food, funny isn't it..like food had the control over me, or my mouth couldn't go for just one bite. WHEN in reality it all starts upstairs. Until that is fixed, the food and not able to have one bite will win over, because we give it the power.

So with beck and No S we can defuse that and come to normalcy with food. Beck has really helped me a lot, maybe Reinhard and Beck should write a book together!

I'm going to decide to put some fences around what I do this weekend. FIRST, should be no eating if not hungry..if not hungry it would be for other reasons...stick to 3 squares and like you a wonderful dessert or seconds of something during a meal. But not so sure about snacking...hence my name No Snacker,,,get's me every darn time.

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, Deb for the cheers! You're right No-S habits fused with Beck thoughts=obliteration of these life-long sabotaging behaviors!
Particularly, when I have had eating disorders...it's obviously not just stuff I DO, it's what I THINK.

So I've had a wonderful N week regardless of the 2 brownies on Thursday. Benefits of N days:
I feel very focused and productive.
I feel SO much less bloated, tired, and heavy.
I have allowed HUNGER back into my life and it's okay.
I have enjoyed my meals fully DUE to hunger.
I resisted treats at a party. Social gatherings are hardest for me as I feel like a double-person. I'm kinda focusing/obsessing about the treats but still trying to hold "normal" conversation.

With all these benefits, and walking into an "S" day today, it makes me realize I don't want to over-do anything today.
I'm sticking to my 3 meals today and looking forward to going out for dessert tonight with the boys.
That's it.

I'll possibly make my meals a little different, a little more varied, to shake things up.

But when you have felt wonderful and progress over the week, you don't want to un-do it!


I did weigh myself today and was down to 121. I know it's most water weight, but after last weekend's binge-fest, Monday I was at 126. So that just says how much bloat I was toting around.

Hope ya'll have a fantastic weekend!
xo

[oolala53]

Things sound good. Yay!

I've been enjoying reading the blog you mentioned in a post, Can You Stay to Dinner. How can someone so young get it? And isn't it amazing that she didn't have all kinds of relapses and such. She started and just kept going. Though it's interesting that she wasn't scale-obsessed. I guess she was really just ready. And possibly has the right incarnation. Another way of saying lucky?

Enjoy your meals and dessert with the boys. And life in between.

[lbb (Liz)]

technically an "S" day.
so not able to fail.

but i had a plan of eating 3 squares, and one dessert at the end of the day.
not like it matters, but it didn't go exactly as planned.
but no bingeing or mindless snacking, thank heavens .
i guess you look at progress, and MUCH better than last week.

break: pb banana oats
exercise: body pump class at gym

afterwards, took boys to the library and husband's out of town.

for some reason on saturdays, and esp. if hubby is out of town, i feel like being spontaneous with the boys. we already had a few science projects to do at home (mentos/diet soda, milk/food coloring).

but next to the library, there was this bakery i hadn't been to. we went in planning on a bagel or something. of course, only the cookies/brownies would do.

so we split the brownie&cookie in 4ths. yes, it was that big.

i don't know why i had to buy 2 extra cookies alongside. probably since i never feel like i'll ever get to a bakery again (ya right) and treat myself. so, i had to get 2 more different kinds. i'm overcautious and a pre-buyer in food and in clothes/supplies too. i have this huge worry about running out of stuff.
maybe it's my church's constant push for food storage/self-reliance/emergency-preparedness.
okay, tangent...

the over-do-it-liz, had the coconut chocolate macaroon cookie driving home.
and it was to die for. really.
next week? just buy THAT cookie only!
i hurried home and threw the other one in the freezer. didn't feel like it and wanted it outta site.

the sweets made me a bit sick and i didn't want more. that's a good sign.

i made the decision to NOT EAT until i felt actual true hunger. and that didn't happen till about 5:30pm (6 hours later). we were so busy doing saturday work, science experiments, and weeding that i never got around to eating.

i so didn't want sugary carby stuff, so made a huge protein turkey, feta veggie salad and two eggs with cheese. filling and good.

but of course after dinner i'm still "mouth hungry" for something else.
that's why i'm writing right now. because i know i'm not tummy-hungry, but i feel this sense of "well i can, so i should!".

and it's like the wind-down time of day when i want to curl up with a movie and chocolate and popcorn, though i know i'm not hungry.

i keep telling myself that my BODY does NOT know it's an S day. my body will use the calories the same way it uses any food calories.

so i'll allow the fact that if i'm actually hungry by 10pm, i can eat.

but for now, i'll let 'er ride. the boys just started a movie and i'll go join 'em. it's been a busy day and i'm ready to sit down!

i do feel scared and vulnerable when i haven't completely ruled out "not eating" for the day. on binge-y days, i like to go big, eat a ton, and CLOST THE GATES. but tonight, i'm not overly stuffed, just pleasantly full. it's weird, good, different.
i think i'm used to being bloated/full most days, well, most S days.

my tummy will guide me the same way it did in not wanting anything sugary for dinner. i just gotta trust it!

[oolala53]

Hope you made it without eating more.

People with eating disorders have to be a little more careful about spontaneity. It's easy for them to fool themselves. On the other hand, they do have to deal with life as it comes at times.

Get that cookie next week!

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, oolala.
I waited things out.
Mowed the lawn. Took the kids on an extra walk.
Put a toddler in his bed over and over...
and then at 10pm, started painting my toenails while watching "you've got mail" (it was on tv). Popped a bag of popcorn and ate that last cookie.
How cliche is that for when a hubby is out of town?

But I don't feel bad about it.
I'm not taking an S day tomorrow at all and it's not to punish myself.
I just am solo tomorrow again. Have no plans but Church. Have no tempting treats in the house. And since it's our sabbath, I won't be purchasing anything.

It brings me comfort to have 3 healthy filling meals.
So I'm looking forward to it.

You're truly right about eating disorders and spontaneity. I should know that walking in a bakery to get the boys something would then lead me to do the same. I felt "off" and it threw me for a loop.

I've done lots of Beck reading today and learning lots about myself. I like her straight-forward approach and have always liked people to not be wishy-washy or beat around the bush. I just read the chapter about "NO CHOICE".

It makes me think that with S days, there always IS a choice, which is fine, but I think I'll leave that choice to one day this weekend.

The root of a lot of this stems from my deep relationship with my 5 sisters and mom. We are REALLY close. They are all thinnish, too, but have never had eating disorders. When we are together, it's healthy food, but nibbles on cookies, frozen yogurt, etc. Treats are the main focus quite a bit of the time.
Even though I don't live near them at this minute, I will be spending the month of July with them. And no need to worry about it now, but I do always think that's when my eating gets haywire. I try to be two people.

And if anything, this Beck+NO-S thing can teach me is to be assertive. I am 6th of 8 kids and very "pleasing", making ALL happy around me. I adapt REALLy well. But I can stick to my guns with food. And am prepared to actually say, "Eating only 3 meals/day without treats except the weekend works for me." I fear explaining myself since we try so hard to be like "it's annoying when people watch what they eat". Or, I could see my Mom be like, "Liz I'm worried are you getting eating-disorder-ish?".

But I'm prepared to tell her that this helps me mentally. I know this sounds silly, but I have to gain a "testimony" of No-S that I am proud of and can keep when surrounded by others.

Okay another huge tangent. Written for my own sake, so need not read through, friends.

XO

[Amy3010]

Liz, I can relate to so much of what you say with your sisters...I have been feeling anxiety for months now about food issues and our family vacation with everyone in July. I am so hoping that doing No S these past months will give me the solid foundation of habit to be able to be at peace around the family without it being noticeable or disruptive. I too dread when people scrutinize the way I am eating (being a vegetarian compounds it). I guess we will have to do the best we can and know that even if our families aren't supportive or understanding, we do have friends on this board who get it!

Have a very happy and peaceful Sunday!

[oolala53]

Might there be a way to avoid telling them or will it be too obvious if you skip sweets on weekdays? For the nibbling, couldn't you say something like, I'm still full from X meal? Or I'm actually thirsty. I'll have tea/lemonade, etc. or I'm saving my appetite for that great lunch/dinner we're having. And change the subject. When they see you eating heartily at meals, won't that take some of the pressure off?

Yeah, the scrutiny at events is rather amazing and is definitely part of what people need to learn to deal with. Having talked about all our previous regimes complicates it. And women tend to bond on eating and body image issues. Unfortunately, it hasn't helped them eat rationally.

I'm a big believer in changing the subject! People usually have other subjects you know they like to go on about. Or collect some ideas now. I know it's part of techniques for how to become a better conversationalist to actually have a few topics in mind to bring up.

Uh-oh. Now we'll become disordered conversationalists compulsively making lists of topics!

[lbb (Liz)]

You make some brilliant points, oolala.
Change the subject. Be confident about it. Don't draw attention. Don't be defensive.

My sisters and I BOND over food, like you mentioned how most women do "on eating and body image issues". "What treat next?"....
You're right about eating heartily at meals nixing the "fix" for a treat. They don't eat actual sit-down meals most times.

Let me paint a picture of my mom (and she's a rarity). Thin. Nervous, Always has a box of wheat chex in her hand at home, picking at pistachios while working, driving with a cooler of nibs, ginger snaps, and crackers, sipping Diet coke all day, and when you go out to eat with her, she'll take one bite and take the rest home.
I guess you could say she's the epitome of an "intuitive eater", but it's kinda hard to be around. Food all the time, but never satisfied (or so I would think). When we shop together and hang out, she's always on the hunt for food, but then just has a tiny bit.
I don't have that tiny bit switch.
Just an observation.
I'll be living with her all of July, but who knows? Maybe MY eating will teach HER something!

