I'm trying to figure out the composition of a normal meal. I was off (and afraid of) carbs for so long, that I have little sense of how to include things like bread in a meal. I find I am much fuller after a meal if I include a piece of bread or a roll, leaving me with absolutely no desire to eat in between (a complete miracle). Bread is not an "S" food for me (that honor is reserved for nuts and candy).
How do others handle bread? If you go out to eat, do you have one piece of bread or one roll along with your lunch or dinner, or two, or none? Do you only eat it if it's part of a sandwich (something I never order)? The "one plate" rule doesn't help me here, cuz let's face it - you can always throw a piece of bread or two on top of a greek salad! I'm trying to find my way back to "normal" after so many decades of rigid boundries, but I don't want to fool myself into thinking that it's ok to add something I enjoy but have not been eating for so long.
The bread basket dilemma
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Hi jakmaw, don't have an answer for you, as I have just started this last week! but i understand your feelings of not knowing what's supposed to be right or normal.. one slice of bread, two? With butter, w/o?
I am in outpatient treatment for an eating disorder which I have had for 8+ years. I am doing heavy duty therapy clearing out the cobwebs of early traumas in my life (physical, emotional, sexual) and while that IS helping tremedously to release patterns of self abuse/hatred, I just feel sometimes I dont know how to relate to food. as in...How do normal people eat? This No-S thingy makes me feel normal. It really removes the emotional connection to food and makes it ( for me atleast) a pure energy/fuel thing .... dur which is what its supposed to be!
Sidebar- do find that I have to trust my body on this... am monitoring myself for hunger cues, satiety cues and find that I have been misreading signals. Now when I'm hungry, I know it. Its not a vague thing like standing in front of the fridge, thinking, am I hungry? Now I feel, hmmm either yes I am and if I have to think about it, then I'm not... I'm probably feeling some difficult emotions surfacing and want to distract myself with eating...
Was afraid of S days.. Im a recovering bulimic.. yikes... but with permission to binge, so to speak, I remained level headed and jesus I actually ENJOYED a hamburger and fries over the weekend. And wasnt remorseful, didnt run 12 miles to burn it off ( my preferred method of purging-over-exercising) in fact didnt run at all! maybe that sounds small potatoes, but I am very grateful to be able to have that experience. Recovery is so damn hard, its not like you can quit food like you do smoking or alcohol.
I am so happy I found this site/system! I am having a great day/week/life and this is a part of that joy.... freedom from the emotional trappings of food.
Thanks for listening!
Leenie
PS- The first day I did shovelglove I did the full 14 minutes listening to ALice in Chains, used an 8# sledgehammer and was sore for THREE days. Wow. What an eye opener!
I am in outpatient treatment for an eating disorder which I have had for 8+ years. I am doing heavy duty therapy clearing out the cobwebs of early traumas in my life (physical, emotional, sexual) and while that IS helping tremedously to release patterns of self abuse/hatred, I just feel sometimes I dont know how to relate to food. as in...How do normal people eat? This No-S thingy makes me feel normal. It really removes the emotional connection to food and makes it ( for me atleast) a pure energy/fuel thing .... dur which is what its supposed to be!
Sidebar- do find that I have to trust my body on this... am monitoring myself for hunger cues, satiety cues and find that I have been misreading signals. Now when I'm hungry, I know it. Its not a vague thing like standing in front of the fridge, thinking, am I hungry? Now I feel, hmmm either yes I am and if I have to think about it, then I'm not... I'm probably feeling some difficult emotions surfacing and want to distract myself with eating...
Was afraid of S days.. Im a recovering bulimic.. yikes... but with permission to binge, so to speak, I remained level headed and jesus I actually ENJOYED a hamburger and fries over the weekend. And wasnt remorseful, didnt run 12 miles to burn it off ( my preferred method of purging-over-exercising) in fact didnt run at all! maybe that sounds small potatoes, but I am very grateful to be able to have that experience. Recovery is so damn hard, its not like you can quit food like you do smoking or alcohol.
I am so happy I found this site/system! I am having a great day/week/life and this is a part of that joy.... freedom from the emotional trappings of food.
Thanks for listening!
Leenie
PS- The first day I did shovelglove I did the full 14 minutes listening to ALice in Chains, used an 8# sledgehammer and was sore for THREE days. Wow. What an eye opener!
Jakmaw: I think the definition of "normal" is a little like that supreme court Justice's definition of pornography: "I know it when I see it." Literally. Because you are limited to single plates, you can actually do effective eyeballing of quantity, which you don' t have a prayer at if you're snacking all day long. So, yes, it's possible to stack on enormous quantities on to a single plate, but it will be very obvious to you that you are eating a lot of food. If you are determined to sabotage yourself, you could continue to do this, but I think most of us would be a little shamed and try to reduce the vertical dimension a bit.
