"Swan's Song" or a "plan D" for continui

[john]

I am back again, having fallen off the wagon repeatedly during the last week or so. The problem continues to be intense hunger between meals. I have been drinking plenty of the H2Orange to cut my hunger(Plan A). When that did not greatly reduce the gnawing hunger I introduced a fourth meal ( instant oatmeal + little bit of Fiber One + 3 cuts of cheese)-Plan B. I have read and do appreciate your helpful suggestions. Adding fruit to my meals "ain't going to happen" because I dislike fruits. Plan C,from your suggestions, really sounded promising so I tried unsuccessfully to find "Stomach Formula" manufactured by Lily of the Valley. I did purchase and try GNC's Aloe Vera Juice and when that did not work , Aloe Vera Gel from another Health Food Store. Again, it was like shooting peas at a tank.

More suggestions would be welcome. One earlier suggestion was adding more protein and a little fat to my three meals to stretch satiation. I could use some specific suggestions here for this meal supplementation convenient enough to be practical.

For now, I am just struggling and relying on sheer will power on days I remain in the green. It definitely is not getting easier to eliminate snacking.

[Kathleen]

For weeks, I settled for three meals which were not limited to one plate. I literally had an entire bowl of popcorn with my meals, and some of those meals were eye-popping in size, at least if I were to interpret my son's reaction to them. I stuck with no snacks, and gradually my need for large meals decreased, although I do have large meals at times.

I would focus on no snacks and allow more than one plateful at meals until you are ready to move to one plateful at meals.

For me, there was a feeling of intense hunger if I wasn't stuffed. I didn't have a sensation of pleasantly satisfied. I think this may come from years of always being on a diet, just off a diet, or about to go on a diet.

Kathleen

[wosnes]

John, can you tell us what (and how much) you are eating?

[apomerantz]

I feel your pain - - I just started the No S plan, but I've been dieting my whole adult life so I know the frustration with being hungry and how hard it is to stave off those hunger pangs.

Here's a few things that really seem to help me avoid hunger when I was determined not to eat. These aren't long term fixes, but I'm thinking that once we've really got the three meal per day habit in place and our bodies acclimate to that - - we might not need these fixes. But for now . . .

The number one tool that helps me avoid eating is coffee. I don't even like coffee, but the caffeine is absolutely an appetite depressant (diet pills are basically amphetamines . . .caffeine is a weak version). If you are normally a coffee drinker and are acclimated to caffeine this may not work. But if you aren't, it will help a LOT. I just drink it black and don't look at it as especially enjoyable . . .but it can stave off hunger for a couple of hours. If you really don't like it, you could even just do an expresso (so small), but I think the extra liquid of a real cup of coffee is also helpful.

Second, fat - - fat is very satiating. Is it the best thing for you, no. But while you are building your habit of only three meals and no snacks, you might want to make sure you've got some fat component in your meal. Nuts are probably the best. They have a healthier fat and also are very good for staving off hunger. They are very high calorie so you'll want to reduce the portion once you've got your habit "in place", but I think they would definitely help carry you over to the next meal. Peanut butter and cheese are also fat rich foods that work well. Red meat isn't the healthiest option, but you know carrying the extra weight is worse than eating the red meat, so if that is what satisfies you, then I think add it to your plate at the meal that is most problematic (i.e. breakfast if it is hard to make it to lunch). Treat yourself to some lean steak (filet) for example.

Another thought is that while I know juice is permissible on the No S plan, it might be making you hungrier. There's a lot of sugar in juice - - and when you just have sugar with nothing else really to speak of, then when your body has burned through that little sugar fix, it really craves more . . .I have struggled with sugar issues my whole life. If I eat a little, I want a LOT. I just started this plan, and I'm having little problem with the N days - - but I'm actually a bit scared about the S days because I know when I have that dish of ice cream, I will want more. I hope more doesn't turn into a whole pint!!! So maybe try tea or coffee instead of the juice. Even milk has a lot of sugars, but it is probably better than juice because at least it has protein and fat with it - - both of those components are more satiating! And they will slow the impact of the sugar..

If you post a typical eating day for you, maybe I can come up with some other ideas. I hope some of these help! It's so frustrating to be hungry . . .I mean a little hungry is okay, but a feeling of out of control hunger; that's very tough to resist.

