Kathleen and BrightAngel's Discussion on Why We Get Fat

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,

It's always very interesting to get your perspective. Of course, I had to laugh about the fact that restriction is necessary for weight loss. The Intuitive Eating approach most certainly did not work for me!!!

For me, the jury is still out on whether eating after an intermittent fast returns hunger levels to pre-fast levels. I'm not sure if it does because my intermittent attempts at intermittent fasting have given me too little evidence. It does seem to do so, at least right after fasting.

I think I'll try to go through just part of the next chapter since it's so darn long. I'm supposed to talk with a recruiter on the phone in ten minutes. It's incredible, but I'm busier home than I am when working!

Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

I think I'll try to go through just part of the next chapter
since it's so darn long.

Chapters 18 and 19 are long,
but I think they are the best ones
because that's where Taubes ties things together.

The first 17 chapters, that we've discussed so far, lead up to Chapter 18,
and all of the first 18 Chapters are the basic foundation for Chapter 19.

I've already posted my Summaries and comments,
so you can read part of the chapter and part of my summary
and then comment,
or you can give yourself a little more time to read and think,
and then comment on all of Chapter 18 at one time.
Whatever you choose to do is fine with me.

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,
I see that these chapters are critical. Tomorrow is my interview, Friday and Monday kids are off school, and I think I should wait until Tuesday to comment. Katie and Ellie are just now getting off the bus.... It never ends!
Kathleen

[BrightAngel]

BrightAngel,
I see that these chapters are critical.
I think I should wait until Tuesday to comment.

Thanks Kathleen,
I'll look forward to seeing your Chapter 18 comments next week.

NOTE:
In the meantime, if others wish to comment, please feel free to do so.

[Kathleen]

Chapter 18 – Nature of a Healthy Diet


My gut feeling is that neither
the “conventional wisdom of calories-in/calories-out “
OR
the low-carb/insulin theories stated by Taubes
are totally correct when taken by themselves.
I just feel like somehow, something is missing….
Like there’s a missing link between the two Theories
that should tie them together somehow.

All experts agree that there is much about the body
that has not yet been discovered,
and while the conclusions Taubes draws appear reasonable,
At this point,
without any evidence whatsoever, to support my opinion,
I believe that there is, somehow, more to it.

Well, I went ahead and finished the chapter and went back and read your notes on it.

It was actually Valentine's Day dinner last year that I had something with bacon fat in it and thought that it was so incredibly satisfying that I started to wonder if part of the problem with my diet wasn't the absence of saturated fat. I switched to 2% and make some meals, like tonight's, with bacon fat.

My parents are both chemists, my oldest daughter wants to be a research scientist, my son wants to be a pediatrician, and my eyes glaze over when I read through anything scientific. There was a lot in this chapter that just flowed right over me. Here are key points that I saw:

1. The Atkins diet resulted in an average weight loss of 9.9 pounds in a year. In a footnote, Taubes says it's not that bad because people didn't stick with it. I had to chuckle at that. Isn't the problem with dieting that people don't stick to diets? I am not impressed by a 9.9 pound weight loss because I got above that with my version of The No S Diet.

2. The information on metabolic syndrome was very interesting. My waist when I was single was 24" and it's now about 37". In the summer before I started The No S Diet, I had blood sugar of 108, making me pre-diabetic. I also had high cholesterol. I got a book on lowering cholesterol and by the next year had it down to normal levels. Also, my blood sugar is now normal as well. What happened? Did eating almonds really help? Is it possible that giving up snacking was what really caused the big change? I sold the cholesterol book at the library's used book fair, and I think my information on levels was in the book. At any rate, I think I'm going to try this fasting approach and see the impact on my blood work after a few months of fasting. My physical is in late June.

