My dilemma: I don't work, have no children and few responsibilities. No complaints about any of that, but it means that there is never any reason to do anything at a particular time. I never know when I'll go to sleep or when I'll wake up; I never know when I'll eat. Sometimes I'm upside-down, sleeping during the day and up at night.
My main problem here is insomnia, plus the fact that I don't HAVE to do anything or accommodate anyone.
Can/should No-S be done in this framework, spacing my three meals over whatever hours I'm awake in, or should/must I squeeze myself into normalcy?
In a nutshell, is there intrinsic value in a regular routine - eating, sleeping, etc. according to a schedule? If so, should this be 7 days a week?
Another question: Are three meals the only way to go, or can one eat twice only?
Thanks for any help offered. I'm keen to get started.
Judy
Routine and meal times
Moderators: Soprano, automatedeating
Hi Judy,
To me, one of the big pluses of this plan is that it fits so nicely into any life. I would say just plan your three meals, evenly spaced whenever you have your waking hours. Then again, if you would find a more steady routine better, you can do that too.
There is somebody on this board who is doing two meals a day, and it works for him, but I would suggest starting with three and see how that feels. You can always tweak things to better suit yourself down the line.
As far as the insomnia....welcome to my world. And here is where I tweaked the program to work for me. I have a very small snack...a slice of bread and hummos, something left over from dinner, a baked apple....and that helps me sleep better. Many feel an empty stomach is better for them to sleep on.
Trial and error and trial again, but I would recommend sticking as close to the original plan as possible until you get a "groove" going.
As you see, I was a teenager in the 60's!
Groovily yours,
Peetie
To me, one of the big pluses of this plan is that it fits so nicely into any life. I would say just plan your three meals, evenly spaced whenever you have your waking hours. Then again, if you would find a more steady routine better, you can do that too.
There is somebody on this board who is doing two meals a day, and it works for him, but I would suggest starting with three and see how that feels. You can always tweak things to better suit yourself down the line.
As far as the insomnia....welcome to my world. And here is where I tweaked the program to work for me. I have a very small snack...a slice of bread and hummos, something left over from dinner, a baked apple....and that helps me sleep better. Many feel an empty stomach is better for them to sleep on.
Trial and error and trial again, but I would recommend sticking as close to the original plan as possible until you get a "groove" going.
As you see, I was a teenager in the 60's!
Groovily yours,
Peetie
Judy,
I think there is value in routine, both for diet and many other things. For example, I think, knowing almost nothing about the subject, that it might help with your insomnia. Among other things, routine relieves you of having to make lots of trifling decisions. And because you can plan out how to space meals up front, you're also less likely to eat yourself into an impossibly long stretch of meallessness.
That being said, there are only so many life altering changes you can make in a day. The no-s rules don't require precise timing. You can figure that out later.
Most people here eat 3 meals, but some eat 2 and some even eat 4. I'd recommend giving the default 3 a good, solid try first.
Best wishes to you,
Reinhard
I think there is value in routine, both for diet and many other things. For example, I think, knowing almost nothing about the subject, that it might help with your insomnia. Among other things, routine relieves you of having to make lots of trifling decisions. And because you can plan out how to space meals up front, you're also less likely to eat yourself into an impossibly long stretch of meallessness.
That being said, there are only so many life altering changes you can make in a day. The no-s rules don't require precise timing. You can figure that out later.
Most people here eat 3 meals, but some eat 2 and some even eat 4. I'd recommend giving the default 3 a good, solid try first.
Best wishes to you,
Reinhard
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gratefuldeb67
- Posts: 6256
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:26 pm
- Location: Great Neck, NY
Reinhard, I believe very strongly, that you are correct on this count...Judy,
I think there is value in routine, both for diet and many other things. For example, I think, knowing almost nothing about the subject, that it might help with your insomnia
Your intuition is excellent and your advice is excellent!!
I think insomnia has to do a lot, with a lack of routine...
Judy, I'd suggest that you create some kind of daily routine/rituals, to help you get into a day/night cycle...
