Phases of No-S (as I see them)
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Phases of No-S (as I see them)
I initially wrote my perception of "No-S" phases on another thread. I've been thinking about it further and would like to expand on it and offer it for more discussion. This is from my perception as a long-time No-Ser, who struggled with diets/weight control before coming here. (You can read my testimonial page for the full story, if you don't already know it.)
To over-simplify a bit...
Phase I: Establishing habit
Description/Goal: Getting the N-days down. S-days are often still over the top, but the focus is building N-day habits, and getting them SOLID.
Suggested strategies (IMHO!):
1. Do a 21-day challenge and try to go that long following the No-S rules exactly.
2. If it's too hard to do them all at once, phase them in individually until they're all in place.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat until habits are solid - with some reflection/assessment on what's changing for you. Don't even think about Phase II until your N-day habits are in place.
4. Use the resources on this bb and website (the "Strictness" podcast - #13 - is the one I recommend most frequently at this stage).
Issues:
1. Some people gain weight initially because of "diet deprivation rebound." Address by: Time - get 21 days of No-S behind you, and see if the initial over-eating has subsided. Re-evaluate
2. Some people can't let go of "diet mentality" and have trouble with hunger because they're simply not eating enough at meals. Address by: adding food until a balance is reached!
Results: More normal food habits. A better understanding of how much you need to eat at mealtimes. Psychological relief from over-attention on food.
Phase II: S-day worries
Description/Goal: Over-the-top S-days don't "feel" good. Mondays are almost a relief. People are perhaps frustrated with their lack of control on S-days. The contrast between N and S begins to stand out. Ideally, the "binges" unconsciously get a bit smaller because the person is starting to recognize that they DON'T GIVE PLEASURE... that happens naturally in some cases, but not in others. People may start to get pickier about what they consider "s-worthy" treats.
Issues: "S-days gone wild" may affect weight loss, leading to frustration. If they don't resolve themselves naturally (which they do for many, but not all), they may need attention.
Strategies: Review the "S-days Gone Wild" podcast and associated sticky threads, and select 1-2 strategies that will work for you WITHOUT tipping you back into "diet deprivation mindset." Slow and steady wins the race here - you want to make little changes that don't make you feel that you're on a "diet" (which will end at some point). Focusing on making S-days pleasant and satisfying seems to help the most - it just takes a while to figure out that those words do not mean "over-full" or "frantic."
Phase III: Got it!
Description/Goal: N-days are solid, and S-days have become more moderate overall, but WITHOUT a sense of deprivation. Sometimes that happens through a gradual shift during a long "Phase II", sometimes by some conscious maintenance of N-day habits on S-days. It's a pretty comfortable place to be.
Issues: Minor in terms of habit - an occasional excessive S-day. May be some frustration if the person is still focused primarily on weight loss and reaches a plateau. May choose to tweak "what's on the plate" in terms of health or continuing weight-loss goals.
Strategies: Keep on keeping on, but with awareness. What's working well for you, and what might need attention? Where are you "backsliding" a bit, and need to tighten up?
Notes and Observations:
The trick is to go slowly enough that Phase III does NOT feel like deprivation. This evolution happens over time, but it NEEDS time. Only repeated experience will reassure the non-cognitive part of your nature ("the lizard brain" - or, as one book called it, your "inner piggie") that there WILL be food again and you will NOT starve!
Also, during this transition there may be a bit of emotional fallout for those who have been accustomed to using food to stuff down emotions or avoid facing issues. As one of the quotes goes "if hunger is not the problem, food is not the answer!" The good news is that as we identify and deal with actual problems, emotionally-driven eating is less of an issue. (I found it easier to deal with the eating first, then the emotions, rather than trying to handle the emotions first.) Developing better life skills is a nice side benefit to No-S!
Phase IV: Maintenance and fine-tuning for individual needs
Description/Goal: The person has been doing No-S for a while, and really truly has it down. But... there are issues that need addressing.
Issues:
1) There's a place where No_s is just out-of-sync with the general lifestyle. You go out every Wednesday with your friends, and would rather have an S-day then.
2) You've done it all perfectly, but your weight loss has totally stalled out for months. You're starting to wonder "is basic No-S enough for me?" CAVEAT: If you haven't gone through Phases I-2, stop reading now! More damage is done by people jumping here too early than anything else!
Strategies:
For both issues, review the "Mods and Tweaks" podcast trilogy, and thoughtfully implement whatever mod you think would help you, WITH attention to "how it's working for you." The podcasts spell it out better than I ever could - just follow the ideas.
For the second, specifically (and again, don't read this if you're not at this phase)...You won't know until you've done No-S for a while if "just" No-S is enough for you. Everyone's metabolism is different, and those who are male/have-a-lot-to-lose/younger/larger/active/ will lose easier than those who are female/close-to-healthy-weight/older/smaller/less-active. Life is not fair. IF you fit the second category more than the first, what will probably happen is that eventually, you'll stall out or gain on No-S. (For example, if you were a very overweight female, you might lose at first, then stall out. If you fit ALL the "harder" categories, you may gain.)
Does that mean No-S has failed you? I don't think so, as someone who fits most of the "harder" categories. You've taken off the top layer of excess by cutting snacking/sweets/seconds (remember, that's ALL many lucky people need), and made those changes into habit. You've learned how powerful habit is. Those changes allow you to focus more clearly on "what else could make a difference" while keeping in mind that "I want to be able to live with this." Here is where I think calorie counting makes sense - use what you know of nutrition and activity to make TINY, PAINLESS changes in your current habits. Yes, you might have to go beyond No-S, but No-S has given you a foundation from which to work that will enable you to reach your goal with less difficulty and more chance of success than you would have otherwise had.