[lbb (Liz)]

s-day.
but i had told myself i wasn't going to take it. really i didn't want it....last night.

and i didn't think that i wanted it till about 4:30pm today.

i had a normal breakfast. was really hungry for it. pb oats.

got home from a long morning at church and ate lunch about 3pm.
really hungry.
but made a nice turkey salad, almonds, and greek yogurt.
nice, filling. done. enjoyed. yay.

hour later was anxious and had some work to do via email for my church job.
had that "oh i need some sweets!" feeling to get me through.
"oh it's an s day and wouldn't it be lovely to munch something mindlessly while doing work?".
but i don't have anything in the house!
and it's the sabbath so i won't go buy anything!

i remembered i had a box of "good and plenty" candy (not even that great) in my cupboards leftover from the baby shower (pink and white licorice). ate 'em while i typed away.
a favorite of mine in getting stuff done, in college, etc. makes bad times go easier..?

it started a drawn out BINGE not necessarily of good yummy stuff that i was dying for, but just to eat.
to numb out.

it was reminiscent of college days. bowls of cereal, kids' granola bars, bites of my boys' cold spaghetti, animal cracker, graham cracker, and TONS of sweet potato chips. holy carbs!

but i'm here now.
and i'm okay.
not really. i'm dazed. bloated and mad at myself even though i know all the experts are like, "move on"!. but it's hard when you feel like you just woke up from an outer body experience to "move on"!..."no big deal!".

it's like i need to pay penitence.
am i addicted to the beat yourself up and resolve to be better cycle like an abusive husband/boyfriend?

i'm scared how much i'm so all or nothing.
is this no-s thing awesome? or the second i veer away from it, is it working against me b/c i go all haywire?
but in all reality, i know i don't like life without no-s.
i know it's here to stay. but that certain behaviors are not.

maybe it screwed me up b/c you know how i had chocolate and popcorn last night?
and weighed myself this morning and was 121? felt great, right?!
i think subconsciously maybe i'm all, "oh i can eat without gaining weight?"
i know tomorrow will show up on the scale for sure.

or, whenever i start to feel good and thinner, i sabotage myself.
can't succeed.

but keep the eye on the prize liz. good habits. not weight.

things i coulda done better tonight:
i had no clue what i was going to eat for dinner.
i was going to make up some conglomeration of whatever was in the fridge.
sometimes if i'm not at all excited about what's coming up next, i'm just like, "may as well mess up my good streak...with, well, anything...."
but not too tasty, just super binge-acious.

next time: have a plan.
my plan only last till lunch.

in the beck book, i skimmed over the part where it said: plan your meals for the next day.
i thought: lame, not for me because i can wing it.
maybe not so. i think it's good. not to a tee, but a general idea. my boys had had leftover spaghetti (yuck), and husband outta town. i didn't need something yummy? maybe i did.

next time:
make a choice or don't.
i had not really backfired to myself the words: 'NO CHOICE' when i considered some candy...which lead to the binge.
if it had been an N day, the "NO CHOICE" would have for sure been in force.
but today i rationalized. not like my body was like, "oh ya liz, i was going to remind you you can eat anything because it's an S day, remember?"...hahah.
note: if the debate is open at all, i will let a negotiation, or a candy bar creep on in.

next time: sit down.

next time: don't eat out of bags. but it felt so rebellious and cool to pick off plates.

next time: think of how i always feel at body pump tuesday when i want to put on my tank top and not see my muscle arms covered in a layer of fat. i know that those muscles are dying to show themselves, but can't. because i'm eating too much. no amount of working out will help if diet's not aligned.

okay i'm done analyzing.
binges really are the worst.
you're not yourself with your kids and the second you come out you're like:
woah, baby. what happened?
not cool. so not cool.
the end.

[oolala53]

Gotta unhook from the illusion that you need to munch on anything while you do paperwork. That it will make it more pleasant or more doable. No, it won't. It's a trap. Isn't the brain clever?

If hunger is not the problem, food is not the solution. Yada yada.

I only say this because I ate my way up the last 25 lbs. just about all on this one. First writing papers in my credentialing program and then working on stuff for my students. All after I was 40. I was a darn grown up!

It's just a plain old psych textbook pairing. You extinguish the stimulus-response cycle by not responding.

So simple, no? Ha ha. Wait, it is simple. Not EASY. But in the end, easier than NOT ending it. Because living it is not fun. Okay, not torture anymore, and that's good. But not real fun.

I shouldn't tell you what to do but I highly recommend that you not get on the scale tomorrow. 1) Isn't that actually part of the disorder? 2) It is a lose/lose situation. If you gain, you have to do mental gymnastics to right yourself; if you don't, consciously or subconsciously, you think you got away with something. 3) See number 1.

You are a church goer, right? Find the spiritual center of that, and rest in it as often as you can tomorrow. Go to that present moment, when you can be in touch with what is, the source of peace. God, whatever you call it. Everything's fine. Those moments. Every time food or body stuff or the desire to use the scale comes up. That's your cue to go there. What do you need the scale for? The present is enough without it. You're enough, your kids are enough, everything's enough!

Man, I need to get my get my online certification as a Universal Life minister or something...

Hope I haven't offended any traditionalists, but I think you know what I'm talking about and it's your thread.

Yay N days!

[lbb (Liz)]

You nailed it again, oolala. Right on.
You're completely right about the scale. I will NOT get on tomorrow. Or anytime, for that matter. Can I tell you how many scales I've gone thru b/c we have gotten rid of them, hid them, etc?
It's funny I had gone maybe a whole year without it, until out of curiosity in the last few weeks I got on. Just to see.
It doesn't help.
I think this morn it was the "get away with" syndrome.

Yes, the illusion of "getting stuff done" being easier with munchies. SO not the case. This was different than "I want a chocolate bar". This was "I'll eat anything to take my mind off stuff and to ease anxiety". Haven't had that in awhile.

Yes, my spiritual place of prayer (which, by the way you are fully in the right to mention, esp. on my thread for pete's sake as it's my life) is my sanity. My kids are my sanity too.
In fact, after I wrote that, I played with the boys, read scriptures with them, said prayers, and all was well in life. That kinda scared me. Not that I have to feel bad, but that "all was just fine". I was like, "okay I'm all good." Moving on.

Everything IS enough. At the moment it's such a big deal. And now I'm watching them sleep, feeling so peaceful and hubby just got home from out of town. All is well in life. All is enough and there is no need for weighing. I think I'll ask hubs to hide the scale (again).

I admire your listening so well to your hunger and not giving in just to eat. I think you could definitely be a "life coach", "Universal Life Minister" haha. We could all vouch for that. No really, though. You express yourself so well and have a deep insight into someone's thoughts. What subject do you teach?

Okay. N days are here. Looking forward. All is well. Simple, not easy. Simple not easy. And repeat.

[Amy3010]

So glad you were able to turn the day around and get to a place of peace in the here and now.

What you said about No S being simple but not easy reminds me of something I just read about meditation - also simple but not easy!

Anyway, so glad it is Monday - have a wonderful week, Liz!

[Sinnie]

I'm with ya there Liz. The weekends are TOUGH. It did me in too.

Sometimes I wish I didn't involve DH because now I want to switch back to a dessert on week nights but he hates that wishy-washy behaviour and says I should set something and just do it. I guess my way of rationalizing my screw ups is to always have a new plan because I wasn't strong enough to stick with the original plan. I constantly tweek vanilla no s and I think it's because it makes me feel better to think the plan failed rather than myself. Sorry, thinking out loud...

Anyways, it's Monday again. I'm feeling a little tired and grumpy now....I really want a sweet and can't have one!

[BeingGreen]

What great wisdom on your thread Liz! Your posts inspire others to chime in and our whole community benefits

So glad to be reminded that life is SO sweet even without constantly adding "Sweets." Raising children and being part of my family and friends is my greatest joy. N days allow me to bask in THAT glow--instead of the glow from inside the fridge

Have a great week all!

[lbb (Liz)]

thanks, all, for your support at kind of a needed time!

today went well!

green!
really wasn't hungry most of the day, but wanted to continue in a 3-meal fashion in order to establish habit.
didn't finish all my oats at breakfast.

walked an hour at 4mph/4 incline on the treadmill.
had lunch about 3pm, a turkey feta salad.

and a yummy dinner.
chicken stir fry with veggies and peanut satay sauce...with quinoa/brown rice.

i feel good and happy and hopeful today.
still physically recovering from the weekend (bloat), but overall just fine.
didn't weigh myself...yay.!
glad to be back to "N".

looking forward to a healthy mind and body week!
xo

[Amy3010]

I'm so glad you had a good day!!!

[rungirl96]

looking forward to a healthy mind and body week!

Me too! My week didn't start so great but it doesn't mean it has to end that way. I'm just like you, all or nothing. I hate it. I can't do anything in moderation it seems. I also have questioned No S, but like you said, it's better now with No S than how I used to eat. Even if I fail some days of the week at least it's not everyday. Like Beck says, spontaneous eating is not for me. I have to stick to not having a choice and start thinking that way on weekends too.

I'm SO jealous of the weather you have! It's 90+ degrees with about the same amount of humidity, pretty much daily here now.

[lbb (Liz)]

fail. later tonight.
i'll go into detail in the morning.
marked, moved on.

[Amy3010]

Me too, Liz! *sigh*
I almost didn't even want to come look at the boards here, but then I thought, just pick myself up and dust myself off and keep on going...the best thing we can do is not give up on ourselves. Hope you have a better day today.

[lbb (Liz)]

Last night I failed. I should just mark, move on but I get so curious about behavior and exactly WHAT lead me to failing. It wasn't just "OH MY WORD...there was a delectable brownie I couldn't pass up!".

Different.

I almost felt on edge from about 5pm on. I had had a substantial breakfast, lunch, did a really hard class at the gym, and then was at the boys' final swim lessons.

I had promised them, since I never let them choose anything at the snack bar that on the last day, they could choose a treat.

I don't know if the whole "it's not fair" Liz came out, or the "why can't I just have a little?" Liz, or what, but looking at all the candy and snack foods made me crazy. I wanted some!

BUT I WITHHELD. Had a diet soda, drove home, and made myself a big dinner plate. Usually after dinner that feeling has subsided but no joke, no matter what I did I had this whiny little toddler in my head asking for another plate, some chocolate, some cookies, etc. I haven't felt "IT" this strong in a VERY long time.

I'm starting to wonder if my "binge" on Sunday made me angst for that relief and "let down" of anxiety more.

"Shut up, voice in head! I'll make school lunches and leave the kitchen!"
"But Liz just have the Kit Kat and you'll be fine. This whole No-S thing doesn't teach you moderation at all. Just to be all or nothing. One Kit-Kat. Give me a break."
"Ya but it probably won't end at one Kit Kat."

I was SO tired of fighting and even had gotten in a tub to relax, but still was feeling the nag.

I finally had the Kit Kat (it was leftover from the snack bar). But this is where it's weird, folks. And where No-S is kinda messing with my brain. In the past I wouldn't have "demonized" a candy bar much at all. Would have had it, enjoyed and done. But since I had had the candy bar, known I shouldn't, and would be going red, I did the "what the hell" because I wanted more "leverage" for me fail.

Dumb, no? But I think we can all relate.

I had bought some pre-made chocolate chip cookies in the deep freezer for a meeting I'm having tonight. I had 3 of those. Gross, even. They were frozen. Then a granola bar. Then a bowl of wheat cereal with milk, and a scoop of peanut butter.

Strangely I DID feel sick yet relieved and calm.

What's that all about.

Moving on, but I have to go through this process because I really HATE the black and white all or nothingness. That's why I have often toyed with MAKING myself have a couple squares of chocolate each night. ONLY that. And to TEACH myself it's okay to have a little. Because right now I know "NO CHOICE!!!!" or "SCREW IT!". And forgive me, but I did listen to the "what the hell" and so I know all that mentally, but it still is a problem I'm dealing with.