The information Taubes presents is interesting, but I just don't understand it all that well. I'm still maintaining that it is at least possible that intermittent fasting could produce the same effect as low carb. In fact, Taubes says exactly that on pages 177-178 (I put in the bolding):

"Whenever we're burning our own fat for fuel (which is, after all, what we want to do with it), our livers will also be taking some of this fat and converting it into ketones, and our brains will be using them for energy. This is a natural process. It happens any time we skip a meal and, most conspicuously, during the hours between dinner or late-night snack and breakfast, when our bodies live off the fat we stored during the day (or at least should be loving off that fat). AS the night goes on, we mobilize progressively more fat, and our livers up their production of ketones. By morning, we're technically in a state known as "ketosis," which means that our brains are primarily using ketones for fuel. This is no different from what happens on a diet that restricts carbohydrates to fewer than sixty or so grams per day."

You say yourself that you think something is missing for you. Could it be that you need to trust your body to eat what it wants but you need times of rest (intermittent fasting)? As if I'm the expert.... I have to laugh in asking you that when I've not exactly got a successful track record at this point.

While the effect may be small, Taubes does say that insulin levels are affected by someone just thinking about eating carbohydrates. My question is this: Is there also an impact on a person who is determined to restrict portion size? Does the insulin level go up as a way to encourage a person to break a diet?

I'm not sure, but I do know that anyone who sticks with a calorie restricted diet must have an iron will, an ability to voluntarily put up with a constant feeling of starvation. What is the body's reaction to starvation? Doesn't it shut down?

Whatever gene produces scientific curiosity bypassed me and went to my kids. I am far more interested in a traditional (read: religious) approaches to controlling weight, only it used to be called gluttony. There is something in me that rebels against the idea that I have to constantly control what I eat and how much I eat, and I think it comes down to trusting that God didn't give us an appetite as a way for us to feel tortured.

Taubes has a great line on page 183: When people, experts or not, decide to review the evidence on an issue dear to their hearts (me included), the tend to see what they want to see." I don't like the idea of low-carb and have observed many people lose weight only to gain it back, I have a deep respect for my religious faith, and I trust that something is amiss in our culture and not in our bodies that has led to the obesity epidemic. Those are my biases, and I'm self-aware enough to identify them. I'm finding the information here useful as a way to encourage me in trying fasting.

Kathleen

[magicman]

Gary Taubes just may have saved my life.

Before I give my testimonial, I want to point out that for people who aren't really into reading books or even the thick posts in this thread that there are some very good videos to watch.

Here is a talk by Taubes entitled Why We Get Fat which is very good, and it's a lot easier to watch it than to read his book http://videomedia2.swedish.org/mediasit ... 9b66ef8f8f

Fathead has already been mentioned, but I will go ahead and regive the link: http://www.hulu.com/watch/196879/fat-head

Big Fat Fiasco by the Producer of Fat Head is currently on youtube: Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exi7O1li_wA

And I highly recommend this video: Sugar The Bitter Truth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM&NR=1

I've struggled with weight loss for years but it was always agonizing and painful... until I discovered that I am insulin resistant thanks to Taubes, and more importantly what that really means.

Now I understand why I got fat because I understand why I was always so hungry. I understand how insulin kept my fat cells from releasing energy to feed my cells causing me to eat more because my cells were literally telling my brain they were starving.

I understand that Fructose especially is a toxin that I will now treat like one. Even though Fructose doesn't cause an insulin spike, I expect it is really the cause of insulin resistance.

I'm happier and healthier, I've just a couple days ago hit 100 pounds down from my heaviest, and I've stopped caring about how much I eat. No longer counting calories. I don't have to. I'm not always hungry any more, so my body is, amazingly, finally, telling when to stop eating. And then I'm not hungry.

And most of all, on some level, I'm able to forgive myself for getting in the state I was in. It's not a failure of character or will. There are specific biochemical reasons I got fat, and with that knowledge I can take efficient action. 100 pounds down and a lot to go!