So that's my bird's-eye view of the process, as lived and observed. Last bit of advice (repeated): Don't push too fast. You can't jump to Phase III/IV right off, and shouldn't try. Start with the N-days, and move from there.
To over-simplify a bit...
Phase I: Establishing habit
Description/Goal: Getting the N-days down. S-days are often still over the top, but the focus is building N-day habits, and getting them SOLID.
Suggested strategies (IMHO!):
1. Do a 21-day challenge and try to go that long following the No-S rules exactly.
2. If it's too hard to do them all at once, phase them in individually until they're all in place.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat until habits are solid - with some reflection/assessment on what's changing for you. Don't even think about Phase II until your N-day habits are in place.
4. Use the resources on this bb and website (the "Strictness" podcast - #13 - is the one I recommend most frequently at this stage).
Issues:
1. Some people gain weight initially because of "diet deprivation rebound." Address by: Time - get 21 days of No-S behind you, and see if the initial over-eating has subsided. Re-evaluate
2. Some people can't let go of "diet mentality" and have trouble with hunger because they're simply not eating enough at meals. Address by: adding food until a balance is reached!
Results: More normal food habits. A better understanding of how much you need to eat at mealtimes. Psychological relief from over-attention on food.
Phase II: S-day worries
Description/Goal: Over-the-top S-days don't "feel" good. Mondays are almost a relief. People are perhaps frustrated with their lack of control on S-days. The contrast between N and S begins to stand out. Ideally, the "binges" unconsciously get a bit smaller because the person is starting to recognize that they DON'T GIVE PLEASURE... that happens naturally in some cases, but not in others. People may start to get pickier about what they consider "s-worthy" treats.
Issues: "S-days gone wild" may affect weight loss, leading to frustration. If they don't resolve themselves naturally (which they do for many, but not all), they may need attention.
Strategies: Review the "S-days Gone Wild" podcast and associated sticky threads, and select 1-2 strategies that will work for you WITHOUT tipping you back into "diet deprivation mindset." Slow and steady wins the race here - you want to make little changes that don't make you feel that you're on a "diet" (which will end at some point). Focusing on making S-days pleasant and satisfying seems to help the most - it just takes a while to figure out that those words do not mean "over-full" or "frantic."
Phase III: Got it!
Description/Goal: N-days are solid, and S-days have become more moderate overall, but WITHOUT a sense of deprivation. Sometimes that happens through a gradual shift during a long "Phase II", sometimes by some conscious maintenance of N-day habits on S-days. It's a pretty comfortable place to be.
Issues: Minor in terms of habit - an occasional excessive S-day. May be some frustration if the person is still focused primarily on weight loss and reaches a plateau. May choose to tweak "what's on the plate" in terms of health or continuing weight-loss goals.
Strategies: Keep on keeping on, but with awareness. What's working well for you, and what might need attention? Where are you "backsliding" a bit, and need to tighten up?
Notes and Observations:
The trick is to go slowly enough that Phase III does NOT feel like deprivation. This evolution happens over time, but it NEEDS time. Only repeated experience will reassure the non-cognitive part of your nature ("the lizard brain" - or, as one book called it, your "inner piggie") that there WILL be food again and you will NOT starve!
Also, during this transition there may be a bit of emotional fallout for those who have been accustomed to using food to stuff down emotions or avoid facing issues. As one of the quotes goes "if hunger is not the problem, food is not the answer!" The good news is that as we identify and deal with actual problems, emotionally-driven eating is less of an issue. (I found it easier to deal with the eating first, then the emotions, rather than trying to handle the emotions first.) Developing better life skills is a nice side benefit to No-S!
Phase IV: Maintenance and fine-tuning for individual needs
Description/Goal: The person has been doing No-S for a while, and really truly has it down. But... there are issues that need addressing.
Issues:
1) There's a place where No_s is just out-of-sync with the general lifestyle. You go out every Wednesday with your friends, and would rather have an S-day then.
2) You've done it all perfectly, but your weight loss has totally stalled out for months. You're starting to wonder "is basic No-S enough for me?" CAVEAT: If you haven't gone through Phases I-2, stop reading now! More damage is done by people jumping here too early than anything else!
Strategies:
For both issues, review the "Mods and Tweaks" podcast trilogy, and thoughtfully implement whatever mod you think would help you, WITH attention to "how it's working for you." The podcasts spell it out better than I ever could - just follow the ideas.
For the second, specifically (and again, don't read this if you're not at this phase)...You won't know until you've done No-S for a while if "just" No-S is enough for you. Everyone's metabolism is different, and those who are male/have-a-lot-to-lose/younger/larger/active/ will lose easier than those who are female/close-to-healthy-weight/older/smaller/less-active. Life is not fair. IF you fit the second category more than the first, what will probably happen is that eventually, you'll stall out or gain on No-S. (For example, if you were a very overweight female, you might lose at first, then stall out. If you fit ALL the "harder" categories, you may gain.)
Does that mean No-S has failed you? I don't think so, as someone who fits most of the "harder" categories. You've taken off the top layer of excess by cutting snacking/sweets/seconds (remember, that's ALL many lucky people need), and made those changes into habit. You've learned how powerful habit is. Those changes allow you to focus more clearly on "what else could make a difference" while keeping in mind that "I want to be able to live with this." Here is where I think calorie counting makes sense - use what you know of nutrition and activity to make TINY, PAINLESS changes in your current habits. Yes, you might have to go beyond No-S, but No-S has given you a foundation from which to work that will enable you to reach your goal with less difficulty and more chance of success than you would have otherwise had.