Not specific enough? How about this: if you have more than one vertical layer of food on your plate, you are almost certainly overeating. So if the bread fits on your plate without covering something else up, you're golden. Is it a disaster to pile on once in a while if the alternative is breaking the literal 3 meal/no seconds rule? No. Better bend the rules now and then a bit than break them. Should you do it regularly? No, you shouldn't. Will you, despite your better knowledge? I don't think so, unless you live by yourself in a cave. Because even if your eyeballing skills are non-existent, other people will let you know ("hungry, today, huh?"). When I started out I piled on some enormous firsts and, because of the looks I got, had to explain (somewhat absurdly) that this was part of my diet. But ah, the power of shame. How nice to have it working for you for a change! I very rarely find myself having to make such explanations anymore.
If you're snacking all day long shame doesn't work. You sneak around any observation. The irony is you wind up feeling plenty of shame, of course: not at your behavior (which deserves it), but at its results.
That being said, I think you will be surprised at how well you can eyeball. There will be some big meals the first week or so, but it'll be obvious that they are big. And the slight, mostly unconscious pressure of this obviousness will be enough to gradually whittle them down to size. With snacking and seconds, you are literally blind. You deprive yourself of this rapid, effective, painless natural defense.
Is it as accurate as counting calories? Probably not. But it's a heck of a lot easier, and it's accurate enough. Counting stuff is too hard. It doesn't work. Almost no one is able to do it for more than a few months. So who cares if it's theoretically more accurate? Especially when this is good enough?
Plates come in various sizes. Some plates of food you eat will contain more food than others. But calorically speaking, a single meal doesn't matter (habitually speaking, it does, which is why it's so important to be literally strict). Over the course of months, hundreds of single plate meals will be substantially less than hundreds more of the alternative, and that's really all you ought to care about.
People will point to phenomena such as supersizing as evidence that visual portion control doesn't work, but I disagree. Supersizing would never work without creative packaging. I challenge you to find a plate that would accommodate a supersize mcdonalds meal without some serious vertical stacking.
Didn't mean to go on such a tirade.... hope there's something helpful in here!
Not specific enough? How about this: if you have more than one vertical layer of food on your plate, you are almost certainly overeating. So if the bread fits on your plate without covering something else up, you're golden. Is it a disaster to pile on once in a while if the alternative is breaking the literal 3 meal/no seconds rule? No. Better bend the rules now and then a bit than break them. Should you do it regularly? No, you shouldn't. Will you, despite your better knowledge? I don't think so, unless you live by yourself in a cave. Because even if your eyeballing skills are non-existent, other people will let you know ("hungry, today, huh?"). When I started out I piled on some enormous firsts and, because of the looks I got, had to explain (somewhat absurdly) that this was part of my diet. But ah, the power of shame. How nice to have it working for you for a change! I very rarely find myself having to make such explanations anymore.
If you're snacking all day long shame doesn't work. You sneak around any observation. The irony is you wind up feeling plenty of shame, of course: not at your behavior (which deserves it), but at its results.
That being said, I think you will be surprised at how well you can eyeball. There will be some big meals the first week or so, but it'll be obvious that they are big. And the slight, mostly unconscious pressure of this obviousness will be enough to gradually whittle them down to size. With snacking and seconds, you are literally blind. You deprive yourself of this rapid, effective, painless natural defense.
Is it as accurate as counting calories? Probably not. But it's a heck of a lot easier, and it's accurate enough. Counting stuff is too hard. It doesn't work. Almost no one is able to do it for more than a few months. So who cares if it's theoretically more accurate? Especially when this is good enough?
Plates come in various sizes. Some plates of food you eat will contain more food than others. But calorically speaking, a single meal doesn't matter (habitually speaking, it does, which is why it's so important to be literally strict). Over the course of months, hundreds of single plate meals will be substantially less than hundreds more of the alternative, and that's really all you ought to care about.
People will point to phenomena such as supersizing as evidence that visual portion control doesn't work, but I disagree. Supersizing would never work without creative packaging. I challenge you to find a plate that would accommodate a supersize mcdonalds meal without some serious vertical stacking.
Didn't mean to go on such a tirade.... hope there's something helpful in here!
Welcome, leenie! I hope your experience bears out that "fundamentally elegance and sanity of this system" line on the home page. But do be aware, since you have medical issues around diet, that I have no medical training whatsover, and you're a bit of a pioneer here coming at it from your angle. I'm very hopeful it could work (and excited about the possibility), but do play it safe and run it by your doctor.