[Kathleen]

magicman,
Wow! That is terrific!!! I remember you were offended by a post of mine (sorry!), and I've been looking on the board to see how you are doing. I agree 100% with you that this is not a failure of willpower or a symptom of weak character, and I'm happy you are doing so well.
Kathleen

[connorcream]

Gary Taubes just may have saved my life.

I too have the same hope for my son and he needs to gain weight. This is why I think Taubes is a game changer or another metaphor would be a watershed moment.

However, otherwise rational & sane people get very irrate when discussing (limiting, reducing, lowering, etc...) carbs. For me, to reduce my carbs, I do need the other benefits that come with it, not just easy weight loss/maintenance. Smokers in mass did not give up cigarettes just because they might get lung cancer 25 years later. Same for alcoholics. Many negative consequences had to be felt before society changed its mind.

However, I as an individual, do not need to wait.

[TexArk]

Gary Taubes just may have saved my life.

However, otherwise rational & sane people get very irrate when discussing (limiting, reducing, lowering, etc...) carbs.

However, I as an individual, do not need to wait.

I have close friends who are living with diabetes, Crohn's, and celiac disease in their family. Everyone is understanding and accommodating concerning their food choices. But if you choose to live low carb before you have a problem other than weight gain, you are subjected to those defensive conversations from the very same people who are understanding of those who have a disease. Amazing.

I, too, do not need to wait. And I am so thankful that my husband is on board and my daughter is paying attention.

[Kathleen]

Chapter 19

[Kathleen]

I do experience the normal side-effects
of lengthy “semi-starvationâ€â€¦
specifically, Hunger, Cravings, and Obsession with food.
None of the behavioral techniques or Habits I’ve learned
have been able to resolve that issue for me.
Probably because it is a physical problem, not a mental one.

I’ve come to accept this condition
and continue to learn how to live with it,
while remaining open to the possibility
that there might be a better option.
Perhaps this is it.


Hi BrightAngel,

Certainly there are people who are obese due to physical problems. I know that the Rockerfeller University discovery of leptin helped fewer than 10 people.

I just cannot believe that the problem is physical if it affects more than 2/3rds of adults.

Because of that view, I have tried to understand what is known, despite my lack of scientific aptitude.

Anyway, here is a quote from page 212: "The goal is to remove the cause of your excess adiposity -- the fattening carbohydrates - and let your body find its own natural equilibrium between energy expenditure and conumption. So you should eat when you're hungry and eat until you're full."

Have you done research on why people stop following a low-carb diet? Tabues talks about not getting through the tough adjustment period, but I've known plenty of people who lost a lot of weight, stayed on it for months, and then went back to regular eating patterns.

I am trying to wrap up things since I have too many things going on right now, which is why I decided to finish this book. There is one additional quote I'd like to take from the book: "Long-term success may be more likely if no compromise is allowed." That's habit kicking in. When I was at Ski Club last Friday, I was in charge of food being put out for maybe 150 kids. I was around food for three straight hours. When there was a break between when no one was getting food, I got myself a plateful. It was very interesting to observe that I wanted no more food. It's as if my body shut down the desire once I'd had food. Admittedly, this hasn't always happened, and those caramel macademian clusters ended up in my mouth, but I'm happy I could see that it happened even once! Maybe this will continue!

This book is giving me information that I think can indicate fasting is a good idea. There is minimal to no hunger. There is also no cravings (after all, all I have to do is wait until Sunday to eat whatever I want and of as much as I want), and my obsession with dieting, I hope, will taper off as I find what works.

Will fasting work? It remains to be seen. I restarted yesterday.


Kathleen

[Kathleen]

Appendix

I'm totally not interested in restricting my choice of foods, so the Appendix carries little to no weight with me. I will go back to the prior chapter however and quote one more thing frpm page 209: "Sugars are a special case. As I discussed earlier, sugar appears to be addictive in the brain in the same way in which cocaine, nicotine, and heroin are."