On another thread, I gained this wisdom earlier and like it:

oolala said:
"We have to make the decision not to eat when it's HARD to say no, not AFTER we've eaten and it's easy to swear off the food. Saying no when it's hard, repeated, as long as we are not eating too little, will change the pattern.

And remember, food is one of the most basic reinforcers you can find, so it may take longer than you want."

Reinhard, when asked:
"Why is it so hard to change something that I have so desperately wanted to change for so long? It's bizarre when you think about it."
Responded with:

"Because the "I" is really a divided being. There's the rational "I," and the appetitive "I," that wants something quite different. It's like you're siamese twins with a ravenous wild boar. And the way you train your appetite is the same way, basically you'd train a real wild animal: be clear and firm and consistent. Get up every time it knocks you down. As soon as it becomes convinced that you'll really do that, again and again and again, it'll submit, you'll have tamed it. So if you should get knocked off the wagon again, however hard, consider it a teachable moment: your appetite is watching carefully to see how you respond."

Man he nailed it. I had such a divisive self last night!

DO you think it would help if I instilled a small mod of MAKING myself have a really small treat post-dinner?
Where there's nothing else tempting in the house but that?

Almost to train myself that it's not a KING SIZE bar and then some or nothing?

Another lengthy post down the hatchet!

[Sinnie]

Hey Liz,

If you only knew the countless times I've done that...

I don't think it is totally outrageous to include a small sweet each day. Like last night, right after dinner I decided to have the other half a cookie (still pretty good sized for a small treat) and knew I shouldn't. But, I kinda told myself, this much is allowed, and didn't have anything else. I was getting irritable later on at night and came SOOOO close to caving, but instead poured a bit of OJ and water in a glass and quickly removed myself from the kitchen.

But, all or nothing thinking seems to be the catalyst to a whole wealth of binges we have. I am afraid today is going to be one of those days for me. But I'm realizing that thought process and am trying to rectify it my mind so I can accept what I've eaten today that I shouldn't have and not make it worse.

What if we forget about success and failure, forget about the idea of either screwing up or being perfect...and just do what we need to do each day? If one day you are feeling exceptionally down or on edge, you are allowed a little something extra? Slippery Slope? Probably. But don't normal people sometimes just have a donut for the sake of having one? Can't we learn the difference between a bad day and needing that little extra treat, and a regular day where we're fine without it? Sometimes I'm totally able to do that, and it feels great. But excess pressure just turns into "OK NOW ITS TIME TO REALLY DO SOME DAMAGE!!!!" If that continuous thought process wasn't telling us we shouldn't, we shouldn't, we shouldn't...would be rebel so severely?

Sorry these are just some rambling thoughts I have. I feel for you and hope today is better

[rungirl96]

Liz, I was having the same exact thoughts this morning! I also think that way, "nothing" or "make the most of it and have it all". Last night after dinner I consciously made the choice to have dessert. I wanted it! So I had it and I didn't go overboard. It also had me wondering if I'm better off having a little daily rather than nothing? Seems like when I go to nothing, even if it's "just" for 5 weekdays, I go crazy on the weekend! I also decided I was going to spend much less time on the internet reading about weight loss, eating, binging, diets, etc. I feel like I'm overloaded with all of it and wonder if it's just making me think about food more? I almost didn't get on here today, but now that I read your post about yesterday it is reassuring that I'm not the only one that thinks/behaves this way. You're lucky though, you're already skinny! I'm busting out of my jeans, which I intentionally wore today to remind myself why I need to lose some weight. I'm not looking to lose 50 pounds, just 10. Right now I'd be happy with 5 just to be more comfortable. You'd think it wouldn't be so dang hard? I think it's almost worse. Part of my thinking problem is that I can so easily convince myself I don't really need to lose any weight, I can be happy at this size, so that I can justify indulging in whatever sweets I'm wanting at the moment. But it never fails that the next morning, sometimes sooner, I regret it.

I do like the no snacking habit that No S has helped me develop. I used to have a snack at work at 11am and just continue grazing all day. I'd come home feeling so full and yucky, not even wanting dinner, but eating anyway. Passing up seconds hasn't been a problem since I've always loaded my plate up the first time. It's those darn sweets I can't give up.

Hope we both have a better day today!

[oolala53]

Oh, my. Ms. Compulsion- you know her?- is having a field day here. IMHO.

Okay, here is one of the differences, but I need a term for the kind of women who don't struggle with this. Women with no appreciable attachment to food. How about NE's. Normal eaters. NE's have no brain circuitry in place that propels them to keep eating more after they have that cookie they feel like. It may not be there because they just naturally are ectomorphs and hate hate hate to be full. They've never dieted. And a bunch of other things. They rarely have thoughts like, oh, I deserve chocolate. Oh, I'll be good if I have just this one. They just want some and they eat it. And then they stop and forget about it. Very little will. Why? Because no circuitry. ( Circuitry is in charge not only of feelings in the gut but also THOUGHTS IN THE MIND. )Nothing drives them to have more. They FORGET until the next time. They are not better human beings. They have anxiety and frustration and all the rest --though possibly a little less anxiety than some of us with eating issues but it's mostly a coincidence.

If you've dieted much or had an eating disorder, you are not an NE. You have the circuitry. And the circuitry will produce all these thoughts that you're having to defend the habit. And it's likely there forever, but it can be dormant or greatly calmed.

How to thwart the circuitry that keeps the sweets habit?

1. Cold turkey and never have sweets again. Advantage: only one decision to make each day: NO. Perhaps over and over but there are no exceptions, so no dickering. Likely to abate if never aroused again by staying away from offending situations. Better for "slow death" substances like booze and drugs. Hard for ubiquitous palatable food that is more questionably deadly. Disadvantage: Initial intense pain. Lots of failures and WTHeck. Societally freaky so little support there.

2. Taper off. Force yourself to eat less and less. Advantage: you're never apart. Less pain initially. Societally fits. Disadvantage: the substance keeps stimulating the circuitry and it can be take a long time to feel the counteracting good feelings that come from limiting the substances. Keeps the habit frequent. Stimulates WTHeck syndrome if you're not tapering to your satisfaction.

3. Have a small amount often. But only a small amount. Forever. Advantage: you're never apart. Societally fits. Disadvantage: same as #2 but probably faster to get to good feelings from good eating. probably more painful initially, too.

4. Larger amounts less often. Advantage: larger amounts! Yay! likelihood that the good effects of temporary abstinence will build up good counteracting feelings more quickly. Satisfaction with smaller amounts will probably grow. Disadvantage: WTHeck for small failures possible. Likely that the large amounts will start off quite large and continue long enough that eater gets discouraged with the process.

You're always going to run the risk of stimulating WTH.

It's not just the WTH that makes for the compulsion. Once the circuitry is in place, abstinence will at first cause intense desire when the substance is first reintroduced or soon after. It will want to get the habit going again with a vengeance. IF THAT DESIRE IS GIVEN IN TO, THE CIRCUITRY BECOMES STRONGER.

Actually, that may be what WTH is neurochemically.

Sometimes, if the individual's motivation is strong enough- fear of physical death or self-image- a lot of this will recede into the shadows.

There is no easy way. It boils down to HOW OFTEN DO YOU WANT TO MAKE A DECISION to limit the sweets? If you have sweets every day, you will for a long time have to make a decision to limit them to a small amount every day and your body will likely try to get you to eat them more often each day and in larger quantities. So you will have to decide many times a day not to give in. You can train it to accept less, but it will take a long time and take a lot of mental energy to say no over and over. And if you say no, no, no, but then yes, the cycle will become stronger. But it is possible to do.

IF you accept no sweets on weekdays, you will still for awhile have to contend with your body and mind telling you over and over that you don't need to go without each day, that you'll be good, that it's not really a problem, etc. until the circuitry is calmed somewhat. It will get reignited on weekends, but you will mostly deal with that three days a week.

Also, if you lived in a culture that totally supported small sweets frequently with absolutely no guilt but tolerated very little overboard eating, it might work more easily.

I know of maintainers on Spark who have their sweet a day, but it's usually a fat-free pudding cup or frozen yogurt. And they weigh and measure everything years after reaching goal.

So, you decide how often you want to have the fight. If it's worth the daily squabbles --very frequent at first- to you to have a small amount every day, go for it. No one says you can't. It's just reality that for most people, it takes more will to fight every day.

And No S is about being habit-friendly. I think less frequent fighting is habit friendly. But others may think little fights are okay.

[lbb (Liz)]

Wow I can't thank you all enough for your responses! In my prayers last night, I asked that I can just find some peace with food. And today these responses have really helped.

Sinnie & rungirl: thanks for relating so well. I think we can all 3 benefit from oolala's analysis.
Oolala: Yes, Ms. Compulsion. That isn't the first time I've been called that.

Wow I appreciate your comment! It all made SUCH sense. I especially appreciate the part about the circuitry being different in my brain than others. I'm a definite people-watcher and get frustrated quite often about how some people take a bite of something and walk away. I keep THINKING I will be that person one day. But possibly no. I'm just wired different and that's okay.

Reinforcing that circuitry with each further overeating episode...wow that makes me really think. I felt the same high/low/calm/anxiety last night that I felt Sunday night, but to a lesser degree.

The options you have laid out are so clear. Not any one easy, per se, at all, but do-able. Except the first and that's just not feasible. The main common theme: there will be a struggle, as you say, but how hard do I want to struggle? I keep thinking that there is a way for it to never be hard, but that's impossible I guess. I need to figure out which lines I will draw and stick to it.

I cannot kid myself that if I DO introduce the one/sweet/day thing that then it becomes a new compulsion and if I don't necessarily want/need it, I'll feel compelled to have it anyway. Back to compulsion! I was in that boat for awhile in the past. I'd calorie count and allow for an indulgence each night post-dinner, but it would be no more than what I calculated for. It was fine, but not very intuitive.

If I have one sweet/day, say a cookie, if someone knocked on the door with a brownie would I turn that down too?

I don't know.

I do think the point is, No-S is brilliant in LIMITING the amount of times we have to make those "how much/how often" decisions that are taxing in the food department.

But where I think I need to change, as Sinnie pointed out is get out of the bad/good, fail/success, black/white arena. That works for some. But I think I can follow No-S but not be so white-knuckled that if I had had that Kit Kat to calm the raging beast, I would listen to myself and let myself enjoy it. And not be ripping myself apart going into the next food item.

I have some thinking to do, but thank you again for your heart-felt comments.

Oolala: you should make this part of my thread you posted a whole new post in the general discussion. For reals. It's brilliant. If you don't, I would love to copy/paste it. I think MANY sit on the fence with the same issue that I have, and seeing the thought process broken down the way you did could really help.

Thanks again, dear friend.
xo

[oolala53]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Liz.