So that's my bird's-eye view of the process, as lived and observed. Last bit of advice (repeated): Don't push too fast. You can't jump to Phase III/IV right off, and shouldn't try. Start with the N-days, and move from there.
Last edited by kccc on Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brilliant! I think if someone could read only one post on this board, this should be the post.
I believe I'm in Phase III right now, although if my plateau continues I may be pushed into Phase IV. I totally agree with your descriptions of the process, and appreciate your analyis of possible problems and solutions.
I believe I'm in Phase III right now, although if my plateau continues I may be pushed into Phase IV. I totally agree with your descriptions of the process, and appreciate your analyis of possible problems and solutions.
I REALLY appreciate your perspective. It seems like the boat I am in (frustrated at not losing and thinking about dieting again, or giving up all together is premature). Deep down, I love this program because takes the obsession out of it and after 2 months I don't feel so focused on food.
I am really going to work on getting Phase 1 and 2 under my belt before doing anything else. I really feel good about the exercise phase though as I am working out now almost 5 days a week. So thats good. I do get caught up in the numbers and start to get down on myself. I have to tell myself 5 million times a day (maybe more) that I am loved by my family and friends and should love myself. This is the hardest part for me. I only have about 20 pounds to lose but it feels like 100.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post that. It was the lifeline I needed this morning.
I am really going to work on getting Phase 1 and 2 under my belt before doing anything else. I really feel good about the exercise phase though as I am working out now almost 5 days a week. So thats good. I do get caught up in the numbers and start to get down on myself. I have to tell myself 5 million times a day (maybe more) that I am loved by my family and friends and should love myself. This is the hardest part for me. I only have about 20 pounds to lose but it feels like 100.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post that. It was the lifeline I needed this morning.
Karen
Start/Current/Goal
160/ 160 /135
Start/Current/Goal
160/ 160 /135
- sophiasapientia
- Posts: 919
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:09 am
- Location: Michigan
Excellent post!!! Sticky worthy, IMO.
ITA that there is a natural progression to No S that can't be rushed. I reckon I'm somewhere between Phase 3 and 4 now but definitely spent a good amount of time in Phase 1 and 2 -- and falling off the wagon -- first.
ITA that there is a natural progression to No S that can't be rushed. I reckon I'm somewhere between Phase 3 and 4 now but definitely spent a good amount of time in Phase 1 and 2 -- and falling off the wagon -- first.
Restarted No S (3rd times a charm!) January 2010 at 145 lbs
Re: Phases of No-S (as I see them)
Reinhard should give you some sort of commission for this. Very well said, and even as a newer No S'er, I can see how much wisdom there is in what you've written.
This bit really resonates for me:
Although I'm not at phase IV yet (so I could be accused of jumping the gun), the thought had occurred to me in the past week that I'm just not likely to be one of the "lucky ones." Pretty much everything you've listed above there applies to me, except the "smaller" part, I think.
I've been giving a lot of thought to what it takes for me to change a deeply ingrained habit, and it occurred to me that success is largely dependent on both ease and results. I hate the idea of counting calories, and I think increasing my levels of activity is where I need to be looking. So, in my case, I've got to find a way to build more movement into my days by doing things that are (a) easy for me to incorporate and (b) either give me the shape-changing results I desire, or that replace those results with some other motivating feature. For example, I was thinking about simply building more walking into my days. That doesn't come naturally for me. However, if I use walking time to listen to an engaging book on my iPod, then the reward becomes the pleasure of listening to the book, and that takes the focus off of the body-image component. I need to realize some positive results if I'm going to stick with the program, even the first couple of phases. So, if diligence isn't going to show up on the scale, or with the measuring tape, or with increased energy, or something...then I've got to find some other hook on which to hang my hat. Change the expectation, and find results in something more immediately attainable.
Thanks for posting this.
This bit really resonates for me:
KCCC wrote:those who are female/close-to-healthy-weight/older/smaller/less-active. Life is not fair. IF you fit the second category more than the first, what will probably happen is that eventually, you'll stall out or gain on No-S.
Although I'm not at phase IV yet (so I could be accused of jumping the gun), the thought had occurred to me in the past week that I'm just not likely to be one of the "lucky ones." Pretty much everything you've listed above there applies to me, except the "smaller" part, I think.
I've been giving a lot of thought to what it takes for me to change a deeply ingrained habit, and it occurred to me that success is largely dependent on both ease and results. I hate the idea of counting calories, and I think increasing my levels of activity is where I need to be looking. So, in my case, I've got to find a way to build more movement into my days by doing things that are (a) easy for me to incorporate and (b) either give me the shape-changing results I desire, or that replace those results with some other motivating feature. For example, I was thinking about simply building more walking into my days. That doesn't come naturally for me. However, if I use walking time to listen to an engaging book on my iPod, then the reward becomes the pleasure of listening to the book, and that takes the focus off of the body-image component. I need to realize some positive results if I'm going to stick with the program, even the first couple of phases. So, if diligence isn't going to show up on the scale, or with the measuring tape, or with increased energy, or something...then I've got to find some other hook on which to hang my hat. Change the expectation, and find results in something more immediately attainable.
Thanks for posting this.
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Re: Phases of No-S (as I see them)
This is precisely the disconnect I had with intuitive eating. Emotions are so out of control that you can wallow in them forever and never even get to the eating part.KCCC wrote:(I found it easier to deal with the eating first, then the emotions, rather than trying to handle the emotions first.)
I like how you spelled out the stages for us. It takes a lot of the uncertainty and worry out of what is coming next, for those of us who are just beginning. It's neat to know just what to do when it gets tough, and that those stages will pass. Thanks for taking the time to do that.