I would have a tendency to agree. Sugared pop doesn't appear to have the same effect on me as other sweets, especially chocolate, so I allow it during the week. I believe the last time I had pop was three weeks ago at a Ski Club night. I had to get root beer for my 11 year old for a Valentine's Day party, and there were 5 bottles left. I think they're gone because the kids had them, but I had no interest in them.

Generally, I don't like to drink pop. Given how much pop is drunk in the U.S., it may be that that type of sweet doesn't have an effect on me whereas it does on others. Still, I like Reinhard's idea that you can readily identify sweets (as opposed to carbs) and it is easy to eliminate them. I do think I feel better limiting them to certain days but then allowing as much as I want on those days.

The book, not surprisingly, reinforced my recent decision to try fasting. I did learn from it a few things that were new:
1. The whole discussion of LDL and HDL was interesting. I have no idea what my HDL is.
2. I didn't know insulin production could start just by thinking about eating.
3. I didn't know ketosis started within a few hours of the last time you ate.

There you have it.... I'm done with this book, and I think I need to taper off in posting. My husband was not happy to see me taking the book out to the computer to post.

He doesn't really understand that my desire to figure this out is a big objective for me in parenting our oldest daughter. I for sure don't want her to go down the path of calorie restriction, and carb restriction also seems less than ideal. Fasting could be a good thing to model to my kids. I want to try it. There's a saying my husband has: "Fish or cut bait." I need to stop planning and researching and start doing.

Kathleen

[Graham]

I just cannot believe that the problem is physical if it affects more than 2/3rds of adults.

Kathleen, I wonder what you are meaning here. On the face of it, it has no logic to it at all. Colds affect 100% of adults - so does death - does that mean that these problems aren't physical? I know you mean something here, but you aren't getting the idea across, at least not to me.

Your other question, the one I might paraphrase as "If low carb is so good, and people manage on it for months, why do they then quit?" is one that also intrigues me. I'd guess part of the answer is the difficulty of living in a society that is against that sort of diet, that continually prods one back to consuming those heavily advertised and oh-so-profitable sugar/carb products, but I am just speculating. I do know that any odd diet causes some degree of social friction and that too is a force to be reckoned with.

[Kathleen]

Graham,

You get over a common cold. Fighting weight gain is torture. It comes back to my faith: I cannot believe God put us on earth to torture us, or -- as Shakespeare put it --

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods
They kill us for sport."

I don't believe it.

Kathleen

[TexArk]

Kathleen,

As to your faith: Some argue that we only eat food God gave us. That would not be sugar or refined grains or macademia nut chocolate clusters. It is a real stretch to say that these manmade foods are "good for us" as we might say about some medical advancements or other technological blessings.

As a matter of fact, the Paleo camp would argue that we should only be eating food that can be eaten raw or cooked as we find it, without man interferring in the processing. That would be pretty much meat and greens and a few wild berries, wild honey, and nuts. You couldn't get any more low carb than that. And it would be very much like what God gave us to eat for our pleasure and needs. Even if you add in raw milk, butter, and grains that one could "process" by hand you would still be far, far away from today's high carb fare. The "torture" you mention might come from what we have done to ourselves.

I am not suggesting all live this lifestyle, but it certainly would not be subjecting our bodies to foods which might disrupt the natural order.

[Kathleen]

TexArk,
I agree with you that something has been disrupted -- but what? Is it all the refined carbs and sugar? I would agree with sugar being a problem, but I'm not so sure about refined carbs or certainly whole grains.

My hope, and my experiment, is that what has changed is this constant eating which results in constant elevated levels of insulin. People didn't use to snack even when I was a kid. I remember my 11 year old once saying, "People who eat at McDonald's are fat, but people who eat McDonald's in their car are really fat." I am hoping that simple fasting reduces insulin levels enough to create a low carb effect.

In the Bible, it doesn't say, "If you fast..." It says "When you fast..." Those verses are read every Ash Wednesday.