I don't want to say that I believe that we have a disease because of the circuitry thing, but it is a real phenomenon. But it is never all=powerful.

I agree that an important issue besides the how often issue is how we handle slip ups. It's mostly a mental game. How are we going to keep from making things worse? I don't have one answer for that. It can be different for dif't people. One person might respond well to rational thought techniques, another by building up a metaphor for herself, etc. I like the brain stuff; others might think that was dry. They don't relate. But no matter what, the point is to stop as early in the cycle as possible. And true, if you do have it, you might as well enjoy it.

Title of one of Geneen Roth's books: If You Eat at the Refrigerator, Pull Up a Chair. Meaning, don't sneak and don't wolf the food down.

[Amy3010]

Liz, thanks for your support - and I'm sorry you've been struggling too...it sure isn't easy, is it? At least I am learning so much reading your thread!

Hang in there, friend!

[NoSnacker]

This was a very good thread here, and I read every bit from your most recent struggle...so funny how people with eating issues all can relate to this, and people that don't, can't understand us.

Weekends are hard to recoup from for sure, and denying ourselves a treat causes tension in itself.

I'm either black or white and compulsive about many things...I think part of the battle is being won when we learn along the way..

Hope you have a better day today...I had a green yesterday, but my dinner choice wasn't all that great...good news breakfast and lunch were good choices.

[oolala53]

All meal choices besides sweets are good choices on N S.

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks friends for your support.
Yesterday went well. I just took it easy on the mind.
Did a yoga class, ate three meals of not perfect stuff, etc.
But what helped in the non-compulsive department (note to self), is that I made my plate at dinner, but kinda was a little more loose about it.
I get rigid about my "must have x amount of veggies, protein, fat, carb, etc". And I truly get yummy wonderful satisfying meals that way...but...
At dinner, I made a chicken wrap, threw a couple of raspberries on there, my boys' leftover quesadillas, a few chips, some nuts, etc.
Fitting on one plate.
I'm just trying to get more OUT of my head and INTO DOING good habits.
Easier said than done.

But I notice that I deal a lot of anticipatory anxiety. Like anticipating the next meal and how I'll handle it. Another example, and I know this isn't related, but I noticed it about myself:

I volunteered to take dinner to a girl at church and her family since she just had a baby. I spend SO much time finding the perfect recipes, making the grocery list, and going over and over timing, what I'll need, etc. Tweaking, blah blah blah.
I know most people do this, but it kinda is one of those things I almost revolve my whole life around that until it's done.
Weird. It's like I make it up to be so big like for some reason I won't be able to handle it.

And I know I can. I've made Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners, taken meals to people all the time, etc.
But I have this "what if?" mentality going on. What if I run out of something? What if I don't have enough time. But it never has been that way. And if a "what if" happens, I deal.

I think it trails into food sometimes.

Where I just want the inevitable or worst case scenario to "be over with" because "what if I'm hungry" or "what if I'm tempted".
And forgive my example of taking dinner to someone. Cuz' that's no big deal. But I do it when I have dinner parties, showers at my house, birthday parties. I really LOVE planning that kinda stuff but it takes over my brain, I start to kinda resent it, and then just WANT it over with.
I think this is normal.
Okay now I'm veering away from the point of No-S....sorry.

Anywho, a good day on the horizon. Striving for living in the present.
That's it. The 3 meals/one plate thing are a no-brainer at this point. Of course sweets are my Achilles heel. But I'll live for the now and right this minute, they are NOT a problem. It is 7 in the morning, though.

xoxoxo

[rungirl96]

It's probably the perfectionist in you that gets you stressed out over preparing for events. It goes along with that "all or nothing" thinking, for me anyway. You're right, stay in the present. I can get myself extremely stressed out in no time if I start thinking too much about the future or the past. Basically, right now at this moment everything is good, right? There's a saying I've heard something to the effect of "the reality is never as bad as the grim anticipation". I know I didn't get it quite right, but I think you get the idea.

Hope your day continued to be sugar-problem free

[oolala53]

Alternately, if you're going to suffer over an event that's coming, you might as well just do it once!

[Sinnie]

Holy crap Liz you totally described me to a TEE! That is too funny. I've always been that way. I don't think people could really tell, I think I hide it well, but boy do I stress easily. And over things I feel most people wouldn't. When I have dinner parties, I start preparing the menu well in advance, change it over and over again, perfect it, think about it/the timings/and on and on. And as much as I love cooking, I feel so stressed about and if it will turn out and build it into such a big thing that I sorta just want it to be over with, almost like preparing for a test. "I know most people do this, but it kinda is one of those things I almost revolve my whole life around that until it's done." This.
I think DH started picking up on my anxiety around 6 months after we started dating. He invited me to come to this fancy charity event and I remember panicking about odd things like I don't have a nice enough dress, I have to work that and will I have enough time to get ready etc. He was like "whoa, this is supposed to be fun not stressful?" I think I've gotten better with age but I'm a natural worrier. I believe this definitely translates to food. I heard the fastest way to get serotonin to the brain (calming hormone?) is by eating carbs. I rest my case!

I hope today went well for you Liz. Don't you love morning willpower hehe

[Amy3010]

Same here, Liz - I am the queen of nervous anticipation, worry and pre-planning...drives my husband crazy sometimes but I guess after 20 years he is kind of used to it. And I do agree with everyone that this perfectionism and black and white thinking is what is tripping us all up, in life and in our eating struggles. I am really working hard on letting go of all that (taking mindfulness training at the moment) because I know it is the key to getting everything on an even keel...but old habits die hard! So...time to create some new ones, right?

Have a great day, Liz!

[lbb (Liz)]

[rungirl96]

The library by my house had the book so I picked it up last night. See how OCD I am? I LOVED the definition of hell and living in hell described by Levine. That is so me!

"...compulsive eating is basically a refusal to be fully alive. No matter what we weigh, those of us who are compulsive eaters have anorexia of the soul. We refuse to take in what sustains us. We live lives of deprivation. And when we can't stand it any longer, we binge. The simple act of bolting - of leaving ourselves."

I used to leave myself nightly with wine. Thank God it's been 2 years since I've drank. Now I use food to do the same thing. Trying to fill that hole in myself, the anorexia of the soul.

She also mentioned somewhere "being alone and not feeling lonely". I have yet to learn to be ok with being alone, feeling ok in my own skin. I am really looking forward to reading the rest of the book. The introduction and first 3 chapters I got through last night were great. I'm so thankful Oolala posted on my thread. So helpful.

[lbb (Liz)]

Let's start our "book club" on this book together! I started re-reading today, but don't know about time I'll get to continue until late tonight.
Keep at it and we'll discuss!
xo

[oolala53]

Whiner checking in.

Though I do love so much about Geneen, to me recommending intuitive eating, which is basically what she recommends, is only slightly more helpful than a diet. Believe me, on Spark, I come across those in the middle of the love affair with it, except it's mostly a fantasy lover because the majority of them are wailing over how they couldn't do it, how they binged when they tried to eat the ice cream they "wanted," etc. She even admits in one of her books that people tell her her recommendations for eating are too hard. They were for me and I finally quit blaming myself. And I had done a 2-weekend workshop on the same principles a few years before reading her, as well as Diets Don't Work, by Bob Schwartz, and Fat is a Feminist Issue, yada yada yada. Each had his/her own take, but all recommended eat when hungry stop before full. Bob at least said to spend time coming up with alternative activities.

Geneen spent years in therapy. And she's spent her adult life writing about it. (It occurred to me one day that in a way, she is still involved in the obsession. Just from another side.) I don't know if that's why things clicked for her and she just stopped overeating or not. The point is that I don't think she really knows why, either. She thinks she knows; if you deal with all the negative attitudes and painful experiences associated with food, parents, men, self, the desire to overeat will go away. If you live your dreams from where you are instead of waiting to be thin, the desire will go away.

There's no doubt that these could be part of the puzzle for some people. They're s just not the whole picture.

And many people who do actually finally lose weight don't necessarily do all that. Or maybe they do it more unconsciously. Who knows?

Overeating and food obsession is big and it's likely most people are not going to be healed by one book. My problem with most books, and to some degree they are shackled by publishers, is that they are written as if they can.

Actually, Geneen has one more that I think is also central but is so radical even she can't write about it clearly. And I've said some about it before. It's that human tendency to want things to go our way. That judgment that we make that things should be different.

I've got more on this, but I also have to get stuff out of the way for the cleaning lady.

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, oolala. I think I get woo'd over and over by the thought that it will be all touchy-feely-no-brainer-let-go-of-those-damn-boots once I follow Geneen's book advice, but you're kinda left with some nice thoughts and a "what do I do next?". I like her, but don't relate to a lot of the past equaling the way you eat now. I believe that, but like to live in the "okay, here I am now, who cares about my past, what do I do NOW!?!?!?!?!".

Good reminder not be be sucked in again with intuitive eating. Good habits. Keep it at that.

Ferocious moderation as you said in your other brilliant post (others reading this, go to oolala's thread to check it out).

I've got to get real about what my boundaries are and what I cross and don't.
I do love Vanilla No-S, but with my background in all/nothing and bingeing (well we all have similar backgrounds), I think I really have to stay away from "bad food"/"good food". One bite=tailspin. Because I was a little more loosey-goosey last night with food, I didn't tailspin into a binge because I wasn't like, "OH MY WORD CODE RED!".
Now over years, that could lead to pounds gained. And I need to realize that. I exercised hard today, but not because I overate last night. But what would happen if I didn't exercise? I'd probably be 10 pounds more, no doubt.

In oolala's post about options, I may do best with the little by little battle (#3) that I have to fight each day. Having strict 3 meals/day, no snack, but perhaps a sweet that would fit on my dinner plate. Less at dinner if that treat is coming.

When I have done this in the past, the compulsion lies in planning for that treat each night. I have to realize there are nights with/without. And if I'm dying for it, go get it. But I usually won't. Just can't pre-buy/plan-for, or I'm adding ANOTHER compulsion.

The weekends just give me too much anxiety. As I said earlier about anticipating events ahead, I feel the same with S days. Then they may not live up to anticipation, and I binge like crazy. Because I'm slightly disappointed by the high to low...

So I have to think what I want forever in my life. The compulsion will be there always, so how will I moderate it?:

To eat 3 moderate healthy meals/day (already do)
Exercise daily (already do, except 2 days of the week)
Allow sweets sometimes (this has obviously only been weekends, unless I'm red, but I'm thinking to allow the "sometimes with people)
Never binge, secret eat, eat standing up, driving

Now these things (the last 3) are things I HOPE to have the rest of my life.

I do feel like my life is so full right now with other things that I'm close, but no cigar. I actually eat quite moderately when I am surrounded by my sisters and friends because I don't think about it as much. It's the alone thing...