I also recommend three or four meals a day...
Yes Freakwitch has been very successful for a while and I hope he continues to, with two meals, but I think with all that time, and not a lot of distraction, heck, you might as well use your three meals to divide up the day, and then they won't have to be heaping portions to make you feel satisfied..
Good luck!!
Peace,
DebJudy, I hope routine helps YOUR insomnia, but it hasn't done a thing for mine. I have the most routine life on the planet, but, for me, the insomnia seems more like a menopausal "gift". There is a small percentage of insomniacs that nothing seems to make a difference with....believe me, I've tried every natural and unnatural remedy on the planet. And, unfortunately, the only thing I have had success with are meds that you can't take nightly cause they are habit forming. Frustrating as all get out!
But routine for the food....I DO find that very helpful. Gives me less to think about regarding it, and the less time I spend mentally and physically with my food obsession, the better.
Peetie
But routine for the food....I DO find that very helpful. Gives me less to think about regarding it, and the less time I spend mentally and physically with my food obsession, the better.
Peetie
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planner lady
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:40 am
- Location: Kansas City, MO
- Contact:
Peetie, I have insomnia, too. I could have written your post myself -- exactly same situation. I read about a lady who discovered she was a light sleeper and started wearing ear plugs. She could sleep! I tried them because I am definitely a light sleeper (at times -- other times I sleep through everything). I tried the ear plugs but they didn't work for me. I've taken melatonin for a while and that helps a little, sometimes. I stopped for a while because I'd read that you shouldn't take it for a long time. I'd been taking it for about three years. I haven't taken it for a year but started again the other night. So far no improvement. Sometimes I get weary of always being so tired.
Have you noticed that it's harder to eat right and exercise after the especially bad nights? My willpower is weaker on those days because I just don't care. It's pretty hard to fight apathy.
Patty
Have you noticed that it's harder to eat right and exercise after the especially bad nights? My willpower is weaker on those days because I just don't care. It's pretty hard to fight apathy.
Patty
Patty,
I wrote you a nice little insomnia rant that I tried to send you in your private message box, but can't get it to leave my outbox. If you'd like, email me in my private box here on the board and maybe I can send a response back to you and make it work.
We don't want to put everyone to sleep on this board by talking about this too much.
Peetie
I wrote you a nice little insomnia rant that I tried to send you in your private message box, but can't get it to leave my outbox. If you'd like, email me in my private box here on the board and maybe I can send a response back to you and make it work.
We don't want to put everyone to sleep on this board by talking about this too much.
Peetie
Yes, I've been doing 2 platefuls of food per N-day for several months now. I don't necessarily recommend it or discourage it for anyone; it's simply what works for me.
A few reasons why it works for me: a huge part of my weight gain came from binge eating at night. So I had to get that under control. I instituted a no-food-after-9pm rule to help with that.
I have not eaten breakfast much for as long as I can remember. I thought perhaps it was because my stomach was still full from the previous night's binge. So when I cut out bingeing, I expected to wake up ravenous each morning. To my surprise, that never really happened. I usually have my first meal between 11 and 1, and my dinner is usually around 6 or 7.
I know conventional wisdom says we should eat in the morning to stoke our metabolism, but I just don't see the point in eating when I'm not hungry.
My system has adapted nicely to this routine. I still get hungry at night regularly, 3 or 4 months into it. Right now, at nearly 2am, I could easily eat a meal. But I'm about to go to sleep, and when I wake up tomorrow I won't be hungry. I don't understand how I can go to bed hungry and not wake up hungry, but I do.
I still have some weight to lose, so 2 platefuls/day will just help me lose it faster than 3/day. I've considered the idea that when my body weight stabilizes, moving to 3 meals/day. But I have a lot of time between now and then, I still have dozens of pounds to lose.