[reinhard]

John,

I'm sorry you're having a hard time.

Here's are some basic strategies that could help with this:

1. Pile those three plates high. It might look bad, but better confront the excess head on than have it sneak by you in tiny invisible increments. And you'll gradually educate your appetite to go for longer stretches without eating.

2. add an extra mini meal (sounds like you're doing this already? it might be all you need)

3. proactively drink beverages, even caloric ones between meals (sounds like this didn't do the trick for you by itself, but may be helpful when combined with other elements). I second apomerantz's vote for coffee.

4. declare some limited reasonably healthy substance a "non food" that you're allowed to eat between meals. Definitely not orthodox, vanilla no-s, but "Too Solid Flesh" has had fantastic results doing this with cottage cheese.

If it bothers you that these strategies won't remove enough excess, relax. You don't have to do them permanently, just long enough to establish the basic mealing habit and reeducate your appetite enough to make vanilla no-s possible. You might also be surprised to discover that they do eliminate sufficient excess, and can be maintained indefinitely.

There are two other discussions in particular that you might want to have a look at:

No s "mods"

http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2527

Intelligent Dietary Defaults:

http://everydaysystems.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1732

I recently made both of these "sticky" so they stay at the top of the forum and are easy to find.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

Reinhard

[gratefuldeb67]

My guess is that you may not be fully hydrated.
Drink a whole glass of water before and if possible have some after your meals. It will help you digest better and stay hydrated.
The brain interprets dehydration in a similar way as hunger and it often feels that way. How much water do you drink?
Try upping it.
I'm sorry to say this, but I'd suggest finding at least a couple of fruits and vegetables that you do actually enjoy, because without whole foods like that, you just aren't eating healthily, and it really will help you feel more satisfied. What kind of snacks do you usually go for anyway?
I'm getting the feeling that your snacking habit is just "kicking and screaming" and acting out, because you are used to always giving in to it.
I also don't really get a picture of what your general eating is like at meals.
My third thought besides the water and the lack of fresh whole foods like fruit, is simply that you aren't having enough food at any one sitting.
Perhaps your being too skimpy at meals.
I'd personally never do this, because I've never needed to, but to keep yourself more full, you might want to buy some pectin fiber from a health food store and have a few glasses of that mixed with water.
I'd even suggest it to you anyway, as it's a decent form of dietary fiber (I think it's considered fiber??) and supposedly helps one to feel more full, and you probably aren't getting enough fiber if you don't eat fruit.
It's used as a thickener for shakes, etc, and natural..
Good luck John! You will get back on track and find what works for you.
Just keep at it.
No Swan Songs!
LOL
Debs

[john]

Again, I want to thank all of you for your response to my hunger problem. Several have asked me to describe what and how much I am eating. I will do so at the risk of boring you. I plead quilty of having the teutonic passion for routine. Here is how my day usually goes. You will note a considerable amount of fiber because I have noticed that this delays my hunger It is a double edged sword however because I have a mild form of IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome) & insoluble fiber hurts!
6AM-Coffee, juice, 1 cup mix of Bran Buds, GoLean,Raisens &Walnuts
with Soy Milk

9:30-Packet of Quaker Instant Oatmeal(Weight Control),tbsp Fiber One
cereal, and 3 Cracker Cuts of Cracker Barrell Cheddar Cheese

1PM-TV Dinner(Lean Cuisine etc), Activia Yogurt mixed with Applesauce,
Fiber One Bar. I drink 32 oz of H2Orange and 4 cups herb tea during
the day& more coffee . I am still quite hungry, especially in afternoon.

6PM-Wife cooks a good sized supper (meat, starch, green etc).

I think I will experiment with meat at b'fast,then later popcorn, coffee and/or nuts with milk to replace H2orange as much as the IBS permits.

Thanks again & if insomnia is your problem, reread my daily diet.

[apomerantz]

I love your sense of humor, John!! I'm not sure how tall you are, how much you weigh,, or what you do for your work, but I have some initial reactions without knowing these things . . .

I also wasn't sure if you were hoping to eliminate the 9:30 mini meal or not . . .I'm just going to assume that you are in hopes of getting rid of the snacking habit, but you can let us know!