Shovelglove, too! I'm impressed. Remember: no more than 14 minutes! Only on N days!
Shovelglove, too! I'm impressed. Remember: no more than 14 minutes! Only on N days!
Great Post
Reinhard, your post should go into the No-S Hall of Fame, first ballot. You answered so many questions that people may have about No S, like the ramifications of 'vertical stacking' of food on your plate, for example.
Regading various plate sizes, most of the restaurants that I eat in anymore, whether for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, will actually serve you food on a PLATTER, not a plate. The type of dish which used to tote the entire entree to the table for a part of four. Now, its loaded to overflowing just for you! Don't you feel Special?
I rarely eat 'clean my plate' anymore, and I believe I am able to eyeball portions even on such gargantuan serving dishes. If I'm not mistaken, I thought a real 'dinner' plate was flat in the middle and flanged on the sides. All of your food was supposed to sit in that middle portion and not touch the sides of the flanged portion, and DEFINITELY not hang over the edge of the plate itself. It was considered rude to load a plate beyond that. Thats my 'eyeball' method in a nutshell: will my food fit in the middle of a dinner plate?
And you're right, fast food packaging hides the true size of a serving quite well. Some of the meals we order during occasional fast food feasts can't even serve one combo order in a single bag or box; you get one box for chicken strips, and another for the fries, when in reality either container would hold sufficient food for a meal.
Regading various plate sizes, most of the restaurants that I eat in anymore, whether for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, will actually serve you food on a PLATTER, not a plate. The type of dish which used to tote the entire entree to the table for a part of four. Now, its loaded to overflowing just for you! Don't you feel Special?
I rarely eat 'clean my plate' anymore, and I believe I am able to eyeball portions even on such gargantuan serving dishes. If I'm not mistaken, I thought a real 'dinner' plate was flat in the middle and flanged on the sides. All of your food was supposed to sit in that middle portion and not touch the sides of the flanged portion, and DEFINITELY not hang over the edge of the plate itself. It was considered rude to load a plate beyond that. Thats my 'eyeball' method in a nutshell: will my food fit in the middle of a dinner plate? And you're right, fast food packaging hides the true size of a serving quite well. Some of the meals we order during occasional fast food feasts can't even serve one combo order in a single bag or box; you get one box for chicken strips, and another for the fries, when in reality either container would hold sufficient food for a meal.
One should not be envious of someone who has prospered by unjust deeds. Nor should he disdain someone who has fallen while adhering to the path of righteousness. - Imagawa Sadayo (1325-1420)
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Jammin' Jan
- Posts: 2002
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 2:55 pm
- Location: The Village
Reinhard- thanks for the disclaimer. I have talked about this with my therapists ( I have several at Renfrew LOL) and they are cautiously optimistic. They would prefer I go by grazing, and eat ( or not eat) when I'm hungry ( or not hungry). I have tried that route many times and been quite frustrated. I feel that is too much freedom and the chances for relapse are high for that way. I need some structure... just not too much, I cant count calories or food journal - i think i will have to stop that here - they are triggers for me to restrict and overexercise. I looked at what I posted yesterday for my food and thought, is that too much food? THen, was like, grrrr! stop it girl! and closed up the computer.
So they were like, well, you know yourself best. And I do, like I know I need oatmeal or cereal or toast in the AM, no fruit for breakfast or i'm starving by 10:30. And like my puppy, its kind of nice to be on a schedule. Sort of automatic, no thoughts, no feelings involved, just sorta hmmm, its 12:30, lunchtime. Let's eat. I'm not waiting for lunch or dreaming about what I could be having, there are no forbidden foods, just delayed ones. Nice.
And yes, shovelglove too. I have some serious anger issues and journaling about my past just wasnt helping dissolve anything. The second time I SG'ed I picture various monsters from my childhood and beat the crap out of them. What a draining experience. I cried the entire time and when the timer went off I took a deep breath, I stopped crying took a shower and felt a bazillion times lighter. So I recommended this to someone in my group, and they looked at me like I told them to jump off the GWB! Only had to do angry SG a few more times, and now I pretend I'm in Little House on the Prarie. Quite a mental switch!
later guys
Leenie
So they were like, well, you know yourself best. And I do, like I know I need oatmeal or cereal or toast in the AM, no fruit for breakfast or i'm starving by 10:30. And like my puppy, its kind of nice to be on a schedule. Sort of automatic, no thoughts, no feelings involved, just sorta hmmm, its 12:30, lunchtime. Let's eat. I'm not waiting for lunch or dreaming about what I could be having, there are no forbidden foods, just delayed ones. Nice.
