I'm finding it harder to talk to "dieters"

[kccc]

... Especially if they're only pretending to be on a diet.

Ran into someone today talking about (futile) attempts to lose weight - both his and his wife's. A round of WW that didn't work, but because "she didn't really follow it." But she really doesn't eat anything (but is very overweight - right). And a friend he knew who'd done Atkins and lost a lot, and he was sort of trying it, but had a hard time with sweets...He mentioned his lunch, and it was the worst of fast-food.

And I knew that No-S would just not make sense to him... It was like he was talking a totally different language. (And since I didn't know him well, I didn't want to get into it.)

Just a very odd feeling.

(Edited to make subject line shorter, so it would make sense.)

[Blithe Morning]

When I ran the benevolence ministry at church, I learned to spot alcoholics by the huge holes in their stories. I came to the conclusion that these holes were caused by a tangle of shame, denial, self pity, deception and a willful lack of self awareness that made it difficult for them to say certain things, let alone take ownership for the situation they were in.

I get the same feeling when listening to some people talk about food. Too bad, because straightening out eating habits is often easier than drinking addiction.

Or, now that I'm thinking about Dr. David Kessler's book, maybe it isn't.

[wosnes]

When I ran the benevolence ministry at church, I learned to spot alcoholics by the huge holes in their stories. I came to the conclusion that these holes were caused by a tangle of shame, denial, self pity, deception and a willful lack of self awareness that made it difficult for them to say certain things, let alone take ownership for the situation they were in.

I get the same feeling when listening to some people talk about food. Too bad, because straightening out eating habits is often easier than drinking addiction.

Or, now that I'm thinking about Dr. David Kessler's book, maybe it isn't.

I've not read Kessler's book yet, but I think straightening out eating habits, at least or maybe especially the food part of it, isn't all that easy. If you pay attention to the media and advertising, etc., you can think you're doing well while not doing well at all. People don't know what good, healthy food is anymore. We've all been deceived by Big Food. If you're an alcoholic and admit you have a problem, you know booze is bad for you. Food isn't so easy, actually.

[vmelo]

KCCC, I know what you mean. I don't know why, but just for the heck of it, I sometimes visit diet boards. One in particular (which I won't name) drives me up the wall so much that I haven't been on it for at least two weeks. One of my breaking points for that board was a post by someone who was calorie counting but just COULDN'T POSSIBLY eat all of her 1200 allotted daily calories. She was 165 lbs.

Not to be mean, but how the heck did she get that big if she can't eat even 1200 calories!!! Sorry, but I'm not patient with self-deception. I'm certainly no poster child for disciplined eating, but at least I'm not fooling myself. I'm fat because I'm eating WAY more than 1200 calories (probably much more than 2000 calories) per day.

In short, I, too, have little tolerance for those who don't/won't face up to reality.

[DaveMc]

I haven't spoken to many "dieters", but I do keep hearing about diet plans, and my post-No-S reaction is "You're making this too hard and too complicated".

Another interesting side-effect of No-S is that it's changing my reaction to thin people I pass on the street. I used to think, at some level, that they must be either obsessive about not eating, or fortunate enough to have a genetic predisposition towards thinness, or they must just not be all that interested in food. Now my reaction is more along the lines of "They must eat pretty sensibly", which is probably true in most cases. (I may pass the odd genetic freak who is "cheating" by being naturally thin no matter what they eat, but probably not that many.) I also think there's no reason for me not to be thin, myself. This is a nice change.

[wosnes]

KCCC, I know what you mean. I don't know why, but just for the heck of it, I sometimes visit diet boards. One in particular (which I won't name) drives me up the wall so much that I haven't been on it for at least two weeks. One of my breaking points for that board was a post by someone who was calorie counting but just COULDN'T POSSIBLY eat all of her 1200 allotted daily calories. She was 165 lbs.