First, I can totally SEE why you are hungry. You eat breakfast early, and it looks pretty light on calories to me for a big guy! I'm a five foot tall (just slightly into overweight BMI), and I eat considerably more for breakfast . . .I do exercise quite a bit, but even taking that into account, I guarantee that you burn more calories than I do simply by existing.

On the good side, you've got great fiber in there and your menu looks quite healthy except for the lack of fruit. BUT, I don't see much protein at all.

So my first thought is whether it is all possible to hold off breakfast until 7 am. I'm guessing the answer would be no - - that you have to go to work early.

Then, I think you need to amp up the breakfast AND the lunch. Both are pretty light on calories. Here's an idea or two. Eliminate the 9:30 meal. Take the cheese from that and make a sandwich to go with your cereal in the morning. Use some kind of lean protein on it as well (not sure what you like, but I'm picturing a nice melty turkey and cheese sandwich). I think for now, you should eat the whole sandwich and use a regular bread, but there are sandwich thins for cutting calories later or a 100 cal English muffin. But right now, you are just trying to get rid of the hunger, and I think you need to figure out what it takes to do that with three 1-plate meals. I don't think a cup of cereal = a plate!!

Then, at 1 pm, I think you have the same issue - - not enough calories or bulk to carry you over to dinner. Lean Cuisine's are yummy, but they are small for the number of calories. The Fiber One bar, I haven't had, but that sounds more like a sweet to me, and it might be causing cravings (high fiber or not). Check the sugar on that one. How does it compare to a bowl of cereal? If you want to stick with the Lean Cuisine, I'm thinking to add a cup of soup at the minimum plus 1/8th cup of nuts. But, if you can bear to part with the Lean Cuisine, I'm thinking more of a 6 inch sub from Subway with a lean protein (turkey or ham) and whatever vegetables you like/can bear, no mayo, but maybe a little bit of cheese (at least initially). Also, thinking aloud here - - I just wonder if while separately the yogurt and the Fiber One bar might be okay, together, they may just be too sugary. Sugar really creates cravings and the unmanageable hunger pangs. Vegetables would be a great add to your lunch. There are these AWESOME steam fresh vegetables that come in single serving packets. You could microwave a side of corn or peas or mixed broccoli and cauliflower. That will add some bulk to help tide you over as will the soup. If you like almonds, you could sprinkle those over the vegetables, or even better, use some pine nuts.

Dinner sounds good!!!

Bottom line, John, is that I think your menu sounds pretty restrictive to me at breakfast and lunch. More like what I would eat when I was DIETING. And about the same amount I (a tiny woman) would eat when I was dieting. I'm not sure what calories are coming with H2Orange (I'm not familiar with that), but I would have to guess that your caloric intake is not balanced between breakfast, lunch, and dinner - - so maybe you are eating a really big dinner? I really believe that if you get more calories into the earlier meals, and as importantly more volume into the lunch meal, that you'll have more satiety to carry you over to dinner.

I wish you ALL the luck in the world. Being hungry all the time is just the worst.

[wosnes]

One more question: Is there a time when you're NOT hungry?

[john]

I am a 64 year old man weighing in today at 178 lbs . My height is 5' 10" and my occupation is very sedentary. I code Medical Records at our local hospital so sit in front of a computer all day. I do a brief free weight workout( 20 min) at 6:30 AM before leaving for work. I also take a 15 minute walk outdoors before my lunch at 1 PM. You will notice that I pay attention to the clock because I have learned that my body does even if I try to ignore my watch.

I am not hungry at all upon awakening in the AM and am comfortable for 2-3 hours after breakfast and lunch, a bit longer after supper. I am most hungry around 9:30 AM and 4 PM. Oddly enough, occasionally I am rather hungry after one of my substantial suppers. I have not figured that one out yet. I guess it might have something to do with the carb/protein/fat proportions. I will have to do some journaling sometime.

I weighed 191 lbs before beginning the NoS Diet in December so you can see the lbs came off relatively quickly. I am certain that the primary reason for this loss was my eliminating the 2-3 snacks I have eaten for years. Ironically, the snacks have never been as helpful as expected. Eating sweets and seconds have really not been much of a problem.

If you succeed in helping me identify workable changes you may also be helping my thirty year old daughter. My gift to her tommorrow will be the second NoS Diet book I purchased last week. She is a brand new mother (October 15) and has picked up a considerable amount of weight.