And yes, shovelglove too. I have some serious anger issues and journaling about my past just wasnt helping dissolve anything. The second time I SG'ed I picture various monsters from my childhood and beat the crap out of them. What a draining experience. I cried the entire time and when the timer went off I took a deep breath, I stopped crying took a shower and felt a bazillion times lighter. So I recommended this to someone in my group, and they looked at me like I told them to jump off the GWB! Only had to do angry SG a few more times, and now I pretend I'm in Little House on the Prarie. Quite a mental switch!
later guys
Leenie
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Samurai, Jan. It was late and I was way overtired and that can go either way. Maybe I'll stick some of it under the "What do you mean by seconds?" header on the home page.
Good point about the platters, Samurai. Again, while one could technically get away with this, I don't think one could do so without knowing that this is obviously a lot of food. I don't eat in such places a lot, so it's not much of an issue for me, but if I did, I'd be sure to always mentally project a virtual subplate on the platter. Maybe I should see if cafepress could sell a noSdiet branded compass?
Leenie, glad to hear you're keeping your doctors in the loop. And way to go clobbering those ghosts from your past! Little house on the prairie is a better place to be.
Good point about the platters, Samurai. Again, while one could technically get away with this, I don't think one could do so without knowing that this is obviously a lot of food. I don't eat in such places a lot, so it's not much of an issue for me, but if I did, I'd be sure to always mentally project a virtual subplate on the platter. Maybe I should see if cafepress could sell a noSdiet branded compass?
Leenie, glad to hear you're keeping your doctors in the loop. And way to go clobbering those ghosts from your past! Little house on the prairie is a better place to be.
You have all been so incredibly helpful. The reality is that I fool myself into thinking that everything could fit on the plate. Really the plate is a symbol for a moderate meal, and I know in my heart whether what's on the plate is moderate or not. Sometimes bread is a moderate addition to a moderate plate, and sometimes it is just one more excess added to a plate (or more likely platter, Samurai) that is holding way too much. Honesty is a virtue I posses in nearly all aspects of my life, but is scarce when it comes to food. Reinhard, vertical stacking is indeed another game we play, another opportunity for my evil twin to seduce me into fooling myself.
Tonight I decided to wise up and I did something for the first time in my life. I confess - I was a doggie bag virgin - had never done it before!!!! I ate only half of my restaurant meal and brought the rest home. It was honestly all I wanted, probably was less than a plate's worth, and I was adequately satisfied. Whoa! What power. Gonna try that again!
Tonight I decided to wise up and I did something for the first time in my life. I confess - I was a doggie bag virgin - had never done it before!!!! I ate only half of my restaurant meal and brought the rest home. It was honestly all I wanted, probably was less than a plate's worth, and I was adequately satisfied. Whoa! What power. Gonna try that again!
Wow!
Wow! What a lot of wisdom. You lot really blow me away.
I logged on because I had just been sitting in an hour-long meeting staring at a plate of really delicious-looking chocolate biscuits. But I was empowered by the simplicity of the NoS rules not to take one (which would have led to another and another and another...)
Great, but after the meeting the plate of biscuits were taken into the main office next door to my room to be shared with other staff, and I still knew where they were, and they were callling to me, like sirens...
So I hoped to get some strength from listening to you all. Boy did I ever! The call of the chocolate has been silenced. I am really happy. Hooray.
Thank you all so much.
Onwards and upwards...Julia
I logged on because I had just been sitting in an hour-long meeting staring at a plate of really delicious-looking chocolate biscuits. But I was empowered by the simplicity of the NoS rules not to take one (which would have led to another and another and another...)
Great, but after the meeting the plate of biscuits were taken into the main office next door to my room to be shared with other staff, and I still knew where they were, and they were callling to me, like sirens...
So I hoped to get some strength from listening to you all. Boy did I ever! The call of the chocolate has been silenced. I am really happy. Hooray.
Thank you all so much.
Onwards and upwards...Julia
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veggirl1964
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:03 am
- Location: California
I like the "no vertical stacking" rule. I am going to use that one to help my plates look more normal. I guess searching through old posts on a cloudy holiday was worth it after all!reinhard wrote:Not specific enough? How about this: if you have more than one vertical layer of food on your plate, you are almost certainly overeating.
wait a minute
So, does this mean a sandwich is vertical stacking? I hope not.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
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veggirl1964
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:03 am
- Location: California
Re: wait a minute
I wouldn't think so. I'm thinking it applies more to the times when I manage to pile my whole plate 3" high (only gravity prevented it from going higher those first couple of days).oolala53 wrote:So, does this mean a sandwich is vertical stacking? I hope not.
not gravity
Good one, veggirl! I love the sense of humor on this site. But regarding your teetering early plates of food, it was more your lack of engineering training, and thank God you were not more clever, neh? I'd hate to see what some students at MIT could heap their plates with--oh, the marshmallow cathedrals! But thank you for the vote of confidence about a sandwich. I actually don't eat them often, as I prefer to chew whole grains but for now a half a sandwich just looks too diet-y. Maybe I'll experiment a bit more with less after a 21-day streak.