Not to be mean, but how the heck did she get that big if she can't eat even 1200 calories!!! Sorry, but I'm not patient with self-deception. I'm certainly no poster child for disciplined eating, but at least I'm not fooling myself. I'm fat because I'm eating WAY more than 1200 calories (probably much more than 2000 calories) per day.

In short, I, too, have little tolerance for those who don't/won't face up to reality.

Well, not sticking up for that dieter, you can consume a LOT of calories with minimal food depending on what you're eating. So 1200 calories worth of lower-calorie food might seem like a lot of volume. I have a friend who always said she didn't eat that much, but she weighed well over 250. In terms of volume, she didn't eat much, but it was all packed full of calories. I ate a LOT more food, but less calorie dense food.

[buttercreampillow]

One in particular (which I won't name) drives me up the wall so much that I haven't been on it for at least two weeks. One of my breaking points for that board was a post by someone who was calorie counting but just COULDN'T POSSIBLY eat all of her 1200 allotted daily calories. She was 165 lbs.

Not to be mean, but how the heck did she get that big if she can't eat even 1200 calories!!!

Maybe what she meant was that she couldn't make herself eat 1200 calories worth of that plastic diet food! (I would know.)

[Bushranger]

I've not read Kessler's book yet, but I think straightening out eating habits, at least or maybe especially the food part of it, isn't all that easy. If you pay attention to the media and advertising, etc., you can think you're doing well while not doing well at all. People don't know what good, healthy food is anymore. We've all been deceived by Big Food. If you're an alcoholic and admit you have a problem, you know booze is bad for you. Food isn't so easy, actually.

I don't agree with this conclusion as to why it's hard. People know perfectly well what healthy is, they just don't care enough to bother changing the way they eat. Why do so many people always think the ignorant masses are the ignorant masses? Is the knowledge of Big Food really only limited to the elite few on these types of forums? Not likely. They are fat because they are lazy, don't deal with emotional issues (once in a blue moon it's a legit medical condition) and eat way too much calorically thanks to their McDiet. It may not be easy to fix, but ignorance of the facts aren't the reason, it's more due to the fact that it's not an injection or pill to cure them of gluttony.

Not to be mean, but how the heck did she get that big if she can't eat even 1200 calories!!! Sorry, but I'm not patient with self-deception. I'm certainly no poster child for disciplined eating, but at least I'm not fooling myself. I'm fat because I'm eating WAY more than 1200 calories (probably much more than 2000 calories) per day.

In short, I, too, have little tolerance for those who don't/won't face up to reality.

This is the real reason for most fat people. You got it spot on with that self-deception and excuses BS. Your acknowledgement of it all puts you so far ahead of the game it's not funny. Now if only the rest of them took some personal responsibility. Huge gold star for you vmelo.

Well, not sticking up for that dieter, you can consume a LOT of calories with minimal food depending on what you're eating. So 1200 calories worth of lower-calorie food might seem like a lot of volume. I have a friend who always said she didn't eat that much, but she weighed well over 250. In terms of volume, she didn't eat much, but it was all packed full of calories. I ate a LOT more food, but less calorie dense food.

Maybe so, but if it really was 1200 calories worth of food it would not have been that dense so she could easily have consumed the entire volume as the feeling of satiety would take much longer. I can eat a lot more salad by volume than meat or dairy, anyone could. She's lying, either to herself or everyone else.

[buttercreampillow]

They are fat because they are lazy, don't deal with emotional issues (once in a blue moon it's a legit medical condition) and eat way too much calorically thanks to their McDiet.

I don't believe it is true to say that we have become fat because we are "lazy." Many of us here on this board have spent hundreds, even thousands, of hours reading, studying, and struggling to understand our weight problems and fix them. Many of us have heroically, and futilely, fought our weight for most of our lifetimes. If weight loss were that simple, almost every diet plan would work since most people experience a burst of energy and willpower when they start a new diet. It's a lot more complicated than that.

Also, to say that we "don't deal with emotional issues" implies that if we would just face our problems for once, we would all be cured and we could lose weight. Again, it's just not that simple. This board is populated with smart, emotionally-aware people, yet we're all here because we were, in varying degrees, fat.