So there's hope.
Okay I've got miles to go before I rest.....

[rungirl96]

I guess my thought was "spontaneous eating". That's kind of like compulsion right? I can't do spontaneous eating, because I can't do it moderately. The whole setting boundaries is a problem for me in so many areas of my life. Yesterday I read another article on the benefits of "mini-meals" throughout the day. I rolled my eyes when I saw it but I was curious what the arguments were for it. They were all the same, increase metabolism, prevent overeating, blah, blah, blah. I was happy to see that another "expert" commented that mini-meals are not for everyone, that if you have a problem with overeating, 3 meals a day are probably the better way to go. No kidding!

I think I will get something out of Roth's books, but I've learned that the magic answer won't be found in a book or on the internet or in a pill. The convincing thoughts/arguments that Oolala described that go through her head are exactly what I deal with. When that compulsion strikes I can rationalize it so many ways.

I'm with you on the exercise. If I didn't do it I'd be in big trouble, with the way I eat. I guess I enjoy it, but there are many days I have to convince myself to do it. Often it's the thought of what I already eat or what I want to eat that motivates me to do it.

[oolala53]

rungirl, I call it random eating. That's what S days are for. Many eating disorder therapists recommend preplanning meals after an initial period of time of merely recording what is eaten, when, thoughts, circumstances. The client is the one making the choices about what to eat. Eventually, the client has to learn how to be more flexible, but she usually does it on a controlled basis, actually planning to have a binge food in a moderate amount. She does this for many trouble foods. This does not all get done in just a few weeks.

It's a modified version of No S. Since this isn't for compulsive eaters, it's way more chill, but it really is similar.

I really do believe many bingers can become mostly former bingers even without precise daily planning. But, there are so many factors that affect how quickly a person makes the needed changes. Some people are basically managing their symptoms. They don' t have to be symptom-free to be considered recovered.

[lbb (Liz)]

Hi dear friends. Can I preface this post with an
"I just need to talk this out and if you are sick of my ups, downs, ins, outs, and ever-changing resolves", then quit now. GOODBYE! Move to another thread."

Because this is raw. I just finished bawling to my husband. Something I never do. I often don't let him in on the food thing because he so doesn't understand. He tries, I'll give him credit. But it's like: "well what can we do about it?". It felt good to let it all out, but I'm drained. Empty of tears and FULL, BULGING with food.

As stated in my earlier post, I was trying to be more loose with my meals to keep the all/nothing at bay. This works okay in my safe little controlled Liz environment. This doesn't work elsewhere. Let's go back to earlier today...

I had a fine breakfast, exercised, and a good sized lunch. We were gone all afternoon from the house until about 9pm.
My friends and I started a Guild for Seattle Children's hospital to help families who cannot pay for cancer treatments. (Their little girl just recovered from leukemia).
Long story short: our first event was tonight. We rented out a movie theatre, had carnival games, a clown, prizes, etc. I had my 3 boys alone (slightly stressful) and then we watched a movie with everyone.

So included was free movie popcorn. The movie had started at 7pm, but we had been there since 5. I had given my kids dinner earlier, so they just had popcorn and treats. I didn't really know my dinner plan b/c I wasn't hungry at the time. Really, I wasn't. But maybe I should have planned ahead better.

I took a bite of popcorn (look how loosey-goosey I can be!?). Then was determined to finish the bag.
Rationalizing that this was my dinner.
Okay...fine if I had left it at that.

But during the movie, "okay this is my dinner, so I'll finish it off"...I rummaged in my bag, found 2 granola bars (don't even like them, but keep em for kids' emergencies!).
Ate them during movie. Took my mind off the 2 year old who didn't want to stop talking, moving around.

Took him out of the theatre into the lobby. We had a TON of leftover prizes from the carnival, including pounds of fun-size candy bars. They were sitting out still.

I left myself. Well, I kinda had left myself with the popcorn and granola bars.
Fixated. I was watching myself, as oolala mentioned. An observer. Taking note of how single-minded I felt. Like nothing else mattered except filling that now half-full binge. I don't know what "level" I had to reach to fill it up, but I knew I hadn't reached it yet. Isn't that funny? How you know when enough is enough, even when it's WAY over the top?

Had candy after candy. Compulsively. Probably around 12 fun size bars or something. (Yes, I'm serious). Not enjoyed. Just compulsed. In my purse, downing them. What the heck?

Hated myself so badly. The movie ended, we cleaned up and I still felt in a daze even talking to my friends and cleaning up. Like a sugar/salt/binge daze.

Drove home and the husband (who had just walked in from surgery all day) had a huge hawaiian pizza in his hands. He hadn't eaten all day. I of course had 3 slices. Compulsively. Standing up and chatting. Like I wasn't eating. Liz this is ridiculous, stop. But then I think, "who even cares at this point. you're so far gone..."

Too much food. Dreading going to bed b/c I HATE the feeling I wake with and the taste in my mouth post-binge. And the "where do I go from here?" feeling.

Talking to husband tonight, he mentioned that maybe I need to see someone. You can tell he's like, "woah girl what in the heck?".
But I resist a therapist because it takes so long to find the right fit and I feel like I KNOW most everything, but just need to DO differently.
Is No-S "it"? Most likely. I think I'm waffling with so many different ideas in my head, that I need to simplify. STick to Vanilla and even allow all-out-awful-binge S days, if I have to. But keep it to those 2 days. In fear of those binges, I have been looser on N days this week, but let's be honest, it's not helping. Because today, a technical "S day" will not lead me to sweets. I can't imagine eating anything for awhile, actuallY!

Quesion, if you made it this far on this post:
1) In my shoes, do you think Vanilla No-S is the key, regardless of bingeing 2 days/ week.
2) Do any of you see therapists for possible compulsive disorders? Does it help?

xo

[milliem]

Sorry to hear you had a rough day Liz!

NoS is a diet of moderation which can work really well as it doesn't enforce obsessive and unsustainable counting or tracking etc. However, it involves a lot of freedom and that won't work for everyone. You will know better than anyone else what works for you - strictness, moderation, counting, not counting, having 'days off' the diet vs being on it at all times. However I would say that having a bad week doesn't mean that it won't work!

There's only so far an internet discussion forum can go in helping people with their food issues Personally I'm all for therapists although being a psychologist myself maybe I'm biased If you find the right one (I'd go for someone trained and experienced in cognitive behavioural therapy) and go into it willing to learn and change then I'm sure it could help. Some people also find good mileage in learning the principles themselves, there are loads of websites and books out there and I'm sure a few people here have gone down that route and might be able to give you some ideas.

Do you think there is a pattern of binging/not following N day rules when you are super busy? I can't remember if I've seen you post about it before, but it seems that sometimes you are so busy taking care of your kids meals and your hectic social life that you don't plan in time to sit down and eat a good meal yourself! One of the great things about NoS is the structure as it can make eating less stressful - you just know that you eat three times in the day and that's it. However if your life makes that difficult it can be really hard to try and think on the fly 'is this allowed? Is this a fail??'

[BeingGreen]

((((Hugs)))) Liz, so sorry for all the challenges lately. I can see myself in all of your posts (both ups and downs) and I am so empathetic and sympathetic. You are not alone at all.

I too have resisted seeing a therapist because it does take so much time to get to know and trust someone. I have tried in the past, but 1 hour a week just never helped. I didn't feel like the person I was seeing understood my complusive eating anyway.

I've noticed that some women here, with so much pressure to be thin and beautiful (and young ), turn that pressure inward so that the reins are so tight, that when we set down the reins (i.e., S day), the power of that wild horse just lets loose in a way that we can't control. And yet, when we think we'll let the reins out "just a little" ("look how loosey-goosey-free we can be!?), the wild horse whips us along with just as much force. (I hope that metaphor makes sense.)

Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up. Today will be a brighter day. If you stick with Vanilla No-S, at least you have some structure, even if you let loose totally on S days for now.

You are in my thoughts today.
--Brianna

[rungirl96]

Read your post earlier this morning and have been thinking so much about you. I hope you're feeling better. I could totally feel your pain and relate to what you are feeling. Been there too many times myself. My first thought was that maybe you got too hungry? I know if I don't eat on a regularly timed schedule it's way too dangerous. Much more likely that I'll end up eating anything and everything in sight. The suggestion Beck gives about skipping a meal to intentionally go hungry sounded like a really bad idea to me. I know what real hungry feels like, it's just admitting it.

I've thought about the therapy thing too, but I've been to a therapist before on a regular basis for other issues and I can't say it was life changing. I have talked to friends/coworkers about things I was going through and got just as much, if not more, from it than I did the therapist. And it was free! One thing I have thought about checking out but have been reluctant to is a support group, like Overeaters Anonymous (cause that's the only one I know of). I still haven't figured out how OA works because with a substance abuse problem you totally abstain from the substance. You can't do that with food! I've tried doing it with sugar and it always backfires. I think the Beck book has a lot of great ideas/techniques, if I can apply them. The problem is that unless I read it daily, which I probably won't, it won't work too well. Guess that's why I was thinking a support group might help. The online group is great, but I know it's not as helpful as in person meetings or talking to someone.

I think my entire week was red this past week, not even one green day, but I'm not beating myself up. I have to go back to N days w/o any mods and stop worrying about how bad the weekend might be. At least I will have more sane days that way than what I did this past week - eat what I want, when I want, and how much I want. No good.

I hope being at the Temple helped gave you some peace and you're feeling better.

[lbb (Liz)]

Oh man are you all the just the best or what?
I feel the sincerity running through the modems here!

I DO feel better. I went on a run, to the temple, and am back in action.

Sometimes it just takes going low low low in order to get back and re-evaluate things.

Listened to Reinhard's podcasts on my run about "negative qualification" and "strictness". He really is brilliant. It helped a ton. PLEASE listen to them.

I felt some "inspiration" today. I do believe we are ALL entitled to our own personal revelation (and as rungirl said about no book having any secret answer...). Mine come after being really open to everyone's advice and then taking it all and making it work.

I'm a simple person and have somehow over-complicated the No-S thing. Going back to Vanilla. I'd rather have 2 crazy S days than quite a few crazy N days and S days.

I need less decisions to make. I don't (obviously) do well with spontaneity. So I need to limit the amount of times I have to deal with it (on the weekend).

You're right, rungirl. I may have been hungry. I easily push away my hunger and think I don't need to eat for awhile until it gets explosive. Taking care of everyone else's needs and pretending I don't have any....

I love it here on the forum, but since I'm a compulsive person, I have to limit things. I think I will only check in with "negative qualification" and that way, it will be "less expensive" and emphasize mainly when things are bad, over good.

I just want No-S to become a PART Of my life and not something I'm just doing for now. And checking in daily and stuff is kinda getting to be a new compulsion, perhaps? Just thoughts.