I agree - sticky this thread!
Thanks, everyone.
While this description is over-simplified, I do think it applies to about 82.4% of the time. (Using DaveMc's imaginary statistic as an internet citation - there's a lesson in that, I'm sure! At any rate, I'm quite entertained by it.)
Almost every phase that I've identified could be annotated further, but then the post would be too long. So, I'll leave it as is... despite noticing all the places where further editing would help. (As I always do in writing-made-public).
Glad if it helps anyone. And feel free to comment as well... anything that is a simplified description will have "but in THIS particular circumstance" exceptions. So, 17.6%* of the No-S forum members probably have a different story.
[* = another imaginary statistic, quite improperly extrapolated from prior one]
I think the core message is that it's an evolutionary process, and people are at different points in it. That, I strongly believe.
While this description is over-simplified, I do think it applies to about 82.4% of the time. (Using DaveMc's imaginary statistic as an internet citation - there's a lesson in that, I'm sure! At any rate, I'm quite entertained by it.)
Almost every phase that I've identified could be annotated further, but then the post would be too long. So, I'll leave it as is... despite noticing all the places where further editing would help. (As I always do in writing-made-public).
Glad if it helps anyone. And feel free to comment as well... anything that is a simplified description will have "but in THIS particular circumstance" exceptions. So, 17.6%* of the No-S forum members probably have a different story.
[* = another imaginary statistic, quite improperly extrapolated from prior one]
I think the core message is that it's an evolutionary process, and people are at different points in it. That, I strongly believe.
KCCC, thank you again for another deeply thoughtful and helpful post. I've been hesitant to talk about "phases" because I like to emphasize the continuity of what one does on No-s (practicing maintenance from day 1), but what you've written is profoundly true and worth knowing, especially for beginners. Because it's not so much the behaviors that change with each phase (they do stay largely the same, plus or minus a minor tweak or two perhaps) but one's attitude towards those behaviors. And that attitude is very, very important. Most of the no-s related podcasts I've done have been about precisely this issue of attitude -- but they've been kind of ad hoc, I've never formalized the phases as you've done here.
Reinhard
I'll give you 10% of my profits, so about -2 dollars a month.Reinhard should give you some sort of commission for this.
That I can gladly do!I'd second the idea that this should be a "sticky"
Reinhard
Lovely! Can you put it against what I owe you for coming up with this system and sharing it? I know I'll never be able to pay it back in full, but it's nice to make an attempt...reinhard wrote:I'll give you 10% of my profits, so about -2 dollars a month.Reinhard should give you some sort of commission for this.
Reinhard
Wait... is that NEGATIVE $2? Nevermind.
Let's talk timing -- in very approximate terms, because I think trying to pin these down to a specific schedule would be a very bad idea! At the same time, newcomers may wonder about how long we're talking about, here.
Very roughly, I'd say that each of these phases takes (at least) several months. You probably shouldn't expect to be approaching phase IV until you're about a year in to doing NoS. Your experience may vary, but if you think you're at phase IV after your second week, chances are you're rushing things.
Very roughly, I'd say that each of these phases takes (at least) several months. You probably shouldn't expect to be approaching phase IV until you're about a year in to doing NoS. Your experience may vary, but if you think you're at phase IV after your second week, chances are you're rushing things.
I totally agree with your observations! I have twice been solidly past the first phase and getting close to the third when Christmas season came and blew me out of the water. I am back to the first phase again and stuck. I really thank you for shining a light on the steps that I have been following. It encourages me tremendously! I think I'll paste it to my check-in so I won't loose it. Thanks again!
I guess this doesn't work unless you actually do it.
Please pray for me
Please pray for me
- butterfly1000
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I've been trying to get it all perfect (unsuccessfully) and getting discouraged in the process. This is a great breakdown of the different phases. As recommended, I'm going to take one phase at a time and work on it before going to the next.
Question: How do you count the 21 day challenge, is it 21 days in a row that you treat as No-S, or do you still incorporate the S days in between?
Question: How do you count the 21 day challenge, is it 21 days in a row that you treat as No-S, or do you still incorporate the S days in between?
I believe the usual practice is to count 21 calendar days in a row, including both both N and S days. It's based on the vague and unproven notion that it takes three weeks to establish a habit -- everyone acknowledges that it's more complicated than that, but it's a bit of conventional wisdom that makes a handy goal to aim for. Since S days are part of the habit, you should count them as part of the three weeks.butterfly1000 wrote:Question: How do you count the 21 day challenge, is it 21 days in a row that you treat as No-S, or do you still incorporate the S days in between?
KCCC, I was so happy to see this post as a sticky so I can go right to it! As you may have noticed,I have been offtrack for awhile. I seemed to have been OK while away for the winter but went crazy when I came home..go figure! Two months of ignoring what I knew I needed to do!! I got back to this site..saw your sticky and cheered! I always thought your entries spoke to me..and this one did too! I'm back.. I'm going to give Reneew's challenge a try... no.. I'm going to DO Reneew's challenge and I am going to see a lot of green on my calendar! I know this plan is the way I need to approach food and exercise and I will be reading your entries for inspiration! Keep up the great work
"If you realized how powerful your thoughts are, you would never think another negative thought."
Peace Pilgrim
Peace Pilgrim
KCCC, just wanted to say thanks thanks thanks for a wonderful, helpful post. I read it yesterday & it really resonated with me...and then I read it to my partner who is helping me along on my NoS path. He found it excellent too. I think it's now clear to me that I'm still firmly in phase 1 (even though I'm more than a year into NoS) & I need to put at least 3 or 4 successful 21-days-with-no-reds under my belt before I move on to phase 2. Thanks again ever so much for posting this, makes it all very clear.