Of course, it's true that we ate too much. The big question is "how can we stop?" Fortunately, No S seems to be the answer.

[mimi]

This board is populated with smart, emotionally-aware people, yet we're all here because we were, in varying degrees, fat.

Love your use of the past tense - WERE fat...and no longer! We're slowly melting down to a healthy size!!

Mimi

[BrightAngel]

[quote="Bushranger]
She's lying, either to herself or everyone else.

I think that's too Harsh.
It reminds me of statements by many uninformed and tactless medical people in my past.
It's a popular position, but not entirely accurate, and rather unkind.

Everyone's body is NOT the same.
There is a great deal of evidence that Genetics,
as well as age, sex, size, and activity has a great deal to do with one's "natural" weight,
and that the body takes great measures to protect it's "natural" weight,
no matter how few calories one eats.

Some people have bodies with very high "natural" weights.
Current, commonly accepted weight standards
were written by insurance companies, based on limited data.
There are many (non-muscled) people who have a "natural" weight far above the "obesity" level.

There are also many short, older females in the world
that ACTUALLY MUST eat between 800 and 1200 calories daily
to maintain their current weight.
Some must eat even less.
I am one of them.

I am also a person who logs ALL her food into a food journal every day,
and I have done so for the past 1796 consecutive days.
Therefore, I know (as much as it is possible for anyone to know)
EXACTLY how many calories per day I eat.

I also know many women who are 50 to 70 lbs heavier than me
that have to eat the same amount of calories to stay their current weights.
This is despite the addition of 30 to 60 minutes of daily low-impact exercise to their lives.

The charts and data out there are based on "averages".
There are people who have very low metabolism rates,
just like there are people who have very high metabolism rates.
The field of Medicine doesn't have cures or treatments for some.
The people who actually fall into the "average" range
do not realize how very fortunate they are.

"Vanilla No S" works very well for large people (especially male)
who have an average or above-average metabolism rate.
But smaller, older people with low-metabolisms
have to do quite a bit of low-calorie modification
to obtain and maintain a "reasonable" weight.

Simply because some people lie to themselves and others about their food intake,
doesn't mean every overweight or obese person does so.
I wish we could all be kinder to and less judgmental of "fat" people.
It is a serious problem for many that requires severe deprivation.

[winnie96]

People know perfectly well what healthy is, they just don't care enough to bother changing the way they eat.

In my experience, many people think they know what's healthy, but it often comes down to, perhaps, leaving the cheese off their Angus Third Pounder at McDonald's. If you haven't studied or been exposed to real nutritional information, the scope of your food universe produces a definition of "healthy" that can be way off the mark. And they often care deeply about changing the way they eat -- it's just that they change it to something that isn't as healthy as they might think.

[Nichole]

I don't think anyone has any right to tell someone else if what they are doing is right or wrong, unless they are anorexic or bulimic or in immediate danger. Discouragement is the worst - when it comes to ANYTHING. People need to find their own paths. If someone said to me, "I am going on Atkins," I'd say, "Okay, when do you start?" not "Try No-S, it's far superior and what you are doing is absolutely wrong." It's not what people want to hear. People need and want encouragement.

And I think if a man is eating McDonalds for lunch and calling it the Atkins diet, he knows deep down that he's not doing it right. I'd probably say, "Atkins doesn't mean unhealthy fast food," but I wouldn't say "Don't do Atkins."

And that lady who is said she is having trouble getting to 1,200 might have already lost some weight - how does anyone know what she's gone through so far?

[kccc]

I think most people are actually very ignorant about what "healthy" is. We live in an ENVIRONMENT and culture that does not support healthy choices - in fact, just the opposite.

Being fat isn't evidence of laziness. Being healthy in our culture/environment takes HUGE amounts of work. No-S provides a structure to make it easier (possible), but trying to do "ordinary" diets is HARD. (I have lost weight that way. It took FAR too much attention.)