What I would recommend to you is to not allow yourself to eat more than 3 meals in any given 24-hour period, though this could get overcomplicated. For example, if you eat a meal at 7pm, at 1am, and then again at 9am, don't let yourself eat the next meal until 7pm rolls around. But really, I think this is a less important issue; getting rid of sweets, snacks, and seconds is key in my view. Do that, and average 2-3 meals per day, and I think you'll be fine.
A few reasons why it works for me: a huge part of my weight gain came from binge eating at night. So I had to get that under control. I instituted a no-food-after-9pm rule to help with that.
I have not eaten breakfast much for as long as I can remember. I thought perhaps it was because my stomach was still full from the previous night's binge. So when I cut out bingeing, I expected to wake up ravenous each morning. To my surprise, that never really happened. I usually have my first meal between 11 and 1, and my dinner is usually around 6 or 7.
I know conventional wisdom says we should eat in the morning to stoke our metabolism, but I just don't see the point in eating when I'm not hungry.
My system has adapted nicely to this routine. I still get hungry at night regularly, 3 or 4 months into it. Right now, at nearly 2am, I could easily eat a meal. But I'm about to go to sleep, and when I wake up tomorrow I won't be hungry. I don't understand how I can go to bed hungry and not wake up hungry, but I do.
I still have some weight to lose, so 2 platefuls/day will just help me lose it faster than 3/day. I've considered the idea that when my body weight stabilizes, moving to 3 meals/day. But I have a lot of time between now and then, I still have dozens of pounds to lose.
What I would recommend to you is to not allow yourself to eat more than 3 meals in any given 24-hour period, though this could get overcomplicated. For example, if you eat a meal at 7pm, at 1am, and then again at 9am, don't let yourself eat the next meal until 7pm rolls around. But really, I think this is a less important issue; getting rid of sweets, snacks, and seconds is key in my view. Do that, and average 2-3 meals per day, and I think you'll be fine.
JWL[.|@]Freakwitch[.]net
I suppose I'll toss my two cents in...
Regarding insomnia, I have found that there appear to be two groups of people who suffer from this ailment (there may be other groups, but this is simply what I have observed in life): There are those who suffer from this because of lifestyle issues and a lack of routine or activity and even possibly for emotional reasons, and those that suffer from insomnia due to some type of chemical, biological, or medical reasons.
The groups and reasons can overlap a bit, but generally I've noticed that people who fall into the first category can generally overcome this problem with relative ease if they can simply manage to find a routine that works for them, including achieving enough physical activity throughout the day, enjoying a "full" day, and a somewhat scheduled day. I suffered from a variety of sleep issues including insomnia all throughout high school, college, and recently into my adult and working life. I have found that NoS was a great addition to my routine and helped me get myself even more in control. This combined with the added physical exercise (including Urban Rangering and Shovelglove, among other things) has caused me to be able to actually lay down at night and fall asleep without much trouble, and this is the first time I can remember doing that in a very, very long time. I strongly suggest that whether or not you have a reason to wake up in the morning you set an alarm and get up anyway. This is not necessary 7 days a week, but you'll probably find pretty quickly that when you do it on weekdays you will end up getting up around that time on weekends whether you like it or not. This is a good first step because by getting up early enough, getting enough exercise throughout the day, and routinely attempting to go to bed at around the same time at night your body will begin to adapt to this routine and you will be able to fall asleep easier.
Also, it probably goes without saying, avoid any distractions or distracting activity in your bedroom at other times of the day and when you lay down to sleep. Your bed should only be used for 2 activities... one of those is sleeping, I think we all know what the other one is, but the point is that you should avoid watching TV in bed, reading (unless it helps you sleep), and anything else that is not sleep related as these will become associated with waking activities in bed, and your body will have more trouble determining what the bed is really for. You have to train your brain to know that when you get in bed, it's time for sleep, NOT time for TV or any other form of activity (other than the obvious). This seems stupid, and I always thought it was dumb when I was younger and my parents and health teachers told me to do it, but I have to admit that they were right.