Kathleen

[magicman]

Smokers in mass did not give up cigarettes just because they might get lung cancer 25 years later. Same for alcoholics. Many negative consequences had to be felt before society changed its mind.

However, I as an individual, do not need to wait.

I actually quit smoking a bit over two years ago.

I've found dieting to be a lot more difficult. You can't go cold turkey off food! You gotta eat!

But now that I understand that fructose is a toxin, I certainly can treat it in the same way I treat nicotine: It's not going into my body. Period.

If low carb is so good, and people manage on it for months, why do they then quit?

I can shed some light on this, I think. My first run on Atkin's was way back in 2001. I lost 75 pounds before going off the diet and of course I gained it all back and more. I'm just now getting to the weight I was when I STARTED that diet. Why did I quit?

I quit because I didn't really understand the diet at all, and I really was looking at it as a diet. Eventually I went back to the "normal" unhealthy eating that got me fat in the first place. Now my normal eating itself is low carb since I understand it (Thanks largely to Taubes.) I'm low carb for life now.

I quit because I didn't know how to cook at all and I was eating a very repetitive meal set and I eventually got tired of just eating meat and cheese. I now have learned to cook, and cook low carb. I have a slice of pizza in the fridge right now that I made from scratch yesterday that only had 12 net carbs in the entire full size pizza. And it was just as good as carby pizza! Okay, it's not the best pizza I've ever had, but it's as good as those frozen ones I used to buy. And before low carb I would've been amazed that I would have a 1/4 slice left over because I was too full to eat another bite!

Besides just the change from from looking at it as a diet to looking at it as eating healthy, I now realize that I am insulin resistant. I understand the toll that my eating took on my body. I understand that I was heading towards type II diabetes and heart disease. My dad, aunt, and brother are all Type II. There but for the grace of low-carb goes me. Now that I really understand the hormonal mechanism of insulin, and the dangers that are involved, it's a whole different ballgame in my mind.

In 2001 all I was thinking was, it would be nice to weigh less, let's try this new fad diet, I sure do like meat and cheese.

Now it's understand a lot of science, my own body and the state it is in, how I dodged a number of bullets by gaining this knowledge in time, and that's a question of my life or death whether I apply this knowledge to my life. So you bet I'm applying it!

Oh, one more thing. When you are an insulin resistant person and you have a cheat meal that spikes your insulin you're going to go back into the cycle I mentioned in my last post. Have one cheat meal and your body starts screaming at you again to eat more because suddenly the insulin is preventing your fat stores from feeding you. It's easy to mess up and have a cheat meal turn into a cheat day into a cheat week into really just eating the way you used to. I think this could be a potential pitfall to intermittent fasting to some.

I just cannot believe that the problem is physical if it affects more than 2/3rds of adults.

Name any other carnivore or omnivore that eats refined carbs as the percentage of their calories that we as a nation do. The nutritional authorities telling us to reduce fat ends up meaning adding carbs.

The way I see it is the lipid hypothesis has caused us as a nation to end up with insulin resistance. Of course, some people are immune. But it seems most people are susceptible, it's just a question of after how long.

And I personally think that Fructose is public enemy #1 as potential cause of insulin resistance. I think that if we did nothing else besides remove Fructose from the American diet the obesity epidemic would begin to reverse. Which isn't to say that those of us who are already insulin resistant shouldn't avoid a much larger class of carb. But the Japanese lived on rice and didn't have obesity until... until Fructose was added to their diet.

[BrightAngel]

Chapter 18 – Nature of a Healthy Diet
My eyes glaze over when I read through anything scientific.
There was a lot in this chapter that just flowed right over me.