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
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howfunisthat
- Posts: 605
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:35 am
- Location: New York
Re: wait a minute
oolala53 wrote:So, does this mean a sandwich is vertical stacking? I hope not.
I think a sandwich is a delightful example of stacking...but in a very good way! I would never have allowed myself a sandwich on so many diets I've been on....it just was something I longed for, but couldn't eat....unless it was on that thin, almost cracker-like bread and contained so few insides that you couldn't tell what kind it was! Isn't it such freedom to ENJOY food on this plan? Now that I think about it, I think I'll have a sandwich for lunch today..... 
...janie
Nothing worthwhile is ever easy...
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howfunisthat
- Posts: 605
- Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:35 am
- Location: New York
Leenie....
I just wanted to applaud you for the work you're doing on getting healthy both inside & out. Thank you for letting us all know what you're working though....I do hope you'll feel comfortable continuing to check in and share with us.
I've eaten emotionally all my life and this is the only plan for eating that has changed me from the inside out. Instead of putting MORE emphasis on food, this takes so much of the emphasis OFF and allows you to have control over food & eating instead of the other way around. I'm on Day 107, but I feel as if I can eat this way the rest of my life....'cause I'm learning to just plain be healthy.
I wish you the best of success, Leenie....check in with us as often as you can...you'll find a great deal of support & encouragement here...
janie
I just wanted to applaud you for the work you're doing on getting healthy both inside & out. Thank you for letting us all know what you're working though....I do hope you'll feel comfortable continuing to check in and share with us.
I've eaten emotionally all my life and this is the only plan for eating that has changed me from the inside out. Instead of putting MORE emphasis on food, this takes so much of the emphasis OFF and allows you to have control over food & eating instead of the other way around. I'm on Day 107, but I feel as if I can eat this way the rest of my life....'cause I'm learning to just plain be healthy.
I wish you the best of success, Leenie....check in with us as often as you can...you'll find a great deal of support & encouragement here...
janie
Nothing worthwhile is ever easy...
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Blithe Morning
- Posts: 1221
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:56 pm
- Location: South Dakota
)Re: not gravity
Was that a challenge?oolala53 wrote:I'd hate to see what some students at MIT could heap their plates with--oh, the marshmallow cathedrals!
Then again, I was in ocean engineering, so building a marshmallow oil platform in my soup would be more up my alley. But then, I never had a really good soup on campus, especially not one that would taste good with marshmallows in it...
Diet refugee, trying to get my head back on straight.
many foods to choose from
In your case, jessdr, make the platform from croutons or oyster crackers... There are other teams competing in this, though: one from Scripps, here in San Diego, where I am, and another from Woods Hole. One caveat: the winner stays fat.
But, I digress. I probably shouldn't be "weighing in" (I can't be the first) on this because so far I've gained weight, not lost, but regarding the bread dilemma, I totally enjoyed my 2"-square pizza roll and 2" diameter pancake with mostly-fruit preserves as part of my plate last night. I have never cut carbs out, but I'm probably eating a little bit greater ratio of them in my meals right now, especially dinner. I'll start to feel a little "catch" inwardly over this and then relax. It's okay! I might find later I don't want as much, but for now, I am going to enjoy every bite!
But, I digress. I probably shouldn't be "weighing in" (I can't be the first) on this because so far I've gained weight, not lost, but regarding the bread dilemma, I totally enjoyed my 2"-square pizza roll and 2" diameter pancake with mostly-fruit preserves as part of my plate last night. I have never cut carbs out, but I'm probably eating a little bit greater ratio of them in my meals right now, especially dinner. I'll start to feel a little "catch" inwardly over this and then relax. It's okay! I might find later I don't want as much, but for now, I am going to enjoy every bite!
Count plates, not calories. 11 years "during"
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)
Age 69
BMI Jan/10-30.8
1/12-26.8 3/13-24.9 +/- 8-lb. 3 yrs
9/17 22.8 (flux) 3/18 22.2
2 yrs flux 6/20 22
1/21-23
There is no S better than Vanilla No S (mods now as a senior citizen)