For the other group of insomniacs, and I know Peetie falls into this category, these suggestions are not particularly helpful, and I am truly sorry. I am not a doctor, and even if I was I'm not sure there are any terribly great answers to these types of insomniac issues. Having struggled with these problems (though routine has helped me deal with them) I know how frustrating not being able to sleep can be, and I really do wish you the best of luck finding what works for you.
One last thing, I just wanted to mention that I have the same issues as Freakwitch: For whatever reason I am hungry late at night much of the time (probably due to a long time spent eating late in the evening) but whether I go to bed hungry or full, I never wake up hungry, and I usually don't have my first meal til around 10 or 11am at the earliest. Also, like Freakwitch, I have been able to get a handle on this problem and simply not eat late at night because I know I will wake up and feel fine... This has helped somewhat, and I expect the longer I stick with it, the easier it will get.
Regarding insomnia, I have found that there appear to be two groups of people who suffer from this ailment (there may be other groups, but this is simply what I have observed in life): There are those who suffer from this because of lifestyle issues and a lack of routine or activity and even possibly for emotional reasons, and those that suffer from insomnia due to some type of chemical, biological, or medical reasons.
The groups and reasons can overlap a bit, but generally I've noticed that people who fall into the first category can generally overcome this problem with relative ease if they can simply manage to find a routine that works for them, including achieving enough physical activity throughout the day, enjoying a "full" day, and a somewhat scheduled day. I suffered from a variety of sleep issues including insomnia all throughout high school, college, and recently into my adult and working life. I have found that NoS was a great addition to my routine and helped me get myself even more in control. This combined with the added physical exercise (including Urban Rangering and Shovelglove, among other things) has caused me to be able to actually lay down at night and fall asleep without much trouble, and this is the first time I can remember doing that in a very, very long time. I strongly suggest that whether or not you have a reason to wake up in the morning you set an alarm and get up anyway. This is not necessary 7 days a week, but you'll probably find pretty quickly that when you do it on weekdays you will end up getting up around that time on weekends whether you like it or not. This is a good first step because by getting up early enough, getting enough exercise throughout the day, and routinely attempting to go to bed at around the same time at night your body will begin to adapt to this routine and you will be able to fall asleep easier.
Also, it probably goes without saying, avoid any distractions or distracting activity in your bedroom at other times of the day and when you lay down to sleep. Your bed should only be used for 2 activities... one of those is sleeping, I think we all know what the other one is, but the point is that you should avoid watching TV in bed, reading (unless it helps you sleep), and anything else that is not sleep related as these will become associated with waking activities in bed, and your body will have more trouble determining what the bed is really for. You have to train your brain to know that when you get in bed, it's time for sleep, NOT time for TV or any other form of activity (other than the obvious). This seems stupid, and I always thought it was dumb when I was younger and my parents and health teachers told me to do it, but I have to admit that they were right.
For the other group of insomniacs, and I know Peetie falls into this category, these suggestions are not particularly helpful, and I am truly sorry. I am not a doctor, and even if I was I'm not sure there are any terribly great answers to these types of insomniac issues. Having struggled with these problems (though routine has helped me deal with them) I know how frustrating not being able to sleep can be, and I really do wish you the best of luck finding what works for you.
One last thing, I just wanted to mention that I have the same issues as Freakwitch: For whatever reason I am hungry late at night much of the time (probably due to a long time spent eating late in the evening) but whether I go to bed hungry or full, I never wake up hungry, and I usually don't have my first meal til around 10 or 11am at the earliest. Also, like Freakwitch, I have been able to get a handle on this problem and simply not eat late at night because I know I will wake up and feel fine... This has helped somewhat, and I expect the longer I stick with it, the easier it will get.
Thanks Azathoth for both your sympathy and suggestions. I could probably write my own book at this point on insomnia with all I've gleaned through the years, but I remain one of those stubborn ones who defy all logic. I did read recently that there is a subgroup of insomniacs for who the insomnia itself is a medical condition, not one precipitated by a medical condition.
In the meantime, atleast I have routine and success with the eating. And that is huge.