Love Reinhard's simplicity. I need to just take it at face-value. I love when he talks about eating a pomegranate before dinner. It's nothing, really. But nothing is of itself. What will that mean for snacking in the future?

And when I have a slip-up, the more I feel awful about it, I'm actually guaranteeing it more to happen again. I'm drawing a line of credit and making it better somehow, rather than moving on.

So:
Vanilla No-S
S-Events
Negative Qualification only. I won't be recording on good stuff. Just trying to make it "of course it was green", so the negative will have more impact.

Love you all and thanks for your empathy and concern. Everything is much more dramatic at the time, especially at night, and especially during the time of month! So when I read my post from last night, I'm all: woah, girl!

So this morning my head is a bit clearer.
Happy weekend to all!

p.s. Thanks for your advice about therapists. I'll hold off for now since I have great support systems and cannot afford it! But always am open to it!

[Sinnie]

Everything you wrote about makes perfect sense. I've been there many times too. I'm with you on this. Let's Simplify. I'll re-read some podcasts. Less talk, more walk? I know you can do it. We all can. Mind over matter. Clear lines in the sand. Make boundaries and do not cross them!

Good luck this weekend *hugs*

[lbb (Liz)]

S day observance.
Thought I wouldn't want any sweets ever again, but also wanted to treat this as an S day.
Had 3 good healthy meals. Went on a run.
Took my 2 year old out for ice cream.
Enjoyed a huge self-serve frozen yogurt with a waffle cone.
Then I could feel the brain circuitry trigger the go! go! go! urgency.
I couldn't just rest with that.
Knowing it was an S day, technically, I bought a huge chocolate chip cookie.
It was delectable. A lot, but I'm fine.
And that's that.

[milliem]

I'm a simple person and have somehow over-complicated the No-S thing. Going back to Vanilla. I'd rather have 2 crazy S days than quite a few crazy N days and S days.

That sounds like a good decision for you Reinhard always says that N days should be close to fully compliant before fiddling with S days - it's kind of hard to take sometimes when S days feel wild and so different to N days but I reckon there's wisdom in there somewhere

[lbb (Liz)]

Thank you. I feel peace in that decision. Sometimes I realize I just have to buck up and do what I thought was harder... Vanilla. When in all reality, it's the "easier" long term choice. Less up and down!

[Figuresgirl]

FAIL! I'm so mad at myself but I should know myself better.
I'm a bit thrown off with a houseguest. Didn't eat at normal time for dinner.
Made pizzas, kept eating a little from my kids' plates and then we frosted/made these AWESOME almond butter sugar cookies.
I just ate one. I don't know WHY I didn't think that would make me fail.
But then I just kept SHOVELING the heck of them into my mouth...almost to just get er' done.
I know I should have had one, but I think I realized, "oh crap it's a fail day anyways now, I may as well have a bunch".
So, according to negative tracking, I'm embarrassed to say I had about 6 2-inch homemade sugar cookies with cream cheese/almond frosting.
Yes. 6. Maybe even 7. Like I said, I kinda went unconscious.
Usually, this isn't a problem b/c I wouldn't even normally MAKE cookies till' an S day, but because I have my MIL visiting, we decided to do st. patrick's fun cookies.
Sheesh.
Any ideas? I'm SO tempted to NOT take those S days this weekend. Will I regret it?
And to "hold back" tomorrow.
When all ya'll over-do it, do you just jump on the wagon with your 3 meals the next day?
Or hold back?
Advice, much?
Thanks friends.

I can totally relate to the cookie binge! Saturdays are my baking day, which inevitably ends up being a binge on the cookie dough, and then feeling awful and beating myself up. I've just joined the "No S" so I'm excited to be a bit more structured but not restrained. Like you mentioned, I feel if I'm restrained then I overdo it more later on...no sure how you work, but that's been my experience.

[lbb (Liz)]

Not beating myself up at all about my reds last week and über treat weekend. But excited about this vanilla business for awhile.
Can't say that I don't feel terribly bloated today. Yikes.
Will track negative and my planned s events only.
Yesterday's S events included a large delicious chocolate macaroon cookie from a bakery.
Then at night I baked cookies with the boys for a meeting I had last night.
I ended up acting a fair amount of dough and cookies but tried to just enjoy it. In the past I realize I really have a hard time letting myself enjoy any food actually which may lead to my binges.
At the meeting my friend brought some gummy bears and banana bread and I had a fair amount of those too.
Adios!

[Amy3010]

Hi Liz, I've not been on the boards since Saturday and I'm sorry I missed what you were going through - what you described at the movie theater really hit me, because I've been in that position myself. I'm so glad that there was so much support from all the responses on your thread, because ultimately it comes down to not beating ourselves up so much when we mess up, and it sounds like you managed to get it turned around, so good for you!

We've all had those weeks with one fail after another (I know I've had several) and I think we just need to keep plugging along...as for therapy, I think if you are lucky to find the right person therapy can be a godsend, but it's not a panacea for everything and it's still hard work at the end of the day. The important thing is to have some kind of support, whether it be a therapist, friends, fellow No-Sers...

I hope you have a great week this week and please know that your honesty and bravery in sharing your struggles is also helping those of us who are on this journey with you. Big hugs!

[Sinnie]

Liz, I think the negative tracking is such a good idea. It sort of lets us "fess up" without putting too much effort into tracking. Everything else is default so doesn't need to be explicitly stated, right? I am hoping just listing the little benders here and there will be motivating. Good luck this week girl

[tobiasmom]

You are so right. One day at a time. Thanks for the encouragement!

[lbb (Liz)]

Oh man it hurts to check-in with a negative qualification.

I guess that's why it's a big motivator.
Tonight was weird. After a sub-par dinner (4 different weird left-overs thrown on a plate), my husband found the leftover chocolate chip cookies in the freezer from the weekend. I had forgotten we had them.

I ate dinner and was done.

While doing dishes, about 4 cookie stared me in the face.
It's amazing. The rationalization that goes on in one's brain. I really waited awhile but couldn't leave the stupid things alone. How can I be so stern and full of resistance until 8pm? Not even flinching at a piece of chocolate?

But at 8pm, post-dinner, I'm dying. Then I'm just visualizing the chocolate in my mouth.

What do I do?
Nibble at the rest of them...eating out the chocolate parts.

I thought, okay red. No big deal. Moving on. But I felt so "ripped off". Like, okay let's now go get something really good and delicious.

I know that's dumb. But we were out of milk for the next morning, so I went to the store. I didn't buy any treats there, but driving home I picked up a McDonald's sundae and 2 chocolate chip cookies. Did the old familiar eating in car incident. Blegh, Liz.

After working so hard at the gym today, too? My pants feel so snug.

Really? Really.

So there you have it.
I had almost even put a "green" in the calendar just before dinner because the day was going so swimmingly.

But one bite and done. How is it that at the time, it seems so right when it truly is NOT moderate and NOT reasonable AT ALL? Any normal eater doesn't do that.

I did realize one positive thing out of all of this. Eating the cookies and deciding to not kill myself about it didn't make the "binge" or "cheat" that much more fun. It was kinda routine and obligatory. You know when your body is doing something but your mind is kinda like, "okay I don't even want to be eating this still, but I must because it's just "what ya do" when you overeat."...?
But in all reality, it would have been okay to stop. It was habit. Oh man that circuitry is deep.

How easy to forget it, though. I have one awesome green day and think I'm floating away into a sea of vanilla and green.
Then woah. A deep deep shade of red. The reddest you could get.

But wallow no more. Because then I'm making it feel like I "paid for my debt" and I didn't. Never will be able to take back that time I had to make a good habit. So move on I must.
xoxo

[Amy3010]

Yes, I know, I've felt that same feeling of remorse, annoyance and disappointment in myself before - how come when things are going so well that we just sabotage ourselves???

BUT...at then end the only way forward is to say the past is the past. We are going to keep having ups and downs - we are just going to get better at getting past the downs, recovering from them a bit quicker and beating ourselves up a bit less...which is what it sounds like you are doing. So keep on keeping on, Liz!

Hope you have a good day today!

[Sinnie]

I did the same thing last night, except mine was with peanut butter bars (extremely rich) and chips. Feel just awful this morning. Not sure if it's the binge or what, but I just feel soooo tired and grumpy.

Hugs to ya. I feel where you're coming from.

[Amy3010]

Hope your yesterday was good and that your today goes even better!
Hugs!

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks, Amy.
YES it was green and I feel so good in the morning after.
I need to remember this feeling of no-regret, no-bloat.
B: pb oats, banana
yoga class
L: huge chicken salad
D: 2 eggs, 2 pieces toast, veggies

Can't say that at night it's not tempting to get a treat. But I withheld. My husband was having a small bowl of chocolate chips/peanut butter (getting creative since we have no official treats) and I was tempted but it's not worth it!

Focusing on the good habits and focusing on S days and how I can make them SPECIAL instead of just free-for all.
But mainly a really busy time with end-of-year, so trying to lock away the good habits so I'm not thinking of food or regretting food.
xo

[Jennifer24747]

That's one of the things that I'm trying to realize--keeping S days special. Every weekend will be more of a treat than ever before.

Kudos on resisting the chocolate and peanut butter!! You go, girl!

[Amy3010]

Liz, you're doing so well! Have a great day today (in spite of all the end of year business!

[lbb (Liz)]

said i'd only check-in with "negative qualification", and will but also have to always take note when i feel good!
i had another green yesterday and i just love waking up not bloated/sick.
remember this liz!
i also exercised in the late afternoon instead of morning yesterday and it kinda helped me at night. had a nice big dinner of eggs, turkey, veggie scramble on toast and it was just the perfect thing.

went to trader joes last night for groceries and had to think of my s-days coming up. i bought some (get this) "chocolate covered caramel popcorn". does that sound delectable?

and some granola (just the clusters) that i want to try out.

on s days, i like the 3 meal structure, but am trying to find a way to make them special. like a different granola (instead of my everyday oats) for breakfast. and then maybe after dinner i'll share that popcorn with myself and the fam. we are going out to dinner with friends saturday, so that in itself may be an "s event".

like others have said, just don't wanna ruin the good feeling i have all week, but don't want to deprive.

take care, all.

[rungirl96]

Yay Liz! Glad you've had some good days and are feeling the wonderful effects. Yep, it really helps to remember how waking up in the morning feels like on those days, as opposed to those awful "hangover" mornings. I'm hoping my weekend will be moderate, so that I don't have the Monday morning hangover I usually do. Hope you have a great weekend too!

[NoSnacker]

Thanks Liz, I can relate to how wonderful it feels not to wake up bloated and feeling terrible.

I hope to have a moderate weekend as well. Food has to stop being my entertainment and the habit has to take a new direction.