Eating what passes for normal food in our culture would make almost any normal person fat. Alas.

I agree, making this a moral issue is not kind, and I'd rather not do it. I think Western culture (USA in particular - I can't speak to others) tends to view a lot of systemic, cultural issues as individual problems, and I would classify obesity as falling into that category.

Still, my original statement - that I'm finding it hard to connect to dieters - is true. Especially since I DON'T want to discourage any effort. I agree with Nichole that everyone has to find their own paths, and the best you can do is to say "this works for me" when you have a good opening.

[Nichole]

We live in an ENVIRONMENT and culture that does not support healthy choices - in fact, just the opposite.

I think I'd have to agree with that... At the supermarket, for instance, buying fresh produce and meat is so much more expensive than buying junk. And, in my family, we can never have a simple get together without desserts - yes, more than one!

[vmelo]

I don't think anyone has any right to tell someone else if what they are doing is right or wrong, unless they are anorexic or bulimic or in immediate danger. . . . [snip]

And I think if a man is eating McDonalds for lunch and calling it the Atkins diet, he knows deep down that he's not doing it right. I'd probably say, "Atkins doesn't mean unhealthy fast food," but I wouldn't say "Don't do Atkins."

But isn't that the same thing---just on a lesser scale? You're telling that dieter, in kinder words, that what he perceives as eating "on-plan Atkins" is not really "on-plan Atkins." That's just my take on this, though. I tend to think that most disagreements in life generally meet back at the same point; it's just the level that differs.

And that lady who is said she is having trouble getting to 1,200 might have already lost some weight - how does anyone know what she's gone through so far?

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that she wasn't doing right by eating 1200 calories. I was saying that I find it hard to believe that someone who is 165 lbs. is claiming to find it difficult to fit in all 1200 calories. I'm 169 lbs., and I eat pretty healthy foods, but I eat too much of them, which is why I'm 169 lbs. Unless there's a medical condition of some kind or the person is an anomaly, there's no way that person got to 165 lbs. by not being able to eat enough calories. (And her point was not that she found the food unappealing). That's not the only post I've read like that either. That, the "you-gained-weight-because-you gained-muscle" and "starvation-mode" posts seem to be the most common on dieting boards.

I know that some on this board have indicated that they believe that there are still people in our society who are uneducated about healthy eating. I don't really buy into that. Even if someone is not aware on the level that many here are aware, most people know that that Ben & Jerry's pint isn't good for the waistline. They know that a doughnut every morning probably isn't as good as having cereal. In other words, I think that people have enough general nutrition knowledge to be thinner if they wanted to. I think that most people are looking for some sort of magic solution that allows them to eat everything they love with no restrictions and still stay thin (Hence the allure of many diet programs that suggest that this is possible).

No-S is honest in that it doesn't promise unrestricted eating. There are some restrictions, but those restrictions are generally easier to fit into one's lifestyle than any other plan that I've seen.

[wosnes]

I think most people are actually very ignorant about what "healthy" is. We live in an ENVIRONMENT and culture that does not support healthy choices - in fact, just the opposite.

Being fat isn't evidence of laziness. Being healthy in our culture/environment takes HUGE amounts of work. No-S provides a structure to make it easier (possible), but trying to do "ordinary" diets is HARD. (I have lost weight that way. It took FAR too much attention.)

Eating what passes for normal food in our culture would make almost any normal person fat. Alas.

Oh, I agree! It's even more difficult if you eat out much. We have such strange beliefs about food. The U.S. is probably one of the only places where fake food is thought to be better than the real thing.

[Bushranger]

I guess I struck a bit of a nerve with some of you. As much as I don't want to hurt any of your feelings, you'll never convince me that 9 out of 10 people are fat for reasons other than their own poor choices. I don't give non-existent BS as excuses in my life so I guess I find it hard to tolerate them from others.