[apomerantz]

Ooh, first, congrats on your weight loss so far. That's very awesome!!! You've lost quite a bit very quickly (I'm not surprised because that confirms to me that your calories are definitely on the low side - - particularly if you are in a sedentary job and are only working out modestly). Your body may be sending out some stronger hunger signals as it moves below it's natural setpoint. I think (and this is ONLY based on my personal experience) that when your body weight starts to get lower than your usual weight, sometimes the hunger signals really intesify. Maybe that's happening to you.

Also, our BMIs are almost exactly the same !!

Based on your latest info, I thought of maybe a few more things.

You wake up and aren't hungry, but it sounds like you are eating first and THEN doing your free weights. How about flipping those two things? That would push your breakfast later, and I'm thinking that if you add some food on there, that you have a great shot of making it until lunch time.

Also, I'm thinking that maybe you might want to walk a little longer at lunchtime, but you are probably so hungry and so ready to eat that walking longer is very unappealing. What if you flipped your walk and lunch? I know that would move lunch farther away from dinner (bad), but maybe you'd get some more movement in and feel more comfortable with adding some calories at lunchtime.

4 pm is my hardest time too! The time where I feel I have the least control. That's when I turn to coffee, but it sounds like you are already doing that, and it isn't helping much. You might just have to will your way through until dinner, but I do think modifying your lunch would help a lot. I just think it is a question of adding some more calories and protein. And maybe reduce the sugar a little by doing yogurt and Fiber One bars on alternating days . . .

I think that's all the "brilliant" suggestions I have! Your grandbaby's birthday is just a couple of days after mine. I hope your daughter enjoys the no S plan. I wish I had known about it after I had a baby. I did Jenny Craig - - but at 28 years old, I lost the weight in a snap. Now, at 42, it's so much harder . . .

Keep on truckin' John. You are very close to that healthy BMI range!!

[wosnes]

Have you ever considered that your hunger (and possibly even the IBS) is related to a food sensitivity or intolerance? This is not an uncommon, but often overlooked, occurrence. I'd look at grains, soy, dairy, nuts and even coffee. Also food additives and colorings.

Soy is problematic for me. Not only do I experience a host of digestive discomforts (cramping, gas, bloating, etc), I'm extremely hungry when I consume it. The symptoms last for at least a day, usually 2-3 days, after I consume soy in any form. Juice is also somewhat of a problem for me, especially orange juice (but not oranges).

You're right about foods higher in fiber keeping you from feeling hungry.

I tend to agree with apomerantz: I don't think you're eating enough food. I tend to disagree that the hunger is coming from the proportions of carbs/fat/protein. I mostly agree with Dr. Fuhrman: " True hunger is gleefully satisfied by almost any wholesome natural food. No special food is craved or needed. The food also tastes better when the body is physiologically ready to digest and assimilate, when hunger is present." No special balance of foods, either.

You say you're not hungry when you get up in the morning, but you are later, about 9:30. I've found that eating when I'm not hungry (because I think I should) triggers hunger -- and I'm hungry all day after that. It's like I can't get enough food.

Why not wait until 9:30 to eat? Maybe eat more and eat old-fashioned or steel-cut oats instead of instant oats. Ditch the Lean Cuisine and bring leftovers from home or have soup and a sandwich for lunch.

[apomerantz]

I think wosnes is suggesting a great strategy - - eating breakfast in the 9:30 time slot (why didn't I think of that???).

Also, I do agree that real, whole foods are more satiating. So if you can ditch the Lean Cuisines and the Fiber One bar in favor of more real foods, I do think that will help. Especially if you eat more of them!!

Also, steel cut oats are SO GOOD, but they are pain to prepare. If you decide you love them and have the $$, buy a fuzzy logic rice maker. You can set it for any time, and your steel cut oats will be all done at that time. They are so so good and very filling. One of my favorite breakfasts .

[john]

Thank you new friends! I will wait about a week for any further suggestions then make my plan and implement it. I will report progress or lack of it. If some of these strategies work for me perhaps they will help one or two others.

Thanks again!

[apomerantz]

Can't wait to hear how it goes, John! I hope you can find what works for you . You've really been wonderfully successful so far so I have little doubt you'll find a way.