No Seconds: waste and excess

[Graham]

Hi all, me again with another knotty "driving me insane" "rules" thing.

So, it's breakfast, I'm late eating and very hungry: I decide what to have - it's going to be poached eggs on beans on toast. I have my plate, my eggs, my beans - only I have this unusually small loaf of bread and I'm thinking - "do I want 3 slices of toast or four?" And why does that matter? Only because of the "No seconds" rule - I'm not wanting to break it - and that pushes me, sometimes, to overeat! Hardly what the rule is intended to do.

Here's how it works: to avoid breaking the rule on seconds AND avoid feeling hungry later, I guess "what is the MOST I'm likely to want?" and THAT is how much I put on my plate - the MAX. Unfortunately I also have the tendency, whether trained or instinctive, to clear my plate, no matter how painful it may be to force myself to do it - the result being I overeat.

Today was different: knowing about all the foregoing I thought "if I know I could fit all 4 pieces of toast on my plate, but only actually put 3 on my plate, then is it still breaking the rules if I eat the 3, with the beans and the eggs and review my decision at that point? It could be seen as an intelligent precaution - or it could be seen as breaking the "no seconds" rule and that is what's bugging me - because I DID have the 4th slice of toast when I realised I actually wanted/needed it.

If I'd gone ahead and put 4 slices on from the start, there would have been no rule-breaking but I would have then risked doing something I really don't like doing - making more food than I actually need and either overeating or being left with something so unappetising (leftover toast) that it might end up being wasted.

Any comments on this? Or is it me? Am I the only crazy person here (let me down gently)

Graham

[sophiasapientia]

I think the overloading of plates is very common when one is starting No S.

For myself, I reached a point where I had a pretty good idea of how much food I need to get through from meal to meal. Consistency helps. I generally eat meals at around the same time, especially during the week, and I have some default meals that I eat frequently for breakfast and lunch so I don't need to think much about what, when or how much I'm eating. If I know my next meal is going to be a lot later or if I'm going to be getting in a lot more activity than usual, I'll adjust what I'm eating accordingly. I figure the worst thing that can happen is that I'll get a little hungry -- not a bad thing when you are trying to lose weight, right?

[fb22]

Hi all, me again with another knotty "driving me insane" "rules" thing.

So, it's breakfast, I'm late eating and very hungry: I decide what to have - it's going to be poached eggs on beans on toast. I have my plate, my eggs, my beans - only I have this unusually small loaf of bread and I'm thinking - "do I want 3 slices of toast or four?" And why does that matter? Only because of the "No seconds" rule - I'm not wanting to break it - and that pushes me, sometimes, to overeat! Hardly what the rule is intended to do.

Hiya,

I think you're trying to optimize too much at once and looking for all guidance outside of yourself.

Don't ask me where, but I think that Reinhart writes somewhere that putting too much on your plate is a) inevitable, and b) instructive. You get to see what you overeat, and therefore cut down.

In a meal, you have to nail exactly how much you need to get to the next meal without feeling hungry, but without excess. You're either going to eat too much or too little until you learn what you need and can get the amount right within a narrow margin of error. Given that you are going to either a) eat too much or b) go hungry, I'd err on the side of eating too much. That's to avoid discomfort and also the temptation of snacking. I think also that if you ate a little too much at breakfast, lunch will tend to be smaller too.

Cheers!

-Frank

[kccc]

I think you're trying to optimize too much at once and looking for all guidance outside of yourself.

Frank, what a great quote! I "try to optimize too much at once" in so many areas of my life! Learning to focus on "just the big stuff, at least for now" is a really good skill to develop... which I've been working on. Appreciate the succinct summary of the issue.

[Starla]

This is all part of the learning process; as the others said, you need to learn how much is the right amount.

I, however, would tend to err on the side of "too little." To me hunger before meals is a good thing - it's what used to tell us it's time to eat. I try to eat meals that will leave me hungry, not ravenous, for my next meal. I tend to eat exactly the same thing for breakfast and lunch on my N days, so it's become very easy.

And finally, I used to be a member of the clean plate club myself, and here's one mental adjustment that's helped me: I tell myself that when I'm faced with food I don't need and don't really want, that food is going to be thrown away. The only choice I have to make is whether I'm going to throw it away inside my body or outside my body. The idea of throwing food away inside my body just grosses me out and makes it a lot easier to dump excess in the trash.

[sheepish]

I sometimes have this issue. What I do is I err on the side of too little and, then, if I am genuinely hungry still, I allow myself to have something extra that would have fit on my plate. This only works because I have reasonably good self awareness - I know when I'm full and just want another bite or two because it tasted good and I don't allow myself that kind of second.

As I've mentioned on here before, the one plate thing isn't really doable for me anyway because I often eat food from cuisines that just don't lend themselves to that (Indian, Middle Eastern, sometimes tapas) so I tend to be doing a certain amount of approximation about the "no seconds" anyway.