I had heart surgery as a child and, although it is repaired, my heart does not function like normal. It's certainly makes staying fit and healthy a lot harder, but I don't recall ever using it as an excuse to not work at being as fit and healthy as I possibly can be. Sure I'll never be able to compete athletically, but I'm healthy even by normal standards thanks to not using it as an excuse to sit in the bleachers while the game of life is playing.

People who like to have excuses for failing sure do hate it when other people don't accept those excuses. I guess it hurts more these days too because more and more people jump on the pity wagon with them so they don’t get the reality check as often as times gone past.

[BrightAngel]

I guess I struck a bit of a nerve with some of you.

I think it is very important to remember.....
The world is full of different people with different bodies.
What is true for one personally,
or for one's own family, friends, and associates,
or even for most people in general,
is Just Not True for Everyone.

[wosnes]

Bushranger, it's not as easy as one would think to eat healthy in the U.S, especially if one is low income or has limited options in where you shop for food. I wasn't fully aware of it until relatively recently. Or, like you, disbelieving.

Healthy food is expensive here; unhealthy food is cheap. A number of our largest cities have few grocery stores within the city limits, but large numbers of convenience stores which carry little in the way of "healthy" food.

I thought that one could always buy beans and rice and some fresh produce and make a meal. Yes, it's more time consuming than the convenience foods, but it's cheaper and healthier. Well, it turns out that the beans, rice and fresh produce aren't readily available everywhere. Or cheaper.

It's cheaper to buy value meals for a family at fast-food outlets than it is to buy groceries for a meal. One fast food company has run a commercial showing that you can buy a meal there for less money than you can buy the ingredients at the grocery.

A lot of this is blamed on women entering the workforce and spending less time in the kitchen. I believed that for a while, too. Then I remembered that my mother (who would be the same age as Clara from the Depression Era recipes videos), her sisters, many of their friends and the majority of my friend's mothers worked full time and cooked meals from scratch every night. I don't think it's the spending less time in the kitchen that's the problem. I think it's that we gave up our authority and knowledge in the kitchen. We handed it right over to Big Food. We trusted that not only could they make meal preparation easier, it would be the same kind of healthy food we were accustomed to eating. We were wrong.

Then there's the quality of the food available, which is a whole other story.

It's a complex problem. Someone could write a book about it -- oh, wait, they have! A number of people have. But the crappy diet books get a lot more attention than the books that point out the problems and offer suggestions how to fix it. In the meantime, we're being encouraged to eat crappy food 24/7.

The problem is severe enough that Michael Pollan has said that we can't begin to address our health problems until we address the problem with the food supply. He's offered ways to fix it, but unfortunately, they're not doable for everyone. It's not just that it's not easy, in many cases finding and cooking healthy food would become a full time job time-wise.

[harmony]

It is hard to know what is healthy anymore. I used to think I knew, but I really don't anymore. The more I research, the less there is for me to eat. It has basically come down to everything at the local grocery store is poison - the meat, the vegetables, the bread, the milk, etc. etc. It may just be that people are sick of constantly having the definition of healthy changing on them. I know I am and quite a few of my family and friends believe the same. Unfortunately, that can sometimes lead to throwing the baby out with the bathwater and giving up all common sense when it comes to food. For me it has made it hard to trust or follow any health program out there. There is always evidence somewhere to be found telling you that you are wrong. Yet, there is still the guilt that we are fat and unhealthy (referring to my family here). So we decide to follow a new or old diet for a while, but our hearts aren't really in it, the support system isn't there any more, and there is no guarantees of health or weight loss.

The best thing I ever did for myself (health-wise) was to stop worrying about health anymore. I eat out a lot less because I don't feel I need to change my way of cooking or relearn how to shop for groceries. I do not turn my nose up at the occasional processed food. Everything in moderation for me includes my definition of what's healthy. If it did not, I would give up in frustration and eat at KFC every day. haha.