Restarting NoS (after going back & forth over the last 4 years) in November 2013.
GOAL: to lose 10 kilos.
HAVE ACHIEVED SO FAR: 1.6 kilo
GOAL: to lose 10 kilos.
HAVE ACHIEVED SO FAR: 1.6 kilo
Okay, I wasn't going to edit, but I really wanted to add in #4 under phase I, and clean up a bit of redundancy where I meant to move a sentence and copied it. Finally broke down and did those two things.
Also, I want to add that this is oversimplified in that the phases are not necessarily linear. I have some habits that are rock-solid, and others that I keep having to revisit and "re-boot."
Changes in circumstances may take you into a totally different phase. The key is recognizing where you are, and doing what you need to do... without trying to jump ahead so fast that you de-rail.
Also, I want to add that this is oversimplified in that the phases are not necessarily linear. I have some habits that are rock-solid, and others that I keep having to revisit and "re-boot."
Changes in circumstances may take you into a totally different phase. The key is recognizing where you are, and doing what you need to do... without trying to jump ahead so fast that you de-rail.
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[quote="Cassie"]I think it's now clear to me that I'm still firmly in phase 1 (even though I'm more than a year into NoS) & I need to put at least 3 or 4 successful 21-days-with-no-reds under my belt before I move on to phase 2. Thanks again ever so much for posting this, makes it all very clear.[/quote]
I saw that your signature said that you had lost 1 pound. Is that in the past year? If it's taken you a year to lose a pound, I was thinking that the phrase under Phase III may apply: if you are small, female, and not too overweight, is it possible that your troubles with sticking to plain No S are due to (understandable, I would say) frustration at not seeing results?
If we are thinking about "how grandma ate", she generally ate a bit less than grandpa and sometimes stayed away from the foods regarded in the 1950s as traditionally fattening, like pasta, bread, rice, potatoes, etc. It is possible that even single servings can add up.
I've found that I can maintain weight on No S, but to lose weight I need to "eat clean": reasonable serving of protein, fat, veggies/fruit at each meal; starch in the morning and the meal after a workout; and fruit not too much more often than twice a day. It's not many rules, and it's still how grandma ate, and it does cut out I would guess about 300 calories a day that would be there if I ate starch at more meals.
I saw that your signature said that you had lost 1 pound. Is that in the past year? If it's taken you a year to lose a pound, I was thinking that the phrase under Phase III may apply: if you are small, female, and not too overweight, is it possible that your troubles with sticking to plain No S are due to (understandable, I would say) frustration at not seeing results?
If we are thinking about "how grandma ate", she generally ate a bit less than grandpa and sometimes stayed away from the foods regarded in the 1950s as traditionally fattening, like pasta, bread, rice, potatoes, etc. It is possible that even single servings can add up.
I've found that I can maintain weight on No S, but to lose weight I need to "eat clean": reasonable serving of protein, fat, veggies/fruit at each meal; starch in the morning and the meal after a workout; and fruit not too much more often than twice a day. It's not many rules, and it's still how grandma ate, and it does cut out I would guess about 300 calories a day that would be there if I ate starch at more meals.
Hi Cantab
No, I haven't lost 1 pound in one year. I actually had quite the rollercoaster year! Did NoS for 2-3 months, got frustrated at very slow weight loss, went on an Atkins-type diet, lost about 8 kilos, which I promptly put back on (well almost all of it) once i re-introduced carbs in my diet. So I got a good reminder about the futility of diets and the awfulness of yo-yo dieting once again. I'm now back on NoS successfully (for the last couple of months) & have sworn my Atkins style diet is the last diet of the kind I ever go on. NoS it is for me from now on, indefinitely, and it actually feels like a great prospect .
No, I haven't lost 1 pound in one year. I actually had quite the rollercoaster year! Did NoS for 2-3 months, got frustrated at very slow weight loss, went on an Atkins-type diet, lost about 8 kilos, which I promptly put back on (well almost all of it) once i re-introduced carbs in my diet. So I got a good reminder about the futility of diets and the awfulness of yo-yo dieting once again. I'm now back on NoS successfully (for the last couple of months) & have sworn my Atkins style diet is the last diet of the kind I ever go on. NoS it is for me from now on, indefinitely, and it actually feels like a great prospect .
Restarting NoS (after going back & forth over the last 4 years) in November 2013.
GOAL: to lose 10 kilos.
HAVE ACHIEVED SO FAR: 1.6 kilo
GOAL: to lose 10 kilos.
HAVE ACHIEVED SO FAR: 1.6 kilo
KCCC - Thank you so much for taking the time to put this together.
Reading this, I think I have just figured out where I consistently go wrong (After 5 years, I can honestly say "Yes, I am a slow learner!") - each time I stick to Phase 1 very successfully and start lookinginto Phase 2 I get over enthusiastic and jump to Phase 4 to 'speed' things up. This always proves fatal and the rot sets in, followed by a pity party and a who is going to stop me snacking kind of attitude!
Reading this, I think I have just figured out where I consistently go wrong (After 5 years, I can honestly say "Yes, I am a slow learner!") - each time I stick to Phase 1 very successfully and start lookinginto Phase 2 I get over enthusiastic and jump to Phase 4 to 'speed' things up. This always proves fatal and the rot sets in, followed by a pity party and a who is going to stop me snacking kind of attitude!
Hugs from Sunny South Africa
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)
Vanilla No S with no Sugar due to Health issues - 11 yrs No S - September 2016 (some good, some bad (my own doing) but always the right thing for me!)