Between you, Amy and others here, I'm motivated again..

Thank you, thank you!

[Jennifer24747]

I looove waking up feeling light, empty, and energized after a day of following NoS! It's amazing! Another thing that helps me is drinking lots of water throughout the day. Helps keep the system flushed, keeps you hydrated, and works wonders for the skin. It also seems to help me stop cravings, too...not completely, but they're easier to ignore.

[Amy3010]

Yay, Liz! I actually think it is important, too, to celebrate our success and give ourselves a pat on the back - accentuate the positive, right?

I am wishing you a peacefully moderate weekend! Enjoy those special treats from Trader Joe's!

[lbb (Liz)]

Had a very enjoyable S day yesterday. I ate a fair amount of treats, but my day was full and busy and fun.
Morning started with wholegrain pancakes which I NEVER eat. They were delightful.
Oh, and a little granola that I wanted to try from Trader Joes.
Went on a long run with a friend.
Had a decent salad for lunch.
Then mid-afternoon I sat down with a plate of milk chocolate covered popcorn from Trader Joes. They were good, but I was DYING over them.
Went out to dinner with friends to this AMAZING restaurant. It's a shared plate kind of thing. Which was nice that it was an S day for, because I have no idea how much I ate. But I got full quite quickly. And the dishes were quite healthy and amazing!
("blasted broccoli", pear gorgonzola flatbread, pork tacos, ribs).
We then walked to frozen yogurt. Build your own. I made a good sized one with butterfinger and reese on top. SOOOO good.
Came home, took home the babysitter and wasn't hungry.
But finished off the chocolate chip cookies I had left for the sitter/kids while I did some computer work.
Didn't feel too guilty about it.
But just want to focus on feeling good because I LOVE not feeling bloated and sick.

Went on a run this morning, had some oatmeal and my boys' leftover pancakes (an "S"!).

Off to church and I made pork mexican salads for Father's Day tonight.
Dessert will be chocolate chip cookies, since those are his favorite.

There are only about 12 dough balls left. So I'll have a couple and have the rest finished off by the family, I'm sure!

Yay for S days getting a little better.

[oolala53]

Hi, Liz. Been away from reliable internet.

Glad you feel good! I see you had some tough times- a day and aftermath.

Fie on the habit of imagining how good something will taste or feel going down. Bingers spend more time on that than they do on remembering the negative effects of overeating. When they work on reversing it, things are better. But that, too, is not changed in a day. And that dang desire to have sweets because someone else is having them. Should we wait ONLY for those opportunities? Oh, this conundrum.

Had a successful S day by the standards but I'm still disappointed. Will write more on my thread later. I'm going to dance class soon.

[Amy3010]

Yay!!! I am so happy to read this - you sound so peaceful about the weekend, that's wonderful!

Onwards and upwards, right? Let's have a great week!

[lbb (Liz)]

Okay S days. Definitely better than others, but way way too much cookie dough .
Today was great.
Until I had a red.
I don't know why I thought I was immune.
During piano lessons for my oldest, there is about 25 minutes to kill. Not long enough to go home, and too rainy for the park.
Great Harvest bread bakery is right there. I took the boys in to choose a breadstick. Of course, they begged for the pumpkin cookie (1) and the blueberry muffin (1). I got those two. They couldn't finish them (should have known) and of course without thinking I put them in my mouth.
Could have just been like "oops". Moving on!
But it's like I had this free pass to keep going because I was like: well, good, liz, now make the most of it. And ordered my OWN cookie.

I had already kinda had a MAJOR headache all day, it was a rainy depressing Monday, and maybe I was suffering sugar headaches from the rest of the day.
So I conked out with food but of course.
Not as bad a binge as in the past, but still one nonetheless.
So, here it is:
Break: oats
Exercise: 90 minutes walking
Lunch: HUGE chicken veggie feta salad
Negative Qualification:
pumpkin cookie+cream cheese frosting
slice of cinnamon bread
3 fiber one granola bars (while driving...GROSS)
handful teddy grahams
2 big cheese quesadillas+avocado+creamy dressing
I feel really really tired and am going to bed.
No need to beat up myself, but think I wasn't really living in the present today.Just trying to get thru the day with an awful headache and was looking for a way to escape, perhaps?
No beating up. Just getting better at things...SLOWLY.
Did just order the book "Mindless Eating" on Amazon. Not thinking "oh it's the answer" because I believe truly in No-S, but any bit helps!
Thanks for all your encouraging words!

[Amy3010]

I feel for you, Liz - I've had many a day like that... I have found that being in physical pain makes it worse (or being cold or having to go to the bathroom - any kind of physical discomfort really) - we reach for the one thing we have conditioned ourselves to reach for when we need comfort - food. When we should have taken some ibuprofin or put on a sweater!

Don't beat yourself up about it - hope today goes better!
Hugs

[Jennifer24747]

And to add onto what Amy said--you can't control a headache, but you can control food. I don't mean it in a "disciplined eating" way, either--I mean it as in, you can control the pleasure it gives you, if that makes sense? You know chocolate will make you feel better, even temporarily. Chocolate will always be there, always taste the same.

I know when I don't feel well, it's so much easier to make excuses to eat my comfort foods!

The next day will be better.

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks Amy and Jennifer!
Today will be good.
Man I learned a lesson though last night.
I CRASHED! And I believe it was a white sugar/carb crash.
And it's SO not worth it. It was different than any other binge. Quantity-wise, I didn't have SOOO much, but high carb bready stuff and I just couldn't keep my eyes open at 8pm!
Maybe there were other factors, but I didn't like it one bit!
So for that reason alone, staying green to feel like myself again.!

[MJ7910]

gosh i can relate. this tends to be how my binges are. i have one mistake and think WTH and then go crazy. i set up a habit cal for "only one mess up" hoping that if i got back on track i'd have green on those calendars if i messed up just once. and i think that will be effective for me once that happens. because inevitably it will happen, we all mess up. i am just trying to rein in the damage now. in the past i would let it spiral out of control and now i'm trying to limit that. but i can relate to you, i've definitely had days like that. and headaches make it worse! i get bad ones at times

[lbb (Liz)]

Thanks for the good idea, MJ7910. I think I should do that, too.
In the podcasts I've listened to (only a few), it talks so much about how this SHOULDN'T be a struggle.
For me, the 3 meals/day thing, one plate isn't that hard, but I MAKE it hard. Kinda finagling (sp?) more confusing stuff into it.
Yesterday, if I had had the bites of my son's cookie which was TO DIE FOR and have just ENJOYED HOW AWESOME those bites were....guilt-free, I wouldn't have tail-spinned.
Of course the bites shouldn't have happened, but in reality, this certain situation WILL happen again. And hopefully I'll resist.
But if I don't, I don't want it to mess anything up.
What I could have done instead...enjoyed those bites. Left as if nothing had happened, had dinner as planned.
Or even bought a cookie, for the freezer for the weekend.
BUt instead I gave it my permission to go on a "bender" with whatever was around.
Not fun. Not worth it.
That "bender" really was a slap in the face, or punishment to myself for having broken a rule, really. Because after the 2nd granola bar, I was like, "okay done, don't feel good."
But that drill sergeant in my head was like, "you must finish what you started Liz". "Make yourself pay!".
Dumb, I know.
Well, just thought I'd play it out to help with next time.
adios.

[MJ7910]

maybe that's what WTH effect is "Make yourself pay"

wow that is deep. because i just had a bad binge and sometimes i wonder if it's really that i am abusing myself for the one mess up. that i know i messed up and i want to somehow overdo it. interesting stuff there. really hits home.

[lbb (Liz)]

Frustrated with myself today.
Seeing as I had a red fail yesterday, I decided I wouldn't eat till hungry today.
And I really felt no hunger until about 1:30pm.
During which I had a bowl of oatmeal, half a banana, and some pb.
Great and dandy.
Some friends invited us over for "Happy Hour" at 5pm.
I don't drink, and was planning on not eating, either, but to have a regular dinner at home (it was only going till 6). I withheld any food. Held my boys' plates and all. But almost leaving, I took a bite of some crackers/cheese. Then a handful of popcorn.
Now, left at that, fine.
But it's like I was all, "oh boy here we go again...."
And though I ate nothing more at the party ( I don't love eating in front of others), we drove home and I ate the kitchen sink.
So to speak
Lots of food.
Back to square one.
I have not lost weight on No-S. I'm trying to gain better habits.
But maybe it's feeding my obsession.
Feeling really confused right now. When I have a streak of greens, Im shouting "No-S" off the rooftops, but when I'm in the red, I'm feeling really doubtful about all of it.
Hmm... some thinking to do for sure.

[MJ7910]

why does it seem that when we make one slip it opens the floodgates and WTH feeling slips in? that is what i have been struggling with, and that is why i did that other color for just one mess up. but i think when i mess up i beat myself up so badly that i just want to "make myself pay" but i frame it as "well, i will just eat more" which ends up making me feel worse and making myself "pay"...

i found that the one thing that fueled my obsession was calorie counting, not this. calorie counting was so much more detrimental to my mental state. this i can do. i just need to physically sit down with one plate. no virtual plating things. i have proven i just can't do it. it is too hard.

so i don't know if that will work for you but that is my plan from here on out. i will be putting my dinner on a plate and just eat that, no more than that. i think it will help because the other way just doesn't work for me.

[lbb (Liz)]

I had a little "aha" moment last night.
My brain felt so full.
My tummy felt enormous from all that granola and such.
I just was confused and "what do I eat tomorrow since I overdid it today?"
See, that's where yesterday's fail came about. I got so thrown off trying to get back to hunger feelings, that I didn't eat till about 1:30 and then was messed up.
So back to my "aha"...I'm over-complicating things.
I need to think like a man (forgive me men, but I promise this is a compliment).
Just 3 meals. Done and done.
Don't think too much about the composite (enough carbs? enough protein?), just 3 plates. I can always have a better plate next time if I don't like it the first time.
No "payback".
Since I binged last night, I'll still go back to my 3 plates/day.
No more wallowing and reading every single book to try and "figure it out".

The only thing that I want to change for next time is the WTH syndrome. And reading about the brain chemistry really helps. Oolala has said lots about this...how our brain goes into automatic mode and takes the "easy route", or what we have done over and over.
Like last night, it was like something else takes over me other than my goals and I was just "finishing what I started" because that's all my brain knows.

I need to BREAK THE CIRCUIT. BREAK THE CYCLE!
I need an extra incentive that when I have that one bite, something I do to combat the WTH.
Almost erase that I did it and go about the next meal eXACTLY as planned, hungry still or not.

Tips?

[MJ7910]

maybe make a streak of breaking WTH cycle, start counting that streak instead of doing a general habit cal?

like if i do mess up today it still counts as a success if i get back on track after just one mess up. maybe just for a bit until you are able to control things again. if it's more than one mess up, doesn't count as a success.... this is the best i have right now. would love to hear more.