Anyway, I do wonder if half-hearted dieters are feeling the same way as I have. I wonder if they have lost faith in the diet, but because we have been told that we can no longer trust our own common sense, they feel they need a diet so they are not perceived as being lazy. (I believe there is a difference between being lazy and feeling paralyzed and hopeless when nothing seems to work.) It is better to say you are trying (even if you really aren't) than to admit that you have given up all together. It is a depressing thing to give up.

There are still no guarantees for me on No-S, but at least I can stop worrying about what is healthy and what is not for a while, and I can get back to thinking about more than just food. I am going to work on building confidence in my own common sense and depend less on others' ideas of what healthy is for a while.

[Blithe Morning]

It is hard to know what is healthy anymore. I used to think I knew, but I really don't anymore. The more I research, the less there is for me to eat.

Harmony, so true. And so tragic and unnecessary. Too bad more people aren't relying on their common sense.

[jbettin]

Bushranger, it's not as easy as one would think to eat healthy in the U.S, especially if one is low income or has limited options in where you shop for food.

I HAD to chime in on this one, because I so strongly disagree. The healthiest foods are often the cheapest! Our family eats tons of whole grains, beans, fruits, vegetables, and lean meats. We do that for considerably less than the monthly allowance we'd get if we were on food stamps. With four kids and their schedules, I can't spend an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen. I've had to learn to "work smart" in that area.

It's not magic, but I did have to educate myself about how to do it, and I've continued refining my methods. I think it's well worth the effort; none of my kids is even remotely overweight, and my doctor says my cholesterol numbers are "the best he's ever seen". I'm No-S'ing as a preventive measure because now that I've hit the Big 5-0, I'm finding that I need to stay more focused if I'm not going to gain weight.

[jumbotights]

They are fat because they are lazy, don't deal with emotional issues (once in a blue moon it's a legit medical condition) and eat way too much calorically thanks to their McDiet. It may not be easy to fix, but ignorance of the facts aren't the reason, it's more due to the fact that it's not an injection or pill to cure them of gluttony.

I must admit that this is actually true for me. Lazy and eating for emotional reasons is SPOT-ON for me. No sense in lying about it, but i am here now working hard to change that!

[Bushranger]

Bushranger, it's not as easy as one would think to eat healthy in the U.S, especially if one is low income or has limited options in where you shop for food.

Australia is a mini-USA. Your statement is bunk, it's easy to get healthy foods if you choose to get them. It's just people choose not to and want to McEat instead.

Bushranger, it's not as easy as one would think to eat healthy in the U.S, especially if one is low income or has limited options in where you shop for food.

I HAD to chime in on this one, because I so strongly disagree. The healthiest foods are often the cheapest! Our family eats tons of whole grains, beans, fruits, vegetables, and lean meats. We do that for considerably less than the monthly allowance we'd get if we were on food stamps. With four kids and their schedules, I can't spend an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen. I've had to learn to "work smart" in that area.

I’ve experienced the same. Since we have systematically shifted away from canned goods and packages and toward a healthier diet with less overall meat and much more fresh fruit, veg and dry beans, our shopping bill averages lower than our previous budget.

They are fat because they are lazy, don't deal with emotional issues (once in a blue moon it's a legit medical condition) and eat way too much calorically thanks to their McDiet. It may not be easy to fix, but ignorance of the facts aren't the reason, it's more due to the fact that it's not an injection or pill to cure them of gluttony.

I must admit that this is actually true for me. Lazy and eating for emotional reasons is SPOT-ON for me. No sense in lying about it, but i am here now working hard to change that!

Well you, unlike most of the excuse merchants, are on the road to success because you have identified honestly what you need to correct for the long term eating to change for the better. Well done and welcome to the No Excuses club.

[winnie96]

Your statement is bunk, it's easy to get healthy foods if you choose to get them.

Does anyone else think that this sort of response is, um, a little un-No-S-ish?

[Bushranger]

Your statement is bunk, it's easy to get healthy foods if you choose to get them.

Does anyone else think that this sort of response is, um, a little un-No-S-ish?