The information Taubes presents is interesting,
but I just don't understand it all that well.
I'm still maintaining that it is at least possible that intermittent fasting
could produce the same effect as low carb.
In fact, Taubes says exactly that on pages 177-178 (I put in the bolding):

"Whenever we're burning our own fat for fuel (which is, after all, what we want to do with it), our livers will also be taking some of this fat and converting it into ketones, and our brains will be using them for energy. This is a natural process. It happens any time we skip a meal and, most conspicuously, during the hours between dinner or late-night snack and breakfast, when our bodies live off the fat we stored during the day (or at least should be loving off that fat). AS the night goes on, we mobilize progressively more fat, and our livers up their production of ketones. By morning, we're technically in a state known as "ketosis," which means that our brains are primarily using ketones for fuel. This is no different from what happens on a diet that restricts carbohydrates to fewer than sixty or so grams per day."

You are correct in making this connection.
I have addressed this issue several times in prior posts.
However....WHAT AND HOW MUCH you eat during the periods when you are not fasting is the difference.

You say that you think something is missing.
Could it be that you need to trust your body to eat what it wants
but you need times of rest (intermittent fasting)?

Absolutely not !
All of the scientific research available today points to the fact that
an obese person or reduced obese person
CAN NOT and MUST NOT trust their body to tell them how much to eat.
IF they want to become or remain normal weight (while eating carbs).

I will not attempt to share the scientific principles behind this with you,
but it is an absolute fact.
My own personal experience in my body also verifies this,
as does my careful observations of the behavior and results of others.

My prior statement that something was missing,
refers to the fact that I feel there might be some kind of "missing link"
between the “conventional wisdom of calories-in/calories-out “
and the low-carb/insulin theories stated by Taubes
and that there is a "missing link"link between the two Theories
that should tie them together.

I feel that each of those Theories have valid issues, but that each is incomplete.
After giving much thought to the matter,
I'm leaning toward acceptance of a PERSONAL HYPOTHESIS which is:

• First:. The primary reason that people grow fat is due to a genetic defect in their fat regulation,
  and due to that small physical defect, they are driven to overeat which makes them fat.
  This is a PHYSICAL issue, a problem in the body.
  However, even when that issue has been dealt with...
  there are additional reasons that can cause people to grow fat.
  
  1. One of these reasons could be a PSYCHOLGICAL issue, a problem in the mind.
  Some people have developed mental, emotional, and behavioral
  problems that involve food issues, and even when the body is operating properly,
  those mental issues cause them to overeat; and
  
  2. Another of these reasons could be basic CHARACTER and SPIRITUAL issues,
  which involves a conscious choice to engage in Greed and GLuttony
  even though that person is not driven to do so by a defect of their body.
  
  So...to Summarize: Even if a person's body can be normalized
  by the restriction or elimination of carbohydrates;
  that person can still choose to overeat out of habit; to relieve emotional distress (MENTAL);
  or choose to "blindly travel to perdition", ignoring their body's requirements,
  by eating an excess of "fat and protein" until they become ill,
  or by deliberately loading their body up with substances that thrill their senses..
  (i.e. sugars and starches etc.) despite the harm they cause it
  with excessive food...including carbohydrates (CHARACTER/SPIRITUAL).

I don't know how valid that Hypothese is....
but for me, it seems to cover most of the bases.
i.e. You might be overeating because your body is genetically defective;
but once you have discovered a treatment or solution to remedy this;
your psychological issues may still prevent you from eating appropriately;
and your basic character may be defective, which can still prevent you from eating appropriately.

Perhaps low-carb eating could resolve the first issue (the BODY);,
and calorie counting or portion control is necessary for the second issue (the MIND;
however, there is really no solution for those who refuse to deal
with their basic character and spiritual issues.
If the BODY causes gluttony, and one can change that by their food substance (such as low-carb),
but one deliberately chooses the sensual experience of an excess amount of those carbs,
the issue would be CHARACTER or SPRITUAL.

This is my current hypothesis......and I'm open to change my mind.
Regarding intermittent fasting:
Kathleen, I simply don't know WHY you keep failing to pick up up and process
my prior statements to you about my extensive personal experience with intermittent fasting.
AGAIN, I'll tell you that I have more than 4 years of recent personal hands-on
experience with various types of intermittent fasting.
It is rather exasperating to be spoken to as though I've failed to grasp the concept
when my personal experience with that method is far more extensive than your own.