[rungirl96]

I'm having the same kind of days you are. I'm sick of my insanity with eating. I've been like this since I was a teenager. Have lost weight after each of my kids and then end up back to the mid-130's, which I think I've been at most of my life. It felt good being skinny. It was nice to have more self confidence and self esteem. Why can't I remember that and resist my cravings?

I don't know how to control the WTH effect. For me it seems like just one bite of chocolate/cake increases the craving. I can't stop (usually) with just one bite. If I know it's something I'm not supposed to be eating and I give in, like on an N day, it just intensifies the indulgence. I have really been thinking that I have to stop the restricting mentallity altogether. No more N days or S days. Just moderate days. No guilt. No risk of not being perfect. I'm pretty sure I can control the urge to snack or go back for seconds. That's been the easiest part of No S for me.

I read your first daily check in post. Just curious, did you lose weight on Paleo? A lot of people on Sparkpeople mention it, but I haven't learned much about it. Is it the same as clean eating? I guess I haven't researched it because I know if it involves excluding a certain food or food group it won't work for me.

[oolala53]

Preach alert.

Liz, you said it yourself. Commit to Vanilla! It's reasonable, fair, and smart. What's the longest you've ever gone on it?

If you crash the car one day, just have very small meals until you start feeling more balanced. But don't skip them. (Then you wont' feel justified in overdoing it later.)

May I gently suggest that you have to add one rule: eat your own food only. No finishing your children's food! EVER. No choice! It's just not done. Do you think those French mommies who love their bread, wine, cheese, etc., go popping their enfants leftovers in their mouths? I doubt it. Just because it is many women's habit doesn't mean it has to be yours. It's okay to be elite in this. Pretend you're a skinny woman who just couldn't eat another bite. They let the kids leave food all the time and don't feel they're missing out or wasting anything. They just know they feel better when they don't have those extra bites.

And for you I would say it would be better to eat in front of the neighbors than to have handfuls of snack food before you go and then eat nothing in company. But even better just to ask for water with lemon and enjoy the company, if you have a meal coming up. Or since it was such a short time, consider virtual plating for those events, IF you think it's worth it.

Being compassionate and curious, why did you eat the crackers and popcorn before you left? What is telling you it's okay to give in to those impulses? Are you thinking again that it just isn't fair that you should have to be so careful, that you're not actually overweight so why can't you just have a bite of things when you want them, that you have to make sure you won't eat in front of the neighbors, etc.?

It almost doesn't matter what the thoughts are except to recognize that they are just mirages! They are the thoughts your brain produces to get you to reinforce the habit. They have nothing to do with reality! As Reinhard implies, it's just plain old animal habit. But speaking to you in your reasonable-sounding voice. Just lead the big ol' water buffalo away from the food. (Now don't go thinking I'm talking about your size!) If the buffalo doesn't get food in any one place, it will quit asking for it there. Train it to leave you alone!

The only way you can learn to thwart the WTH effect is to actually do it, all the while telling yourself that it is just another path to miseryville. Make the choice WHEN THE MOMENT ARRIVES AND IT IS HARD to stop after one item. Beware the mirage thoughts. But don't invite those moments, if possible!

In any case, see if you can get clear that for your purposes, there is NO good reason to deviate from Vanilla. No GOOD reason. Your brain pattern/buffalo is looking for any chink in the armor, any way to get around the rules. There isn't any! Isn't that great? If you feed yourself delicious foods you like at meals, you are not missing out. If you pay attention to everything else in the moment (when you have a desire to eat outside of the rules, say to share with others) you'll usually find that you can enjoy the moment without food, too.

Now have a great finish to today and two good days after today before the weekend.

Hope I haven't been too preachy.

[Jennifer24747]

I also like the idea of using the Habit Cal to track your behavior--but I'd say make a calender titled "stopped a binge" instead of still counting a slip-up as a NoS success. I think seeing exactly when you had the willpower to quit might be more helpful.

Like oolala said, you aren't overweight. We have the fact that we're just looking for normalcy in eating patterns in common. The difference is, you have kids and you can't deprive them of things like sweets or snacks, because that's normal for kids! But it makes it hard for you--I know if I've got stuff in the house, I'll sit and think about it until I give in. The reason why I've been relatively successful is because I've cast out all the junk food/desserts...but that's not an option for you.

What's been helping me is breaking my routine. If you usually binge in the evening, what are you doing before the binge starts? Try to change it up, even if it means just sitting in a different room of the house. Don't take granola bars in the car with you, or if you do, but them somewhere way out of reach. Like in the trunk.

I feel like habits are sustained by sensory memory--if you're seeing the same things, doing an ordinary routine, then your habit will persist because your body's on autopilot. It's like...well, this is stupid, but when my fiance cleaned the bathroom the other day, he moved the soap dispenser from the right side of the sink to the left. I kept reaching for it on the right, only to find my face wash there instead of handsoap. If I had taken the same dispenser and put it on, say, the kitchen sink, I wouldn't have had that problem because it's a new habit. There isn't a side of the sink that I KNOW that soap's going to be.

So if you're starting to crave some food, just pause and readjust. Think about how you can start a new "norm" that doesn't involve eating.

Hope that helps.

[lbb (Liz)]

Thank you my dear friends for your extremely HELPFUL ADVICE!
Wow. I feel so blessed with very well-thought-out words from you!

I haven't check in for a bit because end-of-school has been SO busy. But alas, I would like to report the last 2 days as Vanilla!

I have taken your advice, oolala and committed. (yet again).

Two days ago, my neighbor brought over a brownie that I ate after dinner. But ended after that. Just moved on. And didn't give into guilt (which would have been detrimental).

1) BRILLIANT about NOT eating my kids' foods. That is just not right..."sloppy seconds". I deserve more.

2) Being a caretaker, I'm so often making sure everyone else is fed, and I haven't thought much about what I will eat. I have a routine for break/lunch, but at dinner, if it's something I don't like (maybe I only feed my family what I would eat), then I'm stuck. So, time to re-evaluate our meals. So often husband eats at the hospital, so I just make tortillas, noodles, or kid-food.

3) The other night at "Happy Hour" I think I had no clear-cut food dinner plan awaiting me at home. And what made me give in last-minute: we stayed longer than I thought and I actually think in my head I made the decision: okay my willpower is gone and I am gonna eat! Binge! First mistake: all I had had that day was a bowl of oats because I was "making up" for the binge the night previous. No "making up".

4) Working on just eating out of hunger only. Plain and simple. Started tracking on my iPhone before a meal, my hunger/fullness level from 1-10. (1=starving, 10=thanksgiving/binge full). This morning breakfast, post-run, it was about a 2. And I think I ate to about an 8, after my oatmeal. I like this level of hunger since I feel vibrant, pleasantly full, not sick, and that I could run around the block if needed. This is important for me since I am noticing I definitely listen to my HUNGER, but rarely have listened to my FULLNESS. I want to change that habit.

5) Jennifer: I love what you said about sensory memory! So true. I'll drive by certain bakeries and start a craving. So I need to take another route. I have associated my "get-aways" when hubby comes home and I need a break a "get-away" with food. Which is not good. Goes WAY back to high school and college when I had to leave the house and I'd go buy bagels, ice cream and candy and eat in the car. No bueno. STOP THE CYCLE

After all this writing and analyzing, I think the main thing I can "take-home" with me is that my ONE SINGLE GOAL, regardless of vanilla is to NOT BINGE.
I like 3 meals/day. I like no snacks. And I like vanilla.
But alas, I'm very hard on myself and I know that the pressure to be vanilla once I've had a minor slip, WILL no doubt send me bingeing.

So, no bingeing will still give a green on my calendar. This is no reason for me to eat sweets. Like I haven't for 2 days. I've been vanilla. But if tonight at my sons' end of school bbq, I slip and have one cookie, I will still be green if it JUST STAYS AT THAT ONE COOKIE.

This is not kosher to some, but for me, it works. I am thinking long-term here, and I really want to be a person where food isn't such a big deal. The last 2 days I've felt really good and not food obsessed since I kinda relieved the pressure from myself about messing up. I pretty much said, "Liz, you don't have to be perfect. If in case you slip, you have not FAILED. You only FAIL if you binge."
That's helping and I feel good and healthy.

Here's to another awesome day.

I'm grateful for all the support from you friends. For some reason I wasn't getting emails that I had had posts on my thread, so it was a joy to read a couple days later when I check in. Thank you and happy, sane weekend to all! Let's enjoy life like crazy. Food is only to sustain us!

[oolala53]

Go with that plan, Liz. You didn't come to No S overweight, right? It wasn't as if you were consistently only overeating. You wanted to even things out and overcome the WTH effect, even if you didn't know it then. If this keeps you even, perfect.

I often don't know exactly what I will have at a meal, but I just always have starches, protein, fats, sauces, and freggies in the larder. I don't mind leftovers so I often an reheating things. I almost never take longer than 10 minutes to heat dinner. I don't know what I'd do if I were cooking it from scratch every day! But I might if I had a family.

[lbb (Liz)]

A good day. Wiped out from not much sleep last night. Woke up early and went on a run. Most of my energy is in the morning and then it wanes from theron out.
Last day of school today and it RAINED CATS AND DOGS.
Of course, since it's Seattle we still had our picnic outside. Because that's what ya do! Still was warming up until a minute ago.
No binge! Yahoo. Had 3 meals and a couple dove chocolates. WAHOO.
Really sucked and enjoyed them. Not guiltily stuffing them in.

Oolala: thanks for your advice and support.
I did not start No-S two years ago overweight.
Nor did I re-start it overweight.
The weird thing about me, is that I have varied between 120-125 for the most part these past 2 years.
Sometimes lower (like 118 on paleo), sometimes higher (128-ish during holidays).
Right now, I think I'm around 126/7.
Now I'm not one to take the scale seriously. Because I know it varies, I'm at a healthy weight, etc.
HOWEVER, I re-started No-S in March at 122 and am about 5 pounds heavier right now. I HAVE been doing lots of weights and stuff.
But I think my downfall has been the S-days and then the subsequent what-the-hecks.
So, alas I think I'm finding my groove back. I started reading "Mindless Eating" and there are so many good nuggets of wisdome I'll share when I'm not falling asleep.
XOXOXO
Happy weekend.

[Amy3010]

Hi Liz, I'm just catching up on the posts here since Tuesday - a lot of insights here! I'm sorry you've had a couple of rough days but it sounds like you turned it around. And you are defining exactly what battle it is you're fighting here - and what strategies work best for you. That's really great because I think all of us have to find that fine line where we can be balanced and happy with our food behaviors without slipping to one side or the other.

I hope you have a great weekend!