You're very right, Dave. My experience is that my timing with No S phases are going to be very paced, and patience is the key here. Newcomers (like myself) need to realize that this isn't some standard 'diet.' That's why I chose this: it seems to be a lifestyle. Other diets just last for a couple of weeks, if that. This sticks!DaveMc wrote:Let's talk timing -- in very approximate terms, because I think trying to pin these down to a specific schedule would be a very bad idea! At the same time, newcomers may wonder about how long we're talking about, here.
Very roughly, I'd say that each of these phases takes (at least) several months. You probably shouldn't expect to be approaching phase IV until you're about a year in to doing NoS. Your experience may vary, but if you think you're at phase IV after your second week, chances are you're rushing things.
Great post
I think I read this post early on, and it did not mean much. Now that I am nearing the end of month 3, I read it again. Wow! You have hit the nail on the head. These phases are very true to what I have been going through. I am still tweaking and still finding ways to improve but hope to get to that maintenance point some day.
The journey is the reward.
Maintenance is progress.
Maintenance is progress.
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- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:10 pm
Re: Phases of No-S (as I see them)
Thank you, thank you, from a recovering low carber, I feel psychologically better already! ...Used2bSkinnyKCCC wrote:I initially wrote my perception of "No-S" phases on another thread. I've been thinking about it further and would like to expand on it and offer it for more discussion. This is from my perception as a long-time No-Ser, who struggled with diets/weight control before coming here. (You can read my testimonial page for the full story, if you don't already know it.)
To over-simplify a bit...
Phase I: Establishing habit
Description/Goal: Getting the N-days down. S-days are often still over the top, but the focus is building N-day habits, and getting them SOLID.
Suggested strategies (IMHO!):
1. Do a 21-day challenge and try to go that long following the No-S rules exactly.
2. If it's too hard to do them all at once, phase them in individually until they're all in place.
3. Lather, rinse, repeat until habits are solid - with some reflection/assessment on what's changing for you. Don't even think about Phase II until your N-day habits are in place.
4. Use the resources on this bb and website (the "Strictness" podcast - #13 - is the one I recommend most frequently at this stage).
Issues:
1. Some people gain weight initially because of "diet deprivation rebound." Address by: Time - get 21 days of No-S behind you, and see if the initial over-eating has subsided. Re-evaluate
2. Some people can't let go of "diet mentality" and have trouble with hunger because they're simply not eating enough at meals. Address by: adding food until a balance is reached!
Results: More normal food habits. A better understanding of how much you need to eat at mealtimes. Psychological relief from over-attention on food.
Phase II: S-day worries
Description/Goal: Over-the-top S-days don't "feel" good. Mondays are almost a relief. People are perhaps frustrated with their lack of control on S-days. The contrast between N and S begins to stand out. Ideally, the "binges" unconsciously get a bit smaller because the person is starting to recognize that they DON'T GIVE PLEASURE... that happens naturally in some cases, but not in others. People may start to get pickier about what they consider "s-worthy" treats.
Issues: "S-days gone wild" may affect weight loss, leading to frustration. If they don't resolve themselves naturally (which they do for many, but not all), they may need attention.
Strategies: Review the "S-days Gone Wild" podcast and associated sticky threads, and select 1-2 strategies that will work for you WITHOUT tipping you back into "diet deprivation mindset." Slow and steady wins the race here - you want to make little changes that don't make you feel that you're on a "diet" (which will end at some point). Focusing on making S-days pleasant and satisfying seems to help the most - it just takes a while to figure out that those words do not mean "over-full" or "frantic."
Phase III: Got it!
Description/Goal: N-days are solid, and S-days have become more moderate overall, but WITHOUT a sense of deprivation. Sometimes that happens through a gradual shift during a long "Phase II", sometimes by some conscious maintenance of N-day habits on S-days. It's a pretty comfortable place to be.
Issues: Minor in terms of habit - an occasional excessive S-day. May be some frustration if the person is still focused primarily on weight loss and reaches a plateau. May choose to tweak "what's on the plate" in terms of health or continuing weight-loss goals.
Strategies: Keep on keeping on, but with awareness. What's working well for you, and what might need attention? Where are you "backsliding" a bit, and need to tighten up?
Notes and Observations:
The trick is to go slowly enough that Phase III does NOT feel like deprivation. This evolution happens over time, but it NEEDS time. Only repeated experience will reassure the non-cognitive part of your nature ("the lizard brain" - or, as one book called it, your "inner piggie") that there WILL be food again and you will NOT starve!
Also, during this transition there may be a bit of emotional fallout for those who have been accustomed to using food to stuff down emotions or avoid facing issues. As one of the quotes goes "if hunger is not the problem, food is not the answer!" The good news is that as we identify and deal with actual problems, emotionally-driven eating is less of an issue. (I found it easier to deal with the eating first, then the emotions, rather than trying to handle the emotions first.) Developing better life skills is a nice side benefit to No-S!
Phase IV: Maintenance and fine-tuning for individual needs
Description/Goal: The person has been doing No-S for a while, and really truly has it down. But... there are issues that need addressing.
Issues:
1) There's a place where No_s is just out-of-sync with the general lifestyle. You go out every Wednesday with your friends, and would rather have an S-day then.
2) You've done it all perfectly, but your weight loss has totally stalled out for months. You're starting to wonder "is basic No-S enough for me?" CAVEAT: If you haven't gone through Phases I-2, stop reading now! More damage is done by people jumping here too early than anything else!