I don't like the idea of low-carb
and have observed
many people lose weight only to gain it back,

That is ONLY obvious.
If a recovering alcoholic starts drinking, he becomes a drunk again.
If a recovering drug addict starts using drugs again, his behavior changes accordingly.
If a person who has a genetic defect with their fat regulation
controls it and loses weight by eating low-carb,
then starts eating carbohydrates again, that person will get fat again.

Whatever gene produces scientific curiosity bypassed me .
I am far more interested in a traditional (read: religious) approache
to controlling weight, only it used to be called gluttony.
There is something in me that rebels against the idea
that I have to constantly control what I eat and how much I eat,
and I think it comes down to trusting
that God didn't give us an appetite as a way for us to feel tortured.

Taubes has a great line on page 183:"

When people, experts or not, decide to review the evidence
on an issue dear to their hearts (me included),
they tend to see what they want to see."

I trust that something is amiss in our culture and not in our bodies
that has led to the obesity epidemic.
Those are my biases, and I'm self-aware enough to identify them.
I'm finding the information here useful as a way
to encourage me in trying fasting.

There is a scripture that says:
"Every good and perfect gift cometh from the father (meaning God)"
However, there are many things in this world that are neither
good nor perfect.

I won't waste our time talking about specific diseases, and wars
which have wiped out entire populations
But I will mention that there are now a great many diseases in the modern world
that cause a very large number of people to live with tremendous amount of pain and suffering.

I will mention the existence of Diabetes type I and type II which
perhaps were not in existence at the time of world's creation,
but which became prevalent in civilization after those societies
were introduced to the massive use of sugar and white flour.

There is no doubt that many poisonous plants exist in the world,
and the body of man was not designed to eat or tolerate them.

I propose that it is possible that God created the body to be nurtured
by "real" foods,
but that Man has chosen to alter foods that alter the body,
in a way similar, but not as immediately harmful, as poisonous plants alter it.

It isn't that the Basic foods caused man harm,
it's what man chose to do with those foods,
how that choice has affected generations over time,
and ultimately what we, as individuals now choose to eat.

.....NOTE: ...........somebody get wones over here.
bright angel is championing "real food"...........................

As a religious woman, I am certain you are aware
of the concept of "preverted appetite".
Although God gave man his senses and appetites,
man can choose to pervert or corrupt them.

There is nothing in scripture that indicates that God
intended for man to eat as much of everything he wants
whenever he wants. In fact the old testament is packed
with eating restriction references, as well as restrictions
on other appetites...such as man's sexual appetites.

I also think Taubes was correct when he said that people will see what they choose to see.

[BrightAngel]

Chapter 19
Certainly there are people who are obese due to physical problems.
I know that the Rockerfeller University discovery of leptin helped fewer than 10 people.

I just cannot believe that the problem is physical
if it affects more than 2/3rds of adults.

Because of that view, I have tried to understand what is known,
despite my lack of scientific aptitude.

Anyway, here is a quote from page 212:

"The goal is to remove the cause of your excess adiposity --
the fattening carbohydrates - and let your body find its own natural equilibrium
between energy expenditure and conumption.
So you should eat when you're hungry and eat until you're full."

why people stop following a low-carb diet?
Tabues talks about not getting through the tough adjustment period,
but I've known plenty of people who lost a lot of weight,
stayed on it for months, and then went back to regular eating patterns.

I've known lots of ex-smokers who return to tobacco
after several years without them.
I've known many recovering alcoholics who return to drinking,
after several years of sobriety.
I've known of people returning to heroin and cocaine
after several years of "clean" living.
I'd say low-carb people return to carbohydrates for exactly the same reason.

There is a great sensual pleasure in eating carbohydrates,
and that memory is still in place. Despite the physical recovery
that takes place in the body, the lure is still present in the mind.
The return to carbohydrates is either a mental or character issue,
rather than a physical one.