By the way, your Avatar kind of scared me when you first posted! I was afraid I might have nightmares from it, but I'd have to sleep to do that, so I'm safe. Now that I see what a kind soul you are, the Avatar has softened for me and looks downright cute!
Peetie
In the meantime, atleast I have routine and success with the eating. And that is huge.
By the way, your Avatar kind of scared me when you first posted! I was afraid I might have nightmares from it, but I'd have to sleep to do that, so I'm safe. Now that I see what a kind soul you are, the Avatar has softened for me and looks downright cute!
Peetie
Thanks for the input, Azathoth. I have read up a bit on sleeping disorders, and they recommend exactly what you say, with the exception that they say to do it seven days a week. I have tried it, and it has helped, but then what happens is I have a night I can't sleep at the scheduled time or anywhere near, and getting up at the scheduled time means making do with maybe 1 - 3 hours of sleep. Problem here is that I then fall asleep in the afternoon, dozing off in my chair, which means I am again not tired at night, etc. I can't seem to think myself out of this one.
I have had sleep problems all my life, from early childhood, but I am inclined to agree with you that it's a lifestyle issue, not biochemical. I was brought up completely without rules. We never had meals as a family - everyone just opened the fridge and took whatever they wanted, whenever. There was no bedtime, and I didn't even have to go to school if I didn't feel like it. No discipline was imposed and none was expected. In some ways, this was beneficial, as I was unrestrained and unfettered, free to explore and create. Everything was possible, and this view of life has served me well in many areas, albeit not in self-care.
As for bedroom activity, I DO watch TV in the bedroom, but not in bed. My chair and TV are in there, and if I'm in bed, it's to sleep. More accurately, TRY to sleep. Sleep disorder clinics recommend that you get up if you haven't fallen asleep in 10 - 20 minutes, and try again later.
It's 10 am now, and I haven't slept at all. I've been up for close to 24 hours, and am not the tiniest bit sleepy. One good thing - once I fall asleep, I'm good for a solid eight hours. So I DO get as much sleep as my body needs, it's just at very erratic times.
Judith
I have had sleep problems all my life, from early childhood, but I am inclined to agree with you that it's a lifestyle issue, not biochemical. I was brought up completely without rules. We never had meals as a family - everyone just opened the fridge and took whatever they wanted, whenever. There was no bedtime, and I didn't even have to go to school if I didn't feel like it. No discipline was imposed and none was expected. In some ways, this was beneficial, as I was unrestrained and unfettered, free to explore and create. Everything was possible, and this view of life has served me well in many areas, albeit not in self-care.
As for bedroom activity, I DO watch TV in the bedroom, but not in bed. My chair and TV are in there, and if I'm in bed, it's to sleep. More accurately, TRY to sleep. Sleep disorder clinics recommend that you get up if you haven't fallen asleep in 10 - 20 minutes, and try again later.
It's 10 am now, and I haven't slept at all. I've been up for close to 24 hours, and am not the tiniest bit sleepy. One good thing - once I fall asleep, I'm good for a solid eight hours. So I DO get as much sleep as my body needs, it's just at very erratic times.
Judith
Thank you very much for the kind words, Peetie. I certainly did not mean to scare anyone... it's just a picture I grabbed somewhere off the internet that for some reason seemed to work for me.
Having a successful routine has it's benefits anyway, as I'm sure you have noticed. While it may not be the cure for insomnia for everyone, at least you can count it among your successes. Good luck with everything, and for whatever it's worth to you or anyone else, I know how troubling and unbelievably frustrating insomnia can be. Concentrate on the success you achieve and don't bother spending much time dwelling on any failures... this is the life we were given and we need to get what we can out of it.
Having a successful routine has it's benefits anyway, as I'm sure you have noticed. While it may not be the cure for insomnia for everyone, at least you can count it among your successes. Good luck with everything, and for whatever it's worth to you or anyone else, I know how troubling and unbelievably frustrating insomnia can be. Concentrate on the success you achieve and don't bother spending much time dwelling on any failures... this is the life we were given and we need to get what we can out of it.