Strategies:
For both issues, review the "Mods and Tweaks" podcast trilogy, and thoughtfully implement whatever mod you think would help you, WITH attention to "how it's working for you." The podcasts spell it out better than I ever could - just follow the ideas.
For the second, specifically (and again, don't read this if you're not at this phase)...You won't know until you've done No-S for a while if "just" No-S is enough for you. Everyone's metabolism is different, and those who are male/have-a-lot-to-lose/younger/larger/active/ will lose easier than those who are female/close-to-healthy-weight/older/smaller/less-active. Life is not fair. IF you fit the second category more than the first, what will probably happen is that eventually, you'll stall out or gain on No-S. (For example, if you were a very overweight female, you might lose at first, then stall out. If you fit ALL the "harder" categories, you may gain.)
Does that mean No-S has failed you? I don't think so, as someone who fits most of the "harder" categories. You've taken off the top layer of excess by cutting snacking/sweets/seconds (remember, that's ALL many lucky people need), and made those changes into habit. You've learned how powerful habit is. Those changes allow you to focus more clearly on "what else could make a difference" while keeping in mind that "I want to be able to live with this." Here is where I think calorie counting makes sense - use what you know of nutrition and activity to make TINY, PAINLESS changes in your current habits. Yes, you might have to go beyond No-S, but No-S has given you a foundation from which to work that will enable you to reach your goal with less difficulty and more chance of success than you would have otherwise had.
So that's my bird's-eye view of the process, as lived and observed. Last bit of advice (repeated): Don't push too fast. You can't jump to Phase III/IV right off, and shouldn't try. Start with the N-days, and move from there.
Thank you!
This post was so beneficial to read! I am a newbie but I am so enjoying the freedom and space in my brain even the first days have brought me. I want to come back to this post again and again to remind myself that this is a "process"....when the going gets tough, as I expect it to sooner or later
Thanks KCCC!
Thanks KCCC!
"There are so many things in life we cannot do because of the fear of what Mrs. Harmon Andrews would say. ` 'Tis true, 'tis pity, and pity 'tis, 'tis true.' What delightful things we might do were it not for Mrs. Harmon Andrews!"
208.8/205.8/128?
208.8/205.8/128?
- BrightAngel
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- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:22 pm
- Location: Central California
- Contact:
Chiming in here to add my compliments to this post.
It is really GREAT and I think every No S person should read it.
Also, I just finished reading the No S book AGAIN (about the 12th time)
I still think that it is one of the best diet books I've every read,
and I've read hundreds of them as part of my dieting hobby.
It just doesn't get better than Reinhard's Habit Building concepts.
KCCC and I have had differences about the value and ease of calorie counting,
in that FOR ME, combining my food-logging-calorie-counting
together with working toward building No S Habits is beneficial.
HOWEVER, bear in mind that
I've never used No S WITHOUT calorie counting,
because I found No S in my weight-loss maintenance phase,
and at that time, I already had a solid and enjoyable habit
of successful calorie counting with my computer software journal.
My difficulty is successfully eating within my personal calorie limits .... forever.
Studies show that ... overall ... 95% of people who diet and lose weight, regain it all.
I am one of the successful 5%. I'm now starting the 8th year of maintaining a very large weight-loss.
An individualized variation of the No S Plan can be very valuable
for new people who need help with maintenance,
as No S can easily be combined with many ongoing weight-loss diet methods.
It is really GREAT and I think every No S person should read it.
Also, I just finished reading the No S book AGAIN (about the 12th time)
I still think that it is one of the best diet books I've every read,
and I've read hundreds of them as part of my dieting hobby.
It just doesn't get better than Reinhard's Habit Building concepts.
KCCC and I have had differences about the value and ease of calorie counting,
in that FOR ME, combining my food-logging-calorie-counting
together with working toward building No S Habits is beneficial.
HOWEVER, bear in mind that
I've never used No S WITHOUT calorie counting,
because I found No S in my weight-loss maintenance phase,
and at that time, I already had a solid and enjoyable habit
of successful calorie counting with my computer software journal.
My difficulty is successfully eating within my personal calorie limits .... forever.
Studies show that ... overall ... 95% of people who diet and lose weight, regain it all.
I am one of the successful 5%. I'm now starting the 8th year of maintaining a very large weight-loss.
An individualized variation of the No S Plan can be very valuable
for new people who need help with maintenance,
as No S can easily be combined with many ongoing weight-loss diet methods.
BrightAngel - (Dr. Collins)
See: DietHobby. com
See: DietHobby. com
Good to start off with
Thanks for this brilliant observation. I've thought about No S for a long time and have finally decided to take the plunge. So this was the perfect time for me to read this. I used Medifast to get the weight off in the first place, but was shocked to actually see how often I've ordered it in the past five years, just to try to maintain the loss, when I happened to look at my order history. I've got to learn the hard way, at long last. But I think No S might be my perfect answer to finally get over the madness. Thanks so much for the post.
I'm a Mac
Welcome, Christine!
I overheard a staff member at school today. She had weight loss surgery several years ago. She got slim very fast and has remained so. But I heard her telling someone else that she is still a big person on the inside. I didn't hear the details, but I guess she meant she still fears overeating.
Just about everyone has to figure out a way to negotiate this food-rich, food-pushing culture. Hope you've found your tribe!
I overheard a staff member at school today. She had weight loss surgery several years ago. She got slim very fast and has remained so. But I heard her telling someone else that she is still a big person on the inside. I didn't hear the details, but I guess she meant she still fears overeating.
Just about everyone has to figure out a way to negotiate this food-rich, food-pushing culture. Hope you've found your tribe!