Taubes says:
"Long-term success may be more likely if no compromise is allowed."
That's habit kicking in.

The Habit concept is a valuable one,
however, I believe that Taubes was not talking about the behavioral concept of Habit,(MIND)
but was talking about the physical cravings caused by a physical addiction to carbohydrates.(BODY)

[BrightAngel]

Appendix

I'm totally not interested in restricting my choice of foods,
so the Appendix carries little to no weight with me.
I will go back to the prior chapter however and quote one more thing frpm page 209:

"Sugars are a special case.
As I discussed earlier, sugar appears to be addictive in the brain
in the same way in which cocaine, nicotine, and heroin are."

I would have a tendency to agree.

The Appendix is merely informational
for those who are unfamiliar with a typical low-carbohydrate diet.

[connorcream]

Smokers in mass did not give up cigarettes just because they might get lung cancer 25 years later. Same for alcoholics. Many negative consequences had to be felt before society changed its mind.

However, I as an individual, do not need to wait.

I actually quit smoking a bit over two years ago.

I am glad you quit. Others, of course, have not. Still others who did quit needed a lot of reasons to do so. The young still are enamored by it as I watch them stroll by at night.

I stand by my statement. We, in mass, as a society in the United States, did not castigate smoking until evidence of its harmfull effects, from many sources, over a great deal of time, incuring enormous expense prompted a national educational campaign to do so. Tobacco was foundational in the development of this country. Carbs in people's minds are foundational to civilization (i.e. Fertile Crescent). Smoking by doctors during operations was accepted a mere few decades ago. I have antique party trays, with built in cigarette holders which assumed this pleasure would be needed. The kicker, is that a minority of people die from their smokes. Some people seem to be able to smoke to their graves with ill effects, i.e. George Burns. Much like carb consumption, there is wide ranging variability in tolerance.

That idea is what I was commenting on from WWGF.

[Kathleen]

BrightAngel,

I have been very interested in your experience of intermittent fasting, but I don't think it applies because you also have been controlling portions. I think the combination of no portion control and intermittent fasting is what might work.

As I read your long and very informative posts, I think of the saying, "I don't let facts get in the way of my opinion." It's a joke, of course, but I don't think I'm going to get off this idea until I successfully experiment for a few months.

So -- when is this experiment going to start, I ask myself, having just polished off some caramel macademian clusters.

Kathleen

[TexArk]

posted in wrong thread. sorry

[BrightAngel]

NOTE:
It looks like Kathleen and I have now completed our discussion
of Taubes' book, Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It.
Please feel free to continue to make comments in this thread
if you wish to do so.

I will be moving my Chapter Summaries and comments to DietHobby
for an extended discussion with the General Population.
Everyone is invited to participate, no matter what their readership status,
and I think this could become very interesting.

Join me at www.diethobby.com.
(I'll also still be here at No S.)

[magicman]

I stand by my statement.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

[BrightAngel]

Hi MagicMan,
It's good to see you here.

[connorcream]

I stand by my statement.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

We are good. Glad to see you posting.

DS current injections & rx are not working. Today he was put on experimental meds long term side effects unknown.

All of this conversation is personal and relevant. It is not an academic exercise for my family. DS knowing this and only being 21, had 2-3 cups of pasta with his dinner. Carb count about 85 grams only for the pasta. He had other choices presented. I see him like I see a drunk with a drink.

[BrightAngel]

DS current injections & rx are not working.
Today he was put on experimental meds long term side effects unknown.

All of this conversation is personal and relevant.
It is not an academic exercise for my family.

Connorcream,
my thoughts are with you,
and I wish the best for your son and for you.

[BrightAngel]

NOTE:
The Discussion between Kathleen and me has ended.

My Chapter Summaries and comments have moved
to BookTalk, at www.DietHobby.com

You can review the book and make comments there.