[Clarica]

for me, I'd put the toast on my plate. Breakfast, for me, is a freebie, but it's not that much of a reward because I don't really relish eating in the morning.

But I have found that if I don't make sure to stuff myself at breakfast, I am so much more likely to want to graze in the evening.

[oolala53]

I would toast only the bread I knew I would want for sure, but put the fourth piece of bread on my plate. Then, if I needed it, I'd toast it then, or put it back if I didn't. I live alone, so I'll often keep even small amounts of leftovers and sometimes throw them all in broth for soup--even bread. As I've said before, I also compost leftovers in my yard, so I rarely feel food goes to waste, though it can be very expensive compost!

I also have little bowls that are made for chefs to keep cut up items in. I sometimes put my food items in those and put them on the plate. Then I keep that food if I don't finish it. But I tend to finish my food.

Some thing is going to have to give. Moderation is learning to eat what you need. You've been upset about being hungry but you also say you will clean your plate even if it is painful. No S is not meant to be a plan where you eat what's on your plate no matter what. No one said you can't eat less. No S about using the plate as a metric and learning about limits from it with feedback from your body. Yes, we've all eaten too much because of various cues. That's why we're here! We've got to learn to let go of those cues and accept new ones.

[leafy_greens]

Graham, you are likely to overdo it at first with piling up your plates, but this is to be expected and normal. The most important step is getting the habit of planned meal times. Once you get this under control, you can tinker with how much food on a plate will be satisfying and enough. Punishing yourself is a waste of time. You ate a lot but you won't be eating for 5-6 hours. Forgive yourself and move on.

[Graham]

For all the detail I gave originally, I omitted to say part of why the rule compliance mattters so much to me is that I'm using HabitCal as a means of feedback and motivation.

I wanted to know if I had to count my 4th piece of toast as seconds and thus Friday was a FAIL - which will put me back to zero with my attempt to join the 21 day club dammit!

The range of responses has been very instructive in various different ways, and some tips have been very helpful.

About letting myself get hungry before my next meal, it isn't just my neurotic aversion to letting myself feel needy that drives me: when I under-eat and I'm out on my bike I start to lose vision and become weak and shaky. I suspect I'm approaching fainting. I never let myself actually pass out, but I have to stop, rest and continue very slowly.

It doesn't feel good or safe to let my blood sugar get that low (I assume that is what is happening) - it mightn't matter if I was doing a sedentary job and driving everywhere but cycling demands a fairly high throughput of energy. It may be, over time, I will get better at tapping my fat reserves when my body has used up all the calories from my last meal, I'm hoping that is what will happen.

Graham

[wosnes]

One thing I don't think No-S addresses well is that we all need different amounts of calories. For some folks that may require seconds (either a second plate/bowl or second servings).

I'm a smaller, older, less active woman. I need somewhere between 1300-1500 calories daily and that easily fits on one plate. I'd say you're moderately active. Let's say your ideal weight is 150 lbs. You'd need about 2250 calories daily and that might not fit on one plate or might require that you put more on your plate initially or after you've eaten one plateful.

I think it's possible that no seconds is a rule that might not work well for you. Maybe you should eat what you need at a meal and just concentrate on no snacks and no sweets.

Or, you might consider a small fourth meal. As I've mentioned ad nauseum here, I've read a lot about various traditional diets. Very few eat just 3 meals daily. Many eat 4 and a few eat 5.

I'd worry less about following the rules and more about finding what works for you.

Just my 2¢ worth.

[fb22]

About letting myself get hungry before my next meal, it isn't just my neurotic aversion to letting myself feel needy that drives me: when I under-eat and I'm out on my bike I start to lose vision and become weak and shaky. I suspect I'm approaching fainting. I never let myself actually pass out, but I have to stop, rest and continue very slowly.
Graham

I've done a fair bit of cycling in the past. How long are you riding before you start feeling like this? If it's more than about an hour, you might be "bonking" and starting to run out of blood sugar and burning fat instead. Great for the waist, but feels terrible if you are trying to maintain any kind of pace.

I'd make sure that you're drinking enough water. Drink beyond thirst and make sure you're taking a few sips from your water bottle (you have one right?) every ten minutes or so.

If you are going for a ride that's more than an hour or so, or you know that you're likely to experience the dizziness, then add about 125mL of orange juice (or whatever juice you prefer) per litre with a pinch of salt to your water.

It's essentially a home-made sports drink without the extra cost.

That being said, it's your responsibility to monitor your state and proceed accordingly. I'm not a medical professional.

Cheers!

-Frank

[lbb (Liz)]

I loved this quote above:
"think you're trying to optimize too much at once and looking for all guidance outside of yourself. "
Sometimes I think someone else has better answers than myself. Truly, I know what common sense is, but it's so much more "safe" to be told exactly what to do when.
I am a new "No S"er and it's changing my life.
Can't be grateful enough!
LBB
http://no-s-momma.blogspot.com/