Last edited by oolala53 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Thank you very much! You and I seem to be about the same size & age. I too am 5'6" and am 62 years old (OMG, can't believe I'm saying that!!! Where DO the years go?). And it looks like you have been very successful over the past few years. Well, wish me luck! I'm in this for the rest of the month and see what happens from there.
I'm a Mac
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- Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:01 am
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- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:41 pm
It does vary a lot. Given how many people I've seen leave because they got frustrated and come back a few years later because they realize they didn't stick with it long enough, I'd say give it at least a year. Two months for most people is just getting going. I had a big bump my first year and a long, low one my second year, but I'm really glad I've stayed with it. I didn't lose all at once. In fact, I'm still losing.
Keep this in perspective. What are your alternatives? Most people never do actually learn to eat less on diets, and it takes the ones who do 2-5 years to bring their failure rate down to 27%. So accept that this is a long term strategy that goes beyond the time it takes to actually lose the weight. Include the time for mistakes, recommitment, and really learning what combination and amounts of foods will truly satisfy your needs for nutrition and overall pleasure. That is the bottom line.
Keep this in perspective. What are your alternatives? Most people never do actually learn to eat less on diets, and it takes the ones who do 2-5 years to bring their failure rate down to 27%. So accept that this is a long term strategy that goes beyond the time it takes to actually lose the weight. Include the time for mistakes, recommitment, and really learning what combination and amounts of foods will truly satisfy your needs for nutrition and overall pleasure. That is the bottom line.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
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- Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:46 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
How is Vanilla No S a rare thing? I think it's pretty common around here.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
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- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:41 pm
Actually, you could be doing Vanilla No-S through all the phases. The differences are mostly psychological, highlighting where you're likely to trip yourself up and suggesting strategies.chentegt wrote:After almost 3 years of NOSing right I finally got this thing about the 'phases'.
However, it's kind of ironic that, at the end of the day, "vanilla NOS" is becoming a rare thing these days... There should not really be "phases", or it just becomes another diet.
They're also not linear. I'm back to phase 1 after YEARS of No-S , fairly successfully, because I thought I had it down and got sloppy. So... it's back to building basic habit.
The phases just happen. They are not set. The habits are about the same but the reasoning and effort change over time and according to circumstances. That's inevitable. Almost no one immediately takes to any change in eating and has no trouble. It really takes about 2-5 years to settle into a routine that is pleasing all around, unless the motivation is very high and firm. And that isn't average.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
6 day old Newbie...
So - I have encountered some fun challenges so far, I'm not quite a newbie...and consider myself almost PRE-Phase 1 (the 'stumbling over my own two left feet' phase while I'm figuring this all out) but your post helps me understand what to expect.
I've decided to keep a little log of blockers... just out of curiosity. I want to see what floats to the surface today - and in a year or so read back through them. (Mostly to giggle at myself, but in reality to recognize that these things can be overcome.)
I've decided to keep a little log of blockers... just out of curiosity. I want to see what floats to the surface today - and in a year or so read back through them. (Mostly to giggle at myself, but in reality to recognize that these things can be overcome.)
"...skid into heaven broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” " Thank you Hunter!
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- Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:16 pm
I just reread this post and realized I am finally in Phase III. After 4.5 years.
And during that time I have moved between Phases I and II. It's been clear to me that I was never in Phase III because I always felt consciously resentful of needing to consider what was on the plate.
And somehow, amazingly, I'm ready to consider what's on the plate. Something has shifted in me. But it took years. But maybe that's not so unnatural. After all, I had spent decades developing that resentment. In that light, 4 years isn't too long to wait for my attitude to change.
And I know this about me: if I had forced it sooner, rebellion would have ensued.
I am a few pounds overweight still, but considering everything, I feel like I'm in a good spot NoS-wise/food-wise.
Oh, and one final thing -- I am only just STARTING Phase III, so I'll need careful focus on habit this year as I try on new ways of choosing foods.
And during that time I have moved between Phases I and II. It's been clear to me that I was never in Phase III because I always felt consciously resentful of needing to consider what was on the plate.
And somehow, amazingly, I'm ready to consider what's on the plate. Something has shifted in me. But it took years. But maybe that's not so unnatural. After all, I had spent decades developing that resentment. In that light, 4 years isn't too long to wait for my attitude to change.
And I know this about me: if I had forced it sooner, rebellion would have ensued.
I am a few pounds overweight still, but considering everything, I feel like I'm in a good spot NoS-wise/food-wise.
Oh, and one final thing -- I am only just STARTING Phase III, so I'll need careful focus on habit this year as I try on new ways of choosing foods.
Month/Year-BMI
8/13-26.3
8/14-24.5
5/15-26.2
1/16-26.9; 9/16-25.6
8/17-25.8; 11/17-26.9
3/18-25.6; 8/18-24.5; 10/18-23.8;
3/19-22.1; 10/19-21.8
6/20-22.5; 7/20-23.0; 9/20-23.6
4/21 - 25.2
8/13-26.3
8/14-24.5
5/15-26.2
1/16-26.9; 9/16-25.6
8/17-25.8; 11/17-26.9
3/18-25.6; 8/18-24.5; 10/18-23.8;
3/19-22.1; 10/19-21.8
6/20-22.5; 7/20-23.0; 9/20-23.6
4/21 - 25.2
Ha! I looked at what I said here in 2013. Even though I talked about automaticity, I'm not sure everything I've been through/done feels automatic.I sometimes can't believe I'm still toying with the plate, but I have never regretted my efforts. What were my options? So if it took 4.5 years, I get it. Only a very small number of people even get to the point you're at. I don't mean to demean them, but you are moving at warp speed compared to the masses caught by the culture of excess.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)