You do realise No S is only a diet ideology right? If you are going to start challenging people's differing opinions and statements in that kind of way you are treading mighty close to cultism or fanaticism. I don’t think that’s a place most people here want to go, regardless of our differences.

[BrightAngel]

Bushranger said: "You do realise No S is only a diet ideology right?"

Each No S forum member brings his or her own personal experiences,
values, and opinions.
So far, the forum tone has been one of Tolerance and Understanding of our differences
Each one of us strives to voice our opinions
with as much kindness and open-mindness as we possess.
I hope you will help this to continue.

[Bushranger]

Please feel free to actually read what I was responding too. Are you endorsing fanaticism/cultism or hypocritically choosing to overlook it in favour of your friend?

[TunaFishKid]

Your statement is bunk, it's easy to get healthy foods if you choose to get them.

Does anyone else think that this sort of response is, um, a little un-No-S-ish?

You do realise No S is only a diet ideology right? If you are going to start challenging people's differing opinions and statements in that kind of way you are treading mighty close to cultism or fanaticism. I don’t think that’s a place most people here want to go, regardless of our differences.

I don't think supporting No S ideas on a No S forum falls under the heading of cultism or fanaticism. It's more like common sense.

[Bushranger]

Your statement is bunk, it's easy to get healthy foods if you choose to get them.

Does anyone else think that this sort of response is, um, a little un-No-S-ish?

You do realise No S is only a diet ideology right? If you are going to start challenging people's differing opinions and statements in that kind of way you are treading mighty close to cultism or fanaticism. I don’t think that’s a place most people here want to go, regardless of our differences.

I don't think supporting No S ideas on a No S forum falls under the heading of cultism or fanaticism. It's more like common sense.

I've read the entire Everyday Systems websites and the paperback book and am certain neither mention challenging people's points of view as being contrary to No S ideals. Perhaps you can use said "common sense" to point out the part of No S that deems my original statement as being un-No-S-ish. I wager you can't though.

If people don't like the bluntness with which I countered the statement that's fine, but don't pretend it's some "un-No-S-ish" hooey.

[harmony]

BrightAngel wrote:

Each No S forum member brings his or her own personal experiences,
values, and opinions.
So far, the forum tone has been one of Tolerance and Understanding of our differences
Each one of us strives to voice our opinions
with as much kindness and open-mindness as we possess.

This is what really attracted me to this board when I first joined. This is really a diverse group of people, yet there is an incredible amount of tolerance for differences. Thank you to everyone that makes this possible. It is rare to find a place where you can feel safe to share ideas.

[Over43]

This topic has brought out some feeling in folks. I have realized there are 3 things I don't talk about, ever with anyone. 1) Politics, 2) Religion and 3) Dieting. (Except if it is on a specific board such as this being a "diet" board.) Best to all of you.

O43

[TunaFishKid]

BrightAngel wrote:

Each No S forum member brings his or her own personal experiences,
values, and opinions.
So far, the forum tone has been one of Tolerance and Understanding of our differences
Each one of us strives to voice our opinions
with as much kindness and open-mindness as we possess.

This is what really attracted me to this board when I first joined. This is really a diverse group of people, yet there is an incredible amount of tolerance for differences. Thank you to everyone that makes this possible. It is rare to find a place where you can feel safe to share ideas.

I like your username, Harmony! You and BrightAngel have both summed up the spirit of this forum quite well. Tolerance, understanding and kindness make this a safe place to share and that helps people more than anything else.

And I hear you about not knowing what to eat anymore. I've gotten to the point where I just completely tune out when anyone starts talking about "healthy eating". The best I can do is try to stay away from anything in a cellophane package that looks like it could survive a nuclear holocaust - like Twinkies or Pop-Tarts or Cheetos. If it comes from a factory it's not food to me.

[~reneew]

Whew! I think I'll leave this thread alone!

[kccc]

Whew! I think I'll leave this thread alone!

Very wise. I deeply regret starting it.

[Dolly]

I shouldn't regret it, honestly! You know, I reckon that this is an example of how the written word can be misinterpreted. I see it all the time at work with emails. It's often very difficult to really "get" what someone means when you don't have the luxury of being in the same place with someone and being able to see them and observe the non-verbal language as well as the verbal language used. As a Brit who has spent a few years now working in an international business environment, talking and doing business across the globe, I am thoroughly convinced that we English- speaking nations may well speak the same language....but only to a point! We are also nations divided by that common language. We have different ways of expressing ourselves and that can lead to misunderstandings, especially in these "cyber" settings. We are all here for roughly the same reason, but we don't really know each other, so inevitably these things do sometimes happen. I even come across it when I do business in different parts of the UK!
I hope that this doesn't put anyone off from expressing their views, as I for one get a lot out of the posts from the people involved in this thread- but it does serve as a bit of a ...warning is probably too strong a word....but maybe an example of how these things can escalate!
Hope to see everyone still actively participating and everyones' views taken on board even if we may not be too comfortable sometimes as to the language that's used, as I'm sure it's never meant to be offensive!
That's my take for what it's worth. I had a rubbish day today- I need you guys to give me hope that I can get my head round all this food stuff- and you do!
Cheers
S

[Bushranger]

I'm bowing out of all discussions here. Having a differing opinion is only welcome on this forum so long as you still endorse the touchy feely pity party mentality when it comes to accepting personal responsibility for failings. Anything I screw up, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR, end of story. Be that getting fat, letting my fitness go, or whatever it may be. Apparently most others aren't though. I simply can't go along with that weak born-to-lose mind set.

Many of you have been great to talk with, good luck to you all in whatever path life takes you.

[reinhard]

Hi guys,

Sorry I didn't catch this sooner -- darn vacation and subsequent email/bulletin board backlog.

Please, please let's be careful not to insult one another.

There's no reason we can't be civil when we disagree. This board has a pretty great track record in this regard and honestly I'd rather just take the board down than see that change.

As I wrote the last time something like this came up (a good year and change ago -- may we go as long till the next incident!):

Carbs vs. whatever is a not a subject about which I personally have strong feelings.

But I do have strong feelings about keeping things civil on this board.

So please, please, think twice before posting something aggressive.

And think twice more before taking offense. That's almost guaranteed to just escalate things further.

If you're burning with indignation and want to get it out somehow, feel free to private message or email me.

Thanks in advance for your tolerance and understanding,

Reinhard

[BrightAngel]

I'm bowing out of all discussions here. Having a differing opinion is only welcome on this forum so long as you still endorse the touchy feely pity party mentality when it comes to accepting personal responsibility for failings. Anything I screw up, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR, end of story. Be that getting fat, letting my fitness go, or whatever it may be. Apparently most others aren't though. I simply can't go along with that weak born-to-lose mind set.

Bushranger, I agree with you totally in that I AM RESPONSIBLE
FOR ALL of my own eating and fitness behavior.
Like everyone in this forum, I reserve the personal right to judge
(within the No S Guidelines...since this is the No S Diet Forum)
what it is best for me PERSONALLY to eat, and how best to exercise.
My choice, and my responsibility.
You, and everyone else here, also have that personal choice and responsibility.

The idea here is to for each of us to be able to share our personal choices
(and frequently the results of those choices),
in a safe and supportive environment.
I use the terms safe and supportive, not in a "weak born to lose" mindset,
but a mindset where, while I personally accept responsibility for judging my own behavior,
I exercise kindness by allowing others the freedom to do the same.
I hope you reconsider your decision to leave, because I have greatly enjoyed many of your posts,
and I think that in many ways we are very similiar.

[TunaFishKid]

Having a differing opinion is only welcome on this forum so long as you still endorse the touchy feely pity party mentality when it comes to accepting personal responsibility for failings.

Bushranger, it's not your opinions that have ruffled feathers, it's your manner of expressing them. You say you believe in being blunt. There's a difference between being bluntly honest and insulting people.

Being kind is a sign of strength, not weakness.